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kubikiri
23-08-2017, 11:33
So I can expect bug fixes, expansions, DLCs from the developer in the next several years?

Sankyo
23-08-2017, 11:46
Nobody knows. But if with 'long term' you mean 'like rF2 or iRacing' then no. There will be DLC, bug fixes and such, but pC3 will come after pC2 although how long afterwards no-one knows yet.

honespc
23-08-2017, 11:47
With so many tracks to ride on?. Way to go until getting bored of it, just like in pc1 which still is as fun as it was before.

The four DLCs will come only to expand it even further.

Let's hope for Mugello being one of the DLC tracks..

Cheesenium
23-08-2017, 13:32
If you expect it to be another endless science project like other games in the market, Pcars 2 will not another.

I rather see SMS move on to the next game after 1 year+ with Pcars 2.

F1_Racer68
23-08-2017, 15:33
I fully expect a 2 year lifecycle, much like pCARS1 was.

To me, that's a realistic and appropriate schedule.

Now, about that WMD3 sign up........ when will we hear about that? This time, I AM IN!!

CassielLight
23-08-2017, 17:40
A two-year lifecycle for a recurrent strikes me as about right on present-day hardware. Long gone are the days when one year was plenty--the snail-pace evolution of the NHL series is Exhibit A AFAIC--but Gran Turismo is coming up on only its seventh official title in two decades, which goes too far the other way.

rosko
23-08-2017, 18:32
was it really 2 years though, didn't support drastically fall after 12months?

If the game is in good shape i would be happy with a year tbh as long as they work on 3. 2 would be even better. As well as DLC I really hope they add features like custom grid & championships dont really care about anything else.

Rodgerzzz
23-08-2017, 19:06
Feels like the Project CARS brand as a whole is, excuse the pun, the overarching "project" and each iteration of the sim whether it be 1, 2 or possibly 3 feels like a new build of that vision... so in a sense it does seem like a long term project just stretched out over various releases rather than constantly downloading slightly updated builds every couple of weeks onto the same base software. I'm sure there'll be patches that either add, fix or refine little bits over time as that's the nature of gaming we live in nowadays but I can't imagine anything to the extent of Iracing which in my opinion is no bad thing thing.

honespc
23-08-2017, 19:52
What I fear the most is that they end up changing the handling through some patch even if it was perfect from the scratch in the 1.0 version.

I seriously hope they don't touch it if it's so good from the beginning.

Very good arcade racing games like Driveclub did that and the stealthy filthy way by the way in an effort to make the game more accessible to scrubs, and they kind of ruined the handling and the physics eventually. That hurt a lot, and still does.

Mattze
23-08-2017, 20:26
I fully expect a 2 year lifecycle, much like pCARS1 was.

I don't expect this. The lifecycle of PCars 1 was only so short because they had no more money at release. That's why they want to bring a sequel to fix all the issues from the first game. If PCars 2 runs better (and that is what I expect), then they will support it for a longer cycle, I guess. BTW the new generation of consoles has just been released. So they must wait for a while to get more powerful hardware to implement new features and better graphics (especially VR).

Konan
23-08-2017, 20:33
Wait... what? No more money? I guess that's why SMS gave away free cars and offered the DLC for peanuts...numerous patches cost money also BTW...

Mattze
23-08-2017, 20:40
I think the release flushed a lot of money back to them.

Mahjik
23-08-2017, 21:30
The lifecycle of PCars 1 was only so short because they had no more money at release.

That is completely false....

Mattze
23-08-2017, 22:51
Maybe ... I've heard about it. Fact is that PCars 1 was released too early.

Konan
23-08-2017, 22:56
Maybe ... I've heard about it. Fact is that PCars 1 was released too early.

...mostly due to public pressure...

F1_Racer68
23-08-2017, 23:08
...mostly due to public pressure...

Only because the were overly ambicious with their originally planned release dates which they rightfully had to delay several times.

People will only be patient for so long.

That's another area where it's easy to see that they learned from their mistakes with the first one, since they never mentioned a release date for 2 until they were very confident in meeting it.

Bliman
23-08-2017, 23:40
I shall quote a famous man
"A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever."
Where I am not implying that Project Cars was bad, but they weren't focussed on all the platforms.
They liked to cram so much in a game but did not do enough testing that something got to give, especially because it was their first try.
I hope they learned their lesson with PC2 because I love their spirit for racing.
They are so ambitious in the features they try to incorporate.
I hope they succeed.

Trippul G
24-08-2017, 00:23
I hope they learned their lesson with PC2 because I love their spirit for racing.
They are so ambitious in the features they try to incorporate.
I hope they succeed.

That's more or less how I feel. I'm willing to overlook many of PCARS1's issues and lack of polish in some areas because, considering the size of the team they had and the much smaller budget in comparison to some competitors, PCARS1 was essentially an indie game, in my mind anyway. The fact that it, and now PCARS 2, are mentioned in the same sentence (and favorably so, in most cases I think) with games like Forza and GT is a testament to what SMS have accomplished. I love that they saw an opportunity to fill a void and set out to do a better job than the established industry giants. They may not have been 100% successful on every front, but I respect the hell out of the job they've done so far, and am looking forward to what they've got in store for us.

GenBrien
24-08-2017, 01:00
Now, about that WMD3 sign up........ when will we hear about that? This time, I AM IN!!

I was in the 1st one, but was not able to be in Pcars2
can be sure I'll be in Pcars3 (if it'll still be doable)

Cheesenium
24-08-2017, 06:37
I don't expect this. The lifecycle of PCars 1 was only so short because they had no more money at release. That's why they want to bring a sequel to fix all the issues from the first game. If PCars 2 runs better (and that is what I expect), then they will support it for a longer cycle, I guess. BTW the new generation of consoles has just been released. So they must wait for a while to get more powerful hardware to implement new features and better graphics (especially VR).

There are a lot of deep seated issues that you cannot just fix it with a patch without turning it into a very expensive patch to develop. Worse, breaking the entire game for us. Such as the issue with the codes breaking after every patch because the base of the code is not as good as it should be or that camber exploit that took them a while to fix it in WMD2. The code base is better now, it does not mean they magically fixed everything that is wrong with it. Nothing's perfect in this world.

It is nice to have games with "eternal" support but there is a limit on how much they can bring, how much they can fix and how much risk they can take. At the end, I rather they move on from Pcars 2 after 1 year plus (ideally, 2 years is fine for me while they are actively developing 3) than sticking to Pcars 2 because of some "moral" obligations expected by some people.

There is an original proposal that is probably invalid these days in WMD1 that lists out some of the "nice to have" features of Pcars. I highly doubt they will be able to add a lot of those "nice to have" features to 2 without making an entire new game or a very expensive DLC.

Sankyo
24-08-2017, 09:24
Some things are too risky to try and fix in a patch, so it has to be in a new version of the game. Of course that's not nice for customers, but there's no other way on the developer end if you want to stay in business. This software is so complex, that the chances of getting everything right the first time with only minor issues to solve are simply zero. The fundamental issues that were not seen/caught/fixed during development may have to remain unfixed until the next iteration, as trying to fix them is too risky or costly.

The only way I can see to have more and more complex patches over a longer period of time is making the game twice as expensive, i.e. the customer pays for the extended support.


In my daily work I see the exact same things happen every single day. That doesn't make it all good and nice, but I have come to understand that this is how complex software development works. Unless we get super-intelligent and super-fast machines do our coding :).

Mattze
24-08-2017, 18:51
There are a lot of deep seated issues that you cannot just fix it with a patch without turning it into a very expensive patch to develop. Worse, breaking the entire game for us. Such as the issue with the codes breaking after every patch because the base of the code is not as good as it should be or that camber exploit that took them a while to fix it in WMD2. The code base is better now, it does not mean they magically fixed everything that is wrong with it. Nothing's perfect in this world.

It is nice to have games with "eternal" support but there is a limit on how much they can bring, how much they can fix and how much risk they can take. At the end, I rather they move on from Pcars 2 after 1 year plus (ideally, 2 years is fine for me while they are actively developing 3) than sticking to Pcars 2 because of some "moral" obligations expected by some people.

There is an original proposal that is probably invalid these days in WMD1 that lists out some of the "nice to have" features of Pcars. I highly doubt they will be able to add a lot of those "nice to have" features to 2 without making an entire new game or a very expensive DLC.

This is exactly what I mean. They cannot fix major issues with patches, so a new release becomes necessary. If PCars 2 is spared from large bugs, the lifecycle will be longer, otherwise we'll see PCars 3 sooner.

unknwn
24-08-2017, 20:26
I agree that implementing major changes after release might be risky assuming the product is stable and polished in the first place. PCARS1 was not, in fact it had many gamebreaking bugs and MP was pretty much "broken" for many of us. I wouldn't mind to see major changes and/or handling improvments for the game that is in a state like PCARS1 was.

Cheesenium
25-08-2017, 03:44
This is exactly what I mean. They cannot fix major issues with patches, so a new release becomes necessary. If PCars 2 is spared from large bugs, the lifecycle will be longer, otherwise we'll see PCars 3 sooner.

You can never eliminate all the deep seated bugs. They will be always there which you need code overhaul to fix them that is difficult to do in a live game.

Even games like Starcraft 2 still have serious design limitations that they do not even dare to touch it with a 10-foot pole. For example, the reconnect feature in the Starcraft 2 engine is atrocious compared to majority of the games in the market. If they are fixing that issue, they need to make Starcraft 3 to justify the effort, cost and time to fix it. The bug had been there for years, still no improvement done on that issue.

Personally, I do not really want an "eternal science project" game. AC was fun for the first 2-3 years, now, it felt so stale and boring because Kunos could not even keep up with the scheduele of supporting the game with months of gaps with no news at all. While R3E is fun, there are some aspect of that game also felt quite static and dated. Also have months and months stretch with no news.

4dri3l
25-08-2017, 05:39
Long term projects only works for people that don't like to see things changing.. look Ac or rfactor, they stoped in time... pcars approach allow things to evolve faster.

Cheesenium
25-08-2017, 08:19
Long term projects only works for people that don't like to see things changing.. look Ac or rfactor, they stoped in time... pcars approach allow things to evolve faster.

I guess Pcars will be interesting until it reach the point it gets stale. The changes in 2 to 1 is drastic with the Livetrack feature and also 4 season racing.

As long as they keep doing leaps in changes, I do not mind. At this point, I hope Pcars 3 will have an even more indepth version of performance tuning that you commonly see in GT or Forza. Like you can pick the body kits and aero dynamics of your car along with performance parts for a selected vehicles.

Fictional cars like Marek and RWD will be interesting if they are presented as premade vehicle that you can select and modify it to your liking. Want a Ferrari 488 engine powered LMP2, shove it in the Marek. Like how the IMSA DPi works.

Pisshead30
27-08-2017, 08:41
In my opinion PCars2 will be a long term project if it is a successful unbroken release unlike PCars1.
We all know there was major issues with PCars1 but after several patches it couldn't be fixed any further so the only way to continue was to start PCars2.
Keeping my fingers crossed the 2nd instalment will be a success on console and will be enjoyed by many and hated by very few

GenBrien
27-08-2017, 11:42
We all know there was major issues with PCars1 but after several patches it couldn't be fixed any further so the only way to continue was to start PCars2.


that's REALLY not how it works......

Trippul G
27-08-2017, 13:50
At this point, I hope Pcars 3 will have an even more indepth version of performance tuning that you commonly see in GT or Forza. Like you can pick the body kits and aero dynamics of your car along with performance parts for a selected vehicles.

Fictional cars like Marek and RWD will be interesting if they are presented as premade vehicle that you can select and modify it to your liking. Want a Ferrari 488 engine powered LMP2, shove it in the Marek. Like how the IMSA DPi works.

Oh man, I hope not. I've played Forza from the very beginning, and I'm so tired of seeing nonsense like AWD Vipers and Mustangs, and V10s or 12s being dropped in something like the Datsun 510, and suddenly it's a Ferrari killer.

That's something I enjoy about PCARS...knowing that every car I use or compete against has realistic options and specs that one could realistically expect to encounter in the real world.

F1_Racer68
27-08-2017, 15:22
Oh man, I hope not. I've played Forza from the very beginning, and I'm so tired of seeing nonsense like AWD Vipers and Mustangs, and V10s or 12s being dropped in something like the Datsun 510, and suddenly it's a Ferrari killer.

That's something I enjoy about PCARS...knowing that every car I use or compete against has realistic options and specs that one could realistically expect to encounter in the real world.

And people wonder why I call Forza an arcade racer...... It's just a different spin on the Need For Speed franchise style.

I look for ones that give me the sim factor. That means real.cars, real specs, real performance, real handling, real risks (NO REWIND BS!!). If I F it up, my race is over.

PCARS needs to stick to their current formula.

Mahjik
27-08-2017, 16:29
Oh man, I hope not. I've played Forza from the very beginning, and I'm so tired of seeing nonsense like AWD Vipers and Mustangs, and V10s or 12s being dropped in something like the Datsun 510, and suddenly it's a Ferrari killer.

No worries.. That whole concept was struck down immediately during PC1. I don't ever see it returning for the Project CARS franchise. Not to say SMS doesn't do another title, like Shift which does modifications.

Trippul G
27-08-2017, 18:29
And people wonder why I call Forza an arcade racer...... It's just a different spin on the Need For Speed franchise style.

I look for ones that give me the sim factor. That means real.cars, real specs, real performance, real handling, real risks (NO REWIND BS!!). If I F it up, my race is over.

PCARS needs to stick to their current formula.

And, I mean don't get me wrong, it's not to say that it can't be fun to throw on some crazy upgrades and have a 900 HP Celica or whatever, but there comes a time when you want something a bit more serious, a bit more realistic than that. For the longest time, Forza was as close as we could get (on Xbox anyway), and we just had to accept the nonsense along with it as part of the package.

That's why I'm so glad that PC1, and now PC2, have come along to give us an alternative option for those of us looking for some realistic racing scenarios.

F1_Racer68
27-08-2017, 22:45
And, I mean don't get me wrong, it's not to say that it can't be fun to throw on some crazy upgrades and have a 900 HP Celica or whatever, but there comes a time when you want something a bit more serious, a bit more realistic than that. For the longest time, Forza was as close as we could get (on Xbox anyway), and we just had to accept the nonsense along with it as part of the package.

That's why I'm so glad that PC1, and now PC2, have come along to give us an alternative option for those of us looking for some realistic racing scenarios.

Totally agree. I enjoy the less realistic racers at times as well. But it's the ability to do the "silly" and "unrealistic" stiff in those games that makesnit hard fpr.me.tomaccept having pCARS compared to them or be held up as "competition" to them. They are totally different sub genres.

I accept that from the consoles side they are the biggest sellers and therefore the biggest market competition, but having the game constantly compared to Forza and GT in the media really does it a disservice on the PC side, where it should really be getting compared to iRacing and the like. And by the way.... iRacing knows it, and they are worried. It's the only explanation for how quickly they have been introducing neww cars and new features this year. They have introduced more new content/updates since February than they have in the past 3 years.

hkraft300
28-08-2017, 00:58
... having the game constantly compared to Forza and GT in the media really does it a disservice on the PC side, where it should really be getting compared to iRacing and the like. And by the way.... iRacing knows it, and they are worried.

It's a disservice to pcars even on console.
Hear it all the time (YT, gaming sites) and I think: have they actually played Forza/GT or are they thinking back with Rose tinted glasses?
Pcars is on that RF2, iracing level. Even the staunchest critic will place pc2 at that level, and pc3 will leave them right behind.

Cheesenium
28-08-2017, 05:39
Oh man, I hope not. I've played Forza from the very beginning, and I'm so tired of seeing nonsense like AWD Vipers and Mustangs, and V10s or 12s being dropped in something like the Datsun 510, and suddenly it's a Ferrari killer.

That's something I enjoy about PCARS...knowing that every car I use or compete against has realistic options and specs that one could realistically expect to encounter in the real world.

The reason I want customisation in pcars is mainly for a proper time attack class than every single car can be modified. You can take a stock 86 and modify it so that it can compete in different levels of time attack-esque races. And the car could not be fielded to go against other road cars or other GT classes.

The other part I would like to see is something like IMSA DPi program where a manufacturer can modify a platfrom from Oreca or Ligier to build a custom made LMP2. Or some other cars like Group 5 or old F1 do have privateers changing some body works like Lotus 49 or 935 do have many different kits through out it's racing life.

Heck, even simple things, like changing the rim for the Group As would be nice.

I am not asking for V12 being planted in a Megane and suddenly it is a hyper car killer, it is absurd. I just want a bit more customisations for some classes that do have some level customisations in real life. If not, what major leap Pcars 3 can provide if it comes out in a few years time? Manager mode like Motorsports Manager? More disciplines but that does not necessarily add much to the game? The main thing is, I am worried that Pcars 3 might be stale if all they add is new tracks and cars.

redrick
28-08-2017, 06:59
The reason I want customisation in pcars is mainly for a proper time attack class than every single car can be modified. You can take a stock 86 and modify it so that it can compete in different levels of time attack-esque races. And the car could not be fielded to go against other road cars or other GT classes.

The other part I would like to see is something like IMSA DPi program where a manufacturer can modify a platfrom from Oreca or Ligier to build a custom made LMP2. Or some other cars like Group 5 or old F1 do have privateers changing some body works like Lotus 49 or 935 do have many different kits through out it's racing life.

Heck, even simple things, like changing the rim for the Group As would be nice.

I am not asking for V12 being planted in a Megane and suddenly it is a hyper car killer, it is absurd. I just want a bit more customisations for some classes that do have some level customisations in real life. If not, what major leap Pcars 3 can provide if it comes out in a few years time? Manager mode like Motorsports Manager? More disciplines but that does not necessarily add much to the game? The main thing is, I am worried that Pcars 3 might be stale if all they add is new tracks and cars.

I too would very much enjoy customization, but the problem is figuring out some way of determining more or less equal cars to race with. GTs old PP system is generally and rightfully laughed out of court. It often produced a zoo on track. You would need some way of using only cars in the same class to start with, that had a more or less equivalent value of modifications. To that online you would need a program that could somehow diagnose how much advantage your modifications gave you. Then you could have an online race that allowed cars of a given class with mods up to a certain level. Offline would be even more difficult- something like a racing weekend would require an AI that could select compatible upgrades that are different but equivalent in advantage to yours. Difficult but not impossible and not likely to happen unless there's a lot of support for it. First we'd need to change this clumsy description of mine into something much shorter and clearer and then bring it up and suggest other like minded people also do so on every possible occasion.

Maybe at first it could be implemented for just a few classes. Or (and it would take quite a few) cars matching "souped up" cars in real races could be included in the list and you could be given the option of using a stock version with modifications of your own up to a certain point that more or less matched those. GT5 and/or 6 had such "racing version" cars which were the same model as stock versions you could buy for a lower price with lower PP.

Pisshead30
28-08-2017, 07:07
that's REALLY not how it works......

Maybe Remco's post #21 is a better way of saying what I meant

redrick
28-08-2017, 08:02
I don't expect this. The lifecycle of PCars 1 was only so short because they had no more money at release. That's why they want to bring a sequel to fix all the issues from the first game. If PCars 2 runs better (and that is what I expect), then they will support it for a longer cycle, I guess. BTW the new generation of consoles has just been released. So they must wait for a while to get more powerful hardware to implement new features and better graphics (especially VR).

Hilarious! That completely contradicts what I was told in another thread (the "One Vast Improvement..." thing). There were plenty of people and resources, I was told. The fixes were just too complex or some of them might even break the game. Didn't believe it & said so- that it would be hard in our wonderful neo-liberal world not to convince people it wasn't about money.

What you're saying perfectly matches what happened back then as I experienced it. So will they have plenty of money to fix things if PCars 2 doesn't quite match our expectations? & even then it'd be nice to know if they had a generous budget set aside or planned to take the money and run.

But I'm glad to hear you expect a longer cycle this time. Because if there are problems and they aren't fixed with alacrity the reputation of PCars X will have sunk so low they'd have a hard time selling it to investors much less the public. Also of course the longer cycle will increase the useful life span of our current equipment and save us for a while from the next large output of $.

I really hope PCars 2 runs not just better but hugely better and I don't mean features, just reliability so we can kick back and enjoy it instead of fooling around F1 or Assetto Corsa or GT Sport (which sounds like it's going to be a real pig) and hassling on the forums & waiting for monthly patches and that whole nightmare we had last time.

Thanks much for sharing the wisdom,

Regards,

Rick

Konan
28-08-2017, 08:08
So while you are accusing people of cheating and quoting parts of posts to their convenience in "that other thread" you now do the same in this one?
You conveniently didn't read the answers to the post you quoted?

hkraft300
28-08-2017, 08:23
Hilarious! ....

Thanks much for sharing the wisdom,

Regards,

Rick

:applause:

Ian Bell
28-08-2017, 08:24
redrick, you're right at the limit of bearable passive aggressive trolling now. Stop it please.

Sankyo
28-08-2017, 08:24
Hilarious! That completely contradicts what I was told in another thread (the "One Vast Improvement..." thing). There were plenty of people and resources, I was told.
Not sure where you got that from, but that's simply not true. SMS's team was much smaller for pC1, and money-wise it was also much more limited.


The fixes were just too complex or some of them might even break the game.
This was an additional problem that resulted in certain bugs not getting fixes.


Didn't believe it & said so- that it would be hard in our wonderful neo-liberal world not to convince people it wasn't about money.

What you're saying perfectly matches what happened back then as I experienced it. So will they have plenty of money to fix things if PCars 2 doesn't quite match our expectations? & even then it'd be nice to know if they had a generous budget set aside or planned to take the money and run.
I think you're having a bit simplistic world view here. When you have "plenty of money", it still needs to be decided to spend it all on making fixes, especially spending lots of money on complex bugs (if any) that have a big risk of breaking stuff, requiring even more work. So it's still a question of Return-Of-Interest, either spend a lot of money in such cases to fix something with no returns, or reserve that money to put in pC3 development so that can have even more/better features.

Ian Bell
28-08-2017, 08:27
Hilarious! That completely contradicts what I was told in another thread (the "One Vast Improvement..." thing). There were plenty of people and resources, I was told. The fixes were just too complex or some of them might even break the game. Didn't believe it & said so- that it would be hard in our wonderful neo-liberal world not to convince people it wasn't about money.

What you're saying perfectly matches what happened back then as I experienced it. So will they have plenty of money to fix things if PCars 2 doesn't quite match our expectations? & even then it'd be nice to know if they had a generous budget set aside or planned to take the money and run.

But I'm glad to hear you expect a longer cycle this time. Because if there are problems and they aren't fixed with alacrity the reputation of PCars X will have sunk so low they'd have a hard time selling it to investors much less the public. Also of course the longer cycle will increase the useful life span of our current equipment and save us for a while from the next large output of $.

I really hope PCars 2 runs not just better but hugely better and I don't mean features, just reliability so we can kick back and enjoy it instead of fooling around F1 or Assetto Corsa or GT Sport (which sounds like it's going to be a real pig) and hassling on the forums & waiting for monthly patches and that whole nightmare we had last time.

Thanks much for sharing the wisdom,

Regards,

Rick



Actually rethink, remove this guy mods, ban his IP.

Just before you go redrick, we have so much interest and offers in so many areas, from so many investors and publishers to get a taste of the pCARS franchise (and potential offshoots), I couldn't start to detail it.

Go imagine our fictional demise somewhere else.

Konan
28-08-2017, 08:31
Gone...

Rodgerzzz
28-08-2017, 21:43
You've gotta love the tin foil hat brigade and their nonsensical agendas... keep doing what you're doing SMS, you've created something that us console guys have been crying out for for years, a goddamn proper racing game devoid of the gimmicks within the established titles.

CassielLight
30-08-2017, 13:39
You've gotta love the tin foil hat brigade and their nonsensical agendas... keep doing what you're doing SMS, you've created something that us console guys have been crying out for for years, a goddamn proper racing game devoid of the gimmicks within the established titles.

I wish I could "Like" that more than just once.

Konan
30-08-2017, 13:47
I wish I could "Like" that more than just once.

Just put +1000000000.... Message understood...:cool: