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View Full Version : Using a controller to play a PS4 game....unrealistic expectations?



Colonicus
18-01-2017, 01:31
So I've got a pretty feather light touch when it comes to console racers, always get comments about how I don't seem to 'hold' the controller it just rests in my hand. I've found increasing the sensitivity to the point when other people struggle on other games makes me noticeably quicker, so I assumed I was just a bit weird and needed some unusual settings.

I've tried getting my controller setting tuned to my liking and I've officially given up after 5 hours.
I managed 3 (yes 3) clean quick(ish) laps a few minutes ago, but then I switched to a different car (from a Clio Cup Car to a Toyota GT86) and it was all way off again. I've even resorted to having all the driver aids on (was just using ABS and TC initially until I got my eye in) and that just killed all feeling, and I still was struggling to manage a lap without going off or spinning. I won't even talk about trying to drive a kart or an LMP1.

Is it crazy to ask the game developers, you know the guys who made the game, to provide a game that can actually be played without having to tune your controller? It's not that hard surely, other developers manage it and still give you a good experience with a wheel.

The car either doesn't turn at all then suddenly launches itself to full lock or it has a delay and abruptly kicks into a slide or understeers wide. Or you get something that feels reasonable for a while then tries to kill you when you glance a curb or have the audacity to lift through a gentle curve.

I'm going to sound arrogant but I'm not just being a noob. I've been playing racing games on consoles since the PS1 (I was the kid in the playground charging 5 to take your memory card and unlock all the licences for you on Gran Turismo, and then getting all gold by the next day just to show off) and I've played some more serious sims on PC. I'm usually pretty competitive online, can mix it within a few tenths of the fastest in time trials and I'm usually only a little quicker with a wheel compared to a controller. So I should be able to drive a Clio Cup Car round a track once...just once, without crashing, spinning, running wide, understeering, oversteering, simply not even turning, swerving of the track instantly at high speed by breathing at the controller etc. I'm not asking to be an instant god of racing in an hour or two, just to actually play the damn game.

It's pretty clear Project Cars is a pretty deep simulation and I'm not asking for it to be need for speed or even Gran Turismo, just something that's basically playable with a controller.
I'm sure it's great with a wheel, haven't tried yet because the PS4 doesn't support mine (I'll save that rant for another day...).

Its the most frustrating gaming experience I've ever had, and it's made so much worse by there clearly being a really good game right there, just a few settings tweaks away. I might give it another go once the rage has subsided, but I doubt it. I'm actually glad I don't have a physical copy or I'd have burned the bloody thing.

I guess my racing stays on PC until the new gran turismo comes out and manages to defy the laws of programming by actually being usable with the primary control system for the console.

hkraft300
18-01-2017, 02:24
I played pcars for >1year with the ds4. It didn't take me too long to find settings I can play with, but it kept most cars unfriendly. I didn't enjoy road cars, classics, but high downforce prototype and open wheelers were ok.
What you're describing could be a result of the type of car, tyre compounds, setup and weather. Some of these weren't obvious to me until I got the wheel. There's a bloody lot going on that can be overlooked.
Example: the Lotus 49 is, ffb and handling, an absolute blast on the 67/68 tyres. Progressive, easy to control on the limit. But on 72 tyres it snaps with the slightest mistake.
Going to different cars it could be the steering ratio, soft suspension (Lotus 98T default is pretty soft), understeer, tyre pressures...
Eliminate the variables.

beep
13-02-2017, 15:51
Project Cars developers should really play DriveClub with DS4 (either motion control or with stick) and learn from it. You just play DC instantly and with pleasure with DS4. In PC you fight to survive on track or just swear how unplayable it is with DS4. I don't know how it is possible to release a product that has not properly working support for this controller.

Siberian Tiger
13-02-2017, 15:55
Drive Club has a much simplifier Physic Modell underneath! Please keep that in mind...

We all know that pCars 1 had not the "best in class" Gamepad support, but it was not that bad...
With tweakings you will find a Setting that will fit your Style...

I play on PC with my Wheel, but on PS4 i also play only with the DS4...

All i can say is that the Devs learned a lot from pCars 1 and his Gamepad Support to do it even better in the next Round ;)

beep
13-02-2017, 17:48
This has nothing to do with Physics Model of the game but with proper translation of controller movements. Steering at low speeds/full stop is exaggerated/over sensitive and the car jumps like crazy from one side to the other. Steering with high speeds with high Speed Sensitivity makes the car drivable on stright line but not in corners.

Another example is Live For Speed where you can drive using keyboard and it is playable while PC is not.

I know such games should be played with Wheel but PS4 comes with DS4 so any game should be playable with it.

hkraft300
13-02-2017, 23:11
It has a lot to do with physics.
Accurate vehicle+tyre model and physics means cars will behave close to real life.
That in itself makes the use of a gamepad super difficult any way you put it. However the human brain is a remarkable thing therefore it's far from impossible.
If you find the correct settings for your style it's perfectly fine, in fact I'd call it better than GT/FM/DC.
I had to practice for the settings I had as I like it accurate and I'm not a flicker.
I see online players that flick-steer and have their sensitivity far too high, not enough speed sensitivity or filtering, often over-correcting and flying into the wall.
But hey, blame the game for not being dumbed down for gamepad handling.

beep
14-02-2017, 08:31
Getting proper movement translation from controller to the game has nothing to do with physics. It's like you are saying that a sportsman should run with higheels not with proper sport shoes. These are boots and these are boots too so you shoud win a race no matter what shoes you are using, right?

I have been playing many sim racing games in the past (RF, Netkar, LFS, GTR etc) only with the wheel and I know it's the best way to play such games. Joypads has limited range of movement so I was not expecting to have similar experience. I have bought PS4 and Project Cars and DriveClub to play it from a couch with a DS4. I'm dissapointed how the controller behaves comparing to DriveClub. I know these are different titles but they are designed to be played with DS4 and PC is not the best example.

hkraft300
14-02-2017, 14:45
Getting proper movement translation from controller to the game has nothing to do with physics. It's like you are saying that a sportsman should run with higheels not with proper sport shoes. These are boots and these are boots too so you shoud win a race no matter what shoes you are using, right?...

The physics is important because...
OK take your wheel and play a sim, then switch to a game with "lesser" physics eg GT/FM/driveclub or anything terrible you can get your hands on that's compatible. Nfs, The Crew or something silly. You're still using the same wheel but because the physics is bad in the game you won't enjoy the wheel. Where the physics and ffb are good, you'll love the wheel. It's fit for its purpose.
Pcars has very accurate, unfettered, unfiltered and direct control of the cars with the gamepad. The thumb stick has very little range of movement: like calibrating your wheel for 30 degrees instead of 900/1080.
As much as I and many others enjoy the unadulterated control with a game pad, it takes practice and fine motor control.
Other games (DC, GT, Forza etc) all have "filters" for gamers steering, making it easier for casual racers. It's subtle "steering assist" you can't switch off.
So really, pcars has proper movement from controller to the game. Others don't.
Your analogy is terrible by the way.
However I regularly get my arse kicked by a few DS4 users that are super smooth and fast.

beep
14-02-2017, 15:43
You can play and win with DS4 if you want to. There are players who play FPP shooters with it and are pretty good compared to players who play such games on a computer with mouse. But this is not a point. A proper translation of a controller to the game is the key no matter undelaying game physics. I've plugged DS4 controller to my computer and launched LFS. I've adjusted few settings which took me 5 minutes and then enjoyed driving with DS4. I can't feel the same with Project Cars after few hours of twaeking sensitivity, filter, dead zones and speed values in game's settings. If the game was properly designed it would not need such twaeaking like it is with PC. If you don't feel my comparison to DC is fair take sims like iRacing or LFS. They don't need bunch of settings to play it right. They just work and feel like they should / like you expect to.

Mad Al
14-02-2017, 16:58
Have you tried all three modes... depending on your driving style with a pad, mode 2 may be a better starting point

beep
14-02-2017, 18:11
Mad Al, thanks for suggestion. I will look into this althought I think I've tried everything ;)

Olijke Poffer
14-02-2017, 18:15
I just use motion tilt steering. Works like a charm. Of course it is not a wheel but it works really well.

beep
14-02-2017, 18:31
I've tried this but it behaved jerky and not precise like in DC. I will give it a try once more with some other Sensitivity tweaks.

Olijke Poffer
14-02-2017, 18:35
No problems at all. Just as good as in drive club for me. :triumphant:

beep
14-02-2017, 18:41
Sounds promising ;)

beep
14-02-2017, 21:23
Using motion tilt steering does feel better but not that perfect like in DC. I will have to play with sensitivity more to make it right, I hope. Using motion tilt makes steering wheel constantly shaking like an old lady even there is Filtering set to 100. Looks like filtering is not working at all. There is also stupid vibration on controller while braking. Feels like in the old car with broken brakes. Setting FF to 0 does not remove it at all.

hkraft300
14-02-2017, 23:31
About the modes: you must remember/note settings that are close to what you like, switch modes, then RE-do the settings. Or it defaults to each mode's presets.
On the wheel, mode 3 steering sensitivity 50 gives 1:1, so I'd assume that's the one to avoid on the DS4 :D

Steering sensitivity won't slow it down a great deal. It only adjusts input v output. It'd be handy to see the graph to make more sense of it.

Controller filtering will slow it down, and speed sensitivity will restrict steering input according to speed. So you won't put it in to the wall with a small correction at 300kmh.

beep
16-02-2017, 09:31
After few hours of testing of using DS4 motion controller I feel it is the best way to play PC with this controller. I have set steering Sensitivity to 50 and Speed Sensitivity to 50 and Dead zone to 0. For me its the best compromise of being able to drive steady on high seed and to be able to steer smoothly on low speed. It's still not perfect (DriveClub translates DS4 movements the best) and varies when switching to another car. Going with Steering Sensitivity below 50 introduces an unwanted Dead Zone at centre. I don't know if it's a bug or its designed that way but it is not drivable that way.

The best movement translation would be like it is done in DC or LFS where there is a gamm cuvrve applied to the steering movement:
- slow and precise wheel movement in the centre while rotating/moving the controller up to certain point, something like 30-45 degrees,
- gradually faster, going up to the full lock after rotating it more and more.
This should be done without any Speed Sensitivity.

Here is an example of mouse movement translation to the steering which is done in LFS:

https://youtu.be/vTV8mT7Wl-U

hkraft300
16-02-2017, 10:15
The best movement translation would be like it is done in DC or LFS where there is a gamm cuvrve applied to the steering movement:
- slow and precise wheel movement in the centre while rotating/moving the controller up to certain point, something like 30-45 degrees,
- gradually faster, going up to the full lock after rotating it more and more.
This should be done without any Speed Sensitivity.

Here is an example of mouse movement translation to the steering which is done in LFS:

https://youtu.be/vTV8mT7Wl-U

One of the controller modes does provide that input/output response you describe.
I couldn't tell you which one though lol as there's no input/output graph with the controller settings.

Low steering sensitivity doesn't introduce a deadzone: it's just that there's very low output and then it suddenly ramps up. Maybe.

A bit of controller filtering may also help by adding a bit of delay to the steering so it's not too jerky near the centre of the stick.

beep
16-02-2017, 10:24
hkraft300, thanks for suggestions, I will go though all modes to compare them.

Low steering sensitivity should not introduce a deadzone (Maybe) but it feels like there is one... there is no whell movement when I'm rotating the controller at 2-3 degree range at the centre.

Enabling filtering feels like not having any impact on the steering... will go through it again though. Maybe I have not noticed it.

beep
16-02-2017, 15:58
I've worked out some new settings, even better than before. I've tried this at Bathurst in an old Mercedes AMG.
My settings for DS4 motion controller are:

all deadzones – 0
steering sensitivity – 50
brake and throttle sensitivity – 30
speed sensitivity – 60
filtering – 10
Soft steering dampening ON
Visual filter ON


They feel the closest to the feel of controller in DC or LFS

hkraft300
16-02-2017, 16:03
Good stuff!
I always used soft steering damping on ds4.
What mode did you use with those settings?

beep
16-02-2017, 17:15
I'm using mode 3 but I'm not sure if it matters. I think it's just an index of some predefined settings.

Jaroslav Turna
16-02-2017, 18:40
I'm using mode 3 but I'm not sure if it matters. I think it's just an index of some predefined settings.

it is not .. the 3 modes have various timings/speeds for turning the wheel as well as slightly modified steering curves. Those settings cannot be changed through menu.

hkraft300
16-02-2017, 22:34
I'm using mode 3 but I'm not sure if it matters. I think it's just an index of some predefined settings.


it is not .. the 3 modes have various timings/speeds for turning the wheel as well as slightly modified steering curves. Those settings cannot be changed through menu.

Makes a big difference when you're messing with sensitivity.
Also, don't expect to get it spot on like a magic setting.
Find something close to what you like and practice. Let your fingers adapt to it.

I think a lot of the unnecessary faffing about with ffb and gamepad settings is because people are trying different settings every few laps.
Take some time and acclimatise.

Dresden
17-02-2017, 05:57
Back in the day when the whole complaint first surfaced, Casey gave us his preferred settings for controller.

I have used them and never looked back.

Deadzone=10
Sensitivity=20
Speed sensitivity=70
Filtering=50
Input Mode=3"

hkraft300
17-02-2017, 06:25
My settings for DS4 controller were on mode 2.


all deadzones – 0
steering sensitivity – 30
brake and throttle sensitivity – 30
speed sensitivity – 35
filtering – 50
Soft steering dampening ON


Plus steering ratio 18:1.
Worked well for LMP1-2-3, Formula cars, Indy, Sauber, Lotus 78, 98T, basically anything high downforce.

beep
17-02-2017, 12:01
Are both settings for stick or motion controller?

For motion controller anything below 50 in steering sensitivity gives me an unwanted deadzone in the center :/

hkraft300
17-02-2017, 12:58
Na stick only.
I never tried motion.
Got me G29 instead :D
Judging by your settings you like it responsive.
Using motion for 1:1 you'd want controller mode 3 and sensitivity 50.
With that my wheel seems to match the screen wheel.
Also since you're using motion try lowering steering ratio in car setup to between 13.5-15:1. That'll get you quick response.

Olijke Poffer
17-02-2017, 14:08
I've worked out some new settings, even better than before. I've tried this at Bathurst in an old Mercedes AMG.
My settings for DS4 motion controller are:

all deadzones – 0
steering sensitivity – 50
brake and throttle sensitivity – 30
speed sensitivity – 60
filtering – 10
Soft steering dampening ON
Visual filter ON


They feel the closest to the feel of controller in DC or LFS

Nice settings. Just tried it myself.:victorious:

beep
17-02-2017, 14:35
Yes, they are nice but not perfect and don't suit every car. Some cars are oversensitive with this even with low/lowest steering ratio like hkraft300 suggested.



My settings for DS4 controller were on mode 2.


all deadzones 0
steering sensitivity 30
brake and throttle sensitivity 30
speed sensitivity 35
filtering 50
Soft steering dampening ON


Those feel nice but are oversensitive at centre. Little stick movement translates into way too fast reaction of a car.

As I said before the best woud be how it is done in LFS slow and precise in the centre, graduallly increasing up to the full lock. And no speed sensitivity.

Anyway I'm looking forward to buy a T300 wheel to bring out the full potential PC ;)

Olijke Poffer
18-02-2017, 08:22
Yeah.. sold my Thrustmaster with the Xbox two years ago. Xbox I don't regret but selling the wheel was a big mistake. Miss it every day. :concern:

hkraft300
18-02-2017, 09:51
Ye. You get used to it.
I should've maybe lowered the sensitivity.
It was fine with LMP and formula cars but not for classics and road cars.

liza456
14-09-2017, 05:27
Hello..
In case you're hoping to utilize a controller, at that point the PS4's DualShock 4 is an incredible decision. Its catch design incorporates every one of the catches that most controller-based PC diversions are made for, and you can even utilize its trackpad as a mouse input.