PDA

View Full Version : FFB problems



aleph99
22-09-2017, 05:38
I bought PC1 for PC and Xbox and shelved both after a while because I couldn't get FFB right. Nevertheless, I pre-ordered PC2 for the Xbox on the assumption that this time, having acquired some experience and without the pressure of deadlines, they would get it right. Well, I was wrong. The game looks great, the interface is much more friendly, but, again, it is undrivable.

Instead of going into the grizzly details, the video below shows what happens with the car at a standstill with the engine off. It gets worse when I drive; the wheel shakes so much that I can't drive any car in a straight line. By the way, this is a vanilla Logitech G920 that I have been using without problems with Forza 6, F1 2017 and Assetto Corsa on the Xbox, as well as with other racing games in my computer. And yes, I tried tweaking all FFB parameters, from 0 to 100, as well as steering sensitivity and deadzone. The only way to stop this shaking is to turn FFB off.

As much as I wanted to enjoy it this time, the game is, once again, unplayable. Would the guys at SMS be willing to offer me a refund? If not, does anybody know if it is possible to get a refund from Microsoft?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTivqZblL9w

oscarolim
22-09-2017, 06:05
Video is unavailable.

And yes, contact Microsoft's customer support and they should guide you through the process.

Ladislav.Toth
22-09-2017, 07:29
Hi,

I have the same problem with my Logitech g920. Game is unplayable :( If i have turn off engine, wheel is shaking. I pre race menu, wheel automatic rotate to right or left side.

TenthDan
22-09-2017, 07:30
Did you try going into controller settings and calibrate the wheel?

Ladislav.Toth
22-09-2017, 08:23
Did you try going into controller settings and calibrate the wheel?

Yes, i tried more times, but problem continue

Ronald0505
22-09-2017, 08:53
Sounds familiar, I started a thread yesterday about my Thrustmaster TX. Also undrivable.

Siberian Tiger
22-09-2017, 08:55
Please Guys make a Video with the Telemetry HUD on. (And the FFB Widget on the lower left).

1st Video with the Issue. (Note which Settings, for example Custom Race - xx AI / Car / Track etc.)
2nd Video without the Issue. (Note which Settings, for example Custom Race - xx AI / Car Track etc.) - Same Car / Track as Video 1.

Then we can forward it directly to the Devs...

Sampo
22-09-2017, 09:21
What happens if you turn the FFB Volume to 30?

fishaac
22-09-2017, 11:32
I had a similar issue, I only had an hour last night to play with it but i ended up with "raw" preset , FF down to 52 and FX upto 60. Felt quite good

Psychomatrix
22-09-2017, 11:39
Same issue and get no right feeling for the middle. The wheel did no go to middle. And no feedback when I brake and tires begin to block. Physics seems great but FFB isn't. I'm using G920 too. And when I start a test session the wheel turns from alone to the right. Please fix that I would be a shame if the FFB destroy the complete experience.

Ronald0505
22-09-2017, 12:49
Here are 2 video's with the wheel issues: Go to recordings there you can find 2 video's

https://account.xbox.com/nl-NL/Profile?xr=mebarnav

1. Video without the issue. In this video there is a big diffrence in how I can keep the car straight, no crazy movements on the wheel and the FFB telemetry is stable now.
Custom Race - 10 AI - Ferrari 488 GT3 - Hockenheim


2. Video with the issue. Here you can clearly see I'm having trouble to keep the car in a straight line. This is undrivable. My wheel is shaking so badly en the respons of steering is very bad.
Custom Race - 29 AI - Ferrari 488 GT3 - Hockenheim (Track and car doesn't matter, the issue is with every car, only AI seems to be the issue)

Thrustmaster TX, T3PA Pedals, TH8a shifter

Flavour: Informative
Gain: 70
Volume: 30
Tone: 40
FX:45
Menu Spring Strength: 0.05

Version of the game is: V1.0.0.13.0842

1st gen Xbox One (500GB)
Physical copy of PC2

Siberian Tiger
22-09-2017, 12:50
Thanks, forwarded it...

Ronald0505
22-09-2017, 12:54
Thanks, forwarded it...

Thank you :D

aleph99
22-09-2017, 15:05
Video is unavailable.

And yes, contact Microsoft's customer support and they should guide you through the process.

Fixed now. Sorry, noob mistake at YouTube (the video was private).

aleph99
22-09-2017, 15:41
I will try to make a video with more information, but in my case there are no preconditions; the wheel starts to shake whenever I get into any car/track, even for a test drive. I recalibrated several times and tried all combinations I could think of, but the only way to stop it is to move the Gain slider to around 20, thus killing FFB altogether.

Furthermore, wheel response is sluggish (as can be seen in the same video: when the physical wheel is shaking to the right, the on-screen wheel is still going left). Even without FFB, the cars are undriveable. Mind you, this is the same wheel I use without any problems - and with out-of-the-box settings - to play Forza 6, F1 2017 and AC on the Xbox.

PC2 is much better than PC1: graphics are fluid, all design flaws of the earlier version have been fixed, you no longer have to be going back and forth between the track and the menus to make even the slightest change, the overall game is much more intelligent. (To be completely frank here, I did expect SMS to offer previous buyers at least a discount after the abhorrent version of PC1 for the Xbox, but never mind; this is indeed a significant improvement.) However, at this point I no longer have the patience to enter the FFB tweaking contest all over again, and I have lost all confidence in SMS' capacity to fix things. All I want is my money back.

wyldanimal
22-09-2017, 16:01
I bought PC1 for PC and Xbox and shelved both after a while because I couldn't get FFB right. Nevertheless, I pre-ordered PC2 for the Xbox on the assumption that this time, having acquired some experience and without the pressure of deadlines, they would get it right. Well, I was wrong. The game looks great, the interface is much more friendly, but, again, it is undrivable.

Instead of going into the grizzly details, the video below shows what happens with the car at a standstill with the engine off. It gets worse when I drive; the wheel shakes so much that I can't drive any car in a straight line. By the way, this is a vanilla Logitech G920 that I have been using without problems with Forza 6, F1 2017 and Assetto Corsa on the Xbox, as well as with other racing games in my computer. And yes, I tried tweaking all FFB parameters, from 0 to 100, as well as steering sensitivity and deadzone. The only way to stop this shaking is to turn FFB off.

As much as I wanted to enjoy it this time, the game is, once again, unplayable. Would the guys at SMS be willing to offer me a refund? If not, does anybody know if it is possible to get a refund from Microsoft?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTivqZblL9w

I saw your video.
That to me looks Like Normal FFB function.

You don't have your Hands on the Wheel to Feel the FFB push on your Hand.
So when you Let go of the Wheel,
It rotates to one side, then it has to Correct and rotate back the other way.
Again, your hands are not there to resist the push, so it begins this Oscillation back and Forth.

in pCars 1, you could reduce the gain to tune this out at the center.
But if you hit a bump, and let go of the wheel, you got the same oscillation.

That is How FFB is supposed to work.
Push against your hands so You Feel it.
But if there are no Hands on the Wheel, It will over Shoot, and then Correct.

You have to keep your Hands on the Wheel, with enough grip so you Feel / resist the FFB movement.

Pitseleh
22-09-2017, 16:05
I saw your video.
That to me looks Like Normal FFB function.



No, it's not.

The wheel shakes left to right incredibly hard even at very low speed on straight lines.
It's the only game that has this horrible bug.

Ladislav.Toth
22-09-2017, 16:08
I saw your video.
That to me looks Like Normal FFB function.

You don't have your Hands on the Wheel to Feel the FFB push on your Hand.
So when you Let go of the Wheel,
It rotates to one side, then it has to Correct and rotate back the other way.
Again, your hands are not there to resist the push, so it begins this Oscillation back and Forth.

in pCars 1, you could reduce the gain to tune this out at the center.
But if you hit a bump, and let go of the wheel, you got the same oscillation.

That is How FFB is supposed to work.
Push against your hands so You Feel it.
But if there are no Hands on the Wheel, It will over Shoot, and then Correct.

You have to keep your Hands on the Wheel, with enough grip so you Feel / resist the FFB movement.

Hi bro, my g920 do this with turned off engine, i do not mean that this is normal FFB function. My real car is dont shake wheel if is engine off :)

Sankyo
22-09-2017, 16:08
No, it's not.

The wheel shakes left to right incredibly hard even at very low speed on straight lines.
It's the only game that has this horrible bug.


With our without your hands on the wheel?

Pitseleh
22-09-2017, 16:13
With our without your hands on the wheel?

With AND Witout. This has nothing to do with having our hands on the wheel.

Froggystomper
22-09-2017, 16:16
I saw your video.
That to me looks Like Normal FFB function.

You don't have your Hands on the Wheel to Feel the FFB push on your Hand.
So when you Let go of the Wheel,
It rotates to one side, then it has to Correct and rotate back the other way.
Again, your hands are not there to resist the push, so it begins this Oscillation back and Forth.

in pCars 1, you could reduce the gain to tune this out at the center.
But if you hit a bump, and let go of the wheel, you got the same oscillation.

That is How FFB is supposed to work.
Push against your hands so You Feel it.
But if there are no Hands on the Wheel, It will over Shoot, and then Correct.

You have to keep your Hands on the Wheel, with enough grip so you Feel / resist the FFB movement.

Absolute nonsense.

Pitseleh
22-09-2017, 16:28
No, he's right. I'm not having any issues with my TX on this game. None.


We're talking Logitech G920.

aleph99
22-09-2017, 16:28
Of course it is not normal! It shakes all the time, driving or parked, with engine on or off. When driving on a straight line, you can feel the car swerving left & right and sometimes even hear the tires squealing. If you take your hands off the wheel briefly at low speed, you crash.

On second thought, since the problem is still there even with FFB off, I would guess that the problem is not with FFB itself, but with the way the game is reading input from the wheel. It understands that the driver is swerving left & right and acts accordingly, sending the proper FFB signals. It seems that somehow the game is receiving an oscillating signal from the wheel even when it is perfectly still.

Perhaps this is also why the car seems sluggish and unresponsive. In real life, if you keep turning your wheel left & right constantly while driving, you will lose traction and turning ability.

Pitseleh
22-09-2017, 16:42
Found this video on Youtube.
This is the exact same problem we have here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC2dOFq8IXQ

MXR SMILER
22-09-2017, 17:00
I had the same issue on same wheel and I found that reducing FX to 0 almost eliminated the 'wobble' for me. Still working on perfecting the settings after many hours ........ hope you find a fix if this doesn't help.

aleph99
22-09-2017, 18:16
I had the same issue on same wheel and I found that reducing FX to 0 almost eliminated the 'wobble' for me. Still working on perfecting the settings after many hours ........ hope you find a fix if this doesn't help.

I think wheel wobbling is the consequence, not the cause. The program seems to be reading a variable input even when the wheel is perfectly still. Even if you eliminate physical wobbling, car handling is unstable and sluggish because the program apparently is receiving micro-oscillations from the wheel. That's a plus for the simulation side, which reflects what would happen in real life, but unfortunately it does not solve the problem. I may be wrong here, but I think FFB tweaking will not eliminate the root cause, which goes deeper.

Psychomatrix
22-09-2017, 18:22
The thing starting again. Whe reporting issues and people say it's all normal. The wheel moving in the menus and when I go to track it rotate from full right or left to straight. The FFB is broken same as the X axis calibration was broken on PC1 at the release.
I think when nobody have the combo Xbox/920 he can't say nothing if it's OK. All what I wanna know if will that be fixed or not. The wheel works perfect on assetto corsa for example and all other games. So it must be the game

Siberian Tiger
22-09-2017, 18:29
It will be fixed...
WMD had no Chance of Testing Console Builds, that was outsourced to professional Q&A Teams...

We are gathering all Possible Infos and Forward it to the Devs..

oscarolim
22-09-2017, 19:48
It will be fixed...
WMD had no Chance of Testing Console Builds, that was outsourced to professional Q&A Teams...

We are gathering all Possible Infos and Forward it to the Devs..

For PC3 just give some free keys to a few members of this forum, and not only we will do a better job, it will be for free (well the cost of a game copy, but still).

Roger Prynne
22-09-2017, 19:58
Yeah hopefully next time we might be able to do something like that because whoever tested the consoles was crap IMO.

Methadone Man
22-09-2017, 20:19
That to me looks Like Normal FFB function.

[snip]
You have to keep your Hands on the Wheel, with enough grip so you Feel / resist the FFB movement.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you. This is why:

1. The problem occurs for me when the car is at a complete stop. No car in real life does this.

2. The problem occurs when driving slowly (20 mph) straight down the road. No car in real life does this.

3. Yes, you can keep your hands on the wheel and constantly fight it, if you want. But that's really annoying and tedious. And it's not natural. Driving straight on a flat tarmac should give zero (or close to zero) lateral force on the front car tires, and therefore not register a fast, jerking movement to the left or right which needs immediate and forceful counter force from your hands.

4. NONE of the other games I've played on my Xbox (Codemasters F1 2016, Codemasters Dirt Rally, Project Cars 1, Forza Horizon 3, Forza 7 demo) do this. They all have proper force feedback and do not violently jerk back and forth while driving straight.

He's not talking about letting his hands off the wheel while driving over bump or the dirt or striking an object. He is at a standstill and it does this. It happens when driving slowly with the wheel in perfect neutral position. It happens regardless if we calibrate. Regardless of any FF settings. This is NOT how FF is supposed to work, at least not according to 99% of the Xbox population. IMHO.

Methadone Man
22-09-2017, 20:22
With AND Witout. This has nothing to do with having our hands on the wheel.

Yes. It only exacerbates the shaking when you take your hands off the wheel. Putting your hands on the wheel simply temporarily stops the shaking for a split second because you manually "counter-steer" the jerk. Then a half second later it jerks again and you have to counter-steer it again. It's an incredibly effective hand and forearm workout. I highly recommend this game and Logitech wheel for those guys who are having problems at the gym with their grip strength. Not so recommended for xbox gamers who want to enjoy a racing game with their wheel.

aleph99
22-09-2017, 21:15
It will be fixed...
WMD had no Chance of Testing Console Builds, that was outsourced to professional Q&A Teams...

We are gathering all Possible Infos and Forward it to the Devs..

This is an amazing piece of information. You mean that, after all the flak the developers got for their awful port of Project Cars 1 to the Xbox, nobody ever got to test this version with the wheel that is probably owned by the majority of Xbox users?

Methadone Man
22-09-2017, 21:31
It will be fixed...
WMD had no Chance of Testing Console Builds, that was outsourced to professional Q&A Teams...

We are gathering all Possible Infos and Forward it to the Devs..

If this is true (and for now I will believe it is), then I really appreciate it. I would really like to play the game and the upcoming DLC.

But part of me thinks that the Devs only responded because several of us had to make an issue out of it. I know it seems like we're being drama queens (think Varuca Salt), but usually it takes some squeaking to get that wheel greased (pun intended). The repercussions of user reviews and feedback on social media is necessary to get a response most of the time when it comes to game developers. Not singling SlightyMad Studios out here.

After all, we did hand over our money and we were delivered a game with a glaring error that SHOULD have been caught before release day. This game is not ready for release on Xbox. It works awesome on PC. I've watched their streams. It's a great game on PC. And I am jealous.

On the bright side, 99% of the game seems to be in good condition. The legwork has already been done. Should be relatively easy to get this patched up, right? One week?

What am I saying? Of course they will have this thing ironed out before Forza 7 arrives. I'm just gonna kick back, watch some netflix and wait for the patch which is coming soon. I'd love to be able to make some Youtube videos of my races.

Siberian Tiger
22-09-2017, 21:35
This is an amazing piece of information. You mean that, after all the flak the developers got for their awful port of Project Cars 1 to the Xbox, nobody ever got to test this version with the wheel that is probably owned by the majority of Xbox users?

No, the Professional Q&A Partners did also have tested the Game on Console with Wheels.
BUT on PC we had about 500 Active Members who tested daily. On Console i assume there are only weekly or monthly builds, which are beeing tested. (Testing Games on Console require very expensive DEV Kit's)

SMS was going trough Hell and Back to allow Console Testing also to the WMD Users, but Sony and MS didn't allowed it...

Methadone Man
22-09-2017, 21:39
WMD users = Weapons of Mass Destruction users?

Siberian Tiger
22-09-2017, 22:11
World of Mass Development (The Yellow ones (pCars1) and the Green ones (pCars2))

Sam1266
23-09-2017, 00:54
I have the same problem. :(

T Ghost
23-09-2017, 02:30
Also have the same problem with Logitech G920 on Xbox One S. Unplayable. It is a shame the Xbox version of the game was released in this state. I bought a physical copy, is there any way to get a refund?

gotdirt410sprintcar
23-09-2017, 03:01
Also have the same problem with Logitech G920 on Xbox One S. Unplayable. It is a shame the Xbox version of the game was released in this state. I bought a physical copy, is there any way to get a refund?

Not to sound like a prick. But first a racing game is not easy to make, second give it a chance and third trade it in on Forza that makes no sense day 1 people. Sms has done a amazing job give it a chance

Boondock
23-09-2017, 03:52
Not to sound like a prick. But first a racing game is not easy to make, second give it a chance and third trade it in on Forza that makes no sense day 1 people. Sms has done a amazing job give it a chance

Well if you purchased a copy of PC2 from EB Games, you have 5 days left to return the game for a full refund. Seeing as Forza comes out in 6 days, what do you expect us to do?

Any update takes a minimum of a week to pass the Microsoft approval process, so there is no hope of this widespread bug being fixed before its main competitor is released.

I would be fuming if i was SMS.

Methadone Man
23-09-2017, 03:57
Not to sound like a prick. But first a racing game is not easy to make, second give it a chance and third trade it in on Forza that makes no sense day 1 people. Sms has done a amazing job give it a chance

Why are you defending the developer? Granted, no game is perfect. But he is right. The game cannot be played with a wheel. They marketed the game as a driving sim which supports major driving wheels. Logitech g920 is either first or second top selling Xbox driving wheel. The first PC game explicitly supported it. And PC2 automatically recognizes the g920 which proves the game designers had the wheel in mind when making the game. They specifically designed their game to work with a wheel. And yet the final game clearly does not work with the wheel. It's obvious within 10 seconds of driving your first race. It's repeatable with all g920 users. This is not a case of post marketing adverse events that could not be foreseen during product testing. This is a colossal failure TO TEST in the first place.

The game designers lied. They falsely advertised their game. Plain and simple.

Yes they did get a lot right. But they royally screwed up on a basic component of the code. The fact that they can actually make a game with this level of graphics and physics and immersion only makes me hold them to a higher standard. Why would they go through all the time and energy of laser scanning real life tracks but not assign one person to spend one hour testing the game on one Xbox driving wheel? It's so obvious to me in hindsight. But this is their specialty. They SHOULD have planned for this in foresight.

gotdirt410sprintcar
23-09-2017, 04:01
I think its your system aka xbone not sure about Logitech on ps4 I have a t300. Seems xbone has more issues than any other system idk. Just have faith all I can say good luck too all of you

Boondock
23-09-2017, 04:11
I think its your system aka xbone not sure about Logitech on ps4 I have a t300. Seems xbone has more issues than any other system idk. Just have faith all I can say good luck too all of you
The FFB settings of the xbox build that SMS sent to Microsoft for approval are screwed.

The ps4 uses the g29 model, as far as im aware the g920 is working/playable in the least on the PC build of PC2.

Methadone Man
23-09-2017, 04:12
I think its your system aka xbone not sure about Logitech on ps4 I have a t300. Seems xbone has more issues than any other system idk. Just have faith all I can say good luck too all of you

I was watching a project Cars 2 stream today with a PS4 player on his Logitech g29. This is the same hardware as our Logitech g920, but with PS4 buttons. Anyway, the streamer seemed to be doing fine with his wheel. I didn't see any of the issues we are having. So the problem may be isolated to Xbox

FORTKNOXFIVE
23-09-2017, 04:33
I have the same issues with the G920. The wheel starts shaking when driving straight. The Thing is that when you start a testing session everything is fine, no shaking. if u do an race an add some opponents it starts again. Then i tried to start a race without training and qualifying but with an pitstop through the race, i thought i fixed it, but as soon as i drove into the pits the weird shaking was back. So it is definitly something with the game. Every g920 owner can try this, do an testsession then a race. And if there are the same results wich i described here, the issue must be within the game

aleph99
23-09-2017, 05:13
I have the same issues with the G920. The wheel starts shaking when driving straight. The Thing is that when you start a testing session everything is fine, no shaking. if u do an race an add some opponents it starts again. Then i tried to start a race without training and qualifying but with an pitstop through the race, i thought i fixed it, but as soon as i drove into the pits the weird shaking was back. So it is definitly something with the game. Every g920 owner can try this, do an testsession then a race. And if there are the same results wich i described here, the issue must be within the game

Are you using the G920 with a Xbox or a PC? I am asking because your badge indicates a PC. In my case, there are no preconditions: the wheel shakes no matter what.

FORTKNOXFIVE
23-09-2017, 05:47
Are you using the G920 with a Xbox or a PC? I am asking because your badge indicates a PC. In my case, there are no preconditions: the wheel shakes no matter what.
Im using it with a xbox.

Well thats weird.. I just hope that this gets fixed as soon as possible. I dont really care about the minor bugs like graphics etc but the Force Feedback needs to work properly - For everyone

Alicedee
23-09-2017, 06:13
Hi I have the same g920 problem the wheel shaking on straight line no matter witch ffb settings I try I have test every thing for hours nothing fix the problem I have test a lot of cars and tracks the shaking is on every combination please sms fix this fast I want to like the game but for now it's unplayable for me

Boondock
23-09-2017, 06:42
The FFB settings of the xbox build that SMS sent to Microsoft for approval are screwed.

The ps4 uses the g29 model, as far as im aware the g920 is working/playable in the least on the PC build of PC2.

EDIT: i had no problems until i restarted the practice session, since then just constant wheel wobble that is only curbed and eventually stopped by changing the FFB to 30 or lower, which sort of ruins the whole point of the wheel.

Blackers722
23-09-2017, 08:39
I get the wheel shake or small vibrations from my wheel in the menus and then it goes HAM when i drive on any surface with any car. I have played with all the settings and cant seem to find anything to fix it. Its insane - i hope a fix comes soon.

Gloman75
23-09-2017, 12:13
I have a Logitech G920 and have the same problem the wheel continually jerks from side to side, even when the car is stationary. Hope this can be fixed quickly as otherwise it looks a great game which I would like to start playing but it is currently unplayable with this problem using the wheel.

Pitseleh
23-09-2017, 12:55
Sms has done a amazing job

Hahahahaha....

Anyway, back to serious things, here is my try to provide you guys with a decent setting while everyone's doing SMS's job :

LOGITECH G920 XBOX ONE

Configuration:
Steering sensitivity : 45
Damper saturation: 60

FFB:
Informative
35
90
50
65
0.05

Give it a shot...

aleph99
23-09-2017, 15:17
Hahahahaha....

Anyway, back to serious things, here is my try to provide you guys with a decent setting while everyone's doing SMS's job

Thanks, will give it a try.

Boondock
23-09-2017, 15:21
Hahahahaha....

Anyway, back to serious things, here is my try to provide you guys with a decent setting while everyone's doing SMS's job :

LOGITECH G920 XBOX ONE

Configuration:
Steering sensitivity : 45
Damper saturation: 60

FFB:
Informative
35
90
50
65
0.05

Give it a shot...

Nothing, still shakes the same as having FFB set to 30 and everything else default.

Sankyo
23-09-2017, 15:22
We're looking into the wheel and FFB issues guys, hang in there...

Pitseleh
23-09-2017, 15:25
Nothing, still shakes the same as having FFB set to 30 and everything else default.

hmpf... I found it helped a little corecting the shakes.
At least it doesn't move like crazy standing still anymore.

Try RAW instead of Informative maybe ;)

Boondock
23-09-2017, 15:31
We're looking into the wheel and FFB issues guys, hang in there...

Well i'm not going anywhere..... after seeing the treacherous EA stuff, you guys have my support for now.

Just funny that the game seems to mainly have issues on the platforms which have a direct financial interest in PC2 failing, thus giving their own flagship racing IP's an advantage.

"Adjusts tinfoil hat"

fishaac
23-09-2017, 16:09
The canned FFB is definitely screwed, but im having an immense time in Ginetta juniors championship now that I've found a decent setting, try this guys;

Flavour - raw
Gain - 50
vol - 30 (may need to turn up or down slightly on different cars)
Tone - 50
Fx - 40

mkstatto
23-09-2017, 16:30
Well i'm not going anywhere..... after seeing the treacherous EA stuff, you guys have my support for now.

Just funny that the game seems to mainly have issues on the platforms which have a direct financial interest in PC2 failing, thus giving their own flagship racing IP's an advantage.

"Adjusts tinfoil hat"

It strikes me that for the second version in a row, that they have outsourced the Q.A for consoles again.

aleph99
23-09-2017, 16:47
It strikes me that for the second version in a row, that they have outsourced the Q.A for consoles again.

Apparently it makes sense from a financial standpoint. But, after the colossal disaster that was the first version, it would also be sensible to double-check that before greenlighting the launch. Somebody was asleep at the wheel...

Boondock
23-09-2017, 16:53
Apparently it makes sense from a financial standpoint. But, after the colossal disaster that was the first version, it would also be sensible to double-check that before greenlighting the launch. Somebody was asleep at the wheel...
Well they sure as hell weren't sleeping on a g920 wheel, would result in massive head trauma from the constant shaking.

What wheel should i buy, to sleep as sound as the Q&A team SMS hired?

T Ghost
23-09-2017, 17:00
Nothing, still shakes the same as having FFB set to 30 and everything else default.

Only way to make is playable with G920 on Xbone S for me is to set FFB gain to 10 or less. Practically removes all FFB from the game, but it is playable. Not enjoyable, but at least playable. At this point, knowing SMS is "working on it", until they find a resolution, test it, submit and get approved by MS and get an update live, it will be AT LEAST a month. I DEEPLY regret sinking $60 in this title this week. So many other option this, next and the following weeks, PC2 will only be playable with G920 several months from now, when game price drops. Well, learned a lesson with SMS/WMD/BN racing sim games: avoid. Wether they don't have technical competence, budget or project management competence, is clear this team of dev-publisher cannot deliver a finished game at release date.

oscarolim
23-09-2017, 17:01
No, the Professional Q&A Partners did also have tested the Game on Console with Wheels.
BUT on PC we had about 500 Active Members who tested daily. On Console i assume there are only weekly or monthly builds, which are beeing tested. (Testing Games on Console require very expensive DEV Kit's)

SMS was going trough Hell and Back to allow Console Testing also to the WMD Users, but Sony and MS didn't allowed it...

I hope SMS knows that since end of last year (or beginning of this one?) every retail xbox one can be turned into a dev kit. They are pretty cheap these days.
http://support.xbox.com/en-GB/xbox-one/apps/developer-mode-activation-app-faq

Sankyo
23-09-2017, 17:04
I hope SMS knows that since end of last year (or beginning of this one?) every retail xbox one can be turned into a dev kit. They are pretty cheap these days.
http://support.xbox.com/en-GB/xbox-one/apps/developer-mode-activation-app-faq
Not sure if this would down well with Microsoft if they find out that SMS got their own QA squad going outside MS?

aleph99
23-09-2017, 17:46
Not sure if this would down well with Microsoft if they find out that SMS got their own QA squad going outside MS?

I don't get it, Remco. Isn't that precisely the idea? If you develop & test your game or app using Developer mode and submit it to your own QA before going gold, that saves both users and MS a lot of hassle.

Sankyo
23-09-2017, 17:48
I don't get it, Remco. Isn't that precisely the idea? If you develop & test your game or app using Developer mode and submit it to your own QA before going gold, that saves both users and MS a lot of hassle.

I'm only asking whether having people outside your development organisation (i.e. WMD members) switch their XBoxes developer mode and test the game. Seems like something Microsoft wouldn't agree with.

Methadone Man
23-09-2017, 18:06
Skip to minute 3 mark to see how the wheel performs in this live action video of Earthquake Simulator 2017

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-p7g2TXwW52Y3lValNlUEduQWs

major sunscreen
23-09-2017, 18:30
I have a g920 in PC1 and had this problem. Adjusting the ffb settings in the master menu fixed it. Can't remember which parameter but Jack spades tweaker files have the details.

aleph99
23-09-2017, 18:38
Skip to minute 3 mark to see how the wheel performs in this live action video of Earthquake Simulator 2017

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-p7g2TXwW52Y3lValNlUEduQWs

You can also notice in this video that there is a visually perceptible and unusually large lag between physical and virtual wheel movement, which of course also affects car handling. Of course it is just a guess, but I would say the game is too busy either sending or receiving oscillation data from the wheel. I would bet on the receiving side, because the car is unstable and sluggish on straights even with FFB off, like it would happen in real life if you were continuously turning the wheel left and right while driving. I think the issue is on the way the game is receiving and interpreting signals from the wheel, not the other way around. Something in the code is making it interpret a stable signal as wildly fluctuating. The wobbling would be just a consequence of this - which, if confirmed, would mean the FFB is actually working as expected...

Methadone Man
23-09-2017, 18:48
I have a g920 in PC1 and had this problem. Adjusting the ffb settings in the master menu fixed it. Can't remember which parameter but Jack spades tweaker files have the details.

Apples and Oranges. The settings menu for Force Feedback are drastically different for Project Cars 2 on the Xbox than they were for Project Cars 1. The Force Feedback has been greatly simplified with only 4 or 5 things you can change. Several of us have tried multiple permutations of these settings, but with no real success.

The only FFB setting which stops the shaking is to turn the Volume setting of FFB to zero, which turns off FFB entirely. Then the g920 wheel stops shaking and you are driving a wheel with zero resistance and feedback. A phenomenal use for a 300 dollar piece of equipment, plus I can drive with one finger. You ever seen those "extra stamina condoms" sold by Trojan? They work because they coat the inside with Lidocaine so you don't feel anything. That's what driving the g920 with zero FFB is like. #SimRacing

Methadone Man
23-09-2017, 18:50
You can also notice in this video that there is a visually perceptible and unusually large lag between physical and virtual wheel movement, which of course also affects car handling. Of course it is just a guess, but I would say the game is too busy either sending or receiving oscillation data from the wheel. I would bet on the receiving side, because the car is unstable and sluggish on straights even with FFB off, like it would happen in real life if you were continuously turning the wheel left and right while driving. I think the issue is on the way the game is receiving and interpreting signals from the wheel, not the other way around. Something in the code is making it interpret a stable signal as wildly fluctuating. The wobbling would be just a consequence of this - which, if confirmed, would mean the FFB is actually working as expected...

Gives me an idea... shot in the dark here, but can anyone try turning off the visual steering wheel in game (cockpit view) and see if that remedies the gaming wheel issue? (I am not on my Xbox ATM and cannot test it now.)

oscarolim
23-09-2017, 18:58
I'm only asking whether having people outside your development organisation (i.e. WMD members) switch their XBoxes developer mode and test the game. Seems like something Microsoft wouldn't agree with.

On the link nothing specifies against that.
However your original point was that dev kits were expensive - maybe on Sony domain they are, but on Microsoft's they are as cheap as a standard console.
Even if SMS doesn't want to use outsiders, 10 consoles would represent a 2000 investment, to test in-house. Would go a long way than releasing a product where certain issues are found within minutes of starting a game.

Ian said that once they reach the 800k mark on sales, they break even. Make that a million and use the extra 200k copies to get hardware to test in-house.

aleph99
23-09-2017, 18:59
You ever seen those "extra stamina condoms" sold by Trojan? They work because they coat the inside with Lidocaine so you don't feel anything. That's what driving the g920 with zero FFB is like.

A classic case of applying some dampening to avoid feedback saturation.


Gives me an idea... shot in the dark here, but can anyone try turning off the visual steering wheel in game (cockpit view) and see if that remedies the gaming wheel issue? (I am not on my Xbox ATM and cannot test it now.)

Will try, but wouldn't bet the house on that.

Taking the wildly-speculating-thingie one step ahead, perhaps they are applying some amplification to low signals in order to enhance the FFB effect at slow speed. Since no wheel sends perfectly stable digital signals, particularly low-cost ones, if overdone and/or unfiltered this could be leading to the wobbling effect. It would also explain why it is happening to some extent with most wheels and even with controllers.

BobTheDog
23-09-2017, 19:09
With my G920 I have just had to turn the force feedback off in order to play. If a real cars seeing wheel was acting this way you would stop to see if a wheel was loose and then ring for recovery :)

major sunscreen
23-09-2017, 20:03
Apples and Oranges. The settings menu for Force Feedback are drastically different for Project Cars 2 on the Xbox than they were for Project Cars 1. The Force Feedback has been greatly simplified with only 4 or 5 things you can change. Several of us have tried multiple permutations of these settings, but with no real success.

The only FFB setting which stops the shaking is to turn the Volume setting of FFB to zero, which turns off FFB entirely. Then the g920 wheel stops shaking and you are driving a wheel with zero resistance and feedback. A phenomenal use for a 300 dollar piece of equipment, plus I can drive with one finger. You ever seen those "extra stamina condoms" sold by Trojan? They work because they coat the inside with Lidocaine so you don't feel anything. That's what driving the g920 with zero FFB is like. #SimRacing

Ahh not good. I haven't got PC2 yet so that doesn't sound too good at all!! I shall watch this space..

aleph99
23-09-2017, 20:24
I think I may have said the same a couple of years ago, but the guys at SMS could still learn something from the way the Reiza crew (developers of Automobilista) deals with issues. Of course they make mistakes - everybody does - but they are quick to acknowledge them: "Sorry guys, my bad, we forgot to include parameter X in the latest build, a fix is in the works, in the meantime you can do this and that to keep playing."

We are now approaching the third day of mudslinging and wild speculation. I saw that Ian Bell was roaming around the forum earlier today. Perhaps he or someone else could come forward and tell us (a) if the root issue has been identified or not; (b) what corrections are being considered; and (c) when we should expect that. That makes all the difference between having people on your side or on the opposite side of the fence (or, as Roosevelt would put it, outside the tent pissing in or inside the tent pissing out).

ShneebnaMRR108
23-09-2017, 20:40
It will be fixed...
WMD had no Chance of Testing Console Builds, that was outsourced to professional Q&A Teams...

We are gathering all Possible Infos and Forward it to the Devs..

"professional" is defined as to having the ability to exhibit a certain level of knowledge of a particular subject. Maybe next time let the qualified forum members check the Q/A. We're the one's actually doing it now for free. And even now, after a not so good checking process, don't you think after all this time with all these users giving tons of info on FFB and wheel operations that WMD would actually have learned what to do. Sort of mind boggling to say the least.

ShneebnaMRR108
23-09-2017, 21:16
Maybe this info can help in the corrective action/fault analysis. 911 GT3 R at BH GP
G920 in RAW
50
32
75
28
0
Damper Saturation 25
Not too terribly bad, but still some chattering while driving. And then this "odd symptom appears in the pit garage while sitting still". "The wheel starts turning slowly on its own until it stops at the end of the travel." If you don't happen to take notice of this, you pull out and run into the wall. After I noted it the second time, and watched it slowly rotating, I rotated it back to center, then it very slowly started to loose the energy and tendency to rotate on its own. Almost like there was some residual signal still coming into the wheel from somewhere, and then it was slowly discharging itself away. This should be enough detail defect info to get an engineer with a schematic and a test set-up thinking about the input paths and what may be cross-talking, bleeding, or some kind of over-saturation, capacitor dis-charge, etc..... what-ever. I like the FFB histogram, but I miss the waveform display. It was like monitoring your wheel motor on an o-scope.

Methadone Man
23-09-2017, 21:28
Maybe this info can help in the corrective action/fault analysis.
G920 in RAW
66
27
88
28
0
Not too terribly bad, but still some chattering while driving. And then this "odd symptom appears in the pit garage while sitting still". "The wheel starts turning slowly on its own until it stops at the end of the travel." If you don't happen to take notice of this, you pull out and run into the wall. After I noted it the second time, and watched it slowly rotating, I rotated it back to center, then it very slowly started to loose the energy and tendency to rotate on its own. Almost like there was some residual signal still coming into the wheel from somewhere, and then it was slowly discharging itself away. This should be enough detail defect info to get an engineer with a schematic and a test set-up thinking about the input paths and what may be cross-talking, bleeding, or some kind of over-saturation, capacitor dis-charge, etc..... what-ever. I like the FFB histogram, but I miss the waveform display. It was like monitoring your wheel motor on an o-scope.

Yes, my Logitech G920 wheel does this too. It very slowly turns in one direction sometimes while I am in the pit. I can turn it back to center with no or verly little resistance. It's the pit poltergeist .

ShneebnaMRR108
23-09-2017, 21:36
I used to work at a company who makes sophisticated motor control systems. I wish I had the money to buy a wheel, tear it open, and get out all the gear to analyze the signals coming into the motors while sitting in the pits. Send a check in a cab and I'll get started right away, LOL.

ESS Roadhog
24-09-2017, 04:15
XB1 - Fanatec CSW v2 rev316 -
Raw (default settings in game 100, 50, 50, etc.)
Wheel . . .
Sens Auto
FF Auto or 100
SHO Off
Abs 80
Dri off
BRKF 50

Very first drive- F40 Comp practice/test at Long Beach. No issues with feedback, RAW felt really good.

Created a custom 1hr race (only change), all F40s (identical) at Long Beach, with practice/qualifying/race sessions. No issues with feedback.

Created career driver, selected Formula Rookie North America. Completed series (with some race do-overs). No issues with feedback.

Ran test/practice session with Z4 GT3 at Road America- Changed in game steering deadzone from 1 to 0. No issues with session or feedback.

Created a custom 1hr race, GT3 class, increased AI count to 30, changed session times (15/20/60) . . . and . . .
- Wheel drifted off center in pits before even selecting drive
- center had weird notchy feeling
- after getting manual control and entering track wheel began clipping out with knocking sound while accel-going straight.
- car is basically undriveable
- jumped back to pits/checked settings/recaliburated wheel
- same ffb issues on track (clipping/knocking/pulling in one direction)
- exited custom race
- changed cars (to Caddy GT3)/restarted race with same settings/same outcome
- exited race/exited PC2/hard reboot of XB1 and restart of wheel
- started practice session with Z4 at RedBull Ring- No feedback issue.
- exited/created customer race at Redbull Ring- AI count 30 (increased- remaining from before) - ffb clipping and knocking excessively.

I'm going to try and reset all custom race settings to default tonight to see if that clears up the ffb issues. I'm also going to attempt to rerun the F40 race at Long Beach. If that does not clear up the ffb issues, I will likely delete the game including saved items and reload. From there I will attempt testing/custom races across many tracks without making any AI count changes to see if ffb holds up.

Regardless, something is broken. Multiple tracks/multiple cars attempted in custom races- ffb broken (my very first F40 race with default AI count was the only clean one). Testing/practice sessions - no issues.

ESS Roadhog
24-09-2017, 05:55
Defaulted the custom lobby settings and was able to run a race only session and then all three sessions with the Z4 @ Road America with my CSW v2 and in game RAW settings listed above. Might try and raise the field by one car. Note- starting on lap 7 of 10 I was starting to get excessive fx type feedback (osc with knocking) at the uphill after turn 5 and the bottom of the uphill after the last turn on the main straight. Front tires had reached 2/3 life, but the ffb seemed really excessive.

aleph99
24-09-2017, 19:11
Defaulted the custom lobby settings and was able to run a race only session and then all three sessions with the Z4 @ Road America with my CSW v2 and in game RAW settings listed above. Might try and raise the field by one car. Note- starting on lap 7 of 10 I was starting to get excessive fx type feedback (osc with knocking) at the uphill after turn 5 and the bottom of the uphill after the last turn on the main straight. Front tires had reached 2/3 life, but the ffb seemed really excessive.

Very thorough job!

Trendnet
24-09-2017, 21:35
Yeah hopefully next time we might be able to do something like that because whoever tested the consoles was crap IMO.

Y my thoughts to.. How can you even release a game with so many errors and bugs! My Career have been deleted 2 times.. And when i try do some online races it takes about 30 min just to get into a lobby because you are getting DC'ed all the time! Not to mention all the screen tearing and frame drops to. This game is almost unplayable. If i could i would def refund this! And maybe thats a big maybe buy it again on sale in 2 years again when all the bugs/errors have been corrected!

aleph99
24-09-2017, 21:49
There is a thread discussing similar issues with Xbox controllers, so my original assumption (couple of kids in the basement with Xbox controllers) is void and the Million Dollar Question has just become more interesting: what did the "Professional QA Teams" test the game with?

ShneebnaMRR108
29-09-2017, 19:45
I had to adjust to this just to drive without frustrations. Waiting for an Fx fix for the G920.
G920 - XBOX
90
30
40
0
0
Damper 18
241321

Disease
30-09-2017, 00:53
I'm only asking whether having people outside your development organisation (i.e. WMD members) switch their XBoxes developer mode and test the game. Seems like something Microsoft wouldn't agree with.

could the Xbox Game Preview program be a possibility for a way get the game widely tested prior to release without going behind Microsoft?

wolfstoker
30-09-2017, 03:13
I had to adjust to this just to drive without frustrations. Waiting for an Fx fix for the G920.
G920 - XBOX
90
30
40
0
0
Damper 18
241321

I did a similar thing but bottom 2 are 15 and 10