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t4yl012
22-09-2017, 05:44
My minimum shift time controller settings are set to 0 and whatever car I drive over half of my downshifts are not registered. Impossible to downshift the car at high revs making cornering pretty difficult. Its like the game has a gearbox safety option but I cannot find it?

For example if I'm at a standstill all my downshifts will register, but if I go flat out 100% gas and attempt to downshift nothing will happen till I let off the gas & start slowing down.

This cannot be normal?

Morgan Henstridge
22-09-2017, 05:49
There is protection on Downshifting that can not be disabled.

Sankyo
22-09-2017, 05:51
In real cars you cannot shift down infinitely fast nor with the throttle applied and the drivetrain under stress, so the game doesn't allow it either. And I think there's also an over-rev protection so that you cannot bounce off the rev limiter when downshifting, but I'm not 100% sure (could also be that you can but you'll destroy your engine quickly with it).

diegonomade
22-09-2017, 16:17
i can not believe there is not an option to disable that protection :mad:

Siberian Tiger
22-09-2017, 16:26
It's because TimeTrial and also eSport Fairness... I was abused, no way you can shift like a Machinegun in Real Life...

frostbytes89
22-09-2017, 17:17
It's because TimeTrial and also eSport Fairness... I was abused, no way you can shift like a Machinegun in Real Life...

I see this theory thrown around a lot. Is this the reason SMS gave or is it speculation? Reason I ask is because using manual clutch completely bypasses this downshift protection feature. It seems more like a handicap to me akin to automatic shifting. Meaning you're being encouraged to use manual clutch for better times. I don't think that the argument that this is for time trial fairness is a valid one because of that.

AitchPattern
22-09-2017, 18:48
I've done some extensive testing regarding the H pattern issues reported on here and Reddit and will post my results in the hope the team and work On a fix.

Current H pattern issues noted:
1 - Some H pattern vehicles work without any requirement of clutch.
2 - Capri / BMW/ Ferrari H pattern vehicles don't allow for quick/short shifting.

I can confirm the bugs mentioned above are indeed present on my version of the game (PC)

If I take the road cars, such as the EVO etc and drive them without using a clutch, they work fine and they are quicker than using the clutch (even though manual clutch is enabled)

Capri / BMW / Ferrari H pattern vehicles are not allowing quick shift or short shifting, when using a manual H pattern shifter with clutch enabled.

I can confirm this issue too.
Using the same vehicles in PCars 1 / AC / RRRE etc do not have this issue.
The issue is only present in PCars 2.

The Capri etc for example are displaying an animation that shows the user moving from 1st to neutral, then from neutral to 2nd.

However, this animation takes around 1 second or so to complete and runs long after the physical gear has been engaged (on the actual H shifter) which takes less than .5 of a second.

For example, after quick/short shifting from X to Y (let's say 1st to 2nd, the animation is still playing while the manual H shifter is already located in 2nd gear.

Therefore when the user lifts his foot from the clutch (s he has engaged the fear) the gear is actually missed (even though the the gear is technically engaged) because the animation is still running on the hud, showing the trail of 1st to neutral, then neutral to 2nd.

You can recreate this by trying to quick shift the Capri etc and trying to shift quickly (race like) through the gears aggressively. The animation of the HUD is lagging behind that actual (physical) shift and stops the physical shift from taking effect. Meaning the Capri can NOT be raced hard, but can only be "Sunday driven".

Some users mentioned that this was a limitation of the vehicle. Unfortunately I would disagree based on my owning one of the vehicles affected, and the fact that all of these vehicles work perfectly fine in every other dim in exsistance, including project cars 1.

It looks like manual clutch isn't working properly when using manual H pattern vehicles.

The gears should jump directly to the gear selected, not via some slow "step" like animation process. You can basically build a huge delay by changing gear rapidly and watching the poor animation try to keep up... problem is, the car is listening to the HUD and ignoring the physical gear shifters location!

This is recreatable simply by trying to race hard and fast and quick shift manually (H) in the Capri etc, you will see a slow animation and the car will mis-shift unless you shift very slowly and not race like.

The other vehicles that allow you change without a clutch also are not within factory spec, as I own an EVO and can confirm that it does not allow me to manually change gear up and down without engaging the clutch while driving at over 100mph etc.

Settings Tested:
Damage - Full and Off
Manual Gear Box
Auto Clutch - Off and On
Auto Start - Off and On

PC version of PCars using Fanatec CSS 1.5

Hopefully the H pattern vehicles can be looked into, as this is seriously game breaking for H pattern vehicles as they simply can not be raced.

Currently H pattern with clutch can only be Sunday driven, and can not be raced hard, fast and are not supporting/allowing the user to quick or short shift like they should, as demonstrated in PCars 1, real life and all other sims currently in existence.

Hopefully this can be resolved shortly as thrashing the Capri / BMW and older cars in Manual H was a USP of PCars 1 and PCars 2.

finagle69
22-09-2017, 19:07
Seconded.

AitchPattern
22-09-2017, 19:46
I see this theory thrown around a lot. Is this the reason SMS gave or is it speculation? Reason I ask is because using manual clutch completely bypasses this downshift protection feature. It seems more like a handicap to me akin to automatic shifting. Meaning you're being encouraged to use manual clutch for better times. I don't think that the argument that this is for time trial fairness is a valid one because of that.

Depending on vehicle ;)
As it seems that H pattern, Manual vehicles don't work correctly with a clutch either. The Capri etc are all experiencing issues when shifting manually, while other vehicles (road) are allowing users to change gears without the clutch, even with manual clutch enabled.

I think there is a serious drive train issue the team should look at by testing the following:

1 - Capri etc (fast, short, quick shifting not possible due to animation process chain lag)

2 - Evo etc (able to drive an entire race without dipping the clutch once) Up and down shifts, using a H pattern shifter (but ignoring the clutch, even though is enabled in settings) work perfectly fine (I won the race) :)

3 - Downshifting on Merc is slower than actual vehicle IRL...

Lots to check here regarding these gearing issues, it's affecting a lot of people in many different ways and I think they may all be related in some way.

Synystr
22-09-2017, 20:03
It feels as if there's a slight delay between when the h-pattern is in gear and when the car is in gear. Like maybe 1/4 - 1/2 a second.

I've never had any issue in shifting in any sim (AMS, RF2, PCARS1, Dirt Rally) unless I made an obvious mistake, until now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B1Wq1Ld38U

No "suspected shift delay" (or what feels like it).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb7GECY_-Ew

Also, I haven't had any problems with down shifting with the H-Pattern, but I've noticed, along with some of the people I race with, that when using the paddles, the speed with which you downshift is limited.

Synystr
22-09-2017, 20:08
Listen to how fast Senna shifts for example.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJdox6nf-ZE

frostbytes89
22-09-2017, 20:13
Depending on vehicle ;)
As it seems that H pattern, Manual vehicles don't work correctly with a clutch either. The Capri etc are all experiencing issues when shifting manually, while other vehicles (road) are allowing users to change gears without the clutch, even with manual clutch enabled.

I think there is a serious drive train issue the team should look at by testing the following:

1 - Capri etc (fast, short, quick shifting not possible due to animation process chain lag)

2 - Evo etc (able to drive an entire race without dipping the clutch once) Up and down shifts, using a H pattern shifter (but ignoring the clutch, even though is enabled in settings) work perfectly fine (I won the race) :)

3 - Downshifting on Merc is slower than actual vehicle IRL...

Lots to check here regarding these gearing issues, it's affecting a lot of people in many different ways and I think they may all be related in some way.


Interesting. I know I threw a bunch of cars into private testing that had various gear boxes. Ones with sequential, ones with H box, etc and noticed that at 100 mph I could go from 6th to 1st just by putting the clutch in. As far as the clutch not working, are you sure? You can put a normal gear box into a gear without the clutch in real life. It will just sound terrible. Like.. It will burn into your soul. And then you'll need a new transmission.

I noticed that I could shift without pressing the clutch but I do hear the grinding noise. I wish they simulated damage with that, though.

ramm21
22-09-2017, 20:14
I noticed a couple of road cars, Si and 1M, shifting can be done without engaging clutch at all even with manual clutch selected. No penalty for just bypassing the clutch.

Started career and the Formula Ford is different. If you try to shift without pressing the clutch, the game "forces" it into gear and the car stutters like it should.

TylerDurden4321
22-09-2017, 21:15
I got my pCARS1 telemetry app going to look at my mis-shifting in pCARS2:

https://abload.de/img/mis-shiftingjnbn9.png


This is the finishing straight at Spa in the Lotus 98T. I did three up-shifts, each one a little faster than the last - easy to spot from the length of the throttle and clutch engagement durations. My last shift was interpreted as a mis-shift - you can see that the RPMs went to 100% instead of down and into gear. Each one quicker, ok? What stayed the same though is the time spend in neutral gear, even though I really threw the shifter faster each time as well and I have pretty short throw configuration set in the TH8A-shifter calibration tool.


My guess is there is a minimum "throw" time set in each car in pCARS and that's just not how this works. It's also way too long for this high-tech F1 clutch from the Lotus 98T.
Some cars work flawlessly like that Skyline from the Sugu community challenge that is up right now for example. Did 15 laps, not a single mis-shift!

ermo
22-09-2017, 21:35
If you know the minimum shifting time for a certain car/gearbox (and can provide a credible source to back up your assertion), by all means post it here and odds are it will be taken under consideration for a future patch. :)

The driveline code actually simulates the synchros and the time it takes to rev-match the input and output shafts.

TylerDurden4321
22-09-2017, 22:04
No other sim out there has shift time this long. From iRacing, to rFactor 2, Assetto Corsa ...not even Forza. And they all do eSport as well. Nobody complains either, but lots of people would complain if they can't shift a car in a sim as fast as they can their car in real life.

In the telemetry above you can see that the pCARS2 Lotus 98T is set between 200 and 250ms of minimum shift time. In the video Synystr provided of Senna (arguably not in the same car, but the tech should be very very similar, it's only 2 years from one another), go 51-55 seconds into the video. I would guess the 3rd of his up-shifts at under 100ms.
I hope we don't have to provide examples/proof for every car this is happening in, because it's not just this one!
I had it in the Lotus 49 too and that car didn't even need to be clutched when up-shifting in real life (down-shifting is a bit trickier). The non-clutching also works in pCARS2 as it should, but it still forces a too long delay.

Really hope someone goes through all the cars and gets this delay way down. There is no other sim I have problems shifting in (well, except GT6 and GTS, Polyphony force 100% clutch throw when putting in a gear and don't simulate a bite point somewhere along the way).

Edit: It seems the Lotus 98T didn't have H-pattern, but rather a manual sequential dogbox that usually was clutched but could also be forced into gear as the dog-gears allow this, suffer a higher wear from this though as does the whole driveline. The shift times should be as fast as you can throw the lever, when happens to the load on the engine, driveline and tires is something else though.

Edit2:

The driveline code actually simulates the synchros and the time it takes to rev-match the input and output shafts.
I wouldn't mind wheel spin and micro damage to clutch, gearbox and engine accumulating over time for persistently too fast shifting, but just not taking the gear is the wrong solution - especially since there is no sim racing shifter hardware that could refuse to be shifted into gear as feedback from the game.
[but in general, the shift times are too slow, I had issues in 4 cars, one newer one as well. In the Lotus 98T it's a pretty extreme case though]

Synystr
22-09-2017, 23:04
Yes thanks you for confirming I wasn't insane.

van73410
23-09-2017, 02:33
Same issue on manual cluth with shifter fanatec sq 1.5,csp v3,tspc racer.

If i select automatic cluth with manual command this bug disappeared.

And sequential is also active :confused:

AitchPattern
23-09-2017, 10:23
Interesting. I know I threw a bunch of cars into private testing that had various gear boxes. Ones with sequential, ones with H box, etc and noticed that at 100 mph I could go from 6th to 1st just by putting the clutch in. As far as the clutch not working, are you sure? You can put a normal gear box into a gear without the clutch in real life. It will just sound terrible. Like.. It will burn into your soul. And then you'll need a new transmission.

I noticed that I could shift without pressing the clutch but I do hear the grinding noise. I wish they simulated damage with that, though.

The clutch is working, perhaps what I am saying is lost in translation (voice to text).
Basically, if you take a H pattern manual car (in this case the Capri)
Take it to a long straight, and race it like you were qualifying.
Shift gears as fast as you can phsycally change them, go for the fastest time.
You will see that the car won't change when you do, it has a delay and it will miss shift almost every time.

For example, the only way I can drive the Capri, is to lower my gear changes from around 0.2s to around 2 seconds per shift. Having to slowly engage the clutch, slowly move the gear from 1st to 2nd slowly disengage the clutch. Like a Sunday drive.

After testing, what I noticed was...
Using the physical H patter to change gears, the animation on the HUD is exactly the same as pressing the flappy paddles.

Basically. It seems like the game is not differentiating between the physical input of gear changes, compared to someone using flappy paddles. Therefore someone using a H pattern is locked to changing at the same rate as those who don't have a H and are just using flappy paddles.

Again, it's not like this on this exact car in any of the other sims or PCars1

Invincible
23-09-2017, 10:31
It's not optimal yet but I think they there will be optimisations to these issues in future patches. It has been introduced because several leagues and esport teams demanded it to prevent abusing the previous system by shifting several years at once without any delay.

AitchPattern
23-09-2017, 10:35
Same issue on manual cluth with shifter fanatec sq 1.5,csp v3,tspc racer.

If i select automatic cluth with manual command this bug disappeared.

And sequential is also active :confused:

Just tested this and it's a yes/no situation for me :)
It kind of helps, but brings other issues with other cars (along with no clutch requirement) too :-/ what is going?

For me all H pattern vehicles are broken. The Group 5 vehicles are undrivable for me as I'm a quick shifter, so they can be driven but only if the gear shift is slow (which isn't done in racing) it looks like they have mapped the same input method (that the game recognises) from the physical H pattern, to that of the flappy paddles (or a non H pattern user would use to change gear in a H pattern vehicle).

What I noticed was that if I use my flappy paddles or a physical button to change gears, the game does this animation that displays me engaging 1st then moving to neutral, then from neutral to 2nd. This was also present in PCars 1 and was designed to slow down users from trying to use flappy paddles on H pattern cars (rightly so).

However, when using an actual shifter, the game seems to still follow that exact input chain. It doesn't seem to differentiate between the 2. So when I select 2nd gear on the physical shifter. The game just reads that I pressed a button (gear 2) and then begins the animation and gear change process chain. Which is incorrect!

It should switch directly to 2nd gear as the clutch is engaged and I slipped through neutral at less that .2 of a second.

The H pattern vehicles are almost all entirely broken in 1way or another.

This also makes sense as to why h patter users can change gear without a clutch. It's because the looks like the game uses the same method of gear changing as that of a controller / flappy paddle etc as Mentioned above.

I hope they can fix this soon.


Edit/update
After further testing it's a No/No situation.
Changing to auto clutch actually demonstrates that they are indeed using the same input chain for both.

A good test for this is the flowing.
Auto Clutch - Enable
Manual - Yes

Now select the Capri and just park up.
Now change gear as quick as you possible can, as fast as humanly possible she sing your H pattern (flick from 1st to 2nd like a race driver would on a pole lap!)

You will notice that while your shifter is indeed sitting in 2nd gear, the animation on the HUD (and the actual transmission) will be still moving from N to 2nd and lagging behind.

Now do the same test but with MANUAL clutch enabled.
You will see the exact same HUD animation, and in fact, the transmission takes EXACTLY the same time to change gear and completely ignores the actual users physical Input location/time etc.

This proves that the vehicles are moving from gear to gear following an input chain dictated by the game, not by the user.

Basically it's physically impossible for anyone to be quicker at shifting than anyone else, the vehicles are locked at a minimum manual gear change time, dictated by the automatic animation/input chain, irrespective of setting.

This is wrong, as I'm sure a professional driver could likely change gear quicker than myself (or my gran) but here in PCars 2 no one can change quicker than anyone else as we are all restricted by the games method of automatically moving the transmission from 1st to 2nd etc and is NOT physically mapping the transmission to the actual physical H pattern shifter (like all other sims including PCars 1)

You can test this yourself under both conditions above...

Agh, this is a real shame, I'm really disappointed Ģ62.99 and I can't currently drive the vehicles I drove in PCars 1?


Edit:
Linking to this thread as it also comfirms the issues with video and telemetry.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?51699-Weird-gear-shifting-issues

MaximusN
23-09-2017, 10:36
It's not optimal yet but I think they there will be optimisations to these issues in future patches. It has been introduced because several leagues and esport teams demanded it to prevent abusing the previous system by shifting several years at once without any delay.

I really hate racing being treated like a game... I'd wish this could be turned off because it takes me out of my concentration(like oh yeah the game doesn't want me to do this). It would be different if it was a RL gearbox software thing(with flappy paddles). Why bore people that wouldn't touch esports with a pole with their rules? If it's for leagues and esports make it optional per server and, force it in TT if you will(not going there either because it has nothing to do with fun and/or realism anyway).

I'm fine with the small bugs PC2 has for me so far, but conscious choices like this make me (slightly) mad. ;)

Invincible
23-09-2017, 10:51
I really hate racing being treated like a game... I'd wish this could be turned off because it takes me out of my concentration(like oh yeah the game doesn't want me to do this). It would be different if it was a RL gearbox software thing(with flappy paddles). Why bore people that wouldn't touch esports with a pole with their rules? If it's for leagues and esports make it optional per server and, force it in TT if you will(not going there either because it has nothing to do with fun and/or realism anyway).

I'm fine with the small bugs PC2 has for me so far, but conscious choices like this make me (slightly) mad. ;)

As I've said, it needs some tweaking still. In the best case, you shouldn't even really notice it unless you're trying to downshift like a machine gun. But I'll admit, that's not where it is at the moment.

MaximusN
23-09-2017, 11:38
But I'll admit, that's not where it is at the moment.

Agreed :) But still if you are at low enough revs you should be able to downshift like a machine gun in a flappy paddle car(they shift in tenths of seconds). If I'm doing first gear speed in sixth I should be able to run down the gears about as fast as I can click the paddle. It should only prevent me from shifting when the lower gear speed sends me over the red line. Even if I end up at red line I should be able to shift. And in an H-Shift pattern car I should ALWAYS be able to do this, but I should end up with engine damage if the lower gear overrevs my engine. My real car would let me, so should any sim. Let esports and leagues have their rules, but don't bother me with them.

braveflea
23-09-2017, 11:55
This problem for me makes this version of PC unplayable competitively at this point.

TylerDurden4321
23-09-2017, 12:18
I wanted to add another point:
I tried the Lotus 38 today, it only has 2 gears and a probably much higher engine inertia than the Lotus 49, so of course syncing gears should take longer. However, how the game handles this is just wrong.
When I shift out of first gear, I basically have to wait until the now unloaded engine revvs fall down to maybe 5500rpm before I can shift into second gear - going into second gear faster leads to a mis-shift.

That this is just timing-based (minimum time spend in neutral / between shifting out and into) leads to this:
When I'm in already in neutral, I can revv up the engine with 100% throttle input to the limit, engage clutch and hammer in the second gear ...and the engine boggs down but the gear is in - no mis-shift. IRL this would might damage the car, but it's realistic. What's not realistic is this artificial "sync" time that doesn't actually have anything to do with rev-matching/syncing, it's just a "minimum time between gears".


I adore the FFB and slip in this game, I can live with the AI issues, but the shifting problems annoy me so unbelievably much. It's like splitting the list of cars that I personally want to drive in this game in half.

Synystr
23-09-2017, 12:33
I adore the FFB and slip in this game, I can live with the AI issues, but the shifting problems annoy me so unbelievably much. It's like splitting the list of cars that I personally want to drive in this game in half.

This. My league put forward a time trial challenge in the 98T, but it was so frustrating to have this artificial barrier in place. All the geared F1 and sports cars are basically off the table now.

AitchPattern
23-09-2017, 12:40
Seconded...

I reported this here (on the Capri / Group 5 vehicles) and there are other users with the same issue and other posts in the PC support section.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?51675-H-Pattern-Vehicles-issues

It seems that the time to change gear (manual clutch and physical H) is exactly the same as the time to change gear when set to automatic clutch and manual or automatic gears.

As if the game is Ignoring our actual physical input and using an arbitrary coded gear change command (the same command used for those without a H and or clutch)

It's made the manual H vehicles almost impossible to drive without physically slowing down your gear changes (which goes against all racing instinct) :)

Great to see this posted here and videos / telemetry above.
I hope this is investigated soon by the team, as my group 5 races are now a non starter in Pcars 2 :(

3800racingfool
23-09-2017, 13:21
Yea I'll also say this issue's stuck a nerve with me as well. I understand if it's something that just needs some tweaking and refinement but it can't stay the way it is right now. It's next to impossible to predict the timings every time without being able to actually feel the transmission itself (FFB shifters anyone?) and, in my case, it's literally lead to wrecks.

AitchPattern
23-09-2017, 13:34
Yea I'll also say this issue's stuck a nerve with me as well. I understand if it's something that just needs some tweaking and refinement but it can't stay the way it is right now. It's next to impossible to predict the timings every time without being able to actually feel the transmission itself (FFB shifters anyone?) and, in my case, it's literally lead to wrecks.

Yea it's a doozie alright :)

But I t kind of negates the use of a H patterns shifter at all, really.

As It would mean that we need to memorise the exact gear change timings of each gear change, for each and every car in the game car, then we would need to sync our physical imput, to match the icons on the screen.

This is not guitar hero SMS :)

The game should indeed see how fast I move my physical shifter, from shifter point A to shifter point B and move the transmission accordingly.

This is not an issue on any other game, or sim on the market (including PCars 1) and to be honest I have never owned a car that can't change gear as fast as I can. My EVO allows me to change as fast my arms will allow and I'm guessing if my road car car, a specially designed race car should be at least as fast as my road car?

Bl00dyMary
23-09-2017, 14:34
especially rally cross becomes undriveable without fast downshift... really looking forword to get better option

Coanda
23-09-2017, 16:08
following on from @AitchPattern - A car i know very well from other sims is the Mercedes C9. A problem I have noticed on up-shifts is whilst applying the clutch the engine RPM will rapidly drop from 9k to idle in under one second making it from hard to synchronize a smooth & fast gear change. Because of this sometimes gears are not selected. This does not seem right to me.

Some racing manuals can change gears without engaging the clutch however that requires perfect rev matching & h&t or t&t. Greg Murphy in the V8SC use to do it as he was a a left foot braker. Rare in that series & not overly recommended due to putting more strain on gearboxes.

Coanda
23-09-2017, 16:10
following on from @AitchPattern - A car i know very well from other sims is the Mercedes C9. A problem I have noticed on up-shifts is whilst applying the clutch the engine RPM will rapidly drop from 9k to idle in under one second making it from hard to synchronize a smooth & fast gear change. Because of this sometimes gears are not selected. This does not seem right to me.

Some racing manuals can change gears without engaging the clutch however that requires perfect rev matching & h&t or t&t. Greg Murphy in the V8SC use to do it as he was a a left foot braker. Rare in that series & not overly recommended due to putting more strain on gearboxes.

Mahjik
23-09-2017, 16:18
Just to note, the physics and the animations are not tied 1:1. i.e. the animation has nothing to do with what is happening at the physics level. What you are experiencing is a specific delay that is in the older cars to keep people from using button shifters on them and rowing through the gears as if they were modern F1 cars.

Coanda
23-09-2017, 16:27
Just to note, the physics and the animations are not tied 1:1. i.e. the animation has nothing to do with what is happening at the physics level. What you are experiencing is a specific delay that is in the older cars to keep people from using button shifters on them and rowing through the gears as if they were modern F1 cars.

Absolutely, I always turn the wheel & hands off etc.. Since you mentioned animations i have noticed the sequential gear shift in some cars are not working. I have seen this in the LMP900 & GT1 class. Some work, some dont...

AitchPattern
23-09-2017, 16:49
Just to note, the physics and the animations are not tied 1:1. i.e. the animation has nothing to do with what is happening at the physics level. What you are experiencing is a specific delay that is in the older cars to keep people from using button shifters on them and rowing through the gears as if they were modern F1 cars.

It's not the animation of the driver. Check here
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?51699-Weird-gear-shifting-issues

My wording could have been better.
Basically there is a limit as to how fast a car can change gear, even manually. And it's exactly the same as drivers who use automatic without clutch.

So if you dip clutch,
Exit 1st,
Enter 2nd,
Release clutch...

The HUD will still show the cars slowly dragging its behind throw neutral etc.. and this will be a mis shift. There is a limit to how fast a manual gear change can be, and it's locked. It's coincidentally the same as the auto / not clutch time frame.

So basically, no 2 drivers you vs Lewis can make a faster gear change than another in a H pattern manual vehicle.

There is telemetry and videos and it's easy to test yourself.

Mahjik
23-09-2017, 16:52
It's not the animation of the driver. Check here
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?51699-Weird-gear-shifting-issues

There are two separate things:

1. Older cars have a specific delay to simulate older transmissions.
2. There is a shift protection system which prevents rapid downshifts

Synystr
23-09-2017, 16:57
PLEASE, PLEASE fix this.

Using the paddles and trying to heel-toe is impossible. This kills any enjoyment in stick shift cars.

Cbrriderr
23-09-2017, 16:58
I have the TH8A shifter and cannot setup. It only recognize 1st as my up shift and2nd as downshift on paddle. And it does only that for all gears.

Mahjik
23-09-2017, 17:02
When you edit the controls, you have to go into the gear and then back into neutral. Then it will register the gear.

superdry
23-09-2017, 17:15
Noticed this driving F40 LM, using T8HA with manual clutch. Have to do slowly through the gates to make sure the changes engage or you just end up with a neutral.

Synystr
23-09-2017, 17:22
The weird thing is, PCARS2 allows you to downshift without using a clutch.

Leave
23-09-2017, 17:58
Hello my first post is because I feel really outraged by this protection that in my opinion ruin the game that if it is very but very good, I hope you can reverse this unfavorable changes greetings

Gordon
24-09-2017, 00:22
If you know the minimum shifting time for a certain car/gearbox (and can provide a credible source to back up your assertion), by all means post it here and odds are it will be taken under consideration for a future patch. :)

The driveline code actually simulates the synchros and the time it takes to rev-match the input and output shafts.

Not the case with most race cars though. You can shift a dog box as fast as your arm can move. Massive driveline/engine damage garanteed if you stuff it up though. :)

resmania
24-09-2017, 00:58
The weird thing is, PCARS2 allows you to downshift without using a clutch.

It depends on the car

w0rthy
24-09-2017, 01:32
It seems that the downshift protection prevents downshifts in many situations where it shouldn't. A good example I found is in the default setup for the Toyota TS040 where shifting from 3rd to 2nd requires you to be at an extremely low speed, very far from the limiter after downshifting.

Martini Da Gasalini
24-09-2017, 01:48
I thought it was me , I was in an online race in the GTO audi quattro and 3rd gear was not engaging at times, no other gear was doing this to me, this was on H shifter, i thought it was me at first but i have yest to miss clutch gear on Mercedes e190 EVO II on Group A

Morgan Henstridge
24-09-2017, 02:05
I believe this is being looked at and may require tweaking for several vehicles.

Oomph
24-09-2017, 02:18
Yes same here finding this to be a major problem with H shifter. .

HBR-Roadhog
24-09-2017, 02:33
It would be nice to see an option to disable that feature. So far I have only found one or two cars that I did not have a failure to downshift multiple times, that combined with the deadzone on several cars and some where the brakes seem to do very little make the game more aggravating than enjoyable when driving many cars on circuit tracks.

It would also be nice if we had that deadzone removal feature as part of the car tune as currently there does not seem to be any global value that works, either some cars are to tight or others are to loose or both.

Chin
24-09-2017, 04:23
CAyman GT4 does it, as does the G40 Junior...occasional issues with the GTE Vette. Really a tough one to deal with...hope it gets fixed soon.

BigDad
24-09-2017, 05:27
Usi g a H pattern shifter i should be able to slam second gear at 200kmh and blow the engine/box but atm it just waits till its in the right rev range.

HBR-Roadhog
24-09-2017, 05:44
Usi g a H pattern shifter i should be able to slam second gear at 200kmh and blow the engine/box but atm it just waits till its in the right rev range. It would be fine if that is the case but it is not. I was driving a Porsche with a high rev engine and it would not down shift from 3rd to 2nd until under 5200 rpms or so, meanwhile the 66 Mustang which has a redline of 6000 rpms with allow shift from 3rd to second at 5500 rpms. So in other words the one where you would slam it in a blow the engine works, the one where you might realistically do it when slowing for a corner does not. The same is true on lots of other cars.

Der Hausmeister
24-09-2017, 09:25
Yeah, I noticed this too in some of the GT3 cars when trying to maximise engine braking into some heavy braking zones. Usually from 3rd to 2nd gear.

Synystr
24-09-2017, 14:50
It depends on the car

Uhh... yes. Like one with a sequential box.

I was talking about the 98T and the vintage touring cars.

TylerDurden4321
24-09-2017, 17:16
Uhh... yes. Like one with a sequential box.

I was talking about the 98T and the vintage touring cars.

Like @Gordon said before, the Lotus 98T had a 5-speed sequential dogbox (also 6-speed experimental not driven by Senna). You don't need to clutch it, the gear will go in, but the energy from angular mass of the not rev-matched engine will have to be absorbed by the driveline (and tires).

Also, I found a better video of Lotus 98T shifting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XURzexZ9mk0?t=2m2s

Synystr
24-09-2017, 17:36
Like @Gordon said before, the Lotus 98T had a 5-speed sequential dogbox (also 6-speed experimental not driven by Senna). You don't need to clutch it, the gear will go in, but the energy from angular mass of the not rev-matched engine will have to be absorbed by the driveline (and tires).


Yes, but surely the ferrari 365 gtb shouldn't, but it does.

snakehands
25-09-2017, 04:54
I've noticed with my fanatec H shifter that if I put it in neutral the car stays in gear until I put it in the next gear when it goes through neutral for a moment. This makes heel and toe impossible because there is not enough time to blip the throttle to match revs. I can't believe this was missed by the beta testers.

blausven
25-09-2017, 05:30
I even noticed this issue, that sometimes a gear won't come in without a H-Shifter, just using an ordinary PS4 Controller (LS for clutch) and driving e.g. F40, XJR9, C9... please fix it

azynkron
25-09-2017, 09:22
Yeah, I noticed this too in some of the GT3 cars when trying to maximise engine braking into some heavy braking zones. Usually from 3rd to 2nd gear.

In particular with the GT3 and GT4 cars (as far as I have experienced) and when it FINALLY downshifts, it locks up the rear. I've tried to increase the engine breaking to make it smoother, but it only helps marginally.

HBR-Roadhog
25-09-2017, 13:37
Out of curiosity I tried taking a car up to max rpm in 4th gear then pressed in the clutch lifted off the throttle and held the clutch long enough for the rpms to drop then downshifted twice before releasing the clutch. Engine Blown :)

So it seems that this new downshift protection doesn't do much except prevent us from downshifting quickly when using paddle or sequential shifters and/or auto clutch. Using the clutch pedal you can still downshift at far to high rpm and can destroy the engine in doing so.

My opinion is that this feature needs to be removed or else a setting added that allows us to disable it or set the sensitivity of it

snakehands
25-09-2017, 14:38
I've noticed with my fanatec H shifter that if I put it in neutral the car stays in gear until I put it in the next gear when it goes through neutral for a moment. This makes heel and toe impossible because there is not enough time to blip the throttle to match revs. I can't believe this was missed by the beta testers.

Actually I take all that back. I was in the Caterham which has a sequential box doh!

adam1942
25-09-2017, 16:39
Hi does anyone have a fix for this? I am playing with a G29 and having this very annoying issue.. The PS4 version is not affected. very frustrating as using proper engine breaking is impossible.

Sankyo
25-09-2017, 16:59
I really hate racing being treated like a game... I'd wish this could be turned off because it takes me out of my concentration(like oh yeah the game doesn't want me to do this). It would be different if it was a RL gearbox software thing(with flappy paddles). Why bore people that wouldn't touch esports with a pole with their rules? If it's for leagues and esports make it optional per server and, force it in TT if you will(not going there either because it has nothing to do with fun and/or realism anyway).

I'm fine with the small bugs PC2 has for me so far, but conscious choices like this make me (slightly) mad. ;)

Real cars also have mechanical delays and overrevving protection, so I'm not sure why you'd want this game to be able to do something you can't do in real life?

adam1942
25-09-2017, 17:13
Real cars also have mechanical delays and overrevving protection, so I'm not sure why you'd want this game to be able to do something you can't do in real life?


Sure for up-shifting but not when downshifting - It would be hard to get the car into first but other gears no problem. I've done it before when on track going from 6th to 4th and accidentally put it in 2nd. If you are quick you dip the clutch its usually ok but you get a bit of wheel lock as the engine over revs and has a huge affect on engine braking.

This needs to be able to be turned off. Its completely ruined the game especially when on the PS4 its not a "feature" and in fact if you do it too often your engine blows - same as Pcars1. Tweaking it is not an acceptable solution either as each car is different. Not being able to change down gears when you want is just silly imo.

adam1942
25-09-2017, 17:30
Also just checking - it wont let you over rev at ALL when downshifting. Not even a little. Even on my last road car (2015 Fiesta ST) you could over rev it and it sounded awesome. This needs fixed the devs should have made this an option for the dedicated servers especially when you do over rev you can break the car. Really silly imo.

AitchPattern
26-09-2017, 03:16
There are two separate things:

1. Older cars have a specific delay to simulate older transmissions.
2. There is a shift protection system which prevents rapid downshifts

That makes absolutely no sense?
What SMS are suggesting here is the following:

I own a CSW v2.5 + CSS + CSPv3i + CSHB
When I play any sim title I can use my shifter (when in a H pattern vehicle) and the game will sync the cars transmission to the movements made on my H patten shifter (the physical movement I make)

However, what's being suggested here. Is that PCars 2 (and ONLY PCars2) has added a "guitar hero" like delay that the users has no idea exists, and must someone time his real world gear shift, to an arbitrary number made up and imp,ended into the game, for the change to be successful?

That's not right at all guys?

What you are saying here, is that if I get in my rig, engaged second gear, but I move my physical shifter faster than the games I build and predefined, hard coded, unknown delay, my gear change will be unsucsessful (ONLY in pcars 2) because someone thinks there should be a dealy?

Surly you guys must see the physical disconnect there?

If I sit down and press a dip the clutch,
Change gear,
Release the clutch in under .5 of a second (which I do in real life in my car and all other sims) PCARS 2 will actually deny that shift as when I physically engage the second gear, there is a hard coded DELAY added by the game developers that slows the game down and technically has it lagging behind my real world movpeemts, meaning when I release the clutch the game may not have engaged the gear due to this delay?

Well how do,I know about is dealt? In VR is not displayed any where? If I have no HUD where or how to monitor gear changes to be in time with the guitar hero type rhythm based delay?

This is utterly crazy...

I honestly can't understand how my physical shifter entering second gear doesn't make the game enter 2nd gear?

So just out of curiosity, when driving H pattern vehicles with clutch. When I place my shifter into second gear, can you please tell what the dealt is, before I am allowed to release the clutch and for this preprogrammed fake delay to complete its transition? As currently, I release the clutch when my shifter enters second gear (like I do in real life and on all other sims) this is the first time, and the only game/sim that requires me to click/engage second gear... then hold the clutch down while I wait on this I build delayed reaction, to actually complete the gear change, even though physically it's all ready done?

I can't even understand this, even writing this sounds like totally jibberish! Surly Ian can't be thinking this is even remotely a good idea! You are basically saying all H patten cars should not be used with a physical shifter as the user will ALWAYS have to hold the clutch for longer than expected as entering second gear etc will only begin the gear change process (which used to be instant and in time with the gear shifter) but is now only activated a timed gear change pre programmed automated movement which isn't instant or in time with the physical gear shifter or clutch movements?

I can't even..... :-/

AitchPattern
26-09-2017, 03:19
Try distinct the Capri and changing gear fast:

Make sure that the auto clutch is off and manual gears are selected, they have apparently added a delay (by design) to all H pattern vehicles? Meaning all physical shifts will need to be synchronised by the user to an unknown and arbitrary delay?

I don't even....

Mahjik
26-09-2017, 03:30
Think about it this way, should you be able to shift faster than a car (and older car) would have allowed in real life? IMO, no you shouldn't even though our "toy" hardware does allow it.

AitchPattern
26-09-2017, 03:32
I don't think they understand the issue, as my explanation is not the best.. maybe a video will help. I may make one tomorrow.

For me, this biggest is this:
Capri (H pattern / Group 5)
Manual Gears
Auto Clutch OFF

When I dip my clutch, engage 2nd gear (any gear) the vehicle usually enters the selected gear immidelety (like a real car)

However...
In Pcars 2 (and only Pcars2) when you physically put your shifter into 2nd gear (for example) the car will not longer go directly to the selected gear, instead it begins an automated, pre programmed gear movement which moves the gear from the selected gear to the new gear. This is activated AFTER you PHSICALLY select the ACTUAL gear with the PHSICAL shifter?

Meaning the shifter is worthless? You would be faster and better just using flappy!

Movojg a shifter into 2nd should mean the car goes into 2nd, but this is NOT the case, a delay has been added and confirmed by the mods?

So basically if you use a H pattern shifter, and you select second gear, you must keep your clutch engaged until the pre programmed automated gear change code has executed before you can release the clutch. Problem is, we don't know how long this is, meaning we have to guess?

This means that using the clutch in PCars is a complete waste of time as those not using a clutch will ALWAYS be faster than those using one.

If we both drove the Capri.
You use H patter, clutch and manual, technically you should be able to change gear quicker than my if I used automatic gears.

However, in pcars 2 automatic gears is actually FASTER than manual as manual (H pattern) has a delay, and if you don't time it perlfectly you get a miss shift, and if you hold it too long, you have a long shift (losing time).

This "situation" is mental? Beyond mental!
I mean... what were they thinking? This is the only game ever in history to decide that physical input devices such as H pattern shifters will be ignored and the user must use so,e guitar hero like timed movements to actually get a gear changed...

Simulation...?

For pad users yes!

Ian Bell
26-09-2017, 03:35
I don't think they understand the issue, as my explanation is not the best.. maybe a video will help. I may make one tomorrow.

For me, this biggest is this:
Capri (H pattern / Group 5)
Manual Gears
Auto Clutch OFF

When I dip my clutch, engage 2nd gear (any gear) the vehicle usually enters the selected gear immidelety (like a real car)

However...
In Pcars 2 (and only Pcars2) when you physically put your shifter into 2nd gear (for example) the car will not longer go directly to the selected gear, instead it begins an automated, pre programmed gear movement which moves the gear from the selected gear to the new gear. This is activated AFTER you PHSICALLY select the ACTUAL gear with the PHSICAL shifter?

Meaning the shifter is worthless? You would be faster and better just using flappy!

Movojg a shifter into 2nd should mean the car goes into 2nd, but this is NOT the case, a delay has been added and confirmed by the mods?

So basically if you use a H pattern shifter, and you select second gear, you must keep your clutch engaged until the pre programmed automated gear change code has executed before you can release the clutch. Problem is, we don't know how long this is, meaning we have to guess?

This means that using the clutch in PCars is a complete waste of time as those not using a clutch will ALWAYS be faster than those using one.

If we both drove the Capri.
You use H patter, clutch and manual, technically you should be able to change gear quicker than my if I used automatic gears.

However, in pcars 2 automatic gears is actually FASTER than manual as manual (H pattern) has a delay, and if you don't time it perlfectly you get a miss shift, and if you hold it too long, you have a long shift (losing time).

This is mental? Beyond mental!
I mean... what were they thinking? This is the only game ever in history to decide that physical input devices such as H pattern shifters will be ignored and the user must use so,e guitar hero like timed movements to actually get a gear changed...

Simulation...?

For pad users yes!

Don't call us mental please.

It was thoroughly thought out to limit downshifting exploits. As in we go to the engineering data for the sensible minimum shift time and impose that as a minimum.

Please try to formulate any complaints without abuse.

AitchPattern
26-09-2017, 03:44
Think about it this way, should you be able to shift faster than a car (and older car) would have allowed in real life? IMO, no you shouldn't even though our "toy" hardware does allow it.

But that still makes no sense?
We can drive cars faster than they go IRL.
In paces and locations they don't / can't go IRL.
We can drive them in weather they are not supposed to driven in IRL.

The IRL idea is fine but it seems to be all,ice ONLY when it suits. For example, I can downshift faster than the game allows IRL in the AMG, but SMS added a downshift protection that ISNT present IRL for use in esports.

You can't have it both ways.

Every dime in existance, including PCars 1 tKes the input from the user and applies it to the vehicle. We can adjust steering racks, we can reduce or extend the DOR, we use flappy paddles on cars that didn't have them, we can do a million things that we can't do IRL in this game.

It's makes no sense to take decades of user input and actually ADD LATENCY and DELAY and sell it as a good thing?

If my physical shifter enters 2nd gear, the vehicle should enter second gear, it's should not begin a pre programed computer aided delay Athat only takes place AFTER I have angaged my gear? :-/

That's goofy?

So you are actually advocating, that adding latency, to an input device, so that when a user dips a clutch, moves a shifter, that the game physically ignores that request and instead adds a delay to this movement, rendering the entire movement pointless?

In that case? Why should users use a H pattern or a clutch?
Technically under this regime we are all faster on pads.

The delay in gear change is started by pressing the button on the pad (I agree with that).
But on the shifter / H / Clutch we have additionally physical real world delays that are not being accounted for here, you are missing the time it take so me to dip the clutch and move the shifter BEFORE the gear change.

This is my point.

The users of manual equiptment ADDis delay themselves by dipping a clutch, disengaging the gear, dragging the shifter through neutral, pushing it into second.... after physically doing ALL of this.. you add the SAME delay that a pad user gets ONTOP of our physical delay?

Basically you are saying that pad users get a more realistic experience than sim users?

Aldo Zampatti
26-09-2017, 03:49
But that still makes no sense?
We can drive cars faster than they go IRL.
In paces and locations they don't / can't go IRL.
We can drive them in weather they are not supposed to driven in IRL.

The IRL idea is fine but it seems to be all,ice ONLY when it suits. For example, I can downshift faster than the game allows IRL in the AMG, but SMS added a downshift protection that ISNT present IRL for use in esports.

You can't have it both ways.

Every dime in existance, including PCars 1 tKes the input from the user and applies it to the vehicle. We can adjust steering racks, we can reduce or extend the DOR, we use flappy paddles on cars that didn't have them, we can do a million things that we can't do IRL in this game.

It's makes no sense to take decades of user input and actually ADD LATENCY and DELAY and sell it as a good thing?

If my physical shifter enters 2nd gear, the vehicle should enter second gear, it's should not begin a pre programed computer aided delay Athat only takes place AFTER I have angaged my gear? :-/

That's goofy?

So you are actually advocating, that adding latency, to an input device, so that when a user dips a clutch, moves a shifter, that the game physically ignores that request and instead adds a delay to this movement, rendering the entire movement pointless?

In that case? Why should users use a H pattern or a clutch?
Technically under this regime we are all faster on pads.

The delay in gear change is started by pressing the button on the pad (I agree with that).
But on the shifter / H / Clutch we have additionally physical real world delays that are not being accounted for here, you are missing the time it take so me to dip the clutch and move the shifter BEFORE the gear change.

This is my point.

The users of manual equiptment ADDis delay themselves by dipping a clutch, disengaging the gear, dragging the shifter through neutral, pushing it into second.... after physically doing ALL of this.. you add the SAME delay that a pad user gets ONTOP of our physical delay?

Basically you are saying that pad users get a more realistic experience than sim users?


Please... read Ian's answer here:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?51462-Slow-shifts&p=1367449#post1367449

Mahjik
26-09-2017, 03:51
But that still makes no sense?

Being able to button shift a Lotus 49 like a modern F1 car does not make sense.

Writing books of the same argument doesn't change how I feel about it. I'm not suggesting there shouldn't be some updates in this space, but I don't believe we should be able to shift cars as fast as our non-real hardware allows. This is not Burnout...

AitchPattern
26-09-2017, 03:54
Don't call us mental please.

It was thoroughly thought out to limit downshifting exploits. As in we go to the engineering data for the sensible minimum shift time and impose that as a minimum.

Please try to formulate any complaints without abuse.

Hi Ian.

I am not calling you mental, I am referencing the situation. My apologies if you think I was calling anyone in particular mental, it as you can see I said "this" as in this situation, as it seems no one has understood that this delay is actually additive and therefore hinders the user of a clutch / h pattern and means users should use a pad and/or auto clutch.

The issue here is not the downshift issue, I'm ok with that. The issue is the following.

For Capri (H pattern vehicles)
Manual Gears
H pattern
Auto clutch OFF

Apparently, SMS have decided to ignore the users actual physical input and placement of the shifter, and instead are now starting a coded "gear change" AFTER the user invokes the selected gear.

This makes no sense for H pattern users (but makes perfect sense for pad users)

What is wrong with situation is the following...
The delayed pre preprogrammed gear change ONLY takes place AFTER the H pattern user selects the gear they actually want to be in.

This probably took the user .5 of a second (dip clutch/dis engage gear/pass through neutral/ enter new gear)

However...
The game IGNORES this "pre" part, and ADDS the delayed gear change POST this already physical delay that the H pattern user experiences from changing gear.

Now for a pad user, who presses a button for gear up I expect a delay of .25s or so (like real life) but the game ADDS this delay to H PATERN user too (even after we have spent .5 of a second doing all the above movements)

This means that I take .5 of a second to dip clutch, disengage gear, move to neutral, engage next gear... but ONLY when I actually engage the gear... does the game then begin its pre coded delayed gear change routine, which In turn adds this hard coded dealt AGAIN.

Meaning pad users get a delay of .25 and H pattern users get a delay of the time it takes them to physically change gear + the hardcoded (baked in) added delay which is actually added AFTER the fact?

Meaning they need to ride the clutch for .25 seconds or so to ensure the hard coded fake dealt is completed after they complete the gear change.

So on my rig, I can move my shifter into 2nd.. and unlike real life or any other sim, PCars 2 still displays me in 1st.. then it moves me to neutral, then it moves me to 2nd.. instead of just moving me to 2nd...

Basically... entering 2nd gear (any gear) actually starts the gear change process and don't actually CHANGE the gear.

Which is fine for pad uses, but we H/Clutch users already have around .5 delay anyway but doing all the clutch and gear movement BEFORE this button is pressed.

It's additive and it shouldn't be. Try shifting fast in the Capri, it's totally broken and doesn't work UNLESS you eneable auto clutch, in which case it works (with the delay added) but the user donest need to clutch manutally etc...

MISTER WU
26-09-2017, 04:11
As you describe above is exactly what im getting and i thought it was me using the Grou5 cars (Same car infact) with manual and H pattern (I race every car this way in both games, i hate padals).
I also thought i wasnt engaging the clutch properly (Fully to 100%) because i was used to smashing the clutch down and shifting at the exact same time as in real life but i found you cant rush it with pcars2.

I also thought i could change the friction point of the clutch but no matter what it always hits a friction point of around 40-50% clutch input.
Glad im not the only one but for a work around i clutch up and just have to wait a split second before changing otherwise it misses the gear all together.

PS: I forgot to mention that the reason i turned auto clutch off in pcars1 (And pcars 2) was it gave me a slight advantage in GT3 and the V8 supercars when changing gears because them cars change gears blistering fast.

AitchPattern
26-09-2017, 04:24
As you describe above is exactly what im getting and i thought it was me using the GT5 cars with manual and H pattern (I race every car this way in both games, i hate padals).
I also thought i wasnt engaging the clutch properly (Fully to 100%) because i was used to smashing the clutch down and shifting at the exact same time as in real life but i found you cant rush it with pcars2.

I also thought i could change the friction point of the clutch but no matter what it always hits a friction point of around 40-50% clutch input.
Glad im not the only one but for a work around i clutch up and just have to wait a split second before changing otherwise it misses the gear all together.

Exactly. You are not the only one. The main issue I am having lost in translation...
I'm not complaining about a rule, a delay, or a yarn glome that... It's the fact that the delay is ADDED to H pattern users (who already have a delay, unlike pad users) but the process isn't started until the gear is selected ??? :-/

Basically, it looks to me, that the game is coded in such a way, that when a user presses a button to change gear it changes gear. Great!

For example let's say the gear change process is:
Gear change "up" button pressed.
x>y (t=250ms)

Perfect!

However... it seems, that the game sees the H pattern gear selection, the same as it sees the control pad button press.
Gear selection
x>y (t=250ms)
Incorrect.

Why?
2 reasons...

Reason 1: We already spent .5 seconds dipping a clutch/disengaging gear/through neutral/engaging new gear.
Reason 2: We are ALREADY in gear! Starting a hard coded automatic gear change (when the gear change has already taken place) is unmanageable/incorrect and unlike real life, as the user would have to (technically) do 2 gear changes (one manual, and then the automated delay activated when the gear engaged).

I think the mods have misunderstood my point, but they should just jump on the Capri and drive it as fast as they can, with H pattern, manual gears and manual clutch (auto clutch off) and they will see that a qually or world record is impossible as they get 2 delays when they change gear in a H pattern Vehicle.

Aldo Zampatti
26-09-2017, 04:38
Exactly. You are not the only one. The main issue I am having lost in translation...
I'm not complaining about a rule, a delay, or a yarn glome that... It's the fact that the delay is ADDED to H pattern users (who already have a delay, unlike pad users) but the process isn't started until the gear is selected ??? :-/

Basically, it looks to me, that the game is coded in such a way, that when a user presses a button to change gear it changes gear. Great!

For example let's say the gear change process is:
Gear change "up" button pressed.
x>y (t=250ms)

Perfect!

However... it seems, that the game sees the H pattern gear selection, the same as it sees the control pad button press.
Gear selection
x>y (t=250ms)
Incorrect.

Why?
2 reasons...

Reason 1: We already spent .5 seconds dipping a clutch/disengaging gear/through neutral/engaging new gear.
Reason 2: We are ALREADY in gear! Starting a hard coded automatic gear change (when the gear change has already taken place) is unmanageable/incorrect and unlike real life, as the user would have to (technically) do 2 gear changes (one manual, and then the automated delay activated when the gear engaged).

I think the mods have misunderstood my point, but they should just jump on the Capri and drive it as fast as they can, with H pattern, manual gears and manual clutch (auto clutch off) and they will see that a qually or world record is impossible as they get 2 delays when they change gear in a H pattern Vehicle.

Let me ask you one question. How fast (in milliseconds) you think you can shift (fully shift) on an H transmission for example from 3rd to 4th (straight down)?

I know the answer, I've measured it on my car specifically. I haven't measured PC2, but I'm almost sure I would get the same~ish time

Morgan Henstridge
26-09-2017, 04:55
I'm waiting for the day when i can get a "FFB" shifter which would be able to re-create these old gear boxes, and not allow them to engage unrealistically quickly.

The issue is that the software is trying to be authentic to the Real car and its gearbox, but shifters currently will let you physically "shift" to any gear at any time.

If the sim was hooked up to a real clutch / gearbox combo, you would not be able to shift as fast as the current PC Shifter hardware will allow.

AitchPattern
26-09-2017, 05:05
Let me ask you one question. How fast (in milliseconds) you think you can shift (fully shift) on an H transmission for example from 3rd to 4th (straight down)?

I know the answer, I've measured it on my car specifically. I haven't measured PC2, but I'm almost sure I would get the same~ish time

Well... I own an EVO and a Capri (hence my favouritism of these particular vehicles) and I can do in these, what I can do in every sim? Except PCars 2?

Additionally, I don't think you can Do what you think you can do, on the Capri in PCrs 2 (if you disable auto clutch and engage manual H)

Why?
Because the delay is "ADDED" "AFTER" the user has already "COMPLETED" the gear change.

Think of it this way.
Me vs you!
Drag Race Pcars 2
Capri
You on Sim Rig Ģ100,000 worth of the finest tech.
Me on XBOX controller.

I can guarantee EVERY time, I will win!

Why?

Because a pad maximum delay is (for example .25 second from pressing button, to actual gear changing).

On sim rig, you have the same delay + the time it takes you to dip clutch, dis engage each gear, travel through neutral, re engage each gear ...

But ...

THEN YOU GET THE ADDED DELAY

Every single time you "complete" a successful gear change, and you must then wait for an additional .25 seconds "AFTER" every successful change ... "AFTER" (not during the change ... AFTER) before you can release the clutch.

I think we are not on the same page,
I totally understand what you are saying. But you are missing the point.

If PCars 2 has a minimum gear change time of .25 seconds on group 5 H pattern cars then a pad user, who clicks the gear up button, changes from 1st to 2nd in .25

A H pattern user SHOULD be able to achieve AT LEAST the same time OR longer. However, it's currently technically IMPOSSIBLE for H/Manual NO AUTO CLUTCH user to get the same shift time as a pad user, the LEAST they can get, is (pad time + physical time)

A H pattern user GETS THE ADDED PAD DELAY ASWELL / AFTER they have already complete the shift in .5 (or .25) or whatever seconds.

Let's use .25s as an example here:

Ford Capri minimum shift time on pad .25s
Ford Capri minumim shift time auto gears .25s
Ford Capri minimum shift time H pattern (auto clutch) .25s
Ford Capri minumim shift time H pattern (manual clutch) Physical delay (+.25s added AFTER THE GEAR CHANGE HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE AND USER MUST CONTINUE TO PRESS CLUTCH FOR THIS ADDITIONAL EXTRA PERIOD OF TIME)

It should be:
Ford Capri minimum shift time on pad .25s
Ford Capri minumim shift time auto gears .25s
Ford Capri minimum shift time H pattern (auto clutch) .25s
Ford Capri minumim shift time H pattern (manual clutch) Physical delay (never less than .25s)

It means that the H pattern gets the pad delay ASWELL as the human delay.

But what's worse... is that this pad delay ISNT STARTED until the H pattern user has already finished his gear shift, and then must just sit there, with his foot on the clutch, waiting for the extra delay to finish so he can move on?

I agree with the delay! I agree I agree I agree!
It's correct, it should be there, it's correct.,
Down shift delay should be there, it's correct too. I agree I agree I agree.

The point is when I move shifter to 2nd gear, this should not begin a process that is the same as a user pressing a button on a pad. But at this moment in time, that's what's happening.

Aldo Zampatti
26-09-2017, 05:15
I simply don't agree.

FYI: 238ms from 3rd to 4th and 258ms from 2nd to 3rd... Never better than that and I'm not "slow"precisely though probably not the fastest. Take a Cobb access port with 2 or 3 PIDs of logs on your EVO and try it yourself :)

AitchPattern
26-09-2017, 05:20
I simply don't agree.

FYI: 238ms from 3rd to 4th and 258ms from 2nd to 3rd... Never better than that and I'm not "slow"precisely though probably not the fastest. Take a Cobb access port with 2 or 3 PIDs of logs on your EVO and try it yourself :)

On
project Cars 1
Assets corsa
IRacing
RRRE
RFactor
Etc

You could do EXACTLY THAT time on all those sims!

However...
On project cars 2 you could NOT do the same change!
Because as soon as you physically ENTER the selected gear, after the change has taken place (258ms) (4th for example) you would be ADDED an additional .25s delay by the game!

That's the point!

So in real life you can change gear in 258ms!
You can do this in every sim on the planet!

But...
in PCars 2, the best YOU could possibly do, would be 258ms + the delay it is adding on AFTER the change has taken place!

That's my point!
That's the entire point of this discussion!

The game is "adding" on an actual hard coded delay (used for controller users) to H pattern users "AFTER" they have selected/completed the gear change.

Try it yourself in the Capri,
manual gears,
auto clutch OFF
and H pattern!

You will go...
Ahhh.... I see.... it's adding the minimum shift time "AFTER" I already shifted manually (which was longer than the minimum shift time) ahhhhhhh. I seeeeeeee!

Aldo Zampatti
26-09-2017, 05:23
On
project Cars 1
Assets corsa
IRacing
RRRE
RFactor
Etc

You could do EXACTLY THAT on all those sims!

On project cars 2 you could do the same change, but as soon as you physically ENTER the selected gear (4th for example) you would ADDED an additional .25s desalt by the game.

So in real life you can change 258ms but then in PCars the best you could do would be 258ms + the delay it is adding on AFTER the change has taken place!

That's my point.

I'll have to try again and let you know, but that was definitely NOT my feeling. I drive fully manual 100% of the time, (clutch and everything) and I never had the feeling of an extra unrealistic delay. I will see tomorrow if I can use an external telemetry app and compare Apples to apples... I doubt I get an "extra" delay. If something, I was always faster using fully manual

AitchPattern
26-09-2017, 05:34
I'll have to try again and let you know, but that was definitely NOT my feeling. I drive fully manual 100% of the time, (clutch and everything) and I never had the feeling of an extra unrealistic delay. I will see tomorrow if I can use an external telemetry app and compare Apples to apples... I doubt I get an "extra" delay. If something, I was always faster using fully manual

It's there.
Just try shifting in the Capri as fast as you can, Drag race the Capri. But shift as fast as you can... you will notice that there is a delay from when the shifter enters the selected gear, to when the car does. And that time... that time is EXACTLY the same as the pad time.



Ford Capri
MUST BE MANUAL - H Pattern
AUTO CLUCH MUST BE DISABLED (AUTO Clutch OFF) must use manual clutch
Drag race the car!
Shift as fast as you possibly can!

I'm 100% certain that if you shift IRL at 258ms and you dip the clutch, change, release clutch super quick, all shifts will miss in the Capri!

Why, becuase if you look closely, you can see that even when your physical shifter is IN the select gear... the cars transmission is not, because it's "playing" an automated pre programmed delay aimed at pad users, as it sees your input (when you enable a selected gear) the same as when a user presses "gear up" on a pad.

Check it out and I'll happily post telemetry from the apps and a video of you need it, but I know, for sure that if you test it, if you those exact conditions, and you try to change gear as fast as you possibly can, you will see the same bug/issue and hopefully be able to explain it to the team better than I am doing ;)

AitchPattern
26-09-2017, 06:00
I'm waiting for the day when i can get a "FFB" shifter which would be able to re-create these old gear boxes, and not allow them to engage unrealistically quickly.

The issue is that the software is trying to be authentic to the Real car and its gearbox, but shifters currently will let you physically "shift" to any gear at any time.

If the sim was hooked up to a real clutch / gearbox combo, you would not be able to shift as fast as the current PC Shifter hardware will allow.

Well, you would?
We need to merge these threads but 258ms is the time it takes Aldo to change gear.

He can do that in the flowing sims and In real life!
PCars 1
Asetto Corsa
IRacing
RRRE
Automobilista
Rfactor
Etc...

He can't however, do that in PCars 2:

Why?

Because currently pcars 2 will take his 258ms gear (physical) gear change time, and then "ADD" on the automatic pre programmed minimum delay time AFTER the selected gear is engaged.

After he enters the selected gear, that begins the inbuild gear change process which has the added delay (so it took him 258ms + the added delay)


Currently PCars 2 is seeing the engagement of the gear, the same as it sees the button press on a controller, and therefore adds/starts/runs the preprogrammed, automated gear change process AFTER he has already spent 258ms changing gear (and that 258ms is already longer than the minimum gear change time implamented in the game)

You guys are to busy trying to defend something, I'm not attacking to listen/see the point...

The point has been missed again and again.
I'm not wanting fast shifts.
I like and agree with the delay.
I like and agree with the down shift dealt.
I like and agree with the build in minimum shift time.

However...
A pad user can change gear (in the "Capri") using ...manual or automatic gears at (lets say) .25s as an example.

Pad user clicking "gear up" - gear change = .25s (minimum in build gear change time)
Pad user automatic gears - gear change = .25s (minimum in build gear change time)
Wheel user using flappy paddle - gear change = .25s (minimum in build gear change time)
Wheel user h pattern - auto clutch - gear change .25s (minimum in build gear change time)

Wheel user h pattern - manual clutch - gear change physical movement 258ms (but after gear change is successfully completed the game begins the automated .25s minimum gear change process which is added AFTER the fact)

That's the point.

Everyone is talking about things I'm not talking about, going on about things I'm not going on about.

Im talking about a very specific issue that has nothing to do with any of this tings you guys are talking about.

I agree with the delay,
the down shift delay,
the minimum shift time etc.

They are correct and I agree!

I am talking about the fact that the game is actually activating the manual gear change process, AFTER the manual process has completed (by adding the standard pre programmed, hard coded delay at this point)

I agree with the hard coded delay, I don't think anyone should be able to shift quicker but that's NOT the point here...

The point is being missed, becusse everyone is banging their drum so loud trying to say I'm a hater/wrong etc, when in fact it's the total opposite.

This could be solved by just stoping for a moment, jumping in the Capri and...
Enable manual gears,
Enable h pattern shifter,
auto clutch off,
Drag race and shift it as fast as you can...

Then you will physically see on the screen what this is all about.

MaximusN
26-09-2017, 07:23
I tried the Capri and must agree it doesn't feel as if I can shift as fast and natural as with my real car. I know it's trying to simulate an older gearbox, but with no physical feedback I think it's wrong to force a slower gearbox transition on people with H-Shifters(I have a TH8). Because IRL you would feel the gear not falling in the gate. Sadly FFB shifters are kind of a pipe-dream. So IMHO as long as you press the clutch before engaging the gear and let it go after it's in gear it should be a valid shift. But then I tested in the 2002 and there you never need the clutch at all which is the other opposite which I don't like either. That defeats the purpose of the manual clutch option.

Fanapryde
26-09-2017, 07:33
Only talking about H-pattern shift, clutch obviously, heel-toe when downshifting.
IRL I'm used to fast shifting.
In game I'm missing about 65-70% of my UP shifts ! :confused:
Need to push the clutch a second time to engage the gear.
I am on (very well configurated) Heusinkveld Pro pedals and Fanatec CSW shifter.
Whatever changes I made in the in-game settings so far did not help.
There is obviously something off here...

braveflea
26-09-2017, 08:02
For instance you may not notice the weird down shift safety arrangement with Formula A on the Azure Circuit but longer straight aways approaching tight turns it's set wrong-like spa Francorchamps. At Daytona GP on turn 5 of the horseshoe in the Toyota TS040 it has me locked in 3rd gear while AI is either going around me, knocking me off the track or 2nd is catching late in the middle of the hairpin compromising control. It also introduces problems on the back stretch chicane there, you cannot drive this game as a whole competitively where this is set. If this feature is a must for the developers then set it where you would actually blow an engine, as a novice would or a mistake was made, not where it's at now. For some strange reason this site won't let me post a signature yet but I'm using the Thrustmaster Ferrari F1 wheel paddle shifting with their pro pedals for reference here. Engine wear and safety are one thing, but this is set at total arcade-beginner level *with no way to control it* at least with my configuration, manual auto clutch. I haven't had any upshift problems yet.

pa_pinkelman
26-09-2017, 08:24
Sure for up-shifting but not when downshifting - It would be hard to get the car into first but other gears no problem. I've done it before when on track going from 6th to 4th and accidentally put it in 2nd. If you are quick you dip the clutch its usually ok but you get a bit of wheel lock as the engine over revs and has a huge affect on engine braking.

This needs to be able to be turned off. Its completely ruined the game especially when on the PS4 its not a "feature" and in fact if you do it too often your engine blows - same as Pcars1. Tweaking it is not an acceptable solution either as each car is different. Not being able to change down gears when you want is just silly imo.

Yes exactly, we aren't even able to use enginebraking properly now. When I have to brake hard, like when I am in 5th gear and I am aproaching a 2nd gear corner for example, I usually (depending on car) brake hard, engage the clutch shift to 3rd or even 2nd and at the right moment when the revs let me, while still braking, I let the clutch go. When done right the enginebraking helps slowing the car down massively allowing shorter braking distances. However this needs to be timed exactly right because too early overrevs the engine resulting in a spin or massive engine damage, and too late results in no enginebraking whatsoever thus the car not slowing down enough.
At the moment in PC2 it is imposible to time this right because of the realy silly overprotection.

It al feels very strange to physically shift and having to wait for the game to complete your action.

I understand why this done, but it should absolutely be removed for people who use H-pattern shifters.

Morgan Henstridge
26-09-2017, 09:23
I have tried this with the Capri as you suggested, and the "delay" is not starting after the manual process is complete.

If you try and shift quickly it will miss, as has been outlined.
If i am in 1 gear, put the clutch in, and then kick the gear into neutral and wait a second, I can then throw it straight into the next gear, dump the clutch and it has drive without delay.

If the delay was "after" the manual process was completed, the second instance should also "miss" the shift, which is not the case.

EDIT - I should add the shifting in the Capri seems very similar to the behaviour that was already in Project CARS 1.

Tepp
26-09-2017, 11:16
Guys!

I understand both opinions, and both are true:

1. The gear change cannot be instant as the gerboxes have the delay IRL, that's true.
2. When you already have finished the change and put the shifter in the gear, you have to be allowed to engage the clutch immediately without the mis-shifts, that is again true!

These two things MUST be implemented BOTH!!! The devs tried to simulate the first, which is fine, but forgot about the second, and that is the problem.

Maybe we can implement the delay only for automatic clutch? Because the H-shifters already have natural delay.

Edit:
Or, if you still want to preserve the delay, maybe is better to prevent engaging of the gear too fast for those older cars. User have to stay in neutral a little longer, then engage the gear and immediately release the clutch. IMO this is more natural way in comparison to staying on the clutch after the gear is already engaged.

Morgan Henstridge
26-09-2017, 12:30
Guys!

I understand both opinions, and both are true:

1. The gear change cannot be instant as the gerboxes have the delay IRL, that's true.
2. When you already have finished the change and put the shifter in the gear, you have to be allowed to engage the clutch immediately without the mis-shifts, that is again true!

These two things MUST be implemented BOTH!!! The devs tried to simulate the first, which is fine, but forgot about the second, and that is the problem.

Maybe we can implement the delay only for automatic clutch? Because the H-shifters already have natural delay.

Edit:
Or, if you still want to preserve the delay, maybe is better to disable engaging of the gear too fast for those older cars. User have to stay in neutral a little longer, then engage the gear and immediately release the clutch. IMO this is more natural way in comparison to staying on the clutch after the gear is already engaged.

The issue is, you can not have both as that is a contradiction. You either have the realistic delay in software, OR have the shift finished as soon as the shifter peripheral is in gear.

Until there is some sort of Shifter peripheral that can physically stop you shifting until the game says you can for that particular gearbox, then you can not have both.

This is no different to taking a few easy laps when you are new to a car to learn the handling and braking characteristics before you push it to 11. Take a few laps and learn the shifting behaviour.

eracerhead
26-09-2017, 12:48
Agreed on all points. Using a physical H-shifter/clutch arrangement is actually a detriment at the moment unless autoclutch is ON. And good point about engine braking; the delay makes the clutch bite point currently impossible to correctly judge.

AitchPattern
26-09-2017, 13:10
This is great news (that others have confirmed it) :)

So, could the team here (that have confirmed it) please communicate this to the team better than I did.

I was lambasted, received an infractioned and told I was wrong by around 4 WMD members, and told that the game was working like real life and I should deal with it and mocking me about playing with "toy" wheel etc (see other thread) :)

However, clearly I'm not a good communicator of information, I completely accept that, so I don't blame them entirely :)

With that said, to stop the waters being muddy, we need to keep this separate from the downshift issue etc as I think that's what they thought I was "moaning" about initially :)

Thanks for testing and confirming though guys, hopefully Aldo will update with same results later today too.

AitchPattern
26-09-2017, 13:14
I have tried this with the Capri as you suggested, and the "delay" is not starting after the manual process is complete.

If you try and shift quickly it will miss, as has been outlined.
If i am in 1 gear, put the clutch in, and then kick the gear into neutral and wait a second, I can then throw it straight into the next gear, dump the clutch and it has drive without delay.

If the delay was "after" the manual process was completed, the second instance should also "miss" the shift, which is not the case.

EDIT - I should add the shifting in the Capri seems very similar to the behaviour that was already in Project CARS 1.

Weird other WMD members have confirmed the exact opposite, and agree the Capri is NOT shifting correctly.

See other thread...
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?51462-Slow-shifts/page4

hotak
26-09-2017, 14:45
I don't have an H pattern shifter so cannot tell for sure, but IIRC the additional delay should start when you disengage the previous gear, not when you engage the latter, it may be that the gr5 has too much built-in delay, the problem here is that many people "cheat" online using macros that change gear immediatly with perfectly timed clutch and gear imput, the delay is there to not let those people abuse the system, but i agree the delay should be a realistic one (anyway it really depends on how good is the gearbox, on my RL clio i cannot change gear too fast because it will simply not engage before what seems like half a second)

Morgan Henstridge
26-09-2017, 14:47
Weird other WMD members have confirmed the exact opposite, and agree the Capri is NOT shifting correctly.

See other thread...
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?51462-Slow-shifts/page4

I don't know how the Capri shifts on a pad to compare. All I can say is that it feels like it did in PCARS 1, and the delay with H pattern and manual clutch is not added from the end of the shift action.

Anyone can do the same test I did and see if they get a different result.

TylerDurden4321
26-09-2017, 15:34
Are they really not looking into this issue now?

That's like saying "every other sim on the market got it wrong, we are sticking to our superior modeling"... common, SMS guys. Get somebody on it, please.

Casey Ringley
26-09-2017, 15:51
OK that does sound like something in the system is not working as designed. What it should be doing is simple:

Shift request comes in
Look at what the engine rpm would be if the shift is successful at that instant
If engine rpm > threshold, reject the shift request

Clutch input and even current engine rpm shouldn't be a factor in the equation. The threshold right now is set at the rev limit rpm, but I think it would be a good idea to increase this to maybe 110% of rev limit.

H-pattern manuals leave you on your own. Nothing there to stop you slamming it into any gear at speed.

This is only for modern sequential gearboxes where electronic protection like this does exist.

MaximusN
26-09-2017, 17:13
but i agree the delay should be a realistic one (anyway it really depends on how good is the gearbox, on my RL clio i cannot change gear too fast because it will simply not engage before what seems like half a second)

There is no realistic delay, because there is no realistic feedback(at least until we get FFB-shifters). So trying to take into account bad synchros in a real box will only mess with your muscle instincts. The stick won't refuse to get in gear, so you have to listen if it has taken gear and if not you lose a lot of time. And IRL you can use extra armforce to force it into gear anyway(it'll hurt your gears, but you can).

And IMHO (but that's me) any H-box in a sim should be able to shift as fast as the fastest non-macro shifter can shift. Or at least don't make it miss the shift but just engage the gear later you shouldn't be punished for executing a perfect shift(at least not with a missed shift as punishment). It's the gear missing that infuriates me most, not the delay. After a few times I just switch to auto-clutch(but still use the clutch as if it were needed).

ZulfoDK
26-09-2017, 18:54
I have noticed that I can't down shift gears if in high revs - I'm using the shifter paddles on my G27... this is quite annoying as it makes me miss a lot of down changes :(

hotak
26-09-2017, 20:27
There is no realistic delay, because there is no realistic feedback(at least until we get FFB-shifters). So trying to take into account bad synchros in a real box will only mess with your muscle instincts. The stick won't refuse to get in gear, so you have to listen if it has taken gear and if not you lose a lot of time. And IRL you can use extra armforce to force it into gear anyway(it'll hurt your gears, but you can).

And IMHO (but that's me) any H-box in a sim should be able to shift as fast as the fastest non-macro shifter can shift. Or at least don't make it miss the shift but just engage the gear later you shouldn't be punished for executing a perfect shift(at least not with a missed shift as punishment). It's the gear missing that infuriates me most, not the delay. After a few times I just switch to auto-clutch(but still use the clutch as if it were needed).

I agree, if it makes it unrealistically difficoult to shift, but just to defend the game a bit i have to say that the gearbox system in pCars2 is really complex, so, as you say, a FFB shifter would really be needed to use it in the best way, for example if you try the aston martin dbr1 it needs you to use the clutch two times (don't remember the manouver name) to do a correct gearchange..

cioara
26-09-2017, 21:32
This issue appears also in DCT cars. Abnormaly slow up shifts in the likes of GT3 RS( PDK has 8ms upshifts) or AMG GT-R,even the r35 gtr feels weird.

ianwgp
26-09-2017, 21:40
I was having problems downshifting with a g27 but after setting clutch sensitivity to 100 it seems fine now

napocapo69
26-09-2017, 21:56
This problem for me makes this version of PC unplayable competitively at this point.

Definitely you cannot compete with the AI. AI can downshift like a machinegun

MrCrunk12
26-09-2017, 22:28
Glad to see that I'm not the only one having this problem.

Morgan Henstridge
26-09-2017, 22:39
It's there.
Just try shifting in the Capri as fast as you can, Drag race the Capri. But shift as fast as you can... you will notice that there is a delay from when the shifter enters the selected gear, to when the car does. And that time... that time is EXACTLY the same as the pad time.



Ford Capri
MUST BE MANUAL - H Pattern
AUTO CLUCH MUST BE DISABLED (AUTO Clutch OFF) must use manual clutch
Drag race the car!
Shift as fast as you possibly can!

I'm 100% certain that if you shift IRL at 258ms and you dip the clutch, change, release clutch super quick, all shifts will miss in the Capri!

Why, becuase if you look closely, you can see that even when your physical shifter is IN the select gear... the cars transmission is not, because it's "playing" an automated pre programmed delay aimed at pad users, as it sees your input (when you enable a selected gear) the same as when a user presses "gear up" on a pad.

Check it out and I'll happily post telemetry from the apps and a video of you need it, but I know, for sure that if you test it, if you those exact conditions, and you try to change gear as fast as you possibly can, you will see the same bug/issue and hopefully be able to explain it to the team better than I am doing ;)

I'll repost this here from the other thread about this....

I have tried this with the Capri as you suggested, and the "delay" is not starting after the manual process is complete.

If you try and shift quickly it will miss, as has been outlined.
If i am in 1 gear, put the clutch in, and then kick the gear into neutral and wait a second, I can then throw it straight into the next gear, dump the clutch and it has drive without delay.

If the delay was "after" the manual process was completed, the second instance should also "miss" the shift, which is not the case.

I don't know how the Capri shifts on a Game Pad to compare. All I can say is that it feels like it did in PCARS 1 to me, and the delay with H pattern and manual clutch is definitely not added from the end of the shift action.

Anyone can do the same test I did and see if they get a different result.

resmania
27-09-2017, 00:36
I have noticed that I can't down shift gears if in high revs - I'm using the shifter paddles on my G27... this is quite annoying as it makes me miss a lot of down changes :(

Just like in real life ;)

braveflea
27-09-2017, 02:49
Definitely you cannot compete with the AI. AI can downshift like a machinegun

Yes thank you but in due respect I’m using AI as a reference more than a comparison. Even an average productive solo run will produce a game broken experience in some circumstances. This SIM component fail safe should be tuned to address either rank amateur inexperience or egregious driver mistakes. If it must stay it must be tuned to the effective danger zone correctly. An average driver pushing their ride hard but safely should not trip this protection.

Morgan Henstridge
27-09-2017, 03:00
Yes thank you but in due respect I’m using AI as a reference more than a comparison. Even an average productive solo run will produce a game broken experience in some circumstances. This SIM component fail safe should be tuned to address either rank amateur inexperience or egregious driver mistakes. If it must stay it must be tuned to the effective danger zone correctly. An average driver pushing their ride hard but safely should not trip this protection.

I believe the timings are based on the specific Vehicle / gearbox, not tuned for a particular user type across the board.

So it is up to the Driver to learn the vehicle behaviour with relation to the gearbox, just as it is to learn the vehicle behaviour in relation to the grip and balance etc for each particular vehicle. This is just an extra parameter.

Just because something is not what you are used to, does not automatically mean it is wrong.

braveflea
27-09-2017, 03:21
I believe the timings are based on the specific Vehicle / gearbox, not tuned for a particular user type across the board.

So it is up to the Driver to learn the vehicle behaviour with relation to the gearbox, just as it is to learn the vehicle behaviour in relation to the grip and balance etc for each particular vehicle. This is just an extra parameter.

Just because something is not what you are used to, does not automatically mean it is wrong.

Tuned was a misnomer blanket statement on my part, it's not a tune even though there is an adjustment for it but it's grayed out and on 0 anyway so I assume it as low as it will go. Maybe it's me but it's not in sync with even generic competitive driving and *apart* from the expected learning curve of each different vehicle chosen. The open wheel, higher revving cars not so much but it's there. As I mentioned in turn 5 of the horseshoe at Daytona GP in the Toyota Hybrid it has me stuck in 3rd gear bogging down in that hairpin curve is not natural or correct; I stopped playing after that happen several times. The chicane on the back stretch is a joke and dangerous.

Conversely as you are clicking away expecting your down shift, you don't want to be engaging into your lowest applicable gear to take you out of your turn late like say going into the apex especially unexpectedly. Slow response in the early models is expected but not in the late model super cars. It's a fail safe feature any way and needs to be firmly in the over-rev zone IMO.

peterCars
27-09-2017, 03:32
I have noticed that I can't down shift gears if in high revs - I'm using the shifter paddles on my G27... this is quite annoying as it makes me miss a lot of down changes :(

I've certainly noticed this in Formula A and Fanatec F1 wheel paddle shifters.... and I thought it was a hidden assist to stop me blowing up my gearbox. it is slightly annoying not that it seems to be a bug.
The real cars can change gears 50 times a second. I'd be happy with 5. I'll try the clutch sensitivity setting tonight

Morgan Henstridge
27-09-2017, 03:47
Tuned was a misnomer blanket statement on my part, it's not a tune even though there is an adjustment for it but it's grayed out and on 0 anyway so I assume it as low as it will go. Maybe it's me but it's not in sync with even generic competitive driving and *apart* from the expected learning curve of each different vehicle chosen. The open wheel, higher revving cars not so much but it's there. As I mentioned in turn 5 of the horseshoe at Daytona GP in the Toyota Hybrid it has me stuck in 3rd gear bogging down in that hairpin curve is not natural or correct; I stopped playing after that happen several times. The chicane on the back stretch is a joke and dangerous.

Conversely as you are clicking away expecting your down shift, you don't want to be engaging into your lowest applicable gear to take you out of your turn late like say going into the apex especially unexpectedly. Slow response in the early models is expected but not in the late model super cars. It's a fail safe feature any way and needs to be firmly in the over-rev zone IMO.

Agreed the modern cars should be much quicker than the Capri, which is the one I was talking about.

With the Toyota issue you are describing, with it stuck in 3rd gear, does it let you shift down if you lift?? I'm not sure if there is protection against downshifting if you have the throttle flat, but that may be a separate issue, still to do with shifting, but not the "delay" issue.

ZulfoDK
27-09-2017, 03:52
Just like in real life ;)

Eh, no - have you ever seen a formula car not being able to shift down when i higher revs?!

Maybe I should have clarified that it happens in Formula 3.5 - I'm pretty sure that I would be able to down shift from higher revs than is possible right now!

This wasn't an issue in PCars 1.

braveflea
27-09-2017, 03:54
Agreed the modern cars should be much quicker than the Capri, which is the one I was talking about.

With the Toyota issue you are describing, with it stuck in 3rd gear, does it let you shift down if you lift?? I'm not sure if there is protection against downshifting if you have the throttle flat, but that may be a separate issue, still to do with shifting, but not the "delay" issue.

No nothing happens when you lift in third, not until it predicts that you are at a safe rev limit will it respond to the downshift which is what I'm saying is set "way" too conservative.

Morgan Henstridge
27-09-2017, 03:57
OK, that may just be a vehicle that needs to be looked at where the Safe shift point is set.

But that is separate to the shift delay.

braveflea
27-09-2017, 04:14
OK, that may just be a vehicle that needs to be looked at where the Safe shift point is set.

But that is separate to the shift delay.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?51462-Slow-shifts/page4

It's not just the Toyota Prototype, I've driven Formula A, C, X and Renault and can reproduce it more on say Road America than Monaco. Also the Grand Prix cars on Road America, so far that's what I've driven. If I'm clicking away trying to get into a lower gear as I actuate a turn and it's only responding as it see's fit, is that not shift delay? AKA the games rendition of real world protection in the race world.

I'm responding to the spirit of the OP's original post on page 1, which is more in line to what I'm referring to; maybe I'm confusing the issue sorry. He mentions 100% gas I'm not anywhere near that, it's just normal race driving I'm referring to but the same problem.

Morgan Henstridge
27-09-2017, 04:17
The one i was initially responding to was about a claim that the built in Delay for the Capri in particular was activating After the shift was completed.

That is different to the Shift Protection which is based on RPM, not a time limit.

They both affect shifting, but separate systems.

braveflea
27-09-2017, 04:32
The one i was initially responding to was about a claim that the built in Delay for the Capri in particular was activating After the shift was completed.

That is different to the Shift Protection which is based on RPM, not a time limit.

They both affect shifting, but separate systems.

Well I don't claim to understand all the in's and out's of the settings yet all I know is shift delay is grayed out in the control area and set to zero anyway whatever it is, shift protection real or imagined, personal preference whatever there is an unreasonable if not unnecessary down shift shift delay or hindrance.

*Again I'm paddle shifting, manual, auto clutch so I'm sure things vary as applicable.

cpcdem
27-09-2017, 05:30
H-pattern manuals leave you on your own. Nothing there to stop you slamming it into any gear at speed.


Makes sense, but when Damage is disabled in the options, does doing so have any bad consequence for the driver/car? If not, and if doing that does give extra engine breaking, then it will be abused for faster lap times. Sorry, I don't have an H pattern shifter to test this myself.

AitchPattern
27-09-2017, 10:50
The one i was initially responding to was about a claim that the built in Delay for the Capri in particular was activating After the shift was completed.

That is different to the Shift Protection which is based on RPM, not a time limit.

They both affect shifting, but separate systems.

Well we need to agree to disagree on this on!

I've tested this again and used a my iPhone to capture my screen and hand in slow motion and will post my results.

I am 100% correct that the delay is present AFTER/DURING I select a gear. I have no idea what magic could somehow predict it before hand? It happens after I select the gear because it's me to determined the input.

I press button, game does as it's told!

Because otherwise, what you are suggesting is that it's doing it before I even a select a gear? Which I'm sorry, is just is not possible!

Why is this impossible,
Because the game has no idea what gear I'm going to select and when, it only activates the gear animation/movement process AFTER I tell it to do so!

AFTER I select my gear manually!

So I'm Sorry to disagree with you, but on my game, gears are ONLY selected AFTER I physically select them!

And AFTER I have physically selected them, the game begins its pre programmed delayed gear change, and takes over .5 of a second to then make a full gear to gear, gear change.

How to reproduce my way.

Sit in neutral.
Film screen and shifter.
Dip clutch.
Enable any gear (as quick as possible / race like) time taken (measured roughly on my rig to be around .25s)

The OSD/HUD/ENGINE will ONLY BEGIN its changing process AFTER I select the gear like I said.p, and this process appears to take around .25s from user input to completion!

The animation/HUD UPDATE/Audio etc are only receiving input of what to do AFTER I select the gear (obviously, which I said, but you disagree with)

And doing so takes the game around .25s for it engage/disengage a gear, even though it takes me (physically) half that.

So by my "estimation" it takes me around .4 of a second average to go from X>Y manually (depending on gear / push down reverse etc on CSS)

BUT the game takes around

.25 to get to neutral (disengage gear)

and

.25 (to engage new gear)

And I somehow need to match my physical input to this arbitrary timed code, that I'm not aware of, have no visibility of, have not been in formed of, (guitar hero style)

While being told that this "slow gear change" is actually taking place "before" I even select the gear?

For what it's worth,
I don't care to much as we are still using the excellent PCars 1 for our league as not everyone have purchased pcars 2 it yet.

But it's safe to say they wont. However, even in E sports, you can't ask people to match their physical input to the game output in a competitive environment, without some kind of visibility of that! (Be it a flashing guitar hero coloured rhythmic button or otherwise)

You are expecting uses to know, not only the arbitrary time of gear change SMS decided to put in as a delay for every car, we also need to know every car, ever gear change that car could possible make (push down reverse 3/5etc and we must calulate the time needed to make that change, on that vehicle, in that year, by that manufacture, then calculate the distance / time for moving between gear 2/5 for example, then match our physical input, to that of the exact time we have calculated, in the hope that not only that happens to be by chance the same time input by SMS, but that it matches the gear change (guitar hero) rhythmic requirement for the gear change to be successful?

Not only that, this goes against every other simulated driving experience currently in exsistance, yet we can change gears in all other cars without even using a clutch, including road cars etc? It's like the "real life" argument is used when it fits, then the "it's a game" argument it's used in the very next sentence?

With that said, to state that this is somehow NOT happening upon engage/disengage a gear, and is somehow doing it before hand is impossible for to discuss/converse with, as that's impossible to reason with, I don't believe that you sincerely believe that it's NOT happening and triggered upon user input/after button is pressed (there by after the fact).

I can assure you 100% my game only begins a process of any kind AFTER it has received input from me, be that gear change or throttle etc..

I press button, game begins process.
If you disagree, i appreciate that, but let's just agree to disagree.

Tepp
27-09-2017, 11:20
AitchPattern, you just copy/paste your posts??? You already have been answered, this is simulation of the delay which is authentic. Just change the gears slower on this car, that's it!!!

AitchPattern
27-09-2017, 11:39
AitchPattern, you just copy/paste your posts??? You already have been answered, this is simulation of the delay which is authentic. Just change the gears slower on this car, that's it!!!

I agree it's authentic! I'm not disagreeing here?
Everyone is missing the actual point though?

Let me explain simply!

User presses button on keyboard/controller etc game takes .25s to change gear (correct and I agree)

H pattern users:
A H pattern shifter works the same as a pad/keyboard, it's just buttons inside a shifted shaped object.
But instead of "pressing a button, they have to "physically" move (but the game does not ever see this movement as it ONLY sees button inputs)

So the time it takes me to move my hand from my wheel, to my shifter, to dip my clutch, then to move the shifter down the gate (from neutral) into the chamber, down the chamber and into the selected gear takes well over the time it takes to press a button on a pad or controller... agreed?

If you agree to the above, you agree that there is a amount of time, unaccounted for that H are subject to, that controller / pad users etc are not... let's say .25s

Now..
When those H pattern users do the above movements, taking a total of .25s (which is categorically unseen by the game, and not accounted for) when they "PRESS" the button inside the shifter (when the shifter hits the bottom of the chamber and pushes button 2 for example) the GAME is ONLY THEN told to change gear... agreed?


So, when the game is told to change gear, it follows the same process as the pad/keyboard users.

It says enable gear change process, minimum time = .25s

BUT NEGATES the PHYSICAL movements we just made!
Therefore H users are subject to an additional (phsical delay) that the game CANT see and therefore gear changes take longer. Agreed?

(I'm ok wih longer gear changes for H users by the way, we agree / accept to this in return for a more immersive drivelling experience)

However,
We should NOT be subject to the "Minimum delay" as we are PHSICALLY doing the physical movement that the minimum delay was added to emulate for pad users etc.

PAD and Keyboard users can now, and always will, be able to shift quicker than any H pattern (authentic) shifter/driver in PCars2!

Fact!

I agree with the delay (for pad/keyboard users or those who are NOT using H pattern shifters) but the point is, WE got penalised because the GAME doesn't know the difference between my shifter and a keyboard or a controller. So it treats them EXACTLY the same, when it catagoricslky should NOT!

But the point is totally being missed here by those thinking I'm "having a go"?

If this issue doesn't affect you, don't make it worse by having a go at me for trying to clarfly the point. If someone would actually sit down and see what I'm trying to say, instead of seeing it as a complaint they would understand the point.

No other game/sim or even physical vehicle currently in existence behaves this way!

Solution, reduce the delay for H pattern users!
Will SMS do it...
NO!

Why not?
Because they are concerned that people will use mapped buttons to get faster gear changes on the keyboard/pad etc.

The reason isn't that it's authentic, it's that it's so simple that it's flawed, and this has been put in place to stop users taking advantage of it.

So what the problem, why are you mentioning this?
H pattern shifters are now completely redundant in PCars because you can now drive any vehicle EVEN the Capri FASTER using auto clutch, or sequential or flappy (non of which this car actualmy has in real life) lol :D so completely utterly un authentic! The opposite of what they were trying to achieve!

The point here is, H patterns have essentially been removed from the game as they are treated like button inputs and therefore are treated like controllers and keyboard inputs (physical delay is ignored)

eracerhead
27-09-2017, 11:51
I think that buttons dedicated to shifting Up and Down (i.e.: paddle shifters, controller buttons) could still have the delay to mimic the physical shifting time. But buttons assigned to an H-shifter should not have a delay. Honestly, would someone be able to assign enough buttons on a controller (or fumble over a keyboard) to cover all gears, and therefore use them as a time saving exploit? And is it that big a deal to warrant souring H-shifter user's general game experience?

E-sports may be an interesting endeavor for some, but if game decisions like this favor their needs over people just looking to enjoy the driving experience, I know what direction I'd prefer to take.

AitchPattern
27-09-2017, 11:55
I think that buttons dedicated to shifting Up and Down (i.e.: paddle shifters, controller buttons) could still have the delay to mimic the physical shifting time. But buttons assigned to an H-shifter should not have a delay. Honestly, would someone be able to assign enough buttons on a controller (or fumble over a keyboard) to cover all gears, and therefore use them as a time saving exploit? And is it that big a deal to warrant souring H-shifter user's general game experience?

E-sports may be an interesting endeavor for some, but if game decisions like this favor their needs over people just looking to enjoy the driving experience, I know what direction I'd prefer to take.

Exactly!

This is exactly what I'm trying to say.
I'm not the best at explaining as people see my way of communication as rude/direct or complaining.

You absolutely understand and you totally get it.
Thank you sir!

Tepp
27-09-2017, 11:55
AitchPattern,

Can you please try following:
1. While driving at max revs, fully press the clutch pedal (and release the gas pedal),
2. immediately put the stick in neutral,
3. wait 1 second,
4. put the stick in next gear position,
5. immediately release the clutch pedal (and press the gas pedal)

Is the next gear engaged? Is there any artificial delay between actions 4 and 5?

Let us know the results.

MaximusN
27-09-2017, 11:56
Exactly!

This is exactly what I'm trying to say, but I'm not the best at explaining as people see my way of communication as rude/direct of complaining.

You absolutely understand and get it.
Thank you sir!

Ditto :)

dominiczeth
27-09-2017, 12:23
Strange thing is: With Manual Clutch Enabled there shouldn't be a Delay like Shifting with Paddles and automatic Clutch. I know that this car has a delay, in the real thing you can't shift fast (watch the famous Capri Video).

Morgan Henstridge
27-09-2017, 12:40
I think the misunderstanding is that there are multiple gear related issues being discussed in the 1 thread here.

1) There is the issue of the Downshift protection, which is RPM related and only affects down shifts.

2) There is the Shift Delay which affects up shifts also and is timing related, and not related at all to RPM.

@AitchPattern - when a controller for example, is changing gear, they have 1 button press, yes. But this button press still disengages the current gear, and engages the next gear. With a H Pattern, you are going the exact same steps by disengaging the current gear and then engaging the next gear.

Try what Tepp says above, as I have also tested this myself elsewhere, and the delay is across the shifting procedure, NOT after the new gear is engaged.

Casey Ringley
27-09-2017, 12:41
Engine braking torque can skyrocket, causing the driven wheels to lock up and lose control. But yeah, with damage turned off a large part of the disincentive for abusive shifting falls away too.

gandy
27-09-2017, 14:15
Shift request comes in
Look at what the engine rpm would be if the shift is successful at that instant
If engine rpm > threshold, reject the shift request
.

To me it should be If Shift protection is off and engine rpm is to high then damage to the gear box should have a chance of happening ( depending on speed and rpm ) and a greater chance of wheel lock up and loss of control could happen. Wheel lockups do happen at the moment when you downshift and the rpm/speed is on the high side but other than spinning out there is no risk to miss shifting.

Ive been trying my best to damage a gear box but it seems its not modelled same as changing gears on a manual H-pattern does not require a clutch when you have the clutch set to manual. It still behaves as an automatic clutch.

Doctor_Tofu
27-09-2017, 14:16
So to be clear... there are some cars where the H Pattern shifters and shifting isnworking as intended right? Last night in a Formula Rookie race, I mis-shifted from 4th to 2nd and blew my engine completely. Felt like an idiot when that red “Terminal” failure message flashed across my screen

gandy
27-09-2017, 14:22
So to be clear... there are some cars where the H Pattern shifters and shifting isnworking as intended right? Last night in a Formula Rookie race, I mis-shifted from 4th to 2nd and blew my engine completely. Felt like an idiot when that red “Terminal” failure message flashed across my screen

Blowing up an engine is pretty easy to do ( did it myself ) and working as intended i believe, forcing a manual gearbox in to a gear with out using the clutch should have a chance of damage to the gear box and miss shifting downwards should have a chance of engine/gearbox damage if you dont catch it quick enough. There is not even gearbox grinding sounds so it sound like something that might never be modelled or something that is broken in the current version of the game.

Doctor_Tofu
27-09-2017, 14:27
Hmmmmmm that’s interesting. The Formula Rookie cars are the only cars I’ve found so far that the manual clutch actually works better when using. So dumping the clutch and being in 2nd from 4th was a bad idea lol

braveflea
27-09-2017, 14:58
I think that buttons dedicated to shifting Up and Down (i.e.: paddle shifters, controller buttons) could still have the delay to mimic the physical shifting time. But buttons assigned to an H-shifter should not have a delay. Honestly, would someone be able to assign enough buttons on a controller (or fumble over a keyboard) to cover all gears, and therefore use them as a time saving exploit? And is it that big a deal to warrant souring H-shifter user's general game experience?

E-sports may be an interesting endeavor for some, but if game decisions like this favor their needs over people just looking to enjoy the driving experience, I know what direction I'd prefer to take.

If it's realism that the game is trying to achieve then do that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X1b9MctGdA The cars I have been referring to and the specific tracks reflect this idealism.

Tepp
27-09-2017, 16:08
braveflea: eracerhead is talking about the issue #2 (in Morgan Henstridge's classification, see above), while you are showing us the example of #1. Lost in translation ... :)

AitchPattern
27-09-2017, 19:36
I think the misunderstanding is that there are multiple gear related issues being discussed in the 1 thread here.

1) There is the issue of the Downshift protection, which is RPM related and only affects down shifts.

2) There is the Shift Delay which affects up shifts also and is timing related, and not related at all to RPM.

@AitchPattern - when a controller for example, is changing gear, they have 1 button press, yes. But this button press still disengages the current gear, and engages the next gear. With a H Pattern, you are going the exact same steps by disengaging the current gear and then engaging the next gear.

Try what Tepp says above, as I have also tested this myself elsewhere, and the delay is across the shifting procedure, NOT after the new gear is engaged.

Yes I agree with you, but again the point I'm making, it has again been missed (but not missed by the other WMD members/users on the previous pages)

In all honesty, it's clear that I'm incapable of translating this issue into text clearly enough as only some people are understanding the underlying math behind the issue at hand.

I'm not disagreeing witch anything you wrote, or any of the mechanics of it!

PHYSICS is!

Maybe one of the others can translate this better than I can, but for now at least it has been reported and it's now visible. I guess the longer the game is out, the more H patterns get used, this thread will be revived when people start to go ..... AHHHHHH I see now! My H pattern and Clutch now have NO place in PCARS as they are 100% entirely redundant.

Until then,
I'll bow out as I genuinely don't know how to make it any simpler.

What you wrote, bears zero correlation to the point I was making, which is why we are not on the same page, which is a shame...

The only way I could try to explain but haven't is this.

GAME CODE = BUTTON INPUT (GEAR SHIFT UP/DOWN) = .25s

The game ONLY cars that a button was pressed and then changes gear based on a preset delay.

We all agree with this delay.

When I use my keyboard/mouse/flappy/sequential there is ZERO problem (yay)

If I map GEAR1/2/3/4 etc to a BUTTON on my H PATTERN however, instead of just moving the virtual gear box to that location as soon as my shifter presses that button. The game INVOKES THE "GAME CODE" ABOVE!


What the GAME is NOT TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION is that when the GAME executes the "GAME CODE" (when I press the button inside my shifter) that I ALREADY traveled a .25s delay from the point in which I RELASED GEAR BUTTON 1, traveled down the chamber into neutral, navigated from neutral to the new correct chamber, down the correct chamber and ONLY THEN did my shifter PHSICALLY PRESS the GEAR 2 BUTTON (which then invokes GAME CODE above again.

So the path of a button users = .25s
The full path for a H pattern user is.

Disengage Gear 1 button by moving shifter out of GEAR 1 location.

(GAME STOPS RECORDING ALL H PATTERN USER IPUTS AT THIS POINT)

From here on the USER is making physically moments by moving his shifter down the chamber, out of the chamber, into neutral, selecting the new chamber, entering the new chamber, down the new chamber...

ONLY WHEN HE REACHES THE BOTTOM DOES THE GAME RECORD ANY INPUT FROM THE USER.

And the game sees this as a GEARUP/DOWN input and THEREFORE INVOKES "GAME CODE" above.

Meaning we have to wait the .25s for the gear to engage as the game has NO IDEA WHAT WE JUST DID BETWEEN DISENGAGING GEAR 1 AND INVOKING GEAR 2. As that's not visible to game.

So that delay SHOULD BE REMOVED FOR H PATTERN USERS AS WE DEALT OURSELVS MANUALLY.

Every single sim in exsistnace knows and does this.
Phsical cars don't start the gear changing process when the user moves the shifter to the bottom of the chamber, making you ride the clutch for another .25s ...

I think I can't explain this any simpler, I struggle to make it any simpler and I'm so glad many users here understand. I hope someone who can translate this better than I can steps in.

The easiest way to test this, is simply...
CAPRI
Sit in neutral
Dip clutch
Move gear in and out of 1st and into 2nd gear quickly. You will see that the point in which you release the GEAR 1 button and INVOKE GEAR 2 button is ignored but is added multiplicatively.

The game is treating H pattern button inputs EXACTLY the same as pressing a button on a Keyboard or a Controller. Negating the actual physical real world (delay) the users take to actually do that exact movement is delay is added to cover.

For now, I can't break it down anymore, I will try to find an even simp,ear way, but until then I'm back to PCars 1 as we have a big fun weekend ahead :)

AitchPattern
27-09-2017, 19:38
AitchPattern,

Can you please try following:
1. While driving at max revs, fully press the clutch pedal (and release the gas pedal),
2. immediately put the stick in neutral,
3. wait 1 second,
4. put the stick in next gear position,
5. immediately release the clutch pedal (and press the gas pedal)

Is the next gear engaged? Is there any artificial delay between actions 4 and 5?

Let us know the results.

YES!

There is a delay between 4 and 5 the other WMD members verify this too please see previous page.

Tepp
27-09-2017, 20:05
YES! There is a delay between 4 and 5 the other WMD members verify this too please see previous page.

1. "YES" what? The gear was engaged or not?
2. Proof? Video?
3. Who? Morgan Henstridge says: "I have also tested this myself elsewhere, and the delay is across the shifting procedure, NOT after the new gear is engaged." Which is the opposite!

finagle69
27-09-2017, 20:36
Strange thing is: With Manual Clutch Enabled there shouldn't be a Delay like Shifting with Paddles and automatic Clutch. I know that this car has a delay, in the real thing you can't shift fast (watch the famous Capri Video).

https://youtu.be/ScNCjLFDHyM?t=5m39s

If I shift like that in the game, Mis-shift every time...

Tepp
27-09-2017, 20:51
If I shift like that in the game, Mis-shift every time...
Again: this is simulation of the real delay in some (older) gearboxes. This is authentic!

finagle69
27-09-2017, 20:55
Again: this is simulation of the real delay in some (older) gearboxes. This is authentic!

This is a vid of the actual car in question... which this thread started over.

Tepp
27-09-2017, 21:14
This is a vid of the actual car in question... which this thread started over.

OK, now I see your point. You're right, seems it's not so authentic as they say. Or maybe they just had a different Capri?

Anyway, as I said before, I don't like the implementation, I would remove the artificial delay from H-shifter at all, because it already has natural delay in comparison to paddles/button. Also because there is no way to physically restrict user from putting the gear, in current state it really brakes the immersion as those mis-shifts are very annoying.

senn
27-09-2017, 23:12
https://youtu.be/ScNCjLFDHyM?t=5m39s

If I shift like that in the game, Mis-shift every time...

Not if you heel toe downshift, like in the video of the actual race car. I can get quick downshifts like that. It's tough to heel toe every downshift, and it kinda changes your driving style. Whether it's quicker with assists on, no. Look at the leaderboards, most people near the top drive with assists on. A computer will be quicker than a brain in this kind of situation, that's why things like ABS/TCS etc exist.

EDIT: TL;DR - You need to rev match on downshifts if you aren't using autoclutch or it will mis-shift, just like a real race car that doesn't have synchros.

faisalero
27-09-2017, 23:18
i got a fanatec SQ shifter and i noticed that when i use it i miss shift because of the this protection please remove it as it prevents us from down shifting fast enough its like i have to wait for the game to allow me to down shift and it messes up my braking .

if its possible make this protection only when using controller pads or keyboard or wheel pedals and make it work normally when an H shifter is used for the game .

AitchPattern
27-09-2017, 23:27
1. "YES" what? The gear was engaged or not?
2. Proof? Video?
3. Who? Morgan Henstridge says: "I have also tested this myself elsewhere, and the delay is across the shifting procedure, NOT after the new gear is engaged." Which is the opposite!

I'm not sure what more you want from me?
Try it yourself, it's there as stated by the other users AND WMD members in this very thread?

It's not just me saying this, it's all over Reddit, or league forums, these forums and here in this very thread verified by actual WMD members (more than 1) yet there is ONLY 1 saying it's not there, but they aren't actually testing the correct thing.

As Finagle69 stated the game CAN NOT replicate the authentic gear change demonstrated in the video, as the game is hard coded to basically ignore H patterns and treat them the same as key inputs. It also (technically) negates the use of a physical clutch (albeit a clutch input is recognised) the time to use it isn't (when coupled with a H)

Basically Clutches and H patterns are completely redundant when used together in PCars2 because of a design choice that Hinders the end user and actually goes AGAINST the laws of physics and the manufactures specification of the vehicle and goes against ever other sim racing title in existence. It also goes against our driving techniques as we are told not to ride the clutch, however you HAVE to when using H+ Clutch to compensate for a built in delay.

Whats even more bizarre is in your very next post you actually agree with me?

After you spent 3 posts having a go at me telling me to stop discussing it and that i was wrong???

So do you agree now, are on board?
If so great, the more the merrier :)

As you can see this ONLY affects H + Clutch users and we are a tiny minority, so I don't suspect a fix will be presented to us. But at least there is visabilty of the issue, more users are aware of it and as the days/months go by if anyone experiences it when they try out other cars or get wheels etc for xmas, they will find this when they realise the H and Clutch are essentially ignored in this game and technically redundant, as it's quicker, easier, better to just change without even using the clutch (auto clutch) and/or use flappy paddles which this car doesn't even have :-/???

braveflea
27-09-2017, 23:40
I'm feeling that these protections, rev-limiters, et...ad nauseum are new to the developers as if when you first discovered that you need to keep up--and will be ironed out like all new games will. Until then I will enjoy the Rolex 24 track that I attend every year and will hobbel along until reality sets in with the developers akin to what they were told vs the real-real world on track. Until then PC1 is king-like 09/27/2017 .

Aldo Zampatti
27-09-2017, 23:44
I've recorded a video. Fully manual no assists... I'll post it as soon as its uploads and processes. To me, what I felt today with the capri, was pretty good... I couldn't shift faster because of lack of personal coordination possible, but was as fast as my own car or more.

braveflea
27-09-2017, 23:57
I've recorded a video. Fully manual no assists... I'll post it as soon as its uploads and processes. To me, what I felt today with the capri, was pretty good... I couldn't shift faster because of lack of personal coordination possible, but was as fast as my own car or more.

And I would agree as far as I'm involved, that the "Formula X" car is not perfect--relative to this conversation, but *very good* and intuitive to drive in this class. I agree that I haven't yet discovered all that is to offer in this rendition of PC2. Thank you Slightly Mad Studios for your effort!

Aldo Zampatti
28-09-2017, 00:27
Here it goes... it took forever to encode and quality sucks (YTube really kills quality)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW0dgUOve_w

(don't judge the driving, I've entered a race without even practice with the car/track combo) ;)

AitchPattern
28-09-2017, 01:22
Hey Aldo,

In not sure what this video is meant to say?
Unfortunately is doesn't address any part of the discussion?

This is where I think we are all out of sync (pun intended) as this video is just you driving the Capri? I agree the Capri can be driven perfectly like this.

However this video It's not even remotely close to addressing the issue we're actually discussing.

Thing we need to see in a video to verify this.
Telemetry (not present)
Clutch input (not present)
See physical shifter in same or time coded video (not present)
Telemetry displaying input from H to PC
Telemetry of PC input (gear selected) to Pcars 2 change taking effect.

The only way a video can verify this, is to have telemetry up (as we can't tell if you were even using a clutch or auto clutch was enabled) be able to see your shifter and time coded and synced (with a clacker etc) and the rest of the above, this is just someone driving a Capri which we can all do perfectly fine under most conditions.

Without those basics this video has entirely missed the point?

It may as well be a video of an F1 car on Assetto Corsa doing a rally ;)

I can drive the Capri exactly like your video above.
I agree that it can be driven this way perfectly fine.
I have no issues with your video or what you are saying, however it has absolutely nothing (even remotely) to do with the issue at hand :)

but I appreciate the effort :)

Aldo Zampatti
28-09-2017, 01:29
Hey Aldo,

In not sure what this video is meant to say?
Unfortunately is doesn't address any part of the discussion?

This is where I think we are all out of sync (pun intended) as this video is just you driving the Capri? I agree the Capri can be driven perfectly like this. It's not even remotely close to the issue we're actually addressing.

The only way a video can verify this, is to have telemetry up (as we can't tell if you were even using a clutch or auto clutch was enabled) and we can't see your shifter? Without either of those 2 things this has entirely missed the point? It may as well be a video of an F1 car on Assetto Corsa?

I can drive the Capri exactly like your video above.
I agree that it can be driven this way perfectly fine.
I have no issues with your video or what you are saying, however it has absolutely nothing (even remotely) to do with the issue at hand :)


I could've used the full telemetry, yes. But Distracted me so you can only see throttle/brake input. Now you have two choices:

a) Believe me that I was using clutch and fully manual
b) Don't believe me and live with doubt forever because I will not do a multi-cam video with my (crappy) G25 shifter and my cluttered cockpit.

What I wanted to show that shifting fully (fully!!) manual is fast enough and with practice it could be faster. it's being months (maybe more than a eyer) since I don't race PCARS(1 or 2) in fully manual H pattern. So I think that after 3 or 4 hours of practice I can get the grasps and shift 15/20% faster consistently.

My H shifter of the G25 is 9 years old and by far the worst out there. So that's a factor too. Many times I miss positioned the gear and missed a shift.

This is everything I can show/say/defend. But I'm not being just impartial and saying "PCARS2 is fine". I wanted to demonstrate it and (In my humble opinion) I think I did. I can shift like that with any H-pattern car in PC2.

AitchPattern
28-09-2017, 01:32
I could've used the full telemetry, yes. But Distracted me so you can only see throttle/brake input. Now you have two choices:

a) Believe me that I was using clutch and fully manual
b) Don't believe me and live with doubt forever because I will not do a multi-cam video with my (crappy) G25 shifter and my cluttered cockpit.

What I wanted to show that shifting fully (fully!!) manual is fast enough and with practice it could be faster. it's being months (maybe more than a eyer) since I don't race PCARS(1 or 2) in fully manual H pattern. So I think that after 3 or 4 hours of practice I can get the grasps and shift 15/20% faster consistently.

My H shifter of the G25 is 9 years old and by far the worst out there. So that's a factor too. Many times I miss positioned the gear and missed a shift.

This is everything I can show/say/defend. But I'm not being just impartial and saying "PCARS2 is fine". I wanted to demonstrate it and (In my humble opinion) I think I did. I can shift like that with any H-pattern car in PC2.

As can I :)

There isn't a single car that I can't drive in PCars 2 in one way or another.
But that's not the issue I'm afraid, but I still appreciate the effort.

As I said though this video is missing every single bit of information needed.
Not 1 single piece of required info is present on this video that references the issue in the discussion.

It contains absolutely NO information, data, or points pertaining to the issue at hand?

If I post a video now of the car missing every gear, just in the same format as yours, would you believe that ;) I can do that in less than 10 mins if you want?

To be honest, I think what's happening here is people don't understand the point, and think it's an attack etc. It's not. I'm happy to wait for someone who can point this out and clarify it to step forward as I honestly can't simplify it any more.

Luckily there are other SMS forum members, WMD members, Reddit users etc who understand the underlying issue.

Sure we can all still drive these cars lol :) it's not like we suddenly can't, I had the Capri out earlier today at the Nords! Drives and sounds absolutely brilliant, even though it's being driven (technically incorrectly).

What we're pointing out is a technical limitation in the game code that causes an issue to us (a tiny minority of H Clutch Group 5 users) that has been added to benefit ESports, problem is no one though far enough ahead :) as this bug, actually completely and utterly eradicates the need/use for manual clutch and H pattern user from single player and particularly online competitive racing INCLUDING eSports!

Why? Because the game is QUICKER to change gear via a mapped keyboard button, pad, flappy paddle, button on wheel or using auto clutch etc than it is to use a H + Clutch.

So by adding a delay to stop people cheating with fast gear changes, they actually completely and utterly borked actual H + Clutch input lol :D

Can we work around it. Sure :)
We just drive like you did in your video (only better) or use auto clutch, or use sequential, or use a pad, or use flappy paddle, or use a keyboard :)

Is the code utterly borked in that area?
Absolutely, unequivocally and categorically! (That's a hold statement I hear you say)

Well, unfortuetly science is on my side!
This bug is observable, repeatable, testable and verifiable, (which is the absolute foundations of my personal career path) which means, I can verify, repeat, replicate this test anywhere, anytime.

That's an Absolute unquestionable FACT!

It's so simple to recreate, and yet it hurts my brain trying to simplify into text, and then watch the point get constantly missed post after post lol :D

To whoever brings this thread back from the dead in X months due to this becoming a bigger issue as more people figure out and find out that they can not only change gears on some cars WITHOUT EVEN DIPPING A CLUTCH (you can literally select any gear, at any speed without lifting or enabling the clutch and doing absolutely no damage to the engine in H pattern vehicles) and/or when they do, get penalised for it lol :D

Hello :D

peterCars
28-09-2017, 01:37
Eh, no - have you ever seen a formula car not being able to shift down when i higher revs?!

Maybe I should have clarified that it happens in Formula 3.5 - I'm pretty sure that I would be able to down shift from higher revs than is possible right now!

This wasn't an issue in PCars 1.

sure I havent , but I am talking about a game with one patch so far.
upping the clutch sensitivity (even though clutch is on auto) to 100% didnt change this issue, so a bug. it is annoying me and wearing out my expensive paddle gear more quickly too.

hkraft300
28-09-2017, 02:30
Eh, no - have you ever seen a formula car not being able to shift down when i higher revs?!



Race drivers don't want to blow up their cars by downshifting too early in too high revs.
Don't over-rev the car by downshifting so aggressively.
Stop it.
Please.
Get some help.

Aldo Zampatti
28-09-2017, 02:31
Race drivers don't want to blow up their cars by downshifting too early in too high revs.
Don't over-rev the car by downshifting so aggressively.
Stop it.
Please.
Get some help.

Made me laugh :)

Morgan Henstridge
28-09-2017, 02:57
Ok, let's try and simplify so we can all get on the same page. If there is an actual issue, then I think we can all agree that we would want it fixed.

Is the point you are trying to make, that there is a delay "after" physically engaging the gear?

Aldo Zampatti
28-09-2017, 03:00
...(And please use less than 1.000.000 of characters to explain it, my ADHD won't allow to comprehend another loong post) :)

finagle69
28-09-2017, 03:38
Not if you heel toe downshift, like in the video of the actual race car. I can get quick downshifts like that. It's tough to heel toe every downshift, and it kinda changes your driving style. Whether it's quicker with assists on, no. Look at the leaderboards, most people near the top drive with assists on. A computer will be quicker than a brain in this kind of situation, that's why things like ABS/TCS etc exist.

EDIT: TL;DR - You need to rev match on downshifts if you aren't using autoclutch or it will mis-shift, just like a real race car that doesn't have synchros.

This is where I think we're all maybe talking two different issues. Downshifting like the vid is not the problem. It's upshifts. Every H pattern car has its own built in delay for allowable upshift time. Some are fine, others are definitely not. A great example is the Lotus 78D vs 98T. The 78D can be shifted as fast as I physically can. The 98T, will miss shift if I upshift as fast as I can. Watch Senna vids and you can see the 98T can be shifted faster than you or I can... And the 98T is newer than the 78D.

I'm just trying to illustrate that the delays, while I can sort of understand why they're in the game, are definitely not right.

Even iRacing does not do this. You have to be incredibly accurate in shifting in iRacing, but if you get it right, your reward is a quick shift.

The other issue with upshifting, as described by the other use at length, is that this delay is added to the physical time it takes you to release throttle and depress clutch. Do you see where this is going?

A pad or flappy paddle user just gets the baked in time delay, no exceptions. While the H user gets that same baked in delay PLUS the time taken to release throttle and depress clutch. It all adds up to an advantage to non H users in this game.

Morgan Henstridge
28-09-2017, 03:45
OK, lets stick to 1 issue at a time for the sake of simplicity.

The issue i have been talking about is the delay on the upshift with the Carpi given as an example where this is bad.

Yet if i am in gear and then clutch in and go to neutral, and wait a second, I can then throw it in gear, dump the clutch and hit the gas and i have drive instantly.

"If" the delay were applied once you are in gear, as has been indicated above, this would not be possible.

Has anyone who is saying the shift delay in the Capri is applied once the car is in gear again actually tried what i have described to see it for themselves???

EDIT -

The delay should not happen until you are out of gear, and i believe this is the expected behaviour, as if you just clutch in and back out without shifting, you wouldn't want the delay to have kicked in. Tha gamepad, even though it is 1 input, still has to simulate disengaging the current gear and selecting the next gear. I'm not sure if theres any variation in these timers or if the pad does a "Very Good" shift every time. Maybe that is the issue with this one??

MaximusN
28-09-2017, 07:30
A pad or flappy paddle user just gets the baked in time delay, no exceptions. While the H user gets that same baked in delay PLUS the time taken to release throttle and depress clutch. It all adds up to an advantage to non H users in this game.

Even if the perfect h-shift(with baked-in delay) is as fast as a paddle-shift that would be unfair. Those who shift manually and do it perfectly should be faster than someone who simply presses a button. If only for the risk of it going wrong and not being able to have two hands on the wheel. Sorry to say it, but I'd rather have the macro loophole than this delay. H-Shifters are now being punished for the macro cheat. H-Shifting is harder, if you do it well you can keep up, but not if you get a baked in delay, then you only risk making a mistake. It's so much more fun, but with such a penalty I wont consider it(at least not online) because it seriously puts me on the back foot. Not wanting to quit H-shifting altogether I'm on auto-clutch now, but it shouldn't be needed.

Isn't it possible to check the clutch-->gear-->clutch timing from within the game? If they are always in the same pattern(let's say 10ms and 15ms apart) it's pretty obvious a macro is doing the button-presses.

Fanapryde
28-09-2017, 07:42
OK, lets stick to 1 issue at a time for the sake of simplicity.
Agree on this, so: about the UPshifting.
I'm 64, have driven H-shifters all my live, in countless cars (road and race), used to fast shifting, may have had one or two misshifts.
In pCars2, the manual upshifting does not work as it should and causes misshifting (next gear does not engage) in about 60% or more of the shifts. Whatever reasons are given here...this is NOT normal.
I have fiddled with the settings (my Heusinkveld Pro pedals and Fanatec CSW shifter are working fine and are extremely well tuned) to no avail.
My beloved BMW 2002 tii (which I owned for 10 years) never had the issue mentioned (though it was not the turbo).

MarcoM
28-09-2017, 07:56
Hi,

Perhaps not tied to the downshift protection, but the engine going to idle revs is annoying as well.

I tested it this morning in the Nissan 240z-isch or something.

Steps to reproduce:
1 Cruising in 3rd gear 4000 rps.
2 Brake.
3 Press clutch and shift to 2nd gear.
4 Release clutch
5 Do not press the accelerator.

In my real car the revs would adept to the revs from the engine and the second gear I have chosen. The car in this case is propelling the engine, known as engine braking.

In pc2 engine goes to stationary revs. This is not correct. I can reproduce it. A lot of manual cars have this awkward behaviour.

Any tips on what I do "wrong"?

My real life car has done 250000 km. Transmission, clutch, and engine are still in very good condition. I don't overrev in real life, nor do I intend to in my simulations.

oops, did not realise this is the pc section. But it might be an issue on PC as well.

AitchPattern
28-09-2017, 08:38
...(And please use less than 1.000.000 of characters to explain it, my ADHD won't allow to comprehend another loong post) :)

If you don't read it, you won't understand the issue.
The data is all there.

But this issue actually flows much deeper than you think. It actually affects pretty much all manual H pattern vehicles in a myriad of ways.

For example.
A hangover of this issue is that the X-BOW R which is a 6 speed H pattern vehicle can actually be driven under the following conditions.

Manual Gears
Auto clutch OFF

YET you can drive the car flat out, never lift your foot of the accelerator and just randomly, willy nilly slam the shifter into any gear and it does so perfectly and effortlessly without any engine damage.

The Capri issue the also the same but also very different.
As a hangover of this issue, is also present with the Capri.

Aldo posted a video of him driving the Capri, but what he doesn't realise is the the Capri can be driven on FULL MANUAL with auto clutch completly disabled WITHOUT EVEN TOUCHING THE CLUTCH lol :D

Take the Capri out again, set the game to manual clutch and Manual gears, but this time only lift off the accel when you change gear, never touch your clutch.

Again again the car drives exactly like in your video, hence the video was useless.

However,
they are all hangovers from the MAIN ISSUE!

The main issue is that the game is treating all user inputs as keyboard or control pad presses. It's ignoring the fact that a H pattern requires physical movement which in turn causes a manual physical delay, as the users moves his arms etc.

A H shifter should work as it does in PCars 1 and all other sims.
The very instant (no delay) the absolute millisecond that my shifter even touches an Internal button, the game should instantly jump the gear box to that location INSTANTLY! No animation, no delay, just jump to this location NOW no questions asked!

Why I hear you cry?
But the delay... it's real... real life delay, cheaters, we need a delay etc blah blah blah...

Stop!
You missed the point again!

The delay was already added when I manually dipped the clutch, disengaged the first gear, traveled down the chamber to neutral, then from neutral to another chamber, then down that chamber and into the next gear. I added the delay myself so I should not be subject to the same gear change code as a pad user!

The problem is (like you guys) the game doesn't see this movement and therefore assumes I didn't do it.

It thinks I just pressed a button, so it plays EXACLTY the same gear change animation/procedure/code as it would as if I had pressed a button on my wheel/pad or keyboard.

Which is not only fundementally wrong, it actually makes those devices completely and utterly redundant in Project cars 2!

In a drag race you and me!

You:
XBOW - R
Manual Clutch
Manual Gears

Me
XBOW - R
Manual Clutch
Manual Gears

Are you really gonna lift off the gas, engage a clutch change gear release the clutch etc.. when you can just keep your foot flat and mash the shifter and it goes in perfectly without Damage or loss of power lol I'll leave you light years behind as you do 5 unnecessary movements per gear change?

Capri is the same (but different)
Why on earth would you drive H clutch, whe it is treated the same as a keyboard button press.

It means all the movements you do between those button presses (a shifter is just a stick pressing buttons inside a box that takes physical time to move from point a to point b) is just completely ignored?

Why do that when you can just press a button on the keyboard or wheel.

Basically, the car is undrivable with a fully working clutch and H pattern!
It's completely flawed and actually leaks into other aspects of the game.

Does it work currently yes!
This is why hardly anyone has noticed... YET!

There are actual videos of people driving cars on YouTube doing reviews. They are dipping a clutch, engaging a gear etc and saying how good it feels... but what they don't realise is that there screen is displaying the fact that absolutely none of that is required as the game is essentially ignoring it all lol :D

He was driving around wondering why people were quicker, he was driving it like a real car and was being penalised because he wasn't aware that he could essentially drive it without even clutching or lifting of the gas lol ... the fool was driving it like a real life, real world car :)

What an idiot right? /s

The game needs to stop treating H Pattern inputs as button presses and go back to how it treated them in Pcars1.

But people will get faster shifts if we do that... blah blah blah...they will use keyboards and macros... blah blah blah...

Again STOP! As you are missing the point again!


It's possible, but I would rather an authentic driving experience than this control pad only experience we are provided with in its current form!

As a total gimboid once said! "Better dead than smeg!"

That above, plus all the other data in here should honestly be enough for you guys to understand this.

If not tell Ian to let me visit the office and I'll show you lol :D but trust me, this will bite once people actually notice it.


That's the short version for you Aldo :)

Morgan Henstridge
28-09-2017, 10:36
The delay is not "Just" to simulate you moving the stick around. The delay is to also simulate the speed that these older gearboxes could actually change gears. Just because you can physically move the stick in x time does not mean the vehicle could have shifted in x time.

That is why it is not the same for all cars, and is more pronounced on the older cars, like the Capri.

I am not 100% sure where the timer starts, i'm assuming it may be from the gear disengaging, but it is 100% not starting from when the new gear is engaged. And also, does the Pad shift at this minimum exactly every time or is there a Window for the shifts to randomise it a bit?? I don't know. Maybe one of the Physics guys could comment when they have some time??

Also "there screen is displaying the fact that absolutely none of that is required" - The animation is triggered on the gear selection, as it needs to know for the animation if it is an Up shift or Down shift. This is again separate from the minimum shift timer.

Morgan Henstridge
28-09-2017, 10:53
I missed this bit.....

"However,
they are all hangovers from the MAIN ISSUE!
The main issue is that the game is treating all user inputs as keyboard or control pad presses"

The exclude this theory, simply test what has been stated numerous times......

Put the car in gear, then clutch in and go to neutral. wait a second, then throw it in gear, dump the clutch and hit the gas.

"IF" the game was as you say, treating all the inputs as Keyboard or Control pad presses, then the car would not drive away instantly in the above scenario, but it DOES drive away instantly. No delay from when the gear is engaged.

AitchPattern
28-09-2017, 11:40
I missed this bit.....

"However,
they are all hangovers from the MAIN ISSUE!
The main issue is that the game is treating all user inputs as keyboard or control pad presses"

The exclude this theory, simply test what has been stated numerous times......

Put the car in gear, then clutch in and go to neutral. wait a second, then throw it in gear, dump the clutch and hit the gas.

"IF" the game was as you say, treating all the inputs as Keyboard or Control pad presses, then the car would not drive away instantly in the above scenario, but it DOES drive away instantly. No delay from when the gear is engaged.

The delay is there. You aren't looking closely enough.
I can assure you 100% that this game, is NOT imedietly engaging the gear upon gear selection (in the Capri / using a H shifter + clutch)

And again this delay nonsese you keep referring to is NOT THE POINT. You need to move passed this to see the actual issue, you can always come back here, as we agree the delay SHOULD BE PRESENT for pad users.

And not only that, I can all but gaurentre that the developer of this particular input method has / is referencing th same code for the H input as a pad user gets when pressing a button or if I mapped the gears to a keyboard! (Which is mental)

And that this behaviour is unlike any other game in existence, and unlike its predecessors behaviour which treated H inputs as immediate (correctly) and is fundamentally disparate to the actual behaviour of the vehicle.

pCars 2 is the ONLY game ever made that actually adds latency from the point the shifter physically engages the gear, before the gear takes affect.

You can't see it, perhaps your looking at this from too high a level, but I gaurentee that the developer of this code will state that in PCars 2 X amount of time passes from when a H pattern shifter touches an internal button BEFORE the actual gear is selected (which is fundamentally incorrect) regardless of time taken by the user to make the shift.

As I said is unlike any other game in existence and/or any or real world scenario because it's not accounting for real world delay not visible to the game when using a gated shifter.

Even if it takes me 1hr to make a gear shift, it's not going to be 1hr in pcars 2.
It's going to be 1hr + the exact same latency a keyboard user gets when pressing gear up!

That's the point!
Move passed this delay nonsense as it's truly not relevant to discussion in this scenario. Honestly.

It's genuinely a minor oversight that actually, inadvertently borkes almost all H pattern and manual clutch use in this game. It's a tiny oversight in the grand scheme of things, TINY, but it actually makes H shifters and clutches completely and utterly pointless in this entire game as the game basically ignores them and anyone pressing them currently, has no idea that it's essentially lip service as the game would function exactly the same (in fact faster/better) if they just stopped doing it entirely lol :D

Even if all clutch users suddenly stopped clutching and instead either kept their foot flat or only lifted the throttle the game would still change gear successfully even on road cars like my EVO which categorically can not do this either in real life.

This delay nonsense, this real life nonsense needs to be put aside so you can see the error in the way game treats H patters inputs. It completely disregards real world delay as it can't see it.

All other sims including pcars 1 handeked shifters differently. They were tested as immiedete. Therefore some users could use keyboard mappings and macros and get fast gear changes, sure. But H patters were indeed functioning as they would IRL.

In this scenario key maps and macros don't work anymore as keys for changing gear are not treated as immediate, great.

However, as the game thinks a H pattern is just a key on my keyboard every time I move it to select a gear (press a button) it's inadvertently lumbered shifters in the same category as keys on a keyboard. Which, in turn, breaks them entirely unless they are used with auto clutch and/or are used with the myriad of vehicles that currently actually function perfectly well without a clutch at all, when IRL it's physically impossible to take and eco from 1st to 6th up over 120mph and back down again without ever using a clutch and getting some engine damage.

Tepp
28-09-2017, 11:57
AitchPattern, proof?

AitchPattern
28-09-2017, 12:16
AitchPattern, proof?

Read the last 10 pages and try it yourself using the examples provided.

That's science!
Testable, Repeatable, observable!

I urge you NOT to take my word for it, do it yourself I have provided all the information for you and the world to test it themselves. I'm not making accusations here, it's a fact, test it youself and post your own proof.

Follow any of the examples I have posted, like the other WMD members have done and agree with :D

Those who don't see the issue, are either not following the instructions or are not looking at the low level issue described (this is clear because everyone is stuck with this stupid (high level) real world delay nonsense.

Make your own proof, I've provided the all tools?
What more can I possibly give? It's not something a photo can demonstrate, it's complex and you either don't understand it, or can't be bothered to test it yourself. That's not my issue.

For what it's worth, Ian Bell PMd me directly (regarding a separate issue) and I have mentioned this to him personally and explained that many can't see the wood from the trees (with the exception of the WMD members mentioned earlier).

To the best of my knowledge this issue doesn't actually affect you personally, as your not a H user right? If so, just please stop muddying the water.

Its testable, observable, reproducible repeatable and that's how science and facts work.

I'm not saying this isn't a design choice, I'm saying it's a fact!
If it's a design choice, it's a bad one as it's essentially hindering the hardcore base users.

Why is this a problem I hear you say...
Well let's just say both WMD and PCars would likely never have existed if it wasn't for that hardcore base.

Do you remember "We are the 5%" movement that sparked WMD from the backlash of Grid..

Grid 2 took away out cockpit cam and we were told that only a minority used it!
No cockpit cam you say?
Only a minority of users actually enable it you say?
Well FU GRID were funding our own game :D

We are the 5% we're the minority then, and it essentially fuelled the project cars (community assisted racing simulator)

And yet here we are again!
But instead of a Grid 2 saying only 5% use a cockpit cam so no one gets it. We now have 2 issues. Only 0.01% want safety cars, and shifters and clutches are being nerfed in favour of the esports crowd.

This design choice, bug, whatever you want to call it, that works to appease the esport massive, actually kicks the players that essentially funded and created the 5% movement in the first place, right in the balls!

"We are the 5%" was a momentous movement!

Look what we achieved... All because they took our cockpit cam!
Now we are losing our H shifters and our clutches (and no safety cars) in favour of pad/keyboard and esports users :(

If it's a bug, then we can patch it over the coming months YAY :)
If it's a design choice! Wow!... just wow!

Grid 2 made some awful mistakes that ruined the franchise.
And if this is a design choice it's very similar to the self destruction of Grid 2!

It it's a bug, great :)
Luckily it hasn't actually been noticed by many yet (there are even sim racers streaming while use a clutch and a H, that don't actually realise that all that movement they are doing is in vain and not needed as the game works faster if you just shift without the clutch anyway and don't even lift) lol ??? :-/

I'm concerned that when people realise they have all these gadgets that the game actually ignores in favour for a built in pre programmed code, that we will be back in a we are the 0.01% situation again and I love PCars and PCars2 but I also,love my shifter and my clutch.

MaximusN
28-09-2017, 12:26
The delay is not "Just" to simulate you moving the stick around. The delay is to also simulate the speed that these older gearboxes could actually change gears. Just because you can physically move the stick in x time does not mean the vehicle could have shifted in x time.
2 things..

Is this delay the same the delay people get that just use a button to shift up? If so that's not fair to the people who go through the extra effort(and risk!) to shift manually.

And while I appreciate the authenticity of simulating a slow shifting box, it's not really doing that. A gearbox that is slow to shift is only slow because it slows you down mechanically. So you'll never actually misshift because you can't shift quicker physically(trust me, I had cars from the seventies), unless you're really handfooted and release the clutch before it's in gear(which you can feel without sight or hearing). If you take the mechanical feedback out(like in our case with h-shifters) you get this minimal arbitrary time which you have to take to go from one action to the next. And if you want to play it safe you'll always have to take a little extra, or else you will be punished/frustrated with the result: a misshift.

And to top it off the paddle shifters(with autoclutch) all get this in one neat 'macro' that never misses a beat and still takes about the same time.

AitchPattern
28-09-2017, 12:34
2 things..

Is this delay the same the delay people get that just use a button to shift up? If so that's not fair to the people who go through the extra effort(and risk!) to shift manually.

And while I appreciate the authenticity of simulating a slow shifting box, it's not really doing that. A gearbox that is slow to shift is only slow because it slows you down mechanically. So you'll never actually misshift because you can't shift quicker physically(trust me, I had cars from the seventies), unless you're really handfooted and release the clutch before it's in gear(which you can feel without sight or hearing). If you take the mechanical feedback out(like in our case with h-shifters) you get this minimal arbitrary time which you have to take to go from one action to the next. And if you want to play it safe you'll always have to take a little extra, or else you will be punished/frustrated with the result: a misshift.

And to top it off the paddle shifters(with autoclutch) all get this in one neat 'macro' that never misses a beat and still takes about the same time.

This guy absolutely gets it in its entirety!
Sanity does exist, you sir (and the others) are the only reason I haven't walked away from this situation as I want this resolved for all of us, the 0.01% :)

I know I don't speak for you, and I know I'm doing a terrible job at Explaing this to the others, but please know, the fact that YOU get it, actually helps me deal with this insanity :)

Edit:
Additionally I think Tepp is totally trolling me :D
As he keeps giving me baiting posts, but then agrees and likes posts from the people who actually acknowledge and agree with me :D

I'm so confused :D

Morgan Henstridge
28-09-2017, 13:08
2 things..

Is this delay the same the delay people get that just use a button to shift up? If so that's not fair to the people who go through the extra effort(and risk!) to shift manually.

And while I appreciate the authenticity of simulating a slow shifting box, it's not really doing that. A gearbox that is slow to shift is only slow because it slows you down mechanically. So you'll never actually misshift because you can't shift quicker physically(trust me, I had cars from the seventies), unless you're really handfooted and release the clutch before it's in gear(which you can feel without sight or hearing). If you take the mechanical feedback out(like in our case with h-shifters) you get this minimal arbitrary time which you have to take to go from one action to the next. And if you want to play it safe you'll always have to take a little extra, or else you will be punished/frustrated with the result: a misshift.

And to top it off the paddle shifters(with autoclutch) all get this in one neat 'macro' that never misses a beat and still takes about the same time.

I am not sure of the specifics of the delays across different inputs. I don't know if there is a "range" for Pad Users, or if they may have a good shift each time, eg 90% efficient, but not the 100% optimal shift each time. One of the Developers would need to comment on that to provide any specifics.

Agreed about the mechanical feedback, but the decision was taken not to let the older cars shift unrealistically fast, just because your current Sim Hardware shifter has no mechanical feedback to physically stop you.

The Delay is set for each specific car to be as close as possible to the real life data - again, this may need to be tweaked if there are edge cases where it is incorrect.

The delay range being the same for ALL input devices means there is parity. Without this, If you can shift unrealistically fast, but also faster than i can shift my fanatec shifter, which one of those "times" should be used to equalise the gamepad / paddle shift users??

Ideally we would all have force feedback shifters that could provide the mechanical feedback, but until then, i think this is a fine solution for a situation that can otherwise not be perfect for everyone.

AitchPattern
28-09-2017, 13:22
The Delay is set for each specific car to be as close as possible to the real life data - again, this may need to be tweaked if there are edge cases where it is incorrect.

The delay range being the same for ALL input devices means there is parity. Without this, If you can shift unrealistically fast, but also faster than i can shift my fanatec shifter, which one of those "times" should be used to equalise the gamepad / paddle shift users??



Ok we're nearly there :D
Do you see the problem with what you wrote?
What that scenario?

Point 1 -
The delay is set to be as close as possible for real life (great) but your forgetting that it takes a pad user 0.01 of a second to click a button and flick a finger... but it takes us 0.5 of a second to achieve the same button press.

As we need to move the arm, the gait, dip a clutch etc... so the delay for keyboard and pad users should be X but the delay for H pattern users should be Y (to compensate for our own physical mechanical delay (Y should be immediate for what it's worth)

Point 2 -
Parity on devices that are disparate?
That makes absolute ZERO sense logically, grammatically and technologically!

That's like saying this burger takes 30s to cook (but one guy has a 1000w microwave and the other has an electric oven) ???

The burger MUST be given different times for each disparate piece of equiptment as they are fundamentally different / disparate.

You categorically CAN NOT have parity (of affixed timed delay) on 2 "disparate" input devices?

Because one of those devices has a manual physical delay, and the other does not!

They are fundamentally, technologically, categorically DISPARATE by definition, design and implementation!

Parity on a fixed timed delay, on disparate input devices, honestly I think I just sprained my frontal lobe trying to digest that sentence? I mean come on.... you must know what you wrote (no offence) it's 100% nonsensical (I mean academically not personally).

Pad and keyboard users should be subject to a minimum delay (which is the minimum gear shift time for said vehicle)

H pattern users should a different delay! It should be minimum shift time for vehicle MINUS the average length if time to all the movement we need to do (which is actually LONGER than the minim shift time anyway, therefore it should be Instant for H users, just like real life and every other sim and game in existence)

MaximusN
28-09-2017, 13:26
I am not sure of the specifics of the delays across different inputs. I don't know if there is a "range" for Pad Users, or if they may have a good shift each time, eg 90% efficient, but not the 100% optimal shift each time. One of the Developers would need to comment on that to provide any specifics.

Agreed about the mechanical feedback, but the decision was taken not to let the older cars shift unrealistically fast, just because your current Sim Hardware shifter has no mechanical feedback to physically stop you.

The Delay is set for each specific car to be as close as possible to the real life data - again, this may need to be tweaked if there are edge cases where it is incorrect.

The delay range being the same for ALL input devices means there is parity. Without this, If you can shift unrealistically fast, but also faster than i can shift my fanatec shifter, which one of those "times" should be used to equalise the gamepad / paddle shift users??

Ideally we would all have force feedback shifters that could provide the mechanical feedback, but until then, i think this is a fine solution for a situation that can otherwise not be perfect for everyone.

Look I can understand what you're saying, but I don't agree with it.

In the end I feel I've done my thing and am going to invest my energy elsewhere, because this is going nowhere. I'm switching to auto-clutch, because I'm not going to put myself at an even larger disadvantage(h-shifting is already harder) while getting zilch in return. With an FFB shifter it would have been another story, but they don't exist.

braveflea
28-09-2017, 13:38
The delay range being the same for ALL input devices means there is parity. Without this, If you can shift unrealistically fast, but also faster than i can shift my fanatec shifter, which one of those "times" should be used to equalise the gamepad / paddle shift users??

My 2 cents is, paddle shifters are faster than H shifting in the real world they're instant up and down, that's why people spend the money to have them installed. Serious races invoke this as a formula so not to allow an unfair

advantage. Weekend, amateur or informal races anything goes. My stake in this is I mostly drive Formula cars so I want instant as it should be and needs to be. Specifically in PC2 the up-paddle shifting is instant the down shift is

delayed/blocked unrealistically. If in fact this is a fail safe (which that hasn't been officially stated) then place it in a bonafide rev danger zone, that's not the way it's performing now. I'm hoping that this is a standard

"new game" glitch that will be patched, if not then this rendition is a failure and waste of money for me.

*BTW like in PC1 when shifting H shifter model cars there is a delay with paddle shifters which is fine and should stay IMO.

Please I'm using "Formula" above to represent late model open wheel and prototypes and the like. I realize formula can mean other things and like the Gran Am can be mixed by it's nature.

AitchPattern
28-09-2017, 13:47
@Max and Fan

If you guys are out, I'm out!

The only reason I kept trying to explain and clarify this bug/issue/design choice was because there was a reason to keep going (those who understood)

This has been an experience though.
Having to break something down to this granular level, and still not have it understood (except by a few) has utterly diminished my faith in humanity.

I'm off to sit and rock in the corner for an hour :D

Joni Varis
28-09-2017, 14:07
I must agree that atleast on most cars the shift delay is way too much. At first i thought there was something wrong on my hardware when kept missing upshifts, until noticed there is big delay beetween when physically select the gear and when its actually applied ingame. Im no noob on racing games, but this thing has basicly forced me to use autoclutch. its simply too much of an handicap on MP to use manual clutch if others have AC.

AitchPattern
28-09-2017, 14:14
I must agree that atleast on most cars the shift delay is way too much. At first i thought there was something wrong on my hardware when kept missing upshifts, until noticed there is big delay beetween when physically select the gear and when its actually applied ingame. Im no noob on racing games, but this thing has basicly forced me to use autoclutch. its simply too much of an handicap on MP to use manual clutch if others have AC.

Hey Joni,
It's good to add another name to list, hopefully more users will continue to test this, come forward with their results and we can continue to push to get this issue fixed.

We're back on :D

Fanapryde
28-09-2017, 14:45
We're back on :D
Yes, but I get this distinct feeling, it is not going anywhere. Decisions were made and clearly carved into stone.
It's not the first and most probably not the last issue that gets wiped under the carpet because of that, sorry to say...

AitchPattern
28-09-2017, 15:07
Yes, but I get this distinct feeling, it is not going anywhere. Decisions were made and clearly carved into stone.
It's not the first and most probably not the last issue that gets wiped under the carpet because of that, sorry to say...

I really hope that's not the case, but my head is inclined to agree with you.

But my heart says,
Surly Ian Bell won't turn this into a Grid2 situation, because he knows first hand what happens to a franchise when they do that, because Pcars was created on that back of that, after terrible decisions were made by the team when Grid2 was announced.

I think he wants PCars to be a great sim, and if he knows that it's currently essentially (completely broken for sim rig users) I think he will genuinely want it fixed.

It seems like he has the iOS app and the Fast and furious franchise to cover those arcade mass market basis. So there's no need not to support the hardcore 5% that saved the company initially.

I think he wants this to be a simulator, but I genuine don't think he has visibility of this issue, as no one seems to want to admit it, even when it's been broken down to a primary school level over 11 pages.

The problem is that there is 11 pages of admin claiming this issue does not exist and denying fact, and he is obviously listening to his team (we are just grumbling moaning idiots)

The problem is, on this occasion his team are wrong!

I think if we get enough visibility of this and he tests it himself, he will bring out the good old "pop it on the list" catch phrase. But it MUST be tested under the conditions mentioned. I'll go round his office and do it for him if he wants, and then fire the admin and sit at my new desk as head of the hardcore :D

All joking aside, my head agrees with you, but I genuinely believe if Ian knows, he will want it fixed. I think the issue is, as you can see here over the last 11 pages, they are telling him it's fine, when in fact it's completely fu***d!

Fanapryde
28-09-2017, 15:20
I really hope that's not the case, but my head is inclined to agree with you.
Well, I may have been wrong on this. Just noticed that patch 1 has taken care of the 50% of the car on track or else...rule.
First corner at Oulton was killing me because I had to adapt my racing line (which I use in other sims).
Now I can take the same line without running into a penalty... :eagerness:

eracerhead
28-09-2017, 15:20
I don't see why the delay can't just be forced by the lobby/event host to prevent cheating, and let H-shifter users run the game the way they want to in single-player or like-minded MP rooms. Because it does take the enjoyment away from the game for those of us who've grown up shifting for ourselves.

Jonathan Newsam
28-09-2017, 15:23
i agree that atleast on most cars the shift delay is way too much. and think it needs shortening a little more.

AitchPattern
28-09-2017, 15:38
Well, I may have been wrong on this. Just noticed that patch 1 has taken care of the 50% of the car on track or else...rule.
First corner at Oulton was killing me because I had to adapt my racing line (which I use in other sims).
Now I can take the same line without running into a penalty... :eagerness:

Yup! But they ruined the FFB. No kerbs sensation at all? And apparently it's exactly as AJ intended! So now driving over sausages at SUGO emulates real life even more, by giving you absolutely NO indication that you in fact on a kerb?

Hopefully Jack Spade a member if the community, not an employee, can fix that as well while we try and fix this lol :D

AitchPattern
28-09-2017, 15:44
i agree that atleast on most cars the shift delay is way too much. and think it needs shortening a little more.

FTFY.... "and removed entirely for H pattern users, and put back to how it has been in every sim racing title ever made by anyone ever (including SMS Pcars1 shift etc) " :D

Awesome to see more names / users affected by this though.
The mods can't possibly ignore this is any further if the are multiple reports from League owners, WMD members, Veterans here in the community all explaining and experiencing the issue.

They can't ignore that!
I genuinely believe as soon as Ian gets wind of it, and realises his admin / mod team were wrong for burying this, I think the simracer in that self proclaimed Vin Desil lookalike, will want that sh!t fixed ASAP!

Fanapryde
28-09-2017, 15:57
Yup! But they ruined the FFB. No kerbs sensation at all? And apparently it's exactly as AJ intended! So now driving over sausages at SUGO emulates real life even more, by giving you absolutely NO indication that you in fact on a kerb?
I think you should play with the settings. I hated the out of the box FFB, but I started tinkering with it and now I have perfectly fine FFB, all kerbs, rumbles, oversteer, understeer etc... The sausages at Knockhill could give some more feedback, but I think it's there too, just have to find the sweet spot.

AitchPattern
28-09-2017, 15:59
I think you should play with the settings. I hated the out of the box FFB, but I started tinkering with it and now I have perfectly fine FFB, all kerbs, rumbles, oversteer, understeer etc... The sausages at Knockhill could give some more feedback, but I think it's there too, just have to find the sweet spot.

Na AJ changed RAW today :-/
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?51628-Jack-Spade-Custom-FFB-Files&p=1373594&posted=1#post1373594

Fanapryde
28-09-2017, 16:12
Na AJ changed RAW today :-/
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?51628-Jack-Spade-Custom-FFB-Files&p=1373594&posted=1#post1373594

I don't use them. Stubborn as I am, I want to find my own best settings...:witless:

Diablo944
28-09-2017, 16:12
Somebody here mentioned keeping things to like minded racers in a group. Do they exist in a group? I play pcars one regularly with three friends. Two use pads, one a g29, and me a t300 with three pedal setup and th8a shifter. We are playing pcars1 a lot more since pcars2 came out (go figure). None of us are now playing pcars 2.
My main reason for writing this is that the two pad users will not use manual gearchanges no matter what. The g29 user uses paddle shift, while I used to try and do full sim racing and switch between paddles and H depending on car. I often consider dumbing down the control while racing these guys as technically I am already making yhe game considerably harder for myself. The only person who ever suffers a drive through penalty is me, as in manual I am the only one who can jump the lights. Its not worth me trying to get a perfect start anymore as that additional pit run ruins my game when three of us are so closely matched when racing. As a result I am always last of the four off the line as I darent risk a jump start. They on the other hand can ram the throttle and wait for the game to give them a pseudo launch control that is linked to the start light.
If this gear limiter thing is pcars two is adding yet another reason to not use the shifter then its yet another nail in the coffin for online racing. We run full damage and no engine failures. I use the downshifts to try and keep the car under control leading into/through bends on a regular basis and this gives me my only real advantage over auto and keeps a semblance of balance. The wheel adds a smoothness without necessarily making the game easier. Though slamming into a wall or being turned 180 makes a wheel users task of getting back on track a longer and harder experience than a gamepad users instant reverse and go.
This gear selection thing is a game breaker for me as a manual driver. A toggle on/off would fix it, but it looks like thats never going to be an option. So for someone with over 500 quid in wheel, pedals, shifter, I can see my online gaming will likely be heading for an automatic dumbed down driving experience when pcars finally gets patched and the wheel is as good on pc2 as it was in pc1 (we can hope eh?). This is not a step forward to me. There seems to be a lot of potential for confusion and different thought processes on the shift process and this thread shows a lot of it.
To me personally? All I care about right this second is whether I can use the wheel/shifter/pedal setup and still be a contender with my friends. Pcars1 is showing that unless I can bring near perfection to a race, then the pad users actually have an advantage. With pcars two, if the shifter process is being 'restricted' then I can see things being even worse for me. The end result being I can see me using just the wheel and two pedals in online gaming. However I try to look at this, that sucks big time.

finagle69
28-09-2017, 16:54
I think what SMS is trying to do is have true 1:1 parity between pad/paddle/H users. This should _not_ be the case when it comes to Manual cars. If you're trying to be a "sim", H shifters should be rewarded with the possibility of the quickest shifts, up to their physical abilities. Using a pad/paddles mostly means using Auto-Clutch. Auto-Clutch is an AID. Aids should be penalized in a sim. Take a look at how iRacing does it..

I hate that i keep pointing to iRacing, because I don't like it in general. But on the issue of driver aids and H-patterns, they have that 100% spot on.

Should there be some delay to simulate the real world time it takes to shift in an older car? Sure, but an auto-clutching pad/paddle user should have an even larger delay due to using an "aid".

faisalero
28-09-2017, 17:46
i cant understand how this protection on downshifting made it to the game in the first place as it mead H shifter users absolute, its like if i want to make an FPS game on console and then want to make a port for PC then add aim assist while i'm using a mouse!!! ( destiny 2 cough ) , and i guess most of PC players use wheels so H shifters should be a priority and that protection can be implemented on consoles since most of them are going to use a game pad.

i believe this bug can be fixed there's allot of workarounds that has been mentioned in this thread that can bee adopted but please dear developers don't ignore this matter as its messing up my driving IRL

TylerDurden4321
28-09-2017, 20:43
The downshifting issues should be in a separate thread. It kinda derailed this topic that wasn't about down-shift protection, but rather about artificial sync-times in older cars.

Is that being investigated or explained why it's like this? Because it's not a problem with the Lotus 49 in other sims, for example iRacing, Assetto Corsa, Project CARS 1. In Automobilista's vintage Formula (modeled after the Lotus 49, but not licensed) and rFactor 2's Brabham from the same era.

Should I tweet some people to get some attention to this problem? Because it's unbelievably annoying.

finagle69
28-09-2017, 22:00
It makes H-pattern cars pretty un-fun to drive to be quite honest.

Gregz0r
28-09-2017, 22:42
The downshifting issues should be in a separate thread. It kinda derailed this topic that wasn't about down-shift protection, but rather about artificial sync-times in older cars.

Is that being investigated or explained why it's like this? Because it's not a problem with the Lotus 49 in other sims, for example iRacing, Assetto Corsa, Project CARS 1. In Automobilista's vintage Formula (modeled after the Lotus 49, but not licensed) and rFactor 2's Brabham from the same era.

Should I tweet some people to get some attention to this problem? Because it's unbelievably annoying.The Lotus 98T in particular's gearbox in-game has been basically broken since before the PC1 release. The gaps between the gears are hilariously long, and the car visibly dips between shifts - This is not how an F1 car of any vintage should be shifting.
It's a shame, as this car has no other contemporary rival in the game, for mid Turbo F1 fans, like us. This car is in dire need of some TLC from the devs!

Flamaros
28-09-2017, 23:22
I have noticed that I can't down shift gears if in high revs - I'm using the shifter paddles on my G27... this is quite annoying as it makes me miss a lot of down changes :(

Same for me, I just can't race rally cross with this issue. I'll prefer to learn how to down shift correctly by having some damages on the gear box instead of having a control that simply doesn't respond (which can't be properly anticipated because there is no feedback).

Flamaros
28-09-2017, 23:42
OK that does sound like something in the system is not working as designed. What it should be doing is simple:

Shift request comes in
Look at what the engine rpm would be if the shift is successful at that instant
If engine rpm > threshold, reject the shift request

Clutch input and even current engine rpm shouldn't be a factor in the equation. The threshold right now is set at the rev limit rpm, but I think it would be a good idea to increase this to maybe 110% of rev limit.

H-pattern manuals leave you on your own. Nothing there to stop you slamming it into any gear at speed.

This is only for modern sequential gearboxes where electronic protection like this does exist.

As I know there a down shift delay, isn't it?

So If we are breaking at the same time the engine rev can decrease fast during the shift change, that why I don't think that it is a good idea to check if the gear box can support the engine revs with shift down at the instant of the user input.
This is particularly an issue for players that don't have a H-pattern controller.


I is really disturbing to have an input just ignored without any feedback (maybe a particular sound, emitted by the gearbox can help).

I hope we will see an improvement on this soon, because I just can't race rally cross because of this.

stephane4985
29-09-2017, 01:15
Hello all,
this is my first post on this forum. I just register because I need to ask something that seems weird.

Maybe it is just me, so I want to validate with you guys if this is normal.

I am on PS4 and using a G29 with clutch and shifter.

Tonight I figure out Iwould pratice to learn the heel-toe technique.I was doing fine without but I would like to learn it and use it in race.

So I fired up an oval circuit and use the mustang gt, which should have a normal manual transmission, I think.

I made sure, in the settings that transmission is on manual and automatic clutch is off.

First thing I notice that is weird is that, if I use the clutch, I can change gear without problem, but if I don't use the clutch, I can also shift without problem, although I see a red N in between the gear, but thats about it. I don't even feel like there is something wrong, or hiccup or something. So this is pretty bad. As I remember in other games, maybe even in PC1, if you did not engage the clutch, you stay in N even though you put the shifter in gear. So my first question is, is this normal? Pretty much defeat the purpose of using a clutch.

Second thing that I notice is on the downshifting. As I can see, even on manual clutch and manual transmission, it seems that, on top on not having to use the clutch, the car seems to rev match automatically!!! As soon as you hit the clutch, the rpm drop to almost zero, and when you engage the gear, it goes up to near the redline. Doesn't seems right. Is it normal?

I don't really feel this is representing reality and don't feel I can practice anything with this weird behavior.

Plese tell me I am missing something, because I am a little lost right now.

Cheers!
Stephane

RacingTopsy
29-09-2017, 01:36
Have you tried a different car yet? I'm not sure the Mustang GT has a full manual transmission.

The Group A Mercedes 190E is fun to practice shifting imo. :)

woofi
29-09-2017, 07:23
Hi,

Auto clutch on or off is no difference. You can easily switch gears without the clutch. (e-type Group 44, Ferrari 330 p4, BMW 2002, etc.)

In PC1 you ended up in neutral without the clutch.

regards

braveflea
29-09-2017, 09:06
I think what SMS is trying to do is have true 1:1 parity between pad/paddle/H users. This should _not_ be the case when it comes to Manual cars. If you're trying to be a "sim", H shifters should be rewarded with the possibility of the quickest shifts, up to their physical abilities. Using a pad/paddles mostly means using Auto-Clutch. Auto-Clutch is an AID. Aids should be penalized in a sim. Take a look at how iRacing does it..

I hate that i keep pointing to iRacing, because I don't like it in general. But on the issue of driver aids and H-patterns, they have that 100% spot on.

Should there be some delay to simulate the real world time it takes to shift in an older car? Sure, but an auto-clutching pad/paddle user should have an even larger delay due to using an "aid".

I just drove the Capri paddle shifting, it's pretty fast if not instant up shifting and actually more responsive than the cars I've been complaining about on the down shift, actually it's instant down shift with no rev limiting protection at all doing so! So if this isn't officially stated somewhere that there is a limiter due to protection or whatever then what's going on here am I missing something?

Tepp
29-09-2017, 09:07
I did some tests to check what's happening with so called "delay" on up-shifts. This is to proof that there is NO extra delay for H-shifter!!! We (you) should stop speculating on that.

I used Porsche 935/77 Group 5 car at Monza Classic GP and collected some telemetry using pCARS Profiler.

1. Auto-clutch scenario (Capture_01.jpg)

241248

First of all I wanted to see how the Auto-clutch shifting looks like, how fast it will change the gears, and use it as a reference. To check that I enabled the feature in the settings and while driving I was just standing on the gas pedal, and pressed the up-shift paddle shortly before revs hit the red zone, that's all.

As you can see on the telemetry screenshot the timing is perfect: it simultaneously presses the clutch, releases the gas and puts the gear lever to neutral. Than waits 0.350s and again, simultaneously releases the clutch, puts the gear lever in the next gear position and presses the gas pedal. Perfect!

With all the respect you will not be able to replicate that manually on H-shifter, at least not every time.

2. "As-fast-as-possible" H-shifter scenario (Capture_02.jpg)

241249

In this scenario I tried to use full shifting procedure on H-shifter as fast as I can. Just to see what happens at mis-shifts, because I know that (in this game) this will lead to a mis-shift.

If you look at the telemetry, you can see that the two sub-sequential shift procedures failed. And the reason is obvious - wrong timing! My pedal work is faster than the H-pattern work. I released the clutch too early, before the shifter lever gets in position. This causes the mis-shift. As you can see the revs gets to the max, so the gear was not engaged, until I release the gas pedal, which allows to engage the gear. With "engaged" I mean when the motor is connected to the drive train.

For reference, the time between the shift lever gets from one position through the neutral to a new position (between vertical lines on the gear graph, "time in neutral") is 0.233s.

Have you checked your timing before complaining? OK, I'm not very good at that, just try yourself.

3. "Normal" shifting scenario (Capture_03.jpg)

241250

Here I wanted to show the "normal", reliable switching procedure which does not causes mis-shifts. At the same time I tried to be fast.

When we look at the screenshot, I started with both clutch and gas pedals simultaneously, then after about 0.250s, I started to move the gear lever to a next gear position, it took me 0.300s. And immediately at the same moment when this move is finished I released the clutch pedal. So as you can see:

1) the gear is engaged successfully (see the revs graph)
2) THERE IS NO ARTIFICIAL DELAY AFTER I PUT THE GEAR LEVER TO A NEW POSITION !!! I was able to release the clutch immediately and the gear was engaged without the mis-shitf.

AitchPattern, are you still here? I'm doing your homework!

4. "Waiting in neutral" scenario (Capture_04.jpg)

241251

Here I wanted to show the perfect timing when releasing the clutch, putting the lever to a gear and releasing the gas pedal at the same moment. To perform that I had to stay for a second longer in the neutral before doing that. Just to confirm that there is no extra delay here.

5. Conclusion

1) This is authentic!
2) If you are shifting manually, you have to be sure that the timing is correct.
3) Yes, the Auto-clutch is faster, because human cannot perform perfect timing every time until he/she is a robot. But if you are :), you can be as fast as the Auto-clutch!
4) Yes, this is unfair in face-to-face competition, but you can count the Auto-clutch as an assist with all the consequences. And it really is.

Best Regards
Tepp

Tepp
29-09-2017, 10:17
The downshifting issues should be in a separate thread. It kinda derailed this topic that wasn't about down-shift protection, but rather about artificial sync-times in older cars.

Is that being investigated or explained why it's like this? Because it's not a problem with the Lotus 49 in other sims, for example iRacing, Assetto Corsa, Project CARS 1. In Automobilista's vintage Formula (modeled after the Lotus 49, but not licensed) and rFactor 2's Brabham from the same era.

Should I tweet some people to get some attention to this problem? Because it's unbelievably annoying.

Check this:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?51462-Slow-shifts&p=1374876#post1374876

The answer is the other sims accept your wrong timing at manual gear changes! I also noticed that.

faisalero
29-09-2017, 10:21
I did some tests to check what's happening with so called "delay" on up-shifts. This is to proof that there is NO extra delay for H-shifter!!! We (you) should stop speculating on that.

I used Porsche 935/77 Group 5 car at Monza Classic GP and collected some telemetry using pCARS Profiler.

1. Auto-clutch scenario (Capture_01.jpg)

241248

First of all I wanted to see how the Auto-clutch shifting looks like, how fast it will change the gears, and use it as a reference. To check that I enabled the feature in the settings and while driving I was just standing on the gas pedal, and pressed the up-shift paddle shortly before revs hit the red zone, that's all.

As you can see on the telemetry screenshot the timing is perfect: it simultaneously presses the clutch, releases the gas and puts the gear lever to neutral. Than waits 0.350s and again, simultaneously releases the clutch, puts the gear lever in the next gear position and presses the gas pedal. Perfect!

With all the respect you will not be able to replicate that manually on H-shifter, at least not every time.

2. "As-fast-as-possible" H-shifter scenario (Capture_02.jpg)

241249

In this scenario I tried to use full switching procedure on H-shifter as fast as I can. Just to see what happens at mis-shifts, because I know that (in this game) this will lead to a mis-shift.

If you look at the telemetry, you can see that the two sub-sequential shift procedurse failed. And the reason is obvious - wrong timing! My pedal work is faster than the H-pattern work. I released the clutch too early, before the shifter lever gets in position. This causes the mis-shift. As you can see the revs gets to the max, so the gear was not engaged, until I release the gas pedal, which allows to engage the gear. With "engaged" I mean when the motor is connected to the drive train.

For reference, the time between the shift lever gets from one position through the neutral to a new position (between vertical lines on the gear graph, "time in neutral") is 0.233s.

Have you checked your timing before complaining? OK, I'm not very good at that, just try yourself.

3. "Normal" shifting scenario (Capture_03.jpg)

241250

Here I wanted to show the "normal", reliable switching procedure which does not causes mis-shifts. At the same time I tried to be fast.

When we look at the screenshot, I started with both clutch and gas pedals simultaneously, then after about 0.250s, I started to move the gear lever to a next gear position, it took me 0.300s. And immediately at the same moment when this move is finished I released the clutch pedal. So as you can see:

1) the gear is engaged successfully (see the revs graph)
2) THERE IS NO ARTIFICIAL DELAY AFTER I PUT THE GEAR LEVER TO A NEW POSITION !!! I was able to release the clutch immediately and the gear was engaged without the mis-shitf.

AitchPattern, are you still here? I'm doing your homework!

4. "Waiting in neutral" scenario (Capture_04.jpg)

241251

Here I wanted to show the perfect timing when releasing the clutch, putting the lever to a gear and releasing the gas pedal at the same moment. To perform that I had to stay for a second longer in the neutral before doing that. Just to confirm that there is no extra delay here.

5. Conclusion

- This is authentic!
- If you change gears manually, you have to be sure that the timing is correct.
- Yes, the Auto-clutch is faster, because human cannot perform perfect timing every time until he/she is a robot. But if you are :), you can be as fast as the Auto-clutch!
- Yes, this is unfair in face-to-face competition, but you can count the Auto-clutch as an assist with all the consequences. And it really is.

Best Regards
Tepp

i have no issues doing up shifting its downshifting that's messing up my tempo especially when im going fast and want to brake hard and late you down shift with H shifter from 4th gear to 3ed tell 2end it just doesn't work as it should with manual H so your proof doesn't help the matter when your feeling with the car is just out of place.

boabmatic
29-09-2017, 10:28
I'm getting the same issue , I'd expect it to stay in N if you didnt use the clutch or at least have a grinding noise/delay before going into gear otherwise there is no point using the clutch.

Tepp
29-09-2017, 10:32
faisalero, yes, this addresses only the "up-shift delay" issue discussed here. I stated this in the first sentence. These threads are messed up with different issues related to manual shifting, so sorry for that.

MaximusN
29-09-2017, 10:32
Hi,

Auto clutch on or off is no difference. You can easily switch gears without the clutch. (e-type Group 44, Ferrari 330 p4, BMW 2002, etc.)

In PC1 you ended up in neutral without the clutch.

regards

Try the Ford Capri. It won't let you shift without the clutch.

stephane4985
29-09-2017, 10:58
So basically, manual clutch is only working on 2 or 3 cars in the game... For a racing simulator, that's really... not good....

SIR_Driftalot
29-09-2017, 11:16
Manual clutch is definitely not working as intended in game.

I've also found on some cars you can upshoft without using the clutch until you get to 5th, which seems to stick into neutral as most other gears would do using manual clutch in Pcars1.

koly
29-09-2017, 11:26
yes it doesn't work at all.

snakehands
29-09-2017, 11:39
Yup! But they ruined the FFB. No kerbs sensation at all? And apparently it's exactly as AJ intended! So now driving over sausages at SUGO emulates real life even more, by giving you absolutely NO indication that you in fact on a kerb?

Hopefully Jack Spade a member if the community, not an employee, can fix that as well while we try and fix this lol :D

There's a setting that turns up the curb etc. it's a good idea to be able to dial stuff like that out because with shakers you don't need the wheel to respond. You should think about getting at least a jetseat to move to a higher level of fidelity.

Purg
29-09-2017, 12:29
Most modern boxes should allow you to shift without a clutch. Try some of the older Porches, they won't engage until you rev match on downshift. Was just racing one of the early Lotus Vintage F1 cars, can won't go into gear unless you engage the clutch. Missed quite a few upshifts over 20 laps of historic Monza with the loop. Bags of fun, though.

stephane4985
29-09-2017, 13:22
Hmm, I can guarantee you that in RL, if you don't use the clutch on a Ford Mustang GT 2015, you are in for some troubles.

3800racingfool
29-09-2017, 13:45
Hmm, I can guarantee you that in RL, if you don't use the clutch on a Ford Mustang GT 2015, you are in for some troubles.

If you try forcing it into gear yes. However you'd be amazed at how readily modern cars will allow you to shift without the clutch. Modern syncros have come a long ways.


But to answer the over-arching question: It has to deal with the new simulated shift times. In PC1, you could shift without the clutch as well (and it wasn't that hard). However, in PC2, it doesn't matter how quickly you shift, the shift times are pre-calculated and you literally have to wait for the computer to do the shifting for you. If you drive some of the older cars and miss a shift it will display the gear you want to be in but the engine will just redline without actually sending you anywhere until you lift off the throttle and let the revs fall to the appropriate level. So, if you shift without the clutch, since the shift times are already calculated to be 'perfect' at all times, it makes it tons easier to clutchlessly shift as long as you don't mash the throttle before the computer's shift timer is up.

To be honest, I really prefer the way it was in PC1 but I understand why it was done this way to prevent abuses and unrealistic shift times in a non-FFB device. If modern shifters could actually provide resistance like a real transmission when shifting there'd be no need for this as the FFB in your shifter would control how quickly you could shift.

hkraft300
29-09-2017, 13:50
Hmm, I can guarantee you that in RL, if you don't use the clutch on a Ford Mustang GT 2015, you are in for some troubles.

I can guarantee you the gears can be changed without a clutch once you're rolling, without any trouble.
Might actually be better for the syncros...

stephane4985
29-09-2017, 13:54
Yes they can, but not seamlessly like in this game. In this game, having a wheel with a clutch is useless as there is no drawback to not use the clutch. This is a real drawback as it touch the basic of having fun driving a manual car.

So I guess I will have to stop playing and return to PC1 or wait for GT sport. I don't care for campaign mode, I just like to drive cars on track and be as realistic as it can be. And this is not.

MaximusN
29-09-2017, 17:09
Okay, so I think I found the 'problem' with h-shifts. It's not the clutch it's the accelerator, and there is no delay. You can actually quick shift the Capri without any clutch at all, as long as you lift off the gas(by a good margin) and throw it into gear.

The way I started testing was use my Steam controller. I put my clutch(home made special Pcars2 profile) on the analog left trigger and configured the half pull as 2(for second gear), set up as toggle to be sure 2 was being pressed constantly. In Pcars2. I set the 2 up for second gear and the clutch to the left trigger. That way I was sure my clutch was engaged before the gear selection and released after. I could shift as quickly as I could press the trigger, so that proved there was no spoon.. I meant delay. I then put everything back and still missed shifts sometimes, but also noticed I could put it in gears when coasting without clutch. And low and behold if you accelerate and lift of the throttle(well!), shift gear and floor it again I could shift very fast. So if you do things right there is no delay.

So I think it's not an actual misshift that's happening, but the clutch slipping. Now I do feel the clutch is a bit weak on slippage because IMHO it should bite more(but damage the clutch), but in a sense it is realistic. But it also leads to you feeling having done everything right in shifting(clutch pressed, select gear, release clutch), but there's one more factor, your accelerator being too far down when you release the clutch.

On the other hand I'm not sure the patch changed anything, but at this time I can only agree that Tepp's analysis is right. There is no delay in that sense of the word.

snakehands
29-09-2017, 19:34
Okay, so I think I found the 'problem' with h-shifts. It's not the clutch it's the accelerator, and there is no delay. You can actually quick shift the Capri without any clutch at all, as long as you lift off the gas(by a good margin) and throw it into gear.

The way I started testing was use my Steam controller. I put my clutch(home made special Pcars2 profile) on the analog left trigger and configured the half pull as 2(for second gear), set up as toggle to be sure 2 was being pressed constantly. In Pcars2. I set the 2 up for second gear and the clutch to the left trigger. That way I was sure my clutch was engaged before the gear selection and released after. I could shift as quickly as I could press the trigger, so that proved there was no spoon.. I meant delay. I then put everything back and still missed shifts sometimes, but also noticed I could put it in gears when coasting without clutch. And low and behold if you accelerate and lift of the throttle(well!), shift gear and floor it again I could shift very fast. So if you do things right there is no delay.

So I think it's not an actual misshift that's happening, but the clutch slipping. Now I do feel the clutch is a bit weak on slippage because IMHO it should bite more(but damage the clutch), but in a sense it is realistic. But it also leads to you feeling having done everything right in shifting(clutch pressed, select gear, release clutch), but there's one more factor, your accelerator being too far down when you release the clutch.

On the other hand I'm not sure the patch changed anything, but at this time I can only agree that Tepp's analysis is right. There is no delay in that sense of the word.

I'd be amazed if the people complaining about this weren't already lifting the throttle while shifting. Also, in reality you need to match the engine and gearbox speed or you will have problems.

FASJ6418
29-09-2017, 21:00
Agreed on all points. Using a physical H-shifter/clutch arrangement is actually a detriment at the moment unless autoclutch is ON. And good point about engine braking; the delay makes the clutch bite point currently impossible to correctly judge.

Yes, itīs almost impossible to guess if itīs engaged or not because weīre all using linear pedals, different than the feel of a real clutch.


There is no realistic delay, because there is no realistic feedback(at least until we get FFB-shifters). So trying to take into account bad synchros in a real box will only mess with your muscle instincts. The stick won't refuse to get in gear, so you have to listen if it has taken gear and if not you lose a lot of time. And IRL you can use extra armforce to force it into gear anyway(it'll hurt your gears, but you can).

And IMHO (but that's me) any H-box in a sim should be able to shift as fast as the fastest non-macro shifter can shift. Or at least don't make it miss the shift but just engage the gear later you shouldn't be punished for executing a perfect shift(at least not with a missed shift as punishment). It's the gear missing that infuriates me most, not the delay. After a few times I just switch to auto-clutch(but still use the clutch as if it were needed).

Unfortunately iīm doing this until thereīs a patch because downshifts are almost impossible right now due to how deep the clutch has to be to register and engaged.


i have no issues doing up shifting its downshifting that's messing up my tempo especially when im going fast and want to brake hard and late you down shift with H shifter from 4th gear to 3ed tell 2end it just doesn't work as it should with manual H so your proof doesn't help the matter when your feeling with the car is just out of place.

Yes!

After i few mistakes i had no problem at all upshifting because i knew they were simulating the delay so it was just a matter of lifting of and everything is fine.

However

Downshifting quickly in these cars is almost impossible.

Hereīs my two cents i posted on GTP:

I did some tests in the game, and iīm 99% sure the problem with H pattern downshifting has to do with how much you have to travel the clutch before itīs actually engaged. This is an issue with linear pedals like in the G25, the clutch is only engaged in the final 10% of the travel, which means you have to go there, stay there, shift, release, and then start the process again for the next downshift.

But if you do this itīs almost impossible to shift while the clutch is registered by the game as engaged, thatīs why we get that feeling like the car is stuck on neutral and the engine is dead.

Itīs a shame because almost nobody plays the H pattern cars with manual clutch, so nobody cares to fix this, because itīs only affecting half a dozen people.

You can test for yourself in the game by starting up the car and testing just how early the clutch releases and letīs the car move. It only uses the 10% deeper end of the pedal. This makes some sense in real life, where you can feel the biting point better to know if itīs engaged or not. With a linear pedal this becomes almost impossible to know if the clutch is engaged, because itīs only actually "on" at the very deep end of the pedal travel.

Games like AC also have these different types of features to prevent crazy downshift, but since the biting point of the clutch is way earlier you can downshift properly and the game reads the input and proceeds to give the regular engine brake effect of the downshifted gear.

Clutch sensitivity does not solve this, so itīs something they would need to change it in a patch, just by reading the clutch input as soon as you press the clutch pedal - and not on the very bottom of the pedal as it stands right now.

After being dumbfounded by this since the first time iīve played, i think i finally figured out whatīs causing this, hopefully you guys can test and see if the results are the same.

--

Right now the only way to downshift in these cars is with heel and toe, which kind of sucks.

AitchPattern
29-09-2017, 21:11
I did some tests to check what's happening with so called "delay" on up-shifts. This is to proof that there is NO extra delay for H-shifter!!! We (you) should stop speculating on that.

I used Porsche 935/77 Group 5 car at Monza Classic GP and collected some telemetry using pCARS Profiler.

1. Auto-clutch scenario (Capture_01.jpg)

241248

First of all I wanted to see how the Auto-clutch shifting looks like, how fast it will change the gears, and use it as a reference. To check that I enabled the feature in the settings and while driving I was just standing on the gas pedal, and pressed the up-shift paddle shortly before revs hit the red zone, that's all.

As you can see on the telemetry screenshot the timing is perfect: it simultaneously presses the clutch, releases the gas and puts the gear lever to neutral. Than waits 0.350s and again, simultaneously releases the clutch, puts the gear lever in the next gear position and presses the gas pedal. Perfect!

With all the respect you will not be able to replicate that manually on H-shifter, at least not every time.

2. "As-fast-as-possible" H-shifter scenario (Capture_02.jpg)

241249

In this scenario I tried to use full shifting procedure on H-shifter as fast as I can. Just to see what happens at mis-shifts, because I know that (in this game) this will lead to a mis-shift.

If you look at the telemetry, you can see that the two sub-sequential shift procedures failed. And the reason is obvious - wrong timing! My pedal work is faster than the H-pattern work. I released the clutch too early, before the shifter lever gets in position. This causes the mis-shift. As you can see the revs gets to the max, so the gear was not engaged, until I release the gas pedal, which allows to engage the gear. With "engaged" I mean when the motor is connected to the drive train.

For reference, the time between the shift lever gets from one position through the neutral to a new position (between vertical lines on the gear graph, "time in neutral") is 0.233s.

Have you checked your timing before complaining? OK, I'm not very good at that, just try yourself.

3. "Normal" shifting scenario (Capture_03.jpg)

241250

Here I wanted to show the "normal", reliable switching procedure which does not causes mis-shifts. At the same time I tried to be fast.

When we look at the screenshot, I started with both clutch and gas pedals simultaneously, then after about 0.250s, I started to move the gear lever to a next gear position, it took me 0.300s. And immediately at the same moment when this move is finished I released the clutch pedal. So as you can see:

1) the gear is engaged successfully (see the revs graph)
2) THERE IS NO ARTIFICIAL DELAY AFTER I PUT THE GEAR LEVER TO A NEW POSITION !!! I was able to release the clutch immediately and the gear was engaged without the mis-shitf.

AitchPattern, are you still here? I'm doing your homework!

4. "Waiting in neutral" scenario (Capture_04.jpg)

241251

Here I wanted to show the perfect timing when releasing the clutch, putting the lever to a gear and releasing the gas pedal at the same moment. To perform that I had to stay for a second longer in the neutral before doing that. Just to confirm that there is no extra delay here.

5. Conclusion

1) This is authentic!
2) If you are shifting manually, you have to be sure that the timing is correct.
3) Yes, the Auto-clutch is faster, because human cannot perform perfect timing every time until he/she is a robot. But if you are :), you can be as fast as the Auto-clutch!
4) Yes, this is unfair in face-to-face competition, but you can count the Auto-clutch as an assist with all the consequences. And it really is.

Best Regards
Tepp

I dont disagree with your findings?
Becuase you missed the actual point, AGAIN!

How can you be this blind to the point?
Its like you are so focused on trying to prove me wrong, you miss the actual point at hand.

You have completly misunderstood the point and your entiure post verifiys that!
This artifical dealy YOU keep bnanging on about is NOT what is being discussed here? Why wont you move off this artifical dealy nonsense?

If you want to very THIS issue, you MUST follow the instructions provided that allow you to replicate it, not make up your own instructions that verify NOTHING!

Easiest way for you to finally get this into your head!
Take a video camera
Point it at your shifter AND the screen
Leave shifter in 3rd
Engage 4th Gear

You will see FOR A FACT that it takes around 250ms AFTER your shifter presses the button BEFORE the game COMPLETES the change!

Next!
Clear your head and calm down and THINK for a moment about that...
Just let that sink in and have your Joey moment!

YOUR ENTIRE POST HAS ADDRESSED AN ISSUE THAT NO ONE DISCISSED OR DISAGRESS WITH?
WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT?

Using PCars Dash there is a SET time that the vehicle is in Neutral (a minimum time) and that time SHOULD BE REMOVED BECUASE MY SHIFTER PASSED THROUGH NEUTRAL MANULLY AND THE GAME DID NOT ACCOUNT FOR IT!

EVERY OTHER SINGLE DELEVOPER ON EARTH INCLUDING SMS DO THIS CURRENTLY AND PREVIOUSLY.
FIND A VEHICLE IN REAL LIFE, THAT AFTER YOU SELECT THE GEAR MANUALLY AND ENGAGE IT PHSICALLY SITS FOR SET PERIOD IN NEUTRAL BEFORE MAKING THE CHANGE?

I am about done dealing with level of ineptitude, i honestly dont beleive for a moment you are a real person, i think you are just trolling for fun becuase you a million miles away for the point at hand!

AitchPattern
29-09-2017, 21:46
Let me just leave this here for you to digest!
If you could forget about your passionate hatred toward me, just for a moment and actually focus that onto the actual probelm at hand, you might be able to move forward.

241337

Let me just level these here and see if you can figure it out yet!
"Can you guess what it is yet"

241338

Let me just clarify something for you!
Its got nothing to do with whatever you have been rambeling on about!
Once YOU figure it out, get back to me and ill accept your apology, as unlike you, this isnt about trying to make someone look bad...
You dont like me i get that, but you have a seriously worring facincation with my posts.

ITS RIGHT THERE!!!
YOU DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!

I am about done with your posts that are muddying the water and detracting form the point at hand, stop posting pointless nonsesne that has nothing to do with the issue being discussed.
Honestly!

Bealdor
29-09-2017, 22:01
Please calm down again Aitch.
There's no reason to shout and accuse other members of trolling or being dumb.

Morgan Henstridge
29-09-2017, 22:07
I dont disagree with your findings?

Easiest way for you to finally get this into your head!
Take a video camera
Point it at your shifter AND the screen
Leave shifter in 3rd
Engage 4th Gear

You will see FOR A FACT that it takes around 250ms AFTER your shifter presses the button BEFORE the game COMPLETES the change!


When you say to look at the screen, are you talking about the shift animation, yes or no.

Fanapryde
29-09-2017, 22:22
My Heusinkveld Pro clutch pedal is built specially to mimic a RL clutch. The feeling and force needed are set the same as my own car.
(Fast) upshifting works flawless in R3E, RF2, AMS and AC. The biting point is the same in all, including pCars 2.
However, using the H-shifter in pCars2 keeps giving me trouble with fast upshifting.
I watched the gear indicator (on screen and on my Fanatec wheel). Though these clearly indicate that the next gear is active, it does not engage and I have to press the clutch a second time before it will.
Now if I clutch and shift very slow (to my standards) all works fine. But that is a lot slower than in my actual car (and all of my previous ones).
I'm not talking milliseconds or button activating, but there is clearly a delay that should not be there, compared to RL shifting. Either that or I'm a shifting god in my cars... :p

And no, I'm not looking at any shifting animation on screen.

faisalero
29-09-2017, 22:34
i believe if some one has a webcam and can record what happens if you upshift or down shift fast with an H shifter and manual clutch it would show how its messing up the driving experience.

stephane4985
29-09-2017, 22:38
So huh, any chance this is looked at or it is accepted as "working as intended" ?

koly
30-09-2017, 00:03
Most modern boxes should allow you to shift without a clutch. Try some of the older Porches, they won't engage until you rev match on downshift. Was just racing one of the early Lotus Vintage F1 cars, can won't go into gear unless you engage the clutch. Missed quite a few upshifts over 20 laps of historic Monza with the loop. Bags of fun, though.

they tried to justify this major issue like a real life things, i laugh about this ! it's more simple to say, ok we rushed the game, we have to work more.

AitchPattern
30-09-2017, 00:50
Please calm down again Aitch.
There's no reason to shout and accuse other members of trolling or being dumb.

Have you even seen his posts toward me?
His ports are full of nonsense that has literally NOTHING to do with this issue.

YET your mods are actually LIKING his posts? Liking posts that are nothing to do with the topic, not related to the issue reported, detracting from the topic???

What on earth is going on here?
The mods are enabeling him by, liking posts that literally have NOTHING to do with an issue reported?
I give up!

There are about 4 people who actually understand this issue and the math behind it.
Ask them to explain it from now on, as i genuinly can't simplifiy any more than i have already done, it;s basically primarly level mathmatics, with an analogy of a hamburger to make even the youngest of children understand the issue!

there is your screen shots you wanted, i have posted the data in the previous 10 pages, the methodology to reproduce.
I am a man of science! we are taught not to take sides, its never about whos science you blelive or which side you are on! its about being able to produce an open array of testable, reporducable repeatable facts. That is whats in the last 13 pages.

I even gave those who were REALLY struggeling a hamburger analogy for crying out loud...
and they still dont get it :(

Im done i have much better things to do with my time, it will get sorted eventually, im sure!

Until then, you might want to actually learn about taking data regarding issues rather than taking sides and liking posts that do nothing but detract from the situation.
Its been an absolute joke, because all you have now, is a guy writing nonsense about nothing to do with this issue (that you guys apparently like) and the actual issue being left incpmplete.

What a farce!

Mahjik
30-09-2017, 01:03
Aitch,

You were asked to take it down a notch. Please do so. This is the last warning.

AitchPattern
30-09-2017, 01:17
Aitch,

You were asked to take it down a notch. Please do so. This is the last warning.

Noted,

May i ask why some of my posts have been deleted, without notification?
Are mods not supposed to advise the user when their posts are edited or deleted or does that just happen silently without informing the user or providing a reason?

I thought mods editing and removing posts without informing the user was more a /u/spez thing?

Aldo Zampatti
30-09-2017, 01:21
Noted,

May i ask why some of my posts have been deleted, without notification?
Are mods not supposed to advise the user when their posts are edited or deleted or does that just happen silently without informing the user or providing a reason?

I thought mods editing and removing posts without informing the user was more a /u/spez thing?

Not sure which posts are you talking about but if any of us sees a compelling reason to delete a post, we'll just do it. Reasons might be because of a disrespectful post, complaining without reason, whining, CAPS ABUSE, etc,etc.

Mahjik
30-09-2017, 01:23
I just looked at the history of this thread, there are no deleted posts. I took a look at your post history and see no deleted posts.

AitchPattern
30-09-2017, 01:26
Not sure which posts are you talking about but if any of us sees a compelling reason to delete a post, we'll just do it. Reasons might be because of a disrespectful post, complaining without reason, whining, CAPS ABUSE, etc,etc.

It had none of the above, but i love the passive aggressive undertone ;) (/jk thats a winky face)
Would a reason be pertaining to an issue mods dont want to aknowledge?

So basically, posts can be edited and/or deleted by a mod at ANY time without notice to (and/or) the user/forum members?
Ok, im glad you clarified that, as its rather concering?

Thank you for clarifying.

AitchPattern
30-09-2017, 01:28
I just looked at the history of this thread, there are no deleted posts. I took a look at your post history and see no deleted posts.

Ok?

I find this very interesting and your accusation is not only false, but easily provable that you are in fact lying, and trying to hide the fact you are indeed removing and editing (spez) user posts!

It's very easy to confirm.

Let me demonstrate using your own forum software:
Look at the number BELOW my Join Date!
It says "Posts 76"

Now, click my username and check/count my post history!

You will notice that my post history DOES NOT MATCH my post count.
There are 3 missing from actual history, that you deleted and tried to hide!

Any user can confirm this easily by counting physical posts in the post history, and matching it to the post count.

If it matches, you are truthful, if it doesn't match, you have been caught in a lie, and tried to call a innocent user a liar in the process.

You can clearly see that my post history DOES NOT MATCH my actual post count!

I have around 3 missing,
1 of which was quoting a mod who let a guy off for posting 8 F boms in his post, when I received an infraction for saying "this is mental" and I asked for clarity on the rules.

Can i prove this?

Yes!

Swearing example I quoted!
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?53406-Patch-PC-out-1-1-3&p=1373332&viewfull=1#post1373332

He said a lot of Fs and he received no infraction, I said "this is mental" and received an infraction"

But that post has mysteriously disappeared from my history (any user can verify this)


I also PMd Ian Bell directly as he contacted me after my infraction, an apologised for any overreaction.

Would you like a screen shot! (Screen shot added, more facts/evidence from me) but still nothing from you?

It's very clear to see who is lying, and it's not me!

I said to Ian, why give me an infraction for saying "this is mental" when this guy (above) was dropping FBombs etc.. why would I say and link to that in a conversation with Ian, and provide you with a link to the post, yet not my own post? Hmmmm?

Ian said sorry you are all on edge as its release week, I said fair enough, accepted it and moved on.

Another was a video I posted... etc.
So for sure my posts are missing as they are not in my history, And your software verify this as my post count does not match my posts below my name, or the details had with a private conversation with your CEO!

You see, unlike You and your baseless accusations, I can categorical PROVE you have been removing my posts and hiding the fact you did it.

Then there are 3 missing!
So where are they?

Aldo Zampatti
30-09-2017, 01:33
So basically, posts can be edited and/or deleted by a mod at ANY time without notice to (and/or) the user/forum members?
Ok, im glad you clarified that, as its rather concering?

Thank you for clarifying.

We normally either clarify between us internally or give a reason in the thread itself sometimes. But in the end, Any SMS employee can review our behavior too. We don't "hide" things just because

AitchPattern
30-09-2017, 01:36
We normally either clarify between us internally or give a reason in the thread itself sometimes. But in the end, Any SMS employee can review our behavior too. We don't "hide" things just because

But you do say "we havn't deleted your posts"
when in fact someone will post back here in a minute saying ...

Ahh yes we did delete them, even though at first we swore that we didnt.


Funny that eh :)

Aldo Zampatti
30-09-2017, 01:38
But you do say "we havn't deleted your posts"
when in fact someone will post back here in a minute saying ...

Ahh yes we did delete them, even though at first we swore that we didnt.


Funny that eh :)
I haven't said that :) But It's hard from our tool to find deleted posts. Mahjik tried to do so, and he might have missed it.

Mahjik
30-09-2017, 01:41
PM me the screenshot and keep things which are not part of this thread, into PM's.

However, you are diverting the conversation. Stop with the passive aggressive attacks. If someone doesn't agree with your opinion, move on. At the end of the day, it's your opinion no matter how strongly you believe in it. Everyone has their own opinions and yours is no more or less correct than theirs. Heck, SMS may never agree with your opinion.

AitchPattern
30-09-2017, 01:43
PM me the screenshot and keep things which are not part of this thread, into PM's.

However, you are diverting the conversation. Stop with the passive aggressive attacks. If someone doesn't agree with your opinion, move on. At the end of the day, it's your opinion no matter how strongly you believe in it. Everyone has their own opinions and yours is no more or less correct than theirs. Heck, SMS may never agree with your opinion.

Screen shot was uploaded already!
I discussed with Ian the misundertand that i was given an infraction for saying This is mental whilke others swear!

He said sorry, everyone is on edge first week, keep at it!

Its right above you!

ALDO SAID:
You used the word "Mental" implying that SMS is crazy of implementing something like this.

Yes i have seen loads of swearing and othher referenfe on here worse that that!

Anyway, this has gone off topic please PM me if you wish to discuss this further!

But for sure my posts are missing!

Ian Bell
30-09-2017, 01:48
Aitch please let it go and we'll remove your infraction. (mods).

Aldo Zampatti
30-09-2017, 01:49
Aitch please let it go and we'll remove your infraction. (mods).

On it.

AitchPattern
30-09-2017, 01:52
Aitch please let it go and we'll remove your infraction. (mods).

Happy to Ian,
Its just been threat after threat (to me) for far less than everyone else has been doing, hence my questioning of it.

Happy to move on,
with no further issue and no further mention of it.

Back on Topic,
My telemetry images (and findings) do indeed verify the issue previosuly stated, that H pattern shifters are not working as intended :)

Morgan Henstridge
30-09-2017, 02:07
@ Mods - I believe that may have been from the other thread on this entitled "H-Pattern" as this discussion started over there but then it started up in this thread as well.

@Aitch - When you say to "look at the screen" while shifting, are you talking about the shift animation, yes or no.

AitchPattern
30-09-2017, 02:13
@ Mods - I believe that may have been from the other thread on this entitled "H-Pattern" as this discussion started over there but then it started up in this thread as well.

@Aitch - When you say to "look at the screen" while shifting, are you talking about the shift animation, yes or no.

No.
Look at the OSD / telemetry / Telemetry App etc...

Morgan Henstridge
30-09-2017, 02:31
OK, cool.

BUT.....

If i do a shift from 2nd to 3rd, so im going across the gate for a slower shift, if I go as quick as i can, this will miss shift. Everyone agrees on that.

However, If i do the same shift, but i wait a second in the middle with the clutch in and the shifter in neutral, I can then throw it straight up to 3rd, dump the clutch and drive off with no delay.

You are saying, and I quote, "You will see FOR A FACT that it takes around 250ms AFTER your shifter presses the button BEFORE the game COMPLETES the change!"

In the 2 scenarios above, then why does the first one miss, but the second one engages the gear and drives away without issue every time. There is no difference in these 2 situations "After the shifter presses the button".

That is the point I have been trying to make. I'm not trying to deliberately ignore what you are saying, or post stuff that is deliberately missing your point. I'm trying to explain what i have seen in relation to what you have said.

As I said earlier, if there is an issue, then I believe everyone here would want to see it addressed. But getting everyone on the same page so we can understand exactly what you believe the issue is, specially with these complex systems in play, is not as easy as we both had no doubt hoped :)

finagle69
30-09-2017, 02:57
OK, cool.

BUT.....

If i do a shift from 2nd to 3rd, so im going across the gate for a slower shift, if I go as quick as i can, this will miss shift. Everyone agrees on that.

However, If i do the same shift, but i wait a second in the middle with the clutch in and the shifter in neutral, I can then throw it straight up to 3rd, dump the clutch and drive off with no delay.

You are saying, and I quote, "You will see FOR A FACT that it takes around 250ms AFTER your shifter presses the button BEFORE the game COMPLETES the change!"

In the 2 scenarios above, then why does the first one miss, but the second one engages the gear and drives away without issue every time. There is no difference in these 2 situations "After the shifter presses the button".

That is the point I have been trying to make. I'm not trying to deliberately ignore what you are saying, or post stuff that is deliberately missing your point. I'm trying to explain what i have seen in relation to what you have said.

As I said earlier, if there is an issue, then I believe everyone here would want to see it addressed. But getting everyone on the same page so we can understand exactly what you believe the issue is, specially with these complex systems in play, is not as easy as we both had no doubt hoped :)
I believe you're right, based on previous data. It boils down to, per car, there is an upshift delay, full stop.

The fact that this shift delay is identical for H and paddle (AC) users is an unfair advantage to the paddle user. The flip of a paddle gets it done, perfectly, every time. H pattern users have more "stuff" to go through, and get correct, every time we shift. The fact that additional time is needed to shift is the disadvantage.

Let's use pretend math just for an example.

Assumptions:
Car upshifts in 300ms per the game.
User can start an H shift (depress clutch and roll off throttle) in 100ms

Scenario:
Paddle user wants to shift, clicks paddle. 300ms later, he's up to the next gear.

H user wants to shift
100ms for initial movement
300ms for gear change
100ms for rolling back on throttle

This is an exaggerated example, but meant to show how an H user is effectively punished just on time alone. Apart from that, he STILL has to accurately get the shift right.

Using Auto Clutch with H allows a manual user to get the 300ms shift every time, but it's completely unrealistic for a sim..

AitchPattern
30-09-2017, 03:41
OK, cool.

BUT.....

If i do a shift from 2nd to 3rd, so im going across the gate for a slower shift, if I go as quick as i can, this will miss shift. Everyone agrees on that.

However, If i do the same shift, but i wait a second in the middle with the clutch in and the shifter in neutral, I can then throw it straight up to 3rd, dump the clutch and drive off with no delay.

You are saying, and I quote, "You will see FOR A FACT that it takes around 250ms AFTER your shifter presses the button BEFORE the game COMPLETES the change!"

In the 2 scenarios above, then why does the first one miss, but the second one engages the gear and drives away without issue every time. There is no difference in these 2 situations "After the shifter presses the button".

That is the point I have been trying to make. I'm not trying to deliberately ignore what you are saying, or post stuff that is deliberately missing your point. I'm trying to explain what i have seen in relation to what you have said.

As I said earlier, if there is an issue, then I believe everyone here would want to see it addressed. But getting everyone on the same page so we can understand exactly what you believe the issue is, specially with these complex systems in play, is not as easy as we both had no doubt hoped :)

Not easy at all :)

I'm not at the PC so I don't want to make assumptions, by my statement (that you quoted) is based on a full YnY gear change, and the telemetry image I posted demonstrates that (image 2 is my shifter moving from 1st to 2nd as fast as possible)

It's erratic and horrific to look at in comparison to image 1, which is how it should look.

Only the devs can truly explain why this is happening, because its completely different to pcars 1 and every other in sim in existence.

It could be something very simple.
For example, is it possible that they program the manual selected gear changes to work in the following way...

Y>N
N>Y

So when we go through slowly we don't notice any lag/delay etc as we only get neutral to gear.
But if we go through quickly, is it possible the time spend in N is duplicated, so we get.

Y>N>N>Y

This way the time spent in neutral is far too long, it's effectively doubled.
Which would account for the telemetry posted earlier and the "delay" I mention when looking at the OSD telemetry when doing a quick shift.

I don't actually know why it's happening, just that it is?
The devs can test it themselves in a few seconds, check the telemetry etc. I have no idea why it does what it does, just that it does.

My example of tine spend in neutral being too long could be completely incorrect, it could be anything, all I know for sure, is that it just is :)

Morgan Henstridge
30-09-2017, 03:49
Would be handy if one of the developers could break it down when they have some time.

Then we would know exactly what it is intending to do, and would make it easier to identify if there is a potential issue with Vehicle X or Y, or if it is in fact all working as intended.

Without knowing exactly what these complex systems are doing behind the scenes, there is an amount of speculation from both sides of the argument, based on what we "believe" it is doing.

Ian Bell
30-09-2017, 04:00
Yes, Casey is overdue in here.

Aldo Zampatti
30-09-2017, 04:22
Yes, Casey is overdue in here.

PM'ed so his aware.

woofi
30-09-2017, 08:38
Try the Ford Capri. It won't let you shift without the clutch.

not here - is the same as the other cars i mentioned. I guess itīs a bug.

regards