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DECATUR PLAYA
14-07-2017, 15:38
I just watched a WIP video of the IndyCars at Texas and the cars put down a insane amount of rubber on the track. You could actually see the race line get darker and darker after each lap. Good stuff SMS. I guess my question is can you lay down rubber like that in multiple racing grooves. Next question what are tire fall off rates like. In the video by the end of that run you could see the driver really struggling to stay in the racing groove.

Mad Al
14-07-2017, 15:56
The build up is based on LiveTrack 3.0 so if you have multiple lines being run, then, yes you would get multiple racing grooves, same as if it's wet and you have two distinct lines around a wet corner, you would get two distinct drying lines..

I actually did a drying line video ages ago where you could see the line dry on the track and on the put exit..

moustace
14-07-2017, 16:10
Did you see this comment by Roger Prynne:
"Please note that the overly black tyre rubber on the track is from an old build and was just for testing purposes."

So I guess the track will still rubber in, but not as quickly and exaggerated as you see in the Texas/Indy-video.

DECATUR PLAYA
14-07-2017, 16:12
The build up is based on LiveTrack 3.0 so if you have multiple lines being run, then, yes you would get multiple racing grooves, same as if it's wet and you have two distinct lines around a wet corner, you would get two distinct drying lines..

I actually did a drying line video ages ago where you could see the line dry on the track and on the put exit..

I watched that video. It was just crazy to see how much rubber was laid down at Texas and how defined the groove was lap after lap. You could actually see the car lose grip when the guy missed the groove. So I guess if you miss the line in the rain it will be trouble. In the Texas video the line is so defined to the point where you could actually see a strip in the middle where the tires weren't running. That's good stuff.

Mahjik
14-07-2017, 16:31
The "rubber" how it affects the cars will the same. The visual effect will be toned down.

DECATUR PLAYA
14-07-2017, 17:25
Did you see this comment by Roger Prynne:
"Please note that the overly black tyre rubber on the track is from an old build and was just for testing purposes."

So I guess the track will still rubber in, but not as quickly and exaggerated as you see in the Texas/Indy-video.

It looked exaggerated in the video but the representation of was still good. I get that its a little over done but I think it being over done in a early build shows how well it's built into the game.

In other words regardless of how it looks in the game you know it's there and working.

Taurus84_SK
01-08-2017, 12:06
So I guess if you miss the line in the rain it will be trouble.

IRL racing you better find another racing line in the rain, not the rubbered one because it's slippery on the rubber. Does it work like this in-game too?

Mahjik
01-08-2017, 12:25
IRL racing you better find another racing line in the rain, not the rubbered one because it's slippery on the rubber. Does it work like this in-game too?

Actually, it's not that slippery. Yes, there is "more" grip outside of the rubbered-in line on a real track (permanent circuits, as street circuits are different) but if you watch racing, the drivers rarely deviate from the normal racing line when racing in the wet. Why? The normal racing line is the "least amount of distance" to travel for a lap. Using the non-racing line, increases the amount of distance a driver needs to cover for a lap. To keep equal or better lap times, he needs to have a higher average speed with the longer distance. Rarely does driving off the normal line during the wet allow for enough of a speed difference to make it work. It can work in a passing situation for a corner, but not for an entire lap.

The main times you'll see the cars deviate is to avoid any pooling of water. PC2 will have slightly different grip levels with LiveTrack in the wet (off racing line verse on racing line) as well as water washing away the rubber build up.

Taurus84_SK
01-08-2017, 14:13
Nice to know, thanks

MaximusN
01-08-2017, 19:35
. Rarely does driving off the normal line during the wet allow for enough of a speed difference to make it work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHG20WjnuLQ

;)

It works like a charm.

Mahjik
01-08-2017, 19:58
It works like a charm.

You left off the rest of the quote but yes it can work for a pass.. Just not for an entire lap...

poirqc
01-08-2017, 20:20
You left off the rest of the quote but yes it can work for a pass.. Just not for an entire lap...

I remember one time where it rain way too much during a rent-a-kart session(on slicks). If you stay in the normal line, the kart would wobble like it was on ice. It was better if we stayed outside the line. Still really slippy because were were in heavy rain but still.

I wonder how it goes on regular rain tires.

Mahjik
01-08-2017, 21:29
Check the video in the following thread:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?50655-Project-CARS-2-SMS-Approved-WMD-made-Videos&p=1341774&viewfull=1#post1341774

You won't find the late Sean Edwards deviating much from a normal racing line (mostly just trying to get visibility).

MaximusN
01-08-2017, 21:39
You left off the rest of the quote but yes it can work for a pass.. Just not for an entire lap...

Most of the passing was off the racing line on different sections and if you look for the inbetweens where he's in clean air he is also off the racing line in a lot of areas(after he has passed Rosberg in turn 1 he still takes 3 way wide f.i.). Heck, they told other drivers to take that line over the radio. :) He was specifically feeling where the grip was behind the safety car. But indeed, not the whole lap. But that would make no sense, because a different line doesn't work 100% of the corners. But still it makes perfect sense not to take the racing line if the other line is faster, even if(or maybe even especially) you're not passing anyone.

Mahjik
01-08-2017, 21:47
Guys, you'll find these one off situations as nothing is ever always 100% one way. However, 99% of the time, they will be on the normal racing line mainly to avoid someone diving inside with just enough grip to make it work. They will risk someone finding more grip on the outside as it usually won't work out that there is enough speed to overcome the added distance. Sometimes, there is...

MaximusN
01-08-2017, 21:54
Google racing line rain and you'll know it's not just a one off thing. For one thing the whole tyre characteristic is more edgy in the rain so even if the grip is the same everywhere(no rubber effect) you'll have to corner differently to be faster. Traction is a scarce thing when wet, so you'll want the car straight fast. And tbh a Porsche is a bad example IMHO becuase it is rear engined so one of the least traction impaired car in the rain out there.

EDIT:
Indycar drivers on racing in the rain(spoiler: and different lines)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrAsTqbJ3bo

Mahjik
01-08-2017, 22:01
Google racing line rain and you'll know it's not just a one off thing.

Eh? I do this for real so I'm well aware of the behavior... Again, watch some actual rain races and see the lines that the drivers take. You'll find they are off the normal racing line fair less and typically only when there are large pools of water on the racing line.

MaximusN
01-08-2017, 22:09
So next to the Indycar drivers in my previous post, this guy also doesn't make any sense?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP5ZDNGcJdc

Mahjik
01-08-2017, 22:12
So next to the Indycar drivers in my previous post, this guy also doesn't make any sense?

Since you are twisting words, I said that most of the time there isn't enough grip to overcome the speed differential for covering more ground. Sometimes it works, but most of the time it doesn't which is why you'll find all drivers still running the normal race line. If that worked all the time, everyone would do it.

MaximusN
01-08-2017, 22:21
Since you are twisting words, I said that most of the time there isn't enough grip to overcome the speed differential for covering more ground. Sometimes it works, but most of the time it doesn't which is why you'll find all drivers still running the normal race line. If that worked all the time, everyone would do it.
I'm not twisting anything. I quote Graham Rahal at 2:20:
Typically you want to make sure you're driving off line alltimeNow I'm sure that is a bit exaggerated, but it's the opposite of normal racing lines. Not my words, his.

Mahjik
01-08-2017, 23:07
So next to the Indycar drivers in my previous post, this guy also doesn't make any sense?



I'm not twisting anything. B]


Yes you are.. No where did I say people "don't make sense".


I quote Graham Rahal at 2:20: Now I'm sure that is a bit exaggerated, but it's the opposite of normal racing lines. Not my words, his.

Typically you do. There is no question that payment without a layer of rubber provides better grip when wet (again, not street circuits as those are different). However, for many practical reasons, it doesn't work all the time which is why it's rare when it does and makes big headlines like with Max. This is why majority of the time when you watch rain races, they are still pretty much driving the same line (and still using 'some' curbing).

MaximusN
02-08-2017, 16:30
Yes you are.. No where did I say people "don't make sense".



We're at semantics level now. It was a question.


Typically you do. There is no question that payment without a layer of rubber provides better grip when wet (again, not street circuits as those are different). However, for many practical reasons, it doesn't work all the time which is why it's rare when it does and makes big headlines like with Max. This is why majority of the time when you watch rain races, they are still pretty much driving the same line (and still using 'some' curbing).


And I never talked in absolutes. I even agreed it wouldn't work a whole lap and always. But there is merrit to saying rain lines(and I'd add only in some sections of a track) are/can be different. And you're absolutely right street circuits are different, but I never mentioned them. And curbing and painted surfaces(like lines) in general are something to be very wary of in the rain. They can even catch you off guard on the road.

And we could go on forever about this, but Max making headlines could also prove that many (even top) drivers are not taking the fastest lines possible in the rain(Sao Paolo has been the same for eons and there were plenty rain races after all). So many drivers taking normal lines only proves that those lines are fast enough, it doesn't say that other lines couldn't be faster. And I kind of get why, racing is part muscle memory and if you deviate from that you're more prone to mistakes so that gets you out of your comfort zone. That and you can only find out how much grip there is if you drive that line and if there isn't any that could be the end of your race.

Mahjik
02-08-2017, 17:54
I can tell you that it has nothing to do with muscle memory. There are things that work, and things that don't. Sometimes one thing will work once, but most racers will stick with what works 90% of the time. You'll get those that have nothing to lose (Max) and will seek to be that 10%. Some will be successful once or twice taking a chance like that.... Some won't. Unfortunately, you'll only see the highlight reels of the few successful ones.

Take a look at the video I linked earlier of the late Sean Edwards. You'll see full rain conditions and pretty much full curb usage as well. There is just no absolute with these things as there are too many factors to say one way or another.

unknwn
03-08-2017, 08:55
By constantly putting yourself in situations that are out of your comfort zone (in this case risking to explore wet line) in the long run it is reasonable to expect to have more skill at doing this (considering that you don't crash and "burn"). I believe Max is better than "average" driver at wet exactly due this. More skill will result in more consistent ability to find additional grip in wet line without making mistakes. Just like performing any other activity.

http://nurburgring.org.uk/wetline.php