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LeMansnut
03-07-2017, 12:51
Will you able to save during a race?

I say this as would love to an endurance race but sadly life gets in the way.

OddTimer
03-07-2017, 13:25
Unfortunately not��

Sankyo
03-07-2017, 13:33
To add: the complexity of pCARS2's physics model makes it very difficult to do this.

Schnizz58
03-07-2017, 14:44
Well that's a colossal disappointment. The main thing I was looking forward to was being able to do endurance races.

Silraed
03-07-2017, 14:58
I can't imagine how large a save file would have to be to incorporate a full race worth of livetrack 3.0 data.

Mahjik
03-07-2017, 15:03
Well that's a colossal disappointment. The main thing I was looking forward to was being able to do endurance races.

As good as PC2 is, it will never contain "everything". There are going to be several areas people wanted to have certain things implemented that will not make it in... However, you'll see that since the base was created with PC1, what they were able to add in for PC2 is pretty astonishing (which means each iteration will have more "wants" added as there is less foundations to create).

Schnizz58
03-07-2017, 15:27
As good as PC2 is, it will never contain "everything". There are going to be several areas people wanted to have certain things implemented that will not make it in...
No doubt. But that one I thought was in for sure since it was such an obvious shortcoming in PC1.


However, you'll see that since the base was created with PC1, what they were able to add in for PC2 is pretty astonishing (which means each iteration will have more "wants" added as there is less foundations to create).
Well I don't see the physics getting any simpler. If it's the complexity of the physics that's preventing this, then I don't see it ever getting implemented.

That said, I don't see why it's that complicated to save the state of the system. Surely there's a big struct that contains that information. Just save it to a file. It also brings up the question, why would you make your physics model that complex if you can't save its state?

Mahjik
03-07-2017, 16:08
Well I don't see the physics getting any simpler. If it's the complexity of the physics that's preventing this, then I don't see it ever getting implemented.

That's not what I'm talking about at all. What I'm suggesting is as they slow down work on the core system, those resources and time will be able to work on other capabilities.

Schnizz58
03-07-2017, 16:20
That's not what I'm talking about at all. What I'm suggesting is as they slow down work on the core system, those resources and time will be able to work on other capabilities.
Ah, thanks for the clarification and sorry for the misunderstanding.

I felt like the physics of PC1 was its strong point but all the other stuff like menus, game play, etc. were weaker. So I'm puzzled that they chose to devote much of their resources to overhauling the physics model. I'm not saying that there wasn't room for improvement but it was pretty good already. I think I'd have focused on the areas that weren't pretty good.

Roger Prynne
03-07-2017, 16:57
Ah, thanks for the clarification and sorry for the misunderstanding.

I felt like the physics of PC1 was its strong point but all the other stuff like menus, game play, etc. were weaker. So I'm puzzled that they chose to devote much of their resources to overhauling the physics model. I'm not saying that there wasn't room for improvement but it was pretty good already. I think I'd have focused on the areas that weren't pretty good.

To make it more realistic, I mean that is one of the goals of making a sim.... isn't it?

Fanapryde
03-07-2017, 17:07
To make it more realistic, I mean that is one of the goals of making a sim.... isn't it?
Absolutely, overhauling the physics model must have been a priority. It was not bad, but racing in other sims, it was not the best either.
To stay on topic, I also think the mid race save would have been very useful for the long endurance races. Oh well, so we'll need to pause the whole system again until we have time to continue the race...

Trippul G
03-07-2017, 17:21
I must admit, hearing this is kind of a bummer. I was thinking it would be in for sure, given that it's been implemented in other games for some time now.

Pausing the game and leaving the system tied up until you can return is a workable, if inelegant, solution. Maybe in PCARS 3, I guess. :\

Schnizz58
03-07-2017, 17:29
To make it more realistic, I mean that is one of the goals of making a sim.... isn't it?

Of course but I don't think the physics model is hindering realism that much in PC1. It's things such as not being able to load a different tune while in the pits at a race or having to exit and restart the session just to change the steering ratio. While it's a sim at heart, it's also a game and games are supposed to be fun to play. Not being able to save a race so that you can continue it later makes it less fun.

Mahjik
03-07-2017, 17:36
I felt like the physics of PC1 was its strong point but all the other stuff like menus, game play, etc. were weaker. So I'm puzzled that they chose to devote much of their resources to overhauling the physics model. I'm not saying that there wasn't room for improvement but it was pretty good already. I think I'd have focused on the areas that weren't pretty good.

To be fair, the physics model wasn't overhauled but they had a lot of things they needed to implement which didn't make it for PC1. To that, I think SMS is focusing on a lot of things you mentioned (i.e. menus, gameplay, etc). If you can imagine how many people have ideas or desires for PC2, it's not possible for SMS to implement them all in one go even if they are great ideas. Some things will be left for later, others will never get implemented but it's not because they aren't good ideas.

Having seen what SMS has focused on for PC2, IMO they made some very smart decisions. It's never easy narrowing down a near infinite list of good ideas..

Schnizz58
03-07-2017, 17:58
To be fair, the physics model wasn't overhauled but they had a lot of things they needed to implement which didn't make it for PC1.
Perhaps "overhauled" was too strong a word. The point is that resources are being spent making something better that was already good when there are many things that aren't good. I'm just one vote but given a choice between new physics and the ability to save a race, I'd choose the latter.


To that, I think SMS is focusing on a lot of things you mentioned (i.e. menus, gameplay, etc). If you can imagine how many people have ideas or desires for PC2, it's not possible for SMS to implement them all in one go even if they are great ideas.
Good to hear. I'm trying not to come off as some spoiled, entitled kid that's having a tantrum because he isn't getting his way. And I know for a fact that you can't please everybody or implement everyone's idea for the game (it was my job for quite a while to triage and prioritize incoming ideas for our products). It's just that this one a) would have solved a big problem with the game and 2) had universal support when it was proposed to be added to PC1. Unfortunately that turned out not to be feasible but I would have thought it would have a very high priority this time around.

Sankyo
04-07-2017, 07:49
IIRC Ian did favour the idea of being able to save the game while in the pits, as that would simplify things a little bit. Can't remember the reasons why that also was not possible (at least for pC2), but most certainly it still had to do with the complexity of the game (physics/tyre model, LiveTrack, weather etc.).

Perhaps some time in the future we'll be able to simply make a full memory image on disk that can be restored, to continue exactly where/how you left the game :)

Fanapryde
04-07-2017, 08:19
IIRC Ian did favour the idea of being able to save the game while in the pits, as that would simplify things a little bit. Can't remember the reasons why that also was not possible (at least for pC2), but most certainly it still had to do with the complexity of the game (physics/tyre model, LiveTrack, weather etc.).

Perhaps some time in the future we'll be able to simply make a full memory image on disk that can be restored, to continue exactly where/how you left the game :)
Saving while in the pits would have been more than good enough, even ideal as it would exclude possible cheats...

bonannogiovanni
04-07-2017, 15:50
with all due respect, my theory is , a racing simulation that , amongst other things, showcases endurance races shouldn't be allowed to be released if it doesn't implement state saving. Am i supposed to keek the console on for days ? What about my electricity bill? If I'm allowed to pause a game cause I have to go to the bathroom, I must be allowed to save it cause I have a life and have to leave home.

Mahjik
04-07-2017, 16:19
Simple. Don't do endurance races. Solves the problem as there will be plenty of driving options without doing really long races.

rac-r
05-07-2017, 09:21
This is a big bummer.

I missed midrace-savings already really bad in pCars1. And i was totally convinced that this would be the first new feature getting implemented in pcars 2. :(
I was very excited to see the 6h/24h endurance racing capabilites in pCars2 and was sure they wouldn't include it if there wasn't a way to save the state of it... but I was thinking wrong..

I want to race 6h/24h endurance races solo, with a 1-3h stint every evening of the week, so that at the end of the week I could have completed a 24h race. Some people say "well then just race a 2h race every evening of the week, what's the problem"? They don't understand the fascination of endurance racing at all.

running 7 single races is completely different than running 1 race splitted apart.. the fascinating thing about endurance racing is that everything is tied together.. weather changes, wrecked cars, position changes, day/night cycle.. you can't have that when you restart the race every 2 hours. imho -that's- the fascination of endurance racing. not the physical part of a stint (racing the complete distance non-stop), but all that what happens in the 24h of a racing time.

I don't see any technical issues implementing a save-state feature for midrace savings. Even if there is no simple way to save the sim, everything is in the memory (RAM) and if that's dumped everything could be reloaded again (very similar to windows-hibernate feature).

I'm really disappointed the devs didn't realize that's a priority. 2015 they said about midrace-saving:
"It was definitely planned, but there just wasn't enough time. I would REALLY like this feature also. It would be awesome to run some full races and be able to complete them over several days. A true 24 hour of Lemans would be spectacular."
htt p:// forum.projectcarsgame.com/ showthread.php?35655-Save-Game&p=887755&viewfull=1#post887755

Well, I guess from pCars 1 until pCars 2 they should have had enough time to implement this feature, shouldn't they?

I heard in a later pCars 2 patch they want to add online hot-seat swapping. I'd like them to advice to add midrace-saving there aswell!

LeMansnut
05-07-2017, 11:10
Very disappointed to hear this. Apparently the answer is not to do endurance races as there'll be plenty of driving options. Then don't have endurance themed cars or races in the game then.

Mahjik
05-07-2017, 11:23
Very disappointed to hear this. Apparently the answer is not to do endurance races as there'll be plenty of driving options. Then don't have endurance themed cars or races in the game then.

No reason not to have endurance races. Many people have the AI take over for them as if that is their second and third drivers. That was the intent.

Sankyo
05-07-2017, 13:22
I don't see any technical issues implementing a save-state feature for midrace savings. Even if there is no simple way to save the sim, everything is in the memory (RAM) and if that's dumped everything could be reloaded again (very similar to windows-hibernate feature).
You do realise that this would be an enormous file, and the devs need to consider disk space usage?
But apart from that, the fact that you don't see technical issues doesn't mean they're not there :) Making a straight memory dump may not be feasible, or even sufficient to seamlessly continue a saved race. And even if technically possible, it still needs to be done within a certain time and budget, and without breaking other stuff. In realistic terms that may mean that it's too difficult to be implemented.

It may still be on the list, though, just not for pC2 anymore.


I'm really disappointed the devs didn't realize that's a priority.
Priorities are always relative, and they're always weighed with their complexity.


2015 they said about midrace-saving:
"It was definitely planned, but there just wasn't enough time. I would REALLY like this feature also. It would be awesome to run some full races and be able to complete them over several days. A true 24 hour of Lemans would be spectacular."
htt p:// forum.projectcarsgame.com/ showthread.php?35655-Save-Game&p=887755&viewfull=1#post887755

Well, I guess from pCars 1 until pCars 2 they should have had enough time to implement this feature, shouldn't they?
Well apparently not :) It wasn't the only thing to implement, plus it may have proven to be too complex, see above.


I heard in a later pCars 2 patch they want to add online hot-seat swapping. I'd like them to advice to add midrace-saving there aswell!
I bet that online hot-swapping is easier to implement than mid-race saving ;)

Schnizz58
05-07-2017, 14:44
You do realise that this would be an enormous file, and the devs need to consider disk space usage?
Well it fits in RAM.


But apart from that, the fact that you don't see technical issues doesn't mean they're not there :) Making a straight memory dump may not be feasible, or even sufficient to seamlessly continue a saved race.
So that brings up the question why you would design it that way. I don't even really see how it's possible to architect yourself into such a corner that you can't even save state. But assuming that it is possible, why would you do that?

RacingAtHome
05-07-2017, 15:02
Well it fits in RAM.


Which would then be deleted when the system is turned off. Unless I'm very much mistaken.

Mahjik
05-07-2017, 15:03
So that brings up the question why you would design it that way. I don't even really see how it's possible to architect yourself into such a corner that you can't even save state. But assuming that it is possible, why would you do that?

I don't think anyone on this forum understands what it would take to make this happen in PC. In general, anything is possible given time and money (i.e. yes sending someone to Pluto is possible given time & money ;) ). It's not coming day one, but only time will tell if it's something that comes later.

RacingAtHome
05-07-2017, 15:05
I don't think anyone on this forum understands what it would take to make this happen in PC. In general, anything is possible given time and money (i.e. yes sending someone to Pluto is possible given time & money ;) ). It's not coming day one, but only time will tell if it's something that comes later.

It wasn't even in GT5 day 1 and removed from GT6. I'd say that highlights the difficulty of the task.

Schnizz58
05-07-2017, 15:12
Which would then be deleted when the system is turned off. Unless I'm very much mistaken.
You missed the point. It fits in RAM, therefore it will fit on disk.

Mattze
05-07-2017, 15:18
Well, I think mid-game saves are not impossible. The question is, how they do it right. The maximum file size is bounded by the RAM. But 8 GB or something similar could be large enough to blow up your hard disk storage (considering other processes). So, they must comprimise the dumped data including AI, weather, livetrack and so on. Sampling the data and recalculating the global state from single samples during loading the file could be one approach. It's not a 1 to 1 copy of the former state but it should be sufficient even if a single puddle has changed its position (assuming mid-game saves are only available during pit-stops).
What do I want to say? This feature will be not so hard to implement as some people want to tell us. They could do it if they want. But I understand that there are many other things with higher priority, so mid-game saves remain a feature for the future (sorry for the wordplay ;) )

rac-r
05-07-2017, 15:38
You do realise that this would be an enormous file, and the devs need to consider disk space usage?
But apart from that, the fact that you don't see technical issues doesn't mean they're not there :) Making a straight memory dump may not be feasible, or even sufficient to seamlessly continue a saved race. And even if technically possible, it still needs to be done within a certain time and budget, and without breaking other stuff. In realistic terms that may mean that it's too difficult to be implemented.


First, I don't understand how this game could be designed NOT being able to save the state. It's like a design error from the very beginning... but ok, let it be so for this time. There would be other ways!
The game has to fit into RAM.. so the max file-size is about the used RAM of the Game... and I doubt it will be more than 8gb (pcars1 x64 almost stuck at 3,5gb all the time). Saving a 8gb file as a save-state memory dump might not be a very comfortable, well-thought solution - but hell, it would work! load the dump in there again and it would seamlessly continue where it has stopped before. There is no magic behind it, it's mathematical logic that it would continue where it's stopped.
I understand the argument of time and money to implement such a feature. However, given that they f*cked up the design from the beginning to make saving easy, I assume a memory dump solution would be a rather little effort to implement, which could be done without much time and money. The Golden solution, to save a game midrace in a 2-3mb-file might need a lot more effort. This wouldn't be the case if they've designed the game towards this from the beginning, though.



It may still be on the list, though, just not for pC2 anymore.


I really hope they find a solution that works for pCars 2. I don't want to wait another couple of years.. just to hear the same excuses next time again...



Priorities are always relative, and they're always weighed with their complexity.


indeed. but the complexity of this feature is obviously self-made. Too bad they weren't able to get into it from the beginning.



I bet that online hot-swapping is easier to implement than mid-race saving ;)

of course it is. but to quote j.f.kennedy as motivational: "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard" :)

Sankyo
05-07-2017, 20:31
Looks like you're assuming that taking mid-race saving into the design is easy and will have no impact on the game as a whole or the physics fidelity in particular, and on the time to develop game. How are you so sure about that, so you go as far as accusing SMS of 'f*cking up the design' as if it's a certainty that it actually can be done?

There are limits to game save sizes, especially on consoles. Memory-pool-sized saves wil not happen. Creating smaller, compressed/compromised saves can have unforeseen consequences and needs very thorough testing. Hence, it will cost significant time to develop, and cost vs benefit comes into play.

JFK had nearly unlimited taxpayers budget, SMS doesn't ;)

Schnizz58
05-07-2017, 21:01
Remco if I may try to paraphrase what rac-r is saying... (if I understand him correctly, he and I are saying much the same thing.)

He's not assuming that a state save is easy. He's saying that they should have designed it so that it is easy. SMS have control over how easy or hard to make it. If they made it difficult then maybe they shouldn't have done that.

Also are we talking about mid-race saves done at any arbitrary point in time? Or are we talking about saving only when the car is in the pit box? The latter is vastly simpler because the engine is off, the tires aren't rolling, etc. The car is more or less in a quiescent state. For endurance racing, the pit box save would be perfectly acceptable.

Sankyo
05-07-2017, 21:35
Remco if I may try to paraphrase what rac-r is saying... (if I understand him correctly, he and I are saying much the same thing.)

He's not assuming that a state save is easy. He's saying that they should have designed it so that it is easy. SMS have control over how easy or hard to make it. If they made it difficult then maybe they shouldn't have done that.
I understood that yes, and that's what I addressed in my posting above yours, i.e. he assumes that taking it into the design is possible in the sense of still being able to deliver the game you want to deliver, and in time. He states it as a fact that if SMS would have taken it into account from the beginning, we would still have the exact same game as we have now, still going to be released on September 22nd and with that functionality not affecting the fidelity of the game. He states that SMS neglected to do this, and hence 'f*cked up'.


Also are we talking about mid-race saves done at any arbitrary point in time? Or are we talking about saving only when the car is in the pit box? The latter is vastly simpler because the engine is off, the tires aren't rolling, etc. The car is more or less in a quiescent state. For endurance racing, the pit box save would be perfectly acceptable.

But who says that a save with the car in the pits is easier? All the same parameters apply regarding tyre grip, temperatures, state of the suspension, what the AI are doing etc. The only difference is that some parameter values are zero because the car isn't moving, but they still are part of the full model and hence still need to be stored.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have this feature as well, but given my daily experience with complex software building I'm very wary of concluding that things should be simple to implement because they appear to be simple. :)

Schnizz58
05-07-2017, 22:28
I understood that yes, and that's what I addressed in my posting above yours, i.e. he assumes that taking it into the design is possible in the sense of still being able to deliver the game you want to deliver, and in time. He states it as a fact that if SMS would have taken it into account from the beginning, we would still have the exact same game as we have now, still going to be released on September 22nd and with that functionality not affecting the fidelity of the game. He states that SMS neglected to do this, and hence 'f*cked up'.
He didn't say it would be the exact same game. I think saying they f'ed up is too strong but the fact is that they had the option to do it how they wanted to and this is what they chose.


But who says that a save with the car in the pits is easier?
Ian Bell for one. Intuitively it has to be easier because you don't need to save the state for values that you already know.


All the same parameters apply regarding tyre grip, temperatures, state of the suspension, what the AI are doing etc. The only difference is that some parameter values are zero because the car isn't moving, but they still are part of the full model and hence still need to be stored.
Not true. If you know something is a certain value, whether it's zero or something else, you don't need to save that value.


Don't get me wrong, I would love to have this feature as well, but given my daily experience with complex software building I'm very wary of concluding that things should be simple to implement because they appear to be simple. :)
It's not that it appears to be simple. It's that it could have been simple (probably) if other design choices had been made. Those choices may have compromised something else, granted. However that's a price that might be worth paying. I'd sacrifice a little bit of physics realism for better game play.

rac-r
05-07-2017, 23:01
ok guys, let me explain my thoughts a bit further.
I'm sorry I said "f*cked up" - should have used friendlier words for driving into a dead-end street about the saving problem. wasn't supposed to be mean.

I understand the limit of ressources, and when you work on one feature another one might get cut. That's where they have to set priorities.
But seeing them in 2015 saying they already wanted the midrace saving feature, that it would be great and it just didn't get into the game because it was a matter of time until the release, this lets me assume they will have this feature set to a high priority when starting developing pCars 2.
So from that point of view, they should have cared about this feature and spared on other features that have not even beeing thought of in 2015. These other features can be part of pCars 3 someday.. but not important features that should already have been in pCars 1!
so if there is a ressource problem, they should manage to prioritize the right features. I don't know why other, new features, not known in 2015, are getting a higher priority than those we were waiting for so long?
wasn't there a post where it says that in pcars2, all the missed features that didn't find it's place in pcars1 will be cared about in pcars2 -first-? And then all the other ideas and new features?
I admint they have cared about -some- of these features.. like the indycar races/cars f.i. and a few others... but the save feature is a level above these imho.

when talking about a midrace saving feature, I'm talking about the possibility to save the game whenever you hit ESC/pause during the race. No need to drive into the pit first, this is an unnecessary, artifical obstacle, which could only be chosen by game-design, if the devs want to force the users only being able to save when having a pit-stop.
Technically, like i said, a memory dump is not ideal, but it would work (at least on pc). Far more elegant is a solution where all object state data is saved and compressed to a small file. It's not very difficult if the gamebase was being built with that in mind. Think of all the real-time-strategy games.. and the millions of states of all the objects on the map that need to be saved.. it's possible, and not a big deal.
F1 2016 (read F1 201x) always had this midrace saving feature. I actually was surprised *not* having such a feature in a racing game. I understand that pCars2 might be a bit more complex with it's simulations, but in the end, it's all classes, objects, states of attributes.. all of them could be saved pretty easy. I assume (=not knowing for sure!) they never had in mind they would be needing a possibility to save the game amidst the race. So they probably designed and coded everything without that in mind. And having no code base which makes it easy to store all these complex sim-data "is difficult" how they'd say. Still assuming, i think they would need to rewrite a lot of code to make saving "easy" and they maybe don't have the ressources to do so. But if they don't, they will be there in a few years again when pCars 3 is about to be released.. again saying "saving not possible, too difficult", because noone ever wanted to rewrite the code to make it finally easy... just because other new features always have priority...

let's hope there are some masterminds in their team who can still find a way for saving in pCars 2 (maybe later patches). I'd take my hat off if they're able to get this done.

Schnizz58
05-07-2017, 23:34
Well I'm willing to meet them halfway so if saving only at the end of a stint makes their lives easier, I can make that work.

Sankyo
06-07-2017, 08:21
Ian Bell for one. Intuitively it has to be easier because you don't need to save the state for values that you already know.
Yet they found it wasn't as easy as they thought it would be, or they would have done it already ;) Intuition ~= reality quite often :)



Not true. If you know something is a certain value, whether it's zero or something else, you don't need to save that value.
My point was that most of the physics-related parameters will not be zero when you're in the pits. Things like temperatures, grip levels, component wear, damage, weather, LiveTrack, AI state (most of which will be on the track when you are in the pits) are all things that continue to change when standing still so you cannot leave them out or set them to zero. There's only a few parameters that become zero when in the pits, and the rest is connected to those parameters but have their own state so they don't become zero when those parameters become zero. You still have to save all of them.



I'd sacrifice a little bit of physics realism for better game play.
Now you're already assuming that it's only a little bit of physics realism you'd have to sacrifice ;)

Schnizz58
06-07-2017, 12:56
Yet they found it wasn't as easy as they thought it would be, or they would have done it already ;) Intuition ~= reality quite often :)
They didn't find anything. They created this. They had the option to make it as easy or as hard as they wanted to. They chose to make it hard.




My point was that most of the physics-related parameters will not be zero when you're in the pits. Things like temperatures, grip levels, component wear, damage, weather, LiveTrack, AI state (most of which will be on the track when you are in the pits) are all things that continue to change when standing still so you cannot leave them out or set them to zero. There's only a few parameters that become zero when in the pits, and the rest is connected to those parameters but have their own state so they don't become zero when those parameters become zero. You still have to save all of them.
I know what your point was. It doesn't matter whether the values are zero or something else. Zero is just another number. If you already know them you don't need to save them.



Now you're already assuming that it's only a little bit of physics realism you'd have to sacrifice ;)
Now you're just being argumentative. It was stated at the beginning of this thread that the reason for abandoning state saves was the almighty Physics Engine. In an alternate universe where the architects baked in the ability to save from the beginning, it would be logical to assume that the physics would be less complex and probably less functional. How much less is unknown but I think we can assume that it would be at least as functional as PC1. So all I'm saying is that might be a tradeoff I'd make. The problem with the physics über alles approach is that if you aren't careful you can create a great simulation but not a very good game.

Roger Prynne
06-07-2017, 13:07
They didn't find anything. They created this. They had the option to make it as easy or as hard as they wanted to. They chose to make it hard.




I know what your point was. It doesn't matter whether the values are zero or something else. Zero is just another number. If you already know them you don't need to save them.



Now you're just being argumentative. It was stated at the beginning of this thread that the reason for abandoning state saves was the almighty Physics Engine. In an alternate universe where the architects baked in the ability to save from the beginning, it would be logical to assume that the physics would be less complex and probably less functional. How much less is unknown but I think we can assume that it would be at least as functional as PC1. So all I'm saying is that might be a tradeoff I'd make. The problem with the physics über alles approach is that if you aren't careful you can create a great simulation but not a very good game.

How would one go about doing that?

rac-r
06-07-2017, 13:15
...

The problem with the physics über alles approach is that if you aren't careful you can create a great simulation but not a very good game.

^ This. This really needs to be emphasized. It's still a game not a simulator for tech engineers. Balance is important, currently priorities tend to be towards simulation.

I would be happy if anyone from the developers could clarify a bit more in detail what the matter is with midrace-saving. And a honest estimation what the options are to implement this feature in pCars2.
Everything else is pretty much speculation.

Sankyo
06-07-2017, 13:18
I know what your point was. It doesn't matter whether the values are zero or something else. Zero is just another number. If you already know them you don't need to save them.
My point is that not many things are zero, or known. Leaving out 10 zeroes/knowns when you need to save 100,000 numbers will not make a noticeable difference.


Now you're just being argumentative. It was stated at the beginning of this thread that the reason for abandoning state saves was the almighty Physics Engine. In an alternate universe where the architects baked in the ability to save from the beginning, it would be logical to assume that the physics would be less complex and probably less functional. How much less is unknown but I think we can assume that it would be at least as functional as PC1. So all I'm saying is that might be a tradeoff I'd make. The problem with the physics über alles approach is that if you aren't careful you can create a great simulation but not a very good game.
That's the thing. You're assuming that the trade-off may be small. You're assuming that it would be at least as good as pC1. It's just assumptions, nothing real and hence nothing to base conclusions or judgments on.

Schnizz58
06-07-2017, 13:39
How would one go about doing that?
I have no idea what the development process is at SMS but I would add it to the requirements right from jump.


My point is that not many things are zero, or known. Leaving out 10 zeroes/knowns when you need to save 100,000 numbers will not make a noticeable difference.
That may be the case. Ian seemed to think differently. When we were discussing it for PC1, going from a live save to a pit save took the discussion from no friggin way to do-able.


That's the thing. You're assuming that the trade-off may be small. You're assuming that it would be at least as good as pC1. It's just assumptions, nothing real and hence nothing to base conclusions or judgments on.
First of all, I'm not assuming anything about the size of the tradeoff. I'm saying I'd take a hit in physics performance for the ability to save a race. How big of one? I don't know, exactly but a pretty big one. It's a big deal to me (possibly not for others, I'll admit). As for the assumption that PC2 physics is no worse than PC1, I feel like I'm on pretty good ground with that one.

Roger Prynne
06-07-2017, 13:53
Can we please end this discussion now, you've been told it's not going to happen (at least in pCARS2) so no need to go over old ground over and over.

Schnizz58
06-07-2017, 14:03
So I answer your question and you tell me to STFU? What the heck man? All I'm doing is responding to your and Remco's questions and comments. If you don't want to play anymore, drop out. Remco got this.

maTech
06-07-2017, 15:23
It feels like some people are searching something what is NOT in the game to complain about instead of being happy what IS in the game, or am I wrong? Just a feeling :rolleyes:

Roger Prynne
06-07-2017, 15:36
So you went from your original post.....

All I'm doing is responding to your and Remco's questions and comments. If you don't want to participate anymore, drop out. Remco got this.
And then edited it to this an hour later.....

So I answer your question and you tell me to STFU? What the heck man? All I'm doing is responding to your and Remco's questions and comments. If you don't want to play anymore, drop out. Remco got this.

To me that looks like your just looking for an argument, and I'm not going to rise to that.

Schnizz58
06-07-2017, 16:02
It feels like some people are searching something what is NOT in the game to complain about instead of being happy what IS in the game, or am I wrong? Just a feeling :rolleyes:
I didn't have to search for it. :rolleyes:


So you went from your original post.....

And then edited it to this an hour later.....


To me that looks like your just looking for an argument, and I'm not going to rise to that.
Yeah, it got to me the more I thought about it. You're usually pretty level-headed so your rudeness took me off guard. And yet I'm the one looking for a fight, lol.

Also: *you're

rac-r
06-07-2017, 16:09
why can't we get answers?
is there a community manager? someone who can talk to the devs?
from all we've seen in this thread, one thing is clear. There is the need for answers about this topic. the community is requesting.
And I can't find any source which answers the topic in a satisfying way. "too difficult" - is just to narrow.

Please someone capable, discuss this topic with us.

Mahjik
06-07-2017, 16:34
why can't we get answers?

Unfortunately, that's not how it works. To be fair, the devs are off finishing a game for us. But no, there won't be anyone from the development staff coming here to answer detailed implementation questions (or lack there of) on behalf of the community. Ian and others will sometimes pop in to answer a question or two, but it will not be at a detailed engineering level.

Roger Prynne
06-07-2017, 17:15
I didn't have to search for it. :rolleyes:


Yeah, it got to me the more I thought about it. You're usually pretty level-headed so your rudeness took me off guard. And yet I'm the one looking for a fight, lol.

Also: *you're

Please tell me where I was rude, and I'll make sure I'm not rude again.

Schnizz58
06-07-2017, 17:28
Please tell me where I was rude, and I'll make sure I'm not rude again.
It was rude of you to ask a question, receive an answer for it and then tell me to be quiet.

Roger Prynne
06-07-2017, 19:46
Hmmm OK not :rolleyes:

arniow
08-08-2017, 17:35
anyway, being a huge endurance fan, working 4 different shifts every month and 2 little kids which ask a lot of time/love/attention, the only thing that would keep me from getting PC2 is not being able to save during a race. Reading this discussion concludes that it won't happen...a shame, will cancel my pre-order tomorrow i guess...and answers like "don`t do endurance races then" are cheap and lame...what's the point of spending money on a game if you can`t enjoy it fully...BIG shame

dault3883
08-08-2017, 17:43
anyway, being a huge endurance fan, working 4 different shifts every month and 2 little kids which ask a lot of time/love/attention, the only thing that would keep me from getting PC2 is not being able to save during a race. Reading this discussion concludes that it won't happen...a shame, will cancel my pre-order tomorrow i guess...and answers like "don`t do endurance races then" are cheap and lame...what's the point of spending money on a game if you can`t enjoy it fully...BIG shame

you could still enjoy endurance races set out a weekend and have a couple of buddys that play too and invite them over to do an endurance race with me and my friend banner have already agreed to do that on my rig at my house one weekend you can work around not having the mid race saves but its up to you

banner77amc
10-08-2017, 20:14
I've done the enduro races myself just let the AI have at it for 6 hours and wake up and wait until next pit stop with some coffee/energy drink.

Dault we are going to dominate when that day comes!

R. Soulle
17-07-2018, 15:49
Unfortunately not��

This might be a workaround to enable you to save an endurance race, as long as you don't mind your console running for a long time. Go in to your console settings and then to power mode & startup. Select 'Do not turn off automatically'. Back out & boot up the game. When you get tired of racing, pit and hit pause. The game should stay in pause mode till you want to resume racing. I haven't tried this yet, but it might just work.

Schnizz58
17-07-2018, 16:01
This might be a workaround to enable you to save an endurance race, as long as you don't mind your console running for a long time. Go in to your console settings and then to power mode & startup. Select 'Do not turn off automatically'. Back out & boot up the game. When you get tired of racing, pit and hit pause. The game should stay in pause mode till you want to resume racing. I haven't tried this yet, but it might just work.

The only issue with that is that sometimes the FFB thread will crash when the game is paused and you'll have no FFB when you come back to it. If you use a controller, no problem.

R. Soulle
17-07-2018, 16:33
The only issue with that is that sometimes the FFB thread will crash when the game is paused and you'll have no FFB when you come back to it. If you use a controller, no problem.

Yeah, there's that. Wondering that if you had a controller plugged in as well as your wheel would it negate that? I always have mine wired as a second, because it's the only way to get to some of the in-game tune settings. The controller will stay on continuously as long as it's plugged into the console, or should. Thoughts?

Schnizz58
17-07-2018, 16:51
Yeah, there's that. Wondering that if you had a controller plugged in as well as your wheel would it negate that? I always have mine wired as a second, because it's the only way to get to some of the in-game tune settings. The controller will stay on continuously as long as it's plugged into the console, or should. Thoughts?

The only reason I mentioned a controller is that it has no FFB so you wouldn't miss it if it was gone. I guess the controller does have the rumble thingy so maybe that goes away when the FFB crashes. I don't know.

I wish this thread hadn't popped back up. I re-read Roger's post telling me to stuff it and it pissed me off all over again, lol.

Gregz0r
17-07-2018, 17:21
You really should be able too, because y’know, toilet breaks, doorbell/phone ringing, etc.
Geoff Crammond realised this in 1991, when he introduced full-length races into the first of his lauded ‘F1GP’ games.
For offline, obviously.

r200ti
17-07-2018, 20:33
You really should be able too, because y’know, toilet breaks, doorbell/phone ringing, etc.
Geoff Crammond realised this in 1991, when he introduced full-length races into the first of his lauded ‘F1GP’ games.
For offline, obviously.

100% correct, and great to bring up Geoffs game. It remains one of the few driving games - ever - where you could start a 2 hour race anytime, and finish it anytime. Brilliant.

But yes, for my 2p - this is a game at the end of the day. If i wanted to miss my family so i could piss in a seat ready for my next driver id go and do rent a drive 24 hour karting. (i dont piss in the seat btw, my mate does that the skinny runt)
Forcing us to not be able to partake in any distance races because we have lives is a bit of a cruel limitation.

venquessa
04-08-2018, 17:13
Physics does not stop you saving a game. The game being designed without save game being considered prevents saving a game.

If you want to write software that can save state you have to design it in from the start. It requires memory management to make sure that everything that needs to be saved to save state is contained in easy to serialize or data dump locations.

Physics is a bunch of values and equations that operate on them. If you save the values the equations will still work on reload.

On file size, I think some are over-estimating how much data is involved.

Game developers are well know for taking short cuts around thorny problems. How many games, for example, when you restart a race, room, quest, scene or whatever just clear the memory and reload the whole thing rather than attempt to restore it in place? Almost all of them. This is because it's just easier from a development point of view to just dump the memory and reload the game section fresh.

Saving games is similar. It's just easier to not consider it, which makes your memory management of state easier as you don't necessarily need to be strict about where it goes and individual parts of the game code can just allocate memory where-ever they want and not have to use memory managers to allocate memory for 'state' which can later be saved and reloaded.

Leper Messiah
07-08-2018, 09:03
I'm genuinely curious, how many racing sims allow mid race saves, I know GTR2 did (love that game) and above F1GP is mentioned (I had that too but can't remember much about it). If PC1+2 are the exceptions then yeah something is amiss, but if the majority of sims don't do mid race saves then maybe there are technical issues with it. (playing devils advocate here). Either way mid race save is definitely a feature I would like.

HockeyNick30
07-08-2018, 19:43
I'm genuinely curious, how many racing sims allow mid race saves, I know GTR2 did (love that game) and above F1GP is mentioned (I had that too but can't remember much about it). If PC1+2 are the exceptions then yeah something is amiss, but if the majority of sims don't do mid race saves then maybe there are technical issues with it. (playing devils advocate here). Either way mid race save is definitely a feature I would like.

NASCAR Racing 2003 Season did, and I believe its predecessors did too. Granted, there was no dynamic weather involved, nor time of day.

awaite85
07-08-2018, 20:33
"Will you able save during a race?"

Sentry87
07-08-2018, 22:25
My solution would be to be able to save a race at anytime but when you start it again the race resumes under a safety car or virtual safety car. It would retain the positions, time left in the race, also how many laps down cars are. This way it avoids the difficult task of the game remembering exactly where each car is on the track when the race is saved and all other variables

HockeyNick30
08-08-2018, 20:22
My solution would be to be able to save a race at anytime but when you start it again the race resumes under a safety car or virtual safety car. It would retain the positions, time left in the race, also how many laps down cars are. This way it avoids the difficult task of the game remembering exactly where each car is on the track when the race is saved and all other variables

That's exactly how it was on NR2003. Think of it like a red flag coming out for larger than life puddles on the track.

Large Portions
02-09-2018, 09:12
So...Have the devs sorted this out yet, I've been waiting since the launch to do an endurance race with the real time day night feature.

Cholton82
02-09-2018, 19:10
So...Have the devs sorted this out yet, I've been waiting since the launch to do an endurance race with the real time day night feature.

I can’t remember it ever being promised , I can tell you with certainty it won’t be a feature that comes to PCars 2.

Leper Messiah
05-09-2018, 10:07
NASCAR Racing 2003 Season did, and I believe its predecessors did too. Granted, there was no dynamic weather involved, nor time of day.

So....not many then!

to those complaining, I would understand if it was a common feature in other sims, but it's not...especially in the modern ones. Defo a feature I want though.