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redrick
21-08-2017, 00:52
Project Cars, not to mention Project Cars 2, has all the features in one package that are of most importance to me far more than any other game that is or has been on the market. I originally pre-ordered it and couldn't wait. I have the console version for PS4. Now I find myself surprised that I am even considering getting PCars 2. The reason?

It should come as no surprise to any of you that get around to other forums that the game is often referred to as "PBugs".

The advertisements for PCars 2 point out that much attention has been given to customer suggestions and complaints. (Re-designing the hand controller is an example).

Nothing would be more important and effective to me and, I believe, many others, than a simple acknowledgement from "The Management" (Bandai, Slightly Mad or whoever) that the inevitable problems, faults, flaws, and bugs could have been handled better with the first game and that there are definite plans in place to do a much better job of fixing things this go 'round.

An apology and a promise and many of us would find it impossible to keep our mouse points off that pre-order button.

Very sincerely,

Rick

RacingAtHome
21-08-2017, 01:47
Good luck getting a response to this from anyone with any significance at SMS. They've already admitted the flaws of the first game. E.g. The aggressiveness of the AI, the formerly poor aspects of the handling model causing difficulties to drift, complicated UI design.
Andy Tudor, Rod Chong and the rest have done so vocally in press events and the like. Ian Bell, The_American and others on GTPlanet. They've done it. You've just not listened to them.

FIA
21-08-2017, 02:53
Yes but lets hope thay have learned alot from old game, and it gets tested on consoles better
we just need a playable game with good FFB, good handling, better online play without shuttering and lag
and this online champ with AI, but this is coming after release :mad:

if we can get this with the day1 game it should be ok

redrick
21-08-2017, 06:31
Good luck getting a response to this from anyone with any significance at SMS. They've already admitted the flaws of the first game. E.g. The aggressiveness of the AI, the formerly poor aspects of the handling model causing difficulties to drift, complicated UI design.
Andy Tudor, Rod Chong and the rest have done so vocally in press events and the like. Ian Bell, The_American and others on GTPlanet. They've done it. You've just not listened to them.

And you've just not listened to me. I'm not talking about flaws in the design of the game. I'm talking about fixing bugs. Things that are obviously busted that will turn up post-release in any game and require sufficient staff and resources to fix within a reasonable amount of time. Not conceptual things that could even be argued about, but nuts-and bolts things like changing the controller steering settings causing the acceleration settings to change, or incorrect tire temperatures being displayed. Bugs. That are not fixed after over a year past being reported.

SlowBloke
21-08-2017, 08:31
And you've just not listened to me. I'm not talking about flaws in the design of the game. I'm talking about fixing bugs. Things that are obviously busted that will turn up post-release in any game and require sufficient staff and resources to fix within a reasonable amount of time. Not conceptual things that could even be argued about, but nuts-and bolts things like changing the controller steering settings causing the acceleration settings to change, or incorrect tire temperatures being displayed. Bugs. That are not fixed after over a year past being reported.

Numerous videos and forum posts by various SMS staff including Ian Bell have acknowledged too many bugs as well in PCars 1.

Almost a year of monthly patches addressed many many bugs (and introduced new content).

Some remained for various reasons and I think its fair to assume most of those were either not possible to replicate, unable to pinpoint to correct, were too dangerous to mess with because the fix would involve high risks of further issues being introduced or were just plain too expensive to fix (ie AI ovals would be a combo of 3rd and 4th point).

Sankyo
21-08-2017, 08:44
Numerous videos and forum posts by various SMS staff including Ian Bell has acknowledged too many bugs as well in PCars 1.

Almost a year of monthly patches addressed many many bugs (and introduced new content).

Some remained for various reasons and I think its fair to assume most of those were either not possible to replicate, unable to pinpoint to correct, were too dangerous to mess with because the fix would involve high risks of further issues being introduced or were just plain too expensive to fix (ie AI ovals would be a combo of 3rd and 4th point).

Exactly this. I'm not sure how SMS 'could have handled the issues better' with the first game. They listened. They admitted there were issues to be addressed. They made patches on a monthly basis for a year. They gave away free content. Personally I think that there are a lot of companies out there that do a lot worse.

Fat Trash Man
21-08-2017, 11:09
These guys have done an amazing job from what I have seen. Sure Project Cars 1 had some issues/problems etc. But what a blessing that has been. Since evidently they have worked really hard with the new game, so much so that it has lifted the bar for all racing games on every level. These guys are now without question the new leaders !!

Awesome. Well done ������

Fat Trash Man has pre ordered and counting the days !!!

honespc
21-08-2017, 11:23
The bug I fear the most to not have been ironed out is the steering rotation one, which happens online mostly. When you join a lobby for instance on an open wheel or gt car (with steering usually ranging from 360 to 540 default factory setting, you know without changing the car steering slider in the setup menu). Then you begin driving only to suddenly realize you're using your wheel to its full extent marked on your control panel, either 900 or 1080, and 1:1 with the in-game virtual one. I mean imagine an open wheel at 900 lol.

Then you need to exit, reload game and etc, and even then you almost always can't manage the game to get it right again, until you join another lobby or play alone in the same circuit with the same car, for then getting so mad when seeing the car steering rotation again being what It was originally. But you had to exit the session first, and lose the fun you were looking for.

For now It's been confirmed that the steering rotation changes will now apply without leaving and reloading track, but still no info on the one above mentioned, which is an absolutely souring far more serious one.

I think this has been the most disturbing bug in pc1 by far, and here's hoping it was definitely sorted for good. Could any SMS member confirm this btw?

redrick
21-08-2017, 12:34
Numerous videos and forum posts by various SMS staff including Ian Bell have acknowledged too many bugs as well in PCars 1.

Almost a year of monthly patches addressed many many bugs (and introduced new content).

Some remained for various reasons and I think its fair to assume most of those were either not possible to replicate, unable to pinpoint to correct, were too dangerous to mess with because the fix would involve high risks of further issues being introduced or were just plain too expensive to fix (ie AI ovals would be a combo of 3rd and 4th point).

I don't know about fair to assume, or, more to the point, fair to expect us to assume. I know the bugs that made the game unenjoyable for me were possible to replicate. So, there were too many bugs and after a year of trying they were unable or unwilling to fix them all. I guess we can hope that by admitting there were too many bugs he intends not to duplicate the same situation but it doesn't exactly sound like a firm assurance. We just have to gamble on whether we get PCars 2 or PBugs 2. And we have almost exactly a month to decide whether to pre-order. I know we probably don't come to the same conclusion at this point in time, but am I making a correct description of the situation? I'm honestly open to your ideas and any information you have. If PCars 2 is what it's advertised to be it would be the answer to my dreams, but if it goes the way of its predecessor it would be, for me, a nightmare. I remember waiting month by month for those fixes that never did the job, and then the company seeming to just give up and if that remains a clear possibility I really don't want to go through it again.

The thing is you seem to find the situation last time ultimately acceptable, which I respect. But it wasn't acceptable for me and I'm just looking not for an argument, but for some kind of reasonably believable assurance it will be different this time. I've read all the messages here as of about 20-30 minutes ago when I began writing this (I've thought about it a lot) and haven't seen enough to give any modern business the benefit of the doubt. But I'm open to anything else you or anyone else may have and will even make a point of passing it on to others that have totally given up on PCars.

Sincerely, really,

Rick

RacingAtHome
21-08-2017, 13:23
I don't know about fair to assume, or, more to the point, fair to expect us to assume. I know the bugs that made the game unenjoyable for me were possible to replicate. So, there were too many bugs and after a year of trying they were unable or unwilling to fix them all.

Welcome to the games industry. Companies have titles to make to make money and sometimes, fixing small and manageable bugs after even 6 months makes little sense as they have a future title to work on. SMS did it for a year.


And you've just not listened to me. I'm not talking about flaws in the design of the game. I'm talking about fixing bugs. Things that are obviously busted that will turn up post-release in any game and require sufficient staff and resources to fix within a reasonable amount of time. Not conceptual things that could even be argued about, but nuts-and bolts things like changing the controller steering settings causing the acceleration settings to change, or incorrect tire temperatures being displayed. Bugs. That are not fixed after over a year past being reported.

See above. Again, the same can be said for bugs. They've admitted their QA wasn't good enough at least for console for PC1 and Ian Bell has stated that there is 9 months of QA aimed at improving the console experience at launch starting from January 17. People choose what they look at and didn't read that.

amazed
21-08-2017, 13:34
Another "spanner in the works" for the support of PC1, particularly on the PS4, was the removal of support for Fanatec by Sony, this effectively locked the console out of any further updates and bugfixes.

IIRC the pc version of PC1 received a couple of bugfixes after support stopped for the consoles.

hkraft300
21-08-2017, 14:45
So, there were too many bugs and after a year of trying they were unable or unwilling to fix them all. I guess we can hope that by admitting there were too many bugs he intends not to duplicate the same situation but it doesn't exactly sound like a firm assurance.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Tudor and Co at nearly every public engagement have said "we F'd this that and the other in #1 and we fixed what we could and for #2 we've rebuilt the bad parts".

Brave and honest of them but they've shot themselves in the foot too. The reply to their honesty will be "you screwed up pc1 so we don't trust you to not to screw up pc2".

Pc2 will have glitches and bugs. I'll bet on it.

I'll also bet SMS will do a damn fine job of fixing and improving it post release.

Fight-Test
21-08-2017, 20:50
The bug I fear the most to not have been ironed out is the steering rotation one, which happens online mostly. When you join a lobby for instance on an open wheel or gt car (with steering usually ranging from 360 to 540 default factory setting, you know without changing the car steering slider in the setup menu). Then you begin driving only to suddenly realize you're using your wheel to its full extent marked on your control panel, either 900 or 1080, and 1:1 with the in-game virtual one. I mean imagine an open wheel at 900 lol.

Then you need to exit, reload game and etc, and even then you almost always can't manage the game to get it right again, until you join another lobby or play alone in the same circuit with the same car, for then getting so mad when seeing the car steering rotation again being what It was originally. But you had to exit the session first, and lose the fun you were looking for.

For now It's been confirmed that the steering rotation changes will now apply without leaving and reloading track, but still no info on the one above mentioned, which is an absolutely souring far more serious one.

I think this has been the most disturbing bug in pc1 by far, and here's hoping it was definitely sorted for good. Could any SMS member confirm this btw?

Just change the rotation once in the main menu for that car and you don't have to touch again. You don't need to restart the game ever but if you are in a game lobby when you change rotation then you need to back out of room and rejoin but no need to restart. Now if you having issues with the wheel rotation after you have set it (not in game lobby) then you need to do your calibration on wheel. I would find that at times when I would change rotation the wheel would go to full degrees, maybe happened 10 times in 100's of hours but all you need to do is re-calibrate wheel in game but restarting will work. I do also remember that guys who would tune alot of ffb going in and out of lobby would lose the degrees of rotation randomly and had to re-calibrate or restart so maybe you getting a gambit of issues. You don't need to restart though. I run 6:9:1 on almost every car and never had a issue if I changed in lobby.

redrick
21-08-2017, 21:58
People choose what they look at and didn't read that.

Well really sorry about that. Look, really not looking for an argument, but our experience with PCars hasn't exactly encouraged us to run searches every other day
or hang on every word these guys spout. If they've managed to sell you than go ahead and use it to sell us.

Read GTE Pilot's post above and welcome to the Gaming Industry. What I just can't figure is why you guys have so much faith in SMS. Love to be enlightened. Reasonable reasons for what's happened in the past just add to the probability of it's happening again from what I've heard so far.

honespc
22-08-2017, 12:29
Just change the rotation once in the main menu for that car and you don't have to touch again. You don't need to restart the game ever but if you are in a game lobby when you change rotation then you need to back out of room and rejoin but no need to restart. Now if you having issues with the wheel rotation after you have set it (not in game lobby) then you need to do your calibration on wheel. I would find that at times when I would change rotation the wheel would go to full degrees, maybe happened 10 times in 100's of hours but all you need to do is re-calibrate wheel in game but restarting will work. I do also remember that guys who would tune alot of ffb going in and out of lobby would lose the degrees of rotation randomly and had to re-calibrate or restart so maybe you getting a gambit of issues. You don't need to restart though. I run 6:9:1 on almost every car and never had a issue if I changed in lobby.Not the issue I was talking about.

bradleyland
22-08-2017, 14:09
Read GTE Pilot's post above and welcome to the Gaming Industry. What I just can't figure is why you guys have so much faith in SMS. Love to be enlightened. Reasonable reasons for what's happened in the past just add to the probability of it's happening again from what I've heard so far.

Most of the folks here have acknowledged the shortcomings of pCARS 1 release. Some have even gone so far as to say they expect bugs in pCARS 2; I know I do. No one can see the future though, so all we have to go on is what SMS have said about the way pCARS 1 progressed. There are several posts in here that reference those comments.

Ultimately, I'm not sure what you're looking to get out of this thread? You have boiled this down to some nuanced distinction between SMS admitting they screwed up, and some kind of assurance that they'll handle bugs better this time around. The problem is, you haven't really said what that means. Do you expect pCARS 2 to have no bugs? Do you expect pCARS 2 bugs to be fixed within a specific time period? Do you even know if that's possible?

I don't mean this to be harsh, but most of these kinds of threads are made out of ignorance. Specifically, ignorance of software development and business decisions. You're a customer, and of course, you don't have to understand any of this stuff. If you care to take that hands-off approach, then you have one decision to make: buy the game, or don't. But when a thread full of people point out that SMS have acknowledged the issues with pCARS 1 and have committed to do better, I'm not sure what more there is to be said?

bigal1000
22-08-2017, 16:58
I improvement close the thread .........

RacingAtHome
22-08-2017, 17:11
I improvement close the thread .........

Yeah. This thread is only going to go one way.

Konan
22-08-2017, 17:26
Just a typical yey/ney sayers' discussion...as long as it's kept civilised it's allowed...
No one is obligated to pre-order...the game will sell itself come sept 22nd...

honespc
22-08-2017, 19:29
.the game will sell itself come sept 22nd...and that day can not come any sooner...

redrick
22-08-2017, 22:10
Most of the folks here have acknowledged the shortcomings of pCARS 1 release. Some have even gone so far as to say they expect bugs in pCARS 2; I know I do. No one can see the future though, so all we have to go on is what SMS have said about the way pCARS 1 progressed. There are several posts in here that reference those comments.

Ultimately, I'm not sure what you're looking to get out of this thread? You have boiled this down to some nuanced distinction between SMS admitting they screwed up, and some kind of assurance that they'll handle bugs better this time around. The problem is, you haven't really said what that means. Do you expect pCARS 2 to have no bugs? Do you expect pCARS 2 bugs to be fixed within a specific time period? Do you even know if that's possible?

I don't mean this to be harsh, but most of these kinds of threads are made out of ignorance. Specifically, ignorance of software development and business decisions. You're a customer, and of course, you don't have to understand any of this stuff. If you care to take that hands-off approach, then you have one decision to make: buy the game, or don't. But when a thread full of people point out that SMS have acknowledged the issues with pCARS 1 and have committed to do better, I'm not sure what more there is to be said?

More specifics on what's being planned to do a better faster job of fixing bugs.

To be honest I want to be convinced to buy PCars 2. The very ugly experience I had with PCars stands in the way.

I know that all software and hardware/firmware has bugs.

Yes, a commitment to fix bugs at least with a target date and to have more people and resources on hand to do that this time than last time.

No, I don't know if that's possible. A feel for how possible and how likely is one of the things I hope to get from this thread.

Ignorance I admit to and I hope if there's anything you can say to make that less it would be great.

The main thing that would, I believe, assure people in my situation that it will be better this time is that commitment to more post-release people and and resources- well it boils down to money.

Another purpose was calling your attention (again I'm sure my situation is far from unique) so thank you for stepping by and acknowledging us and possibly being nudged just a bit further.

Thank you very much for your response. It does give a definite line to what SMS is willing to commit to at this time.

On another note entirely I completely fail to get this idea of my somehow holding "a whole thread of people" hostage to my quest, and all these calls to close the thread. Mine is the opening message, and nobody's holding a gun at anyone's head to read it or post in it. Why is it so important to them that it's closed? Some kind of official stamp saying I'm a bad guy and people like me are wrong to worry or ask questions? Maybe somebody will have something actually new or enlightening to say. If not it will die a natural death if people stop reading it and posting responses with no other purpose than to condemn my questions.

Though please understand that doesn't at all include everybody. Many posts have been very helpful to me.

Anyhow, thank you, bradleyland, for asking.

Sincerely,

Rick

Konan
22-08-2017, 22:22
Most people here know i'm a complete noob when it comes to these things but even i understand that it's impossible to put a time stamp on fixing bugs...
Some are easy to reproduce/fix but some just aren't.
There are so many factors (half of them i don't even understand) that can delay or make it harder to eliminate issues...
What i do know for a fact is that the dev team that are/will be working on them is top notch and will do everything in their powers to fix whatever might pop up...

RU486
22-08-2017, 22:29
To be honest I want to be convinced to buy PCars 2. The very ugly experience I had with PCars stands in the way.

Rick,
the only a suggestion I can offer, is to wait a week or so after the release on 22nd Sept. read what ppl say about the game and make up ur own mind then weather or not ur very ugly experiences from PC1 are again going to manifest in PC2.

RU

Mahjik
22-08-2017, 22:32
More specifics on what's being planned to do a better faster job of fixing bugs.


The main difference is that SMS developed tools to help them debug issues. With PC1, unless there was way to reproduce the issue almost 100% of the time, it was near impossible to SMS to track down and address. They did a lot more in this space with the tools they built around the software to aid in their troubleshooting. It's not something we as consumers can see and use, but they are there for them for troubleshooting.

Konan
22-08-2017, 22:33
Indeed...like i said before: no one is obligated to pre-order...
If you doubt it that much,just take your time and read the feedback on the forum once it releases...

Edit: reply to RU's post...if i knew Mahjik was going to post in between i would have quoted the post...LOL

redrick
22-08-2017, 22:52
Most people here know i'm a complete noob when it comes to these things but even i understand that it's impossible to put a time stamp on fixing bugs...
Some are easy to reproduce/fix but some just aren't.
There are so many factors (half of them i don't even understand) that can delay or make it harder to eliminate issues...
What i do know for a fact is that the dev team that are/will be working on them is top notch and will do everything in their powers to fix whatever might pop up...

Everybody knows that I'm a complete noob to "these things" but both you and I know that when a lot of people see that bit re "top notch" they're going "yeah, well he would of course say that.

I'm not a noob to the games, the final result of which with PCars was definitely not top notch. Maybe they were just unlucky. Maybe the "Project" was too ambitious in the first place. Before I got it I was delightedly looking forward to something almost too good to be true. Only mistake was the word "almost".

I'm not a naysayer. Just pushing for all I can get. Hire more of those top-notch people and blow away the competition both pre- and more importantly post-release. Otherwise you're stuck with a moniker and an open wound that will stay open whether or not this thread does.

Regards,
Rick

hkraft300
22-08-2017, 22:52
More specifics on what's being planned to do a better faster job of fixing bugs.

...


The main difference is that SMS developed tools to help them debug issues. With PC1, unless there was way to reproduce the issue almost 100% of the time, it was near impossible to SMS to track down and address...

Iirc Bell also put in a proper QA team or something along the lines.

Rick may not have followed the news as closely as some of us forum whores.

I also wonder why people on console especially don't go and grab a disc, give a new game a few hours and if they don't like it, return it?

Mahjik
22-08-2017, 23:19
Iirc Bell also put in a proper QA team or something along the lines.


WMD2 doesn't have visibility into that side of things so I didn't mention it.. Ian has mentioned it but I don't want someone to came back to me and say "You said"... ;) At least with the tools, we saw some of the things that SMS was using development to track down issues. ;)

redrick
23-08-2017, 00:36
WMD2 doesn't have visibility into that side of things so I didn't mention it.. Ian has mentioned it but I don't want someone to came back to me and say "You said"... ;) At least with the tools, we saw some of the things that SMS was using development to track down issues. ;)


Iirc Bell also put in a proper QA team or something along the lines.

Rick may not have followed the news as closely as some of us forum whores.

I also wonder why people on console especially don't go and grab a disc, give a new game a few hours and if they don't like it, return it?

Thank you and thank you, though I guess I pushed the multi-quote buttons in the wrong order. I don't fully understand things like development tools or "QA team" but I'm getting what sounds like a definite ring from lower down the chain of improvements that means a lot more than some executive's "It was bad. I take responsibility. It will be better," which is ultimately meaningless.

Re grabbing disk I try to go digital & also it'll take a lot more than a few hours, or days, & also response to bugs resources need to be in place before release. Also promised myself that unless convinced enough to go Digital Deluxe I wouldn't mess with it all. Thread is not about me but I am disabled and changing disks is a literal pain. Also why I use a controller. Legs too withered to push pedals and osteonecrotic shoulders that would scream out after 5 minutes at wheel. I can't drive a real car either. Altogether a ridiculous person to have become addicted to racing games so blame GT3 & 4 for this thread. & while we're on (and hopefully off) me I gotta say I'm a bit annoyed by those who seem to at least a dozen times accused my of being unaware that games have bugs. I said that in my second post in this thread and am thus the first person in it to have pointed it out.

Again thanks to all who have and will continue to expand on what's being planned re response to the evil little buggers,

Regards,

Rick

honespc
23-08-2017, 07:51
The most important thing this time around redrick, besides the unbeatable amount of stuff available only in the vanilla specially regarding tracks, is the handling change. That is what is to set this game apart from others in terms of fun.

Then you have also the amazing weather system I personally can't wait to dive into.

Of course there'll be one bug here and another one there, but you are not supposed to find anything as huge, beautiful and particularly engaging/fun as project cars 2 by September 22 (and let's be honest, later probably won't be anything around to compete too). Gran Turismo is the same outdated crap since Gran Turismo 4 (and before), but now featuring less content than ever before hahah; Forza can be fun for a couple of rides, but meh; Assetto Corsa..., LeLz road car simulation; iRacing = Ice Racing; rFactor2 feels outdated too....

Project Cars 2 is the only way.

redrick
23-08-2017, 12:10
I hope your hopes right about Project Cars 2. But I enjoy Assetto Corsa very much. A lot smaller than PCars but similar in many ways and without so many bugs. What I've heard of GT Sport content (tracks especially) is dismaying but having played every GT since 3 and been enthralled I'm inclined a lot more to give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm listening to and considering everything I hear here but I've played a lot of games since my very first Nintedo with Mario Bros., some space game, Gradius I think it was called, and Castlevania 1. And my experience is

There are games with bugs.

There are buggy games.

Then, there is Project Cars.

honespc
23-08-2017, 13:03
I won't deny project cars 1 was a terrible bug ridden game bro. But think on the package we got as a whole in that game; lotta tracks with honorable mention to the local British ones; incredible Formula B handling/physics; amazing road car fun; the setups; everything tweakable; the weather, etc

When you put all of this together and then think, well, actually remember that Project Cars 1 was in fact and Indy game, then It actually became some sort of achievement the production of this game imho. And the fact many of us continue to enjoy the ride regardless the car class we find most enjoyable and the problems here and there, then at least from my perspective haven't regretted for a second having purchased pc1 by 2015.

Was it bug ridden again?. Of course. But It featured phenomenal handling and physics, with really cool weather system all of that combined with so many tracks to enjoy riding on.

Project cars 1 can be enjoyed as long as you desire it. For being an Indy game it's been simply outstanding as a package.

Opinion post, of course.

Konan
23-08-2017, 13:22
There are games with bugs.

There are buggy games.

Then, there is Project Cars.

Now you're just generalising...
Not everyone had every issue you had,in fact many people had no issues at all (including me)
Single players and career players had less problems in general...
Bug ridden game maybe for you and some others but that doesn't mean it comes last on everyone's list...
You were one of the unlucky ones (which doesn't make it right i agree) but to say AC is very similar to PCARS?
That's just throwing rotten eggs...IMHO

RacingAtHome
23-08-2017, 17:58
Now you're just generalising...
Not everyone had every issue you had,in fact many people had no issues at all (including me)
Single players and career players had less problems in general...
Bug ridden game maybe for you and some others but that doesn't mean it comes last on everyone's list...
You were one of the unlucky ones (which doesn't make it right i agree) but to say AC is very similar to PCARS?
That's just throwing rotten eggs...IMHO

Agreed. The only issue that I had was the cars piling on top of each other (which was removed) and my pit guy not letting me on circuit which isn't even that big a deal anyway.

redrick
23-08-2017, 22:06
Now you're just generalising...
Not everyone had every issue you had,in fact many people had no issues at all (including me)
Single players and career players had less problems in general...
Bug ridden game maybe for you and some others but that doesn't mean it comes last on everyone's list...
You were one of the unlucky ones (which doesn't make it right i agree) but to say AC is very similar to PCARS?
That's just throwing rotten eggs...IMHO
Now now now, you're cheating a bit and carefully editing quotes. The words immediately before the three lines of mine you quote were "In my experience" . Obviously those who concentrate their time on different parts of the game are going to be frustrated by different and possibly more or less bugs. For example, I only barely fooled around with the whole career mode thing a bit and that in the first few months of release. RPGs not my thing anymore after around a dozen Final Fantasies. And many who play with a wheel, aren't the least bit interested in tuning (run default or use somebody else's from the vault), are very talented drivers and do mostly online and not racing weekends, are playing a different game from the one I am altogether.

That said, the games reputation, the whole "PBugs" business, the facts that large updates every month for 12 months weren't able to do the job and the company just gave up at that point (past which for the 8th time I had moderators patiently explaining the same bug reporting procedure and promising that sooner or later some with a user name in bright metallic blue would respond), and that here I'm told that higher-ups have acknowledged making a a hash of it last time and need to do better, suggest that I'm not all that unique.

I'm happy for those who had few problems and none that really put them off, but I and others did in spades. Some of those far more expert than I that I rely on for example and advice won't touch PCars period because of past experience with it.

That you so dislike Assetto Corsa and can't understand my calling it somewhat similar though much "smaller" suggest we must be concentrating on different parts of that game. Maybe I'm so different that the bugs that bug me aren't as multiply reported and thus put on the back burner. I can understand that policy but I can also understand where it leaves me. I've got to add to the bug-rporting procedure contacting everyone I know with similar interests & tell them that one of us reporting is not enough and we need to stuff ballot boxes and campaign for a spot higher up the line. Also, only 9 months of fixes this time rather than 12, though waiting even 9 is outrageous and unacceptable. If there are parts of the game that aren't going to be supported they ought to be left out altogether.

And there remains that reputation in the gaming world that those three lines you quote are a bit more universal than my unedited post implied.

So get mad at people like me. Hire more of those "top notch" fixers. Fulfill the promise that I've said before promises far more of what I want than any other game on the market. Small doubt I'll download it to my PS4 in hope but there's no way I'm going to put up with months of grief like last time. If I'm not having fun after two or three weeks I'll just wipe it from my disk and join the very loud naysayers who are right now telling me to stop even thinking about PCars and be content with AC, GTS, or stump up for a first class gaming PC and investigate all that's available there.

Rick

Konan
23-08-2017, 23:16
Just to be clear: i'm not getting mad at all...
You are entitled to your opinion (caused by you having issues with the game) as much as i am to mine (caused by having no issues at all)
Point is that in your way you are right just the same as i am in my experience...
No one is denying there are unsolved bugs in Pcars1 least of all me.
The issue here is that some of them couldn't be resolved and that is not due to lack of trying...
I know for a fact that SMS did everything in their powers to try and fix what needed fixing and i remember very well how frustrating some of the devs were when/if they couldn't.
All that has nothing to do with unwillingness,lack of funds or incapablity but with factors outside their reach...

redrick
24-08-2017, 00:52
Just to be clear: i'm not getting mad at all...
You are entitled to your opinion (caused by you having issues with the game) as much as i am to mine (caused by having no issues at all)
Point is that in your way you are right just the same as i am in my experience...
No one is denying there are unsolved bugs in Pcars1 least of all me.
The issue here is that some of them couldn't be resolved and that is not due to lack of trying...
I know for a fact that SMS did everything in their powers to try and fix what needed fixing and i remember very well how frustrating some of the devs were when/if they couldn't.
All that has nothing to do with unwillingness,lack of funds or incapablity but with factors outside their reach...

Just to be clear I want everyone connected with PCars to be mad. And not SlightlyMad:) . Mad enough to want to be in a position to ram that "PBugs" label down our throats.

More important, I think you've been able to express a core element in our concerns there. "The issue here is that some of them couldn't be resolved and that is not due to lack of trying..." The issue from my side is whether steps have been taken in designing the new game to keep that from happening again.

And "I know for a fact that SMS did everything in their powers to try and fix what needed fixing and i remember very well how frustrating some of the devs were when/if they couldn't.
All that has nothing to do with unwillingness,lack of funds or incapablity but with factors outside their reach.."

Of course we have to take what your saying there on faith, but that's about the old game and "it happened long ago in another country and besides the wench is dead." Here the issue is current possible factors that may fall outside of current reach. Sorry if that comes out a bit awkward but I can't recall such language before regarding broken stuff that won't be fixed. Thank goodness you're not my landlord!

Also I'm sure you'll be understanding that in our current wonderful neo-liberal world it's hard for anyone to believe that everything doesn't ultimately come down to money.

Konan
24-08-2017, 07:37
Man would i hate to be your landlord...:p
Anyway,i know how Pcars was and i know how Pcars2 will be...they're worlds apart.
But as been said before: you don't have to take my (or anyone else's) word for it...wait until sept 22nd and make your mind up then...
For me this conversation is over,if anyone wants to chime in feel free to do so...i have nothing more to say that hasn't been said before...

Edit: except this: a post from a WMD1 member at WMD2 about Pcars2...


[quote]When I was at WMD1, at this stage in development, I was very worried about PC1. My development knowledge was nonexistant and I was not very confident the game would release in a good state, but I kept hoping. II will not say I was not interested in PC2 right away, but the driving force behind me signing in for a second round had more to do with learning more about development and with the sheer admiration I have for the blue guys, than with the game itself.

And here we are, one month away from launch. I know when it launches it will have some problems, some inconsistencies, it's just the nature of these super complex games. There's simply no way everything works spot on day 1. But I'm confident it will be in a good state and patches will be there primarly for adding extra polish layers rather than making things work. And I know because at this stage not only I'm not worried like I was with PC1, I just can't believe how good this game is. I literally can't believe it. Everytime I start the game, pick some random car at some random track, and I'm blown away. What's this magic? How can EVERYTHING feel so damn giood? Makes no sense!

I'm racing at white Nords and I'm clenching my teeth and my hands. I'm so afraid to go around corners while day comes and goes. I'm afraid here, sitting on my chair, moving my toy wheel left and right, correcting all the time. Being afraid shouldn't be so fun, but it is in this game. Because even though I am afraid, I can almost hear the car telling me everything's okay, I can do it. It's teaching me how do things right. Next time you'll do better, it says. And even when I fail more often than I nail turns, I'm confident I will eventually do better, because the car is talking to me in a language I understand, because it's telling me how things went wrong and I am learning. And learning is fun.

I never hoped for a game this caliber, this ahead of its time. I reckon things are not easy. We WMD sometimes help, sometimes make things more dificult than needed. So, thanks SMS for keeping us close, thanks for making this dream game reality.[end quote]


...i rest my case...

Leper Messiah
24-08-2017, 13:56
We did well with a year of support and bug fixing with PCars...just look at Mass Effect Andromeda, support for that has been pulled already.

Schadows
24-08-2017, 15:28
We did well with a year of support and bug fixing with PCars...just look at Mass Effect Andromeda, support for that has been pulled already.True, but i'm sure those who bought it early one didn't expect the game to be release with that much things to be fixed.
Anyway, without any mean to test it ourselves, the best things to do for people still hesitating to buy it is to wait for reviews to come out.

redrick
25-08-2017, 09:04
Man would i hate to be your landlord...:p
Anyway,i know how Pcars was and i know how Pcars2 will be...they're worlds apart.
But as been said before: you don't have to take my (or anyone else's) word for it...wait until sept 22nd and make your mind up then...
For me this conversation is over,if anyone wants to chime in feel free to do so...i have nothing more to say that hasn't been said before...

Edit: except this: a post from a WMD1 member at WMD2 about Pcars2...

When I was at WMD1, at this stage in development, I was very worried about PC1. My development knowledge was nonexistant and I was not very confident the game would release in a good state, but I kept hoping. II will not say I was not interested in PC2 right away, but the driving force behind me signing in for a second round had more to do with learning more about development and with the sheer admiration I have for the blue guys, than with the game itself.

And here we are, one month away from launch. I know when it launches it will have some problems, some inconsistencies, it's just the nature of these super complex games. There's simply no way everything works spot on day 1. But I'm confident it will be in a good state and patches will be there primarly for adding extra polish layers rather than making things work. And I know because at this stage not only I'm not worried like I was with PC1, I just can't believe how good this game is. I literally can't believe it. Everytime I start the game, pick some random car at some random track, and I'm blown away. What's this magic? How can EVERYTHING feel so damn giood? Makes no sense!

I'm racing at white Nords and I'm clenching my teeth and my hands. I'm so afraid to go around corners while day comes and goes. I'm afraid here, sitting on my chair, moving my toy wheel left and right, correcting all the time. Being afraid shouldn't be so fun, but it is in this game. Because even though I am afraid, I can almost hear the car telling me everything's okay, I can do it. It's teaching me how do things right. Next time you'll do better, it says. And even when I fail more often than I nail turns, I'm confident I will eventually do better, because the car is talking to me in a language I understand, because it's telling me how things went wrong and I am learning. And learning is fun.

I never hoped for a game this caliber, this ahead of its time. I reckon things are not easy. We WMD sometimes help, sometimes make things more dificult than needed. So, thanks SMS for keeping us close, thanks for making this dream game reality."


...i rest my case...

RIP

What. A. Joke.

I'll open with one word.

Camber.

All kudos to the brilliant Testimony of the unnamed WMD1 now WMD2 person. (WMD 2 now I guess so we don't have to worry about it being the same as WMD 1 but it's the same people, or one of.) Here is a somewhat briefer testimony by guybo:

"For a while I really liked pCars- the AI is the best among sims out there. But once I read about the issues with camber (less camber=more grip and 0 camber seems to be the fastest setup in all cars) I lost interest. How can a sim racing platform dev team miss such a fundamental flaw in the game's physics? I tried to over-look it and just play anyway but this has taken all the wind from my sails."

That's at http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?50338-Found-out-about-the-camber-problem-with-pCars-haven-t-played-since

Camber.

The camber scandal put paid to PCars' claims of great physics realism. The physics of a vehicle moving over the planet's surface is ultimately centered on where the vehicle (in this case its tires) contacts the surface they're moving over. Camber is the angle the tires are set to. And these SMD programmers, who we're assured by no less than a gaming forum moderator are absolutely "top notch", can't figure out or spend the time to work out what that is in terms of a number that can represent that angle. If you can't know that you absolutely cannot know any more about the real physics of the car's behavior than you can guess by watching races on TV.

If you check the thread you'll see guybo told (by Mahjik as a matter of fact) that all racing games have flaws (flaws?) who concentrates on the setting-to-0 "cheat" as many regarded it (I suppose rightly but how are you supposed to set it?) and while this basically shows PCars to be just another arcade game but it's great fun and you can stick to the offline stuff if you're concerned about the exploitation. Fun. Yeah, it is fun. Mario Karts is fun. Slot cars were fun. But I and many others would really like something that has some credence to giving an idea of, say, what it's like to pilot a 488 around Imola.

Information is available- the car is faster and the tires are hotter (around 85-90 as opposed to 70-78) with camber set to 0 instead of the default. It's just a matter of patiently observing and notating what is going on, attaching numbers to it, and working out some kind of work-around calculated to return reasonable numbers that can be adjusted.

The usual way tuners set camber is by checking the the temperature of the tires at the inner (closest to the car), middle, and outer (farthest from the car). With the tires flat on the surface the inner part will be warmer than the outer. If you tilt them enough with the bottom towards the car that can reverse itself, as much of the time the outer part of the tire is what is contacting the road with the most pressure. Sorry about filling the post with this elementary stuff but with some of these people I begin to wonder. The reason for this particular paragraph is that possibly the tire-temperature readings are also busted.

I really cannot believe that fixing this small flaw (small in what it is but huge in what it means re SMS, WDS, SlightlyMad, or who- or whatever's pretensions to physical reality) would somehow "break" the game.

How DARE they presume to condescend to Assetto Corsa which may not have thousands of combinations of cars and tracks and livery, but at least has those four all-important bases covered where the rubber meets the road. It seems realistic to me but then I've never driven a 488 around Imola. (The wife won't let me trade in one of our 458s:D.) Incidentally the wonderfully moving Testimony that deserves an award above unfortunately can in no way know what its like to drive a modern racing car around the 'ring. It's been illegal (and deadly) since around the turn of the century.

How DARE they keep trying to make this thread out to be a naysaying argument about the future when I'm just trying make loud and clear the title I gave the thread and it's implied worries based on the past. They say they want user input and I assume that includes user worries. If you have them tell them and ask for definite steps taken not just easy reassurances by people in no position to really know what management intends and whose reassurances have proven empty in the past. "Just wait and see," doesn't exactly sound like a great concern for our concerns either.

BTW on a completely different user input brought up my mentioning liveries, I wonder how many of you remember and miss the features of old GT5 and earlier where they may not have had all the liveries but you could make all kinds of changes and additions to "soup up" your car. I greatly enjoyed the strategy that involved and in real racing that's what all those different liveries mean. A little team gets enough sponsorship to buy a couple 458s off of Ferrari and tries all kinds of little things to make them better than the next guy's. Here we get dozens of liveries but they all just get pasted on exactly the same car.

Rick

redrick
25-08-2017, 09:25
True, but i'm sure those who bought it early one didn't expect the game to be release with that much things to be fixed.
Anyway, without any mean to test it ourselves, the best things to do for people still hesitating to buy it is to wait for reviews to come out.

Your first sentence is the truest thing is this thread. But re reviews, doesn't it seem to you that these are rushed out barely behind youtube "unboxings" and would not have time to encounter the kinds of concerns we're expressing?

Re Leper Messiah's Mass Effect Andromeda, I've not had the pleasure but I rather think it unlikely they made the same claims to authentic physics...

And all those monthly updates that I'm sure we hope won't be as necessary this time. As they approached one had mixed feelings. Of course you vainly hoped your fix would be there but also knew the tunes for a number of cars or a few times all cars would be made invalid, which affected the tuners and the users of tunes who suddenly found themselves slamming into walls they'd not had the acquaintance of previously.

Regards,

Rick

Cheesenium
25-08-2017, 09:55
RIP

What. A. Joke.

I'll open with one word.

Camber.

All kudos to the brilliant Testimony of the unnamed WMD1 now WMD2 person. (WMD 2 now I guess so we don't have to worry about it being the same as WMD 1 but it's the same people, or one of.) Here is a somewhat briefer testimony by guybo:

"For a while I really liked pCars- the AI is the best among sims out there. But once I read about the issues with camber (less camber=more grip and 0 camber seems to be the fastest setup in all cars) I lost interest. How can a sim racing platform dev team miss such a fundamental flaw in the game's physics? I tried to over-look it and just play anyway but this has taken all the wind from my sails."

That's at http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?50338-Found-out-about-the-camber-problem-with-pCars-haven-t-played-since

Camber.

The camber scandal put paid to PCars' claims of great physics realism. The physics of a vehicle moving over the planet's surface is ultimately centered on where the vehicle (in this case its tires) contacts the surface they're moving over. Camber is the angle the tires are set to. And these SMD programmers, who we're assured by no less than a gaming forum moderator are absolutely "top notch", can't figure out or spend the time to work out what that is in terms of a number that can represent that angle. If you can't know that you absolutely cannot know any more about the real physics of the car's behavior than you can guess by watching races on TV.

If you check the thread you'll see guybo told (by Mahjik as a matter of fact) that all racing games have flaws (flaws?) who concentrates on the setting-to-0 "cheat" as many regarded it (I suppose rightly but how are you supposed to set it?) and while this basically shows PCars to be just another arcade game but it's great fun and you can stick to the offline stuff if you're concerned about the exploitation. Fun. Yeah, it is fun. Mario Karts is fun. Slot cars were fun. But I and many others would really like something that has some credence to giving an idea of, say, what it's like to pilot a 488 around Imola.

Information is available- the car is faster and the tires are hotter (around 85-90 as opposed to 70-78) with camber set to 0 instead of the default. It's just a matter of patiently observing and notating what is going on, attaching numbers to it, and working out some kind of work-around calculated to return reasonable numbers that can be adjusted.

The usual way tuners set camber is by checking the the temperature of the tires at the inner (closest to the car), middle, and outer (farthest from the car). With the tires flat on the surface the inner part will be warmer than the outer. If you tilt them enough with the bottom towards the car that can reverse itself, as much of the time the outer part of the tire is what is contacting the road with the most pressure. Sorry about filling the post with this elementary stuff but with some of these people I begin to wonder. The reason for this particular paragraph is that possibly the tire-temperature readings are also busted.

I really cannot believe that fixing this small flaw (small in what it is but huge in what it means re SMS, WDS, SlightlyMad, or who- or whatever's pretensions to physical reality) would somehow "break" the game.

How DARE they presume to condescend to Assetto Corsa which may not have thousands of combinations of cars and tracks and livery, but at least has those four all-important bases covered where the rubber meets the road. It seems realistic to me but then I've never driven a 488 around Imola. (The wife won't let me trade in one of our 458s:D.) Incidentally the wonderfully moving Testimony that deserves an award above unfortunately can in no way know what its like to drive a modern racing car around the 'ring. It's been illegal (and deadly) since around the turn of the century.

How DARE they keep trying to make this thread out to be a naysaying argument about the future when I'm just trying make loud and clear the title I gave the thread and it's implied worries based on the past. They say they want user input and I assume that includes user worries. If you have them tell them and ask for definite steps taken not just easy reassurances by people in no position to really know what management intends and whose reassurances have proven empty in the past. "Just wait and see," doesn't exactly sound like a great concern for our concerns either.

BTW on a completely different user input brought up my mentioning liveries, I wonder how many of you remember and miss the features of old GT5 and earlier where they may not have had all the liveries but you could make all kinds of changes and additions to "soup up" your car. I greatly enjoyed the strategy that involved and in real racing that's what all those different liveries mean. A little team gets enough sponsorship to buy a couple 458s off of Ferrari and tries all kinds of little things to make them better than the next guy's. Here we get dozens of liveries but they all just get pasted on exactly the same car.

Rick


If you are so fixated that Assetto Corsa is superior, then, there is nothing else to say. And if you are expecting pcars to drive like AC, I do not know why are you even here.

Even if Kunos got the bare basics of driving right, they got everything wrong all the way from the atrocious UI, a game full of mismatched content that has a lot of cars with nothing to race with other than as solo classes, an AI that took them years to fix, utterly rubbish career, non-existent game design in game development that needs to be fixed with mods endlessly, slow track production with some of the worst and ugliest fictional tracks in a game, many questionable data in their cars and lastly, several overdramatic, jealous and arrogant key staff who is always trying to start a fanboy wars. At the end, AC felt more like a tech demo that is simply thrown together without being a complete, well developed package. AC is a terrible video game as a whole, regardless it's physics is great or not.

If driving physics is the only factor for a racing game to be good, then, rfactor or LFS would be the best selling racing game.

EDIT: No physics model is perfect. Not SMS's SETA, AC's model or any game's model. There are numerous times that Kunos staff banning forumers for reporting bugs in the physics. Then, quietly patch in the suggested changes months down the line.

Only a fool would believe that a physics model is perfect.

If you are not happy with SMS in Pcars 1, you are welcome not to preorder it because the trust is not there. Rather than creating all these pretentious and snobbish comments on how much they "owe" you.

redrick
25-08-2017, 12:01
Sorry, where did I say they "owe" me anything?

AC is superior to PCars IMHO. Whether it's superior to PCars 2 is yet to be seen. Sorry if I like it. Hardly fixated & PCars hardly (yet anyway) justified in taking such a superior attitude. If you've read my posts you know I am not interested all parts of any game. Haven't come across problem of no matching cars myself. Certainly hope something bigger and better comes along.

Sorry again, where did I say any physics model was or is likely to ever be perfect. (Actually in terms of serious physics, that is impossible.) It should however come within the ballpark of the claims it makes. PCars doesn't.

You obvious have misread or not very carefully read my post. Or even checked your own- why would I preorder Pcars 1? I obviously already have it. Been a bleeding wound for years.

In the last sentence of your first paragraph you say "And if you are expecting pcars to drive like AC, I do not know why are you even here." If I correctly decipher the ungrammatical last sentence of your next paragraph, you acknowledge AC's physics may be "great". (?)

I don't have the time to go over every post I see with a fine tooth comb either, but I certainly do the ones I intend to disagree with in print. And I certainly would be even more careful should I ever unleash the kind of personal attack that appears to be your style.

Everyone (up until now) seems to be trying to keep this thread as civilized as possible considering some of the very directly opposed opinions. A bit of sarcasm here or there but we respect other's opinions and don't call each other fools. I have no idea what your post intends to accomplish.

R

Roger Prynne
25-08-2017, 12:31
@redrick..... you're a bit late to the party, all your winging has been heard many many times before and it's old news and quite frankly getting very boring (it is what it is)
If you don't like the pCARS games and prefer AC then I suggest that you go to their forum and do your winging there and leave us to enjoy our crap game.

Schadows
25-08-2017, 12:58
... But re reviews, doesn't it seem to you that these are rushed out barely behind youtube "unboxings" and would not have time to encounter the kinds of concerns we're expressing?When I say "reviews" I don't necessarily means famous gaming websites reviews, or youtubers' day-1 reviews. I just meant to take time and wait for more feedback from a trusting community (which may differ depending on what you're expecting from that game).
I was fortunate to not encounter bugs during my time with pcars1, but I'm not blind and quickly, lots of communities/forum were talking about what was wrong (and as usual for every games just a few people talk about what was right) could quickly be found.
Since pcars2 promise to be a major step-up over pcars1 that I already like very much, I pre-ordered the game. But for all those who were disappointed, its not like not playing the game for the 1st month, waiting for a consensus, will be disastrous.

redrick
25-08-2017, 13:03
Seems Cheesenlum brought a friend. Thank you for info many have agreed with me in the past. Sorry you're bored. No requirement for you to read this thread if you don't want to, except possibly to moderate your friend's tone.

honespc
25-08-2017, 13:12
Come on redrick. Aren't you here at the very least because pc2 got your attention, and because you can feel without even trying it yet that it's going to be so fun to play?. Not to mention the tremendous vanilla content already?, that's at least what I feel about pc2

amazed
25-08-2017, 13:13
Toys and pram spring to mind.....

redrick
25-08-2017, 13:21
When I say "reviews" I don't necessarily means famous gaming websites reviews, or youtubers' day-1 reviews. I just meant to take time and wait for more feedback from a trusting community (which may differ depending on what you're expecting from that game).
I was fortunate to not encounter bugs during my time with pcars1, but I'm not blind and quickly, lots of communities/forum were talking about what was wrong (and as usual for every games just a few people talk about what was right) could quickly be found.
Since pcars2 promise to be a major step-up over pcars1 that I already like very much, I pre-ordered the game. But for all those who were disappointed, its not like not playing the game for the 1st month, waiting for a consensus, will be disastrous.

Now I see what you mean- very good advice. For myself I'm probably too impatient to take it. I thought no doubt I'd be getting it in the end to see for myself anyway so might as well take advantage of pre-order goodies. But I still have time to decide. Thank you very much for what will make me think twice and also sensibility amongst sudden gust of bad vibes.

Regards.

Rick

Konan
25-08-2017, 13:23
Now I see what you mean- very good advice. For myself I'm probably too impatient to take it. I thought no doubt I'd be getting it in the end to see for myself anyway so might as well take advantage of pre-order goodies. But I still have time to decide. Thank you very much for what will make me think twice and also sensibility amongst sudden gust of bad vibes.

Regards.

Rick

That advice has only been given about three times in this thread before...

redrick
25-08-2017, 13:42
Come on redrick. Aren't you here at the very least because pc2 got your attention, and because you can feel without even trying it yet that it's going to be so fun to play?. Not to mention the tremendous vanilla content already?, that's at least what I feel about pc2

You've hit the nail very close to the head. Just replace "fun to play" with "fun to try to make work for me" and "vanilla content" with "best track list among currently releasing games by far."

Also as I've said before everything from name of thread on is in hopes of goading these SMS people or whoever into doing whatever it takes to prove my (or rather "many of our" according to Roger) doubts unfounded. Thanks for your very perceptive interest. At least a few people been giving my posts a glance.

Sincere best wishes for fulfillment of your expectations,

Regards,

Rick

honespc
25-08-2017, 13:49
Would you rather have had me to say the line "It's going to be good/best simulation", instead of "it's going to be fun to play"?

Do you really think Assetto Corsa is a good simulator in what It comes to Road Cars (I don't care about GT3 cars)?, because I think It is not, If I am to be honest with you.

redrick
25-08-2017, 13:51
That advice has only been given about three times in this thread before...

But never so nicely. One naturally tends to respond better to what at least appears to be a hope for one's well-being than to what is obviously a hope to make someone who's found inconvenient to disappear.

Konan
25-08-2017, 13:54
Not nicely enough then?



Indeed...like i said before: no one is obligated to pre-order...
If you doubt it that much,just take your time and read the feedback on the forum once it releases...

Konan
25-08-2017, 13:56
..........



Rick,
the only a suggestion I can offer, is to wait a week or so after the release on 22nd Sept. read what ppl say about the game and make up ur own mind then weather or not ur very ugly experiences from PC1 are again going to manifest in PC2.

RU

redrick
25-08-2017, 14:05
Would you rather have had me to say the line "It's going to be good/best simulation", instead of "it's going to be fun to play"?

Do you really think Assetto Corsa is a good simulator in what It comes to Road Cars (I don't care about GT3 cars)?, because I think It is not, If I am to be honest with you.

First question answer no, because "fun" is key word. Second answer a joke on us both as GT3 a prime interest of mine. I've been spending more than the last week back and forth with both games on the practice track trying to work out the best tuning strategies for mostly the BMW Z4. Also from time to time running the admittedly arcade-like F1 to familiarize myself with the nuances of Spa for the upcoming first-after-the-summer break real F1 Belgian Grand Prix, which where I live by cable and computer I can see all three practices + qually & race.

Regards,
Rick

honespc
25-08-2017, 14:29
I see you are an open wheeler too. Then would allow me to have you try the following thing in Project Cars, and see if I can change your mind about pc1 at least a very little, on the physics department talking of course.

Try the following. Ride a formula B, with the setup you want (try crazy setups too heheh), but then give it a try running the following basic configuration. Leave tyre pressures default; soft tyres; brake bias sightly to the front; brake duct to 35%; of course camber to zero front and rear train both hahaha (project cars 1...); bring ride height near to the bottom, with the rear sightly higher; front springs to 200-215nm, rear to 110 or 100 you choose; front roll bar, slider to the middle or so, and rear very doft, almost to the left; dampers: all aiming to softer always on the rear, even the last ones.

And now the important part. The the acceleration diff to just about 40%, and the decc to 57-58%. Downforce either 6'5 front- 7.0 rear or 7'5 front - 8'0 rear.

Try many tracks, all of them if you can but the point to point ones of course.

All of this assuming you play with a wheel of course, but actually, It comes to be that formula B drives well on a controller too when combined with cockpit view

Come back and tell me that didn't at least brought a smile to your face, and that you didn't have fun with that, regardless the level of simulation.

redrick
25-08-2017, 14:29
...For me this conversation is over,if anyone wants to chime in feel free to do so...i have nothing more to say that hasn't been said before...
:confused::confused::confused:

redrick
25-08-2017, 14:34
I see you are an open wheeler too. Then would allow me to have you try the following thing in Project Cars, and see if I can change your mind about pc1 at least a very little, on the physics department talking of course.

Try the following. Ride a formula B, with the setup you want (try crazy setups too heheh), but then give it a try running the following basic configuration. Leave tyre pressures default; soft tyres; brake bias sightly to the front; brake duct to 35%; of course camber to zero front and rear train both hahaha (project cars 1...); bring ride height near to the bottom, with the rear sightly higher; front springs to 200-215nm, rear to 110 or 100 you choose; front roll bar, slider to the middle or so, and rear very doft, almost to the left; dampers: all aiming to softer always on the rear, even the last ones.

And now the important part. The the acceleration diff to just about 40%, and the decc to 57-58%. Downforce either 6'5 front- 7.0 rear or 7'5 front - 8'0 rear.

Try many tracks, all of them if you can but the point to point ones of course.

All of this assuming you play with a wheel of course, but actually, It comes to be that formula B drives well on a controller too when combined with cockpit view

Come back and tell me that didn't at least brought a smile to your face, and that you didn't have fun with that, regardless the level of simulation.

Promise to do that when I get a chance but must leave now. I keep strange hours. I'm more into watching F1 than driving. Not sure anyone can really simulate and even if I were a pro driver I'd be more into sports or touring cars For what it's worth in brief even PCars' open wheelers are certainly more real than F1's but that's not saying much. 'Night...

Mahjik
25-08-2017, 14:46
Promise to do that when I get a chance but must leave now. I keep strange hours. For what it's worth in brief even PCars' open wheelers are certainly more real than F1's but that's not saying much. 'Night...

That is true, but that's not to say that the F1 series isn't enjoyable. I think people (not you specifically) focus on too many small things rather than the products as a whole. I had a decent time with one of the first F1 series games. I did dislike their random tire punctures but I ignored the fake AI and all the other issues and enjoyed it for what it was as it had some really cool features.

I see Project Cars similarly.. Sure there are some holes given the breath SMS was attempting to achieve... All sims have holes if you look hard enough.. The bigger question is do the holes detract so much from the total package? IMO, no for PC1 (or any of the others out there today). It's just more of a "pick your poison" based on what fits best for each user.

honespc
25-08-2017, 19:20
Here I come from yet another double stint. One at assetto and the second at pc. RUF Yellowbird. Men's car only, in other words a car suited for me.

Assetto Corsa. I ride the purity tyres aka road '90s. The ones this car had back then. The ride begins on optimal cold pressure, cold temps. You feel like racing on ice, and the legendary problem known to assetto, the sense of speed, does kick ion again reminding you to be on the look out for every single time you turn your wheel, making things even harder. You have to take lines perfect fashion, otherwise the totally all over the top nerdgasmically exaggerated mid-entry-exit understeer will also kick in and put you on the grass, or against the wall ok.

You say, ok. Let us warm up the tyres. Second lap tyres perfectly warmed. Now you can steer a little further the car in an attempt to perform the minimum drift you're allowed to do, first because the physics work this way here in this car, and second because the speed sense problem again doesn't make things easier. Roflcopter mid/exit corner understeer again kicks in. Let us go back to cruise speed again, just in case we dare taking that corner at 100km.., oohh, 100km!!. "That's so unrealistic man!. You turn your wheel too much and go too fast through corners!! that's why you have such understeer!!". LeLz...

Another lap later, you still are driving this baby while still totally scared and in the know that you can't push it, because that is realistic according to Assetto Corsa. Slow and not road car style (sideways) is realistic according to the game. You manage to slide through a couple of corners while of course doing it totally scared and without confidence. Success. Next attempt. On the grass. Thanks realistic understeer and tyre grip. You are so realistic indeed. Oh I turned the wheel too much right or went too fast on dat corner, right...

In short. Experience with assetto corsa in this car. Sense of confidence = none. You drive scared all the time, and thus very slow, while of course again that totally wrong sense of speed makes things even more boring. You can't push. You drive slow and scared all the time. Confidence with the car = zero.

Jump in Project Cars, still scared of assettos "realism" (drive slow and scared all the time without confidence. That's assetto). Select Nords, with random weather. The moment I leave the pits on street-medium tyres (high pressure to preserve grip after drifting like mad after just than one lap), I can immidietely begin to slide the car while being easy on the throttle, and the fun begins even on blue tyres. I'm careful on the brakes while combining them with throttle as I slide through corners. High acceleration diff setting too for proper power-sliding without losing control. I can turn my wheel properly now, for then power-slide through. The car responds to my actions. 1080 steering rotation and I still go fast like a champ. I feel so good. It's so great!

One after another the corners come and go. It begins to rain with little fog. Sun begins to fall. Tyres still work as expected as the game still allows me to continue to drift (always easy on the throttle, always in this car) through the circuit. Second lap. Night falls and still rains. I still feels the same confidence with the car I had even under this heavy rain. The high pressure on road tyres allow me to continue even pushing tyres hard as I slide around. Bad weather continues to strike as I still go through the track racing; in other words, fast and with confidence on my car, even under bad weather conditions.

The two laps race ends. The ending feeling of accomplishment and having had so much fun, as well as pretty sure having gone through something quite realistic is there. None can steal my thunder now. I feel like I have been racing, not cruising like a grandpa, too scared to use even the throttle through the Nords on my Yellowbird.

In short:

a) Assetto Corsa experience on the Yellowbird: Sunny day 100% grip. I go slow. I can't push. Why does it look like I'm going so slow. I fear this car. I go on through the track. I push once. I success opn the drift. I push again while being still soo scared of my car. I success!. I push again. I understeer into a wall. Return to pits. Repeat. I feel going so slow in this gameFeels as if I'm not racing at all. Feels as if I am not in control of my own car. That's the final taste of things I get from this "sim" on this car.

b) PC experience on the Yellowbird: The car handles as expected even on blue tyres as long as I'm good on throttle/braking both. IO can go fast. I feel confidence on my car. I feel the speed. I race under amazing weather conditions as I continue to push the car sideways, and burn my street-medium tyres to the friggin'ground, but they still respond as I have a brain when they begin to lose grip in some corners, because this car is a beast. The race ends. I have had a so great time no other racing/simulation game will offer me

Those the differences between PC and Assetto.

Is PC less realistic just because It allows me to drive such a difficult car with confidence, and better, enjoying the drive?

redrick
25-08-2017, 22:17
That is true, but that's not to say that the F1 series isn't enjoyable. I think people (not you specifically) focus on too many small things rather than the products as a whole. I had a decent time with one of the first F1 series games. I did dislike their random tire punctures but I ignored the fake AI and all the other issues and enjoyed it for what it was as it had some really cool features.

I see Project Cars similarly.. Sure there are some holes given the breath SMS was attempting to achieve... All sims have holes if you look hard enough.. The bigger question is do the holes detract so much from the total package? IMO, no for PC1 (or any of the others out there today). It's just more of a "pick your poison" based on what fits best for each user.

Absolutly right re F1. For just a couple things, but they're valuable. They do very good job of simulating and making tracks clear and viewing races on TV is so much more enjoyable if you've done the track a number of times yourself. I find myself taking the same racing line the real drivers are using and can even count the same number of shifts.

Also very good game for teaching yourself the best possible way to brake. with ABS and TC off is (as it should be) very hard to get it just right in when those open wheel tires lock and show ugly flat-spots right under your nose you just grit your teeth and can hit that backup a ways gizmo (invaluable) and try again and again and again.

Re SMS I'm sorry but that whole terrible experience for me is not something I will forget easily for a long time. But what they promise is tempting enough for me to give them a second chance. Every individual is so different in everything from what parts of a game are important to them to how impatient, how willing to gamble, etc. Advice to wait a good month and carefully keep track of this forum and complaints that may be posted about what's important to you is probably the best for most. What I individually decide to do isn't really the point. I can only tell people that this one person's previous experience with SMS was a nightmare. What I need from them to reverse my opinion is their tracks, their cars, and a way above all a tuning system works and is reliable. If they can just manage that. I cannot imagine how the camber- I call it camber scandal beyond even camber problem- should not have been at the top of their list from the beginning of development. But some people never even look at tuning anything except their wheel, or even use other people's posted tunes, just always drive default. Their experience will have been much different from mine.

To other people in this thread- I have a lot of real world chores to do (PITA by now we should all live in VR and have abandoned this unreliable organic crap we're encased in ) but I will read and find the time to enjoy those fun adventures homespc has taken the time to set up for me.

Regards,
Rick

redrick
25-08-2017, 22:25
Will get around to both your posts and read and execute carefully, just may take some time. Our tastes in little matters, a sort of tier down from what I was just saying to Mahjik, like which car classes so different it will be good for me to increase my horizons. You like road cars. I like GT3 etc. I never liked rear engine cars or yellow bird but I will see if you can expand my world in that way.

Thanks for the trouble other people should do your scenarios as well- something good and positive to fill The Wait.

Just if you like NASCAR, Dirt, or ovals please don't tell be until I've done these. I'd me muttering to myself all through them:)

Regards,
Rick

poirqc
25-08-2017, 23:50
...Yellow Bird is awesome!...

The worst part about your story is that it won't come back to pCars 2. I'll dearly miss her too! It's an awesome car.

Cheesenium
26-08-2017, 06:29
Sorry, where did I say they "owe" me anything?

AC is superior to PCars IMHO. Whether it's superior to PCars 2 is yet to be seen. Sorry if I like it. Hardly fixated & PCars hardly (yet anyway) justified in taking such a superior attitude. If you've read my posts you know I am not interested all parts of any game. Haven't come across problem of no matching cars myself. Certainly hope something bigger and better comes along.

Sorry again, where did I say any physics model was or is likely to ever be perfect. (Actually in terms of serious physics, that is impossible.) It should however come within the ballpark of the claims it makes. PCars doesn't.

You obvious have misread or not very carefully read my post. Or even checked your own- why would I preorder Pcars 1? I obviously already have it. Been a bleeding wound for years.

In the last sentence of your first paragraph you say "And if you are expecting pcars to drive like AC, I do not know why are you even here." If I correctly decipher the ungrammatical last sentence of your next paragraph, you acknowledge AC's physics may be "great". (?)

I don't have the time to go over every post I see with a fine tooth comb either, but I certainly do the ones I intend to disagree with in print. And I certainly would be even more careful should I ever unleash the kind of personal attack that appears to be your style.

Everyone (up until now) seems to be trying to keep this thread as civilized as possible considering some of the very directly opposed opinions. A bit of sarcasm here or there but we respect other's opinions and don't call each other fools. I have no idea what your post intends to accomplish.

R

Your posts in this thread had shown that how much you think SMS "owes" you. It is the same entittled attitude I saw among the fanboys of any franchise. Yes, even some Pcars fans are bad. The thing is, if you do not like SMS, then why are you here posting and demanding them to assure you that the game is bug free, camber bug is fixed then criticise them heavily for the shortcoming of the first game?

AC is not perfect yet you overlooked all other issues in that game while staying here to nitpick SMS on every thing. SMS is flawed, no doubt about that but you are being like the typical AC fans that nitpicks on other games then ignores what's wrong with AC.

I think there are several aspect of AC's physics is great. The weighty feel of the car is quite well done despite it does feel a bit over exagerated. The electronics are done quite well, where I think they still have the best ABS implementation in a game. However, everything else is mediocre these days in AC's V10 tires. There is no tire slip angle at all in AC's physics where the grip interpretation is either grip or no grip for most cars. This gives a very chaotic and unintuitive driving feel in a lot of cars in AC. The cars also drive in a very sluggish feel, as if the road is made from sludge compared to the previous more playful, elastic behaviour of their tires in V7 or V8. There is also an absurd level of understeer somehow added in one recent patch which feels awful and unintuitive to drive. The steering is also strange, as if there is something that is causing random steering rotations when you are driving on the straights that does not make any sense. How would a 500,000USD race car with far superior tires somehow cant maintain going straight in a long straight without constant steering corrections? It feels like they are intentionally making the cars to be hard because some people thinks "sims" should be absurdly hard to drive. If real cars are that difficult to drive, the death toll would be fair high than it is with cars that can barely stay straight, slips suddenly and responds slowly to steering.

That is definitely not good physics, it is physics made to be hard for the sake of being hard. AC's car's does not feel fun to drive at all these days where it felt like I am constantly fighting the car than pushing it to the limits in similar ways that I can do in pcars, AMS, R3E, F1 2016 and so on. Most race cars supposed to be easier to drive due to it's superior tire compouds that grips to the ground well while better aerodynamics that also improve the car's grip. There are quite a number of professional driver did mention that a modern race cars is easy to drive but very difficult to be fast and consistent with it. Somehow, AC's race cars felt like death traps driving on slippery sludge that is leaked all over the tarmac.

The reason I mentioned about the "And if you are expecting pcars to drive like AC, I do not know why are you even here" is because most of your posts had been implying that AC is perfect and Pcars is a piece of garbage.It is the usual snobbish attitude that you get in some sites that they look down on certain games. If Pcars 1 is a piece of garbage for you, what makes you think Pcars 2 will be any difference for you? No one's forcing you to play Pcars, just play AC if you think AC is that great. I do not go to iRacing or rFactor forum to expect them to design their games more akin to the game I like.

honespc
26-08-2017, 08:00
The worst part about your story is that it won't come back to pCars 2. I'll dearly miss her too! It's an awesome car.It really separated the boys from the men. Hope you drove it too with its factory steering rotation setting of at around 920- 1000 : - D. Religious experience will always be religious.

Let us then hope we get the F40 factory in pc2 in one of the DLCs since we are going to lose this baby. We wheelers really need a car that actually makes you feel manly enough, and the Yellowbird always accomplished such noble task to perfection, to the point it almost brings a tear to my eye *sigh*.

Why is it being removed btw?. We could have had now the perfect face off in pc2. The F40 factory that might be hypothetically coming in one of the DLCs vs the Yellowbird. Damn! That because of Porche?


That is definitely not good physics, it is physics made to be hard for the sake of being hard. Assetto Corsa "simulation experience" in a nutshell.

Man, I really need to improve on my summarizing skills next time

Bealdor
26-08-2017, 09:08
Why is it being removed btw?. We could have had now the perfect face off in pc2. The F40 factory that might be hypothetically coming in one of the DLCs vs the Yellowbird. Damn! That because of Porche?

Porsche at release = no RUF ingame

FR-Alan
26-08-2017, 09:50
@ redrick, i second your feelings and say friendly to You That You wont have any "usable" answers, unbiaised here on This forum. This forum is good but awfull when You try to explain what You don t like in the Game. That is normal cause You have here mods, wmd1,2 members who are involved in the Project and You are on SMS territory (despite SMS and WMD membets don t have any problem to voice their opinion on concurent forum). For your behaviour, it Is not fanboyism, it Is Just Customer experience and i understand You and have never compared PC to others game.

honespc
26-08-2017, 10:16
But you're aware everybody here also plays other racing games, such as Assetto too, right?, then I hope you realize that the negative comments here on assetto have a base. Maybe we turn the wheel too much and take those corners too fast, who knows.

Don't take what you see as fanboyism come on. Admin/moderation you see here now has improved by a mile compared to what you were referring, too. Come on, sure you're interested in pc2 too, just like everyone else here including redrick:)

edit:

Porsche at release = no RUF ingameThat might mean..., RUF dlc at some point?

Come on boys bring back the RT12 and the yellowbird at least :) Those two are very important, as the rt12 is also a highly rewarding car. Porches are going to be way less rewarding to drive than the ruf. I can feel it:grief:

MaximusN
26-08-2017, 10:36
But you're aware everybody here also plays other racing games, such as Assetto too, right?, then I hope you realize that the negative comments here on assetto have a base. Maybe we turn the wheel too much and take those corners too fast, who knows.


Indeed, I not only was a WMD member form the start, but also had AC at the first green lit moment, rFactor 2 from it's early stages, own Automobilista, had two years of iRacing membership in the early days(never again :D) and so on. So I hope I'm entitled to say that every sim has it's perks. But it's PCars I keep coming back to(have by far the most hours in it too). The big thing dragging me to AC is it's modding features. If there wasn't any I think I would have stopped playing it by now. But I must admit their driving model has matured nicely, that also means that it wasn't always that way. So for me personally PCars is the best in it's vanilla form. rFactor 2 should have been second or even on the top of the list but it is still very unpolished but here's still hoping S397 gets it in a more 2017 state. :)

I used to be pretty rFactor minded, had that in beta form too because I was in a modding team, but it(part 2) is a bit hard to love unconditionally in it's raw form it still is. But, granted, it also has weather and a day and night cycle AND multiplayer AI which sets it AND Pcars way ahead of the rest for being a COMPLETE sim. Dry weather day time driving is just too one-trick-pony-like for me.

redrick
26-08-2017, 11:34
I see you are an open wheeler too. Then would allow me to have you try the following thing in Project Cars, and see if I can change your mind about pc1 at least a very little, on the physics department talking of course.

Try the following. Ride a formula B, with the setup you want (try crazy setups too heheh), but then give it a try running the following basic configuration. Leave tyre pressures default; soft tyres; brake bias sightly to the front; brake duct to 35%; of course camber to zero front and rear train both hahaha (project cars 1...); bring ride height near to the bottom, with the rear sightly higher; front springs to 200-215nm, rear to 110 or 100 you choose; front roll bar, slider to the middle or so, and rear very doft, almost to the left; dampers: all aiming to softer always on the rear, even the last ones.

And now the important part. The the acceleration diff to just about 40%, and the decc to 57-58%. Downforce either 6'5 front- 7.0 rear or 7'5 front - 8'0 rear.

Try many tracks, all of them if you can but the point to point ones of course.

All of this assuming you play with a wheel of course, but actually, It comes to be that formula B drives well on a controller too when combined with cockpit view

Come back and tell me that didn't at least brought a smile to your face, and that you didn't have fun with that, regardless the level of simulation.

Hi,

Okay, I tried this first one. For the initial tune I just left it stock except setting the cambers to 0 (as I saw you were going to do that it would hardly be a fair comparison otherwise, if comparison is part of what was supposed to happen). Then I drove it around Imola because that's what I've been driving lately and didn't want to confuse your experiment with blunders caused by being unfamiliar with the track, and Spa, as I've been driving that also lately because of the current Belgian Grand Prix. Also I do use a controller. I may have mentioned I am disabled and unable to use a wheel. I am unable to drive a real car either. So I always set turning ratio to its slowest. I almost always use cockpit view and did for your experiment. All driving aids set to "off".

Turned out not a very great tune but drivable. So then I put your tune on. Other than the points you mention as most important there wasn't much difference except the brake duct.

Well, your tune was definitely better but not mind-alteringly so. Is there something in particular I'm supposed to notice? Sorry if I'm missing it due to having a lot on my mind lately. Please let me know what to look for.

The tires do get quite a bit hotter with camber set to 0, so the person who suggested caution in using 0 for longer races where tire wear is an issue is right.

BTW Another thing I just don't get is why I keep getting jumped all over and identified with Assetto Corsa. I'm really sorry if I enjoy it but I hardly hold it up as a paragon. I did a search of this thread and see this post will be only the fifth one of the at least four or five times as many posts I've made in the thread in which the word "Corsa" turns up. I don't find it particularly harder or easier than PCars. It is true that PCars total botch of camber takes it out of the running for authenticity and there is no reason to suppose that other games aren't at least trying to be as accurate as possible. But I've gone into all that and how it affected me in depth before. I just hope it gets fixed in in PCars 2, in which case Assetto Corsa, due to its comparatively tiny list of cars and tracks, will not be an issue.

Geting late for me, I'll have to try your other experiment tomorrow & please let me know what I missed with this one.

Regards,
Rick

Sankyo
26-08-2017, 12:30
@ redrick, i second your feelings and say friendly to You That You wont have any "usable" answers, unbiaised here on This forum. This forum is good but awfull when You try to explain what You don t like in the Game. That is normal cause You have here mods, wmd1,2 members who are involved in the Project and You are on SMS territory
The problem is that very few people can explain what they don't like about the game in a normal way, but start accusing SMS of all kinds of things, stating that other sims are perfect and if you try and discuss/counter-argue then you're automatically a fanboy or someone with too much investement in the game to 'accept the truth'. Just like you're doing now ;)


(despite SMS and WMD membets don t have any problem to voice their opinion on concurent forum).
Say what? Ever been on AC or iRacing forums and tried to write down (valid) criticism on that game, or compare it to pCARS showing that pCARS does something better? I guess not, you wouldn't have lived to tell :p

MaximusN
26-08-2017, 13:13
Say what? Ever been on AC or iRacing forums and tried to write down (valid) criticism on that game, or compare it to pCARS showing that pCARS does something better? I guess not, you wouldn't have lived to tell :p

I didn't want to say it but I'm going to say it anyway. I'm very glad that when you cancel your subscription you don't have access to the iRacing forums anymore. I have never seen so many product-biased bunch of #$%#s in one place. Very nasty place... And AC and rFActor2 have their 'knights' too.

But to be fair it's part of today's culture. People feel the need to identify with a product as if it's a religion(just look at in principaly meaningless things like phones). It might even be the lack of religion that makes people search for another(I try to avoid that pothole). And it's the same with politics. With social media, internet and fora we've been given the tools to communicate and understand each other and all people do is use it to fight their petty fights from their self-dug trenches. I really hope this turns around or it might end badly..

redrick
26-08-2017, 13:14
@ redrick, i second your feelings and say friendly to You That You wont have any "usable" answers, unbiaised here on This forum. This forum is good but awfull when You try to explain what You don t like in the Game. That is normal cause You have here mods, wmd1,2 members who are involved in the Project and You are on SMS territory (despite SMS and WMD membets don t have any problem to voice their opinion on concurent forum). For your behaviour, it Is not fanboyism, it Is Just Customer experience and i understand You and have never compared PC to others game.

Thank you for your very kind words. I didn't really expect any answers but have in fact gotten a few interesting bits of information. My principle purpose is in the title I gave the thread. What I really want is not usable answers but a usable game. And I find that everyone here (you yourself are an obvious example) is not a SMS or WMD member or SMS/WMD fanboy who carefully places a "like" after every post by anyone identified as such. And many of the SMS and WMD people have at least been gracious and admitting of the failures of the past. Well, the whole thread speaks for itself. I see it as partly a kind of goad.

I haven't received the kind of assurance that would make me very confident about PCars 2. As you predict I get unspecific assurances I'd like to believe in but no definite commitments. Now you mention lack of "usable" answers and it occurs to me I haven't even definitely been told that the truly scandalous camber problem has been or will definitely be fixed. Can't someone with some kind of authority at least be definite about that?

Well, the new game, or version, will be what it will be and the thread is what it is and I believe and hope it's presence here is a positive thing.

Thanks again. Every time I've looked up to refer to your post what I read strikes a further bell of truth.

I have no right to ask but as you seem kind of neutral do you have any suggestions for me? Anything you're particularly enthusiastic about now or looking forward to in the future? Or is right now a good time to just find a few good books to read and await developments?

Regards,

Rick

poirqc
26-08-2017, 13:28
Porsche at release = no RUF ingame

Yeah, it's been said couple times.

Will there be a 1987 930 Porsche, at some point? It's not exactly a yellowbird, but it would probably be better than nothing! :D

FR-Alan
26-08-2017, 14:10
@Remco, you are a great guy and all people in here are great too. You are a mod, it is a fact. You are linked to the project, it is a fact. Your opinion is valid but that s not the one i m looking for and redrick and other peolple i think the same. And believe me, i don t need your intervention to be polite and respectfull to speak to another customer.
@redrick, i dont have any suggestion, sadly cause like a mod could say to you : what you are waiting for is very personal. Anyway, you have a doubt still existing. Personaly when i have a doubt, i wait and see.

honespc
26-08-2017, 16:06
Do you know what I think it could be more fun than even project cars 2, for as long as we forget, or even care about simulation?, the Need for Speed Rivals game on the Drvieclub's engine v1.0 physics, not the dumbed down ones they left driveclub with in one of the latest patches.

Those classic American fields from Nfs, open world running on Driveclubs handling and graphics. I think only that could beat project cars 2 in what It comes to raw fun and joy at playing/racing. My dream come true on arcade racing games.

It's souring to keep thinking about Yamauchi, seriously. Evolution Studios closure has been hardest hit ever imo. I'd wish some of them had joined Sightly Mad.

redrick
26-08-2017, 22:52
The problem is that very few people can explain what they don't like about the game in a normal way, but start accusing SMS of all kinds of things, stating that other sims are perfect and if you try and discuss/counter-argue then you're automatically a fanboy or someone with too much investement in the game to 'accept the truth'. Just like you're doing now ;)




How normal can we be? Is the camber problem fixed or isn't it? How much more normal can we get.
And FR-Alan didn't even mention any other sims much less that they are perfect.

I wish you all would stop bickering about each other's intentions and talk about what specifically has been or will be done to make our experience with PCars 2 less disastrous than the original.

Best advice I've seen so far is to not buy it even after early reviews but wait a month or so and then what? Try to sort out any reports of real meaning from the gushes of fanboys and the crying of idiots who can't figure out which end is up & then call it a bug?

No real telling until you've got the product running on your machine. From the vagueness of info that wmd and sms or whatever have been willing to part with, PCars 2 could well be exactly old PBugs with all bugs still in place and just a little window dressing added here and there. And you accuse us of not being able to express in a normal way?

Rick

Mahjik
26-08-2017, 23:01
redrick,

That's enough. It's fine to express your opinions but let's stop the passive aggressive posting. This is a community where people can have discussions, but drop the rest of it.

Trippul G
27-08-2017, 00:08
I'm seriously having a hard time understanding the point of this thread. Do you want a guided tour of Slightly Mad Studios so that you can see them working on the game in person? Do you want them to come and personally apologize to you for releasing a buggy game? Would you like them to swear on a stack of Bibles that they'll try harder next time?

If I'm not mistaken, Steam offers refunds within a certain time frame if you purchase a game and aren't happy with it. Listen to reviewers or friends whose opinions you trust and whom you've agreed with in the past, and make your decision to either purchase it or not. I don't see why it needs to be any more complicated than that.

redrick
27-08-2017, 07:24
redrick,

That's enough. It's fine to express your opinions but let's stop the passive aggressive posting. This is a community where people can have discussions, but drop the rest of it.

Are you publicaly directing this to me only?

Sorry. I do not quite see how my post was passive aggressive as opposed to a continuation of the discussions we were having, in the form of correcting a clear misrepresentation of my posts and one of those of another, a continuation of a discussion with Shadows, and pointing out the humorous absurdities that the assuring generalizations that are all we've been offered in response to some of our requests could logically be made to mean.

I admit my descriptions of certain groups in my third paragraph were unnecessarily harsh, will be careful about that in the future, and assure everybody here that I was in no way referring to anybody here but to the kind of thing I might come across in a specific future situation and sincerely apologize if anyone was offended.

I do appreciate that for the most part I've been quite courteously treated in what FR-Alan called "SMS territory" and tried to act the same. To rude posts I will not in future respond at all unless I feel it clearly necessary to correct clearly incorrect statements, which I will do as briefly and unprovocatively as possible and leave the rudeness to the moderators to deal with as they see fit. By "clearly necessary" I mean I will only be responding where I feel some of you will not easily recognize the particular falsehoods as such.

Thank you all for hearing me out and for the interest the request that derives from the thread's title has created,

Regards,
Rick

FR-Alan
27-08-2017, 09:46
Dear redrick, You wont have what You are looking for. For what You seen yet, There wont be the dev you are looking for. So let it go. You Will make your choice later. It s Just a game.
Regards

redrick
27-08-2017, 10:07
Here I come from yet another double stint. One at assetto and the second at pc. RUF Yellowbird. Men's car only, in other words a car suited for me.

Assetto Corsa. I ride the purity tyres aka road '90s. The ones this car had back then. The ride begins on optimal cold pressure, cold temps. You feel like racing on ice, and the legendary problem known to assetto, the sense of speed, does kick ion again reminding you to be on the look out for every single time you turn your wheel, making things even harder. You have to take lines perfect fashion, otherwise the totally all over the top nerdgasmically exaggerated mid-entry-exit understeer will also kick in and put you on the grass, or against the wall ok.

You say, ok. Let us warm up the tyres. Second lap tyres perfectly warmed. Now you can steer a little further the car in an attempt to perform the minimum drift you're allowed to do, first because the physics work this way here in this car, and second because the speed sense problem again doesn't make things easier. Roflcopter mid/exit corner understeer again kicks in. Let us go back to cruise speed again, just in case we dare taking that corner at 100km.., oohh, 100km!!. "That's so unrealistic man!. You turn your wheel too much and go too fast through corners!! that's why you have such understeer!!". LeLz...

Another lap later, you still are driving this baby while still totally scared and in the know that you can't push it, because that is realistic according to Assetto Corsa. Slow and not road car style (sideways) is realistic according to the game. You manage to slide through a couple of corners while of course doing it totally scared and without confidence. Success. Next attempt. On the grass. Thanks realistic understeer and tyre grip. You are so realistic indeed. Oh I turned the wheel too much right or went too fast on dat corner, right...

In short. Experience with assetto corsa in this car. Sense of confidence = none. You drive scared all the time, and thus very slow, while of course again that totally wrong sense of speed makes things even more boring. You can't push. You drive slow and scared all the time. Confidence with the car = zero.

Jump in Project Cars, still scared of assettos "realism" (drive slow and scared all the time without confidence. That's assetto). Select Nords, with random weather. The moment I leave the pits on street-medium tyres (high pressure to preserve grip after drifting like mad after just than one lap), I can immidietely begin to slide the car while being easy on the throttle, and the fun begins even on blue tyres. I'm careful on the brakes while combining them with throttle as I slide through corners. High acceleration diff setting too for proper power-sliding without losing control. I can turn my wheel properly now, for then power-slide through. The car responds to my actions. 1080 steering rotation and I still go fast like a champ. I feel so good. It's so great!

One after another the corners come and go. It begins to rain with little fog. Sun begins to fall. Tyres still work as expected as the game still allows me to continue to drift (always easy on the throttle, always in this car) through the circuit. Second lap. Night falls and still rains. I still feels the same confidence with the car I had even under this heavy rain. The high pressure on road tyres allow me to continue even pushing tyres hard as I slide around. Bad weather continues to strike as I still go through the track racing; in other words, fast and with confidence on my car, even under bad weather conditions.

The two laps race ends. The ending feeling of accomplishment and having had so much fun, as well as pretty sure having gone through something quite realistic is there. None can steal my thunder now. I feel like I have been racing, not cruising like a grandpa, too scared to use even the throttle through the Nords on my Yellowbird.

In short:

a) Assetto Corsa experience on the Yellowbird: Sunny day 100% grip. I go slow. I can't push. Why does it look like I'm going so slow. I fear this car. I go on through the track. I push once. I success opn the drift. I push again while being still soo scared of my car. I success!. I push again. I understeer into a wall. Return to pits. Repeat. I feel going so slow in this gameFeels as if I'm not racing at all. Feels as if I am not in control of my own car. That's the final taste of things I get from this "sim" on this car.

b) PC experience on the Yellowbird: The car handles as expected even on blue tyres as long as I'm good on throttle/braking both. IO can go fast. I feel confidence on my car. I feel the speed. I race under amazing weather conditions as I continue to push the car sideways, and burn my street-medium tyres to the friggin'ground, but they still respond as I have a brain when they begin to lose grip in some corners, because this car is a beast. The race ends. I have had a so great time no other racing/simulation game will offer me

Those the differences between PC and Assetto.

Is PC less realistic just because It allows me to drive such a difficult car with confidence, and better, enjoying the drive?

IC. Sorry I took so long to respond, I thought it would another set of instructions so I waited until I had a good block of time available.

I wouldn't say PC is less realistic just because of this. We don't even know for sure it's less realistic in general but that is my assumption as PCars is without a vital element in providing realism: a way of determining at what angle the rubber meets the road, or in this case the ice.

Which is more true to life would require someone with access to a real Yellowbird trying it in real conditions as you describe. And anyone who does that is a better man than I am, Gunga Din:)

But your post brings up the point: are we sure we wouldn't be appalled by a really correct simulation, or one that wasn't at least tempered a bit in some situations? I don't think so and I am willing to risk it- so far as a racing game goes that is! In general reality greatly appalls me.

A lifetime ago I lived in L.A. not far from the Riverside Raceway where at that time you could at certain times pay to drive around it at racing speeds. A guy who I never considered very bright or capable had a Porsche (I wasn't into cars enough at the time to remember the model. It wasn't a Yellowbird but he claimed it was "hot"). Anyhow, he always came back alive so it can't be that difficult.

So while I certainly respect your choice if you see it as fun vs. reality & go for fun, I'll always be going for what the best info I can get indicates is the best simulation.

I'm afraid, though, it'll be a long time before we really get the real real thing. A commentator on the qualifying round at Spa today was arguing against the policy of strictly limited testing of the cars. The reason for the limitation is that, the cars being as mind-bogglingly expensive as they are, it would give too much of an advantage to the richer teams like Merc, Ferrari, & Red Bull, who could afford the risk. The commentator's argument was that the teams just had to use these simulation units for their drivers that came in at millions per. And the drivers still complained that, "There's only so much you can do with the simulators."

Regards,
Rick

Konan
27-08-2017, 10:18
True...simulators (no matter how expensive) have their limits...for example,you are more prone to push the car to or beyond its limits because the factor of danger/expensive repairs is eliminated...
They are very good to get to know the track though and in that the limits of the car so it actually works both ways...

redrick
27-08-2017, 11:57
Dear redrick, You wont have what You are looking for. For what You seen yet, There wont be the dev you are looking for. So let it go. You Will make your choice later. It s Just a game.
Regards

And just a few lines of type, hardly a life's work or any great angst. You're probably right but one never knows. Someone might drop by who's beta-tested the tuning system & (one would think been asked to) especially tried working with the camber and tire temps. And if nobody's been asked to do that it's information in itself of a kind. I've had some interesting conversations with interesting people mostly who are nice, at least to a greater percentage than in that ghastly thing called real life. At nine pages it seems to be interesting to people (of course many more follow without posting) and I'm not keeping it going all by myself. Good to have met you for instance and heard your particular take on the carefully orchestrated sms/wds control here. Look in from time to time & see if anything's turned up.

Regards,
Rick

Roger Prynne
27-08-2017, 15:39
And just a few lines of type, hardly a life's work or any great angst. You're probably right but one never knows. Someone might drop by who's beta-tested the tuning system & (one would think been asked to) especially tried working with the camber and tire temps. And if nobody's been asked to do that it's information in itself of a kind. I've had some interesting conversations with interesting people mostly who are nice, at least to a greater percentage than in that ghastly thing called real life. At nine pages it seems to be interesting people and I'm not keeping it going all by myself. Good to have met you for instance and heard your particular take on the setup here. Look in from time to time & see if anything's turned up.

Regards,
Rick

Camber and temps work perfectly in pCARS2, so can we move on now please.

konnos
27-08-2017, 21:38
Wasn't the camber exploit fixed at some later patch for pc1?

redrick
27-08-2017, 22:08
Camber and temps work perfectly in pCARS2, so can we move on now please.
Thank you very much. How'd you get that so easily? I was about ready to start a whole second thread just to concentrate on it. For sure we can now move on now to other things.

Thanks again,
Rick

edit: @konnos sorry I didn't see your post. I always foul up the multi-quote feature anyway. No, "exploit" still stopping any attempt at full tuning on my PCars1 and my account is set to automatically receive and install all patches. And honespc used the set-to-zero glitch in one of his exercises.

Rick

Mahjik
27-08-2017, 22:28
Wasn't the camber exploit fixed at some later patch for pc1?

There was a mitigation for the camber issue. It didn't completely change the landscape, but it made less camber not have less rolling resistance which was the main issue.

redrick
27-08-2017, 23:00
There was a mitigation for the camber issue. It didn't completely change the landscape, but it made less camber not have less rolling resistance which was the main issue.

Not main issue for me or guybo or many others as we've exhaustively been over in the past and Roger has hopefully put to bed. I'm with his "Avanti!"

Rick

honespc
30-08-2017, 06:23
Here redrick:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSMCfPASImQ

That is an example of the level of absurdity the totally artificial level of understeer in assetto corsa has reached with the years. As you can see now, there is simply no level of simulation at all in Assetto, and if you drive the same car in pc1, you then will realize there's even more simulation to this game. Project Cars is way closer to what you're currently watching in that video. You can slide the car around in pc1 just like that guy does in the video, for then recovering it from every obversteer in a very similar way (harder in project cars, but can be done with both practice, a wheel, and fine use of the throttle/brakes). Try same car now in both games same track, and see it yourself.

Do you see the car perfectly responding to the guy's actions; controlling every oversteer, and no sign of understeer anywhere to be found but just some crazy oversteer that can be controlled?, you have that in project cars 1 already, at least until same road tyres in this game reach 90 or so and you can no longer slide like the guy in the video (and the tyres still green in pc1 lol. That fixed already SMS?, you never answer to this and nowhere to be seen in any pc2 video as of yet)

Cheesenium
30-08-2017, 07:57
Here redrick:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSMCfPASImQ

That is an example of the level of absurdity the totally artificial level of understeer in assetto corsa has reached with the years. As you can see now, there is simply no level of simulation at all in Assetto, and if you drive the same car in pc1, you then will realize there's even more simulation to this game. Project Cars is way closer to what you're currently watching in that video. You can slide the car around in pc1 just like that guy does in the video, for then recovering it from every obversteer in a very similar way (harder in project cars, but can be done with both practice, a wheel, and fine use of the throttle/brakes). Try same car now in both games same track, and see it yourself.

Do you see the car perfectly responding to the guy's actions; controlling every oversteer, and no sign of understeer anywhere to be found but just some crazy oversteer that can be controlled?, you have that in project cars 1 already, at least until same road tyres in this game reach 90 or so and you can no longer slide like the guy in the video (and the tyres still green in pc1 lol. That fixed already SMS?, you never answer to this and nowhere to be seen in any pc2 video as of yet)

I won't say Pcars 1 or Pcars 2 tire model is perfect as there are known issues with SETA when the tire grip is near or over the limit. However, I agree that it is a lot more consistent with what you can see in videos or driver feedback. Despite I feel that even videos do not tell you the whole story. At the end, I think having real drivers consulting the game is a good idea as they could provide much feedback that is not quantifiable in numbers.

AC is good because of their weight transfer system where I think they are still the best in the industry. This gives a very nice sense of weight on their car.

At the bottom line, I think one should just enjoy whatever game one enjoys than nitpicking (which I did above, again) the physics or go around claiming which game is more superior. I enjoyed Pcars, AC, Forza etc for what it is, which it is completely fine. Some people somehow feel that you only can affiliate with one game as if it is a religion. I think that is ridiculous.

OddTimer
30-08-2017, 08:24
Speaking of late date, when is the game supposed to go Gold? It shouldn't be much longer now =]

Sankyo
30-08-2017, 08:44
Speaking of late date, when is the game supposed to go Gold? It shouldn't be much longer now =]
You mean from a development point of view? That happened a long time ago already :)

hkraft300
30-08-2017, 08:55
...
At the bottom line, I think one should just enjoy whatever game one enjoys than nitpicking (which I did above, again) the physics or go around claiming which game is more superior...

We are unqualified to pass judgement on physics of a race car simulator.
We have no reference of real value or quality (education/training, experience in the field/track) to what happens on the track in real life. We don't know how a race car behaves or "feels" behind the wheel.

Hell, even real race drivers and engineers are constantly scratching heads about what's happening with their rubber!

Leper Messiah
30-08-2017, 09:20
Hell, even real race drivers and engineers are constantly scratching heads about what's happening with their rubber!

quoted for truth, I've lost count of the times a driver/rider has been left struggling with a POS setup and no idea where to go to improve. Tyre simulation/grip in sims is the holy grail and I'd say we've barely scratched the surface of reality and how the tyre reacts with the track in various states of wear, tyre compounds, weather, various heat level.......etc etc it's a dark art in reality is it not? I bet most tyre engineers are masters of the blag!!

Sankyo
30-08-2017, 09:22
We are unqualified to pass judgement on physics of a race car simulator.
We have no reference of real value or quality (education/training, experience in the field/track) to what happens on the track in real life. We don't know how a race car behaves or "feels" behind the wheel.

Hell, even real race drivers and engineers are constantly scratching heads about what's happening with their rubber!
Rubbish, because YouTube videos. Any serious sim racer can judge race car and tyre physics from YouTube videos perfectly fine :p

Konan
30-08-2017, 09:30
Rubbish, because YouTube videos. Any serious sim racer can judge race car and tyre physics from YouTube videos perfectly fine :p

You're absolutely right....Andy...LOL

Sankyo
30-08-2017, 09:30
quoted for truth, I've lost count of the times a driver/rider has been left struggling with a POS setup and no idea where to go to improve. Tyre simulation/grip in sims is the holy grail and I'd say we've barely scratched the surface of reality and how the tyre reacts with the track in various states of wear, tyre compounds, weather, various heat level.......etc etc it's a dark art in reality is it not? I bet most tyre engineers are masters of the blag!!
Partially it's a black art, partially it's company secrets IMO. Because simulating how rubber properties change as a function of temperature, wear, internal tyre pressure etc. and how the interaction with the road surface happens and changes is a very complex thing and hence not easy to capture in (manageable) equations and parameters. The knowledge that tyre manufacturers have on this subject is not something they'll easily share, because it's vital for product development and improvement, and hence vital to stay ahead of the competition.

Leper Messiah
30-08-2017, 09:45
Partially it's a black art, partially it's company secrets IMO. Because simulating how rubber properties change as a function of temperature, wear, internal tyre pressure etc. and how the interaction with the road surface happens and changes is a very complex thing and hence not easy to capture in (manageable) equations and parameters. The knowledge that tyre manufacturers have on this subject is not something they'll easily share, because it's vital for product development and improvement, and hence vital to stay ahead of the competition.

So true indeed, I'd wager a large proportion of a cars "specifications" don't get shared with the devs because of the same reasons. bottom line is no computer sim of motorsports will be 100% accurate.

Mind you I'd like to see the drivers and riders who do the tyre testing for the manufacturers to get more involved in gaming. Not sure about cars but I'm certain Colin Edwards, when he retired from racing, tested for Michelin on the GP bikes, he'd know how those tyres felt. I presume that same thing happens for cars. We wouldn't need the "secret sauce recipes", but if they tested the games and gave the thumbs up it'd be a good sign something is right!

honespc
30-08-2017, 12:33
Rubbish, because YouTube videos. Any serious sim racer can judge race car and tyre physics from YouTube videos perfectly fine :pYup, all must be rubbish but these kind of ones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-_S79Z0Ays

Just confess you're the uploader and make this day great.

Mahjik
30-08-2017, 13:10
Not sure about cars but I'm certain Colin Edwards, when he retired from racing, tested for Michelin on the GP bikes, he'd know how those tyres felt. I presume that same thing happens for cars. We wouldn't need the "secret sauce recipes", but if they tested the games and gave the thumbs up it'd be a good sign something is right!

You had that with PC1/WMD1. ;)

hkraft300
30-08-2017, 13:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-_S79Z0Ays




The audio is better in pc2 ^

Leper Messiah
30-08-2017, 19:15
You had that with PC1/WMD1. ;)

I know we had the racers testing it, but did we have a specific "tyre tester" sort of ex racer, you know the ones who just put mega miles on the tyres to see how they work in various track conditions? That sort of info would be gold for a sim would it not?!!

Mahjik
30-08-2017, 21:27
I know we had the racers testing it, but did we have a specific "tyre tester" sort of ex racer, you know the ones who just put mega miles on the tyres to see how they work in various track conditions? That sort of info would be gold for a sim would it not?!!

The Stig does that... He routinely does tests for Michelin.

hkraft300
30-08-2017, 23:58
The Stig does that... He routinely does tests for Michelin.

Pirelli are on board too. SMS were working with them for the McLaren's tyres according to the article.

Leper Messiah
31-08-2017, 09:54
The Stig does that... He routinely does tests for Michelin.


Pirelli are on board too. SMS were working with them for the McLaren's tyres according to the article.

Didn't know that info, cheers both!! :)