PDA

View Full Version : Career mode - missed opportunity



Javaniceday
08-09-2017, 21:31
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIsh1sdPa0I

Well, here it is. Sounds like it's identical to the press releases being shown off on youtube.

Massive missed opportunities -
Scripted weather again - kills all reason to replay a season

To "beat" a tier you have to win the championship - You should get rewarded for doing well - either within your tier, or another higher tier

Contracts completely unrelated to the teams - so what's the point?

Sigh, so, I'm a complaining machine - the UI is better, so that's good. But for pCARS3, I'll sign up for WMD, but my purpose will be to help design the single player career mode, because this is not .... worth playing, honestly. I'll just stick to multiplayer.

May as well just have separate championships one can choose, and not try to tie them all together in this superficial way...

cluck
08-09-2017, 23:47
If WMD3 is available to sign up to, don't assume that your ideas for single-player will be accepted. If the devs were to make a game for everybody, the game would never be released and it would be an ungodly mess. That's not to put you off joining, it's simply to point out the, sometimes, harsh realities of game design. There are millions (many many millions) of potential players out there and they will all want their own thing from the game, meaning a game will never ever appeal to all of them in all aspects. Just keep that in mind if/when you sign up, as it will save a lot of potential disappointment.

On the flipside, throwing ideas in is what WMD is about. It's about seeing what sticks and what can work. Ideas are what make a game's development thrive :).

Mahjik
08-09-2017, 23:58
But for pCARS3, I'll sign up for WMD, but my purpose will be to help design the single player career mode, because this is not .... worth playing, honestly.

So, you assume no one in WMD had ideas like yours?

Javaniceday
09-09-2017, 00:05
So, you assume no one in WMD had ideas like yours?

who knows? Did they?

And were they overruled by the directors who simply had different artistic goals? I've never read anyone who thought having scripted weather was a good idea.

And of course, I'll be one of many pitching ideas in WMD, but at least I'll have more of a chance to be an influence than on this forum 4 to 5 months before the game is released.

Hope springs eternal...

RacingAtHome
09-09-2017, 00:10
who knows? Did they?

And were they overruled by the directors who simply had different artistic goals? I've never read anyone who thought having scripted weather was a good idea.

And of course, I'll be one of many pitching ideas in WMD, but at least I'll have more of a chance to be an influence than on this forum 4 to 5 months before the game is released.

Hope springs eternal...

I'd be willing to bet my house that many people on WMD2 suggested non-scripted weather and a change of the slots system to allow that and improved randomised weather. And I'm also willing to bet my house on the fact that limited resources in terms of man hours will have prevented the ability to implement this. Maybe the improvements of the weather and improvements to processes will allow other areas to be changed more easily thus allowing for a better weather system in PC3. Maybe a new Variable weather system will be able to use IRL data to generate a realistic weather pattern despite it being somewhat random in areas.

Javaniceday
09-09-2017, 00:19
I'd be willing to bet my house on the fact that limited resources in terms of man hours will have prevented the ability to implement this. Maybe the improvements of the weather and improvements to processes will allow other areas to be changed more easily thus allowing for a better weather system in PC3.

From what I read in regards to production of pCARS1, it was an artistic decision, not a technical one. They didn't want it to randomly rain in Dubai, for instance. The wrong decision, tbh. And also, I'm in the industry, so to me it makes sense that if they can make it work in multiplayer they could make it work in single player. I just don't buy it.

I could be wrong, but even if it was a technical problem, it's worth delaying the game to change it 'cuz, again, it's a huge detriment to the game.

hkraft300
09-09-2017, 00:24
I wonder if you can "make your own career mode" in custom championship.

Javaniceday
09-09-2017, 00:34
I wonder if you can "make your own career mode" in custom championship.

I don't think there's a custom championship option, is there?

GenBrien
09-09-2017, 00:37
I don't think there's a custom championship option, is there?

not for now it seems

Mahjik
09-09-2017, 00:50
who knows? Did they?

The first rule of Fight Club is: You do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is: You DO NOT TALK ABOUT FIGHT CLUB!

Trippul G
09-09-2017, 01:03
So, in his reasoning behind having scripted career weather, Stephen said something to the effect of "because of how we track player progression, it's not really fair if players have vastly different experiences".

Can anyone explain what he's talking about? Because that really doesn't make any sense to me. I thought the whole idea behind career mode is to have different experiences...to start in whatever discipline you want, progress through the ranks how you see fit, etc? I don't see how having non-scripted weather would compromise someone's experience. In fact, I would imagine it to be quite the opposite. Of course you don't want to have a thunderstorm in Dubai or a blizzard at Laguna Seca, but if it was scripted in such a way that silliness such as that were not allowed to occur, and variation could only occur amongst weather that you might reasonably expect to find in the real world at that location and date, I'm sure I would find that to be a much more enjoyable experience.

Codemasters does this very well with the F1 series of games...you play the same tracks in the same order every season, but you never know exactly what to expect weather-wise, from one season to the next. This keeps it exciting and breaks the monotony of feeling like you're doing the exact same thing, over and over. Which, in fact, was one of the things I hated most about PC1 Career...doing the LMP1 Championship four times in a row to get the Defending Champ achievement...and knowing exactly what to expect for every single session...it was monotonous to say the least, and felt like a very poor design decision. It's disappointing to me to see that the same decision was made for PCARS2, especially given the fact that I don't have very many online friends that I play with, and tend to stick to single player/career modes with most games.

I'll still play it of course, but between the scripted weather and how contracts don't really seem to matter (being able to pick absolutely anything you want), it sounds like career still hasn't quite hit the mark.

Mahjik
09-09-2017, 01:25
So, in his reasoning behind having scripted career weather, Stephen said something to the effect of "because of how we track player progression, it's not really fair if players have vastly different experiences".

Probably talking about players getting randomly more rain or other inclement weather than other players (i.e. some players could have a harder time for unlocking achievements than others and achievement hunters are a big thing these days). I don't think it really matters the reasons, it is what it is at the end of the day.

Javaniceday
09-09-2017, 01:27
So, in his reasoning behind having scripted career weather, Stephen said something to the effect of "because of how we track player progression, it's not really fair if players have vastly different experiences".

Can anyone explain what he's talking about? Because that really doesn't make any sense to me. I thought the whole idea behind career mode is to have different experiences...to start in whatever discipline you want, progress through the ranks how you see fit, etc? I don't see how having non-scripted weather would compromise someone's experience.


Hear, hear

I don't buy that explanation either - if he'd say something like "we ran out of time", "we had to focus assets elsewhere", "we like it this way", "it introduced too many bugs", that would be believable.


one of the things I hated most about PC1 Career...doing the LMP1 Championship four times in a row to get the Defending Champ achievement...and knowing exactly what to expect for every single session...it was monotonous to say the least, and felt like a very poor design decision.

So much this. Achievements need to mean something. You unlock the achievement and..... and what? nothing? a text box? that's it? This is elementary game design.

They already have achievements, and these need to unlock something significant within the career mode - like a team in a higher tier that is super picky about who they give contracts to. Be creative.

hkraft300
09-09-2017, 02:03
So, in his reasoning behind having scripted career weather, Stephen said something to the effect of "because of how we track player progression, it's not really fair if players have vastly different experiences".


My guess is it's for the "achievements" and "trophies" culture of today's gaming. :rolleyes:

Trippul G
09-09-2017, 02:03
I don't buy that explanation either - if he'd say something like "we ran out of time", "we had to focus assets elsewhere", "we like it this way", "it introduced too many bugs", that would be believable.

To use F1 as an example again, your goal obviously is to win the championship...but I can't say that I've heard anyone complaining about it having poor and unfair game design because it unexpectedly rained in the final race and they lost the championship as a result. No...you accept that that's racing, and you move on and vow to do better next time. I fail to see why this game should be any different in that regard.



Achievements need to mean something. You unlock the achievement and..... and what? nothing? a text box? that's it? This is elementary game design.

They already have achievements, and these need to unlock something significant within the career mode - like a team in a higher tier that is super picky about who they give contracts to. Be creative.

Totally agree. That's kind of the double-edged sword of the "any car, any time, any place" design philosophy. Sure it's great in that you have the freedom to do whatever you want, but in career mode you have to be very careful that it doesn't lead to feeling a lack of achievement or progression because too much is available too easily.

Do we know for a fact that you definitely have to win a championship in order to progress to the next tier? I didn't get that from the video, but I may have missed it or simply misunderstood. If this is the case, and winning is the only way to move up (as opposed to merely doing well, e.g. placing 3rd or 5th or whatever and being offered less lucrative contracts with perhaps less competitive teams or something along those lines), I feel like this too is a misstep.

Trippul G
09-09-2017, 02:16
My guess is it's for the "achievements" and "trophies" culture of today's gaming. :rolleyes:

Well, I think if achievements/trophies are really that important to a player, that if they suddenly were blindsided with inclement weather and found themselves having a rough go with it, they'd likely just drop the AI difficulty to a lower level so they can get what they're after.

Tying everyone's hands by forcing scripted weather on all of us to make it "fair" for those who are more concerned with stats and trophies rather than realism and the excitement of the unknown seems, well...let's just say it's sure as hell not the choice I would've made.

ecstaticbrick
09-09-2017, 02:37
If they are worried about player progression issues, have it as a option before starting a new career. Scripted or Realistic (depending on the date/ season)!

Javaniceday
09-09-2017, 03:15
Do we know for a fact that you definitely have to win a championship in order to progress to the next tier? I didn't get that from the video, but I may have missed it or simply misunderstood. If this is the case, and winning is the only way to move up (as opposed to merely doing well, e.g. placing 3rd or 5th or whatever and being offered less lucrative contracts with perhaps less competitive teams or something along those lines), I feel like this too is a misstep.

It wasn't confirmed in that video. I have seen other people play the preview builds and this how I've seen them move up a tier - when they win the championship. There's also a line he says "when people beat a tier they move up" or something like that. "beat" a tier? That can only mean winning the championship - it doesn't make any sense otherwise.

In regards to any car any time design, yeah that's awesome, you can pick any car for multiplayer or single races. Race anywhere, any time. That's awesome. But for career where it simulates real life motorsport? You have to earn being able to move up. They already know this because you have get specific criteria to move up in tiers, except that the criteria logic makes no sense. F12011 did a better job. It make sense when you first start the career to let you start anywhere. But once you've started... if someone starts in formula rookie, it's obvious they want to earn their way up.

Being able to lower the AI so they can "win" makes no sense.

So many contradictions.

Trippul G
09-09-2017, 04:06
It wasn't confirmed in that video. I have seen other people play the preview builds and this how I've seen them move up a tier - when they win the championship. There's also a line he says "when people beat a tier they move up" or something like that. "beat" a tier? That can only mean winning the championship - it doesn't make any sense otherwise.



I've watched a number of "career walkthroughs" on YouTube as well, but honestly I'm not sure that I've ever seen anyone NOT come in first at the end of the championship in question, so maybe it IS possible to progress without taking first place.

Even if they use the term "beat" the tier to move up, the word "beat" to me means doing what is required to achieve success. It may not necessarily mean that winning (finishing in 1st place) is the only way. Maybe. I hope. Can anyone confirm this one way or the other please?

Cheesenium
09-09-2017, 05:23
who knows? Did they?

And were they overruled by the directors who simply had different artistic goals? I've never read anyone who thought having scripted weather was a good idea.

And of course, I'll be one of many pitching ideas in WMD, but at least I'll have more of a chance to be an influence than on this forum 4 to 5 months before the game is released.

Hope springs eternal...

I did, I did pitched for an alternative randomised and customised career that is similar to Dirt Rally had. You pick the number of tracks you want to race on and what car you want to drive for that season, the game can either randomise one for you or you pick what you like.

OddTimer
09-09-2017, 07:30
I think SMS went for scripted for two reasons, technical and to make it accessible....I don't know, the overall feeling I have is that PC2 will be the game PC1 was supposed to be. Don't get me wrong, I've preordered the game and can't wait to play it.

Just looking at the career specifically, another aspect that I expected to have been improved is race length....a GT4 race in real life is longer than 20 mins. I think both scripted weather and race length in career only highlight the importance of an offline custom championship which unfortunately is not in the game.

Last hope is that the game allows you to add AI to online championship, but I doubt that will be the case, at least not on launch day otherwise SMS would have told us.

seb02
09-09-2017, 07:32
Personally, I find that the scripted weather in career mode is not really good news. What is the meaning of make a championship again knowing that it will rain or not on this or that circuit. I will also add that career mode does not allow a championship with GTO, Stockcars, Megane trophy V6 .... Finally I will add that I would have preferred not to have the regional championships which are generally very short: as much to make a single championship consistent.

When we put all this in parallel with the Online championship which will allow it to make championships of all the categories, to set the weather, the duration, the date and time ..., I think but why restrict this mode of play only to Online Players? I think it makes no sense. On the one hand, there is a scripted career mode (date, time, circuits, weather) for offline players and on the other a custom championship where everything is possible for online players.

Project cars is very beautiful, the list of vehicles is good (lack of modern touring cars for me), the list of circuits is consistent, improvements have been made, there is no doubt. But being an offline player, I hesitate to buy this game because the offline mode is not very different from the first opus (an offline custom championship would have been the most value). I add that the addition of indycar is, for me, a real plus. All this is of course a personal opinion.

honespc
09-09-2017, 07:34
The Career stream..., was really disappointing too java. It's always the same story, pleasing the casual and the "I have no time to play" people (then don't play damn it), as well as other design decisions difficult to understand unless you are of course one of those.

The again scripted weather has been the cake on the ice. Random or real weather for career could have raise the bar in this mode so high. What was the problem in at least offering the player the option for random and real weather once we have beaten it, or accomplished/clear some certain number of high tiers?.

Rodgerzzz
09-09-2017, 08:41
I was the one who asked the question about the weather in the stream, feel like it opened a can of worms :D I was slightly disappointed by the answer in that the weather will be the same no matter how many times you run that particular championship. As other people have mentioned, the option to use real world weather or even a selection of realistic weather slots could really have pushed this area of career forward.

Konan
09-09-2017, 08:59
I really don't see the issue here...IRL they can predict the weather within minutes from it happening...
In pcars1 you knew at what moment it was going to start to rain...SMS eliminated that predictability by basically saying:" yes the weather is scripted so you know it's going to rain but you don't know when AND it could start to rain at a different moment when you run the race next time/season"

Bealdor
09-09-2017, 09:01
I've watched a number of "career walkthroughs" on YouTube as well, but honestly I'm not sure that I've ever seen anyone NOT come in first at the end of the championship in question, so maybe it IS possible to progress without taking first place.

Even if they use the term "beat" the tier to move up, the word "beat" to me means doing what is required to achieve success. It may not necessarily mean that winning (finishing in 1st place) is the only way. Maybe. I hope. Can anyone confirm this one way or the other please?

You don't have to win the championship to move up a tier. AFAIK podium should be enough.

Trippul G
09-09-2017, 09:07
You don't have to win the championship to move up a tier. AFAIK podium should be enough.

Thanks, Bealdor. So does taking 3rd place for example affect the number or type of contracts you're offered compared to finishing in 1st?

RacingAtHome
09-09-2017, 10:30
The Career stream..., was really disappointing too java. It's always the same story, pleasing the casual and the "I have no time to play" people (then don't play damn it), as well as other design decisions difficult to understand unless you are of course one of those.

The again scripted weather has been the cake on the ice. Random or real weather for career could have raise the bar in this mode so high. What was the problem in at least offering the player the option for random and real weather once we have beaten it, or accomplished/clear some certain number of high tiers?.
Erm. You do realise that SMS are a business intended to make a profit, yes? If so, you wouldn't have made that comment. There are billions of people in the world and SMS have a realistic market of a million or 2 of that at most. Not all of those are hardcore race full length races and championships so SMS have to cater to them.

OddTimer
09-09-2017, 10:36
I can live with the scripted weather knowing that weather conditions will change at different times during a race. What really bugs me is the length of those races.

Sankyo
09-09-2017, 10:50
IMO we've improved a lot from pC1 to pC2 w.r.t. features that deepen the career experience. I'm sure that (optional) random career weather will be discussed again for pC3 as it was for pC2.

RacingAtHome
09-09-2017, 10:55
IMO we've improved a lot from pC1 to pC2 w.r.t. features that deepen the career experience. I'm sure that (optional) random career weather will be discussed again for pC3 as it was for pC2.

I'd say it will come with a change to the choosing of the weather system. Replacing it with a percentage system which decides the weather through the race would be more realistic and interesting.

breyzipp
09-09-2017, 11:00
IMO we've improved a lot from pC1 to pC2 w.r.t. features that deepen the career experience. I'm sure that (optional) random career weather will be discussed again for pC3 as it was for pC2.

Yeah I think Ian already mentioned on GT Planet that he wanted to improve for PC3 on the "1 hour weather slots".

RacingAtHome
09-09-2017, 11:13
Yeah I think Ian already mentioned on GT Planet that he wanted to improve for PC3 on the "1 hour weather slots".

And The_American stated an idea he preferred.

Personally I hate this "slots" business, too nerdy. I think for pC3 we'll just ask you to pick the race date and "% precipitation" and the game will figure out all the slots for you. It also gets you the variance you guys are asking for, bit of surprise element and also boosts the replay value for career events.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/q-a-with-slight-mad-studios-ian-bell-read-op.353715/page-19#post-11727523

APR193
09-09-2017, 12:04
I'm more disappointed in the race lengths (at least for what we've seen) than scripted weather. 20 minute races for GT4, and only one race a weekend is poor. A 20 minute race would be fine if it was followed by a 45 minute / 1 hour 'main race' worth more points.

This would all be solved with an offline custom championship.

Mattze
09-09-2017, 13:06
IMO we've improved a lot from pC1 to pC2 w.r.t. features that deepen the career experience.

Specific examples?

Roger Prynne
09-09-2017, 13:19
^ Did you not watch the video?

Mattze
09-09-2017, 13:37
Sure, but I'm searching for the "features that deepen the career experience". They worked hard to improve the UI and they introduce a new sort of invitationals with the factory driver events. Fine, I'm very comfortable with these changes. But if we speak about a deeper experience, I expect things like randomized weather, a motivating contract system and so on. In short, all the things that allow you to experience career mode in a more realistic manner. Unfortunately, I missed some of these features in the video. I don't want to say "Oh, that career mode is waste of time!", but there is much potential for improvements in PC3 career mode IMO.

Sankyo
09-09-2017, 14:21
there is much potential for improvements in PC3 career mode IMO.
And that's the thing. You can only do so much change/improvement before closing the code, wrapping it up and testing it. We all want everything, but that takes time unfortunately.

Bliman
09-09-2017, 15:09
That was always the fear for me, that the closer the release date the more disappointing news would come out.
I already was disappointed that the leaderboard would be only by class.
Now this about the weather.
Not a very big deal to me if it is implemented well, I don't understand to create such a great system with livetrack and then not use it to it's ability.
I hope that this isn't an excuse to show of it's livetrack features, you know to let it rain in almost every race just to show of the features of livetrack.
And just to say, to me career is very important because I don't play online, and PC1 career to me was confusing and a bit of a mess.
Hopefully there are no more of these unpleasant surprises.

Mattze
09-09-2017, 15:28
And that's the thing. You can only do so much change/improvement before closing the code, wrapping it up and testing it. We all want everything, but that takes time unfortunately.

That's absolutly correct. So the developer must choose which feature is important for the experience and which one is less. I don't wanna tell them what is important, but I think the forum gives a good overview of that.

In terms of scripted weather, I read a suggestion in another thread creating several scripted weather slots for each championship. So you have different weather in the next two consecutive seasons or something similar in order to increase replaybility. I think this would a good compromise.

Sankyo
09-09-2017, 16:52
That's absolutly correct. So the developer must choose which feature is important for the experience and which one is less. I don't wanna tell them what is important, but I think the forum gives a good overview of that.

In terms of scripted weather, I read a suggestion in another thread creating several scripted weather slots for each championship. So you have different weather in the next two consecutive seasons or something similar in order to increase replaybility. I think this would a good compromise.

For pC2 there will be no more changes (unless in a patch, but I don't think so). For pC3, all cards are still open so maybe (personal note: hopefully) a compromise is not necessary but we'll get (optional) real random weather.

Javaniceday
09-09-2017, 18:56
I really don't see the issue here...IRL they can predict the weather within minutes from it happening...
In pcars1 you knew at what moment it was going to start to rain...SMS eliminated that predictability by basically saying:" yes the weather is scripted so you know it's going to rain but you don't know when AND it could start to rain at a different moment when you run the race next time/season"

Konan, you can't predict the weather with a year's anticipation. The problem is you race at Donington and it rains, you know next year, next season, it's going to rain again. That's just poor game design.

Konan
09-09-2017, 19:10
It has more to do than just with the design (as explained before)
To each his own but when it was explained in the livestream my initional thought was:" oh nice!"
Baring in mind that it was announced ages ago that the weather would be scripted i thought that was a pleasant surprise...

Mad Al
09-09-2017, 20:02
Seeing as there are multiple regional championships plus international series for each of 29 disciplines, plus invitational races.. why not work your way through everything and then by the time you get back to running a second season of any of those.. you may have forgotten what the weather was the last time you tried an event..

The only season I repeated in PC1 was the one to get the achievement for defending a title twice.. other than that I skipped all over the place (and I actually ignored most invitationals, except a couple of long endurance races)



Yes it would have been nice to get subsequent seasons of a championship to just go with random, but realistic, weather (maybe for PC3).. but it's not like you don't get plenty of play options...

whip
09-09-2017, 20:04
its a massive step backwards imo, you can now just walk up to any team and tell the boss you're driving their car this year, no need to earn it or anything, it's totally immersion breaking for a "career"

the scripted weather is a total immersion killer and totally unrealistic too

RacingAtHome
09-09-2017, 20:09
its a massive step backwards imo, you can now just walk up to any team and tell the boss you're driving their car this year, no need to earn it or anything, it's totally immersion breaking for a "career"

the scripted weather is a total immersion killer and totally unrealistic too

Maybe people just prefer to know what car they're driving. When I picked my car, it was barely noticable about which model I had or even what it looked like. How is that immersion breaking? You're earning it by rising through the tiers.

Do you even like anything about this game?

whip
09-09-2017, 20:14
Do you even like anything about this game?

yes, but im capable of criticizing stuff that in my opinion are designed poorly, unlike some

RacingAtHome
09-09-2017, 20:16
yes, but im capable of criticizing stuff that in my opinion are designed poorly, unlike some

I would love to see some examples of this. I've seen plenty of people at SMS on here and GTP discuss things they don't like about the game.

honespc
09-09-2017, 20:28
Erm. You do realise that SMS are a business intended to make a profit, yes? If so, you wouldn't have made that comment. There are billions of people in the world and SMS have a realistic market of a million or 2 of that at most. Not all of those are hardcore race full length races and championships so SMS have to cater to them.I guess that was the main reason for making pc1 basically for wheel users. Pad was not optimized at all, and these users weren't the audience they were looking for as a business to make profit from, because wheelers made for that 1 or 2 million racing players you talk about, did they.

I did think the comment I made in absolute conciousness regardless I know the ins and outs of production games more or less than others, and still believe too many concessions are made in the name of the lazy in pc2.

Then It came again the scripted weather topic..., I knew they had announced it way before, but I really had faith they would reconsider such design decision dedicated only to show off the system. No problem in that of course, but heck at least give an alternate option for random or real weather too to increase career replay value by the hundred per cent at the very least.

Just disappointed with these weird design choices and the even more weird explanations given to excuse them by devs. Moving on

Fanapryde
09-09-2017, 20:49
yes, but im capable of criticizing stuff that in my opinion are designed poorly, unlike some

It will never be "perfect", but name me one sim that does a better job at that....

RacingAtHome
09-09-2017, 21:03
Then It came again the scripted weather topic..., I knew they had announced it way before, but I really had faith they would reconsider such design decision dedicated only to show off the system. No problem in that of course, but heck at least give an alternate option for random or real weather too to increase career replay value by the hundred per cent at the very least.

Just disappointed with these weird design choices and the even more weird explanations given to excuse them by devs. Moving on


See. There's your problem. It's the faith thing. :P

I dislike the standard weather but I don't expect it to change until we see a change of the weather Randomisation system. Currently, it's just a Random slot. What would need to be done is something like the CM games do it by being able to select a Variable option and have the game decide the weather for you. I agree that some of the explanations are weird though.

Javaniceday
09-09-2017, 21:05
Seeing as there are multiple regional championships plus international series for each of 29 disciplines, plus invitational races.. why not work your way through everything and then by the time you get back to running a second season of any of those.. you may have forgotten what the weather was the last time you tried an event..


This is the big problem with this. If you actually want a challenge, want AI that races you and takes advantage of all the improvements, you're not going to win every time. You just aren't. If you're winning everything, getting the championship every time, then you're not being challenged.

So if you race with a competitive AI, that challenges you, and you're fighting for wins, but oh look at that, you got 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd - you had a lot of fun, you didn't win the championship... but now you have to do it again. And now you know exactly what the weather will be. Nobody in this career cares about your accomplishment because you didn't "win". So you nerf the AI so you get 1st everytime, and you "win", and you move up.

What's the point?

Bealdor
09-09-2017, 21:10
This is the big problem with this. If you actually want a challenge, want AI that races you and takes advantage of all the improvements, you're not going to win every time. You just aren't. If you're winning everything, getting the championship every time, then you're not being challenged.

So if you race with a competitive AI, that challenges you, and you're fighting for wins, but oh look at that, you got 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd - you had a lot of fun, you didn't win the championship... but now you have to do it again. And now you know exactly what the weather will be. Nobody in this career cares about your accomplishment because you didn't "win". So you nerf the AI so you get 1st everytime, and you "win", and you move up.

What's the point?

You don't need to win the championship to advance to the next tier...

Javaniceday
09-09-2017, 21:11
null

RacingAtHome
09-09-2017, 21:11
This is the big problem with this. If you actually want a challenge, want AI that races you and takes advantage of all the improvements, you're not going to win every time. You just aren't. If you're winning everything, getting the championship every time, then you're not being challenged.

So if you race with a competitive AI, that challenges you, and you're fighting for wins, but oh look at that, you got 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd - you had a lot of fun, you didn't win the championship... but now you have to do it again. And now you know exactly what the weather will be. Nobody in this career cares about your accomplishment because you didn't "win". So you nerf the AI so you get 1st everytime, and you "win", and you move up.

What's the point?

To be honest, I wouldn't be disappointed at having to do it again if I had a season like that and lost. That would be great fun.

Javaniceday
09-09-2017, 21:12
You don't need to win the championship to advance to the next tier...

That's good. I'm glad to hear they made this change from pCARS1

hkraft300
10-09-2017, 01:01
Lol everyone jumping on the "scripted weather" train.
But did any of you notice:


...SMS eliminated that predictability by basically saying:" yes the weather is scripted so you know it's going to rain but you don't know when AND it could start to rain at a different moment when you run the race next time/season"

So scripted... so immersion breaking...
:hopelessness:

4dri3l
10-09-2017, 02:48
what i find the most interesting thing about this topic is that there only two kinds of people, in any forum and any kind of place that has a place to write your opinions, that defends the scripted weather system: sms devs and sms forum mods....

RacingAtHome
10-09-2017, 03:08
what i find the most interesting thing about this topic is that there only two kinds of people, in any forum and any kind of place that has a place to write your opinions, that defends the scripted weather system: sms devs and sms forum mods....

Nobody likes the scripted weather system and is defending it. What we're pointing out here is that's the system we have and we're not shouting the house down because we don't like it. Take your BS elsewhere please.

Purg
10-09-2017, 03:55
I think the bigger lost opportunity is a championship editor. Why can't I create a series with the cars I want, the tracks I want with the weather I want?

I don't really care about progressing as a race driver, I want to be able to create a championship specifically for what I want to drive. I'm hoping that an online championship will allow it in a roundabout way if it supports AI.

RoccoTTS
10-09-2017, 08:01
It will never be "perfect", but name me one sim that does a better job at that....

Agreed, at this moment i can't find any other sim racing game that has a career mode worth calling a CAREER mode. Most career modes in other games are just a collection of random chosen races without any contracts or seasons.

seb02
10-09-2017, 08:18
I think the bigger lost opportunity is a championship editor. Why can't I create a series with the cars I want, the tracks I want with the weather I want?

I don't really care about progressing as a race driver, I want to be able to create a championship specifically for what I want to drive. I'm hoping that an online championship will allow it in a roundabout way if it supports AI.

I totally agree with that point of view. Why offline players can not create series by choosing the cars they want, the circuits they want to date and time they want ....? I mean it's not like the online championship did not exist. I don't understand this decision not to offer the same feature to all players.
I also hope that the online championship will allow this by exclusively incorporating AI.

Regarding the scripted weather in career mode, I personally don't ask for the opportunity to choose the weather. But only that the latter is random from one season to the next. It does not rain every year in Monza ...

Konan
10-09-2017, 08:22
So they have to re-write everything for the one time it doesn't rain at Monza? :p

seb02
10-09-2017, 08:29
So they have to re-write everything for the one time it doesn't rain at Monza? :p

the Belgian humor, the best in the world:o

dodge33cymru
10-09-2017, 08:30
No, but it's not vaguely passable that it starts to rain at 3:10 at Monza every year.

The other thing being that, if it's anything like PCARS1, the pressing need to "show off" the changeable weather means an unrealistic number of events with massively varying conditions.

These are my fears; I hope to be proven wrong. Honestly though, identical weather season after season killed even the idea of career mode in the first game for me, I can't believe this won't have been changed/improved.

Konan
10-09-2017, 08:32
It won't start raining at the same time every year though...

mkstatto
10-09-2017, 10:30
My own two pence on this, whilst in the holy grail of racing games unscripted weather would be included, but I appreciate that design choices have to be made. Im much more looking forward to the improved calendar, manufacturer drives, selecting car and livery instead of focusing on what is a tiny part of the experience.

If your like me and most of the time chooses UK based series's, then in all likelihood your going to get rain alot of the time. I think it's great that it's variable in session this time around too.

I get it that some people don't want the whole race driver thing and want (heavily) an offline championship, for every one that one that theirs also a person who wants the race driver career.

All the career parts looks like a step up from PC1 and I for one am looking forward to getting my hands on it.

Rodgerzzz
10-09-2017, 10:36
To be fair we should be grateful we even have any proper weather in the game at all... Iracing, Assetto Corsa I'm looking right at you ;)

GenBrien
10-09-2017, 11:23
I just hope it wont rain at every event because they want to show their changing weather tech...

you know that a full weekend is possible without any cloud right?

Wait&see I guess at that point anyway

12 days!!!!

bmanic
10-09-2017, 13:47
It has more to do than just with the design (as explained before)
To each his own but when it was explained in the livestream my initional thought was:" oh nice!"
Baring in mind that it was announced ages ago that the weather would be scripted i thought that was a pleasant surprise...

So far I count only 1 opinion that mentions it as a positive (yours). The vast majority seems to prefer a random experience for each new season (and I can see why, because it's how reality works). I truly can not see anything positive in the scripted seasons/career. It makes no sense in my opinion (and I voiced my concerns and reasons very early on in WMD2). It is what it is..

Konan
10-09-2017, 13:51
I never said i preferred it though...i said i like what we got...big difference.
I prefer to eat steak but if all i've got is a hamburger than i'm pretty pleased with that...

bmanic
10-09-2017, 13:51
what i find the most interesting thing about this topic is that there only two kinds of people, in any forum and any kind of place that has a place to write your opinions, that defends the scripted weather system: sms devs and sms forum mods....

That's just BS. There are and were plenty of people against the scripted system all the way until the end, including some mods. The difference is that people who went through the WMD2 process KNOW that things can't always be had the way they want it due to technical limitations or just stubborn game developers having a different idea (and it's their right to do exactly the way they damn well please).

It is what it is. It's NOT a deal breaker or a huge issue, let's not even for a second pretend like this minor detail is a reason for not playing the game. There are a lot of GOOD improvements too that balance it all out.

bmanic
10-09-2017, 13:52
I never said i preferred it though...i said i like what we got...big difference.
I prefer to eat steak but if all i've got is a hamburger than i'm pretty pleased with that...

Oh.. okay, I misunderstood you then. I thought you liked the scripted system. :)

Konan
10-09-2017, 13:55
It is what it is. It's NOT a deal breaker or a huge issue, let's not even for a second pretend like this minor detail is a reason for not playing the game. There are a lot of GOOD improvements too that balance it all out.

THAT is exactly what i meant...:cool:

GenBrien
10-09-2017, 14:14
It's NOT a deal breaker or a huge issue, let's not even for a second pretend like this minor detail is a reason for not playing the game. There are a lot of GOOD improvements too that balance it all out
+1

do you think, on the PC version, that it would be somewhat doable to mod the career to have random(or preset) weather?

bmanic
10-09-2017, 14:18
I have no idea. I don't know anything about modding. :)

Konan
10-09-2017, 14:19
...me either...sorry

Mahjik
10-09-2017, 14:41
It is what it is. It's NOT a deal breaker or a huge issue, let's not even for a second pretend like this minor detail is a reason for not playing the game. There are a lot of GOOD improvements too that balance it all out.

QFT!

GTsimms
10-09-2017, 18:02
QFT!

^ Agree, the overall package is great this time! The positives definitely will outweigh the negatives by miles. There are somethings that WMD 2 Members suggested. That, we thought would have been a substantial improvement on the general gameplay side. Which did not get put into the game.

But, the experience will be very solid and wait for the ffb feel of the vehicles this time! So the negatives are not a deal breaker or game killer. WMD 3 opens up, I will be there! Because I knew, that SMS was moving in the correct direction with the first game.

Bliman
10-09-2017, 22:52
Agreed, at this moment i can't find any other sim racing game that has a career mode worth calling a CAREER mode. Most career modes in other games are just a collection of random chosen races without any contracts or seasons.

I agree and more to the point I love your avatar. Go Stoffel.
couldn't resist

transfix
10-09-2017, 23:42
Always wait to play the game yourself and make your own judgements. Project Cars 1 while not a fully fleshed out Career mode had me hesitant from listening to everyone complain until I sat down the first weekend to play and realized it was probably the most immersive and intense racing I've played in a long time. I spent so many hours playing career just to try the different disciplines and invitationals. Loved it and PCars 2 will be even better.

Konan
11-09-2017, 00:12
Always wait to play the game yourself and make your own judgements. Project Cars 1 while not a fully fleshed out Career mode had me hesitant from listening to everyone complain until I sat down the first weekend to play and realized it was probably the most immersive and intense racing I've played in a long time. I spent so many hours playing career just to try the different disciplines and invitationals. Loved it and PCars 2 will be even better.

+1
Had a blast with the career in Pcars1...

GTsimms
11-09-2017, 00:32
+1
Had a blast with the career in Pcars1...

What I will be playing through some of it tomorrow!

Fanapryde
11-09-2017, 06:39
+1
Had a blast with the career in Pcars1...
+ another 1
43 full seasons on PC and forgot how many when I was still on PS4...:)

Javaniceday
11-09-2017, 22:44
I've been thinking more about this... being able to move onto another tier by getting 2nd or 3rd in the championship makes a big difference. If you decide to go through that championship again, at least it'll be your own choice, and not being forced into it because the game won't reward you for a job well done.

It makes sense, you would get a chance to move up in your career if you get 2nd or 3rd. 4th place would probably be passed on.

So long as the competition is steady, so that the AI who gets podiums in one race, won't be back of the grid in other races randomly - so you'll have close competition for the titles.

Scripted weather is a pain but .. well, we'll see.

Joethe147
12-09-2017, 03:47
F1 games have done random weather since the 90s, whether it was Geoff Crammond's series or the games on PS1. I'm not looking for some advanced real-time weather system that scours the globe. Some sort of percentage chance of rain would do and having different percentages at different tracks. The Live Track 3.0 stuff sounded good but it sounds a bit of a waste when there's scripted weather in a career mode which a lot of people will play the game for.

I've no idea why iRacing and Assetto Corsa don't have other weather conditions and it's an utter joke that they don't but saying "But they don't have anything but dry track" isn't really on. A racing game with a career having scripted weather....just can't see real logic in it despite reading this entire thread.

And yes, for some people it could push them towards not buying it. We're not talking about a minor detail like the colour of the gloves. Variable weather can only ever add to the experience. A massive shame that something like that is how it is.

Konan
12-09-2017, 04:29
It's not just scripted weather though...
It's scripted weather but with variable timeslots (it will rain at another time next race/season) also it can rain at one part of the track but be dry at another...
So,it's scripted weather but with some twists :cool:
Maybe not as good as random weather but IMO the next best thing...combined with Livetrack 3.0 and a more immersive careerpath i think we are in for a treat...:D

honespc
12-09-2017, 08:16
A racing game with a career having scripted weather....just can't see real logic in it despite reading this entire thread.Showing off the system. It's that simple. They want us to play under some certain circumstances and make sure we don't miss them, such as racing at dusk with changing raining or snow; winter; autumn; and the etc many possibilities they thought we might miss when playing other modes.

It doesn't make sense I know, and more after having enjoyed more or less the same in pc1 career. It's just pure stubbornness when you come to know how devs are, but hey it's their game and their vision. They wanted it to be like this, so be it, but they could have certainly gave us an alternate random/real weather option once we beat campaign for the first time or something.

My concerns with the weather system scripted or not are the intermediate tyres. We still don't know whether they will have some use or not as opposed to how they behaved in pc1.

GenBrien
12-09-2017, 08:28
My concerns with the weather system scripted or not are the intermediate tyres. We still don't know whether they will have some use or not as opposed to how they behaved in pc1.

My concern is to know how better the ''fairness'' of AIs in changing weather is, compared to Pcars1
I dont really care if its raining ,but AIs better be slipping their arse as much as me when its dry and it starts to rain
if its fair then I guess I'll have fun, even if its scripted

Martin03
21-09-2017, 10:31
Seriously SMS, why do you choose scripted weather in career mode? It's the stupidest desision ever, one thing is the extremly boring part off the exact same weather every single season. But they always change the weather to much, so you never get a full rain race or anything like that because they keep changing the weather all the time because ''LOOK ATT OUR CHANGING WEATHER GRAPHIC!!!''...

Well, guess it's time to wait for sale and see if the same career mode mod that came to pCars is comming to pCars 2. For me pCars was all single player game and this makes career mode so boring...

Siberian Tiger
21-09-2017, 10:45
It was also a Topic in WMD...

I agree that i also would like to see Random Weather in Career, but as we played trough the Career in WMD we eliminated the most extrem ones... (Also the ones that changes the Weather much to fast)

So you will experience Races with ONLY Rain or ONLY Clouds...

And in SinglePlayer you have full Controll over the Weather (including Real Weather) so i think it's a good Compromise and doesn't hurt the Gameplay much...

mkzee
21-09-2017, 17:26
Resources, the great equalizer in game dev. All features promised and wish-listed are subject to resources. These games take money, money that is spent in relation to time, time that needs to be managed in order to maximize the available resources. I think in these smaller/lower funded teams making hard decisions is even more costly. They have to be weighed against what the developers think will make the most impact, and what is the best compromise given certain circumstances.

In larger games, you have more people working on more development branches... more features which are being tested and integrated back into the main branch. I think with a game like this, having scripted weather for this iteration is fine aslong as other game breaking bugs or inconsistencies are fixed. Im certain SMS have an idea of what will please the majority in terms of available features. And if not, at the end of the day it equates to bad management of resources and ultimately somebody could lose their job or SMS could even wind up closing down. Its stressful to weigh all of the possible myriads of game designs and settle on one.

Im not saying I condone it, I haven't tried it yet so i may not end up liking it, so I will tell other people I know that the experience was not good. Thats the risk you take with game design. So far form what Iv read this is a HUGE step up form pcars 1. Aslong as I feel and see that, I'll be able to bite my lip and live with scripted track conditions

Konan
21-09-2017, 19:02
What people seem to forget is :Yes,it will rain on that track next season if it did the last...but no,you won't know WHEN it will start to rain this time around...
Combine this with Livetrack 3.0 and the fact that some parts of the track might remain dry...
Seems like a good substitute for random weather to me...

Klondike68
21-09-2017, 19:18
Hello people.

Dident read the whole thread. Just want to know considering buying the game, but there is one thing that really anoyed me in P Cars 1. In carrer it was raiing in ever other race :-(

Just one question, in the Carrer mode are we forced to use the defuelt weather, or can we change it to our liking ?

Siberian Tiger
21-09-2017, 19:20
No change of Weather... But Rain Races have now much more life, thanks to LiveTrack 3.0...

Leper Messiah
21-09-2017, 19:25
I'm disappointed the scripted weather is back, but the changes to it should mean a lot more variation than in PCars. Mind you it was worse when a car with no wipers had a scripted wet race. Someone PLEASE tell me that's not a thing in PC2?!!

Siberian Tiger
21-09-2017, 19:35
It is a Thing - BUT! The Cars without Wipers this Time has a much lesser dense of Water Ripplet on the Screen, and the will flow away quicker...

Nestoche
22-09-2017, 03:34
Yea, very disappointing that the career mode of PC2 didn't actually changed much. The career mode needs more of a purpose, like an RPG lite and make it more like you are really living the life and struggles of a race driver. Similar to Codie's's F1 2017 game but with Teams/Driver and engine changes of a particular racing series you are competing with. Too me it's just a generic championship mode, needs more creativity. It's too bad they decided to update very little of this mode.

Attackmack
23-09-2017, 19:50
First off I wanna say im fully enjoying this fantastic game, I never got into pCars1 much since I felt it was too much tinkering to even get a decent playable experience.
pCars2 though, straight out of the box one of the most immersive racing experiences ive had! I just love it!


One of the things I heard they adress in a stream was that career mode wouldnt have random weather due to it being "unfair to the players" since their offline results and statistics are also tied to their online/community profile.
I want to disagree with this in its fullest.

Offline, anyone can lower the difficulty to minimum and change series length to short and just cakewalk through every available series, racking up the podiums and gathering all those trophies and whatnot.
If you allow this, you cannot claim in any way that the offline results are "fair" between players anyway. So not allowing random weather in career due to that argument is not even close to resonable.
I have somewhere around 100 race starts registered in my profile since ive used a custom race event for testing graphics settings. Is it fair then that my profile is now showing me as a quitter just because of this?

At the very least make it optional. I mainly play singleplayer and enjoy an unpredictable gameplay that I have to adapt and pay attention to.


So theres that, now im off back into the game for some more racing!

Attackmack
02-10-2017, 21:58
I know this have been mentioned more the once previously but maybe not as a simple and humble suggestion. And I hope this is where we post suggestions?

I suggest the allow an option for the offline career to have completely random and unpredictable weather. With certain reson of course when it comes to winter and snow but otherwise.
I remember hearing it mentioned that it would somehow be unfair to the players since offline stats are tracked in the profile but I cant see this any different from allowing us to lower difficulty or the length of a race/championship.
At least as an option for those of us who enjoy having to adapt to something on the fly.

So just a suggestion, allow it as an option for career along with the difficulty and what not!

F1Aussie
03-10-2017, 02:10
I would like the option of realistic weather with career, I might actually try it then rather than continually doing single offline races.

PervasiveFall8
03-10-2017, 02:53
So the weather in the career isn't realistic? I don't understand. Much against my judgement (not realistic to me) I had gt3 race on oscherschleben in snow/ice, it was sleeting or snowing but wet track at NZ track, Fuji done in very heavy rain one place I was dodging puddles (nurb gp I think)

But hey nothing realist by those medium cloud/overcast or clear days

ZulfoDK
03-10-2017, 03:54
So the weather in the career isn't realistic? I don't understand. Much against my judgement (not realistic to me) I had gt3 race on oscherschleben in snow/ice, it was sleeting or snowing but wet track at NZ track, Fuji done in very heavy rain one place I was dodging puddles (nurb gp I think)

But hey nothing realist by those medium cloud/overcast or clear days

He (and I for that matter) just want it to be random - and the weather is not random in career mode.

No matter how many times you restart a session in a race, the weather is always the same...

Moonfast
03-10-2017, 07:35
Or at least the possibillity to create custom offline championships with random weather. That would be amazing!

honespc
03-10-2017, 07:57
This was discussed way before release here publicly in the forum, and apparently lotta wmd members asked for this too, obviously.

It's a case of mere dev stubbornness. They decided to script weather as a mean to showcase it, giving beyond laughable reasons as to why not making it random, or at least linked to the great real weather feature present in pc, in order to increase career replay value by a 100%.

Many of us then proposed an alternate real/random weather option here in the forum. Then there was silence

Machinist90
03-10-2017, 07:58
never understood the decision to make career weather scripted,replayability is 0

F1Aussie
03-10-2017, 23:47
never understood the decision to make career weather scripted,replayability is 0

not just replayabilty but playability. I have not touched career mode purely because I cannot choose random or real weather.

seb02
04-10-2017, 06:42
Or at least the possibillity to create custom offline championships with random weather. That would be amazing!

I don't think the career is missed. However, do not have a custom offline championship, yes this is a missed opportunity IMO

Trippul G
04-10-2017, 12:58
I've done karts and Formula Rookie so far in career, and I honestly don't have a problem with the scripted weather. There are other issues that are currently holding career mode back and preventing it from being as enjoyable as it should be (wet weather performance of AI and AI inconsistency in general, Formula Rookie having better grip in dry conditions with rain tires instead of slicks, career events taking place in snow with no tires giving adequate grip). But once these issues are ironed out, career mode will be a lot of fun. So what if the weather is scripted? I originally thought it was a bad idea, but I realize now that, unless you're planning on running the same series back to back, over and over again, once you've finished your Indycar championship, you're probably not going to remember what the weather was way back at the second round of your Ginetta Jr. Championship, and even if you do, weather transitions are randomized, so you won't know exactly when it's going to change over.

Would I have preferred completely random weather (appropriate to the region and season of course)? Yes. But is scripted weather a big enough issue to warrant skipping career mode altogether? Not even close.