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honespc
27-06-2017, 07:02
Just as It is impossible to create a fair penalty system because the one and only required factor that can make it truly fair, in other words a human watcher or race director is always missingin from a MP race (but in league races with at least one race director watching and then render judgment on racers actions when watching the replay), then how will this affect the new ranking system?.

a) Classic sample 1. Typical crash from behind. You get pushed off the track and then get a penalty for cutting.
b) Classic sample 2. Lateral crash when overtaking and the many derived cases from it. The system, like always, misinterprets the situation and punish the car that wasn't responsible at all.
c) Other classic situations in which the system gives unfair penalties to the non-responsible driver for the crash.

Taking into account the penalty system will work as always (bad), but now along with another one that will match us online depending on how dirty at racing you are (the new MP Rankig System), then how will the situation be eventually?.

I mean for instance. I'm a clean driver, but I get rammed a lot and the penalty system usually punishes me instead of the crasher, as It happens in most racing games. This ends up granting me a "Dirty" racer status only, so I will get matched with the idiots 24/7.

How is the system gonna deal with this?

SlowBloke
27-06-2017, 08:30
It wont be perfect but we quietly hope it will be a lot better than what we have now.

Im pretty sure all of us will get a negative impact from this somewhere along the line.

However if you are getting hammered like this more than anyone else by a significant margin then in all honesty it might be time to reflect on your approach to close fights on the track.

Assumption is they cannot go into great details just yet but really even if they could - the proof is in the pudding... so its too soon to tell really....

honespc
28-06-2017, 06:32
It wont be perfect but we quietly hope it will be a lot better than what we have now.

Im pretty sure all of us will get a negative impact from this somewhere along the line.

However if you are getting hammered like this more than anyone else by a significant margin then in all honesty it might be time to reflect on your approach to close fights on the track.

Assumption is they cannot go into great details just yet but really even if they could - the proof is in the pudding... so its too soon to tell really....Well there's certainly no penalty system in pc1 but just the cutting detection. Here the problem is when you get pushed off the track from behind or from the side hard enough for the sustem to think you have cut the track as you try to return to it

The getting rammed 24/7 without being the trouble maker and then getting punished was a classic example of how things always go in other racing games with penalty systems. The point is that now there is a second system working along that will later match us with some certain type of racers, and if the system isn't capable of identifying the true trouble makers when a situation happens, then chances are that the fair player might end up being unfairly treated as a "dirty" racer by this system, and then getting matched with rammers

SlowBloke
28-06-2017, 09:11
Like I said yes it will hit us unfairly at times - but as an overall if its designed to be fit for purpose it should be a vast improvement overall.

They are not targeting you personally this applies to every single person - its in their interest to make it work as smoothly as possible.

If their testing does not show that then I doubt they would implement it.

Everyone has the same concern including SMS - lets wait and see.

FIA
09-07-2017, 03:06
Think of it as a deterrent , if every one in the race will try hard to not ram or be a bowling ball then the race will be clean and you will come out with a higher rank
but if there is a wrecker in there too you will need to try avoid them, in race or leave that race, try another lobby...

i think thay should use the old forza 3 rank system like rookie, to pro and veteran, legend start with 10 stars added for clean drivers also and removed if dirty in more than 3 race in a row
and forget the putting of people in a type of lobby like a dirty or clean race drivers lobby, let the people in the lobby see your rank...
so what happens if your a vary clean driver and you end up in a tenpin bowling lobby every race how to get out of this situation...

DECATUR PLAYA
09-07-2017, 03:48
Well there's certainly no penalty system in pc1 but just the cutting detection. Here the problem is when you get pushed off the track from behind or from the side hard enough for the sustem to think you have cut the track as you try to return to it

The getting rammed 24/7 without being the trouble maker and then getting punished was a classic example of how things always go in other racing games with penalty systems. The point is that now there is a second system working along that will later match us with some certain type of racers, and if the system isn't capable of identifying the true trouble makers when a situation happens, then chances are that the fair player might end up being unfairly treated as a "dirty" racer by this system, and then getting matched with rammers

First of all I don't know how the new system works. None of us do but from what I have read it seems that the system will take your whole race into consideration. If you get smashed off that may get you a negative on the rating but getting back on the track and running clean effective laps should be positive for the rating.

Remember this system is for trolls. Trolls aren't trying to run any clean laps which should take their rating down pretty quickly. It's gonna take a few weeks to separate but soon the racers and the trolls should seperate.

Also remember that the hardcore trolls will study this system and try to break it. It's just part of life some people are idiots. If you think that trolls aren't coming forget about it they will be there. What's more important than any ranking system is we as a community can't let these guys have our public rooms. When we let them have our public rooms they win and the game and the community loses.

hkraft300
09-07-2017, 12:02
I'll spend a few minutes when I host to kick anyone who can't keep it on the black top for a lap, wrecks a/any car twice /blatantly. I may have to change my tactic and let them play out and ruin their own rank.

Part of a successful race is also avoiding accidents. Unintentional wrecks from high risk maneuvers. If you don't foresee a high risk pass coming while you defend, well you'll get tangled and lose positions or dnf.
I think it's a valuable skill in sim and real racing.

Very keen for some more details on how this ranking system works.

FIA
10-07-2017, 03:50
In the heat of battle and at the start at say Hockenheimring or Laguna Seca where its 5 cars all going for the same bit of track there will be a crash
everyone will end up in the bowling ball lobby's full of people who park there cars in the middle of the track every lap. how will we undo being in them lobby's
in other words once your in them lobby's your never going to escape them.

dault3883
10-07-2017, 04:14
you can race going 3 or even 4 abreast going into some corners in F1 cars without wrecking anyone or even hitting them. iv done it on F1 2012 just yesterday. You just have to be VERY Carefull. i was 4 wide with me Michael Schumacher, Hamilton and another guy.

i had gotten a 10 place grid penalty after accidentally getting into the back of someone when i was trying to come into the pits in practice so i qualified P1 but had to start P11

hkraft300
10-07-2017, 07:06
everyone will end up in the bowling ball lobby's full of people who park there cars in the middle of the track every lap. how will we undo being in them lobby's


Leave.
The lobby host is clearly allowing that behaviour.
Don't stay in the crash lobbies.
I don't often join GT3 lobbies, but I often see bad behaviour in them.

David Semperger
10-07-2017, 12:32
Just as It is impossible to create a fair penalty system because the one and only required factor that can make it truly fair, in other words a human watcher or race director is always missingin from a MP race (but in league races with at least one race director watching and then render judgment on racers actions when watching the replay), then how will this affect the new ranking system?

Seeing how the rating system is my most anticipated feature of PC2 I wanted to chime in.

First of all, fairness is inherently human and as such subjective. Adding in a human element only makes judgments less objective, since every single one of us has a bias, whether we realize it or not, and this can creep in when we are interpreting the rules. This is the same reason why none of us will ever feel that a system is a 100% fair, since it would sometimes disagree with out internal feeling of what is "right". Therefore I by far prefer a well thought out, algorithm driven system, which will always treat everyone as equals and can be the direct representation of the rules of the game, leaving nothing to subjective interpretation. I'm sure I won't agree with it always and may not always feel fair to me personally, but at least I will know a 100% that it would reach the same decision, given the same variables, unlike a ruling body of people changing from race to race.


a) Classic sample 1. Typical crash from behind. You get pushed off the track and then get a penalty for cutting.
b) Classic sample 2. Lateral crash when overtaking and the many derived cases from it. The system, like always, misinterprets the situation and punish the car that wasn't responsible at all.
c) Other classic situations in which the system gives unfair penalties to the non-responsible driver for the crash.

Taking into account the penalty system will work as always (bad), but now along with another one that will match us online depending on how dirty at racing you are (the new MP Rankig System), then how will the situation be eventually?.

I mean for instance. I'm a clean driver, but I get rammed a lot and the penalty system usually punishes me instead of the crasher, as It happens in most racing games. This ends up granting me a "Dirty" racer status only, so I will get matched with the idiots 24/7.

How is the system gonna deal with this?

I think it's important to mention at this point that based on what I've read matchmaking will be optional. We should still be able to create custom, searchable lobbies, where we can specify a skill or safety rating requirement for drivers (below which someone couldn't join the session), or disable the rating requirement completely.

As for how the system will place blame in a crash? I had the same question on another forum. The answer is that it won't, the penalty in rating will be split evenly:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/q-a-with-slight-mad-studios-ian-bell-read-op.353715/page-22#post-11734343

Bilateral assignment, equally. We had some ideas about 'fault' assignment but it woulda been correct only 85% of the time (so wrong 15% of the time). Figure we'd do it like New Jersey car insurance.

It's a method that has been in use in iRacing for their safety rating and so it has been tried in a really competitive environment. Is it fair? Most would probably say no, since getting rammed from behind will penalize you as well, but as I mentioned above personally I feel that system would never truly be fair, so making that the goal wouldn't make sense.

What should be the goal is to teach people to pay attention to everyone around them at all times and not make contact if possible. If you feel you are in a field of wreckers, drive slower, give them a wide berth and let them wreck each other while you slowly raise your safety rating. Initially you will finish races in lower positions than you could, but you will climb out of the mud at least. This was the best way to get out of the Rookie series in iRacing. Not by being fast, but by being safe and consistent first and I can tell you, their higher-end events really benefitted from this, since the drivers who got there really learned their racing etiquette.

A few more choice quotes, relevant to this discussion:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/q-a-with-slight-mad-studios-ian-bell-read-op.353715/page-60#post-11819048

Yes, quitting hits your Online Rating. Same for any disconnect (cat5 pull)

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/q-a-with-slight-mad-studios-ian-bell-read-op.353715/page-62#post-11821322

We have a motorsport class factor in the online rating. Open-wheel is the most sensitive, RX is the least sensitive. Remember, this is already above our "minor touches are ok" tolerance. Simply touching an opponent will not penalize you.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/driver-rating-system-to-be-included-in-project-cars-2.353124/#post-11713372

How similar will this be to iRacing's iRating?

Yeah similar.

We have 2 components and they are tracked separately per player:

1. Strength
2. Safety

Safety is easier to explain: wreck people, run off course and bump
into objects/walls and your safety score drops. We specifically reward clean driving around other cars.

Strength depends on the guys you run with. If you're an underdog and win, your Strenth score gets a decent increase. If you're a Pro and picking on noobs, your Strength score wont go up

honespc
10-07-2017, 13:23
^I guess that's kinda the info I was looking for. Much appreciated your time to find and post it

FIA
10-07-2017, 23:25
Ok so most of this last part if in pc2 will be like the old forza 3 ranks like amateur to rookie all the way to legend, in them races if you won in a field of pros and higher and you was a amateur
your rank shot up fast, it would drop off if beat by someone with a lower rank than yours, so you could go from a pro back to amateur, can we see the ranks of others in the lobby?
as this could give some info to who and the type of racers you are, like a color bar going from green to red for always crashing with some sort of symbols of ranks or is this all hidden??

So this new rating system will put all them trolls and tenpin bowling pros all into there own lobby full of there own kind, but at the start when the game goes live day1
we can expect destruction derby all night long and we will all be heading into there lobby's too, because thay will know the system

we will leave them lobbys yes, to join another, but find more bowling pros joining the track in the practice or qualifying part in the new lobby
on the 1st few days of online play putting are ranks lower, is this going to push us to keep quitting from races, and quitting or leaving will lower are ranks too, yes?

David Semperger
11-07-2017, 00:59
can we see the ranks of others in the lobby?

Yes, from what I've read on GT Planet from the devs, we will see the rating of others. Also, we can create lobbies with rating restrictions as I mentioned, so if you only want let the best of the best drivers (according to the rating system at least) into your lobby, you can do that.


So this new rating system will put all them trolls and tenpin bowling pros all into there own lobby full of there own kind, but at the start when the game goes live day1
we can expect destruction derby all night long and we will all be heading into there lobby's too, because thay will know the system

You are probably right, it will likely be a messy in the first few days or weeks, until the system nails everyone's real driving skill. That said, again, you can keep racing with friends, locking out everyone else if you wish, just like you did in PC1. PC2 only adds to the multiplayer system, it takes nothing away from it based on the information we have so far.


we will leave them lobbys yes, to join another, but find more bowling pros joining the track in the practice or qualifying part in the new lobby
on the 1st few days of online play putting are ranks lower, is this going to push us to keep quitting from races, and quitting or leaving will lower are ranks too, yes?

It seems like that, yeah. Basically, when you join a lobby or matchmaking, where ratings matter, then you and everyone else there is committing to that event. This will hopefully mean that everyone will take events like this more seriously.

Keep in mind that we still don't know exactly how the system will work in practice, only intent SMS has for it.

FIA
11-07-2017, 01:44
Yes, from what I've read, we will see the rating of others. Also, we can create lobbies with rating restrictions as I mentioned, so if you only want let the best of the best drivers (according to the rating system at least) into your lobby, you can do that.

So this part will take its affect after some weeks have passed as most will have a low rank and then we will see restrictions in a lobby
will there be options for a anyone or type of rank lobby so if your rank is low anyone can join, so its like a free for all lobby no rules lobby
and good and bad players are all in this lobby or is this rank system automatically going to stop this with matchmaking rules

in other words do we the lobby maker need to set this before we start so crashers cant join are race, if we leave it anyone will just join good or bad?
so rank is like for are own use within the option of the race weekend rules, so we let in who we would like in?
or are both of these rules in affect, are own rules with matchmaking rules, so we just don't see the crashers and thay cant join..

Eric Rowland
11-07-2017, 04:28
The reason I stopped racing online in pCars was there were "people" who were joining a race and would "hide out" after 1 lap and ambush you broadside from behind a blind corner. They had no intention of racing whatsoever, they just enjoyed crashing people. They would then immediately exit the "race". That's got to stop.

breyzipp
11-07-2017, 10:03
Davids thanks a lot for the information, great reading.

I'm mostly a singleplayer myself but will definitely give multiplayer a try as well. I will be that poor guy in the back with bad skill but clean racing. :D

dault3883
11-07-2017, 11:25
Davids thanks a lot for the information, great reading.

I'm mostly a singleplayer myself but will definitely give multiplayer a try as well. I will be that poor guy in the back with bad skill but clean racing. :D

ill be there racing against you LOL we will have our own race within a race LOL

David Semperger
11-07-2017, 11:37
So this part will take its affect after some weeks have passed as most will have a low rank and then we will see restrictions in a lobby

To be clear, your rating will in all likelyhood start adjusting from day 1, it's just that most ranking systems, no matter how good, need a bit of time find the right rank for people. Many games use placement matches during the initial stages of matchmaking. While you are doing these initial matches, you don't have a rating at all, so you are matched randomly with others who don't have one either, but in the mean time the rating system is already calculating your rating based on the result of these matches, starting from a base value. Most games tend to require 10-20 placement matches before you get your rank. We'll see if PC2 will use a similar system.


will there be options for a anyone or type of rank lobby so if your rank is low anyone can join, so its like a free for all lobby no rules lobby
and good and bad players are all in this lobby or is this rank system automatically going to stop this with matchmaking rules

As I mentioned, yes, disabling the rating restriction should be possible at the very least for private races with friends, based on the information we have now. For public lobbies, you can definitely set the rating bar very low as well.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/q-a-with-slight-mad-studios-ian-bell-read-op.353715/page-13#post-11717609

If you are doing private races with your friends, the license filters can be ignored. They are your friends, they already trust you, you know the password so we will not prevent racing.

Really the license system is more to help identify "strangers" or unknown people. Can you trust these new people?

Example, i have a public room with a minimum safety rating of "C" (it goes F-->A i think), and guy named T1Wrekker has safety score F so he cannot join.

Note, that you can most likely set the minimum rating for your public lobby to 'F' as well, meaning that anyone could join.


in other words do we the lobby maker need to set this before we start so crashers cant join are race, if we leave it anyone will just join good or bad?
so rank is like for are own use within the option of the race weekend rules, so we let in who we would like in?
or are both of these rules in affect, are own rules with matchmaking rules, so we just don't see the crashers and thay cant join..

If you are creating a custom lobby, you can set this manually it seems.

We actually know very little about how the matchmaking will work. In most games, when you are using the matchmaking system to find others to play with, instead of searching for servers, you set the parameters on your end. Personally I think the way it will work in PC2 will be that instead of entering the lobby browser we will have a "Find Race" menu, or something like that, where we can select a track, car, weather, plus a few more options, after which the matchmaker will try find other people to race with (possibly including already created custom lobbies), who chose the same options, and who are near our own skill and safety rating. I'm fairly sure the rating system will always be in effect in matchmaking.


The reason I stopped racing online in pCars was there were "people" who were joining a race and would "hide out" after 1 lap and ambush you broadside from behind a blind corner. They had no intention of racing whatsoever, they just enjoyed crashing people. They would then immediately exit the "race". That's got to stop.

Wow, was it that bad? When I raced online the worst I saw were people who kept swerving left and right when I tried to overtake them, which often resulted in them crashing actually. :)


Davids thanks a lot for the information, great reading.

I'm mostly a singleplayer myself but will definitely give multiplayer a try as well. I will be that poor guy in the back with bad skill but clean racing. :D

Me too probably. I'm fast in Time Trials, when I have the track for myself, but I have terrible race sense sometimes, so often struggle to overtake people cleanly or at all. I will definitely be going the safe route initially. The small amount of time I spent in iRacing taught me that is by far the best approach when climbing the ranks. :)

Also, glad I could help out. I want to clarify though that I was only a WMD member for PC1, I don't have any inside information for PC2, so my posts are an interpretation of public posts made by the devs on GT Planet. I wanted to state it very clearly that what I'm saying here may not be a 100% accurate, as the posts I quote from GT Planet are sometimes months old and PC2 is still in development, so things may change.

honespc
11-07-2017, 11:45
Wow, was it that bad? When I raced online the worst I saw were people who kept swerving left and right when I tried to overtake them, which often resulted in them crashing actually. :)
In public lobbies, this could be avoided by adding which is perhaps the most basic multiplayer option in racing games. Ghosting all cars, no contact. But for some weird reason no one comes to understand it seems we won't be given such primitive option.

Project Cars is the racing game where you can tweak just about everything right?. Then devs please, something as basic as this characteristic.., don't overlook it. Add it.

David Semperger
11-07-2017, 14:00
In public lobbies, this could be avoided by adding which is perhaps the most basic multiplayer option in racing games. Ghosting all cars, no contact. But for some weird reason no one comes to understand it seems we won't be given such primitive option.

Project Cars is the racing game where you can tweak just about everything right?. Then devs please, something as basic as this characteristic.., don't overlook it. Add it.

I'm not sure about the exact reasoning behind this, but thinking about it, this to me would be the almost the same as having a Time Attack mode with limited laps. Without contact between drivers, a race loses almost all of its strategic element, so no matter how many bad drivers there are online, I would almost certainly never use this option, I would rather stick to hotlapping, which I would be doing for the most part during such an event anyway. A rating system is much more elegant way of avoiding wreckers.

Roger Prynne
11-07-2017, 14:46
Wow, was it that bad? When I raced online the worst I saw were people who kept swerving left and right when I tried to overtake them, which often resulted in them crashing actually. :)

Yes it was and still is in some lobby's.

DECATUR PLAYA
11-07-2017, 15:28
The reason I stopped racing online in pCars was there were "people" who were joining a race and would "hide out" after 1 lap and ambush you broadside from behind a blind corner. They had no intention of racing whatsoever, they just enjoyed crashing people. They would then immediately exit the "race". That's got to stop.

First of all some people above talked about quitting races to get away from the trolls. I think quitting is going to have a negative impact on your rating. Dont quit. This is what the trolls want you to do. As a guy that only raced in multiplayer I know these trolls well and most times they quit after doing what they do and then move on to another room. Give the host of the room time to find these guys and kick them. This is also why communication in rooms is so vital because a lot of times you can find out who the wreckers are in qualifying.

I want to STRESS this to the community. Don't write all these wreckers off as little kids. In a lot of cases it may be kids but some cases a lot of cases it is some older guys looking to destroy our public room system. It is some guys not just looking to crash in rooms but looking to crash the game. On other games I have actually had conversations with these guys and they come to forums to read your frustration, they study whatever system is in place in order to destroy it. This is why we can't just let them have our public rooms. They run the guys off who know how to run and race a good room. This leaves the public rooms to Noobs and Trolls and we just can't let that happen.

The new system seems like it will work over time, but more important than the new system is a community thats committed to making it work. That runs the trolls and wreckers off faster than anything else. SMS created these public rooms for us not for them. If you get to know the trolls you will find that it's really not a lot of them but it doesn't take many going from room to room destroying things.

honespc
11-07-2017, 15:35
I'm not sure about the exact reasoning behind this, but thinking about it, this to me would be the almost the same as having a Time Attack mode with limited laps. Without contact between drivers, a race loses almost all of its strategic element, so no matter how many bad drivers there are online, I would almost certainly never use this option, I would rather stick to hotlapping, which I would be doing for the most part during such an event anyway.Having the ghosting all cars available just for those days you can't have a single good race. I mean you go by your third attempt, and then again fail session with a couple of crashers or people making other's lives impossible.

I always run normal in all racing games (with contact), and continue to do so for the entire session when the situation allows for it; in other words when you finally find a room full of fair racers. However, in public lobbies this isn't the normal thing, and happens only one time out of ten, so having the ghosting cars option at your disposal for when you are a little annoyed already, and being able to run these kind of "let's see whos the fastest here, but while I can see you too" races can't do any harm.


A rating system is much more elegant way of avoiding wreckerswhen it works

hkraft300
11-07-2017, 15:37
Lot of times its inexperienced guys who aren't intentionally wrecking. Jumping into an LMP car with little tuning and driving experience for example. They're fast powerful race cars that need some knowledg, skill and care to drive. I've also had a lot of wrecks where the other guy (sometimes myself) has been unaware of the opponent's position. Spacial awareness, struggling with an alternate line: lot of guys only know one line through track and can't drive an alternate line to pass/defend.

DECATUR PLAYA
11-07-2017, 16:07
Lot of times its inexperienced guys who aren't intentionally wrecking. Jumping into an LMP car with little tuning and driving experience for example. They're fast powerful race cars that need some knowledg, skill and care to drive. I've also had a lot of wrecks where the other guy (sometimes myself) has been unaware of the opponent's position. Spacial awareness, struggling with an alternate line: lot of guys only know one line through track and can't drive an alternate line to pass/defend.

^ Good point

The other part of the equation is realizing when your racing with rookies. In a lot of cases when guys get hit from behind in the first corner it's just a new guy that was excited and just hit the brakes to late. In pcars too late is just too late and your not going to be able to stop the car. Most guys then rage quit over the hit and little did they know that it wasn't a troll that hit them it was just a newbie that has to learn.

hkraft300
11-07-2017, 16:24
Part of the ranking system laying blame both ways will encourage us to spot the noobs and avoid potential wreck situations.
I'll get impatient and pull high risk maneuvers, with little success and end up spinning.

dault3883
11-07-2017, 16:36
Part of the ranking system laying blame both ways will encourage us to spot the noobs and avoid potential wreck situations.
I'll get impatient and pull high risk maneuvers, with little success and end up spinning.

or be like me and get inpatient with them go into a corner and pit a bumper to em

sorry iv raced a long time on nascar games i get inpatient with some one going slower infront of me and blocking me i end up giving them a good old bump and run

honespc
11-07-2017, 16:48
i get inpatient with some one going slower infront of me and blocking me i end up giving them a good old bump and runThat's just lame.

Back on subject, basic stuff is basic. Collisions on/off make for such thing.

DECATUR PLAYA
11-07-2017, 17:08
or be like me and get inpatient with them go into a corner and pit a bumper to em

sorry iv raced a long time on nascar games i get inpatient with some one going slower infront of me and blocking me i end up giving them a good old bump and run

This is actually a crazy point. Different styles of racing do come into play in multiplayer. I'm a NASCAR guy to and in NASCAR we race a lot tighter with a lot more contact than other racers. If a guy holds you up you find ways to get around and some of those ways can be rather dirty.

I had to learn patience in project cars and it was not a easy thing. In NASCAR being patient doesn't get your sponsors on TV.

Roger Prynne
11-07-2017, 17:40
or be like me and get inpatient with them go into a corner and pit a bumper to em

sorry iv raced a long time on nascar games i get inpatient with some one going slower infront of me and blocking me i end up giving them a good old bump and run

Well that's not going to get you very far in the ranking system is it!!

hkraft300
11-07-2017, 22:49
or be like me and get inpatient with them go into a corner and pit a bumper to em


Rubbing is racing. A bit of paint swapping is fine. I'll dive bomb and barge my way past, I'll close the door defending on entry, but punting them off-track is not cool.

From what I've read here the ranking system has a minimum impact threshold where it's not triggered by light contact, and it's more relaxed in certain game modes eg RX for contact.

FIA
11-07-2017, 23:31
Do hope the kick option works better in this new game, short story; i had many long good races with the same people in the public lobby, and we started the next race and new people joined
in the quili of the next race, thay did not do anything to anyone , the race started and was good for 3 laps

then there was 3 cars on the straight in the ghost car state facing side on so there cars was the full width
of the track, as any car got close to Drive-through and you are thinking your going to drive through them bcos there in the ghost state, thay start to move back and forward so car is solid and every car in race gets it
the leader, 2nd 3rd all get hit, so bcos race was pointless racing, i stop after there car to see there names and to use the kick in lobby screen, but thay just never got kicked

thay where still there in the next race and i kick and kick, so i leave race
so hope the ranks work and the kick, as leaving races will get you a bad rank...

hkraft300
12-07-2017, 08:03
If you're not lobby host, you can only vote to kick.
For it to work you need majority vote.

rich1e I
03-09-2017, 16:06
I feel like I didn't quite get how the system works, so please someone correct me if the following isn't right.
The online reputation is a combined system consisting of my safety rank and my strenght or racecraft. Safety rank is a letter, that starts from U as the lowest rank and goes up to S as the highest. In between we have F, E, D, C, B and A. Our racecraft is a number and starts with 1500 default. Maximum is 5000.
So the best online reputation you can have is S 5000. Is that correct? I'm really not sure because Andy said during the stream that everyone has to climb up to 100, so I thought, the lower the number the better the racecraft rank.
Please can anyone confirm or just correct me?

Mad Al
03-09-2017, 16:15
I feel like I didn't quite get how the system works, so please someone correct me if the following isn't right.
The online reputation is a combined system consisting of my safety rank and my strenght or racecraft. Safety rank is a letter, that starts from U as the lowest rank and goes up to S as the highest. In between we have F, E, D, C, B and A. Our racecraft is a number and starts with 1500 default. Maximum is 5000.
So the best online reputation you can have is S 5000. Is that correct? I'm really not sure because Andy said during the stream that everyone has to climb up to 100, so I thought, the lower the number the better the racecraft rank.
Please can anyone confirm or just correct me?

Higher is better for the racecraft rating, safety is basically U (unrated) going F to A then S as you get higher

Just don't end an online session with a bunch of donuts and pile ups for "fun" on a ranked server... it will crash your ratings (as we all found out a couple of days back in testing :))

Your starting rating should be U1500

rich1e I
03-09-2017, 16:57
Higher is better for the racecraft rating, safety is basically U (unrated) going F to A then S as you get higher

Just don't end an online session with a bunch of donuts and pile ups for "fun" on a ranked server... it will crash your ratings (as we all found out a couple of days back in testing :))

Your starting rating should be U1500

Thanks for your reply. No, I definitely won't be 'joking around' after a race^^ I really do understand that there's no way to create a perfect system that never fails, but the 'iRacing approach' seems a bit unfair to me, penalizing me as well for being hit from behind, but ok we'll have to deal with it. The problem is, griefers and crashers that don't care about their online reputation can not only have some fun ruining people's races, they also really hurt you by affecting your safety rank. Now, on iRacing you won't find that much intentional crashers as it is way too expensive, but on Xbox? This will be a problem if we can't figure out who's a wrecker before the race starts.
Don't want to be too negative but it's very unfair losing rank points for disconnections. I really hope this can be changed maybe after release. Losing your rank for something you have no influence on is just not right in my opinion.

Mad Al
03-09-2017, 18:08
Thanks for your reply. No, I definitely won't be 'joking around' after a race^^ I really do understand that there's no way to create a perfect system that never fails, but the 'iRacing approach' seems a bit unfair to me, penalizing me as well for being hit from behind, but ok we'll have to deal with it. The problem is, griefers and crashers that don't care about their online reputation can not only have some fun ruining people's races, they also really hurt you by affecting your safety rank. Now, on iRacing you won't find that much intentional crashers as it is way too expensive, but on Xbox? This will be a problem if we can't figure out who's a wrecker before the race starts.
Don't want to be too negative but it's very unfair losing rank points for disconnections. I really hope this can be changed maybe after release. Losing your rank for something you have no influence on is just not right in my opinion.

If you can just ragequit/disconnect without loss of ranking, then people will exploit it when they have a bad race... and someone who spends time crashing into people deliberately will find themselves restricted to low ranked servers.. so should be reasonably easy to avoid if you drive sensibly yourself

rich1e I
03-09-2017, 18:56
If you can just ragequit/disconnect without loss of ranking, then people will exploit it when they have a bad race... and someone who spends time crashing into people deliberately will find themselves restricted to low ranked servers.. so should be reasonably easy to avoid if you drive sensibly yourself

Ok I understand. The game doesn't distinguish between quitting the lobby and random disconnect. I can image, it must be tedious at times reading what people say who have no clue about how coding works, like me :D

Mad Al
03-09-2017, 20:25
Ok I understand. The game doesn't distinguish between quitting the lobby and random disconnect. I can image, it must be tedious at times reading what people say who have no clue about how coding works, like me :D
It was a perfectly reasonable question.. so no problem

ramm21
04-09-2017, 02:10
Just don't end an online session with a bunch of donuts

What? But what if you win? I really enjoy burning a donut or two after winning a good race

hkraft300
04-09-2017, 03:13
What? But what if you win? I really enjoy burning a donut or two after winning a good race

What if you burn donuts but stay on track?

Mad Al
04-09-2017, 08:58
I'm sure a donut on the manual cool down lap would be fine.. we actually finished racing whilst the clock was still running and started messing about (as I said it was just a multiplayer test..)

Christy_055
05-09-2017, 23:18
Will it be possible to improve ones ranking by good safe time trialing or fast qualifying times rather than having to endure the lottery of who will be punting who during a race?

Trippul G
06-09-2017, 00:17
Will it be possible to improve ones ranking by good safe time trialing or fast qualifying times rather than having to endure the lottery of who will be punting who during a race?

I would imagine not...would kind of defeat the purpose if someone could act like an arse online then turn around and clean up his ranking by doing some single player activities.

Rodders
12-09-2017, 12:13
If any of you were on PCars1 servers which were connected to the Hamsterstew system I think the PCars 2 system will be much the same. While you do indeed get penalised for being hit by someone, it works due to averages - over time, on average the crap/malicious drivers will always get penalised more than the decent drivers.

So while in some races your safety rating will get hit hard through no fault of your own, over time you should naturally roll in the right direction, while the bad drivers are rolling in the other direction. Then by good server admins setting a minimum safety rating for drivers, you will completely avoid the worst drivers.

Don't judge it's effectiveness on narrow snapshot situations, judge it's effectiveness over time as a system like this needs you to have a lot of hrs under your belt to work properly. It's not perfect but it's a damn site better than no controls at all.

I'm sure the idiots will be out looking for ways to exploit it from the outset, but if what I seen from running servers with Hamsterstew translates to the PCars 2 system, this is really going to help keep public lobbies cleaner.

The worst types (people actively joining servers to cause chaos) are totally screwed as they will last seconds in a server before being kicked. That then totally screws their safety rating and they simply cannot join servers with a min safety rating set. I recall an idiot called amik that used to impersonate our club members and go on a crash fest - he joined one of our servers after we activated hamsterstew and was auto kicked after the first corner then could never join again. That brought a big smile to my face :)

Roger Prynne
12-09-2017, 13:40
I recall an idiot called amik that used to impersonate our club members and go on a crash fest
There's a whole thread about him somewhere from way back.

ramm21
12-09-2017, 14:07
If any of you were on PCars1 servers which were connected to the Hamsterstew system I think the PCars 2 system will be much the same. While you do indeed get penalised for being hit by someone, it works due to averages - over time, on average the crap/malicious drivers will always get penalised more than the decent drivers.

So while in some races your safety rating will get hit hard through no fault of your own, over time you should naturally roll in the right direction, while the bad drivers are rolling in the other direction. Then by good server admins setting a minimum safety rating for drivers, you will completely avoid the worst drivers.

Don't judge it's effectiveness on narrow snapshot situations, judge it's effectiveness over time as a system like this needs you to have a lot of hrs under your belt to work properly. It's not perfect but it's a damn site better than no controls at all.

I'm sure the idiots will be out looking for ways to exploit it from the outset, but if what I seen from running servers with Hamsterstew translates to the PCars 2 system, this is really going to help keep public lobbies cleaner.

The worst types (people actively joining servers to cause chaos) are totally screwed as they will last seconds in a server before being kicked. That then totally screws their safety rating and they simply cannot join servers with a min safety rating set. I recall an idiot called amik that used to impersonate our club members and go on a crash fest - he joined one of our servers after we activated hamsterstew and was auto kicked after the first corner then could never join again. That brought a big smile to my face :)

So this is just speculation then? Or do you know it works like that for sure?

Rodders
12-09-2017, 15:14
Hi Ramm21 - I said I think it'll work the same. Tends to indicate I'm not sure :p

It's an educated guess though and the new system reads very very much like the one used in Hamsterstew.

Kostman22
29-09-2017, 02:21
if your overall races are clean in a few months all the trolls will be left in the dust racking wise, and the clean drivers will have lobbies with higher ranking then those game breaking idiots. So in the end, yes the ranking system is not perfect, and yes it can be EXTREMELY frustrating dealing with them, but if you can just hang in there and progress your rank the online portion will only get better and everyone will be happy. Me myself I'm losing hope, but I will not give up because I know this awesome game will have an awesome online experience in the not so far future. Only thing I'd love to have in this game is the ability to block those trolls who cause crashes over and over from joining ranked races, but then again it would take at least a month to make the final decision seeing there is a learning curve so it equals out in the end because they will be history once the high ranking lobbies are created... Just hang in there buddy, many of us feel your anger!

P.S. Don't blame the game for human error there is not much the game can do to fix them.

surtic86
29-09-2017, 04:49
I would love to see a safety level under U to get all the crashers there.

Balles
29-09-2017, 09:13
if your overall races are clean in a few months all the trolls will be left in the dust racking wise, and the clean drivers will have lobbies with higher ranking then those game breaking idiots. So in the end, yes the ranking system is not perfect, and yes it can be EXTREMELY frustrating dealing with them, but if you can just hang in there and progress your rank the online portion will only get better and everyone will be happy. Me myself I'm losing hope, but I will not give up because I know this awesome game will have an awesome online experience in the not so far future. Only thing I'd love to have in this game is the ability to block those trolls who cause crashes over and over from joining ranked races, but then again it would take at least a month to make the final decision seeing there is a learning curve so it equals out in the end because they will be history once the high ranking lobbies are created... Just hang in there buddy, many of us feel your anger!

P.S. Don't blame the game for human error there is not much the game can do to fix them.

Very good post. I feel the same. Frustrated yes but positive it will be successfull. And the system will be tweaked where it needs to be over time.

the5amkebab
01-10-2017, 07:23
I find it crazy that there are people who would spend $70-$100 on a game they have no intention of playing properly to make the most of what its intended for but just to piss off other people. There's so many other free online games they can play if that's their intention, what a waste of money.

solocapers
01-10-2017, 08:19
I would love to see a safety level under U to get all the crashers there.

I completely 100% agree with this.

Even have it as a large threshold to reach being dropped in to it allow new people time to get used to the game.

I don't think its particularly fair tarring new but fair people with the same brush as persistent rammers.

That way lobby hosts can give new people a chance if they so wish without worrying too much about regular idiots and as a small measure set a default level of U and above on new lobby creation which forces people to set the minimum ranking BELOW U if they want the idiots in their lobby.

David Semperger
01-10-2017, 08:25
I think that is a bad idea. In that case rammers could simply reset their profile to get back to U. On the PC at least this is really easy to do.

What people need to realize is that initially doing a few clean races is far more important than winning. You will get at least an F or E rating as a result. It is how you can move up from rookie series in the real world too, where there are far more accidents than in F1 to use an extreme example. Consistency first. Server hosts already have settings to filter out the wreckers then.

kofotsjanne
01-10-2017, 08:33
I think that is a bad idea. In that case rammers could simply reset their profile to get back to U. On the PC at least this is really easy to do.

What people need to realize is that initially doing a few clean races is far more important than winning. You will get at least an F or E rating as a result. It is how you can move up from rookie series in the real world too, where there are far more accidents than in F1 to use an extreme example. Consistency first. Server hosts already have settings to filter out the wreckers then.
i guess they need to do it less easy to reset the ranks then. It takes away one of the reasons to have it to begin with if guys can get their u1500 back in no time. So the idea of having a specific class for wreckers is not a bad idea, then we're talking about a bad design choice.

David Semperger
01-10-2017, 08:42
I would certainly prefer that as well. Ideally our profile should be linked to our Steam account on the PC, then resetting it would mean using another account and likely buying the game again.

Balles
01-10-2017, 08:44
i guess they need to do it less easy to reset the ranks then. It takes away one of the reasons to have it to begin with if guys can get their u1500 back in no time. So the idea of having a specific class for wreckers is not a bad idea, then we're talking about a bad design choice.

Agreed, if it's easy to have the U1500 back in a reset then all ranks < to U1500 are pointless.

solocapers
01-10-2017, 08:44
I think that is a bad idea. In that case rammers could simply reset their profile to get back to U. On the PC at least this is really easy to do.

What people need to realize is that initially doing a few clean races is far more important than winning. You will get at least an F or E rating as a result. It is how you can move up from rookie series in the real world too, where there are far more accidents than in F1 to use an extreme example. Consistency first. Server hosts already have settings to filter out the wreckers then.

Ohh really? I thought it would have been linked to their steam account and SMS servers? If thats not then yea.. it'll be a pointless move. I hope the PS4 rankings are not just stored locally on a machine. In that case, on PC, whats stopping a rammer editing the save file to give themselves a B ranking, if its only stored locally????? :eek:

I agree.. ive managed to get to D rank after about 20 races or so.. thats with me having lots of penalties for being smashed off from idiots or just being unlucky enough going in to a collision in the field ahead.

Not to mention my own many excursions off the track.

It really does pay to just go at about 80% and let the dangerous drivers do their own thing. You'll be ahead of them in no time anyway.

David Semperger
01-10-2017, 08:49
In that case, on PC, whats stopping a rammer editing the save file to give themselves a B ranking, if its only stored locally?????

An encrypted profile. :)

kofotsjanne
01-10-2017, 08:58
I would certainly prefer that as well. Ideally our profile should be linked to our Steam account on the PC, then resetting it would mean using another account and likely buying the game again.
Yep, should be linked to our SteamID. SteamID is there to be used and should be so in cases like this. Are you really sure about it being possible to reset? I just cant imagine that they decided to go that route.

kofotsjanne
01-10-2017, 09:32
I just was in a race, 3rd place and super clean racing, BOOM! "Bug Splat", lost ~60 points and back to U. Great!

cpcdem
01-10-2017, 09:45
What people need to realize is that initially doing a few clean races is far more important than winning. You will get at least an F or E rating as a result.

Absolutely agreed! Last night I could not join a server with high safety ranking, so went to the U ones. There were some very fast and clean people there, but only had U or F safety ranking because they were surrounded by many wreckers and complained that they can not rank up. I suggested that they need to keep it safe for some races, simply avoid rammers, be at a safe position all the time and don't worry about winning, just for a few races until they reach a little better ranking, so that they can play at full speed again, but with cleaner drivers. Well, I stayed for a few races, in every single one of them those guys were still giving it all in turn 1 with all the wreckers and due to damage disabled, even after massive carnages they could go on and eventually win, due to their driving skill. But of course they did not earn anything regarding safety ranking. Guess for a lot of people the absolute need to win every single race if possible is above everything else, even though this turns out to prevent them from enjoying the game as much as they could..

takaii
01-10-2017, 10:23
Absolutely agreed! Last night I could not join a server with high safety ranking, so went to the U ones. There were some very fast and clean people there, but only had U or F safety ranking because they were surrounded by many wreckers and complained that they can not rank up. I suggested that they need to keep it safe for some races, simply avoid rammers, be at a safe position all the time and don't worry about winning, just for a few races until they reach a little better ranking, so that they can play at full speed again, but with cleaner drivers. Well, I stayed for a few races, in every single one of them those guys were still giving it all in turn 1 with all the wreckers and due to damage disabled, even after massive carnages they could go on and eventually win, due to their driving skill. But of course they did not earn anything regarding safety ranking. Guess for a lot of people the absolute need to win every single race if possible is above everything else, even though this turns out to prevent them from enjoying the game as much as they could..

Exactly! Anyway even if they drive supposly clean by themselves i still want to believe if someone makes bad judgement to create situations that they put themselves into higher risk of crashing they dont deserv to rank. Like you say if they put themselves to try to be first when they know they will be wrecked its kinda shows their capability to make the wrong decisions. Therefor dont earn license rank because they cant think in a way to avoid crashes. Even if they dont create the situation, still being a clean driver its not about just about driving clean but activily avoiding crashes as well by making choises that put them into better position not being involved in those crashes.

kofotsjanne
01-10-2017, 10:51
one thing ive noticed in this and ac, probably other games too, is that 1) people like to take out their frustration on drivers that had nothing to do with their accident and 2) They except to just be able to pass you everywhere because they are faster in specific sections or faster overall, and dont want to actually find the oportunity to pass even if they dont get blocked. They shouldnt join races with that mentality but rather hotlap events.

previously i have just thought that they will get into their own disrespectful-driver-class soon enough so it havent bothered me that much but by reading this thread i learned that they will be able to drive like this during this entire game cycle since they can just reset their stats back. Lets be honest here, most servers will be U since people making them isnt just looking for clean racing, they also want people to join. Most people even if they are >F will join U servers because they want people to race. And here we are, wreckers and disrespectful drivers can just reset their stats and start all over again.

rich1e I
01-10-2017, 10:52
Had my first race with wreckers yesterday and it's not that easy to stay away from trouble. The crash kiddies will find you. My race ended with me being upside down and having had to retire to the pits. Unfortunately I didn't have a button assigned to reset the car on track. I can only recommend it if you don't want to lose extra skill rank.

David Semperger
01-10-2017, 11:26
Are you really sure about it being possible to reset?

On the PC, yes, I'm positive.

cpcdem
01-10-2017, 11:39
Had my first race with wreckers yesterday and it's not that easy to stay away from trouble. The crash kiddies will find you. My race ended with me being upside down and having had to retire to the pits. Unfortunately I didn't have a button assigned to reset the car on track. I can only recommend it if you don't want to lose extra skill rank.

As I said to a guy yesterday, nobody can ram you from behind when you're last. That's the approach I am taking in such servers, stay behind, see what others do and pass when I see a carnage so it is absolutely safe to go. Yes, you cannot win this way, but is still a very nice challenge trying to then make your way up as much as possible, although of course you need to pick your fights, only with the people that you can tell that drive cleanly. With the others, you have to be patient, either wait until they make a big mistake and you can pass safely, otherwise you must be prepared to let it go. Just for as many races are needed to get to high safety ranking, which should be about 10-15 races. Then, if the system continues to work as it does now in high rank servers, you'll have dozens and dozens of clean and competitive races..

@kofotsjanne: Agreed about your points 1 and 2, unfortunately there are some very fast drivers that behave exactly like that. They're the minority though, to my experience at least, because I've also raced with many people that are much faster than me, many times strongly defended my position in the race to them, but they did not try to do crazy moves and at the end told me "good race" for managing to keep them behind. Didn't get your point about wreckers resetting their stats though, what would that gain them? They would still remain at U..And about joining U servers to find players, normally this will not be needed, as time goes by more and more F,E,D etc servers should be available.

rich1e I
01-10-2017, 12:09
As I said to a guy yesterday, nobody can ram you from behind when you're last. That's the approach I am taking in such servers, stay behind, see what others do and pass when I see a carnage so it is absolutely safe to go. Yes, you cannot win this way, but is still a very nice challenge trying to then make your way up as much as possible, although of course you need to pick your fights, only with the people that you can tell that drive cleanly. With the others, you have to be patient, either wait until they make a big mistake and you can pass safely, otherwise you must be prepared to let it go. Just for as many races are needed to get to high safety ranking, which should be about 10-15 races. Then, if the system continues to work as it does now in high rank servers, you'll have dozens and dozens of clean and competitive races..

Yeah I know, I don't care about my skill rank. The two cars in front of me were constantly running wide, so I decided to pass them, which was a stupid idea because I was going to be a target in the next braking zone. Next problem was that apparently penalties were turned off so the crash kiddies could just do whatever they wanted. Edit: I noticed too late that you can scroll through all info about race conditions.

This was my perspective. It was partially my fault, I shouldn't have overtaken them, but I had another car behind me catching up.

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/rich1e%20I/video/37240662

hkraft300
01-10-2017, 12:11
I just won a race from the back against A-B ranked drivers at Daytona. They crashed. I passed ;)

takaii
01-10-2017, 13:06
Yeah I know, I don't care about my skill rank. The two cars in front of me were constantly running wide, so I decided to pass them, which was a stupid idea because I was going to be a target in the next braking zone. Next problem was that apparently penalties were turned off so the crash kiddies could just do whatever they wanted. Info in the lobby about conditions is not enough. I definitely wouldn't join races with damage and penalties turned off.

This was my perspective. It was partially my fault, I shouldn't have overtaken them, but I had another car behind me catching up.

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/rich1e%20I/video/37240662

" but I had another car behind me catching up. " Well you should just let that guy passed you. We all do misstakes. Next race your ready for better judgement ;)

takaii
01-10-2017, 13:23
Also the worst track to rank safety rank on must be monza! people love to wreck on that track so stay from it ;)

kofotsjanne
01-10-2017, 13:29
Also the worst track to rank safety rank on must be monza! people love to wreck on that track so stay from it ;)
I have had pretty good luck at Monza but Ive seen people that not being as lucky. I tried GT3 at Bathurst twice. It wont be a third for a while. :P

rich1e I
01-10-2017, 13:39
Also the worst track to rank safety rank on must be monza! people love to wreck on that track so stay from it ;)

True, I've been lucky once at Monza when people crashed on the straight after race start, so there was no 'rush hour' at the first chicane. Entered another Monza lobby yesterday and was really looking forward to a 15 laps race, but the lobby was full at the end of qualifying so 20 seconds before race start I decided to back out just to be in the Red Bull Ring crash kiddies race 10 minutes later :D

Marlborofranz
01-10-2017, 13:42
Was following this topic for a few days and tried multiplayer as of now. YES, it is a T1-crash-simulator in lower classes. However I haven't had a single rammer yet. All crashes were happening by accident due to loss of control or underestimating the traffic jam on turn 1. This happens.

Went from U to F within 3 races in which I got badly damaged after a wreck in turn one. Instead of rage quitting like everyone does, I just went to the pits and finished the remaining 10 laps without a single incident.

Now with F rank I went to a U server with some friends, got wrecked as hell, still repaired my car and finished the race clean. Another race later I went to rank E.

In E I had a nice race, everyone driving fair, cautious, no T1 wreckage and close and nice fighting without pushing someone else off track.

Conclution: For me the system works perfectly. I guess the safety rank will be calculated similar to how iRacing does. Simplified: Number of clean turns divided by incidents. Of course if you get wrecked in Turn one and then rage quit, you will have a very bad clean turns/incidents ratio, thus your rank will not increase. Simply because you didn't drive a single clean turn in that particular race. But if you stay on the server and finish the race clean, then you'll get rewarded because you will make up for the turn one crash by driving 10 clean laps. If you rage quit after a crash and don't finish the race, then this is peoples own fault. But please stop blaming the rating system.

EDIT: Nice sideffect I noticed: When people leave the server before the race finishes, they don't just get punished by removing some points of the skill-score. But it seems like these points that have been removed will be shared among those who finished the race. After getting wrecked, I of course finished in the back of the field. However I still got points instead of loosing them. So keep driving, finish those races even after getting wrecked and you'll see yourself climbing up the safety-rank-ladder quicker than you think.

mariovic20
17-10-2017, 16:29
My biggest problem with this ranking system is it's not balanced right it penalized me when someone else rams me off the road an I've done a whole race without going off track or getting hit etc. An my levels don't raise WTF?? an the major problem with that is OK now my skill level is at f900 but now I have alot less servers I can join WTF? That's totally will alienate people from enjoying this beautiful game, I strongly think you guys should not decrease skill level points only when someone is intentionally being a jerk, but reward players for good driving... Because as players get better and months go by what about new players or players with a low skill level, now it would be harder for them to progress because only available servers are for E, F, D, C, A, S, 1000+ THAT WILL alienate new players or players with low skill levels and if there aren't enough servers WHAT DO YOU DO? NOTE. THIS SYSTEM WOULD BE BETTER IF IT WORKED OFFLINE SINGLE PLAYER..... PLEASE BALANCE THIS CAUSE I LOVE THIS GAME!.. but now I find myself racing on pins and needles ending in frustration instead of having fun!

rich1e I
17-10-2017, 16:50
My biggest problem with this ranking system is it's not balanced right it penalized me when someone else rams me off the road an I've done a whole race without going off track or getting hit etc. An my levels don't raise WTF?? an the major problem with that is OK now my skill level is at f900 but now I have alot less servers I can join WTF? That's totally will alienate people from enjoying this beautiful game, I strongly think you guys should not decrease skill level points only when someone is intentionally being a jerk, but reward players for good driving... Because as players get better and months go by what about new players or players with a low skill level, now it would be harder for them to progress because only available servers are for E, F, D, C, A, S, 1000+ THAT WILL alienate new players or players with low skill levels and if there aren't enough servers WHAT DO YOU DO? NOTE. THIS SYSTEM WOULD BE BETTER IF IT WORKED OFFLINE SINGLE PLAYER..... PLEASE BALANCE THIS CAUSE I LOVE THIS GAME!.. but now I find myself racing on pins and needles ending in frustration instead of having fun!

Your safety rank is F, that's a good start. I see quite a few F100 lobbies on Xbox, and I'm sure on PC it's the same. Join those races, do NOT qualify, start from the back of the pack and have clean races without contact, spinning out or going off track. Repeat for a couple of races and you'll soon get a better safety rank. A good safety rank is the key to enter lobbies as many hosts don't care about the number, they want to see a good safety rank.

hkraft300
17-10-2017, 18:40
Like this ^ isn't obvious enough :rolleyes:

Race clean. Rank up!

Balles
17-10-2017, 18:43
After a month of discussions on the rating system, I think it works and needs only some fine tune.

But now I'm afraid of 1 thing important to me :

I think there is a pernicious effect that I wasn't expected. What I want from this game and the rating system is close battles, hard to reach podiums, intense races, etc. And what I'm afraid after a month is that majority of players do not race like that at all because they want a good safety rank. That's ok, the game is young, it's just the beginning. But then what, will those players not playing at their best will still play "safe" to keep their safety rating as the ultimate goal of the game or will they play the best they can even if they (or oponents) can do some mistakes and loose the SR so hardly gained.

I ask this myself as I had yesterday a really good and safe battle for the win where I finished second at 0.3s, exactly what I'm looking for in a 1h race with complete strangers. The only problem is that it was the first in about 120 races !

I don't blame the game, the rank system or the players here, just that I worry about the future if safety rank is the only goal for most players.

hkraft300
17-10-2017, 18:58
Don't care. My rank is good enough. I'll fight on track.
If you try to pass me in a crappy location we will both crash!

Balles
17-10-2017, 19:04
Don't care. My rank is good enough. I'll fight on track.
If you try to pass me in a crappy location we will both crash!

Not possible ! You'd be behind me ;). If not (don't buy it but let imagine) I expect you to let me room instead of crash. At least it's what I do.

bradleyland
17-10-2017, 19:18
After a month of discussions on the rating system, I think it works and needs only some fine tune.

But now I'm afraid of 1 thing important to me :

I think there is a pernicious effect that I wasn't expected. What I want from this game and the rating system is close battles, hard to reach podiums, intense races, etc. And what I'm afraid after a month is that majority of players do not race like that at all because they want a good safety rank. That's ok, the game is young, it's just the beginning. But then what, will those players not playing at their best will still play "safe" to keep their safety rating as the ultimate goal of the game or will they play the best they can even if they (or oponents) can do some mistakes and loose the SR so hardly gained.

I ask this myself as I had yesterday a really good and safe battle for the win where I finished second at 0.3s, exactly what I'm looking for in a 1h race with complete strangers. The only problem is that it was the first in about 120 races !

I don't blame the game, the rank system or the players here, just that I worry about the future if safety rank is the only goal for most players.

IMO what will happen is that races will begin to reflect reality a little more closely. In real life, racers learn to respect each other on track. You'll hear a lot of discussion about this in post-race interviews. When an incident occurs, the racer will say, "I was surprised, because I know Johnny, and I respect him." Or they'll have something else to say that is... not so good ;) In general, everyone wants to win, but they also want to be respected, so they race clean. Not to mention the financial penalties of wrecking the equipment.

I race with a regular group of guys, and even with people I know and respect, I have seen an improvement in racing etiquette. I raced a guy hard for three consecutive corners at Algarve in the Ferrari GTB4, and we had no contact. When one of us was on the inside line, we were sure not to overcook the corner and run wide into the other guy. When on the outside, plenty of room was given to the guy on the inside. It was nothing short of amazing. I've seen a dramatic increase in the number of long-lasting, clean battles.

These are good guys that I've been racing with for a couple of years now. There's a psychological effect of knowing that there is a rating system. As much as we all try to avoid contact, simply knowing that there is (or isn't!) going to be a real, unavoidable penalty has an influence on the way everyone plays. It has made the racing a little more conservative, but no less exciting.

In the past, there was a kind of unspoken subtext that the guy on the inside of the corner is in a dominant position. If they overcook it, they're just going to bounce off of you, and drive on. Meanwhile, the guy on the outside goes off-roading. You'd get an apology over the party chat. If they felt really bad, they'd wait for you. Most of the time, you'd just get something like, "Oh dude, were you on the outside? I totally didn't realize you were there." Magically, everyone is more aware of their surroundings now. I love it.

Balles
17-10-2017, 19:24
I hope you're right because all I read in other threads or see in track is not about that for now. Wait and see.

I'm confident the dev's improvements will boost all of this.

rich1e I
17-10-2017, 19:26
Of course people will have to switch from 'defensive driving to improve the letter' to the actual 'racing mode' sooner or later and tackle the track, go for pole positions and so on. Safety rating doesn't seem to drop that easily if you have contact, spins and off track excursions if you have completed enough clean laps.
I was on pole yesterday, had a terrible start and lost my position with 3rd place right beside me. Two wide into the next corner I touched the grass and spun. As I was a bit pissed I spun again the next corner lol One lap later I collected a car that spun at the same spot, I crashed and had to repair damage. Absolutely nothing seemed to work in this race, but after cooling down I had clean laps and still kept my safety rating. It seems you really have to mess up your races constantly to lose your rank.

RomKnight
17-10-2017, 19:30
It's part of driving conduit.

You must always give space, especially coming back from a defense movement (the only one you get to do really).

It's a very nice feel to keep a battle like that going on! :)

eracerhead
17-10-2017, 19:36
After a month of discussions on the rating system, I think it works and needs only some fine tune.

But now I'm afraid of 1 thing important to me :

I think there is a pernicious effect that I wasn't expected. What I want from this game and the rating system is close battles, hard to reach podiums, intense races, etc. And what I'm afraid after a month is that majority of players do not race like that at all because they want a good safety rank. That's ok, the game is young, it's just the beginning. But then what, will those players not playing at their best will still play "safe" to keep their safety rating as the ultimate goal of the game or will they play the best they can even if they (or oponents) can do some mistakes and loose the SR so hardly gained.

I ask this myself as I had yesterday a really good and safe battle for the win where I finished second at 0.3s, exactly what I'm looking for in a 1h race with complete strangers. The only problem is that it was the first in about 120 races !

I don't blame the game, the rank system or the players here, just that I worry about the future if safety rank is the only goal for most players.

After a while the system averages out, meaning the occasional bump or off won't result in a Safety Rank demotion. When drivers come to realize this, my guess is you'll see more close-quarters racing..

Pezby
17-10-2017, 23:15
losing rating because steam goes down and you get disconnected from a race is a crappy system
losing rating because some moron rams into you from behind is a crappy system

i hope you fix these issues and have a reset for everyone

ThatJordGuy
17-10-2017, 23:33
The 'losing points' for a disconnect needs to be addressed.
In a full damage lobby, if I have a mechanical failure (or rammed and car breaks), I retire, and have to wait until the end of the race otherwise I'll lose points for quitting?

RomKnight
18-10-2017, 00:11
It has been explained 1000 times and then 1000 times more. Is it really THAT hard to understand or search?

cpcdem
18-10-2017, 09:39
I think there is a pernicious effect that I wasn't expected. What I want from this game and the rating system is close battles, hard to reach podiums, intense races, etc. And what I'm afraid after a month is that majority of players do not race like that at all because they want a good safety rank. That's ok, the game is young, it's just the beginning. But then what, will those players not playing at their best will still play "safe" to keep their safety rating as the ultimate goal of the game or will they play the best they can even if they (or oponents) can do some mistakes and loose the SR so hardly gained.


I agree with what others said, you can still fight very hard, have the occasional bump with others and the rating doesn't go down. You have to really mess up (or be bumped several times by rammers) in order to lose ranking. But, generally speaking, the more you rank up and are able to join highly ranked servers (regarding safety ranking), then the easier it is to keep your safety ranking, because most of the people you race with are very clean and respectful of you as well.

rich1e I
18-10-2017, 12:19
It is indeed a shame that, at least at the moment, the game doesn't distinguish between quitting a race and being disconnected. I'm not a coder and I have no clue what it'd take to make the game understand the difference. It's probably not that easy to implement or maybe it'd just require too much time, but It must be frustrating for a good driver on the road to an S rank with a natural progress of 1650/1700 losing 45 points for being disconnected after grinding and driving his a*** off the whole week. Even if the guy doesn't care too much about his skill rank, but after having shown to be a clean racer at some point people want to see their race craft reflected by the points in their license.
There must be a different signal when someone presses a button to quit and there must be a way to make the game 'understand' the difference.

cpcdem
18-10-2017, 13:41
It is indeed a shame that, at least at the moment, the game doesn't distinguish between quitting a race and being disconnected. I'm not a coder and I have no clue what it'd take to make the game understand the difference. It's probably not that easy to implement or maybe it'd just require too much time, but It must be frustrating for a good driver on the road to an S rank with a natural progress of 1650/1700 losing 45 points for being disconnected after grinding and driving his a*** off the whole week. Even if the guy doesn't care too much about his skill rank, but after having shown to be a clean racer at some point people want to see their race craft reflected by the points in their license.
There must be a different signal when someone presses a button to quit and there must be a way to make the game 'understand' the difference.

Pressing a button to quit is easily distinguishable, but what about pulling the LAN cord off? Or killing the game through the task manager? Unfortunately there's no way to distinguish those. Especially for the LAN thing, only way to distinguish this, is to put a physical camera in your house :). I've also been hit many times by this, also internet connection here is not perfect, but I know that genuinely nothing can be done about it to improve it, so I don't complain.

But, in any case, have you noticed how many more online races in PC2 finish with about the same number of racers that started it? I think the comparison to PC1 or any other sims (apart from iRacing I guess) is staggering, so in my opinion the big overall benefit by far exceeds the occasional hickups.

Roger Prynne
18-10-2017, 15:29
Yeah my router has lost connection 3 times today for whatever reason!!
Came back within minutes each time though.
So how would anyone know that?

bradleyland
18-10-2017, 16:03
Cpcdem nailed it. There can be no way around the penalty for disconnects. Anything you implement will be exploited.

For example, in DiRT Rally, you could disable "restarts" in online events. This meant that players could not restart if they crashed on a stage. However, there is still a way to restart. You simply eject your game disc, and the game quits to the PS/XB main menu. When you load back into the game, you restart at the beginning of whatever even you were in. Yes, it takes additional time, but we had players in our group (good friends) who were exploiting this to their advantage. I could tell, because I built a tool to query the DiRT Rally online championship tracker to keep track of scores. If you used the eject loophole, any unsaved stage times within the current event would disappear from the tracker. I could very easily see some players ejecting 5 to 10 times per event. It was ridiculous.

It's a shame, but you just can't leave these kinds of openings, or they'll be abused.

The thing to keep in mind is that so long as the issues affect everyone proportionally, the ELO system will nullify these effects. Yes, your individual rating will go down, but everyone else's will too. The key is to think of this as a rating, not a score.

Say it with me: skill rating, not score.

rich1e I
18-10-2017, 16:05
Pressing a button to quit is easily distinguishable, but what about pulling the LAN cord off? Or killing the game through the task manager? Unfortunately there's no way to distinguish those. Especially for the LAN thing, only way to distinguish this, is to put a physical camera in your house :). I've also been hit many times by this, also internet connection here is not perfect, but I know that genuinely nothing can be done about it to improve it, so I don't complain.

But, in any case, have you noticed how many more online races in PC2 finish with about the same number of racers that started it? I think the comparison to PC1 or any other sims (apart from iRacing I guess) is staggering, so in my opinion the big overall benefit by far exceeds the occasional hickups.

True, that's a valid point indeed. Hadn't considered this 'scenario'. Well, people will have to accept the fact that we can't have a perfect system. I must say I've been very lucky with disconnects. I had the game freezing right after crossing the finish line and it didn't affect my license, but I'm watching occasionally people streaming who are grinding really hard and trying to climb up that rank ladder. I can understand the frustration after being disconnected.

Rosinbag1
25-10-2017, 13:23
I think with time the ranking system will be good as others have mentioned weeding out the ranks. A lot of factors I imagine go into the ranking and I hope the folks who want to ram, Crash and ruin it for others will be placed far down the list affecting their ability to run. Now just need to be able to easily boot the ones who race like that with little interruption when racing.

beatrunner
22-11-2017, 21:51
I think with time the ranking system will be good as others have mentioned weeding out the ranks. A lot of factors I imagine go into the ranking and I hope the folks who want to ram, Crash and ruin it for others will be placed far down the list affecting their ability to run. Now just need to be able to easily boot the ones who race like that with little interruption when racing.

please just open more D/C/B/A lobbies...then we don't even have to deal with them. never ever again.

Chin
23-11-2017, 04:22
please just open more D/C/B/A lobbies...then we don't even have to deal with them. never ever again.

Feel free to open one! I do it every time I am online. The only way to get more of these lobbies is to create them!