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twistking
14-07-2017, 18:05
Hello,
with Project Cars 2 coming along nicely, i feel there are only few features left, that are either still missing, or just not yet talked about.

From the Previews, that are available, it seems, that the game is still missing a way to set weather progression, that is somewhat random, yet progresses realistically and gives you a simple (!) weather forecast to work with.
Instead of having completely random weather that can result in "thunderstorm / sunny / heavy rain / sunny", i would like to set up a general weather theme and a chance for it to realistically go in some direction from there.

So maybe you could set "heavy clouds" with a "15% chance of of light rain" and "5% chance of getting caught in a passing storm/heavy rain at a later time".

The game would then create a realistic progression with many slots, but instead of showing the actual progression to you, you would get only vague updates while in the session, where the forecast gets more precise over time, while you yourself, or your AI crew monitors the actual weather and forecast. I think the forecast would be the important feature. Having some information what lies ahead of you, but not absolute knowledge over progression. In pcars1 you could basically count the minutes of each slot and could calculate when the next weather shift would occur, even with the slight randomness to slot timing. (While this could be fun to troll the AI with perfectly anticipated tire changes, it was neither realistic nor challenging).

I think having a system like this would be essential for using the new weather features in a meaningful way without exploiting the system (knowing exactly what comes next), or being unrealistically f***ed by random weather putting a 10min thunderstorm between clear sky without warning other than the "we are expecting rain in the next 10min or so" (which would trigger with the first rain drops, when you had weather progression on faster speed).

As a big fan of project cars from the beginning, i really hope this feature could be included:)
If you also can improve tuning-setup-UI and tuning-setup management/sharing/help/documentation, than i'm sure pCars II will be a dream come true!!!

Itsdoomsday48
14-07-2017, 19:11
Not really going to see how this will make a difference unless all you run is endurance races. You would still have to tell the game what weather you want to start the race under (because you don't want to do random). So for example if you start the race under heavy clouds and was using the realistic system you're talking about, wouldn't you expect it to rain at some point? Same if you start the race with clear skies, would you expect it to rain anytime during the race? The only way weather can work I believe is the way PC has done it by allowing you to set the weather for how you want it during the race

twistking
14-07-2017, 19:22
I don't know, what's there to not understand.
Sure, you'll set the starting weather. If you want to play it safe, you'd set it to 0% chance of rain, but if you'd like to have a challenge, you can set it to a 10% chance of rain (over the next hour). So if you run 5* weather acceleration, a 12min race, would give you a 10% chance of rain at some point. Or it would rain in 12 ut of 100 races you do... (you get the point)
So most likely you'd be safe, but it would still dramatically change your pit strategy even if it turns out, to not rain at all.

You may have noticed the "random" weather slot, that should make the weather more unpredictable. Only that this is a stupid implementation, since it chains up slots arbitrarily and therefore unrealistically and does so without giving you any hint (forecast) to work with.

Itsdoomsday48
14-07-2017, 19:39
It's just not realistic weather though. If you start the race with clear skies or heavy clouds but set chance of rain to 10%, its not going to rain in either scenarios, even though realistically heavy clouds would call for more than a 10% chance of rain. I think you're stuck in the bind of wanting to have random weather but have it happen realistically and I can understand that. The only solution I could see would be to have real time weather at the tracks ( something that was experimented with past EA Sports games for example) but that would be asking a lot from the developers. Real time weather also means only being able to run the race in real time, so I don't see how it would ever work, again unless you were running much longer races

Mahjik
14-07-2017, 19:43
That was talked about for PC1. Keep in mind, it's a sim for cars, not weather. ;)

Mad Al
14-07-2017, 19:48
Not to mention, it's a bit late in the day to start a complete rewrite of the weather system

Itsdoomsday48
14-07-2017, 19:49
That was talked about for PC1. Keep in mind, it's a sim for cars, not weather. ;)

I'm just trilled to finally have a racing game that not only lets you adjust the weather but gives you so many options for weather. It's frustrating how with even their newest installment FM7 is still behind in this re-guard but hey their loss

Mahjik
14-07-2017, 19:52
I'm just trilled to finally have a racing game that not only lets you adjust the weather but gives you so many options for weather. It's frustrating how with even their newest installment FM7 is still behind in this re-guard but hey their loss

Wait until you play with the seasons. It's awesome to be able to run a race with all the trees green, then flip to a different month and all of the trees are brown.. ;)

twistking
14-07-2017, 20:54
If you start the race with clear skies or heavy clouds but set chance of rain to 10%, its not going to rain in either scenarios, even though realistically heavy clouds would call for more than a 10% chance of rain.
Ok. now you trying deliberately not to understand me. That was obviously just a crude example. Also i don't see why heavy clouds would not have rain probability under 10%!????

It's perfectly fine, that not everyone is interested in this options, but i can't understand how to argue against it. This is a feature request / wish by a humble fan and not the official development roadmap. So even dev priorities are not really an argument.

So, to simplify it for everyone to understand. I'm not asking for a dynamic weather simulation, but a clever way to automatically fill up random slots and additionaly a logic (that is the only "complex" part) that allows to give a "forecast" type info to the player without revealing the weather slot setup.
As an example:
You choose starting weather and pick random for one or all remaining slots.
You choose a rain probability (f.e.: NO rain, very low chance, low chance, medium chance, high chance)
The game populates the weather slots depending on the rain probability. It would only consider your "rain probability" input, the number of slots already populated with "rainy" weather and also it would also rate the "rain level" of a weather event (light rain = 1, heavy rain = 3, thunderstorm = 4 etc.)

Up to this point we are talking about some dozen lines of code and one additional UI element.

The most complex problem would be, to feed back the assigned slots to the player in form of a forecast with some kind of error in it, so that the player can not easily reverse-engineer the assigned slots from the forecast, that is presented to him.

microlomaniac
14-07-2017, 21:23
Feeling the need to chime in here.

I think a realistic way to enhance the weather selector would be an improvement of the "random" slot. No more, no less. Maybe multiple, different "random" settings to choose from.
i.e. a list of weather types to choose from would be:
- Sunny
- Light Cloud
- Heavy Cloud
- Overcast
- Rain
- etc (what's been there in PC1)
and in addition:
- Random: 0% rain probability
- Random: 20% rain probability
- Random: 50% rain probability
- Random: 80% rain probability

Obviously, with a random weather slot, it would be nice, if not absolutely necessary, to also randomize the time it takes for the weather change to kick in.


Last but not least, some answers to a couple of posts:

@Mahjik:
Cars do drive in weather. The stunning seasonal conditions simulation in PC2 would obviously be pointless otherwise.

@Mad Al:
Nobody asked for a rewrite of the weather system, as far as I can tell. Let's not assume things, shall we.

Mahjik
14-07-2017, 21:38
https://i.imgflip.com/yrwss.jpg


@Mahjik:
Cars do drive in weather. The stunning seasonal conditions simulation in PC2 would obviously be pointless otherwise.

Mad Al
14-07-2017, 21:38
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/forumdisplay.php?131-Feature-Suggestions

how about this goes to where it should be....

Roger Prynne
14-07-2017, 21:41
^ Good point..... done.

breyzipp
15-07-2017, 09:31
Keep in mind, it's a sim for cars, not weather. ;)

Good thing I was not taking a sip of my coffee or I'd had to clean my keyboard now. :D

microlomaniac
15-07-2017, 10:38
That was a really helpful post, Mahjik. Thank you.

Now at least I remember the reason I didn't post much on the forums in the early pCARS1 days.

amazed
15-07-2017, 10:44
That was a really helpful post, Mahjik. Thank you.

Now at least I remember the reason I didn't post much on the forums in the early pCARS1 days.

And with 4 posts, nice to see you increased! :D

microlomaniac
15-07-2017, 11:00
Well, thank you! (bam! five!)

Mahjik
15-07-2017, 14:34
That was a really helpful post, Mahjik. Thank you.

Now at least I remember the reason I didn't post much on the forums in the early pCARS1 days.

You stated that cars drive in weather.. That is obvious and the reason SMS included various weather types to begin with.. Did that need to be stated? No, as that is obvious.

However, there will be limitations to the weather system in PC. Why? It's not a weather simulator.. SMS is simulating enough to have varying conditions for "racing", but weather is not the focus... racing is the focus..

Trippul G
15-07-2017, 15:10
https://youtu.be/PxHP5pMd4mI

So I was checking out Steeljockey's recent menu video, and I got thinking about the weather system. One thing that kind of worries me is that it doesn't seem like we have an option for truly "dynamic" weather (at least when setting up our own races). Sure, we have "random", but it doesn't seem like that's the same thing.

What I want is something like, for example, in the F1 series of games, you can set weather to Dynamic and it might rain for 5 minutes then clear up, it might be sunny the entire time, it might be overcast for twenty one minutes, rain for 7, and then be light clouds. The point is, not only is the TYPE of weather unknown, but so is the LENGTH OF TIME for which it will last.

The system that I'm seeing in PCARS2 worries me because the default behavior with the weather slots seems to be that each slot lasts for exactly an hour. It seems that you can accelerate the speed at which the transitions occur, so that each slot only lasts for, say, ten minutes...but it's still a fixed length of time. So you'll know for example that if you're on track and it starts raining, you've only got to wait it out for ten minutes until the weather will change to something else.

Can anyone with more knowledge of the game offer some insight regarding this? Is it possible to have truly dynamic weather that is random not only in type but also in length of duration?

Trippul G
15-07-2017, 15:19
Also, say you set up four "Random" slots. Is it possible that we could then get Foggy, Clear, Blizzard, followed by a Thunderstorm? Or will the game take location and time of year into account and be a bit more sensible/realistic in its "randomness"?

Mahjik
15-07-2017, 15:22
Or will the game take location and time of year into account and be a bit more sensible/realistic in its "randomness"?

Yes, the weather and locations will be tied to scenarios that make sense.

snipeme77
15-07-2017, 15:25
Here's my question, If I make a 4 slot random weather pattern, will the weather slots repeat after the 4, or will the game pick 4 new ones?

twistking
15-07-2017, 16:00
Even with the random weather being selected arbitrarily, it would greatly improve the gameplay, if we could at least get a very basic forecast to work with. Just a hint of what to expect, so that you can plan your pit strategy accordingly.

At event start this could be very vague: "Chance of rain in the last quarter of the race" This forecast would consider race lengths, weather slots and weather progression acceleration, but would also deliberately introduce some error.
While racing, the forecast/warning can be more precise, as the weather events comes closer: "Expect Rain within the next 10min until race ends". This would also have to consider weather progression acceleration, but could be without error.

This could be done in form of Text only. Mabe with generic voice-over "check new weather info" or sth.

I think the non-arbitrary weather would still be cool, but with a very simple "forecast" feature like this, the random weather might work well enough for most situations.
Maybe even limit the forecast feature to up to 2 times or 5 times weather acceleration setting, so that the logic only has to deal with a reasonable amount of upcoming weather changes per time.




The system that I'm seeing in PCARS2 worries me because the default behavior with the weather slots seems to be that each slot lasts for exactly an hour. It seems that you can accelerate the speed at which the transitions occur, so that each slot only lasts for, say, ten minutes...but it's still a fixed length of time.

In the first game, the duration was also a little bit random. Also there was a blending period between the slots, which resulted in a weather mix, so to speak.
In practice it worked better than you might think. I would agree though, that more options would be even better;)

Trippul G
15-07-2017, 21:03
Another question I have is this...if you pick four "Random" slots, and you start off getting light rain, does that then effectively mean that light rain is off the table for the other three slots? Or could you (however unlikely it may be) wind up with 4 sunny slots?

Trippul G
15-07-2017, 21:19
Carrying on with that thought, I think it would be nice if, for example say you picked four Random slots and chose to run at Dubai. It would be nice if the game weighted those random slots to tend to be typical of real-world weather at that location based on the in-game time of year of the event. So Dubai, you'd have four random slots but most likely they'd all be filed with either sunshine, some clouds, or maybe haze. Spa in the late summer, you'd be very likely to get rain. If every slot can be truly random (so that weather types can occur more than once and for example you could potentially have an all wet session), that might go some ways toward making things feel a bit less scripted and predictable.

Speaking of predictable, I'm all for having some sort of weather forecast in-game which is at least a little bit more detailed than what we had in PCARS1. To make the weather and the resulting changing track conditions such an important part of PCARS2 and then not have a decent method to convey a predicted weather forecast to you, that would be a real shame IMO.

twistking
16-07-2017, 00:38
from the Q&A @ gtplanet:

Personally I hate this "slots" business, too nerdy. I think for pC3 we'll just ask you to pick the race date and "% precipitation" and the game will figure out all the slots for you. It also gets you the variance you guys are asking for, bit of surprise element and also boosts the replay value for career events.

Trippul G
16-07-2017, 00:52
^^Interesting. That sounds like a much more elegant solution.

I think I'd like to see an even more simplified option, where you could choose "real weather" or something to that effect, where you simply choose where and when you want to race, and your chance of precipitation is based on location and time of year. For example, Sonoma or Willow Springs in July? Pretty good chance it's going to be sunny. Same places in November or December? Chance of rain goes up to maybe 30 or 40%. Alternatively, we could still have the option of choosing the exact weather we want, but an option to just pick where and when to race while the game sorts out all the weather, I think would be brilliant.

twistking
16-07-2017, 13:37
from the Q&A @ gtplanet:[...]

Please note though, that he refers to a "pC3" here unfortunately. So it's probably not on the list for second installment. However if the current solution is acknowledged by the devs to be lacking, there may be hope for at least little improvments or a later addition with a patch/dlc for pC2.

twistking
18-07-2017, 13:30
Another idea for less arbitrary weather, would be the very simple option to randomize the sequence of the slots instead of having arbitrary "random" slots at all.

You would choose 4 slots (more would be even better) of possible weather. F.e.: light cloud, heavy cloud, overcast, light rain
Check "random sequence"
With f.e. 5 times weather acceleration that gives you roughly 50 minutes of a non repeating pattern.
You set up your race to last roughly 25 minutes (for example) and you got random weather from a set that is not arbitrary, but still randomized. In this case you would get a 50% chance of light rain at some point, if my math is correct.

It's not a perfect solution, but it would solve the biggest problems about weather randomization, with very little effort.
Before the event, you would see, what weather to expect in general (because you can see the "pool" of weather slots), but in my example you would neither know at what point it will rain, nor if it will rain at all.

The only thing left to be done then, would be to have the pit engineers weather updates ("expeting rain in next 10minutes" etc.) to take into account the weather acceleration settings, so that the warnings are actually helpful.

Javaniceday
18-07-2017, 17:29
Yes, the weather and locations will be tied to scenarios that make sense.

Mahjik, can you please expand on this? This is a really confusing aspect of the game. The object is not to criticize, people just need to know how it works, what the limitations are, what the rules are around the weather system.

So for instance, if you choose 3 random weather slots, they'll be tied to "scenarios that make sense". so in dubai it might be dry, dry, dry? In Silverstone it might be cloudy, light rain, heavy cloud? And not, thunderstorm, sunny, snow? Is this verified?

If you choose real weather, how many slots is that? how long does each last? will the weather change? We really need an in depth explanation of how the weather system is being set up.

Mahjik
18-07-2017, 17:37
If you choose real weather, how many slots is that? how long does each last? will the weather change? We really need an in depth explanation of how the weather system is being set up.

Honestly, there are still pieces that are getting tidied up so no one has responded as no one knows exactly what will end up in the final release. Originally it was said that only weather that makes sense for the track location will be available (i.e. if it never snows in a location, that won't be an option). However, even that is in question at the moment so you just need to relax and wait for the information to become available.

Best I can tell you right now is that if you pick 3 random slots with a date of June, the weather options will be randomized between the weather options that are possible in that location for that time of year (and it would be possible to duplicate some of the options, so rain, rain, dry, etc).

Mattze
18-07-2017, 21:33
If this is the state, I don't understand why it is rumored that there is no random weather in career mode. Four random slots in each race and everything is fine. Each career event will be unique rather than a scripted procedure. But maybe the wrong thread ...

twistking
19-07-2017, 14:38
If this is the state, I don't understand why it is rumored that there is no random weather in career mode. Four random slots in each race and everything is fine. Each career event will be unique rather than a scripted procedure. But maybe the wrong thread ...

well, if they set up the random weather with these arbitrary "random" slots, you could theoretically get an event with "tunderstorm, thunderstorm, thunderstorm", which would be highly unrealistic, as such an event woudl be postponed for obvious reasons. Also you would probably get way too much "wet" weather, with every single event having a high chance of rain at some point.

That is the reason i'm asking for the very small feature of randomozing not the weather slot itself, but the sequenze of slots. So each event could be set up with a "pool" of possible weather events and the game randomizing the sequenze and with that also generating the possibility of some slots not to occur at all, if event lengths is shorter than the lengths of the weather pattern, which should be the case for most "casual" events.