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Stevesixty7
08-01-2017, 20:30
Why do I find PCars more difficult to drive? Both are great games, but I struggle more with PCars. Assetto is supposedly the ultimate driving simulator, but PCars is more difficult in my opinion.

eracerhead
08-01-2017, 22:12
Well it would help to know which part you find particularly difficult. Difficulty in detecting over/understeer, in finding proper brake lockup points, difficulties in setting up online races? There are many facets to games such as these; if you're a little more specific, I know someone can help you leverage pCars strengths according to your needs.

hkraft300
08-01-2017, 22:54
Why do I find PCars more difficult to drive? Both are great games, but I struggle more with PCars. Assetto is supposedly the ultimate driving simulator, but PCars is more difficult in my opinion.

Well Gran Turismo is the Real driving simulator... :p

On a more serious note: could be ffb related.

ashasha
09-01-2017, 00:34
It's easier to drive for me as well. I feel like the feedback through the wheel is more intuitive to me or something and it's nice not having to go and input a dozen or so FFB settings just to drive a different car each time. I can correct mistakes a lot better where as with PCARS if I miss a braking point or an apex it's really punishing.

If the level of immersion and game play in AC was half as good as PCARS it'd be the perfect sim, but even as good as it is for driving there is only so much to do before you get kind of bored. I can't even track my own lap times to compare them to myself outside of a session let alone leaderboards with other people's times. With AC it's fun, but after a few races in PCARS I'm sweating and my heart is beating through my chest.

Dazzling
09-01-2017, 02:18
Project Cars & Gran Turismo are my favorite.
As for Assetto Corsa, well lets say its about to be traded in or use the disc as a cold glass coaster.

guybo
09-01-2017, 10:31
It's the lack of weather that really turns me off AC.

Stevesixty7
09-01-2017, 23:18
I lose the back end of so many cars, even the not so powerful ones, the Ford Escort for example. I owned one of these, and I did lose the back end once on a public road, but I held it.

Sankyo
10-01-2017, 08:01
I lose the back end of so many cars, even the not so powerful ones, the Ford Escort for example. I owned one of these, and I did lose the back end once on a public road, but I held it.
But how fast were you driving in real life vs in the game? Not saying that the game is perfect, but we tend to drive much faster in games due to the lack of sense of speed.

Rickhendrikse
10-01-2017, 19:19
But how fast were you driving in real life vs in the game? Not saying that the game is perfect, but we tend to drive much faster in games due to the lack of sense of speed.

And the fact we can reset on track instead of dying...

Schadows
11-01-2017, 09:55
Are you playing with a gamepad ? pcars default gamepad setting are quite sensible (or should I say simply "badly calibrated"). Most players who enjoy the game with a gamepad had to change the settings in order to find the feeling they are happy with.

wolfscastle
11-01-2017, 15:18
Assetto Corsa is a Real PC Simracer, with all Features for E-Sport, League Racing, and prof.
Streams. Gran Turismo and also pCars 1 can not compare with Assetto Corsa and not measure!

In addition, and since 2014 is known under real simracer, AC has by far the best
Wheel ForceFeedback and Physics. Simply speaking, it is not for "Arcarde-Kids"
or pad driver ... fortunately! Sorry.

Only the graphics and optics is unfortunately a bit "out dated", but that does not
bother most real Simracer. More real content, as facade and exterior effect, that
is the motto at AC.

It would be very desirable, if pcars2 would look at some big things from AC and would
implement! More Sim, Multi League and Stream Tools, Less (Console) Casual Gaming!

Also SORRY! :)

Thats the reason why we drive only on PC! ;)

Start on 51:00


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R37t5Ku4eJI=51m1s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLA4rR-VwOk

cluck
11-01-2017, 16:20
Assetto Corsa is a Real PC Simracer, with all Features for E-Sport, League Racing, and prof.
Streams. Gran Turismo and also pCars 1 can not compare with Assetto Corsa and not measure!

In addition, and since 2014 is known under real simracer, AC has by far the best
Wheel ForceFeedback and Physics. Simply speaking, it is not for "Arcarde-Kids"
or pad driver ... fortunately! Sorry.

Only the graphics and optics is unfortunately a bit "out dated", but that does not
bother most real Simracer. More real content, as facade and exterior effect, that
is the motto at AC.

It would be very desirable, if pcars2 would look at some big things from AC and would
implement! More Sim, Multi League and Stream Tools, Less (Console) Casual Gaming!

Also SORRY! :)I'm glad Project CARS isn't Assetto Corsa because I don't want to be tarred with being a snobbish, elitist 'simracer' thankyouverymuch :nonchalance:

Assetto Corsa does its thing and Project CARS does its thing, why can't people just accept that they are 2 separate games, both designed to allow people to have fun with cars. We can all pick holes in a particular game of course, because no game out there will be ideal for every single person. Find the game that matches what you want most closely and play that.

EDIT : Sorry!*

* not really

Bealdor
11-01-2017, 16:25
Welcome back to the forums Robert... ;)

Konan
11-01-2017, 16:42
236715

Stevesixty7
11-01-2017, 17:42
But how fast were you driving in real life vs in the game? Not saying that the game is perfect, but we tend to drive much faster in games due to the lack of sense of speed.

55-60 mph. A lot of body roll then loss of rear grip, ending up with a tank slapper. I was lucky.

Stevesixty7
11-01-2017, 17:43
Are you playing with a gamepad ? pcars default gamepad setting are quite sensible (or should I say simply "badly calibrated"). Most players who enjoy the game with a gamepad had to change the settings in order to find the feeling they are happy with.

G29 with pedals and shifter mate.

wolfscastle
11-01-2017, 20:57
THX Bealdor! I am very glad to be here again ;-):)

cluck
11-01-2017, 21:46
I'm not :) called Bruce Willis. If I was, I would be busy making a new movie rather than typing on an internet forum

t0daY
12-01-2017, 19:12
Me neither! :D Bruce Willis. I am more Silvester Stallone. Doing some boxing films and stuff you know?

Diamond_Eyes
14-01-2017, 21:22
Project Cars vs Assetto Corsa (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?49683-Project-Cars-vs-Assetto-Corsa/page2)

Very limited choice of tracks (I don't care about laser-scan)
Poor online multiplayer experience for PS4
Guess which title I am talking about....

AC announce they release soon a "Scottish fantasy track" in an attempt to go toe-2-toe (the Boxing Match) with pCars' Bannochbrae.

Hoping pCars2 extending Bannochbrae (at traffic barriers before that village) as this wonderful & fast & scenic road-racing circuit and for the night races

ciao

guybo
17-01-2017, 10:15
@wolfcastle AC is not a sim simply because EVERY* racing series in the world is affected by weather. Sim racers who refuse to race in rain, are not sim racers. "Sims" that have no rain are driving games, not sims. That's not opinion, that's by definition of "simulation". One huge reason I stopped racing online is that most leagues use low damage and no weather which by definition of simulation, disclude those races from being sim racing. Even with full damage every game is much too forgiving and even if rain physics isn't perfect, it is a part of racing and separates a sim from a driving game. AC is a pretty good driving game, but it is far from being a sim- it is the most arcade of all the current major sims out there.








* Don't get me started with nascar- it is not a racing series- it is a motorsports entertainment series much like WWE is to wrestling

hkraft300
17-01-2017, 13:11
Ohhh shhnizzaap!
My buddy runs a league (plus casual races) and in the last 6-7 months I've only once seen him host a race without rain. By accident.
His competition races all have inclement weather.
Sometimes he'll sneak in a cheeky storm slot where the wet tyres are nearly as bad as slicks...

Konan
17-01-2017, 13:28
Ohhh shhnizzaap!
My buddy runs a league (plus casual races) and in the last 6-7 months I've only once seen him host a race without rain. By accident.
His competition races all have inclement weather.
Sometimes he'll sneak in a cheeky storm slot where the wet tyres are nearly as bad as slicks...

That's the way to do it! Kudos to your buddy! :cool:

lancashirelad
17-01-2017, 16:24
@wolfcastle AC is not a sim simply because EVERY* racing series in the world is affected by weather. Sim racers who refuse to race in rain, are not sim racers. "Sims" that have no rain are driving games, not sims. That's not opinion, that's by definition of "simulation". One huge reason I stopped racing online is that most leagues use low damage and no weather which by definition of simulation, disclude those races from being sim racing. Even with full damage every game is much too forgiving and even if rain physics isn't perfect, it is a part of racing and separates a sim from a driving game. AC is a pretty good driving game, but it is far from being a sim- it is the most arcade of all the current major sims out there.








* Don't get me started with nascar- it is not a racing series- it is a motorsports entertainment series much like WWE is to wrestling

When you are driving in an open seater in the rain, do you get your wife/partner to throw a bucket of water over you?

RomKnight
17-01-2017, 16:29
I actually have a FAN for the wind but who cares :D

I also experienced a few times having the daylight fading to night keeping pace with RL through the window in endurance races and ... well, if you're in the zone you don't get wet but you do get the chilly feel... ofc unless the pet comes into play and tumbles the scotch over you then there's some wetness involved too :D

Bealdor
17-01-2017, 16:39
... ofc unless the pet comes into play and tumbles the scotch over you then there's some wetness involved too :D

It's just trying to tell you to not drink and drive...

Haiden
11-02-2017, 14:41
@wolfcastle AC is not a sim simply because EVERY* racing series in the world is affected by weather. Sim racers who refuse to race in rain, are not sim racers. "Sims" that have no rain are driving games, not sims. That's not opinion, that's by definition of "simulation". One huge reason I stopped racing online is that most leagues use low damage and no weather which by definition of simulation, disclude those races from being sim racing. Even with full damage every game is much too forgiving and even if rain physics isn't perfect, it is a part of racing and separates a sim from a driving game. AC is a pretty good driving game, but it is far from being a sim- it is the most arcade of all the current major sims out there.

That must be why AC has a higher community rating than PCars on Steam and other places, and why Project Cars has far less community activity on Race Department's forums and also no league thread in the premium section. Or why it ranks lower than rFactor2 and Dirt Rally in this poll of an 8000+ member group.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/wwsimracers/permalink/1893626834202123/

IMO, PCars is great and probably the best thing on console (I haven't played AC on console, but from what I've seen it's lacking compared to the PC version), but on PC PCars actually feels the most sim-cade to me, excluding titles like Forza and Gran Turismo that consciously lean more toward arcade than sim. AC may not have weather, but they have given their reasons for not adding it, and I believe it has to do with maintain the physics standard that they set. But even so, if weather is your thing, that's still done better in other sim titles.

Pisshead30
11-02-2017, 15:03
I'm glad Project CARS isn't Assetto Corsa because I don't want to be tarred with being a snobbish, elitist 'simracer' thankyouverymuch :nonchalance:

Assetto Corsa does its thing and Project CARS does its thing, why can't people just accept that they are 2 separate games, both designed to allow people to have fun with cars. We can all pick holes in a particular game of course, because no game out there will be ideal for every single person. Find the game that matches what you want most closely and play that.

EDIT : Sorry!*

* not really

As far as i'm concerned every game is different every game has its good points and bad points. The snobbish elitist attitude that occasionally raises its ugly head from the PC gaming community is just so annoying.
Youtube is constantly full of this versus that, just buy the games and play them simple as that lol
I dunno how people can compare forza driveclub need for speed assetto corsa pcars dirt rally wrc etc etc cos theyre all different the only similarity they have is theyre all racing games lol

Pisshead30
11-02-2017, 15:09
G29 with pedals and shifter mate.

I find pcars more difficult than assetto cos I use a pad but hopefully thatll change soon to a t300 gt edition if I get the discussion going on a good day with the wife lol

Konan
11-02-2017, 15:11
I find pcars more difficult than assetto cos I use a pad but hopefully thatll change soon to a t300 gt edition if I get the discussion going on a good day with the wife lol


Been there...done that (mostly to no avail) :cool:

Pisshead30
11-02-2017, 15:29
Been there...done that (mostly to no avail) :cool:

I want PSVR too but I think Ģ700 (wheel and PSVR) on gaming sh1t as she calls it wouldn't got down to well but good news is my step son wants its for Christmas this year so just have to wait a few months.
Might have to bring his ps4 pro into the living room on Christmas day 2017 along with his psvr and try it on the 60" 4k uhd tv I got her last christmas lol

Konan
11-02-2017, 15:32
I usually have to wait until one of my sons systems break down...that way i can say i'll give him mine and i'll buy a new one for myself...unfortunately those systems have become more and more reliable...:(

Pisshead30
11-02-2017, 15:41
We've got a nice collection going now I have my ps1 2 3 4,star wars xbox360 and forza6 xbox1. he has the an old xbox360 and ps4 pro unfortunately hes not into racing games but hopefully my 8mth old boy will cos i sit him on my knee when im racing assetto project cars forza etc lol

David McKenna
11-02-2017, 18:12
We've got a nice collection going now I have my ps1 2 3 4,star wars xbox360 and forza6 xbox1. he has the an old xbox360 and ps4 pro unfortunately hes not into racing games but hopefully my 8mth old boy will cos i sit him on my knee when im racing assetto project cars forza etc lol

I did that with my son, he's now 13 and is so much faster than i ever was

hkraft300
11-02-2017, 21:41
That must be why AC has a higher community rating than PCars on Steam and other places, and why Project Cars has far less community activity on Race Department's forums and also no league thread in the premium section. Or why it ranks lower than rFactor2 and Dirt Rally in this poll of an 8000+ member group.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/wwsimracers/permalink/1893626834202123/

...

Because opinions are like arseholes. Everybody has one :D

None of us are really qualified (or have the tools) to judge what level of SIM these titles are at. They're all too close, too good.
Gameplay, graphics, all the fluffy stuff, on the other hand, sure we can have our preference.
Even ffb: some prefer AC so that's what they play.
For league racing my mates have stuck with pcars because we like the ToD and weather and make full sadistic use of it :)

Haiden
12-02-2017, 14:52
Because opinions are like arseholes. Everybody has one :D

None of us are really qualified (or have the tools) to judge what level of SIM these titles are at. They're all too close, too good.
Gameplay, graphics, all the fluffy stuff, on the other hand, sure we can have our preference.
Even ffb: some prefer AC so that's what they play.
For league racing my mates have stuck with pcars because we like the ToD and weather and make full sadistic use of it :)

Yeah... user polls and ratings don't mean anything. Just people that actually own something stating their opinion on it. What do they know. :confused:

The only qualification you need to state whether you enjoy a product or not is experience with the product you're commenting on. That's it. Nothing else. Yes. It's your opinion, but that's the point, isn't it? Are you more likely to buy the product from a producer with a 1-start rating or 5-star rating? Obviously the latter, because... opinions do matter when it comes to user experience. If it didn't, manufacturers wouldn't do product testing and focus groups, would they? They do those things, because they want opinions from users.

Also, your pithy line about opinions being like arseholes is actually describing/referencing uninformed opinions. You know, like someone giving an opinion about a PC version of game, even though they own the console version. :rolleyes:

Konan
12-02-2017, 15:03
Let's not turn this into the "Haiden vs Hkraft300" thread please guys...

Haiden
12-02-2017, 15:44
You guys really need to relax in this place and let people talk sometimes.

Konan
12-02-2017, 18:16
Agreed...but the atmosphere was getting grimmer though...

hkraft300
12-02-2017, 18:27
Let's not turn this into the "Haiden + Hkraft300" thread please guys...

Fixed.

User opinions mean little for how arcade/real/hardcore a sim is. My best mate, had he played pcars, would've given it 1 star had he even bothered. He likes his Forzas and NFS and... what not. Project Cars and motorsport is not his thing. His opinion on a sim is of no use to us.

Ratings and opinions do matter, but what are they influenced by? What is a user's motivation for giving a title 1 star or 5 star? If pcars and AC are both great sims (means their handling and physics are both convergent towards reality), how's a user giving one 1 star and the other 5?

Someone might be unlucky and get a few ffb bugs and/or invisible wall bugs but have a smooth "user" experience on AC. Or someone else might play pcars on PC with 4k and a mad wheel (with weather/ToD the full fat SMS experience), then play a fresh copy of AC without any mods and think "AC looks/feels old/lacking content". Tables turned!

Some might like the ffb better in AC. Or the sound. The content. Gel with the UI better. I know I'm keen to try some Ferrari's and some tracks pcars doesn't have. Are any of those physics related? Barely. Still has a big influence on the rating. So yes opinions do matter: it'll be the make-or-break, catapult a title to AAA status or relegate it to have a small community cult following.

OT but, judging by the coming of pcars2, at least on console, AC is in trouble.

Konan
12-02-2017, 18:31
...not only AC...:p

lancashirelad
12-02-2017, 19:16
I think i have fallen for my ex wife again Priscilla Carr, I left her months ago because she was doing my head in and a young blonde came along named Alexis Corset.
She had some fancy moves and it just felt perfect. Priscilla would be really nice then all of a sudden throw a wobbly and it was like hitting a brick wall. I spent many happy months with Alexis, things were new and exciting and got even better as time went on as she kept surprising me with new stuff. Then i upgraded my car to a pro version and got a friend to give it some boost and as i was driving it i bumped into my ex. Wow what a difference a few months made,she was stunning to look at and moved like butter off a hot knife. I couldn't take my eyes of her. Don't get me wrong she still does my head in every now and then and i still occasionally see Alexis but the love is back with Priscilla.

Cholton82
12-02-2017, 19:33
I think i have fallen for my ex wife again Priscilla Carr, I left her months ago because she was doing my head in and a young blonde came along named Alexis Corset.
She had some fancy moves and it just felt perfect. Priscilla would be really nice then all of a sudden throw a wobbly and it was like hitting a brick wall. I spent many happy months with Alexis, things were new and exciting and got even better as time went on as she kept surprising me with new stuff. Then i upgraded my car to a pro version and got a friend to give it some boost and as i was driving it i bumped into my ex. Wow what a difference a few months made,she was stunning to look at and moved like butter off a hot knife. I couldn't take my eyes of her. Don't get me wrong she still does my head in every now and then and i still occasionally see Alexis but the love is back with Priscilla.

That was like a Dear Deirdre column ��

Bultaco85
13-02-2017, 10:58
Why do I find PCars more difficult to drive? Both are great games, but I struggle more with PCars. Assetto is supposedly the ultimate driving simulator, but PCars is more difficult in my opinion.



For me, Assetto if by far more demanding.

Bultaco85
13-02-2017, 11:04
I'm glad Project CARS isn't Assetto Corsa because I don't want to be tarred with being a snobbish, elitist 'simracer' thankyouverymuch :nonchalance:

Assetto Corsa does its thing and Project CARS does its thing, why can't people just accept that they are 2 separate games, both designed to allow people to have fun with cars. We can all pick holes in a particular game of course, because no game out there will be ideal for every single person. Find the game that matches what you want most closely and play that.

EDIT : Sorry!*

* not really


I was about to answer him, but you have this amazing ability of doing it so well!

Bultaco85
13-02-2017, 11:07
@wolfcastle AC is not a sim simply because EVERY* racing series in the world is affected by weather. Sim racers who refuse to race in rain, are not sim racers. "Sims" that have no rain are driving games, not sims. That's not opinion, that's by definition of "simulation". One huge reason I stopped racing online is that most leagues use low damage and no weather which by definition of simulation, disclude those races from being sim racing. Even with full damage every game is much too forgiving and even if rain physics isn't perfect, it is a part of racing and separates a sim from a driving game. AC is a pretty good driving game, but it is far from being a sim- it is the most arcade of all the current major sims out there



* Don't get me started with nascar- it is not a racing series- it is a motorsports entertainment series much like WWE is to wrestling




AC is a SIM, despite not having weather.


By your logig, PCARS ISNīT a sim because weather is so badly implemented that we can hardly call it true simulation.... get over the fanboisms man.

ACīs physics trmple on PCARS by the way, get over it.

Bultaco85
13-02-2017, 11:13
That must be why AC has a higher community rating than PCars on Steam and other places, and why Project Cars has far less community activity on Race Department's forums and also no league thread in the premium section. Or why it ranks lower than rFactor2 and Dirt Rally in this poll of an 8000+ member group.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/wwsimracers/permalink/1893626834202123/

IMO, PCars is great and probably the best thing on console (I haven't played AC on console, but from what I've seen it's lacking compared to the PC version), but on PC PCars actually feels the most sim-cade to me, excluding titles like Forza and Gran Turismo that consciously lean more toward arcade than sim. AC may not have weather, but they have given their reasons for not adding it, and I believe it has to do with maintain the physics standard that they set. But even so, if weather is your thing, that's still done better in other sim titles.



Spot on.

Haiden
13-02-2017, 11:17
For me, Assetto if by far more demanding.

PCars is sometimes harder to drive, because the FFB isn't that good. There's that floatiness that leaves you feeling disconnected from the road. Unfortunately, a lot of people thinks it's because of better physics or sometimes, which simply isn't true. AC's braking is much more demanding. You can't go nearly as deep into the corners as you can in PCars, and you can't run down the gears like a madman. You have to slam down the gears pretty insanely to trip a slide in PCars.

Sankyo
13-02-2017, 12:08
ACīs physics trmple on PCARS by the way, get over it.
State opinions as such please, and not as facts. Discussions like these have been here for years and years and every single time it's just opinions, FFB mistaken as physics, zooming in on one issue in game A while neglecting another in game B but using that particular issue to declare simness etc. etc. etc.

Wage your sim wars somewhere else, we don't need it here. Here we compare and discuss based on facts and arguments.

hkraft300
13-02-2017, 14:26
AC is a SIM, despite not having weather.


By your logig, PCARS ISNīT a sim because weather is so badly implemented that we can hardly call it true simulation.... get over the fanboisms man.

ACīs physics trmple on PCARS by the way, get over it.

:hopelessness:

Anyway, have had amazing and intense racing in pcars because of (and especially at 2-3X) tire wear and bad weather.
LMP1 cars range from R18 TDi to the RWD P30, TS040 and Aston DBR1-2. Wildly varying strengths, but when the heavens open up , it comes down to the driver.
Seen drivers fall behind in the dry by 3+ seconds a lap in, then from clever pit strategy, incredible wet driving and tyre management clinch awesome wins and passes.
Adds a special depth and dimension to pcars.
Even the varying levels of bad weather makes for some hairy situations with rain tyres.

Edit: hell I've seen average drivers in LMP2 cars smash quick-ish LMP1 cars online in 1-3 hour races in mixed weather...

guybo
13-02-2017, 17:00
AC is a SIM, despite not having weather.


By your logig, PCARS ISNīT a sim because weather is so badly implemented that we can hardly call it true simulation.... get over the fanboisms man.

ACīs physics trmple on PCARS by the way, get over it.

I've played them both quite a bit. Weather does make the difference (in road racing) between a sim and a game. Sim indicates simulation- a facsimile of real life. Every road racing series has to deal with weather.

Let's see some numbers or other proof that AC's physics are any better than pCars and that the weather is poorly implemented. I've raced a lot of sims with rain and pCars does pretty well even without a drying racing line. But I'm interested in the numbers behind your argument.

Haiden
13-02-2017, 18:20
Simulation: the imitative representation of the functioning of one system or process by means of the functioning of another

A simulation doesn't have to be complete to be considered a simulation. If that were the case, then there would be very few actual sims in this world. :) AC is no less a sim for its lack of whether than PCars is less of a sim for it's lack of a drying physics.

Regarding physics, I don't know about numbers, but I see a lot more high-end and professional level simulators using iRacing or AC, than I do PCars. I assume there's a reason for that. Although, I admit it might not be simply physics related. Still, it's something I wouldn't ignore in a laymen's comparison.

Sankyo
13-02-2017, 19:35
Simulation: the imitative representation of the functioning of one system or process by means of the functioning of another

A simulation doesn't have to be complete to be considered a simulation. If that were the case, then there would be very few actual sims in this world. :) AC is no less a sim for its lack of whether than PCars is less of a sim for it's lack of a drying physics.

Regarding physics, I don't know about numbers, but I see a lot more high-end and professional level simulators using iRacing or AC, than I do PCars. I assume there's a reason for that. Although, I admit it might not be simply physics related. Still, it's something I wouldn't ignore in a laymen's comparison.

iRacing is an online racing platform, for people who want to race against other people in an organized fashion, it's still the best thing out there.
Regarding AC, IMHO it's about personal preference and hype. If you don't know what game to play and you go to a simracing forum where all the self-proclaimed hardcore sim racers tell you AC is the best and pCARS is simcade, you'll probably try it and if it ticks the right boxes for you you're done and won't look further. For most people, AC has the feel that connects easily with what they find immersive and convincing about driving a car around a track.

IcedGT
13-02-2017, 19:44
I have both and prefer project cars.
There's just not enough to do in AC for me, and some of the hot lap/ drift challenges are frustratingly hard to achieve tier one.
I feel immersed in Project Cars, as if I'm actually there. The sounds, the pit chief talking, the weather, amazing stuff.

I've recently come over from gtplanet, and especially appreciate how engaged Ian has been with his customer base.
You just don't find that with developers.

So as long as SMS is turning out products as good as this, I will be there.

Haiden
13-02-2017, 20:04
iRacing is an online racing platform, for people who want to race against other people in an organized fashion, it's still the best thing out there.
Regarding AC, IMHO it's about personal preference and hype. If you don't know what game to play and you go to a simracing forum where all the self-proclaimed hardcore sim racers tell you AC is the best and pCARS is simcade, you'll probably try it and if it ticks the right boxes for you you're done and won't look further. For most people, AC has the feel that connects easily with what they find immersive and convincing about driving a car around a track.

I guess... But iRacing is also used for track practice by professionals. And I know quite a few people that actually started with PCars, loved it, and then tried other titles and decided they liked them better. That's what happened to me. I still enjoy PCars, I just find I prefer the feel of a couple others better, and when I look at my hours played across games on Steam, it's pretty obvious what my go-to's are. I can only speak for myself, but whether it's single or multiplayer, I have more fun racing in AC, and the experience seems/feels more realistic. Personally, I need FFB that feels like the tires are actually connected to the track. I get that in every other title I own. They all handle it differently, but they all feel connected. In that regard, PCars is the exception, and TBH...if did feel connected, I'd be playing it a lot more.

Mahjik
13-02-2017, 20:10
So as long as SMS is turning out products as good as this, I will be there.

You will be extremely pleased when pCARS2 hit shelves then! ;)

Mahjik
13-02-2017, 20:20
I guess... But iRacing is also used for track practice by professionals.

I know this wasn't your entire post, but I wanted to talk about this real quick (since it gets thrown out there a lot). Racers will use whatever sim has the most car/track combinations that they use in real life. There are a lot of racers who race in the US (whether Nascar or IMSA) who use iRacing. It's because they have the largest base of American tracks than any other title out there (American company, hence lot of American tracks). I was in a session many years ago with Ricky Taylor (yes he's just as fast in a sim as he is in real life). There are drivers who compete in European series that use pCARS and other sims since they have a higher concentration of those tracks. And for Nascar, there isn't really anything else but iRacing so there is no competition there.

Most real life drivers know that "sims are sims". They aren't too fussed about trying to determine which one is more realistic than the other. They don't care as none of them compare to the real thing. With that, they focus on what has similar content to what they drive in real life and use the sims to practice being familiar with the track layouts. i.e. just because Verstappen plays F1 2016 from Codemasters doesn't mean playing F1 2016 will make you a real life F1 driver. ;)

Haiden
13-02-2017, 21:49
I know this wasn't your entire post, but I wanted to talk about this real quick (since it gets thrown out there a lot). Racers will use whatever sim has the most car/track combinations that they use in real life. There are a lot of racers who race in the US (whether Nascar or IMSA) who use iRacing. It's because they have the largest base of American tracks than any other title out there (American company, hence lot of American tracks). I was in a session many years ago with Ricky Taylor (yes he's just as fast in a sim as he is in real life). There are drivers who compete in European series that use pCARS and other sims since they have a higher concentration of those tracks. And for Nascar, there isn't really anything else but iRacing so there is no competition there.

Most real life drivers know that "sims are sims". They aren't too fussed about trying to determine which one is more realistic than the other. They don't care as none of them compare to the real thing. With that, they focus on what has similar content to what they drive in real life and use the sims to practice being familiar with the track layouts. i.e. just because Verstappen plays F1 2016 from Codemasters doesn't mean playing F1 2016 will make you a real life F1 driver. ;)

I think you're taking the comment out of context. I know everything you just said, and agree. I was responding to the comment made that "iRacing is an online racing platform, for people who want to race against other people in an organized fashion," and pointing out that it's not just for peopl that want to race online against others.

My comment a little further up is the real point I was making.


Regarding physics, I don't know about numbers, but I see a lot more high-end and professional level simulators using iRacing or AC, than I do PCars. I assume there's a reason for that. Although, I admit it might not be simply physics related. Still, it's something I wouldn't ignore in a laymen's comparison.

I'm not saying there aren't any professional level simulators using PCars, just that I haven't seen many online, and most of the ones I do see are running iRacing, AC, or rFactor.

hkraft300
13-02-2017, 22:02
Does AC have a pro version like rfactor?
I have it on good authority that Jackie Ickx is still kicking about on pcars PS4 :D
There's a race driver (albeit retired) on pcars for you :rolleyes:

MaximusN
13-02-2017, 22:02
Wasn't iRacing 'okay' until you lost the back end? It was when I drove, even basic cars went nigh uncontrollable when I raced(2 full years last of them 2010ish) when over the limit. And AC kind of has the same feeling sometimes. You loose control of a car and think: real cars don't do that or most drivers of those(road)cars would be dead. But realistic=hard simmers love that of course.

And AC also had the exact the opposite; In the beginning the M235i was WAY to easy to drive, assistant free I might add.

I have about 25 years of varying sim experience(I think there aren't many I haven't at least tried for a few days) and I like the core an intentions of Pcars better than any other by a decent amount. Just because it brought life into sim racing. The cars feel alive and under duress, the sound is good, the graphics are really engaging(including, but not limited to day-night and weather). Yeah it has it's flaws, but which sim doesn't? I'm perfectly fine with the physics and can step from Pcars-> rFActor2 ->Automobilista -> AC without having to adjust my driving, so there can't be heaps wrong with it(or in other words any of them).

AC didn't have brake pressure adjustment in the car setup for a long time, how is that sim worthy? I think it was implemented late last year(so basically a few months ago)...

IcedGT
13-02-2017, 23:13
You will be extremely pleased when pCARS2 hit shelves then! ;)

I have absolutely no doubt it will be epic, and will give my little T150 a workout.

Haiden
13-02-2017, 23:26
Wasn't iRacing 'okay' until you lost the back end? It was when I drove, even basic cars went nigh uncontrollable when I raced(2 full years last of them 2010ish) when over the limit. And AC kind of has the same feeling sometimes. You loose control of a car and think: real cars don't do that or most drivers of those(road)cars would be dead. But realistic=hard simmers love that of course.

And AC also had the exact the opposite; In the beginning the M235i was WAY to easy to drive, assistant free I might add.

I have about 25 years of varying sim experience(I think there aren't many I haven't at least tried for a few days) and I like the core an intentions of Pcars better than any other by a decent amount. Just because it brought life into sim racing. The cars feel alive and under duress, the sound is good, the graphics are really engaging(including, but not limited to day-night and weather). Yeah it has it's flaws, but which sim doesn't? I'm perfectly fine with the physics and can step from Pcars-> rFActor2 ->Automobilista -> AC without having to adjust my driving, so there can't be heaps wrong with it(or in other words any of them).

AC didn't have brake pressure adjustment in the car setup for a long time, how is that sim worthy? I think it was implemented late last year(so basically a few months ago)...

RaceRoom doesn't have tire pressure for some reason, but it's still sim worthy. I don't have a problem controlling the backend in iRacing or AC. Some people do when coming from PCar, though. But it's because they're running down the gears to quick. A bad habit they picked up in PCars, because it's too for giving on the downshifting. Personally, I don't think harder to drive = more sim. I find the cars in PCar harder to drive at the limit, because of the disconnected feel. Others don't, so it's just up to what you like. The pretty graphics don't make PCars any better than other titles to me. If graphics were that important, VR would in trouble. AC and RaceRoom are just fine, as far as I'm concerned. rF2's graphics are a little below my bar, though. For me, the most important aspect is the physics and feel. But the immersion factor is also a huge part of it. And what makes great immersion is a little subjective, depending on what you value. PCars just doesn't feel as good to me. It's not bad, and, like I said, I still enjoy it. I just don't feel connected to the ground and that's an issue for me. If they improve that in PCars2, then I'll be playing it a lot more. If not, then none of the other bells and whistles will keep me interested for long.

guybo
13-02-2017, 23:58
I am far from a fanboy of any title. For modern sims, I raced rF2 for several years before I gave up on it, I switched to AC for a while until the awful online problems (and lack of weather) drove me off. I still play AC sometimes, I like the modded tracks it has and I have created a season with my own real life car. The dry physics feels good to me- I know it's close to real life physics in some ways because I can pick up rF2, AC or pCars and just drive without having to learn how to drive each game. A car's a car's a car. With past sims, I had to re-acquaint myself with each game because each game was different because past sims have been unrealistic. That said, my favorite is Race 07 though I gave that up about 5 years ago.

The driving dynamics of pCars is great and is up to the level of the others. But pCars is closer to being a racing sim because it simulates more of the experience of racing. There's more to racing in the rain than just "the physics"- there's knowing when to change tires, the limited view and being able to be easy on the controls. These are all vital elements of driving in the elements. rF2 has the drying line, but has none of the visual elements except spray (that you can turn down to almost off) and has a real problem with slow speed tire grip. pCars isn't perfect (pit stops... ugh), but it is great.

And yes, weather is just THAT important. Ask Felipe Massa.

hkraft300
14-02-2017, 01:07
Ohh the struggle of racing in changing weather is very real in pcars :)

Sankyo
14-02-2017, 07:09
RaceRoom doesn't have tire pressure for some reason, but it's still sim worthy. ...
You hit it square in the face right there. When you read forums like these, declaring something sim or simcade isn't about facts, it's about completely subjective, changeable feelings and criteria to determine what is a sim and what is not. Some ignore the fact of something very basic and important as tire pressure (it determines grip, car reaction, tyre heating, tyre wear to name a few things), others don't care as long as other parts of simulating car behaviour are OK. And for each sim you can find areas in which it lacks and in which it excels. There is nothing factual about what makes a game a simulation or not, it's all arbitrary.

MaximusN
14-02-2017, 07:16
RaceRoom doesn't have tire pressure for some reason, but it's still sim worthy. I don't have a problem controlling the backend in iRacing or AC. Some people do when coming from PCar, though. But it's because they're running down the gears to quick. A bad habit they picked up in PCars, because it's too for giving on the downshifting. Personally, I don't think harder to drive = more sim. I find the cars in PCar harder to drive at the limit, because of the disconnected feel. Others don't, so it's just up to what you like. The pretty graphics don't make PCars any better than other titles to me. If graphics were that important, VR would in trouble. AC and RaceRoom are just fine, as far as I'm concerned. rF2's graphics are a little below my bar, though. For me, the most important aspect is the physics and feel. But the immersion factor is also a huge part of it. And what makes great immersion is a little subjective, depending on what you value. PCars just doesn't feel as good to me. It's not bad, and, like I said, I still enjoy it. I just don't feel connected to the ground and that's an issue for me. If they improve that in PCars2, then I'll be playing it a lot more. If not, then none of the other bells and whistles will keep me interested for long.

Do a virtual moose test in the 1M on cold street tyres in both AC and PCars. Pick a straight drive 80kph(neutral throttle) and jerk to the left of the track and immediately right again. In AC there's a good chance you'll end up in the guard rail, while you're more in control in Pcars.

IMHO what Pcars does is more what a road car should do than AC.

And not being able to feel the car is mostly up to FFB tuning. Apart from understeer I get a LOT of info from the front axle. I can drive a car blind in PCars and still take a turn(on the skidpad ) roughly at the limit.

MaximusN
14-02-2017, 07:28
You hit it square in the face right there. When you read forums like these, declaring something sim or simcade isn't about facts, it's about completely subjective, changeable feelings and criteria to determine what is a sim and what is not. Some ignore the fact of something very basic and important as tire pressure (it determines grip, car reaction, tyre heating, tyre wear to name a few things), others don't care as long as other parts of simulating car behaviour are OK. And for each sim you can find areas in which it lacks and in which it excels. There is nothing factual about what makes a game a simulation or not, it's all arbitrary.

Hear, hear. That's why I try to keep away from these discussions. Literally no sim gets it all right. And won't for a lot of time to come. So it's just about what palette of features people find important. For me it's PCars that delivers a much more complete experience than any other sim to date. And bar rFactor 2 which has a host of it's own problems, I don't feel any sim is better. Heck, if Forza Horizon 3 had (a lot)better physics it would be a sim in my regards too, even though it's not about track racing. Simulating the car is what's important. Not where it's simulated. Or else me driving my own car on the road wouldn't counts a simulation.

Mascot
14-02-2017, 07:30
I've recently returned to Assetto Corsa following the Pro beta performance boost (and after a long hiatus), and there's no doubt that I prefer the driving physics and FFB in AC compared to pCARS. No matter how much fettling I did in pCARS I could never get the tyres to talk to me like they do in AC, especially at (or over) the limit. And this is using the totally default settings in AC. I've heard good things about pCARS 2, about how the cars are more planted and the FFB is more communicative, so it does sound like the slight 'floaty' feel I get from pCARS might now have been addressed.

It's a shame this thread has (edit: HAD. It's now been amended :)) such a confrontational title, as if it's a showdown between the two games with a winner to be declared at the end of it. I've room for both titles in my collection and they coexist quite happily. They can both learn a thing or two from each other.

Haiden
14-02-2017, 12:03
Do a virtual moose test in the 1M on cold street tyres in both AC and PCars. Pick a straight drive 80kph(neutral throttle) and jerk to the left of the track and immediately right again. In AC there's a good chance you'll end up in the guard rail, while you're more in control in Pcars.

IMHO what Pcars does is more what a road car should do than AC.

And not being able to feel the car is mostly up to FFB tuning. Apart from understeer I get a LOT of info from the front axle. I can drive a car blind in PCars and still take a turn(on the skidpad ) roughly at the limit.

You think you should be able to jerk the wheel of a road car left and right at 45-50 mph and not lose grip?

Regarding FFB... I didn't say I couldn't feel the car. I can feel the just fine and know what it's doing. The car/tires just don't feel connected to the ground. There's absolutely nothing wrong with my FFB in PCars. I've done endless tweaking, and tried just about everyone's settings, especially people that claim to have a connected feeling. It's either subjective, or they aren't being honest, because I have yet to find an FFB tune from anyone that makes PCars's FFB feel like AC, R3E, iRacing, or others. Those sims all have slightly different FFB, but the connected feel is present in all of them. It's simply not in PCars. So, maybe it's my word choice, but the feeling I'm looking for (and others, because I'm not the only one that says this) is not there. Countless people have said this, and I find it amazing when people claim that PCars FFb feels like these other titles, because it just doesn't. I'm not talking about the physics. I'm talking about the FFB. It's different. And honestly, IMHO, it just kills the conversation when people claim it's not. Because it's so obviously different. If you like it, fine. There's nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't work for me. But, to me, denying there's a difference is like saying, "That Z4 feels and handles just like that 911." What??? :confused:

Haiden
14-02-2017, 12:06
I've recently returned to Assetto Corsa following the Pro beta performance boost and after a long hiatus, and there's no doubt that I prefer the driving physics and FFB in AC compared to pCARS. No matter how much fettling I did in pCARS I could never get the tyres to talk to me like they do in AC, especially at (or over) the limit. And this is using the totally default settings in AC. I've heard good things about pCARS 2, about how the cars are more planted and the FFB is more communicative, so it does sound like the slight 'floaty' feel I get from pCARS might now have been addressed.

It's a shame this thread has such a confrontational title, as if it's a showdown between the two games with a winner to be declared at the end of it. I've room for both titles in my collection and they coexist quite happily. They can both learn a thing or two from each other.

That was kind of my experience. I left AC for a long while, mostly playing PCars online and AMS and a few others, then came back to AC a couple months ago. It's been my main sim since. I love it. The brake pressure scale was a welcome addition. Not sure if that's why I didn't fall for it back then or not. But I definitely appreciate it now.

Mahjik
14-02-2017, 12:47
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B5MDI-tGFY


You think you should be able to jerk the wheel of a road car left and right at 45-50 mph and not lose grip?

Maybe not a "jerk" of the wheel, but he's referring to the Moose Test like in the above video.

Haiden
14-02-2017, 13:39
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B5MDI-tGFY



Maybe not a "jerk" of the wheel, but he's referring to the Moose Test like in the above video.

That's one car. PCars has a number of cars that don't behave correctly, openly admitted by the devs that there are issues. Should I pick one of those and then judge the entire sim by it?

Mahjik
14-02-2017, 13:50
That's one car. PCars has a number of cars that don't behave correctly, openly admitted by the devs that there are issues. Should I pick one of those and then judge the entire sim by it?

Please quote the person asking for the test. I'm simply explaining what he/she is suggesting.

hkraft300
14-02-2017, 14:02
There is nothing factual about what makes a game a simulation or not, it's all arbitrary.

Oooo I beg to differ.
It's in the code. The maths. The accuracy of the models and the the numbers the physics engine spits out.
Stuff that us consumers don't get to look at (and so have nothing factual, all speculative) but we're all experts just...because!

RomKnight
14-02-2017, 14:08
I tought YT was the major source for physics. Silly me :D

/sarcasm

MaximusN
14-02-2017, 20:00
That's one car. PCars has a number of cars that don't behave correctly, openly admitted by the devs that there are issues. Should I pick one of those and then judge the entire sim by it?

One? It's a decent amount of road cars. I took the 1M because it's in both sims. The 911 Turbo S, Panamera and Cayenne don't feel like they'd fail the test, but the others I tried just now did. I tried a R8 V10, Giulietta, Cayman and SLS(and 1M from previous test). The zig(left) is fine, but when you turn right, you need to countersteer immediately if you don't want to hit the rail. And even then it's hard to catch. With cones it would be crash/spin or hit a lot of cones.

I'm not trying to slay AC, I like it as well, but it's also not the holy grail. If it always was we couldn't be at tyre model 10 by now... It's just that people go out of their way to find flaws(or what they perceive as flaws) in PCars(and tend to be very vocal and almost elitist that their sim is better). Other sims ALL have their own feel so either one of them is perfect or all of them are flawed(too).

Haiden
14-02-2017, 20:25
One? It's a decent amount of road cars. I took the 1M because it's in both sims. The 911 Turbo S, Panamera and Cayenne don't feel like they'd fail the test, but the others I tried just now did. I tried a R8 V10, Giulietta, Cayman and SLS(and 1M from previous test). The zig(left) is fine, but when you turn right, you need to countersteer immediately if you don't want to hit the rail. And even then it's hard to catch. With cones it would be crash/spin or hit a lot of cones.

I'm not trying to slay AC, I like it as well, but it's also not the holy grail. If it always was we couldn't be at tyre model 10 by now... It's just that people go out of their way to find flaws(or what they perceive as flaws) in PCars(and tend to be very vocal and almost elitist that their sim is better). Other sims ALL have their own feel so either one of them is perfect or all of them are flawed(too).

IIRC, PCars had problems with the tire model for road cars, definitely did at launch. People were complaining, and they were told they were wrong, and just didn't know how to drive. Months later, it turned out they were right. Don't know if that's been corrected or not. I don't drive road cars often. But I know PCars also has a few race cars that are questionable. I realize problems exist in all sims. All I said was that I prefer AC. That I do. I prefer it to PCars. I prefer R3E to PCars. And I'd prefer rF2 to PCars if the graphics weren't so substandard. I never said AC was a holy grail, but you bring up a good point AC is on tire model 10. Why? Because they are still supporting it. They are still releasing patches and DLC. PCars has moved on. So what it is, is what is will be.

The few road cars I've driven in AC, I do prefer to PCars. In PCars I hated road cars, and a few other race classes. In AC, I don't mind road cars, and was surprised to find that race cars I hated in PCars, are actually enjoyable in AC. So, we seem to have different opinions. Fine. You prefer PCars, flaws and all. And I prefer AC, flaws and all.

I don't know why the cars fail whatever test you've devised. For one, I don't think the default setups are the same from title to title, and something as simple as fuel load could cause weight distribution to change. All I know is, the ones I've tried don't feel strange to me.

Also worth noting. I've said, numerous times, that I don't have an issue with PCars' physics. The FFB is the reason I prefer other titles to PCars. The disconnected feel is something I just don't like. But please...enjoy if that's your thing. As a WMD member, it obviously is.

MaximusN
14-02-2017, 20:34
But please...enjoy if that's your thing. As a WMD member, it obviously is.

I was in Assetto from the get-go(early acccess) and rFactor 2 too(incl. lifetime subscription). It's not like being a WMD member makes you extra loyal to one product. I read that all over to place, but at least for me that's nonsense. I have them all and wish them all the best. It's in my own best interest.

hkraft300
14-02-2017, 23:07
I don't know why the cars fail whatever test you've devised. For one, I don't think the default setups are the same from title to title, and something as simple as fuel load could cause weight distribution to change. All I know is, the ones I've tried don't feel strange to me.



Bravo.
First time I've heard this brought up and it could be a huge factor.
There's more than a few road cars that would bite you in the moose test without modern stability control, which many of us gleefully switch off in the game!
These Sims are all so advanced, vehicle models so accurate* that setups must play a huge factor. In pcars I couldn't much feel the difference in spring rate (except balance) on a controller. But on the wheel soft v stiff springs make a big difference. Also the damping affects in a big way and can be felt through the ffb and car behaviour.
How does that all play out between Sims?

*some race cars don't have/won't provide data for the model, so the developer makes educated assumptions.

Haiden
14-02-2017, 23:28
I was in Assetto from the get-go(early acccess) and rFactor 2 too(incl. lifetime subscription). It's not like being a WMD member makes you extra loyal to one product. I read that all over to place, but at least for me that's nonsense. I have them all and wish them all the best. It's in my own best interest.

I didn't say extra, but it is a bias factor.


Bravo.
First time I've heard this brought up and it could be a huge factor.
There's more than a few road cars that would bite you in the moose test without modern stability control, which many of us gleefully switch off in the game!
These Sims are all so advanced, vehicle models so accurate* that setups must play a huge factor. In pcars I couldn't much feel the difference in spring rate (except balance) on a controller. But on the wheel soft v stiff springs make a big difference. Also the damping affects in a big way and can be felt through the ffb and car behaviour.
How does that all play out between Sims?

*some race cars don't have/won't provide data for the model, so the developer makes educated assumptions.

Exactly. If testing with default setups, it's a bit apples to oranges. At least, IMO.

MaximusN
15-02-2017, 06:15
I didn't say extra, but it is a bias factor.



Exactly. If testing with default setups, it's a bit apples to oranges. At least, IMO.

If anything, you'd expect me to get bored with a sim after almost 5,5 years(yeez has it been that long?). And seeing good things not make the final cut is the other half of the coin of being involved.

And yeah, could be part setup(which roadcars have much less), but if it's that then your analysis of PCars physics is also diluted by setup differences. To me it boils down to rubber having more realistic drop-off at a higher slip angles than Assetto. That one sometimes reminds me of rFactor 1, which was pretty nice until you were trying to correct a slide.

Haiden
15-02-2017, 11:34
If anything, you'd expect me to get bored with a sim after almost 5,5 years(yeez has it been that long?). And seeing good things not make the final cut is the other half of the coin of being involved.

And yeah, could be part setup(which roadcars have much less), but if it's that then your analysis of PCars physics is also diluted by setup differences. To me it boils down to rubber having more realistic drop-off at a higher slip angles than Assetto. That one sometimes reminds me of rFactor 1, which was pretty nice until you were trying to correct a slide.

I don't recall ever talking about the physics, except to say, "I don't have a problem with PCars' physics." I've said that repeatedly. My problem is with the way the FFB is being communicated. That's where the disconnected feel come from. It's got nothing to do with my FFB settings. I spent many hours tuning and tried settings from everyone. That feeling is always there. And it's what makes PCars feel different from the other sims I own. Lots of people have noted the disconnected feel of PCars' FFB. The strange is, it's still communicative, although a little noisy--extraneous spikes and blips that I don't think are actual relevant. And yes, the spikes and blips are there with whoever's settings I try, so it's not "just my FFB".

IMO, the slip drop off is fine in AC. I can catch a slide way easier in AC, than I can in PCars. And that has nothing to do with the physics. It's the FFB.

Also, a known fact... PCars has little to no progressive weight increase on corner load. It doesn't matter how fast you enter the corner or the turning angle of the wheel. The force ramps up almost instantly, with no progression. And now that I say that, I also have to wonder how you can get realistic drop off with little to no progressive loading, since drop off is actually the second part of the process, requiring a load to scale down from.

I booted up rF2, just to check, because I hadn't played it in a while, but was pretty sure it had better variable weather than PCars. And it does. You can set four slots, but you can also set the probability of rain, as well as humidity levels. So, if weather is so important to realism, I'd assume probability would be an important factor, adding a bit of speculation to the mix. If rF2 updates it's graphics engine, which I've heard rumors that that upgrade is coming, then I'd be playing that more than AC, and would probably never touch PCars again.

Mahjik
15-02-2017, 13:12
IIRC, PCars had problems with the tire model for road cars, definitely did at launch. People were complaining, and they were told they were wrong, and just didn't know how to drive. Months later, it turned out they were right. Don't know if that's been corrected or not.

I'm going to correct this post so misinformation doesn't continue to be spread.

No, there was never anything wrong with "street cars". There is a documented issue with the Audi R8 street car, but that is the only one. What you are recalling is when SMS introduced their flash heating model in a patch. The flash heating system applied more heat to the surface of tires when there is too much scrubbing and/or sliding (as in real life). The issue that happened is that given the way the gamepad implementation was done for pCARS1, it cause most gamepad users to overheat the tires very quickly.

Now, this is a real life "thing" as to how tires work. However, SMS choose to defer it's implementation until they have better gamepad support (i.e. expect something similar in pCARS2). In short, it wasn't a defect but rather not the choice to introduce a large change in the tire model after the product was released. This is also why they have backed down from doing other large scale changes after release as those types of changes could have negative impact on a users perception of the product.

BTW, it wasn't just street cars that change affected.

hkraft300
15-02-2017, 13:39
I thought there was an update with some street car tyres before the patch 6 controversy. Though the update could be irrelevant to what we're discussing here.
CBF digging it up through the patch release notes so I could be wrong.
Never mind.
Would very much like to see a probability scale of some sort added to the random weather system. It'd be great to set some random slots where one won't be a race-ending thunderstorm or heavy fog situation...
We have a work-around for that though, in league races. If enough drivers + director calls it, lead car becomes safety car for the period :)
RF2 isn't on console so shush :p
How are the AC dlc looking for console? Keen on the red pack before cars2 is out lol

Mahjik
15-02-2017, 13:56
I thought there was an update with some street car tyres before the patch 6 controversy. Though the update could be irrelevant to what we're discussing here.

There is one more which got introduced with the Stanceworks DLC. There are specific tires that are on some of the street cars which have an over tendency to flat spot and go into a weird physics state. There are videos of that with the BMW 1M Stanceworks on the forum.

Haiden
15-02-2017, 14:35
I thought there was an update with some street car tyres before the patch 6 controversy. Though the update could be irrelevant to what we're discussing here.
CBF digging it up through the patch release notes so I could be wrong.
Never mind.
Would very much like to see a probability scale of some sort added to the random weather system. It'd be great to set some random slots where one won't be a race-ending thunderstorm or heavy fog situation...
We have a work-around for that though, in league races. If enough drivers + director calls it, lead car becomes safety car for the period :)
RF2 isn't on console so shush :p
How are the AC dlc looking for console? Keen on the red pack before cars2 is out lol


I'm going to correct this post so misinformation doesn't continue to be spread.

No, there was never anything wrong with "street cars". There is a documented issue with the Audi R8 street car, but that is the only one. What you are recalling is when SMS introduced their flash heating model in a patch. The flash heating system applied more heat to the surface of tires when there is too much scrubbing and/or sliding (as in real life). The issue that happened is that given the way the gamepad implementation was done for pCARS1, it cause most gamepad users to overheat the tires very quickly.

Now, this is a real life "thing" as to how tires work. However, SMS choose to defer it's implementation until they have better gamepad support (i.e. expect something similar in pCARS2). In short, it wasn't a defect but rather not the choice to introduce a large change in the tire model after the product was released. This is also why they have backed down from doing other large scale changes after release as those types of changes could have negative impact on a users perception of the product.

BTW, it wasn't just street cars that change affected.


There is one more which got introduced with the Stanceworks DLC. There are specific tires that are on some of the street cars which have an over tendency to flat spot and go into a weird physics state. There are videos of that with the BMW 1M Stanceworks on the forum.

I'm not talking about the Flash model issue. That came late in the game. Around the initial launch people complained about the road cars. Something to do with the tire model. I don't remember exactly what it was, because I don't drive road cars. But what I remember is a lot of forum conversation--complaints from users. And the standard response was pretty much, "You just need to learn how to drive. You're used to sim-cade and must be doing something wrong. A month or two later, I remember reading that there was indeed something a little off with the tire model, and that it was to be corrected in the next patch. Again, I don't know the specifics and I'm not digging through two year old threads. But I know I read those comments.

Haiden
15-02-2017, 14:46
How are the AC dlc looking for console? Keen on the red pack before cars2 is out lol

I don't know about console, but I heard the Red 3 was just released. It was great on PC. I really liked the Porsche pack. Not all the cars are my cup of tea, but each pack had a few I really enjoy and made each pack worth it. They also added a new free track in their latest update, along with more model improvements. That's what I like about AC. They are still working to improve the title. No physics model is ever perfect, which is why I like that they are constantly improving it, making it better and better. PCars on the other hand, stopped working on 1 and moved on to 2--no more DLC, patches, or model improvements. I understand the logic and arguments given, but, at least to me, it just suggests that there were deep issues with PCars1, so deep that the title couldn't be evolved and, instead, had to be rebuilt--salvaging the good and reworking the bad. I don't even think that's something that can be denied, because SMS admitted that some of the bugs and issues couldn't be resolved because they were too deep in the code.

Mahjik
15-02-2017, 14:54
I'm not talking about the Flash model issue. That came late in the game. Around the initial launch people complained about the road cars. Something to do with the tire model. I don't remember exactly what it was, because I don't drive road cars. But what I remember is a lot of forum conversation--complaints from users. And the standard response was pretty much, "You just need to learn how to drive. You're used to sim-cade and must be doing something wrong. A month or two later, I remember reading that there was indeed something a little off with the tire model, and that it was to be corrected in the next patch. Again, I don't know the specifics and I'm not digging through two year old threads. But I know I read those comments.

There were several minor changes over patches 1.x-6.x for tires (street and race tires), but nothing major like the flash heating change. You can read the changes but I can tell you that you are confusing the flash heating issue.

Mascot
15-02-2017, 15:02
How are the AC dlc looking for console? Keen on the red pack before cars2 is out lol

I'm still smarting from missing the Ģ12 Season Pass from the PSN sale a few weeks ago. It's back up to Ģ25 now.

Sum Dixon-Ear
15-02-2017, 15:25
Luckily, Mrs Ear bought me the SP last night as an early birthday pressie!

Haiden
15-02-2017, 15:54
There were several minor changes over patches 1.x-6.x for tires (street and race tires), but nothing major like the flash heating change. You can read the changes but I can tell you that you are confusing the flash heating issue.

What??? You can tell me that, but you'd be dead wrong. Because I can tell you that I'm not. One, I remember the Flash issue, and that came after the issue I'm talking about, way after. Two, the Flash issue wasn't just road cars. And that's another reason I know for a fact that I'm not confusing them, because the Flash issue did affect me. I was actually sad SMS ended up reverting on that one. The other issue didn't affect me at all, because I don't drive road cars, and I read about it well before the Flash issue. I don't know how big or small the road car issue was. I just know that I read the complaints, the denials, and then the admission. I know this, because I'm not stupid and don't need someone telling me what they know I know. I also recall the same issue--regarding the road cars (complaint, denial, and then admission)--being referenced later in another thread about devs and WMD members often not listening to people and being too quick to assert people are wrong or just don't understand. The road car model issue came up then as an example, and others seems to remember it just fine, even agreeing with its use as an example.

Anyway...it doesn't matter. Believe/know what you want. I know what I read and am not looking for your confirmation or agreement. And I don't mean that rudely. It's just the plain truth.

Haiden
15-02-2017, 16:36
Also, coincidentally, this was posted in one of my sim communities a few hours ago.

"Hey guys! Can someone explain to me why some games doesn't have day/night and dry/rain transitions? 😳
I talk mostly about iracing and assetto corsa. 12 years ago and even further back games like GTR or le mans 24h or GP3 could make quite successfully dry weather and rain transition and even day/night... Where is the problem in present racing simulations with that?"

First response was spot on. After talking about AC and iRacings' technical development reasons for not having it, he goes on to say...

"Another thing tho is that the day/night transition will be tied to physics so temps etc. will change depending on time of the day. Also as they have surface model they have things like sun warming up another part of the track more than other that is under shadows etc. which all makes it a bit more complex than what it is in any sims we've seen so far, still it's ridiculous to not have it in game in 2017, really hope that will be their priority #1 after dirt is released.

Then rain, the way we've seen wet weather modeled so far in sims like rF2 or PCars I think it's pretty pointless to have it at all as it doesn't work at all like wet weather works irl. The puddles doesn't form where they should, there's no proper aquaplaning, the track only dries from the tyres (no engine heat etc.) in rF2 I think even sun doesn't make it dry faster. When all that can be done with decent accuracy wet weather will make some sense and is worth putting into a sim."

Admittedly, AC could and should implement time transitions. But as he points out, it complicated, and I'm not sure PCars is even addressing some of the realism issues he identifies. But when it comes to rain, his point is especially valid. Current implementations of rain are just novelty and are still a far cry away from simulating realism. Are they fun to have? Sure. But given everything they lack, it's not the "sim-qualifying" element some make it out to be. Neither rF2 or PCars addresses these issues. And puddling would probably be best implemented on laser scanned tracks for realism regarding size and location.

Mascot
15-02-2017, 16:42
Luckily, Mrs Ear bought me the SP last night as an early birthday pressie!

Well played Sir. Worth Ģ25?

Mahjik
15-02-2017, 16:54
Then rain, the way we've seen wet weather modeled so far in sims like rF2 or PCars I think it's pretty pointless to have it at all as it doesn't work at all like wet weather works irl. The puddles doesn't form where they should, there's no proper aquaplaning, the track only dries from the tyres (no engine heat etc.) in rF2 I think even sun doesn't make it dry faster. When all that can be done with decent accuracy wet weather will make some sense and is worth putting into a sim."

All of that is in pCARS2...

Sum Dixon-Ear
15-02-2017, 16:56
Well played Sir. Worth Ģ25?

Well... you see... just because I have it doesn't actually mean I get to try it...

Mahjik
15-02-2017, 17:04
After talking about AC and iRacings' technical development reasons for not having it, he goes on to say...


I also want to point out, that is one of the biggest cop out post I've seen in a while. "You can't do everything so don't do anything at all". If that were really the case, every racing game would be Mario Kart and we wouldn't bother with sim racing at all. No sim to date can properly simulate 4 tires "fully" all at the same time. Manufactures use banks of computing processing to simulate a single tire for their testing and you believe we get the same level of simulation with graphics, input control, sound processing, AI, etc on consumer based hardware? Heck no...

Suggesting that it's a "gimmick" or that "if you can't do it in it's entirety then it's not worth it" just pure BS and a full on cop out trying to suggest those that are doing it are using it as a gimmick.

MaximusN
15-02-2017, 17:17
I also want to point out, that is one of the biggest cop out post I've seen in a while. "You can't do everything so don't do anything at all". If that were really the case, every racing game would be Mario Kart and we wouldn't bother with sim racing at all. No sim to date can properly simulate 4 tires "fully" all at the same time. Manufactures use banks of computing processing to simulate a single tire for their testing and you believe we get the same level of simulation with graphics, input control, sound processing, AI, etc on consumer based hardware? Heck no...

Suggesting that it's a "gimmick" or that "if you can't do it in it's entirety then it's not worth it" just pure BS and a full on cop out trying to suggest those that are doing it are using it as a gimmick.
Indeed that's like saying if you can't simulate aero on a cfd level real time, don't do drag and downforce. Or if you can't simulate an entire engine including components don't do engine damage. Same reason would be not to apply tyre wear. Why do sims even simulate temperature? Surely air temp varies in an area as big as a circuit. And a track part that's in the shade has a much lower temperature(guesstimate 20 degrees Celsius difgference is feasible) than in the sun on a hot day in Italy.

Heck why even bother try to simulate a racecar, much to complex. ;)

RomKnight
15-02-2017, 17:29
I missed the days where graphics were for arcade/simcade games. Things were so much simpler then. One would just run shoe boxes on semi decent physics (and really bad FFB) but it was the best experience in the world :D

simracing has come a long way though and for me, everything that keeps me immersed and behaves decent enough is good for me. Actually, it's excelent because every sim does it better than my minimum really :D But I have to say in this sense that SMS has been pioneer for quite a long time now and it kind of pisses me off seing someone wnating to push things forward being taken down (or so some try). History is full of examples and yet we seem to not learn :(

That being said, some do things better than others, others have just more than others but at no time, one feature should be used as an excuse to exclude or include a game in a sim/simcade/arcade category just because it might not be perfect (no sim is to begin with anyway)

PS: well, unless it is the "sands of time" feature. This just does not have a place in any game (skills MATTER) :p

Haiden
15-02-2017, 18:03
All of that is in pCARS2...

I hope so. But forgive me, if I need to see it to believe it. And, like I said before, I just want the FFB to feel connected. If they can solve that issue, I'll put many hours into PCars. If they can't, then I doubt the other bells and whistles will keep me in it for long. If it doesn't feel right, the other stuff just doesn't matter. That's just me.


I also want to point out, that is one of the biggest cop out post I've seen in a while. "You can't do everything so don't do anything at all". If that were really the case, every racing game would be Mario Kart and we wouldn't bother with sim racing at all. No sim to date can properly simulate 4 tires "fully" all at the same time. Manufactures use banks of computing processing to simulate a single tire for their testing and you believe we get the same level of simulation with graphics, input control, sound processing, AI, etc on consumer based hardware? Heck no...

Suggesting that it's a "gimmick" or that "if you can't do it in it's entirety then it's not worth it" just pure BS and a full on cop out trying to suggest those that are doing it are using it as a gimmick.

I don't subscribe to the if you can't do everything, you should do it at all theory. I only shared the quote in response to the many previous comments about how some sims aren't sim-worthy because they lack weather transitions and therefore are realistic. The shared the quote to point out that even the sims that do have weather transitions aren't necessarily realistic. The comment about it being pointless is the speaker's opinion.

Mahjik
15-02-2017, 19:18
I hope so. But forgive me, if I need to see it to believe it. And, like I said before, I just want the FFB to feel connected. If they can solve that issue, I'll put many hours into PCars. If they can't, then I doubt the other bells and whistles will keep me in it for long. If it doesn't feel right, the other stuff just doesn't matter. That's just me.

Not every sim is for everyone. I could tell you all the bells and whistles pCARS2 will have, but that doesn't mean you'll like it. It could check every box out there, but that doesn't mean you'll like it. No one is asking you to like it. No one is asking you to like pCARS1. Every sim is good in their own ways and it just great to be a sim driver at this point in time (it wasn't long ago where there weren't any sims but rF1 around).



I don't subscribe to the if you can't do everything, you should do it at all theory. I only shared the quote in response to the many previous comments about how some sims aren't sim-worthy because they lack weather transitions and therefore are realistic. The shared the quote to point out that even the sims that do have weather transitions aren't necessarily realistic. The comment about it being pointless is the speaker's opinion.

It's a straw man argument (that person's post). However, people view "simulation" in different lights.. Some view if you have no changing weather (i.e. it's always sunny), it's not a sim. Some view if you have no tire pressures, it's not a sim. Some view, if the driving feels right "to me", it's sim.

Technically, by definition, any driving title is a "simulation". The differences will be solely how well one simulates as opposed to another.

Human_bean
15-02-2017, 22:08
Assetto Corsa is superior to Project Cars in almost every way when it comes to what matters in a simulator. The main things Project Cars does better is graphics and weather.

It will be interesting to see if those flaws are fixed in Project Cars 2.

Haiden
15-02-2017, 22:43
Not every sim is for everyone. I could tell you all the bells and whistles pCARS2 will have, but that doesn't mean you'll like it. It could check every box out there, but that doesn't mean you'll like it. No one is asking you to like it. No one is asking you to like pCARS1. Every sim is good in their own ways and it just great to be a sim driver at this point in time (it wasn't long ago where there weren't any sims but rF1 around).




It's a straw man argument (that person's post). However, people view "simulation" in different lights.. Some view if you have no changing weather (i.e. it's always sunny), it's not a sim. Some view if you have no tire pressures, it's not a sim. Some view, if the driving feels right "to me", it's sim.

Technically, by definition, any driving title is a "simulation". The differences will be solely how well one simulates as opposed to another.

I understand it's subjective. I just find it interesting that, outside of these forums, there seems to be far more support for and engagement with AC than PCars. And in the overall sphere, PCars isn't that popular. If you disagree, then direct me to multi-title community where that isn't case. If there is one, I haven't seen it.

I just watched a video the other day of a head to head comparison of the V2, CSL, and TS-PC Racer by SimPit. At the start he explained the test perameters, and said to keep it short, he was only going to test them on the only two sims that mattered, AC and iRacing. Now, granted that might be little harsh, but that seems to be the prevailing thought in the larger sim community. Not the only thought/opinion, but definitely the one I see most. I even see more people supporting old rF2, with its outdated graphics, although I admit, I suspect that has more to do with those people running antiquated hardware that can't support anything else, than a genuine preference for rF2 over more modern titles. But when it comes to AC and iRacing, PCars falls behind in engagement.

Looks at multiplayer. There's more activity on AC, and less carnage. There are still idiots, but I don't have nearly as much trouble as I do in PCars.

So yes, it's subjective. But overall, my experience has been better in AC.

Stevesixty7
15-02-2017, 23:38
I haven't been around for a while. I'm surprised with some opinions, but don't get me wrong, these are two great games, each with their own strengths. This wasn't for arguments, this was for personal opinion and feed back. I thank everyone who has posted, some made me think a little more actually. I'll continue to support both games in the future.

Sum Dixon-Ear
15-02-2017, 23:53
The main things Project Cars does better are graphics and weather, framerate, track count, car count, wheel support, private lobbies and app support...
FTFY bud.

Human_bean
16-02-2017, 00:50
FTFY bud.



framerate is locked at 60fps on the ps4pro with boost mode. so it's not an issue for me anymore.

track and car count means nothing if the ffb is inconsistent and subpar compared to AC.

wheel support is nice and all but i personally only use 1 wheel.

private lobbies ARE:yes: nice, but again if its not as enjoyable to play, than i personally don't care.

app support for what? An app to go through each individual car to try and attempt to make it feel like the superior ffb in AC?



That's why i said the MAIN things, not ALL things. But thanks anyway.

Mahjik
16-02-2017, 03:50
Not the only thought/opinion, but definitely the one I see most. I even see more people supporting old rF2, with its outdated graphics, although I admit, I suspect that has more to do with those people running antiquated hardware that can't support anything else, than a genuine preference for rF2 over more modern titles. But when it comes to AC and iRacing, PCars falls behind in engagement.

IMO, it has to do with pCARS having more offline players. You can't do offline with iRacing since there is no AI. Let's face it, no one buys rF2 to play it offline. AC is in the middle but it's the same (i.e. people are mostly hot lapping or online play). It's no secret that pCARS1's focus was single player. We can see from the information provided that mutliplayer is getting a lot more attention in pCARS2. With offline single player games in general, you don't see much posting/communities unless there are problems.

Ian and company know how to run a company and what they need to focus on and when. There is a reason they sold as many copies as they did.

hkraft300
16-02-2017, 03:54
app support for what? An app to go through each individual car to try and attempt to make it feel like the superior ffb in AC?

:applause:

Does AC do private MP lobbies on console? If not, how's that go for leagues or even racing friends on console?

guybo
16-02-2017, 09:47
I understand it's subjective. I just find it interesting that, outside of these forums, there seems to be far more support for and engagement with AC than PCars. And in the overall sphere, PCars isn't that popular. If you disagree, then direct me to multi-title community where that isn't case.


There's raw numbers.

https://www.gtplanet.net/assetto-corsa-has-sold-over-1-4-million-copies/

AC 1.4 M copies, pCars 2 M sold. AC has been out longer too. The MP in both is terrible so I only play offline, I think there's a lot of single player only sim racers out there because obviously most of these people aren't playing online.

Sankyo
16-02-2017, 10:38
Assetto Corsa is superior to Project Cars in almost every way when it comes to what matters in a simulator to me personally.
FTFY

Haiden
16-02-2017, 11:22
IMO, it has to do with pCARS having more offline players. You can't do offline with iRacing since there is no AI. Let's face it, no one buys rF2 to play it offline. AC is in the middle but it's the same (i.e. people are mostly hot lapping or online play). It's no secret that pCARS1's focus was single player. We can see from the information provided that mutliplayer is getting a lot more attention in pCARS2. With offline single player games in general, you don't see much posting/communities unless there are problems.

Ian and company know how to run a company and what they need to focus on and when. There is a reason they sold as many copies as they did.


There's raw numbers.

https://www.gtplanet.net/assetto-corsa-has-sold-over-1-4-million-copies/

AC 1.4 M copies, pCars 2 M sold. AC has been out longer too. The MP in both is terrible so I only play offline, I think there's a lot of single player only sim racers out there because obviously most of these people aren't playing online.

Sales are based on marketing, especially initial sales. There was a lot of hype around PCar1. But I'm talking after sale engagement. There was also a lot of disappointment with PCars1, and lasted much longer than the usual initial hype fade. And the fact that PCars sold 2M, against AC's 1.4 only speaks to my point. Why with more sales, does PCars have less community engagement, two years later--less league play and less MP servers running in general, and less recognition from sim enthusiasts? Numbers don't lie. But you have to look at the right numbers. Sales are marketing related. Engagement is measured elsewhere and by other things. And engagement isn't just MP. Single player racers also participate in forum communities, as evident from the above comment. Yet, for some reason, PCars has less community engagement in every multi-title community I've been in. So, it may have sold 2M copies, but how many of those people are still playing? They aren't in MP, and they aren't in the sim communities. And the ones that are in the sim community seem to prefer other games to PCars, often saying..."I don't play as much as AC or iRacing." or simply voting other titles higher in polls and comments.

Also, the MP in AC is much better than PCars. The drivers alone are better and cleaner. And, there's like 10 times more servers. So I don't understand the "MP in both is terrible." I have clean races all the time in AC. Are there idiots out there? Sure. But I get far less ramming in had braking zones, and I don't have to deal with twitchy pad drivers. They're out there, and if I pay attention, I can tell a pad driver from wheel driver. But they aren't twitching like jumping beans like they do in PCars, so you can actually overtake them and even go wheel to wheel for a bit. There are no cars flipping upside down on the track at the start. There are no cars getting 3 second jump starts at the start. There are no land mines. And I'm sure there's more, if I thought about it. So if you think the MP is terrible in both, it seems it's uber-terrible in PCars, because AC doesn't have any of the issues I just stated. Let's not even talk about the difference in server browsers...LOL

Edit: Also... regarding sales. PCars released on three platforms. AC was only on one, until recently. That makes a difference. But, again, after sales engagement is an indicator of product satisfaction. Sales just tell you who bought the hype.

MaximusN
16-02-2017, 13:07
Sales are not popularity you're right about that, but:

popularity is also not a measure for a good sim or even wider: product.

Also people are sheeple, so if they believe place A is the place to be they will flock to it and attract others with that(being a multiplayer game only adds to that greatly). People were very vocal in shouting all kinds of(unfounded) crap about Pcars(and the other way around, simmers are pretty nasty people by my book, it's not a fun community at times).

Simracers are weird people anyway. Let's say there were two sims with the exact same physics base(including the actual implementation of cars and tracks), but no identical cars to compare between the two. One has state of the art graphics, a slick interface and extra's the other one doesn't, but all the stuff they do share are of the exact same quality(bar graphics). My guess is that a decent amount of simracers would chose the one that's less slick as a better sim(not game mind you). Simracers are kind of brought up in a crude=good way. I love that Pcars broke that mold, but I'm sure it's still working against it.

Haiden
16-02-2017, 14:12
Sales are not popularity you're right about that, but:

popularity is also not a measure for a good sim or even wider: product.

Also people are sheeple, so if they believe place A is the place to be they will flock to it and attract others with that(being a multiplayer game only adds to that greatly). People were very vocal in shouting all kinds of(unfounded) crap about Pcars(and the other way around, simmers are pretty nasty people by my book, it's not a fun community at times).

Simracers are weird people anyway. Let's say there were two sims with the exact same physics base(including the actual implementation of cars and tracks), but no identical cars to compare between the two. One has state of the art graphics, a slick interface and extra's the other one doesn't, but all the stuff they do share are of the exact same quality(bar graphics). My guess is that a decent amount of simracers would chose the one that's less slick as a better sim(not game mind you). Simracers are kind of brought up in a crude=good way. I love that Pcars broke that mold, but I'm sure it's still working against it.

True. But engagement isn't based on popularity. Engagement is one of the truest measures of product satisfaction. Basically, you use the things you like more than the things you don't. I was a marketing professional for 20+ years. I understand the psychology behind measure product satisfaction. Polls are popularity based. They aren't the best measure, but they do provide insight, which if confirmed/supported by engagement adds more value/weight to their results.

As far as people flocking to the "places to be", that's why I specifically said multi-title communities. Places where all titles are represented. And in those multi-title communities, PCars doesn't have the same level of engagement or activity as AC and others. But if you want to believe that all these people are just misguided sheeple, then that's fine; we're both entitled to our opinions. But if I, or any other consultant was doing a study on the two sims. It'd be foolish of me to tell my client that PCars and AC had the same level of satisfaction and engagement, when just about everything I see online, speaks to the contrary.

Also...to be honest, at 4K, cranked to Ultra, I don't see much difference in the graphics between AC and PCars, overall. PCars might be a little slicker, but the poor anti-aliasing, shimmers, and strange cockpit exposures (too dark or too light) makes me prefer AC. Even R3E isn't far enough off to matter, when cranked to ultra. But I think some of the reason people tend to vote the low graphic titles like rF2 higher in terms of sim, is because they're on older systems that lack the processing and graphic power to really enjoy the more modern titles. And, for many of them, it's easier to blame the game than admit they have antiquated hardware.

Sum Dixon-Ear
16-02-2017, 16:05
.....at 4K, cranked to Ultra, I don't see much difference in the graphics between AC and PCars.....

This discussion is in the PS4 subforum... the difference on console is massive, the graphics in the mirrors honestly look like something from Geoff Crammond's GP2.

Peggy11
16-02-2017, 16:17
the graphics in the mirrors honestly look like something from Geoff Crammond's GP2.

Haha, this made me chuckle. Thanks Sum ;)

Haiden
16-02-2017, 17:49
This discussion is in the PS4 subforum... the difference on console is massive, the graphics in the mirrors honestly look like something from Geoff Crammond's GP2.

On PC, I have a GTX 1080 and still turn the Enhanced Mirror option off, because I think it's a waste of resources. All I need to know is that there's a car behind me, and be able to tell what kind of car it is and what the driver's doing. I don't need ultra graphics in the mirrors. But that's just me. Some people do care. But consoles aren't as powerful, and I'm sure that's why the scaled down the mirrors.

Stil... That doesn't change anything I said about AC having more community and MP engagement than PCars.

Sum Dixon-Ear
16-02-2017, 18:18
Stil... That doesn't change anything I said about AC having more community and MP engagement than PCars.

Again, in my experience, on PS4.. it is the polar opposite. Nobody I know races AC at all online due to there only being public lobbies... everyone races pCARS, everyone.

And thanks, I do understand why certain things are scaled back on consoles... but see the example below, that is on a current gen console (it's not even the worst example). The game even needs the full power of the Pro to run at a decent framerate. There's scaled back, but that just looks like coloured mud.

236989

Haiden
16-02-2017, 18:55
Again, in my experience, on PS4.. it is the polar opposite. Nobody I know races AC at all online due to there only being public lobbies... everyone races pCARS, everyone.

And thanks, I do understand why certain things are scaled back on consoles... but see the example below, that is on a current gen console (it's not even the worst example). The game even needs the full power of the Pro to run at a decent framerate. There's scaled back, but that just looks like coloured mud.

Gameplay wise, I can only comment on PC. In fact, that all I'm really talking about. When I was console, AC wasn't out and PCars was the best there was, and that was all I played. When I switched to PC, that's when PCars started sliding down the list on my enjoyment scale. If you're on console, I totally understand why you like it more. From what I've heard, the console version of AC often doesn't even sound like the same game as the PC version.

Sum Dixon-Ear
16-02-2017, 19:21
AC on console is a great simulator, the FFB is wonderful, probably the best I've ever felt (yes, that even includes Monster Truck Madness :cool: )... but everyone I know buys racing titles.. to race... online... against similarly minded folk. But on AC, as of now, there are only tragic public lobbies, plus the presets for wheels are a joke, you can't even map buttons to look around, adjust the car on-the-fly, engage KERS etc.. just awful.

The career is a humdrum rollout of quick races and hotlaps, so that gets very boring, very quickly. Yes you can set up race weekends (again gets grating very quickly), but pCARS has a career that is engaging, progressive, dynamic and just downright entertaining.

In my opinion AC, as a driving simulator on the PS4 Boost enabled Pro, is very good... probably the pick of the bunch... but in every other department pCARS wins hands down.

AC for driving :yes: - pCARS for racing :yes:

Haiden
16-02-2017, 20:37
AC on console is a great simulator, the FFB is wonderful, probably the best I've ever felt (yes, that even includes Monster Truck Madness :cool: )... but everyone I know buys racing titles.. to race... online... against similarly minded folk. But on AC, as of now, there are only tragic public lobbies, plus the presets for wheels are a joke, you can't even map buttons to look around, adjust the car on-the-fly, engage KERS etc.. just awful.

The career is a humdrum rollout of quick races and hotlaps, so that gets very boring, very quickly. Yes you can set up race weekends (again gets grating very quickly), but pCARS has a career that is engaging, progressive, dynamic and just downright entertaining.

In my opinion AC, as a driving simulator on the PS4 Boost enabled Pro, is very good... probably the pick of the bunch... but in every other department pCARS wins hands down.

AC for driving :yes: - pCARS for racing :yes:

Sucks to be on console, then. On PC, PCars only has a few good lobbies. And they are all too often riddled with crashers and idiots. But there are few recurring servers with good hosts. But AC on PC has lots of lobbies running. It's a different method, though. The servers don't rotate tracks, so if you want a change, you have to go to another server. But... that's also why there's less crashing and idiots. On PCars the host changes the server often, and people stay, even though they don't know the track well. That causes problems. AC also allows the host to limit the cars used in each class, so you don't end up with half the grid being Z4 or whatever. That also forces drivers to deal with cars that aren't their first choice if there any slots left. Also, there aren't any pit stop bugs that I know of. If I go in for softs, I get softs. And again, I have yet to see a car bouncing up and down and flipping over on the starting line. I also haven't been rear ended as soon as the light turns green with the force of someone that was accelerating for 20 meters.

AC PC has a different career system, and the higher tiers are challenging and set. You can shorten the race, and 80% difficulty is the lowest you can go. Once your done, you can go online and download new career series, or create your own custom series (and have multiple series running at the same time). PCars' career gets old real quick, because it's scripted. It's always gonna rain for the same races, at the same time. Over and over again.

Sum Dixon-Ear
16-02-2017, 21:07
Racing on console certainly doesn't suck for me, I've been thoroughly enjoying it for years now. Been racing with the same lads since Forza 3 days and tbh I would stick with them in Console Peasantland over moving back to PC unless I absolutely had no choice in the matter.

I honestly don't know why you are on a console subforum waxing lyrical about a PC version of a game that nobody in this section plays. I'm glad that the game is great on PC, but on console it's not.. the discussion here is about comparing the two games on the PS4 platform... and, for me at least, AC is found wanting in nearly every department. That doesn't suck.. it's just not a very good port, I have pCARS.. which is excellent, so I'm quite happy.

As for the two games' career modes (on console!)... pCARS has so much more to offer... pit strategies, loads of tracks, a weather system (yes, it's sripted), progression through various series and invitationals and a feeling that you are actually involved. Assetto has none of that, none at all... very few circuits, very quick races and it's very sunny... the end.

Haiden
16-02-2017, 21:55
This is where the conversation wound too. I'm not waxing about anything. Enjoy your game. I'm sure it's great.

Stevesixty7
16-02-2017, 22:45
This is where the conversation wound too. I'm not waxing about anything. Enjoy your game. I'm sure it's great.

We raced together on PCars Haiden. No one is after an argument, it's purely opinion. You're a good guy, I hope we get to race together again.

Mascot
17-02-2017, 06:27
I've said it before but it's not an either/or argument between pCARS and AC for me. Both coexist quite happily in my collection, and both fill gaps that the other one leaves.

It's just that AC has more gaps to fill than pCARS. :)

Give me the overall structure, options, graphics and ambition of pCARS with AC's driving model, FFB & audio and I'd be a happy bunny. Luckily for me, that sounds exactly what pCARS 2 might very well be.

Sankyo
17-02-2017, 06:35
Give me the overall structure, options, graphics and ambition of pCARS with AC's driving model, FFB & audio and I'd be a happy bunny. Luckily for me, that sounds exactly what pCARS 2 might very well be.
What do you mean with "AC's driving model"?

Mascot
17-02-2017, 07:17
What do you mean with "AC's driving model"?

That intangible 'feel' I guess, for want of a better word. One of being planted, of rolling rubber on tarmac, of knowing what the tyres are doing, of sensing grip levels and knowing when you are on the edge and about to exceed it. pCARS feels 'right' but AC feels 'more right' somehow. And that's using totally default settings in AC - I haven't adjusted a single variable, not one.

Maybe pCARS was a victim of its own complexity, but no matter how much fettling I've done over the past 20-odd months I could never get it 'feeling' quite right. It's tied directly to FFB but goes way beyond that. The cars talk to me in pCARS, but they mumble. In Assetto Corsa I can have intelligent, articulate conversations with them.

Hope that makes sense. It's a fairly abstract and highly subjective sensation, and quite difficult to describe.

Sankyo
17-02-2017, 07:40
That intangible 'feel' I guess, for want of a better word. One of being planted, of rolling rubber on tarmac, of knowing what the tyres are doing, of sensing grip levels and knowing when you are on the edge and about to exceed it. pCARS feels 'right' but AC feels 'more right' somehow. And that's using totally default settings in AC - I haven't adjusted a single variable, not one.

Maybe pCARS was a victim of its own complexity, but no matter how much fettling I've done over the past 20-odd months I could never get it 'feeling' quite right. It's tied directly to FFB but goes way beyond that. The cars talk to me in pCARS, but they mumble. In Assetto Corsa I can have intelligent, articulate conversations with them.

Hope that makes sense. It's a fairly abstract and highly subjective sensation, and quite difficult to describe.
I think I understand, though I do think that 'driving model' is the wrong word as it suggests something in the simulation part, in the code. What you're describing sounds mostly like a combination of FFB, visual and audio clues to me? You say that it goes beyond FFB, but I don't see (yet) how anything else than haptic, visual and audio clues can convey what's going on in the code.

I do recognize your description, though, except that I never liked AC's FFB. In pCARS I have had different levels of connectedness with the cars, and for me it was almost all in the FFB. I also see that certain visual clues help a lot, and now with pC2's improvements I also, um, see that audio plays a very important role :)

Mascot
17-02-2017, 07:53
I think I understand, though I do think that 'driving model' is the wrong word as it suggests something in the simulation part, in the code. What you're describing sounds mostly like a combination of FFB, visual and audio clues to me? You say that it goes beyond FFB, but I don't see (yet) how anything else than haptic, visual and audio clues can convey what's going on in the code.

I do recognize your description, though, except that I never liked AC's FFB. In pCARS I have had different levels of connectedness with the cars, and for me it was almost all in the FFB. I also see that certain visual clues help a lot, and now with pC2's improvements I also, um, see that audio plays a very important role :)

It is a highly subjective topic. I'd love to try other people's wheels and setups because some swear they get more feedback from pCARS than they do in AC, but we all might be talking about different things.

Your comment about audio is interesting. I guess you're hinting at the full spatial directionally-accurate surround sound in pCARS 2, with (for example) individual tyre squeal coming from all four corners of the car? This has been mentioned by Ian (or maybe The_American) in the GTP Q&A. Very exciting stuff.

Sum Dixon-Ear
17-02-2017, 08:02
.....I never liked AC's FFB. In pCARS I have had different levels of connectedness with the cars, and for me it was almost all in the FFB.....

I agree with Mascot, the FFB (feeling of weight transfer/tyres/different surfaces etc) in AC is sublime... far better than I can try to 'dial' into pCARS, and that's without needing to tweak the, grantedly simplistic in comparison, settings at all.

Would you care to share your pCARS FFB settings with me as I would love to try them out for myself!

Sankyo
17-02-2017, 09:26
I agree with Mascot, the FFB (feeling of weight transfer/tyres/different surfaces etc) in AC is sublime... far better than I can try to 'dial' into pCARS, and that's without needing to tweak the, grantedly simplistic in comparison, settings at all.

Would you care to share your pCARS FFB settings with me as I would love to try them out for myself!
Do PC settings translate to PS4 1:1?

Sum Dixon-Ear
17-02-2017, 09:32
That, I do not know... perhaps the differences between the two platforms are at the crux of the issue between our FFB experiences...

I'd still love to try them, if you don't mind.

konnos
17-02-2017, 09:40
Why with more sales, does PCars have less community engagement, two years later--less league play and less MP servers running in general, and less recognition from sim enthusiasts? Numbers don't lie. But you have to look at the right numbers. Sales are marketing related. Engagement is measured elsewhere and by other things. And engagement isn't just MP. Single player racers also participate in forum communities, as evident from the above comment. Yet, for some reason, PCars has less community engagement in every multi-title community I've been in. So, it may have sold 2M copies, but how many of those people are still playing? They aren't in MP, and they aren't in the sim communities. And the ones that are in the sim community seem to prefer other games to PCars, often saying..."I don't play as much as AC or iRacing." or simply voting other titles higher in polls and comments.

Also don't forget that a lot of people have been having a lot of issues with online. FFB loss at race start, stuck in pit, losing rank after qualifying was over, stronger ffb at race start, per-car settings getting lost on that session, replays getting borked if someone dced, wonky sounds and car control at replays and when viewing other people drive, losing position upon race finish, wrong tyres upon exiting pits. There are so many of these things, that even if one or two of these issues happened to to 1-2 players in a league race everytime, soon people will get fed up and move on to the next sim that is reliable and supports after-race statistics very easily, with little work for the organiser. This is the reason most leagues stopped racing at PCARS, the physics were not quite the reason.

And by the way I agree with you on the floaty feeling. It has been there since the beginning, this vague feeling of sensing that your tyres are not quite connected to the road, by now I am almost certain it is either "baked-in" from development, or is just a trait of the PCARS tyre model. In my opinion, this is the ONLY thing that other sims are managing to do consistently, give you the feeling of connected driving at all times. PCARS is lacking there, but I can't put my finger on it, I don't have the knowledge to do so. What PCARS does very nicely in that department is give you hints on tyre grip at the edge and that "grip lost and grip regained" feeling. Also in AC, brakes can be a pain, if you don't have a good pair of brake pedals with some sort of warning or a load cell. It's a guessing game and not by feel. I m not saying it's better or worse, but even with the lowest delta in AC lock-ups are a danger, a little exaggerated if you ask me.

Sankyo
17-02-2017, 09:40
That, I do not know... perhaps the differences between the two platforms are at the crux of the issue between our FFB experiences...

I'd still love to try them, if you don't mind.

Can't promise anything, haven't played pC1 for a long time so need to find again the combination that feels good for me and gaming time is very limited for me these days...

Sankyo
17-02-2017, 09:48
And by the way I agree with you on the floaty feeling. It has been there since the beginning, this vague feeling of sensing that your tyres are not quite connected to the road, by now I am almost certain it is either "baked-in" from development, or is just a trait of the PCARS tyre model. In my opinion, this is the ONLY thing that other sims are managing to do consistently, give you the feeling of connected driving at all times. PCARS is lacking there, but I can't put my finger on it, I don't have the knowledge to do so. ...
Road feeling in other sims is a 'canned' force or something hugely amplified. In pCARS, because of how the FFB model works, picking up forces through the steering rack, many things will not be felt especially when tracks are in essence smooth with only large-scale undulations. Even in case of a rough surface, it may not be communicated through the steering rack and therefore not be felt in pC1's system.

Sum Dixon-Ear
17-02-2017, 09:58
.....haven't played pC1 for a long time.....

That's because you've switched over to playing Assetto Corsa all the time, isn't it.... :eek: :p ;)

Sankyo
17-02-2017, 10:00
That's because you've switched over to playing Assetto Corsa all the time, isn't it.... :eek: :p ;)

Definitely. On mobile phone :)

Mascot
17-02-2017, 10:14
Road feeling in other sims is a 'canned' force or something hugely amplified. In pCARS, because of how the FFB model works, picking up forces through the steering rack, many things will not be felt especially when tracks are in essence smooth with only large-scale undulations. Even in case of a rough surface, it may not be communicated through the steering rack and therefore not be felt in pC1's system.

But better in PC2, yes..?

Sankyo
17-02-2017, 10:18
But better in PC2, yes..?
Much.

morpwr
17-02-2017, 10:44
Do PC settings translate to PS4 1:1?

Yes mine did when I switched to pc. Just the wheel profile strength becomes the game ffb master.

MaximusN
17-02-2017, 11:01
Much.

I sincerely hope it's still possible to get only forces from the steering column/front wheels? I don't want artificial SOP or other things. Specifically I don't want the wheel to tell me things a real car steering wheel doesn't. It's exactly what I love about PCars FFB and find distracting in some other sims. The steering wheel FFB should not be used as an aid(as in help you in a way it shouldn't) IMHO.

could_do_better
17-02-2017, 11:50
And we wonder why FFB is so controversial. Who would be a developer trying to please all of the people! (not a dig at either opinion just an observation from 2 posts on the same page)



I sincerely hope it's still possible to get only forces from the steering column/front wheels? I don't want artificial SOP or other things. Specifically I don't want the wheel to tell me things a real car steering wheel doesn't. It's exactly what I love about PCars FFB and find distracting in some other sims. The steering wheel FFB should not be used as an aid(as in help you in a way it shouldn't) IMHO.



And by the way I agree with you on the floaty feeling. It has been there since the beginning, this vague feeling of sensing that your tyres are not quite connected to the road, by now I am almost certain it is either "baked-in" from development, or is just a trait of the PCARS tyre model. In my opinion, this is the ONLY thing that other sims are managing to do consistently, give you the feeling of connected driving at all times. PCARS is lacking there, but I can't put my finger on it, I don't have the knowledge to do so. What PCARS does very nicely in that department is give you hints on tyre grip at the edge and that "grip lost and grip regained" feeling. Also in AC, brakes can be a pain, if you don't have a good pair of brake pedals with some sort of warning or a load cell. It's a guessing game and not by feel. I m not saying it's better or worse, but even with the lowest delta in AC lock-ups are a danger, a little exaggerated if you ask me.

hkraft300
17-02-2017, 11:54
I sincerely hope it's still possible to get only forces from the steering column/front wheels? I don't want artificial SOP or other things. Specifically I don't want the wheel to tell me things a real car steering wheel doesn't. It's exactly what I love about PCars FFB and find distracting in some other sims. The steering wheel FFB should not be used as an aid(as in help you in a way it shouldn't) IMHO.

Hoping for the same. SoP and other signals confuse my brain. Tried some SoP settings and once forgot to switch it off (one of the LMP 2 cars have it by default) and the wheel felt heavy and weird.
Plus the lowly G29 just gets overwhelmed.
Back to the "connected" feel, is it possibly a result of laser scan and car setup?
I can most definitely (and I think it's amazing how it's even possible) feel damping changes in pcars. Soften it up and feels "comfortable" and settled (using Jussi's calculator of course) or stiffen it up and cars feel more "energetic". Is it similar in AC? Could it be (Haiden or Mascot mentioned it earlier) a car setup thing and not entirely ffb?

RomKnight
17-02-2017, 12:38
Some tracks are smoother than others so I don't want the same feel on all the tracks. Same way like some kerbs are flat others are like seesaw (which is amazing how many fail to see this kind of stuff).

Same way I don't expect all the cars have the same feedback. And this is an issue that is (it looks like to me) way overlooked. Almost looks like everyone want's the cars to behave and feel like they're GT3 and this simply is not true. I've even seen some saying road acrs behave weird and floaty... yeah, they are compared to racing machines :D

But I do agree that we need a "connection" feel to the road, i'm just saying not all cars feel THAT connected and we can't/should not expect such thing. Just to make a point, aren't DTM cars that have a light for when the wheels are locking because drivers can't feel that ?

MaximusN
17-02-2017, 13:20
And we wonder why FFB is so controversial. Who would be a developer trying to please all of the people! (not a dig at either opinion just an observation from 2 posts on the same page)

I know, that's why I said it. PCars FFB is not perfect, but some feedback that people feel that's missing shouldn't be there. IIRC when AC was in early access when asked they specifically said there was no kerb feel because you wouldn't feel a wheels up and down movement from the steering rack. They added it in to please the community(that's why it's on a separate slider I think). That's not the whole story of course, because a kerb can also try to pull the wheel in one direction(which you would feel), but in general I think people overstate what they think a wheel transmits to the driver because they get the feeling from elsewhere in their real car. And that's feedback I don't want from my wheel. That should be reserved for buttkickers, motionplatforms and such.

Sankyo
17-02-2017, 13:27
I sincerely hope it's still possible to get only forces from the steering column/front wheels? I don't want artificial SOP or other things. Specifically I don't want the wheel to tell me things a real car steering wheel doesn't. It's exactly what I love about PCars FFB and find distracting in some other sims. The steering wheel FFB should not be used as an aid(as in help you in a way it shouldn't) IMHO.
Don't worry :) Accessibility is much better in pC2, but everything you could do in pC1 you can still do in pC2 (plus much more). As Ian stated, there are a couple of presets, which you can change to your liking with only a few mouse clicks to cover a wide range of 'feels', but if you want to go mad you can still tweak every little thing of the FFB.

Haiden
17-02-2017, 13:43
That intangible 'feel' I guess, for want of a better word. One of being planted, of rolling rubber on tarmac, of knowing what the tyres are doing, of sensing grip levels and knowing when you are on the edge and about to exceed it. pCARS feels 'right' but AC feels 'more right' somehow. And that's using totally default settings in AC - I haven't adjusted a single variable, not one.

Maybe pCARS was a victim of its own complexity, but no matter how much fettling I've done over the past 20-odd months I could never get it 'feeling' quite right. It's tied directly to FFB but goes way beyond that. The cars talk to me in pCARS, but they mumble. In Assetto Corsa I can have intelligent, articulate conversations with them.

Hope that makes sense. It's a fairly abstract and highly subjective sensation, and quite difficult to describe.


I think I understand, though I do think that 'driving model' is the wrong word as it suggests something in the simulation part, in the code. What you're describing sounds mostly like a combination of FFB, visual and audio clues to me? You say that it goes beyond FFB, but I don't see (yet) how anything else than haptic, visual and audio clues can convey what's going on in the code.

I do recognize your description, though, except that I never liked AC's FFB. In pCARS I have had different levels of connectedness with the cars, and for me it was almost all in the FFB. I also see that certain visual clues help a lot, and now with pC2's improvements I also, um, see that audio plays a very important role :)


It is a highly subjective topic. I'd love to try other people's wheels and setups because some swear they get more feedback from pCARS than they do in AC, but we all might be talking about different things.

Your comment about audio is interesting. I guess you're hinting at the full spatial directionally-accurate surround sound in pCARS 2, with (for example) individual tyre squeal coming from all four corners of the car? This has been mentioned by Ian (or maybe The_American) in the GTP Q&A. Very exciting stuff.


I agree with Mascot, the FFB (feeling of weight transfer/tyres/different surfaces etc) in AC is sublime... far better than I can try to 'dial' into pCARS, and that's without needing to tweak the, grantedly simplistic in comparison, settings at all.

Would you care to share your pCARS FFB settings with me as I would love to try them out for myself!

This is the disconnected feel I've been talking about. For me, sound isn't a part of it. Because when I doing comparisons a while back and tuning FFB in PCars, I actually drove laps without the sound for that very reason. You can get a much better feel for the FFB without sound, and your brain will focus more on the feel with less stimuli coming from other places. And like Mascot, I've tried everyone's settings that claimed, they had the connected/planted feel, but they all came up short in that area. So I think it's a little a mixing of terms. But I do find it interesting that people that have tried both titles, seem to be unable to feel the difference. Whether you call it connected, planted, rolling rubber or whatever, there's a distinct difference in the FFB feeling between PCars and AC.

Mahjik
17-02-2017, 13:52
Whether you call it connected, planted, rolling rubber or whatever, there's a distinct difference in the FFB feeling between PCars and AC.

I don't think anyone ever disputed that. There was a decision made during the pCARS1 development to only allow steering rack forces. Later, some SoP was added in but that was basically it. The majority at the time wanted raw steering forces with no canned forces added in (i.e. RealFeel). AC originally had a similar implementation, but as mentioned above, they ended up adding in some non-steering rack forces. This is what you are missing in the pCARS1 FFB.

Haiden
17-02-2017, 14:01
Also don't forget that a lot of people have been having a lot of issues with online. FFB loss at race start, stuck in pit, losing rank after qualifying was over, stronger ffb at race start, per-car settings getting lost on that session, replays getting borked if someone dced, wonky sounds and car control at replays and when viewing other people drive, losing position upon race finish, wrong tyres upon exiting pits. There are so many of these things, that even if one or two of these issues happened to to 1-2 players in a league race everytime, soon people will get fed up and move on to the next sim that is reliable and supports after-race statistics very easily, with little work for the organiser. This is the reason most leagues stopped racing at PCARS, the physics were not quite the reason.

And by the way I agree with you on the floaty feeling. It has been there since the beginning, this vague feeling of sensing that your tyres are not quite connected to the road, by now I am almost certain it is either "baked-in" from development, or is just a trait of the PCARS tyre model. In my opinion, this is the ONLY thing that other sims are managing to do consistently, give you the feeling of connected driving at all times. PCARS is lacking there, but I can't put my finger on it, I don't have the knowledge to do so. What PCARS does very nicely in that department is give you hints on tyre grip at the edge and that "grip lost and grip regained" feeling. Also in AC, brakes can be a pain, if you don't have a good pair of brake pedals with some sort of warning or a load cell. It's a guessing game and not by feel. I m not saying it's better or worse, but even with the lowest delta in AC lock-ups are a danger, a little exaggerated if you ask me.

As I've said before, the physics in PCars is fine. What ruins it for me are... one, all the things bugginess you mentioned above that just make the MP experience terribly frustrating. Spending time qualifying, just to get stuck in the pits at race time, or find your FFB got corrupted when the race loaded and know feels like you've got a cup of sand in the motor at every corner. It's just too much of a hassle. But the floaty feel is what makes even single player less attractive than other titles, to me. I love the features--weather, time, etc--but not feeling connected to the road is more important to me. Then there's also issues like, being restricted to one setup per track. It's just too hard for me to enjoy PCars, in comparison to other titles. There's too much work and tolerance required, IMO.


Road feeling in other sims is a 'canned' force or something hugely amplified. In pCARS, because of how the FFB model works, picking up forces through the steering rack, many things will not be felt especially when tracks are in essence smooth with only large-scale undulations. Even in case of a rough surface, it may not be communicated through the steering rack and therefore not be felt in pC1's system.

We're not talking about road feel, at least I'm not. I'm talking about feeling like my tires are connected to the tarmac. Even on smooth tracks, there's a feeling of being planted in other titles that is missing from PCars. I don't know whether it's canned or not, but it's something that a lot of people want to feel. I've always though that this pure approach with no canned effects was probably part of PCars' issue with FFB feel. I get the desire to eliminate canned effects. But given the limitations involved with simulating a real complex steering rack with belt or gear driven hardware, IMO, a mixed approach would be much better, sprinkling in a few canned effects to cover the gaps. Just make it an options, so the purist can have their pure feel, but people that want to feel like they're on the ground can have that too. Again, most other sims allow you to control the mix of canned effects. To me, that makes sense, given the varying personal preferences of sim racers.

Haiden
17-02-2017, 14:02
I don't think anyone ever disputed that. There was a decision made during the pCARS1 development to only allow steering rack forces. Later, some SoP was added in but that was basically it. The majority at the time wanted raw steering forces with no canned forces added in (i.e. RealFeel). AC originally had a similar implementation, but as mentioned above, they ended up adding in some non-steering rack forces. This is what you are missing in the pCARS1 FFB.

IMHO, that was a very good decision. Curious as to what prompted the change. I hope PCars2 reconsiders the pure/raw approach, or at least provides another option.

konnos
17-02-2017, 16:37
Again, the feeling I described is not FFB related. It feels like it is a part of the tyre performance, I can get road noise just fine with the right settings on more bumpy tracks, that is not my problem at all. I have done some tests with no FFB forces just to ease my mind, the slidey behaviour is there for my senses. I still love it and is my go-to choice for hotlaps or races, but I know that the feeling is there and it's not there in AC or AMS and whatnot. I m not blaming anyone here, but it is what it is, eagerly waiting for PCARS2 on that department.

morpwr
17-02-2017, 17:21
Again, the feeling I described is not FFB related. It feels like it is a part of the tyre performance, I can get road noise just fine with the right settings on more bumpy tracks, that is not my problem at all. I have done some tests with no FFB forces just to ease my mind, the slidey behaviour is there for my senses. I still love it and is my go-to choice for hotlaps or races, but I know that the feeling is there and it's not there in AC or AMS and whatnot. I m not blaming anyone here, but it is what it is, eagerly waiting for PCARS2 on that department.

perfectly said...

MaximusN
17-02-2017, 18:14
Again, the feeling I described is not FFB related. It feels like it is a part of the tyre performance, I can get road noise just fine with the right settings on more bumpy tracks, that is not my problem at all. I have done some tests with no FFB forces just to ease my mind, the slidey behaviour is there for my senses. I still love it and is my go-to choice for hotlaps or races, but I know that the feeling is there and it's not there in AC or AMS and whatnot. I m not blaming anyone here, but it is what it is, eagerly waiting for PCARS2 on that department.

Any car 'slides' through a corner because of the slipangle as you might know, especially when driven hard. In a corner the tyres are always at an angle to the road. If I google a bit F1 cars have peek grip at about 5-6 degrees(road cars (a lot) more).

Now it might be that PCars overdoes it, but I've got the feeling others are at least also underdoing it. IMHO Pcars's got 'steering with your right foot' quite well dialed in and it's better than not having it.

Haiden
17-02-2017, 19:08
Any car 'slides' through a corner because of the slipangle as you might know, especially when driven hard. In a corner the tyres are always at an angle to the road. If I google a bit F1 cars have peek grip at about 5-6 degrees(road cars (a lot) more).

Now it might be that PCars overdoes it, but I've got the feeling others are at least also underdoing it. IMHO Pcars's got 'steering with your right foot' quite well dialed in and it's better than not having it.

I honestly don't know why people think this is some user issue. So many people say the exact same thing about the floaty feel. I find it odd that people can't feel the difference between PCars and other sims, when it seems so obvious to others. If it doesn't bother you, that's one thing. But it definitely there or missing, depending on how you look at it.

It's not slip angle. The floaty feeling is always there regardless of the degree of the turning angle. The feeling is there even when the car isn't sliding through the corner, because you don't have to drive the car hard to feel it. There's simply something different about PCars. If it was what you say, and others were underdoing it, then they're all underdoing it, because PCars is the only title I've played that feels this way.

And I'm sorry but I have to disagree. I think throttle and lift-off oversteer are much easier to control and use in other sims. R3E is probably one of the best, IMO. I think one of the reasons for this is the connected feel that's missing from PCars.

Sampo
17-02-2017, 20:19
Could it be how the camera is moving?

morpwr
17-02-2017, 21:01
Any car 'slides' through a corner because of the slipangle as you might know, especially when driven hard. In a corner the tyres are always at an angle to the road. If I google a bit F1 cars have peek grip at about 5-6 degrees(road cars (a lot) more).

Now it might be that PCars overdoes it, but I've got the feeling others are at least also underdoing it. IMHO Pcars's got 'steering with your right foot' quite well dialed in and it's better than not having it.


It has nothing to do with driving with your right foot or slip angles. Ive had the same exact feeling with 2 different wheels and numerous setups. Its like the car isn't connected to the road and all the ffb is artificial even though pcars does a good job with most of the things it can reproduce. Certain cars its a lot more obvious but it always there. As for driving with your right foot id have to agree with Haiden r3e and ac especially after this last update feel much more natural when driving with the throttle. You can feel it feel it in the steering wheel of a real car when the rearend is getting close to stepping out on you and you don't need sop for that. I think this is one of the things that floating feeling in the game screws up.Granted at this point pcars is what it is and all we can do is hope pcars 2 gets rid of this feeling because its really the biggest thing that stops me from wanting to play it above ac and r3e.

blowfishrulez
17-02-2017, 22:12
Could it be how the camera is moving?

Thanks, this is the first post in this thread that points to a measurable, evident and logical base difference between different simulators. All that chatting about 'road feel', 'floatiness'....'muh ffb is superior' is complete snake oil and doesn't bring the discussion of tangible differences between the games forward. So what is the difference in the driving cameras and how does it affect a humans perception of car movements, projected to a 2D surface?

Haiden
17-02-2017, 23:52
Thanks, this is the first post in this thread that points to a measurable, evident and logical base difference between different simulators. All that chatting about 'road feel', 'floatiness'....'muh ffb is superior' is complete snake oil and doesn't bring the discussion of tangible differences between the games forward. So what is the difference in the driving cameras and how does it affect a humans perception of car movements, projected to a 2D surface?

Except it's not the issue. It isn't an issue with the perception of the car's movement. Most of the time the throttle and braking steering adjustments are so minor the camera is view isn't even moving. Also, I feel it in the wheel. I can feel the grip getting behind the tires or the subtle slip. And it feels different than it does in PCars. Sorry if the adjectives people use are quantifiable or measurable enough for you. But there are lot of people that seem to know exactly what that's describing and feel the same way. But, honestly, I'm not surprised that you brush it off as chattiness. That's basically been the attitude of a lot WMD members since the game launched. If it's not a bee knees compliment, it's just silly chatter, right? That's why so many people left.

MaximusN
18-02-2017, 00:01
It has nothing to do with driving with your right foot or slip angles. Ive had the same exact feeling with 2 different wheels and numerous setups. Its like the car isn't connected to the road and all the ffb is artificial even though pcars does a good job with most of the things it can reproduce. Certain cars its a lot more obvious but it always there. As for driving with your right foot id have to agree with Haiden r3e and ac especially after this last update feel much more natural when driving with the throttle. You can feel it feel it in the steering wheel of a real car when the rearend is getting close to stepping out on you and you don't need sop for that. I think this is one of the things that floating feeling in the game screws up.Granted at this point pcars is what it is and all we can do is hope pcars 2 gets rid of this feeling because its really the biggest thing that stops me from wanting to play it above ac and r3e.

Just a question. What do you feel when you dab the brakes(no locking wheels) in a corner in AC? I feel exactly nothing... If you do feel anything, could you post your AC FFB settings(I have a T500rs)? I don't want to slag of AC or anything(I want it to be good too), but with my current dial-in Pcars feels so much more alive FFB-wise. That close to stepping out, I don't feel it in AC, maybe if I set slip FFB higher, but I hate the feeling of my wheel shaking when I light up the rear wheels. I never drove an RWD that did that... For comparison, for me rFActor 2 feels more like Pcars, but admittedly a bit better(without any large amount of tweaking). AC, not so much. So for me as it stands now, if Studio 397 does what they promised it's AC that's getting the boot, certainly not PCars(until 2 arrives that is).


I must say the sound of the tyres is much more communiticating in AC, but I'm one of those racers that uses sight and feel, not ears. It's great that it's there, but for me it's atmosphere. I know for a fact other racers uses that almost as primary sense(those can drive without FFB I absolutely can not), so maybe that's the feedback you guys are also missing?

But all in all our experiences are so vastly different I think we might have some (at least FFB) setup differences in our sims. Because as said, for me the FFB is rFactor 2>Pcars>AC. And for ease of use rFactor 2 wins hands down, because I didn;t tune anythin at all. Only thing I really hate is that it sets my TM control panel rotation to 540 or whatever it wants and it leaves it after the game quits.

To start: what helped for me is using Jack's tweakers(less curbs 66% one) lowered the SOP(I have a python script for multiplying parameters for a whole directory), and most important, I changed the FCM values I got. I raised the scoop reduction by .10 (originally at .55, now at .65)

Human_bean
18-02-2017, 02:04
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5tUiZosnA4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI45Rfjkhec

blowfishrulez
18-02-2017, 02:20
Except it's not the issue. It isn't an issue with the perception of the car's movement. Most of the time the throttle and braking steering adjustments are so minor the camera is view isn't even moving. Also, I feel it in the wheel. I can feel the grip getting behind the tires or the subtle slip. And it feels different than it does in PCars. Sorry if the adjectives people use are quantifiable or measurable enough for you. But there are lot of people that seem to know exactly what that's describing and feel the same way. But, honestly, I'm not surprised that you brush it off as chattiness. That's basically been the attitude of a lot WMD members since the game launched. If it's not a bee knees compliment, it's just silly chatter, right? That's why so many people left.

All I'm saying is that anything related to ffb totally subjective, as we can see in this thread. It is not objective to say that the AC FFB is 'better' or PCARS FFB is 'closer to a real steering rack'. It only produces confrontation. Same goes for straw man arguments like 'so many people left'. I also reject the accusation of having an 'attitude' towards people criticizing the game.

The fact is that every FFB system generates a signal to control a motor, which has the ability to deliver a stronger or less strong constant force as well as torque inversions. Forces are modified in a way that resembles a real car, in all Simulations out there. The modulation of the forces changes from car to car, from chassis to chassis and even more so from sim to sim. And they all do a 'proper' job of conveying what the tires and the inertia of the vehicle is doing. Everything that goes beyond that is personal taste and learned behavior. It does not bring the discussion forward.

The feeling of 'being connected to the road' emerges if there are no contradictions between what one sees one the screen, complemented by what you hear and what you feel through the FFB wheel. The balance of these sensory information is key to get the total immersion everybody wants from a Simulation.

PCars 1 in my opinion is not the best in delivering visual cues to the car movement, because the driving camera is moving and rotating too much relative to the world you see and not enough relative to the car you're sitting in. It dampens in a way the chance to judge the car movement relative to the world. This damping introduces a subtle delay between what you see and what the ffb wheel is telling you, breaking the immersion for people not used to compensate for these properties. Now, i'am not sure what to do to the camera to bring it closer to what many people are expecting, but we have very convincing case studies over at WMD. I'd really appreciate if these fellow WMD members could chip into this discussion.

On the audio side, there is not much spatial separation of the different sound sources, combined with a very high loudness level, drowning out many of the cues as to what the rear and the front of the car is doing. This has been greatly improved with the new sound engine used in PCars 2. This fact alone has improved the feeling of 'being there' vastly in my opinion.

morpwr
18-02-2017, 02:34
Just a question. What do you feel when you dab the brakes(no locking wheels) in a corner in AC? I feel exactly nothing... If you do feel anything, could you post your AC FFB settings(I have a T500rs)? I don't want to slag of AC or anything(I want it to be good too), but with my current dial-in Pcars feels so much more alive FFB-wise. That close to stepping out, I don't feel it in AC, maybe if I set slip FFB higher, but I hate the feeling of my wheel shaking when I light up the rear wheels. I never drove an RWD that did that... For comparison, for me rFActor 2 feels more like Pcars, but admittedly a bit better(without any large amount of tweaking). AC, not so much. So for me as it stands now, if Studio 397 does what they promised it's AC that's getting the boot, certainly not PCars(until 2 arrives that is).


I must say the sound of the tyres is much more communiticating in AC, but I'm one of those racers that uses sight and feel, not ears. It's great that it's there, but for me it's atmosphere. I know for a fact other racers uses that almost as primary sense(those can drive without FFB I absolutely can not), so maybe that's the feedback you guys are also missing?

But all in all our experiences are so vastly different I think we might have some (at least FFB) setup differences in our sims. Because as said, for me the FFB is rFactor 2>Pcars>AC. And for ease of use rFactor 2 wins hands down, because I didn;t tune anythin at all. Only thing I really hate is that it sets my TM control panel rotation to 540 or whatever it wants and it leaves it after the game quits.

To start: what helped for me is using Jack's tweakers(less curbs 66% one) lowered the SOP(I have a python script for multiplying parameters for a whole directory), and most important, I changed the FCM values I got. I raised the scoop reduction by .10 (originally at .55, now at .65)

First off I have a t300 and a pc racer so my settings may not equal the same results on a t500. Is the brake feeling really strong in ac no but I can feel it. But you mention pcars being more alive. Id agree as most here would that isn't the debate. Pcars does some things very well but because its more alive doesn't make it right.You can use who evers settings it still feels the same with regards to the way the tires feel disconnected from the road. You don't need to set slip higher in ac that's not what I'm talking about. I don't need the rear tires to tell me the rear is about to step out you can or should be able to feel that in the steering wheel without any kind of sop. I hated sop in pcars all it did was add weight to the wheel for the wrong reasons. You keep trying to find anything but the real issue. Its not,sound,screen,fov,its the way the tires/grip feels disconnected in pcars. Trust me most of us here that have mentioned the issue don't hate pcars and have spent a lot of time trying to get rid of the feeling and tweaking ffb settings. I just cant get by the dated look of rf2. But yes the ffb is very good and the control panel issue is a pita. R3e and ac are a toss up just depends on my mood. If I hadn't changed to pc from the ps4 I would have said pcars had the best ffb so its not like I'm a hater. Yes I have 2 copies of the game.

MaximusN
18-02-2017, 11:31
You don't need to set slip higher in ac that's not what I'm talking about. I don't need the rear tires to tell me the rear is about to step out you can or should be able to feel that in the steering wheel without any kind of sop. I hated sop in pcars all it did was add weight to the wheel for the wrong reasons.

I'm not talking about the rear axle, I'm talking about the front. I don't like SOP either because as I said I want to feel steering rack forces(which is what Pcars does(how well is up for debate, I agree) primarily SOP CAN be added to the mix) and nothing else. What I'm talking about is that when you brake, the front axle loads up.

morpwr
18-02-2017, 14:06
I'm not talking about the rear axle, I'm talking about the front. I don't like SOP either because as I said I want to feel steering rack forces(which is what Pcars does(how well is up for debate, I agree) primarily SOP CAN be added to the mix) and nothing else. What I'm talking about is that when you brake, the front axle loads up.

Yes I can feel it in ac but not like pcars. Maybe its because I have heusinkveld pedals ? I don't change much as far as settings go in most of the games. Little tweaks but not far from the defaults. I went back and played rfactor2 last night and find it odd that you rate that the highest and pcars second on your list when rfactor2 feels very similar to ac and r3e while pcars still feels like the odd ball. I played pcars too last night just to compare. I can jump between any of them but pcars feels odd. Like the car isn't in the track and always in sort of 4 wheel slide even though it isn't. Like I said I'm not bashing pcars that's why I built a pc and ive had pcars since day one. But it has an odd feeling and I'm sure if there was some magic fix all of us would love to hear it. Of course if sms had stepped in and said ok you guys are doing it wrong that may have helped. I'm sure there is a way sms intended the 20 plus settings to be used.

Haiden
18-02-2017, 17:13
Yes I can feel it in ac but not like pcars. Maybe its because I have heusinkveld pedals ? I don't change much as far as settings go in most of the games. Little tweaks but not far from the defaults. I went back and played rfactor2 last night and find it odd that you rate that the highest and pcars second on your list when rfactor2 feels very similar to ac and r3e while pcars still feels like the odd ball. I played pcars too last night just to compare. I can jump between any of them but pcars feels odd. Like the car isn't in the track and always in sort of 4 wheel slide even though it isn't. Like I said I'm not bashing pcars that's why I built a pc and ive had pcars since day one. But it has an odd feeling and I'm sure if there was some magic fix all of us would love to hear it. Of course if sms had stepped in and said ok you guys are doing it wrong that may have helped. I'm sure there is a way sms intended the 20 plus settings to be used.

That right there, is the most frustrating thing in the world to me. And I can't say I've heard that anywhere else but this forum, especially an rF2 comparison being the same. Every other sim I own (iRacing, AMS, rF2, R3E, and AC) all feel similar. PCars, regardless of whose settings I use or how I adjust the FFB, feels very different. It's communicative, and possibly more so than any of the others. But for some reason, it just doesn't feel like the car is on the ground. It would be nice if someone from SMS gave us a standard to compare by. Then at least people could say, I tried that and it does or doesn't resolve the issue. But so far, I've tried just ever recommended setting I've seen when people claim to have a good FFB tune. They're all missing the feeling I'm talking about, and I have yet to find any that feel like rF2.

Also, PCars has almost zero progressive turning weight in relation to angle and speed. This is well known. So I'm not really sure how it could ever feel like rF2, which has great progressive loading. :confused:

Haiden
18-02-2017, 17:22
All I'm saying is that anything related to ffb totally subjective, as we can see in this thread. It is not objective to say that the AC FFB is 'better' or PCARS FFB is 'closer to a real steering rack'. It only produces confrontation. Same goes for straw man arguments like 'so many people left'. I also reject the accusation of having an 'attitude' towards people criticizing the game.

The fact is that every FFB system generates a signal to control a motor, which has the ability to deliver a stronger or less strong constant force as well as torque inversions. Forces are modified in a way that resembles a real car, in all Simulations out there. The modulation of the forces changes from car to car, from chassis to chassis and even more so from sim to sim. And they all do a 'proper' job of conveying what the tires and the inertia of the vehicle is doing. Everything that goes beyond that is personal taste and learned behavior. It does not bring the discussion forward.

The feeling of 'being connected to the road' emerges if there are no contradictions between what one sees one the screen, complemented by what you hear and what you feel through the FFB wheel. The balance of these sensory information is key to get the total immersion everybody wants from a Simulation.

PCars 1 in my opinion is not the best in delivering visual cues to the car movement, because the driving camera is moving and rotating too much relative to the world you see and not enough relative to the car you're sitting in. It dampens in a way the chance to judge the car movement relative to the world. This damping introduces a subtle delay between what you see and what the ffb wheel is telling you, breaking the immersion for people not used to compensate for these properties. Now, i'am not sure what to do to the camera to bring it closer to what many people are expecting, but we have very convincing case studies over at WMD. I'd really appreciate if these fellow WMD members could chip into this discussion.

On the audio side, there is not much spatial separation of the different sound sources, combined with a very high loudness level, drowning out many of the cues as to what the rear and the front of the car is doing. This has been greatly improved with the new sound engine used in PCars 2. This fact alone has improved the feeling of 'being there' vastly in my opinion.

I've only ever said that AC's FFB is better, IMHO. I know it's subjective. I'm simply stating my opinion. And you can call the "That's why so many people left." a straw man argument, but it's a common complaint, or at was least early on among a lot of people who left. IDK...guess there's a lot of straw men out there.

I don't deny that visual cues and sound play a big part in the immersion. But there's one problem with your theory of that being the reason PCars doesn't feel connected. As I stated before, I often test FFB without the sound. And, if I close my eyes, the cars in AC still feel connected, but the cars in PCars don't. So I don't see how it could be camera related. I can't speak for anyone else, but the missing feel I'm talking about is in the feel coming though the wheel. I don't even have to be in a corner. It feels that way on a straight when I just apply a small amount of turning angle to slowly veer to the side. The camera barely moves and there's no sound from the tires when this happens.

This isn't something that only occurs at thresholds. It's always there.

morpwr
18-02-2017, 17:55
That right there, is the most frustrating thing in the world to me. And I can't say I've heard that anywhere else but this forum, especially an rF2 comparison being the same. Every other sim I own (iRacing, AMS, rF2, R3E, and AC) all feel similar. PCars, regardless of whose settings I use or how I adjust the FFB, feels very different. It's communicative, and possibly more so than any of the others. But for some reason, it just doesn't feel like the car is on the ground. It would be nice if someone from SMS gave us a standard to compare by. Then at least people could say, I tried that and it does or doesn't resolve the issue. But so far, I've tried just ever recommended setting I've seen when people claim to have a good FFB tune. They're all missing the feeling I'm talking about, and I have yet to find any that feel like rF2.

Also, PCars has almost zero progressive turning weight in relation to angle and speed. This is well known. So I'm not really sure how it could ever feel like rF2, which has great progressive loading. :confused:

I would love for someone from sms to say this is what we do on our simulators. Somebody sets them up at shows. Im sure at shows the wheel manufacturers and sms want to put the best product they can on display. Same here ive tried them all and they all have the same issue. Its almost like gravity is wrong in the calculations used in pcars.

Haiden
18-02-2017, 19:01
I would love for someone from sms to say this is what we do on our simulators. Somebody sets them up at shows. Im sure at shows the wheel manufacturers and sms want to put the best product they can on display. Same here ive tried them all and they all have the same issue. Its almost like gravity is wrong in the calculations used in pcars.

Martian gravity. :)

Good point about the show setups. Whatever settings they're using at shows, would be considered their recommended setup.

konnos
20-02-2017, 09:03
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22625-T500-T500rs-and-FFB&p=1324540&viewfull=1#post1324540

MaximusN tweaked Jack's files a little and it certainly felt better with my T300, please give them a try if you have the time/energy! Formulas need more adjustments, but the road cars especially feel a lot better like this to me.

Haiden
20-02-2017, 12:11
I spent a few hours experimenting with PCars on Saturday, and then a couple more Sunday. It kind of confirmed what I thought before--that Relative Adjust is part of the problem with the floatiness feel. Admittedly, this is all by feel, so if you prefer numbers and tool data, I don't have it. But the more RAB used, the less connected the car feels. Which, to me, makes sense because RAB is described as "...a time value for bleeding absolute torque back in...". For me, the problem is with TF=75, and no Scoops or RA, there's a lot of clipping. With Scoops, the clipping is mostly gone, but still happens under heavy braking. So set RA to 1.0 take advantage of the clamping in RAC, but only set RAB=0.01. Does RAC still work if RAB is set to 0.0? I didn't test that, but was curious.

The other thing I did was disable SoP all together. Jack's files were using a little SoP Diff, which was adding weight and contributing to the clipping. Disabled, the wheel isn't as tight, but also feels a little more realistic, IMO, and more importantly, helps eliminate clipping without making adjustments elsewhere.

Anyway, using the old Scoop values or SK/SR= 0.86/0.28 and PWM to eliminate Fanatec drag, the wheel felt better. The new Scoops values from the FCM tool. 0.46/0.12 also work, but don't produce the same slip feel, and the lower knee keeps too much in the high range, reducing the illusion of a little progressive loading that I felt with the higher knee. My @wheel FF is 75, which for Fanatec users is the same as setting in-game FF=75. There's no change in dynamic range, just a change in wheel weight. Higher @wheel settings didn't bring any subtle forces to the wheel. It just made it heavier. My DRR is .03 and the wheel feels fine.

Overall, the floatiness is still there, though not as bad as before. Sunday, I did a career race in PCars, and then hopped into a couple online races. In the career race (GT3), it was definitely cool to start the practice session in the early hours of a dreary, sun hazed morning at Silverstone. The dynamic weather is really nice. I don't deny that. But then the AI took to the track, and during practice, quali, and the race, I watched him them behaving like a madmen, cutting corners and driving on the grass like it was tarmac, a few times actually going wheel to wheel with me, but on the grass...LOL. Needless to say, the beauty of the dynamic weather was lost to this. What's the point of SP racing with the AI doesn't follow race etiquette and seems to have full grip on any surface.

The MP race wasn't bad. It was at Barcelona, GT3. I drove the BMW Z4. There were a few idiots, but the racing was fine. The floatiness still affects my ability to push in corners, but the FFB is communicative, so I did fine. Despite being pushed into a track cut penalty at the start, I ended up finishing 4th and had a few good battles.

Then I switched to AC. And had a career race at Nurburging GP (GT). The AI didn't cut track or drive like idiots. I had the AI set to 95, and only qualified 13th. For 20 laps I fought, tooth and nail, running my tires down to about 60% just to place 5th. It was a great race. I then hopped online and found a same car session at Monza with the Ferrari 458 GT2. I was only going to race one, but ended up sticking around for another. The first race I got a short quali session and started 6th, but got caught spun at the first corner and dropped back to 16th. I ended finishing 6th. The second race, I qualified 4th. This time, I got spun at the second Chicane, but had already built a gap and was able to keep 10th. I worked my way back to 4th and was able to catch the leaders by the last 3 laps, because they were battling. With 2 laps to go, I over took 3rd. And then, with one lap to go, 2nd caved under pressure, went wide and spun. So I got 2nd.

Now, I'm not bashing PCars. Just saying that I, personally, don't have races like the latter in PCars. Even when I take a podium, it doesn't feel like a tooth and nail fight. I have battles, but there's always a certain amount of restraint on my part, because I don't feel grip the way I do in other titles. In AC, I was just racing. And could feel the grip so naturally, I didn't have to think about it.

IDK... I feel that I've gotten the most I can out of the FFB in PCars1, and just hope PCars2 can improve on it. And hopefully, do so without making it the arduous research and testing process that it currently is.

Jack Spade
20-02-2017, 13:29
Now that this thread seems to have turned into an other FFB thread, let me give you an advice. There is a technical reason why I use SopDiff in all my sets, if you just
turn it off and leave the rest basically unchanged the whole thing goes out of balance cause the phase of Fz is negative. If you you guys want something without any
Sop my tweakers are inappropriate as basics and youīre better off to start from scratch.

Mahjik
20-02-2017, 13:31
Just to discuss the "floatiness", are you referring to how quickly the car responses to steering inputs? I'm trying to understand the definition of "floatiness"..

Haiden
20-02-2017, 14:01
Just to discuss the "floatiness", are you referring to how quickly the car responses to steering inputs? I'm trying to understand the definition of "floatiness"..

Basically, in PCars, the car feels like it's hovering above the ground, and the sense of grip is just a "representation" of grip. That's why I say, it's still communicative. I know what the car is doing, and what the tires are telling me, but because it just feels like a representation, I don't get the same feeling I get from other sims when powering out of a corner, going deep into a corner, or trying to stick the outside during an overtake. To me, PCars only communicates slip via weight, but it feels frictionless with regards to simulating actual tire/surface contact.

With AC, and others, it feels as though my tires are planted on the track. Slip/grip is comminicated through weight, but there is also a feeling of friction. When I go deep into a corner and approach threshold, I actually feel a sense of rubber grip preparing to give. Almost like a stretching, for lack of a better term. This seems to come before the wheel goes light from slip, but remains present and dynamic until traction breaks completely. Same for when trying to hang on the outside during an overtake. The wheel gets lighter as I approach and pass threshold, but the feeling of friction is really what allows me to stay on the edge of it. On corner exit, when I get back on the throttle, I can feel the back tires as they come around and get behind the car. Again, in a friction sense. In PCars, I don't feel this because weight is related to turning angle, and as I straighten the wheel on exit, the weight actually decreases. And since there's no sense of friction, powering out of a corner becomes a matter of avoiding slip by managing/avoiding the onset of lightness, instead of confidently laying down the power in relation to a feeling of returning grip derived from a sense of friction.

I hope that helps. It may be that this sense of friction is a canned effect. But as I said in a previous comment, a mix of canned and pure might be best. If this friction is a canned effect, IMO, it's very useful, and if PCars had it, I'd be playing and enjoying it a lot more.

Edit: IMO, the lack of friction in PCars--resulting in having to avoid slip only by managing/avoiding the onset of lightness, instead of in relation to the additional feeling of returning grip derived from a sense of friction--is why many people find PCars more difficult to drive than AC. The assumption is that it's because PCars has better physics, but IMO, PCars is more difficult to drive, because the lack of friction leaves you a bit handicapped, relying solely on the onset of lightness to let you know when you're approaching threshold and, conversely, not giving you anything to work with when the steering angle isn't sharp enough to load the wheel, like on corner exit.

MaximusN
20-02-2017, 15:03
Now that this thread seems to have turned into an other FFB thread, let me give you an advice. There is a technical reason why I use SopDiff in all my sets, if you just
turn it off and leave the rest basically unchanged the whole thing goes out of balance cause the phase of Fz is negative. If you you guys want something without any
Sop my tweakers are inappropriate as basics and youīre better off to start from scratch.

That's basically what I said in the other thread, that it could/would throw your carefully sculpted balance. But still it opens up the FFB to more communication which is sought after by many. I don't have the skills(or your perseverance :D ) to build them, so I went with a global multiplication factor(for given parameters). I might just try letting a little smidge of SOP in.

Mahjik
20-02-2017, 15:30
Ok. Yes, that a method a lot of sims used (and still use) which basically ties the wheel resistance to the g-forces being generated. As the g-forces increase, the resistance gets stronger to make it feel like the car is weighted in the corners. It's not a wrong thing to do, just not what pCARS1 does since it's not directly tied to rack forces. As others have stated, this effect is in pCARS1 to a degree but it's not as dominate as having it as it's own feature tied to g-forces as opposed to steering rack forces.

Haiden
20-02-2017, 15:44
Ok. Yes, that a method a lot of sims used (and still use) which basically ties the wheel resistance to the g-forces being generated. As the g-forces increase, the resistance gets stronger to make it feel like the car is weighted in the corners. It's not a wrong thing to do, just not what pCARS1 does since it's not directly tied to rack forces. As others have stated, this effect is in pCARS1 to a degree but it's not as dominate as having it as it's own feature tied to g-forces as opposed to steering rack forces.

Then it would be nice to have it as an optional feature in PCars2. Because, unfortunately, if it's treated the same way as it is in PCars1, then I'm going to have the same problem with the FFB. And with rF2 moving to DX11 soon, I won't be missing dynamic weather so much anymore.

Jack Spade
20-02-2017, 15:58
That's basically what I said in the other thread, that it could/would throw your carefully sculpted balance. But still it opens up the FFB to more communication which is sought after by many. I don't have the skills(or your perseverance :D ) to build them, so I went with a global multiplication factor(for given parameters). I might just try letting a little smidge of SOP in.

The core balance of my files are based on the fact that Fz is negative. There are different ways to deal with it or even neutralize it, I have chosen the latter.
So if you kill it one way or the other my files and whatīs left of it are completely useless as a starting point, what you think is more communication is just
an out of phase issue, again you have to start from scratch.

konnos
20-02-2017, 16:27
Well it seems pretty nice to my wheel Jack, except for the fact that the wheel lightens up a tad too much when pushed hard (e.g. Lancer). I can't say it feels wrong at all though, but it could use some optimization. I don't have the mental strength or time frankly to sit and do each car, now that I have more clues to what I should bee changing. Those files are good for me, I might change a few values here and there but they are nice.

What do you suggest for compensation? Would a sizeable decrease in SoP be beneficial to lower power wheels in this case? My instinct is to increace Fy slightly while lowering Fx at the same time as they are. A bit of clipping under braking. Not that I mind.

EDIT: Someone could transfer the off-topic ffb stuff to the other thread in Technical, where MaximunN posted his version of tweak files, if you want to keep the thread clean.

Haiden
20-02-2017, 16:30
The core balance of my files are based on the fact that Fz is negative. There are different ways to deal with it or even neutralize it, I have chosen the latter.
So if you kill it one way or the other my files and whatīs left of it are completely useless as a starting point, what you think is more communication is just
an out of phase issue, again you have to start from scratch.

What about just reducing it? Because the SoP Diff does seem to make the frictionless feel described above worse. Could that be because it's more weight on top of an already barely detectable feeling of friction? Does a reducing it ruin the files?

Jack Spade
20-02-2017, 16:54
What about just reducing it? Because the SoP Diff does seem to make the frictionless feel described above worse. Could that be because it's more weight on top of an already barely detectable feeling of friction? Does a reducing it ruin the files?

SopDiff = vertical load sampled from the rear tires (FFB world), has nothing to do with friction. As mentioned many times I put it against the negative phase of Fz,
if itīs off or reduced/increased the file balance is spoiled.

Haiden
20-02-2017, 17:13
SopDiff = vertical load sampled from the rear tires (FFB world), has nothing to do with friction. As mentioned many times I put it against the negative phase of Fz,
if itīs off or reduced/increased the file balance is spoiled.

I understand, and I'm not saying it's directly related to friction. But since the all forces are transmitted through the same device and sometimes ride on top of or alongside each other, I think SoP Diff is somehow muting the already limited feeling of friction PCars produces. Similar to how Fy can step on and overpower other forces, even though they aren't related to lateral forces. The friction feel isn't good regardless of whether SoP Diff is used or not, but the car feels less floaty when I'm not using SoP.

My question is simply, does lowering SoP Diff, completely ruin the balance you created, like disabling it does?

konnos
20-02-2017, 18:08
Maybe SoP is actually SoaP :)

morpwr
21-02-2017, 01:26
Maybe SoP is actually SoaP :)

Well that got a chuckle out of me:)

Jack Spade
21-02-2017, 07:51
I understand, and I'm not saying it's directly related to friction. But since the all forces are transmitted through the same device and sometimes ride on top of or alongside each other, I think SoP Diff is somehow muting the already limited feeling of friction PCars produces. Similar to how Fy can step on and overpower other forces, even though they aren't related to lateral forces. The friction feel isn't good regardless of whether SoP Diff is used or not, but the car feels less floaty when I'm not using SoP.

My question is simply, does lowering SoP Diff, completely ruin the balance you created, like disabling it does?

Not completely, depends. Would it help anything concerning your point?....Nope. If you think SopDiff is the cause of all evil leave it off and start from scratch, itīs only FxFzMzFy
you have to deal with... simple.

Edit: In the Low Vertical Load set SopDiff/Fz levels are severely lower than in the Classic set, compare the sets on a flat track like Dubai, you will notice not much difference.

Haiden
21-02-2017, 11:23
Not completely, depends. Would it help anything concerning your point?....Nope. If you think SopDiff is the cause of all evil leave it off and start from scratch, itīs only FxFzMzFy
you have to deal with... simple.

Edit: In the Low Vertical Load set SopDiff/Fz levels are severely lower than in the Classic set, compare the sets on a flat track like Dubai, you will notice not much difference.

Nothing that dramatic. I just noticed that the floaty disconnected feeling I dislike is reduced when SoP is off. So actually, it does help things concerning my point. I'm not saying it doesn't disrupt the balance that you created--obviously, turning a scale off would do that. I'm just saying it feels less floaty to me. All I can go by is what I feel, and that's how it feels to me.

I was already using the Low Vertical Load files. Starting using them when they first came out. They felt better than the classics I'd been using.

Mascot
21-02-2017, 11:40
If anyone has any settings that make pCARS feel more like AC then I'd love to try them.

GrimeyDog
21-02-2017, 11:43
If anyone has any settings that make pCARS feel more like AC then I'd love to try them.

:eagerness:

Haiden
21-02-2017, 12:04
If anyone has any settings that make pCARS feel more like AC then I'd love to try them.

Honestly, I don't think it's possible. From what's been said above, PCars is using pure rack forces, and missing whatever it is AC and other sims have that creates the feeling of friction. Or, if it's there, it's severely diminished by comparison.

I managed to get it feeling "better" which is obviously subjective, but AC was the feel I was aiming for. The floatiness is still there, though not as bad, IMO. And there's less chatter going on in the feel. I updated my settings on Oscar OLim's site if you want to try them out. I'm going to play more this weekend, when I have time. But right now that's where I'm at, and I like it better. I turned off SoP Diff in Jack's Low Vertical Load files, but this weekend, I'm going to experiment with reducing them, instead of turning them off. With SoP Diff, the wheel will be heavier. If it creates clipping, you can try lowering SG first. Personally, I didn't want to lower TF anymore than it was.

Also, I have in-game FF=100 and @wheel Force is set to 75%. But it doesn't really matter if you run FF=75 / @wheel=100. Same thing.

Again, it doesn't feel like AC, but it does feel better/closer, IMO. Although, I have to admit. I didn't put it through the paces, just a few SP and MP races with car/tracks that I'm familiar with.

GrimeyDog
21-02-2017, 12:05
Pcars can Be Made to feel like AC, R3E & AMS... its all Settings related... All the feel is definitly there... its just a matter of FFB tuining... 1 game has Canned effects -VS- the other claimes Realistic physics calculations....unless a game just has Poor and sucking Driving physics its all the same...they are Both just a simulated Driving experience... No matter how you look at it it's just the Wheel Creates Changes in Wheel weight to Create FFB feel... Simple:yes:.... Pcars has Many Redundant settings that tweek and fine tune the FFB along the FFB chain... If set Correctly it is possible to achieve any feel you want to bring out... The Feel is Definily there.

The only feel Pcars is Lacking is AC's Very strong wheel weight when your in a turn at High Speed... Good or Bad thing i dunno depends on what you like or are used to... But Pcars also has that just a tad bit tamer and more refined so it gives a better sense of weight transfer.

IMO Pcars FFB system is Not that Different or Complicated once you understand what does what... The problem is Choice... Some times too many options to choose from is Not a Good thing... People become confused get stuck and are easily mislead.

morpwr
21-02-2017, 12:20
Pcars can Be Made to feel like AC, R3E & AMS... its all Settings related... All the feel is definitly there... its just a matter of FFB tuining... 1 game has Canned effects -VS- the other claimes Realistic physics calculations....unless a game just has Poor and sucking Driving physics its all the same...they are Both just a simulated Driving experience... No matyer how you look at it it's just the Wheel Creates Changes in Wheel weight to Create FFB feel... Simple:yes:.... Pcars has Many Redundant settings that tweek and fine tune the FFB along the FFB chain... If set Correctly it is possible to achieve any feel you want to bring out... The Feel is Definily there.

The only feel Pcars is Lacking is AC's Very strong wheel weight when your in a turn at High Speed... Good or Bad thing i dunno depends on what you like or are used to... But Pcars also has that just a tad bit tamer and more refined so it gives a better sense of weight transfer.

IMO Pcars FFB system is Not that Different or Complicated once you understand what does what... The problem is Choice... Some times too many options to choose from is Not a Good thing... Peiple become confused get stuck and are easily mislead.

If you go into the ffb ini in ac and turn gamma on you can play with that.

Jack Spade
21-02-2017, 12:43
If anyone has any settings that make pCARS feel more like AC then I'd love to try them.

Are you really expecting a different value here or there would do what youīre asking for? Different dev teams, different interpretation of
physics and FFB, different game engines, etc. = different games.

Haiden
21-02-2017, 13:08
If anyone has any settings that make pCARS feel more like AC then I'd love to try them.

Sorry. The settings on the site were off. I just updated them. TF=100, and SG=1.15.

Haiden
21-02-2017, 13:11
If anyone has any settings that make pCARS feel more like AC then I'd love to try them.


Are you really expecting a different value here or there would do what youīre asking for? Different dev teams, different interpretation of
physics and FFB, different game engines, etc. = different games.

Keywords... "more like". I don't think he's expecting it to feel exactly like AC, just a little more in that direction, however far or little it can go. That's all he asking.

Jack Spade
21-02-2017, 13:54
Keywords... "more like". I don't think he's expecting it to feel exactly like AC, just a little more in that direction, however far or little it can go. That's all he asking.

Whatever, itīs not something a user could do with just a tweaker and menu, the course already was determined in the dev department.

GrimeyDog
21-02-2017, 13:59
Keywords... "more like". I don't think he's expecting it to feel exactly like AC, just a little more in that direction, however far or little it can go. That's all he asking.

Once you take out SOP Pcars feels Very Much like AC except for the Strong Proressive wheel weight AC has while turning at High Speeds...IMO AC uses that Progressive wheel weight to create the Feel of G Forces/ Weight Transfer and It actually does a Really Good job of Simulating G force/ Weight tranfer Feel according to how AC is set up.

out of AC, R3E, AMS & Pcars.... PCars and AMS feel Very Simular while AC and R3E feel more alike.

Haiden
21-02-2017, 14:13
Whatever, itīs not something a user could do with just a tweaker and menu, the course already was determined in the dev department.

Dude... Don't get offended. No one saying your files/work isn't good. Some people simply like the friction style grip that is present in other sims and would like to see feel more of it in PCars. Regardless of what balance you've created and whether or not that's the right way to do it and the direction that dev has gone, PCars lacks friction. That is just undeniable. Whether or not that matters to someone boils down to personal preference, that's all.

For the record, I did a little testing this morning with and without SoP Diff. My lap times were definitely better with SoP Diff, but there was less floatiness without SoP.

I'm going to try turning it down a bit a see where that gets me. But, honestly, it's probably not worth a lot fiddling, because I just don't play PCars much anymore, because of the floatiness.

GrimeyDog
21-02-2017, 14:31
Dude... Don't get offended. No one saying your files/work isn't good. Some people simply like the friction style grip that is present in other sims and would like to see feel more of it in PCars. Regardless of what balance you've created and whether or not that's the right way to do it and the direction that dev has gone, PCars lacks friction. That is just undeniable. Whether or not that matters to someone boils down to personal preference, that's all.

For the record, I did a little testing this morning with and without SoP Diff. My lap times were definitely better with SoP Diff, but there was less floatiness without SoP.

I'm going to try turning it down a bit a see where that gets me. But, honestly, it's probably not worth a lot fiddling, because I just don't play PCars much anymore, because of the floatiness.


The Feel is there Dude... the Feel is there!!! Now that im using on wheel FFB 50 with My Tweek there is More Feel than EVER!!! at higher on wheel FFB the Feel was there but the stronger FFB forces over shadowing quite a bit of the more Subtle FFB Feel... but even at on wheel FFB 50 the FFB is quite Strong but you dont fight with the wheel:yes: Even the FA using the F1 Rim Feels Right!!! without changing a thing.... No more Harsh wheel Oscillation:yes: its all just a #'s game to get things balanced out to what feels best to you... But the feel is definitly there:yes:

Now using on wheel FFB 50 i have beaten many of My fastest Times Gt3 Ruf, LMP1, F1 by .300 to .500 due to more Slip/subtle road feel and less fight with the wheel.
My New rule of thunb is if i have to Shift or Lift My shoulders from the back of My Chair then the Wheel weight/FFB is too Strong

Mahjik
21-02-2017, 14:32
He's not getting offended, he's just saying that two different titles which have two different physics and FFB models, are just going to feel different. Trying to make one feel like the other is likely not going to be successful.

Mascot
21-02-2017, 14:32
Are you really expecting a different value here or there would do what youīre asking for? Different dev teams, different interpretation of
physics and FFB, different game engines, etc. = different games.

I've really no idea as it's all a bit of a black art to me, but if a more 'planted' feel was simply a couple of variables away then I'd have been daft not to ask the question.

FWIW I've been using your FFB values for the past 20-odd months and have been getting on fine with them, it's just that I got Assetto Corsa a few weeks ago and realised that I slightly preferred the FFB in that game (if I had the choice). It just gave me more confidence, allowed the car to talk to me a little more clearly about what it's intentions were.

From what you said it seems there's fundamentally different approaches taken by Kunos and SMS, so they will always feel fundamentally different no matter how much fettling is done. I'm fine with that. Every day's a school day.. ! :)

Jack Spade
21-02-2017, 14:50
I've really no idea as it's all a bit of a black art to me, but if a more 'planted' feel was simply a couple of variables away then I'd have been daft not to ask the question.

FWIW I've been using your FFB values for the past 20-odd months and have been getting on fine with them, it's just that I got Assetto Corsa a few weeks ago and realised that I slightly preferred the FFB in that game (if I had the choice). It just gave me more confidence, allowed the car to talk to me a little more clearly about what it's intentions were.

From what you said it seems there's fundamentally different approaches taken by Kunos and SMS, so they will always feel fundamentally different no matter how much fettling is done. I'm fine with that. Every day's a school day.. ! :)

Yes, thatīs it.

Mascot
21-02-2017, 14:53
Sorry. The settings on the site were off. I just updated them. TF=100, and SG=1.15.

The link in your sig?

Might give these a go later.

Haiden
21-02-2017, 15:09
Whatever, itīs not something a user could do with just a tweaker and menu, the course already was determined in the dev department.


He's not getting offended, he's just saying that two different titles which have two different physics and FFB models, are just going to feel different. Trying to make one feel like the other is likely not going to be successful.

True. But getting something to feel more like something just means as close as possible. As close as possible might be a mile away, but it's still as close as possible, and that's all he was asking. Yes, there are fundamental differences between PCars and others titles. But you can still try to improve the feel in the direction you like best. That's all we're trying to do.

But comments like the above, are just another example of user's opinions being dismissed whenever they disagree or report experiencing something different--this idea that users can't tweak the system to feel the way they want it to, or that the feel they desire/like best is wrong because it doesn't follow the prescribed method. Whether you all realize it or not, the problem with this kind of dismissal is... PCars is a consumer product, made for users. If consumers can't figure out how to use it, then it's not a very good consumer product is it? SMS won't give us a definitive answer on recommended settings, so of course users are trying to figure things out themselves. If the direction has already been decided, then why were the FFB settings left open? Why not do what other sims do and just give us a few scales to adjust overall force? To me, that kind of approach seems more like a predetermined direction.

IDK... it's just a little strange, at least to me. People complain about the system being too complicated, and we're told that SMS created this system with all it's complexity to give users the ultimate amount of flexibility so they could tweak the feel to their liking. But then in the next breath, we're told, it's not something a user would understand, that the direction has already been determined, so just do it this way. Well which is it? Because, at least to me, these replies are just starting to seem like responses of convenience. :confused:

Haiden
21-02-2017, 15:14
The link in your sig?

Might give these a go later.

Yes. Like I said. They're just the best I've gotten, so far. There could be better. Also, I tried SoP Diff on and off this morning. With SoP, on my lap times were better, but there was more floatiness. SoP Off reduces the floatiness, but my lap times weren't as good. That being said, I also tried the SoP On last, after running quite a few laps with it Off. So, it's possible the difference in lap times was due to me having already warmed up with the car/track. I'd have to do more testing to be sure.

Also, with SoP Diff on, I lowered SG to 1.05. I think there's still a bit of clipping occurring, and plan to try SG=1.0 later.

konnos
21-02-2017, 15:39
Well I don't know, with MaximumN alternative tweak files (Jack's folder 10 variant) I did 1second better lap in oulton int with the Z4, a combo I haven't touched for a long time. Who knows, maybe i got better over this time, but it was more natural. We ll see.

Mahjik
21-02-2017, 15:45
True. But getting something to feel more like something just means as close as possible. As close as possible might be a mile away, but it's still as close as possible, and that's all he was asking. Yes, there are fundamental differences between PCars and others titles. But you can still try to improve the feel in the direction you like best. That's all we're trying to do.

But comments like the above, are just another example of user's opinions being dismissed whenever they disagree or report experiencing something different--this idea that users can't tweak the system to feel the way they want it to, or that the feel they desire/like best is wrong because it doesn't follow the prescribed method. Whether you all realize it or not, the problem with this kind of dismissal is... PCars is a consumer product, made for users. If consumers can't figure out how to use it, then it's not a very good consumer product is it? SMS won't give us a definitive answer on recommended settings, so of course users are trying to figure things out themselves. If the direction has already been decided, then why were the FFB settings left open? Why not do what other sims do and just give us a few scales to adjust overall force? To me, that kind of approach seems more like a predetermined direction.

IDK... it's just a little strange, at least to me. People complain about the system being too complicated, and we're told that SMS created this system with all it's complexity to give users the ultimate amount of flexibility so they could tweak the feel to their liking. But then in the next breath, we're told, it's not something a user would understand, that the direction has already been determined, so just do it this way. Well which is it? Because, at least to me, these replies are just starting to seem like responses of convenience. :confused:

What?

Look at it from the other side. You are and have been complaining that pCARS doesn't feel like AC. You get an explanation that two different approaches to physics and FFB are going to yield two different results. You don't like that answer so then you throw it out there as if you are being bullied... No one is dismissing anything. At the end of the day, unless two racing sims use the exact same engine, they are going to feel different. Back in the day when just about every racing sim was made from isiMotor (rF1), that was the case. You could use the same FFB settings on all of them and you had the exact same feel. That's not the case anymore.

You seem to think information is being hidden from you. As if there is some magic switch to turn pCARS FFB into AC and everyone involved with SMS/WMD are hiding it. That is not the case. You have Jack here in your thread who understands the FFB almost as much as those who work for SMS and designed it. He's provided some insights for you, although cryptically but I know most of that is that he is not a native English speaker so some of his comments can get lose in translation.


>>SMS won't give us a definitive answer on recommended settings

SMS would tell you that recommended settings are the defaults. If those settings do not suit you; you are able to change them via the options they provide. Any sim is going to say the same thing as they are not going to ship their application and not have their recommended settings as their default (for better or worse). Whether people like the default/recommended settings will be personal preference.

RomKnight
21-02-2017, 15:58
Being FFB such a sujective and personal thing what I find strange is the complaining. Don't have the tools to change to taste... guilty; Tools are provided... guilty because one can hammer own hand... :quadruple_facepalm:

Even if all of it was rocket science - which is not and I'd assume anyone know what an axis is - FFB is about FEEL so... by simple trial and error moving one slider at a time one should be able to get at least close to their preferences just by driven laps and *feel* which is what FFB is all about.

That said, the defaults... yeah... :)

Haiden
21-02-2017, 16:19
What?

Look at it from the other side. You are and have been complaining that pCARS doesn't feel like AC. You get an explanation that two different approaches to physics and FFB are going to yield two different results. You don't like that answer so then you throw it out there as if you are being bullied... No one is dismissing anything. At the end of the day, unless two racing sims use the exact same engine, they are going to feel different. Back in the day when just about every racing sim was made from isiMotor (rF1), that was the case. You could use the same FFB settings on all of them and you had the exact same feel. That's not the case anymore.


Uh... except for the fact that I haven't been complaining about it. I just said I liked the feel of AC better. I said I was using AC as the model to try to get PCars to feel more like it. I understand that they are using two different models, and even said...


Honestly, I don't think it's possible. From what's been said above, PCars is using pure rack forces, and missing whatever it is AC and other sims have that creates the feeling of friction.

Trying to get something to feel more like something else doesn't mean that I think they are the same or that they will ever feel identical. I've said this a number of times, but for some reason people keep acting as if we think it's possible to make PCars feel exactly like AC. I assure you, that isn't the case. It's very obvious that this will never happen, because it can't happen.

Also, I think everyone pretty much agrees that the defaults aren't that good. The question to SMS, that was asked a couple pages back, but conveniently not answered by anyone that could, was... "What settings does SMS use at trade shows?"


SMS would tell you that recommended settings are the defaults. If those settings do not suit you; you are able to change them via the options they provide. Any sim is going to say the same thing as they are not going to ship their application and not have their recommended settings as their default (for better or worse). Whether people like the default/recommended settings will be personal preference.

So are you saying they use the defaults setting at shows?



Being FFB such a sujective and personal thing what I find strange is the complaining. Don't have the tools to change to taste... guilty; Tools are provided... guilty because one can hammer own hand... :quadruple_facepalm:

Even if all of it was rocket science - which is not and I'd assume anyone know what an axis is - FFB is about FEEL so... by simple trial and error moving one slider at a time one should be able to get at least close to their preferences just by driven laps and *feel* which is what FFB is all about.

That said, the defaults... yeah... :)

Yes. And yet when we start playing with the dials and find a personal preference that we like, like... no SoP, we're then immediately told that we might as well just start from scratch, because that's not how it works. So.... conundrum. :confused: Because that happens all the time. Go look at the FFB thread whenever someone mentions they like the feel better with lower FF, they're immediately told not to touch FF. That you can't do that. So, like I said... In one breath... "It's there for you to customize to your liking." And then in the next... "You're doing it wrong."

konnos
21-02-2017, 18:31
Haiden to be fair, Jack said to start ovet if you want no sop and he has got a point, the balance is off if you do and you have to compensate elsewhere if you want full range of forces. That s all he meant, nothing dismissive of what you were asking him.

Which doesnt stop you of increasing the rest of the forces by some margin. But i suspect that as forces will increase, the vagueness will come back.

Sampo
21-02-2017, 18:33
Yes. And yet when we start playing with the dials and find a personal preference that we like, like... no SoP, we're then immediately told that we might as well just start from scratch, because that's not how it works.

Who said that? If it's something you like, then it's something you should use.

Edit: oh, it was Jack. Have you tried starting from default and changing some dials and getting something you like? If so, use it. I've never liked to use Jack's files and I've been fine with some changes of my own to the defaults.

Haiden
21-02-2017, 19:04
Haiden to be fair, Jack said to start ovet if you want no sop and he has got a point, the balance is off if you do and you have to compensate elsewhere if you want full range of forces. That s all he meant, nothing dismissive of what you were asking him.

Which doesnt stop you of increasing the rest of the forces by some margin. But i suspect that as forces will increase, the vagueness will come back.


Who said that? If it's something you like, then it's something you should use.

Edit: oh, it was Jack. Have you tried starting from default and changing some dials and getting something you like? If so, use it. I've never liked to use Jack's files and I've been fine with some changes of my own to the defaults.

To clarify, my comment about the dismissive attitudes in the forums wasn't meant to single Jack out. That was just the latest instance. To be fair, he's probably been the least dismissive of all, and makes quite an effort to be helpful. But there are myriad instances of this attitude rearing it's head from a variety of different people, so I don't think anyone (that's being honest) can say they've never seen it happening.

Yes. I've tried custom FFB settings, and used them for quite some time. I switched to Jack's because I simply got tired of fiddling with in-car FFB settings every time I changed tracks, and then having to tune up new cars before I could use them. It made MP frustrating as hell, and using Jack's tweaker files took that headache away. I didn't have an issue with PCars' FFB until I switched to PC and start playing other sims. That's when I began to realize that I liked the planted feel/friction that's in just about every other sim I've tried. The absence of this is why I find it hard to play PCars for more than a race or two. I have no misconceptions about making PCars feel exactly like AC. All I'm trying to do is reduce the floatiness as much as possible. Unfortunately, it seems that doing this means sacrificing some dynamic range.

gotdirt410sprintcar
21-02-2017, 20:42
Too me I have good feeling in both. I like how AC when grip lose starts is good it does kind of feels floatie but in a real Street car etc feels the same only difference we feel the g forces. Pcars alot more bumps etc but for some reason the lateral feel like start of losing grip vibration is none no matter what I have done. Just lose weight of the wheel past slip angle. I guess too different games both great in there own way more fun for me keep me out the bar/ pud lol

GrimeyDog
21-02-2017, 21:51
He's not getting offended, he's just saying that two different titles which have two different physics and FFB models, are just going to feel different. Trying to make one feel like the other is likely not going to be successful.


Being FFB such a sujective and personal thing what I find strange is the complaining. Don't have the tools to change to taste... guilty; Tools are provided... guilty because one can hammer own hand... :quadruple_facepalm:

Even if all of it was rocket science - which is not and I'd assume anyone know what an axis is - FFB is about FEEL so... by simple trial and error moving one slider at a time one should be able to get at least close to their preferences just by driven laps and *feel* which is what FFB is all about.

That said, the defaults... yeah... :)

Agree they don't feel 1 to 1 but with the right settings Pcars can be made to feel Very similar to AMS, R3E & AC.

Pcars feels alot Like AMS in alot of ways...Weight transfer and bump feel mostly.

Pcars with No SOP feels Similar to AC but its Not 1 to 1 maybe 70 -75% the big Diff is the progressive steering wheel weight that AC uses to simulate G forces/weight transfer While Pcars uses Varying Changes in wheel weight to Create G force/weight transfer feel.

They Both feel good its just which 1 you like most or are most used to.

IMO I get great FFB feel from Pcars, No Floaty boat like or disconnected from road feel at all...The Mustang 2+2 fast back feels to be the most Floaty car but it feels very true to form to how they really drive..its a feel that you would have to have driven a stock suspension car from that era to know about.

The tools are there to find the feel that you like best.

Edit: I figured out the FFB System by trial and error...Lap after lap after lap!!! i tried the tools but never came close to anything that felt as natural as hand tweeking...even after you use the tools you have to fine tune by feel any way so i didn't waste too much time with tools it just made more sence to tweek by hand feel from start to finish.

hkraft300
21-02-2017, 22:00
True!

So um. Have Haiden and Co that aren't entirely happy with pcars ffb, have you tried going to default per car ffb with RAC closer to RAG? Or does that not work well for strong wheels?
What about body scale? Some of the descriptions I'm reading from you guys about it all I'm just throwing ideas. I haven't played with body scale.

Haiden
21-02-2017, 22:18
Honestly, I think it's a design difference. Like one of THE WMD guys said above, PCars handles/simulates g-forces differently. There is always going to be a difference in feel between the two. I just prefer the feel of AC. But I do feel I can get the most out of what PCars can offer. What's missing, IMO, is something that just isn't in the game. And no setting will deliver it.

gotdirt410sprintcar
21-02-2017, 23:09
I missed this you can get vibration but you have too use smoothing. Remember the one update they changed some arm angle and zero boby stuff? I you could go negative arm angle if you like too test that use a kart and put arm in middle.

Arm dropped too far you get vibrations that straight across FFB line maybe this can be dialed in .the kart I tried I haven't run. Career that's when I tried that.

GrimeyDog
22-02-2017, 01:59
True!

So um. Have Haiden and Co that aren't entirely happy with pcars ffb, have you tried going to default per car ffb with RAC closer to RAG? Or does that not work well for strong wheels?
What about body scale? Some of the descriptions I'm reading from you guys about it all I'm just throwing ideas. I haven't played with body scale.

Since were talking FFB why not:p

I tested RAG 200 -vs- RAG 100
RAB .08 "
RAC .75 "

Every thing is my normal settings , stock car suspension with 100 in car masters.
TF 75
SG 1.0



http://youtu.be/Z_nPn-N08n0


Testing TF/RAC 75 with RAG 200 -VS- RAG 100 in GT3 Mclaren and as always stock suspension tune.

RAG 200 or 100 Note the FFB Graph still No Clipping!

I chose this car because it drives very Tame/Smooth and doesn't have a lot of Bump/Road feel compared to the Gt3 Ruf...
Very interesting test...While RAG 200 will Give more FFB feel which shows in the stronger FFB graph...The problem is it feels good on the GT3 Mclaren but on the Gt3 Ruf its too Much the wheel becomes very jerky and stuttery.. High RAG can Not be Balanced for all cars without lowering in Car Masters Significantly which IMO is killing FFB at the source.

Solution is again as always...RAG 1.0 and adjust the in car masters until the car feels right to you.


The main point with Pcars FFB system is to avoid clipping:yes: once you can set the globals to avoid clipping you can then tweek for best FFB Feel:yes: I have shown that you can use in car masters 100 RAG 1.0, SG 1.0 and get very powerful balanced FFB with No clipping or loss of dynamic FFB range...The video shows you can use in car masters 100 and RAG 2.0 and still get No clipping:yes:

Pcars FFB is based supposed to be based on Pure Steering Rack Forces that Create the FFB Effects and feel correct??? So the Question is why continue to kill the FFB at the source using low in Car Masters:confused: Yes there are many ways to tweek the FFB system... I tried low in car masters and it just really kills too much feel with No Benefit.

Even with in car masters 100, RAG 1.0, SG 1.0 there is no clipping to be seen in the FFB Graph and No loss of dynamic FFB range:yes:

hkraft300
22-02-2017, 05:17
Well I mentioned specifically bringing raC closer to raG.
Because I did the opposite and it smoothed out the roughness of the G29 gear drive significantly. The much hated rattling and clanking of the gears when you hit a hard kerb or go off track pretty much disappeared.
It's made the wheel "smooth", that's with raG and SG at 1.00.
So, given that raC < raG has brought on a, what I'm guessing to be, a more "floaty" feel, doing the opposite, ie raG = raC, would make it feel less "floaty" and more direct?
I'll give hard numbers when I run pcars next. I'm at work atm :D

PS I have to kill ffb at the source (low MS) because the G29 clips out of fear of Eu Rouge.

GrimeyDog
22-02-2017, 09:43
Well I mentioned specifically bringing raC closer to raG.
Because I did the opposite and it smoothed out the roughness of the G29 gear drive significantly. The much hated rattling and clanking of the gears when you hit a hard kerb or go off track pretty much disappeared.
It's made the wheel "smooth", that's with raG and SG at 1.00.
So, given that raC < raG has brought on a, what I'm guessing to be, a more "floaty" feel, doing the opposite, ie raG = raC, would make it feel less "floaty" and more direct?
I'll give hard numbers when I run pcars next. I'm at work atm :D

PS I have to kill ffb at the source (low MS) because the G29 clips out of fear of Eu Rouge.

RAG 1.0

+ In Car MS to between 75--->100 to fill FFB signal for fuller Richer Feel and Remove Floaty feel from the FFB

use RAC 80 or below to Balance FFB power level out and Avoid Clipping while Still maintaining a Fuller Richer FFB signal and FFB Feel.... Remember The FFB signal must be left room for signal exapansion<---This is what RAC doe's.

RAG=RAC will cause Clipping.... or you will have to cut car masters sooo Low you might as well not even.want FFB.

Edit: Note Keep in mind that 1.0/100 = 100% Power...when you use RAG @ex:130 you are telling the RAG to operateat 130% power level.... If the FFB was weak at 1.0/100% power then i could understand the Need to increase RAG +1.0/100....@1.0 the FFB is Very strong so there is Never a Need to use any setting above 1.0/100.

Also Note that the Fact RAG is being used at 1.0 + is what LOCKS you into using Low Masters...Which Kills the Very Forces you are trying to feel at the source....Hence My Question-->If Pcars FFB is supposed to be based on Pure Steering Rack Forces why Kill it at the source???
My Video Clearly Shows that even with in Car Masters 100, TF 75, RAC 75 that you can use RAG at 200 and Still No Clipping with No Loss of Dynamic FFB Range... But as i Noted in the Video post that Higher RAG +1.0 may feel good on 1 car but is way too Much on others.

Using RAG @+ 1.0 actually just increases the Head Room that FFB forces have to oprate... as with any Limiter/Volume control when you turn it up too high you Create distortion due to uncheck unbalanced signals.... RAG is a Limiter EX: at 1.0 it will Clip/Cut any force that tries to rise above its set level.... This is why you use RAC to balance the signal EX: RAC 75 to limit the power to the FFB signal at 75 so you can leave room for Signal expansion.... Just because you stop adding FFB power at 75 the FFB will continue to Rise/Spike until the resudual power Dissapates.

When RAG(1.0) and RAC(75-->80) are set correctly you will Note that you have more than enough FFB power and be able to use Higher in Car Masters to let the Pure Steering Rack FFB forces be felt with No Fear of Clipping.

Feel Free to test and i welcome any and all Comments based on Test Results.

Jack Spade
22-02-2017, 11:40
SopDifferential the cause of evil?

For A/B comparison Chevrolet_Corvette_C7R tweaker of my Low Vertical Load set and an adapted non SopDiff setting, only minor adjustment required on this car but could
be different on others. IMO you will not notice that much difference but with the "evil SopDiff version" the feel for over-understeer is a bit clearer and just slightly more road response,
neither one feels floaty like a boat or hoover craft to me.

A - with SopDiff

<config>
<value TopologyVersion="4" />

<value SpindleMasterScale="0.34" />

<value SpindleArm="15.0" />

<value SpindleFxScale="1.0" />
<value SpindleFxLoPass="0.2" />

<value SpindleFyScale="0.52" />
<value SpindleFyLoPass="0.0" />

<value SpindleFzScale="0.7" />
<value SpindleFzLoPass="0.0" />

<value SpindleMzScale="0.7" />
<value SpindleMzLoPass="0.0" />

<value SoPScale="0.34" />

<value SoPLateral="0.0" />
<value SoPDifferential="0.7" />
<value SoPLoPass="0.0" />
------------------------------------------------
B - no SopDiff

<config>
<value TopologyVersion="4" />

<value SpindleMasterScale="0.34" />

<value SpindleArm="15.0" />

<value SpindleFxScale="0.6" />
<value SpindleFxLoPass="0.2" />

<value SpindleFyScale="0.6" />
<value SpindleFyLoPass="0.0" />

<value SpindleFzScale="0.6" />
<value SpindleFzLoPass="0.0" />

<value SpindleMzScale="0.75" />
<value SpindleMzLoPass="0.0" />

<value SoPScale="0.0" />

<value SoPLateral="0.0" />
<value SoPDifferential="0.0" />
<value SoPLoPass="0.0" />

RomKnight
22-02-2017, 12:33
Yes. And yet when we start playing with the dials and find a personal preference that we like, like... no SoP, we're then immediately told that we might as well just start from scratch, because that's not how it works. So.... conundrum. :confused: Because that happens all the time. Go look at the FFB thread whenever someone mentions they like the feel better with lower FF, they're immediately told not to touch FF. That you can't do that. So, like I said... In one breath... "It's there for you to customize to your liking." And then in the next... "You're doing it wrong."

Imagine you're hurt and have low tolerance to pain. Other's might say is just a scratch but who the hell are they to tell you that you're wrong? So I tried the tweakers - I actually follow "Jack" on pC1 and still on pC2 and I repect him (and others) and his/their work as it helped so many with pCARS - but ended up not using none and tweak myself. With FFB being highly personal and subjective I though I'd better do it myself instead. I also tend to avoid trends so... I'm biased here.

Point is, if you're doing something with the FFB and you feel the difference and you find what you're looking for, why let anyone tell you different. It's YOUR rig, YOU driving...

And I did just fine for a few years. As long as it is not clipping the Fxyz and Mz alone are more than enough to have decent FFB in pCARS, *for me*. Even if there were always a lack of "road connectivity" in pCARS in comparison. But the others by default are actually too intrusive and instead of informing, interfere... again, IMO so I ended up tweaking rF2, r3E config FILES by hand and AC too on what was possible...

I still stand behind what I wrote before and we can agree to disagree :)

GrimeyDog
22-02-2017, 12:37
^^^ Exactly This^^^ But Looking at it in a tweeker Fike makes it Look overly Complicated!!!
Its just as simple as Setting in Car SOP Master Scale vale to "0" ---Readjust the Fx,Fz,Fz,Mz to bring out the Feel you like best---> Then Readjust Spindle Master Scale to Set the Car FFB strength that you feel is Good for that Car:yes:... In this case the Corvette C7R.

The FFB is Not Complicated once you understand what the Different settings do:yes:

Haiden
22-02-2017, 13:09
SopDifferential the cause of evil?

For A/B comparison Chevrolet_Corvette_C7R tweaker of my Low Vertical Load set and an adapted non SopDiff setting, only minor adjustment required on this car but could
be different on others. IMO you will not notice that much difference but with the "evil SopDiff version" the feel for over-understeer is a bit clearer and just slightly more road response,
neither one feels floaty like a boat or hoover craft to me.


This is part of the problem. You're misinterpreting what I mean by floatiness. There's no definitive term for what we're talking about, so people describe it in different ways--floaty, disconnected, frictionless, etc. But it has nothing to do with the boat-like handling that you sometimes experience in certain cars.

I explained it here. Again, not definitive term, but I think it's clear that I'm talking about boat-like handling.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?49683-Project-Cars-Assetto-Corsa-comparison&p=1324639&viewfull=1#post1324639

Mahjik even responded saying he understood and that that type of friction isn't in the PCars model.

Mahjik
22-02-2017, 13:17
So are you saying they use the defaults setting at shows?

I honestly don't know. I do know that they typically use Direct Drive wheels for shows in which that FFB setup is completely different than non-DD wheels. I'm just telling you what any software developer is going to tell you if you ask for their "recommended settings" (regardless of what they may or may not do themselves).

konnos
22-02-2017, 13:21
If I may say so, your no-SoP files seemed a little better for me. With SoP the wheel is a little tighter but it is also very hard to counter steer because as soon as you are done correcting, you are hit with full force from the other side of the wheel... it's that lack of progressiveness that is the problem in this case. However, the C7 is not so much a boat, it's a GT3 afterall so it is not very discernible, only at very low speeds (like the donnington 2nd last corner) I am left guessing at grip levels.

Having said that, it's not SoP that is the evil, I actually like SoP. But it is just another extra force on top of everything and I think it is the little drop of water that spills it from its glass. I just used Fy and SoP and all others to 0.0 and it was still nice to drive, if not slightly more progressive and "predictable" when going in and out of corners. It's those tankslapper moment that baffle me in some cars. You think you are ok and on the edge of corner grip and boom, unsaveable.

During the weekend I might sit and lower your balances a little for my wheel. Like, more Fy and less of everything else.

Again thank you for the effort and time. Can I ask you one more thing please? The GT3s are pretty stable in most places, could you re-do a road car like the Focus to get an idea what kind of level of forces you are concentrating on each car?

GrimeyDog
22-02-2017, 13:29
Imagine you're hurt and have low tolerance to pain. Other's might say is just a scratch but who the hell are they to tell you that you're wrong? So I tried the tweakers - I actually follow "Jack" on pC1 and still on pC2 and I repect him (and others) and his/their work as it helped so many with pCARS - but ended up not using none and tweak myself. With FFB being highly personal and subjective I though I'd better do it myself instead. I also tend to avoid trends so... I'm biased here.

Point is, if you're doing something with the FFB and you feel the difference and you find what you're looking for, why let anyone tell you different. It's YOUR rig, YOU driving...

And I did just fine for a few years. As long as it is not clipping the Fxyz and Mz alone are more than enough to have decent FFB in pCARS, *for me*. Even if there were always a lack of "road connectivity" in pCARS in comparison. But the others by default are actually too intrusive and instead of informing, interfere... again, IMO so I ended up tweaking rF2, r3E config FILES by hand and AC too on what was possible...

I still stand behind what I wrote before and we can agree to disagree :)


Agree 100% if it feels Good to you it is Good... The Best FFB is the FFB you are most used to that provides the Feel thats Right for you.

I also Respect Jack Spade for his tweeker work but i found his files did Not give a Feel that was right for Me.

With that said what i discoverd about JS Files is that they are Not Tweeker Friendly... It is Very difficult to Retweek his work to get a personalized individual FFB Feel.... This is Mainly because of the use of High RAG (+1.0 or Higher)...High RAG Demands that you use Low in Car Masters... But thats the thing that Kills the Very FFB you are trying to feel at the source.....While High RAG may feel good on 1 car it will feel off on other cars that put out Higher FFB forces... As i Noted in the RAG 200 -vs- RAG 100 Video with the Gt3 Mclaren High RAG feels Good but in the Gt3 Ruf it Feels Horrible due to the over exagerated FFB Forces....therefore IMO RAG should Not be used above 1.0 because the FB Is Still Very Strong at RAG 1.0.... RAG 1.0 Leaves space to use in Car Masters 100 for the individual user to adjust + or - the in Car FFB strength to best suit the wheel used and Car being Driven.

My whole point is Not to Lock people into using My Tweek but to Create a open tweek and inform them what settings do so that every 1 can find their FFB sweet spot that best fits the Wheel used and individual FFB taste.

High RAG really Resstricts and Confines the FFB system into a 1 trick pony that can Not be Re-tweeked to individual taste.

Not to Mention that Pcars is supposed to be based on Pure Steering Rack FFB forces... So the Question still Remains why Limit the Very Forces you are trying to Feel at the Source by using Low in Car Masters???

and as always i welcome any Comments and Critiques made based on testing...
Im Not Debating whats right whats wrong... there is No Need for that...The FFB is bigger than just 1 persons Idea...FFB tweeking is about helping people find their way to Good FFB by Comparing Notes and sharing Ideas.

Everything i post Can Be Prooven True or False with a Few minutes of Testing.
again all Comments and Critiques based on testing I welcome.

Haiden
22-02-2017, 13:31
Imagine you're hurt and have low tolerance to pain. Other's might say is just a scratch but who the hell are they to tell you that you're wrong? So I tried the tweakers - I actually follow "Jack" on pC1 and still on pC2 and I repect him (and others) and his/their work as it helped so many with pCARS - but ended up not using none and tweak myself. With FFB being highly personal and subjective I though I'd better do it myself instead. I also tend to avoid trends so... I'm biased here.

Point is, if you're doing something with the FFB and you feel the difference and you find what you're looking for, why let anyone tell you different. It's YOUR rig, YOU driving...

And I did just fine for a few years. As long as it is not clipping the Fxyz and Mz alone are more than enough to have decent FFB in pCARS, *for me*. Even if there were always a lack of "road connectivity" in pCARS in comparison. But the others by default are actually too intrusive and instead of informing, interfere... again, IMO so I ended up tweaking rF2, r3E config FILES by hand and AC too on what was possible...

I still stand behind what I wrote before and we can agree to disagree :)

I totally get that. And I agree. I respect Jack and his work. Hell, I used his files. They feel great and are extremely convenient. All I said was that I don't like the lack of friction (better than floatiness, since that has other meanings) in the PCars FFB model. My opinion. I said that I find that the more RA is used, the less friction I feel. My Opinion, based on my experience. I said that when SoP Diff is used, I feel less friction. Again, my opinion, based on my experience. I don't think SoP is evil. I don't think it's an unnecessary scale. I simply think/said that when it's on, I feel less friction. All I was doing was sharing an experience. It's up to me to decide whether or not I feel that using SoP is worth losing what friction. If anyone else can use the information I shared, great. If not, fine. :)

I don't race much in PCars MP anymore. And when I do, it usually a public session and so riddled with idiots that trying to actually win the race is just too frustrating a task, so I just try to clear the idiots and then race the cars around me. For that reason, I don't really care if dropping SoP diminishes the dynamic range a bit, if it feels better. Most of my playtime in PCars is now limited to SP, and I'm just in it for the fun--weather, time transitions, and a few tracks I miss driving sometimes. I'm not searching for the perfect FFB anymore, because IMO--based on what I like (i.e. a sense of friction), PCars doesn't offer that. So, for me, there's no point in chasing the rabbit anymore. I chased it for quite some time, because I was on console and had no other reference, other than Forza. But as soon as I moved to PC and started playing other titles, I realized that PCars was different. It took me a while to realize it the friction that I was missing. I now know that that is simply something that isn't present in PCars, so... the search is over. All I can do now, is try to make it feel better, in my subjective sense.

I hope PCars2 has a better sense of friction. If it does, it will probably become a favorite in my library. If not, I'll enjoy it for what it is.

Mahjik
22-02-2017, 13:55
FWIW, I find with pCARS1 FFB that little is more. I appreciated before and still do today all the work that Jack does with his settings. His approach is much more organized and scientific than what I could ever do in this space (I just move settings, see how they feel, and keep moving things). I do use some SoP, but the values are lower than what Jack has in his files. I like a little SoP, but too much for me has me fighting the wheel too much.

I'm going to use part of someone comments from a similar discussion. I don't recall if it was Jack's of bmanic's comments, but since we are not physically in cars, some exaggeration of FFB may need to be required to provide better immersion for those without motion and tactile devices.

RomKnight
22-02-2017, 13:57
Well, moving on I can say to you that you'll be pleased with pC2 especially if your main worry is FFB. Even with defaults is WAY better than pC1 wrt to pretty much everything including what you mention. Actually, especially what you mention :)

Jack Spade
22-02-2017, 14:26
If I may say so, your no-SoP files seemed a little better for me. With SoP the wheel is a little tighter but it is also very hard to counter steer because as soon as you are done correcting, you are hit with full force from the other side of the wheel... it's that lack of progressiveness that is the problem in this case. However, the C7 is not so much a boat, it's a GT3 afterall so it is not very discernible, only at very low speeds (like the donnington 2nd last corner) I am left guessing at grip levels.

Having said that, it's not SoP that is the evil, I actually like SoP. But it is just another extra force on top of everything and I think it is the little drop of water that spills it from its glass. I just used Fy and SoP and all others to 0.0 and it was still nice to drive, if not slightly more progressive and "predictable" when going in and out of corners. It's those tankslapper moment that baffle me in some cars. You think you are ok and on the edge of corner grip and boom, unsaveable.

During the weekend I might sit and lower your balances a little for my wheel. Like, more Fy and less of everything else.

Again thank you for the effort and time. Can I ask you one more thing please? The GT3s are pretty stable in most places, could you re-do a road car like the Focus to get an idea what kind of level of forces you are concentrating on each car?

The Focus is a FWD, not a good example, also SopDiff is set extremely low anyway, so here the Ruf GTR3 instead.

<config>
<value TopologyVersion="4" />

<value SpindleMasterScale="0.45" />

<value SpindleArm="10.0" />

<value SpindleFxScale="0.7" />
<value SpindleFxLoPass="0.2" />

<value SpindleFyScale="0.65" />
<value SpindleFyLoPass="0.0" />

<value SpindleFzScale="0.6" />
<value SpindleFzLoPass="0.0" />

<value SpindleMzScale="0.8" />
<value SpindleMzLoPass="0.0" />

<value SoPScale="0.0" />

<value SoPLateral="0.0" />
<value SoPDifferential="0.0" />
<value SoPLoPass="0.0" />

konnos
22-02-2017, 19:44
Well say what you will. I used your regular folder 10 did 5 laps in Donnington. I used MaximumsN's tweaked file for the RUF CTR3 and improved that lap time by 0.7 and then used the one you gave me just now and improved the improved time by 1second. I was more confident in the grip under braking etc and was able to push harder. I am not used to the car and I dont run donnington very often but i know the general racing line. So even though SoP might be good to put in there, i might put like 2/3 of force and lower Fz and Fx a little. That is for another time.

Thank you very much for your time Jack, I really appreciate it.

Mahjik
22-02-2017, 20:07
My settings "ratios" are similar to Jacks, but the values are different that I used for my G25:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?44343-Is-there-a-way-to-copy-my-FFB-setting-to-ALL-my-cars-in-one-go&p=1218603&viewfull=1#post1218603

morpwr
22-02-2017, 20:43
Well, moving on I can say to you that you'll be pleased with pC2 especially if your main worry is FFB. Even with defaults is WAY better than pC1 wrt to pretty much everything including what you mention. Actually, especially what you mention :)

Heres an idea. Next time somebody brings up a known issue you might want to lead with your last two statements instead of acting like it doesn't exist for 3 full pages on the forum then saying its been corrected. I know for myself if you had just said that from the beginning I would have been perfectly happy with that answer. Sorry guys we missed it a little bit in pcars 1 but its been addressed and being corrected in pcars 2. See how easy that was?

hkraft300
22-02-2017, 21:21
With different tyres and physics it might just be a different kind of "floaty" :rolleyes:

BTW I don't know what this "floaty" really feels like.
My g29 is certainly more active than my Polo steering :o

MaximusN
22-02-2017, 21:28
With different tyres and physics it might just be a different kind of "floaty" :rolleyes:

BTW I don't know what this "floaty" really feels like.
My g29 is certainly more active than my Polo steering :o

That goes for most cars with powersteering I guess. If you put a camera in the real car and fed the images and the 'FFB' from the steering column into a sim I think quite a few people would say that the feedback is unrealistic and numb. :)

gotdirt410sprintcar
22-02-2017, 21:39
Floaty means one thing i need a motion simlater, thats really the bottom line no arguing here. If i had it or you all had it there would be no Floaty aka num / no FFB in straight line / what you think is Floaty .

So the meaning of Floaty is lack of g forces that we feel on are body.

morpwr
22-02-2017, 21:51
With different tyres and physics it might just be a different kind of "floaty" :rolleyes:

BTW I don't know what this "floaty" really feels like.
My g29 is certainly more active than my Polo steering :o

Honestly if I had never switched to pc id never know the difference either. I always thought it felt weird but didn't know exactly why. Sure there were things I didn't exactly like but it was still miles ahead of gt. On ps4 you don't have anything to compare to except ac and I don't know how far that has come since I last played it on ps4. If you had a chance to play anything other then pcars on pc youd know immediately what we mean. The cars feel like youre floating just above the road and not really connected to it in pcars. If you ever get a chance to play,ac on pc,r3e,rfactor,automobilista youd immediately notice the difference. If they fix this one thing in pcars2 the ffb is going to be awesome and I really hope they do. If it wasn't for pcars I wouldn't have got back into this and built a gaming pc so I could have more options for gear. As soon as pcars2 goes up for sale they will get my money.:)

hkraft300
22-02-2017, 21:57
Floaty means one thing i need a motion simlater, thats really the bottom line no arguing here. If i had it or you all had it there would be no Floaty aka num / no FFB in straight line / what you think is Floaty .

So the meaning of Floaty is lack of g forces that we feel on are body.

That's definitely one way about it, undeniably :)

morpwr
22-02-2017, 21:59
Floaty means one thing i need a motion simlater, thats really the bottom line no arguing here. If i had it or you all had it there would be no Floaty aka num / no FFB in straight line / what you think is Floaty .

So the meaning of Floaty is lack of g forces that we feel on are body.

No has nothing to do with that. Its the lack of weight or grip feel from the tires in pcars. Not floaty like driving in a car with no shocks. Floaty for lack of a better term like actually not connected to the road. Apparently from the reviews ive seen its been fixed in pcars 2 and from what we have been told here now.

Haiden
22-02-2017, 22:07
Floaty means one thing i need a motion simlater, thats really the bottom line no arguing here. If i had it or you all had it there would be no Floaty aka num / no FFB in straight line / what you think is Floaty .

So the meaning of Floaty is lack of g forces that we feel on are body.


No has nothing to do with that. Its the lack of weight or grip feel from the tires in pcars. Not floaty like driving in a car with no shocks. Floaty for lack of a better term like actually not connected to the road. Apparently from the reviews ive seen its been fixed in pcars 2 and from what we have been told here now.

Exactly. Floatiness was a bad term/word, but at the time I really couldn't think of anything else, and that's word I'd heard used before. Personally, I think frictionless is a better word to describe it. PCars simulates grip and slip through wheel weight, shifting from heavy load to light load. But there no sense friction and it doesn't feel like the car is planted on the ground. This is different from the slow sway boaty feel that some older cars and road cars have. Like Morpwr said, if you ever played one of the other sims on PC, you immediately feel the difference.

Mahjik
22-02-2017, 22:44
If you ever get a chance to play,ac on pc,r3e,rfactor,automobilista youd immediately notice the difference.

FWIW, I have every current PC sim except for R3E (granted is F2P with transactions)..

morpwr
23-02-2017, 01:14
FWIW, I have every current PC sim except for R3E (granted is F2P with transactions)..

I figured you did. I wasn't saying any is better then pcars, I'm not a fanboy(yeah I know that's taboo on here)of any game. I play them all to some degree. Just trying to point out the difference between pc and console. There are more options on pc. I'm glad to hear the issue was addressed in pcars 2.

Mahjik
23-02-2017, 03:10
I'm glad to hear the issue was addressed in pcars 2.

The FFB is being enhanced in pC2. However, I won't say what you are specifically looking for is there or not.. i.e. it's hard to confirm something that I may not notice nor have an issue with myself. In short, you'll likely have to find out for yourself if the enhanced FFB of pC2 is something you enjoy yourself.

lancashirelad
23-02-2017, 04:07
The FFB is being enhanced in pC2. However, I won't say what you are specifically looking for is there or not.. i.e. it's hard to confirm something that I may not notice nor have an issue with myself. In short, you'll likely have to find out for yourself if the enhanced FFB of pC2 is something you enjoy yourself.

I think if pc2 force feedback feels like the car tyre is rubbing and connected to the track we will all be happy. That is the main complaint in pc1 imo. The racing/ options/ graphics only need tweaking and are fantastic when they all work together. Get the ff right and you have without doubt the best racing game ever. I understand p,cars uses a dynamic ff compared to other racers but if it doesn't feel right it's a waste. Fingers and toes are crossed. :)

Mascot
23-02-2017, 07:30
I think if pc2 force feedback feels like the car tyre is rubbing and connected to the track we will all be happy. That is the main complaint in pc1 imo. The racing/ options/ graphics only need tweaking and are fantastic when they all work together. Get the ff right and you have without doubt the best racing game ever. I understand p,cars uses a dynamic ff compared to other racers but if it doesn't feel right it's a waste. Fingers and toes are crossed. :)

That's all I want.

morpwr
23-02-2017, 10:50
The FFB is being enhanced in pC2. However, I won't say what you are specifically looking for is there or not.. i.e. it's hard to confirm something that I may not notice nor have an issue with myself. In short, you'll likely have to find out for yourself if the enhanced FFB of pC2 is something you enjoy yourself.

It seems the issue I'm talking about has been addressed. Sim racing paddock mentioned the floating issue wasn't noticed in the 4 hours he had to try pcars 2. So I'm hoping. Like many here feel if that one issue is resolved/reduced pcars2 will be hard to beat in terms of the ffb. I get why you cant/wont say. Don't worry I wont come back in September and say well mahik said it was fixed.lol

Sankyo
23-02-2017, 11:08
Sim racing paddock mentioned the floating issue wasn't noticed in the 4 hours he had to try pcars 2.
You make it sound like a punishment :D

morpwr
23-02-2017, 12:02
You make it sound like a punishment :D

Can you hand out my punishment?:)

cluck
23-02-2017, 12:08
Can you hand out my punishment?:)You are specifically asking to be banned? Weird.

:p

morpwr
23-02-2017, 12:24
You are specifically asking to be banned? Weird.

:p

That wasn't really what I was hoping for.lol

RomKnight
23-02-2017, 13:35
@morpwr

half guilty as it was a bit of a vent. But my post wasn't targeted at anyone specifically. It's just to point out a general fact more than anything else. In this case it's FFB.

I could've should said "give a fish to a man he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish..." and save my poor keyboard too :)

Also, I would've ruined 3 pages of discussion... :p

BTW, there were others would could've just said ffb in pc2 is better before me and for me it's an implicit thing/something I simply assume it would be improved. Why the hell wouldn't SMS improve it? It's proven that they listen by now (if someone still had doubts).

BTW, AFAIK you'll still be able to tinker with it because again, why should SMS remove the user their power to completely f'up... I mean, customize the FFB to their taste?

Haiden
23-02-2017, 15:57
@morpwr

half guilty as it was a bit of a vent. But my post wasn't targeted at anyone specifically. It's just to point out a general fact more than anything else. In this case it's FFB.

I could've should said "give a fish to a man he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish..." and save my poor keyboard too :)

Also, I would've ruined 3 pages of discussion... :p

BTW, there were others would could've just said ffb in pc2 is better before me and for me it's an implicit thing/something I simply assume it would be improved. Why the hell wouldn't SMS improve it? It's proven that they listen by now (if someone still had doubts).

BTW, AFAIK you'll still be able to tinker with it because again, why should SMS remove the user their power to completely f'up... I mean, customize the FFB to their taste?

Spoken like someone that truly believes FFB is subjective and a matter of personal taste, instead of restricted to a specific mindset or method. :dejection:

Also, I don't think anyone thought FFB wouldn't be improved in PCars2. But "improved" is a general statement. There was a specific issue being questioned. "Improved" doesn't say anything specific. And since half of you don't seem to think there's anything lost in frictionless FFB, why would adding friction be seen as an improvement? :indecisiveness:

RomKnight
23-02-2017, 16:34
Isn't FFB subjective? I mean some want it like a real wheel on their car with the power steering adjusted to the lightest, others need more info or lots of weigth or whatever (is just to make a point) because, in the end, the vast majority of us mere mortals only have a wheel as a poor substitute for gravity.

And I'm pretty sure I can still find some who can drive without FFB (on a wheel, not pad users :) )

And allow me to quote myself wrt to the "general statement".


Even with defaults is WAY better than pC1 wrt to pretty much everything including what you mention. Actually, especially what you mention


Generalisation is this (and let me quote you now :) ):


And since half of you

And it would be seen as an improvement for what the "other half" thinks maybe? :) With over 2million copies sold in pc1 I'd say that even half is a good baseline to please though.

Seriously, I don't think that it's not a matter of taste on this or that parameter/feel in FFB. It could be better (we all agree) especially on the friction side to get the "connection" to the road. But it's not like it's undriveable, especially with the tweakers from Jack or anyone else.

I've said this before somewhere; think it's a mix of expectations, taste AND what one is prepared to "overlook" and adapt. IWO it is good that at we at least know what we like and/or want but sometimes we need to adjust because in this case, it's not a game breaker and pCARS has so much more to offer that it would be a waste to pass the oportunity to enjoy everything else because of this. It's not like the cars drive on ICE all the time... yet ;) :D

The good part of this thread though is that it'll be irrelevant when pC2 comes out :) and hopefully you too, will be "here" to say "it's an improvement allright" :)