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Bavarian Turbo
24-09-2017, 14:50
on Nordschleife the pit lane is closed every time.
so there is no practice or quali available and if you go there a race you should disable damage

please SMS open the pit lane on the Nordschleife:eagerness:

Ramjet
24-09-2017, 16:21
Yeah gotta admit I am totally confused by this ? Is it meant to be like that or a bug ? :confused:
I was sure I raced and pitted there during the beta or perhaps I am crazy, the latter is better odds !

Bavarian Turbo
27-09-2017, 04:10
no answer SMS?

Mahjik
27-09-2017, 04:14
What are you looking for specifically? The pit lane is not there.

Kaerar
27-09-2017, 04:21
I guess they are looking for a working pits for the Nordschleife...

Easty410
27-09-2017, 04:23
It says it at the top of the post mate....

*****please SMS open the pit lane on the Nordschleife******

Mahjik
27-09-2017, 04:26
Yes, SMS is aware of the thread. However, that doesn't mean they owe anyone a comment.

Easty410
27-09-2017, 04:30
No one is saying they owe anyone a comment champ, they are pointing out an issue.

Mahjik
27-09-2017, 04:31
No one is saying they owe anyone a comment champ, they are pointing out an issue.

You need to read post #3.

Easty410
27-09-2017, 04:32
ahh yes my bad, missed that one completely

riverreveal
27-09-2017, 06:53
SMS obviously don't owe anyone anything.

But as developers they are amazing at community interaction, so people will probably be a lot more 'SMS what's going on' than a lot of other forums. Personally going down the route of what devs are owed when people have paid money for a product and feel something is missing is going to end up inflaming situations rather than easing them.

As a general note though, what a fantastic job the devs and mods have been doing in these forums post release.

Shepard2603
27-09-2017, 07:21
on Nordschleife the pit lane is closed every time.
so there is no practice or quali available and if you go there a race you should disable damage

please SMS open the pit lane on the Nordschleife:eagerness:

Go with the combined track (as in the 24h race) and you are good.

Zenzic
27-09-2017, 08:04
^ That's not a solution. I like Nordschleife and the combined version for different reasons. One does not simply replace the other.

Leper Messiah
27-09-2017, 08:19
weird, weren't the smaller pits open in the PCars version?

Zenzic
27-09-2017, 08:22
If with "smaller pits" you mean the pits on the Nordschleife itself: yes, they were usable in PCars 1. Cars did tend to hit the tire wall on the outside of the bend at the pit entrance while controlled by AI, but that's a different issue. :D

D3vilDriver
27-09-2017, 10:03
You do get the Pit when you include the GP course for now.
But for me as an obsessive Nordschleife Driver I really would like to see open pits on the Nordschleife. I don't like to restart or quit and open again.

Ex01
27-09-2017, 10:11
Yes, SMS is aware of the thread. However, that doesn't mean they owe anyone a comment.

Toxic comments like this really dont help the community, that is your opinion as a paying customer mine is that he is well within his rights to ask for a response as another paying customer. I love this game to bit's but it is FAR from ready.

Roger Prynne
27-09-2017, 10:40
Toxic comments like this really dont help the community, that is your opinion as a paying customer mine is that he is well within his rights to ask for a response as another paying customer. I love this game to bit's but it is FAR from ready.

Toxic comments?, come on now that's a bit strong don't you think.

PeteUplink
27-09-2017, 11:47
SMS obviously don't owe anyone a comment, but it would be courteous for one of the developers to pop in and give people a little note that it's being looked into. It seems a pretty big ommission to miss out the pits on one of the most popular tracks in the world that many people would want to drive their virtual cars around.

I've been a developer for many years, starting out as a "bedroom coder" on the ZX81 when I was a kid, and I hear a lot from fellow games developers about how gamers these days tend to be pushy, entitled and are always demanding that their complaints be listened to. Because their problems are more important than anything else and they want stuff done now! But the developers (and this isn't aimed at SMS it's an observation of developers from a wide number of studios) often don't really help themselves, either.

I know from experience that devs tend to be busy working on one thing or another, bug fixing, adding new content, optimising existing content, etc. I also know that they may not have the time to engage right away with people who complain (or even want to if the complaint is venomous), but a simple "We've heard your complaint and we're looking into it" would be great in many cases. It wouldn't suit everyone, and some will still complain further, but the majority of visitors will be satisfied with at least getting a response.

It also doesn't help that on many games studio forums the moderators are often quite frosty with people who raise a legitimate complaint. Again, this is not to have a go at the moderators here. It happens everywhere on the net these days and I understand that having to put up with certain gamers can be a core, but comments like "Yes we know, but what do you expect us to do!?" aren't productive and just add more fuel to the fire. A much better response would be "Yes, we're aware of the issue. it's been passed on to the dev team. But we cannot give you any further information at the moment. It is being looked into." It would work a lot better.

As I said, I know some gamers are self centered, entitled (insert expletive here), but so are some devs and moderators, unfortunately... Again, this isn't aimed at SMS or anyone specific. It's just what I've noticed from over 30 years making and playing games. People on the internet tend to act like *bleep* to one another, because it's all so anonymous. We tend to forget that we're interacting with a real person and not just a wall of text on a screen.

GAT_Montana
27-09-2017, 12:05
Just a small add from myself, for sure the devs are aware about this issue, because we have discussed during the development phase as well for several times. Finaly it was a strategic desission to keep the more relaistic approach with the combined tracks. It doesnt mean that they could not change their opinion. But its absolutley not on top of the priority list and it is quite complicated to change now, from a pure technical perspective.

Ramjet
27-09-2017, 12:06
I would like to know was it deliberately made this way (closed pit) and if so, just a short explanation why ... or rather, is there some bug at play and it is being worked upon so it can be properly raced. The answer to this would only be known fully by someone in the dev team at SMS.

Leper Messiah
27-09-2017, 12:32
If with "smaller pits" you mean the pits on the Nordschleife itself: yes, they were usable in PCars 1. Cars did tend to hit the tire wall on the outside of the bend at the pit entrance while controlled by AI, but that's a different issue. :D

And it's this pit not in PC2? Just to clarify this is not the Tourist bit down the long straight that people want?

Boskapongen
27-09-2017, 12:35
And it's this pit not in PC2? Just to clarify this is not the Tourist bit down the long straight that people want?

Tourist version is not in the game what i can see.

Leper Messiah
27-09-2017, 12:37
Tourist version is not in the game what i can see.

But is that the complaint? It wasn't in PC1 either.....I'd better just fire the game up again and have a look see!

BongoFury23
27-09-2017, 12:39
C'mon guys, it's so easy: Many people want to drive training and races on Nordschleife only. So we need the small, old pits there like it has been on PCars1.

Zenzic
27-09-2017, 12:41
I'm having trouble following you, Leper Messiah.

This (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Circuit_N%C3%BCrburgring-2013-Nordschleife.svg/1200px-Circuit_N%C3%BCrburgring-2013-Nordschleife.svg.png) is the layout of the Nordschleife. This track is available in both PCars 1 and 2. In PCars 1 there were functional pits where the checkered flag is on that image. In PCars 2 the pits seem to have been physically blocked off. To be fair I hadn't considered whether the Nordschleife layout actually has those pits in real life. If it doesn't I can accept them missing from PCars 2.

Cholton82
27-09-2017, 12:44
Tourist route on PCars 2 , Now this is what dreams are made of ! Assetto has it and it would be incredible if PCars 2 had it .

Zenzic
27-09-2017, 12:46
Looks like the old pits we're talking about are still being used: "Several touring car series still compete on the Nordschleife, using either only the simple 20.8 km (12.9 mi) version with its separate small pit lane, or a combined 24.4 km (15.2 mi)-long track that uses a part of the original modern F1 track (without the Mercedes Arena section, which is often used for support pits) plus its huge pit facilities." (Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring))

PeteUplink
27-09-2017, 12:50
yeah, the old pits are still there and are still used in some racing series.

Leper Messiah
27-09-2017, 13:01
I'm having trouble following you, Leper Messiah.

This (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Circuit_N%C3%BCrburgring-2013-Nordschleife.svg/1200px-Circuit_N%C3%BCrburgring-2013-Nordschleife.svg.png) is the layout of the Nordschleife. This track is available in both PCars 1 and 2. In PCars 1 there were functional pits where the checkered flag is on that image. In PCars 2 the pits seem to have been physically blocked off. To be fair I hadn't considered whether the Nordschleife layout actually has those pits in real life. If it doesn't I can accept them missing from PCars 2.

I was just making sure it wasn't the "pits" down the main straight for the touristenfahrten. As I hadn't tested it yet in PC2...I now see it's the pits that were open in the original game. Very strange change this!!

Invincible
27-09-2017, 13:10
I was just making sure it wasn't the "pits" down the main straight for the touristenfahrten. As I hadn't tested it yet in PC2...I now see it's the pits that were open in the original game. Very strange change this!!

I've brought this up in the WMD2 forum - I will report back as soon as I have anything official. At this point I can't say why it is closed and if it will stay closed or not.

Mahjik
27-09-2017, 14:06
I would like to know was it deliberately made this way (closed pit) and if so, just a short explanation why ... or rather, is there some bug at play and it is being worked upon so it can be properly raced. The answer to this would only be known fully by someone in the dev team at SMS.

You, over most here since you were in WMD1, should understand that SMS doesn't owe anyone an explanation. They may or may not provide background to design decisions they have made, but demanding a response is not going to make it happen.

whip
27-09-2017, 14:08
You, over most here since you were in WMD1, should understand that SMS doesn't owe anyone an explanation. They may or may not provide background to design decisions they have made, but demanding a response is not going to make it happen.

no harm in asking

Mahjik
27-09-2017, 14:14
no harm in asking

Not at all. And the asks are fine. It the "demanding" that is not ok.

Roger Prynne
27-09-2017, 15:31
A much better response would be "Yes, we're aware of the issue. it's been passed on to the dev team. But we cannot give you any further information at the moment. It is being looked into." It would work a lot better.

But we have been doing this since release, or haven't you been reading the forums?

czlxst
27-09-2017, 15:46
Which sense have tracks without pits?

It's not possible to do a raceweekend with P + Q.

PeteUplink
27-09-2017, 15:47
But we have been doing this since release, or haven't you been reading the forums?

Well, actually, I've not been on the forums for a while. I used to be heavily involved with the talk about AI in PCars1, but I left the forums after a while. I only came back because PCars2 came out.

But, as I said, there's a problem endemic of all online forums these days, and it's the fact that many of us (and I've been guilty of this in the past) simply talk down to the person on the other side. Because all we can see is a wall of text, not a human being, so we often think it's okay to behave in a way that we wouldn't do in a real face to face conversation.

There's a pattern to all games forums and it goes like this: Gamers raise a point > moderator give a reply > another gamer raises the same point > moderator (annoyed at answering the same point again) gives a curt reply > gamer retaliates by saying something that the moderator takes as an insult > moderator feels offended and bans them because they want to get back at them and show their superiority that's been given to them by their status as a moderator.

Again, this is not aimed at anyone here, it's just a culture that's spread through all games forums. It probably stems from the days when people used to come on a forum and ask a question, but they'd then be met with comments like "There is a search function you know! Why didn't you use it?" Which always struck me as rude, like telling someone who's asking directions to go and buy a map.

At the end of the day, people are horrible to each other on forums. Gamers are rude to mods, mods ban gamers for being rude, and because they can. When, if we'd all just be a bit more courteous to each other, these things wouldn't happen.

Roger Prynne
27-09-2017, 15:57
moderator feels offended and bans them because they want to get back at them and show their superiority that's been given to them by their status as a moderator.
This is absolutely not true on this forum, but we do have to keep them in check, otherwise the forum would be full of abusers.

if we'd all just be a bit more courteous to each other, these things wouldn't happen.

Agreed.

J4M35_R
27-09-2017, 16:14
Very strange decision if this is deliberate. It's like having no pit lane at le mans. Hope it's a bug.

Grijo
27-09-2017, 16:19
I didnīt received my Pcars 2 copy that is pre-ordered since 09/06 and Iīm not entering in this forum too much because the sh** storm began since the release. Iīm a big fan of Pcars since the first one (I even wrote Project Cars: The claimant's manual) but, that news made me sad. Nordschleife is my all time testing track, I love to race, to hotlap and everything else in Nords...Iīm not the guy that fill threads with complains and stuff like that but, for that decision, Iīll not deffend or applaud SMS. Serious, Iīm really, really disappointed with you guys...

Bavarian Turbo
27-09-2017, 17:30
What are you looking for specifically? The pit lane is not there.


Yes, SMS is aware of the thread. However, that doesn't mean they owe anyone a comment.

if I know that the error is known and is worked on then I am already satisfied.
But as long as no one writes something from whence should I know then?

I now assume that the pit lane on the Nordschleife soon open:eagerness:

Edit: "We know" thank you

ImpliedConsent
27-09-2017, 18:18
This is absolutely not true on this forum, but we do have to keep them in check, otherwise the forum would be full of abusers.
What kind of check is that? Deleting posts you don't like? You guys are representing ProjectCars, not your personal attitudes.

Ex01
27-09-2017, 18:25
Toxic comments?, come on now that's a bit strong don't you think.

In your opinion and we all have one :-)

The original post asked for a response, he has been jumped on mostly with people saying Dev's owe no one anything. Well I guess that is one standpoint, but then you wont be making that person want to purchase future products or continue to support this product, and the snow ball starts.

I dont know Ian Bell at all but I would imagine that isn't his end goal, he strikes me as a straight talking honest guy that takes no shit, but his customers seem to be a high priority, and would communicate when and how he can as much as possible and expect the same from his team.

We as customers who support and love Pcars series accept that you as WMD have a lot of stuff to fix, so while I could of left a negative review and told people to not buy Pcars2 I have given strong reviews and defended the company because I believe in Ian Bell and his vision. You at WMD must also accept as great as Pcars 2 is, the customers are being very supportive and patient while you fix stuff that frankly, some school boy errors to allow into a finished product, for something that was "Over staffed".

I wish no detraction from the devs or the team, they should be congratulated, give your customers some slack though as some are not patient, some spent allot of hard earned money and some get terribly frustrated, doesn't mean they are inherently bad or not good for this community.

Rhetorical Question:- Why am I not owed a response to a genuine question?? Did I not go to work? Earn my money? Then hand allot of that money over for a product? If I bought a physical item from Amazon and it didn't work as intended I would write to the supplier and they would be expected to respond? If they did not, I would write a damming review and as more people get the same ethic from the supplier the supplier rating drops, as does their revenue. Just a thought.

Mahjik
27-09-2017, 18:38
if I know that the error is known and is worked on then I am already satisfied.
But as long as no one writes something from whence should I know then?

I now assume that the pit lane on the Nordschleife soon open:eagerness:

Edit: "We know" thank you

No one said it was an error...

Mahjik
27-09-2017, 18:42
I dont know Ian Bell at all but I would imagine that isn't his end goal, he strikes me as a straight talking honest guy that takes no shit, but his customers seem to be a high priority, and would communicate when and how he can as much as possible and expect the same from his team.

Just to note, SMS staff are not required to post here. There is a process for them to receive information on issues and a communication process for them to relay information to moderators here as they see fit. The few staff members that do post, do it because they want to; there is no requirement. To be blatantly honest, we should be happy for the interaction we do get as most development teams these days do not interact at all. Yes, there are a handful of standouts which do, but those are not the norm.

Ramjet
28-09-2017, 00:19
You, over most here since you were in WMD1, should understand that SMS doesn't owe anyone an explanation. They may or may not provide background to design decisions they have made, but demanding a response is not going to make it happen.

Sorry Mahjik, I definitely did not demand a response in my wording and simply wanted clarification if by design or bug. Some WMD users did know and their explanation is appreciated, thanks.:)

Kaerar
28-09-2017, 05:38
No one said it was an error...

Correct, no-one said anything. It's a pretty easy question to address. Why was there no pit lane on Industriefarhten. There's one there IRL and I would have assumed it to be scanned when SMS got the scan data for the track. It's also present in most of the other representations of the circuit, so honestly it's a valid question that got shut down without a reasonable response. Harsh responses really don't appease anyone especially when the question is actually a valid one.

Bavarian Turbo
28-09-2017, 14:05
No one said it was an error...

is the pit lane on the Nordschleife now closed for ever or will it sometime still open as in Part 1?

indent
28-09-2017, 14:20
... depends on which target group you want to achieve with it - if pCars 2 really wants to be taken seriously, you should fix such missteps as the closed pit on the Nordschleife :cool: (similar thing: no Replay-TV-Cams at Historic Monza)

Mahjik
28-09-2017, 15:08
is the pit lane on the Nordschleife now closed for ever or will it sometime still open as in Part 1?

No one (outside of SMS) knows at this point. Even WMD2 doesn't have that information. Several have asked, so if more information is known it will be shared.

Patrik Marek
01-10-2017, 06:19
One speculation was that this could be due to pit crew animation, hard to tell if that's the reason

hopefully it gets fixed

touristfahrten version of the track would be awesome, but not sure if that's coming

Funkmaster
04-10-2017, 16:58
I really do think the community deserves to know whether this is a bug (that's being worked on) or not. We all paid a lot of money for this game, most likely with the assumption that the Nordschleife would be at least as functional as it was in the original pcars. I'm not demanding an answer, but as a customer I'd feel better if SMS offered something better than what's been posted in this thread. People (myself at least) don't trust game developers much anymore - I like SMS, but I'm having nightmares about a "Historic Green Hell" track being used to pad the DLC. Remember, people joked about crab armour once...

Roger Prynne
04-10-2017, 17:48
I really do think the community deserves to know whether this is a bug (that's being worked on) or not. We all paid a lot of money for this game, most likely with the assumption that the Nordschleife would be at least as functional as it was in the original pcars. I'm not demanding an answer, but as a customer I'd feel better if SMS offered something better than what's been posted in this thread. People (myself at least) don't trust game developers much anymore - I like SMS, but I'm having nightmares about a "Historic Green Hell" track being used to pad the DLC. Remember, people joked about crab armour once...

For the umpteenth time it is not a bug but a design decision.

pa_pinkelman
04-10-2017, 18:27
For the umpteenth time it is not a bug but a design decision.

If that is the case then would you please tell us the reason behind this decision?

Roger Prynne
04-10-2017, 18:55
No one (outside of SMS) knows at this point. Even WMD2 doesn't have that information. Several have asked, so if more information is known it will be shared.
This.

GTsimms
04-10-2017, 19:13
lol the title [We know]

Lawndarts
04-10-2017, 23:08
The reality here is the track seems to be incomplete. The devs have their reasons, could be as simple as the same issues from pcars 1. But without the ability to pit your pretty much forced to reset when you run out of gas and that's inconsistant with how pcars 2 plays and I'm guessing it will get attention if only because it's not consistent and resetting isn't likely a permanent answer to enjoying that layout. They either needed to block it off or not include it with the intention of addressing it later but what's clear here is they aren't ready to commit an answer. And not including it all might have generated more noise.

Oh, and the thread title saying "we know" and not "as designed" is pretty encouraging.

Civic
04-10-2017, 23:22
In ways the whole PCARS2 experience seems a bit like an abusive relationship at times.

SMS say they care, the mods here also tell us SMS care but then there is the constant "design choice" excuse that is used when people complain about something.

It boggles the mind. The customers are unhappy, saying the thing they are unhappy about was deliberate makes it worse not better.

SMS if your customers are saying your design choice is wrong it's clearly a bad choice. Perhaps I am really that out of touch but I thought the goal was meant to be customer satisfaction.

Roger Prynne
04-10-2017, 23:34
Good grief Civic, you do run 'Hot & Cold' don't you.

Lawndarts
04-10-2017, 23:50
SMS can't be all things to everyone and we all think our own hot button issues are the most important and we impose that on them. 'Tis the nature of gamers and developers.

Civic
05-10-2017, 00:00
Good grief Civic, you do run 'Hot & Cold' don't you.

Hot and Cold. Love and Hate. Why is it some people can only deal in absolutes?

As long as I'm on the fence I can step into either yard.

I'm really not that hard to understand.

I have a low tolerance for B.S.
I have a low tolerance for double standards.
I try to do the right thing.
I expect others to try and do the right thing.
I don't respect those who have no regard for what is right.
I expect those who demand respect to show respect.
To those who show no respect I show no respect.
I sometimes like to mess with those people without them knowing I'm messing with them. Such as Trolling the Troll.
I'll support something that is right.
I'll argue against something that is wrong.
I'm always forgiving.
I normally only forgive those who are sorry.
If I was wrong I'll forgive you even if you are not sorry but I'll let you know "just don't let it happen again".

I guess to some I'm complex. If someone is simply bad or good, nice or an ass... perhaps someone who's behaviour is appropriate for the moment can be a little hard to understand.

cxMilk
05-10-2017, 00:06
Not aimed at you, Civic, but those who may generally hold the idea that SMS may not care. I've never thought as such myself seeing how well SMS handled pCars1 post release, but if there's anything that's really made me say, "Wow, SMS really does listen to its consumers," is the thread about the historic Monza layout (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?53428-Monza-historic-oval), namely post 14 (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?53428-Monza-historic-oval&p=1376797&viewfull=1#post1376797). I dropped my jaw when I originally read that.

Civic
05-10-2017, 00:24
Not aimed at you, Civic, but those who may generally hold the idea that SMS may not care. I've never thought as such myself seeing how well SMS handled pCars1 post release, but if there's anything that's really made me say, "Wow, SMS really does listen to its consumers," is the thread about the historic Monza layout (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?53428-Monza-historic-oval), namely post 14 (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?53428-Monza-historic-oval&p=1376797&viewfull=1#post1376797). I dropped my jaw when I originally read that.

There is a saying that could see me get an infraction but the censored version is "The sun even shines on a dogs ... some days!"

Click on that post and click on Ian Bell and click on his forum posts for my counter argument. The post you linked is what I would refer to as the exception.

Blueflight
05-10-2017, 06:14
I hope this bug will get fixed soon.

Invincible
05-10-2017, 06:41
I hope this bug will get fixed soon.

It isn't a bug.

Bealdor
05-10-2017, 06:43
I hope this bug will get fixed soon.

Who said that it's a bug?

Ixoye56
05-10-2017, 06:59
I made a request of Track Day/Touristenfahrten Mode on the WMD forum at an early stage, it was taken into consideration by SMS, but unfortunately it was cancelled at later stage.

Roger Prynne
05-10-2017, 08:01
Hot and Cold. Love and Hate. Why is it some people can only deal in absolutes?

As long as I'm on the fence I can step into either yard.

I'm really not that hard to understand.

I have a low tolerance for B.S.
I have a low tolerance for double standards.
I try to do the right thing.
I expect others to try and do the right thing.
I don't respect those who have no regard for what is right.
I expect those who demand respect to show respect.
To those who show no respect I show no respect.
I sometimes like to mess with those people without them knowing I'm messing with them. Such as Trolling the Troll.
I'll support something that is right.
I'll argue against something that is wrong.
I'm always forgiving.
I normally only forgive those who are sorry.
If I was wrong I'll forgive you even if you are not sorry but I'll let you know "just don't let it happen again".

I guess to some I'm complex. If someone is simply bad or good, nice or an ass... perhaps someone who's behaviour is appropriate for the moment can be a little hard to understand.

Good answer and I appreciate it.
I'm a bit like that in some regards myself, and some of those things I can understand.
It's just that it's hard to read people sometimes.
So no hard feelings, carry on as you were, unless you step out of line of course ;)

Leper Messiah
05-10-2017, 08:06
What kind of check is that? Deleting posts you don't like? You guys are representing ProjectCars, not your personal attitudes.

LOL same thing goes on in other sims official forums, do you complain about them too? I've had run ins with mods of countless forums, been banned had temp bans, some justified, some I'd think I had a case to argue, had some comments removed and a warning from AC mods the other day.

Blueflight
05-10-2017, 14:06
It isn't a bug.

What is it then? Please donīt tell me itīs a design decision.
That would make PCars the only racing game available with a nordschleife which is not able to have a race on.
And no, I donīt like to use the combined layout for that, the nordschleife is the nordschleife.

Roger Prynne
05-10-2017, 14:50
For the umpteenth time it is not a bug but a design decision.


No one (outside of SMS) knows at this point. Even WMD2 doesn't have that information. Several have asked, so if more information is known it will be shared.


Who said that it's a bug?

This.

moustace
05-10-2017, 15:18
One of my favorite tracks in Pcars, the decision to exclude the pits is wrong. Please get it back!

J4M35_R
05-10-2017, 15:21
Is it definitely confirmed then ? :mad:

ImpliedConsent
05-10-2017, 17:52
Is it definitely confirmed then ? :mad:


For the umpteenth time it is not a bug but a design decision.

There 'ya go.

clanky
07-10-2017, 00:36
Odd design, but I guess they did it for a reason? Maybe? I dunno. I would like pits there, just sayin'

bmanic
07-10-2017, 01:29
It's indeed a very weird decision. Then again, I always race on the combined version but in multiplayer the Nordschleife only version is much more common.. so yeah, very strange indeed.

Civic
07-10-2017, 01:44
I know I've already replied to the quote above but just reading it again irritates me that people actually say that. All the biggest Sim Racing developers interact with their communities. To imply SMS are doing something others don't in this regard is false and there are others who I feel do a better job than SMS when it comes to interacting with their communities and keeping them up to date. This is not an attack on SMS, it's a defence of the others who do an excellent job at interacting with the community and keeping people up to date and saying this doesn't happen just isn't true.

Avextro
07-10-2017, 01:49
Okay I didnít read the entire thread but I read a few pages and didnít see this brought up.
Yes, the pits Kay not function properly all the time and cars may get stuck and that is why they donít allow the pits...

Or what if it would be too limiting for a circuit of its caliber. The max amount of cars (up to the limits) is determined by how many pit boxes there are, and itís not like itís a long pit lane.

FrankBN
07-10-2017, 02:21
I'd love the tourist Nord, especially when dedicated servers are good to go. Then I'll only launch Assetto Corsa to drift Akina instead of to use Nord pits.

Genus
07-10-2017, 14:36
Yes, SMS is aware of the thread. However, that doesn't mean they owe anyone a comment.

Is that in the ToS anywhere?

Mahjik
07-10-2017, 15:10
Is that in the ToS anywhere?

I'll flip the question around... Where in any ToS does it require the manufacturer of a product to be at the customer's beck and call to answer any and all questions around design decisions for their product?

I'll answer that for you, which is there isn't... There is no requirement for any product (software, hardware, food, etc) that the manufacturer is required to divulge any or all information around decisions they made to provide the produced product.

BongoFury23
12-10-2017, 10:30
There is still no training and qualifying @ Nordschleife after the patch. There are many users who are doing most training and meetings @ Nordschleife. It's not the same with Nurburgring Combined, we will have our laptimes from Nordschleife only, to compare cars, settings and driving skills... like any manufacturer and driver does in the real world ;) And I guess in all racing games it's the one of the most driven tracks for more than one good reason...

I know it's a design decision, not a bug. I know you guys have a lot of other things to do now, and I don't need an answer to this post.

Don't wanna wave with my handbag too, but please, don't forget this issue.

DreamsKnight
12-10-2017, 12:17
honestly, i'm loving the thing. hot tyres, push pedals and i go. could be a great option added in each track.

also cause the lack of tire blankets as an option is bad.

EmilGlockner
12-10-2017, 21:18
Very strange decision if this is deliberate. It's like having no pit lane at le mans. Hope it's a bug.

Not at all strange. Le Mans is a permanent racetrack with pitlanes. Nordschleife was a permanent racetrack that also happened to be an open toll road. Now it isn't a permanent racetrack anymore. No pits. What we really should try to get working for the 3rd installment of that track would be the touristenfahrt layout with the carpark (and the roundabout). :)

dault3883
12-10-2017, 21:22
agreed now a days there is only one series that does more than one race on it and its the VLN series other than that there really is only a hand full of races done on it. most of the other times its just test days and private test runs on the track.

not to mention as iv said before if you really must run it with pits there IS always the option of firing up Pcars 1 and running it there

pa_pinkelman
16-10-2017, 19:03
Come on guys? Seriously, what use is a racetrack without a pits? This is probably the most famous racetrack ever, featured in every serious sim to date.

LibranRabbit
16-10-2017, 19:47
While we're @ Nordschleife, how about nŁrburgring touristenfahrten? Would be great to sit on the parking lot, all different types of cars around, cars entering and coming off the track randomly. You could move around the parking lot checking out the various "rides". For when you are in a cruising mood or just want to play around.Not to mention going around the track.

honespc
24-10-2017, 16:52
No pits at the Nords. Design decision.., lol.

Great design decision then sms!, thanks to this we can no longer have our touristenhs..., whatever old good pc1 server was named after, which btw was always the most populated one , just in case you didn't know of it. So this "design decision" is sooo smart!! Well done!!

And no thanks I don't even want to know the reason at this point. Just hope it is because of the pit animations, but you could just simply them pc1 style then as some sort fo workaround, right?

..

sisollazzo
24-10-2017, 17:17
Come on guys? Seriously, what use is a racetrack without a pits? This is probably the most famous racetrack ever, featured in every serious sim to date.

You're right!!
So a nice track without a pit lane.
I'm loving the event in PC1 on the Nordschleife with RUF!
They should open the pit lane:mad:

BrandonWright77
24-10-2017, 17:30
Not at all strange. Le Mans is a permanent racetrack with pitlanes. Nordschleife was a permanent racetrack that also happened to be an open toll road. Now it isn't a permanent racetrack anymore. No pits. What we really should try to get working for the 3rd installment of that track would be the touristenfahrt layout with the carpark (and the roundabout). :)

Le Mans is mostly public roads. As has been noted, there are pits on the Nordschleife layout in the real-world and real-world series still use them.

MaXyM
24-10-2017, 22:47
I'll flip the question around... Where in any ToS does it require the manufacturer of a product to be at the customer's beck and call to answer any and all questions around design decisions for their product?

I'll answer that for you, which is there isn't... There is no requirement for any product (software, hardware, food, etc) that the manufacturer is required to divulge any or all information around decisions they made to provide the produced product.

Actually, most of other manufacturers over the world gives you product which has specified and described number of features and at the same time is not a bunch of issues/bugs and unfinished features. It doesn't mean all are bugs-free. But I have feeling pC2 is ready to beat world-record at this. I know it might hurt. But really, every single step of user experience I (we in league) faced so far, is affected by bugs. UI, setups, racing, multiplayer, weather, setups, sound, gfx, dedicated server. There is no part of game we can rest enjoying a pleasure without facing some issues, while a lot of them are game breakers. Any single part of the game is unfinished while sold for full price. Let me ask you: do you know any another category of products you are buying, which are so broken like games (I intentionally doesn't mention only pC2 because I'm assuming this is a trend in gaming industry).
I know that nowadays it is how it works. A few years ago it was trendy to sell open beta access. I had known it is bad idea and it will be over sooner rather than later. It already has happened. Today, we got quality of early beta to be sold as full version. :(
And what is even worse: developer doesn't respond to any questions & complaints. He rather uses volunteers to speak on behalf of him. And a response often sounds like an attempt to cut complaints out or turn them against complainer rather then take the blame on himself.

Let's back to manufacturers you are usually buying products of. By buying TV you are expecting it will be equipped with features that are common for such device, and described in manual, for example will support various input signals, has particular OS, back-light or other features. Right? Did you bought any of such piece of technology, and heard 'Have you seen multi-band device 100% working?' while eventually trying to complain?
At the end all those features are described in manual, so you can learn about the product before you buy. Let me ask: is there any manual of Project Cars 2 containing complete information about it's features? Just to make it clear what could I expect and what is a design choice. For example information which circuit gives possibility of pitting and which does not? I'm sure there is none, otherwise you would defend with WYSWYG argument.

Sorry being honest. Probably I would take myself a break even this time. I'm really put up with all those bugs any single title has today. But defending those titles and theirs developers, calling bugs a features, and missing things a design choice... Isn't it overstatement already?

cpcdem
25-10-2017, 00:09
The thing is, that with a tv or most similar products, there's a very given feature set that they have and is relatively easy to test. I don't think there are many people needed to test a tv under different usage scenarios, because there are not too many different scenarios. In this game, just thinking about the AI for example, there are some 20,000 combinations of of tracks/cars that it needs to run correctly in, and this is extremely difficult to A) implement and B) test. Now add to that all the various different weather types supported by PCARS, pit stops or not, different tires etc. It's a game of massive complexity, and this sample was only about AI...

It's inevitable that there will be several bugs and even (many) more will be found at the moment the game is released, so from a few dozens or 100s of people using/testing it, it goes suddenly to 100,000s of people. Having said that, I agree there exist also some bugs which I think normally should not be there at all anyway, like some obvious UI bugs. But let's give the guys the benefit of the doubt, maybe those were last moment bugs, they didn't have the time to fix them, or for some reason indeed they didn't notice them. Let's give them some time to fix them and in the meantime appreciate the enormous amount of features that do work, and when they work, I think you will agree that in PC2 they work brilliantly. I think the guys deserve a lot of respect for what they have achieved so far and also some patience to improve that even more.

Getting back to bugs, what about Windows for example, it's done by a huge company, with massively large beta testing team and it is still (after dozens of years!) plagued with bugs! Every day there's something new to be frustrated with in it. And think about the price of it and of other products that you mentioned, compared to this game..

Edit: Ah and about communication and responses from the devs, I've been to MS forums several times for various issues, I never saw Bill G. replying or giving his own input to any of them..that's not of course to underestimate the involvement of all the other dev team members that also frequently do communicate through this forum as well and give their valuable input. Or would you expect the devs to respond to every single post/request/bug report that's being made here themselves? This is being handled very nicely by the mods who are obviously in close cooperation with the devs and I don't think I'm kissing *** by saying that they do an excellent job. And about the exact way they are affiliated with SMS, I am also wondering about that, but it's none of my business, that's a matter between the mods and SMS only.

GTsimms
25-10-2017, 10:42
In WMD 2, I've had so much interaction with the Devs. You will not have this with any other game on the market. I might be a mod here at the forum, now! But, it did not happen until the week of Project CARS 2 release.

SMS is actively working on features, which will fix some of the user reported issues. They do not have time to respond to every posting. I have not had time to respond to a lot of threads myself.

Bugs and features! So, why one issue may seem to be broken. The feature may have not been fully implemented, yet. That is why some issues/bugs may be reported as broken. The coming patch should fix a number of the actual issues reported and they will have some of the missing planned features added. Which, we cannot get into details at this time unless approval comes from SMS as with any fixed game bug. A mod requested the nvidia blinking lights and the reply was yes. So, it got posted, the fix was in the coming patch as even some of us mods tested the fix.

DLC, it's going to be good. That's all, that I can say!

MaXyM
25-10-2017, 12:38
Bugs and features! So, why one issue may seem to be broken. The feature may have not been fully implemented, yet.

That's the point! Nowadays manufacturers sell products full of not fully implemented features. You really have wrote this!
Do you really think, it is right to sell unfinished product? Imagine you are buying unfinished car, unfinished washing machine or boots. Really? What makes game industry different from others that there is silent allowance of selling intentionally unfinished products as final ones?
And I'm not talking about content postponed to DLC. I'm talking about serious, game-breaking issues.

IMO it is entirely wrong. It shouldn't happen should be prohibited and prosecuted.
Again, I'm not bashing SMS developers. Since I'm working in software industry I know that it's not uncommon that quality of final product is affected by strategic decisions. But it doesn't change the fact it's simply not fair to a customer.

BTW post-release support someone mentioned. Do you really think customer should be thankful for being able to buy a 'crap' which receive patches for next 2 years and ends up still unfinished? Why should be thankful for not being able to use 100% bought product he has paid for at day one? Really cannot understand the logic.
You can say today, games are more complex. Really? 15 years ago, AAA games been taking 5 years to develop. Nowadays those titles are released even every year. And new releases still contain issues found (and reported) in their predecessor. Something is totally off, don't you think?
Some may say, that development is more expensive. Maybe yes, maybe not. But for sure electronic distribution is cheaper and coverage wider.

I suppose there is a world-wide culture evolved which treats such situation normal and proper. It seems I'm too old be ok with that, even if I have to accept the fact.

with regards

Sankyo
25-10-2017, 12:51
That's the point! Nowadays manufacturers sell products full of not fully implemented features. You really have wrote this!
Do you really think, it is right to sell unfinished product? Imagine you are buying unfinished car, unfinished washing machine or boots. Really? What makes game industry different from others that there is silently allowed to sell intentionally unfinished product as final one?
And I'm not talking about content postponed and planned as DLC. I'm talking about serious, game-breaking issues.

IMO it is entirely wrong. It shouldn't happen should be prohibited and prosecuted.
Again, I'm not bashing SMS developers. Since I'm working in software industry I know that it's not uncommon that quality of final product is affected by strategic decisions. But it doesn't change the fact it's simply not fair to a customer.
Perhaps the rules should be adapted to reflect the situation as it is. Software is getting a level of complexity that makes it near-impossible to release it bug-free, including major bugs. What software makers should be obliged to do is making sure that major, functionality-breaking bugs have to be fixed (soon) after release. Making it a law to release fault-free products is denying reality and hampering progress because software developers will not be able to explore new, higher-risk territory and will just rehash proven technology.


BTW post-release support someone mentioned. Do you really think customer should be thankful for being able to buy a 'crap' which receive patches through next 2 years and ends up still unfinished? Why should be thankful for not being able to use 100% bought product he has paid for at day one? Really cannot understand the logic. I suppose there is a world-wide culture evolved which treats such situation normal and proper. It seems I'm too old be ok with that, even if I have to accept the fact.
Perhaps this is the new normal, even though it's not ideal. If something is really 'crap', the reviews will reveal it and you can make up your mind whether you buy it or not. When major issues turn up that were not seen before release and during reviews, the only option is for the developer to fix it.

And as above, as software is getting more complex, it may be the situation we have to get used to.

Keena
25-10-2017, 13:38
A few minutes research will reveal SMS is not structured like a 'traditional' studio, and depends much more on the community for development. Once you realise this and can create some context for the issues, it's not so frustrating. The only criticism of SMS I would level would be that they didn't market this aspect so the consumer community as a whole might feel confused or miss-led. This is not a statement on whether it not this is accurate, just a view on why people might be frustrated. :)

Keena
25-10-2017, 13:45
And anyone who plays arma 3 will know about unwanted features. Complexity can result in unwanted consequences.

Keena
25-10-2017, 13:46
Perhaps the rules should be adapted to reflect the situation as it is. Software is getting a level of complexity that makes it near-impossible to release it bug-free, including major bugs. What software makers should be obliged to do is making sure that major, functionality-breaking bugs have to be fixed (soon) after release. Making it a law to release fault-free products is denying reality and hampering progress because software developers will not be able to explore new, higher-risk territory and will just rehash proven technology.


Perhaps this is the new normal, even though it's not ideal. If something is really 'crap', the reviews will reveal it and you can make up your mind whether you buy it or not. When major issues turn up that were not seen before release and during reviews, the only option is for the developer to fix it.

And as above, as software is getting more complex, it may be the situation we have to get used to.

Excellent points, well made!

cpcdem
25-10-2017, 13:57
No I also don't like it that games are released with bugs, I wish it wasn't like that. But since you're in the software business, then you know that in order to make sure that such a complex piece of software is released completely (or 99%) bug free, then you need to run a very long and wide beta (in which time you shouldn't be adding any new features) and also cut down the feature list a lot. Yeah, I am sure if SMS included only 10-20 tracks in the game, 30 cars, no weather, day/night progression and effects, or fancy stuff like pit crew animations and all other sorts of stuff they have included, then yes, the game would had most probably been much more bug free on day one. Personally I am glad they went for the long shot, they tried to include an insane amount of content and features, which I don't think is what you typical see in other titles..And yes, this probably has lead to many bugs been known or found on release. It's not ideal, but probably within a couple months of release, at least the important ones will be fixed. In the meantime, I can enjoy what does work (and it's A LOT that does work, isn't it?) and enjoy the rest when the bugs are fixed. If there were a lot less features included on day one, I don't think we would have seem too much added later, but now they are already there.

And to be honest, personally I arrived to PCars 1 quite late and I was indeed disappointed to see that a 2 year old game still had a lot of problems (although I still did enjoy it a lot). If it's gonna be the same with PC2, then I will be also very disappointed. But from what I see so far, this does not seem to be the case, the guys sound determined to fix the issues as soon as possible, it's actually the base quality of the game that deserves it to be more bug free and then it will be an absolutely awesome game. If in a couple months there are still many issues, then I will agree with you, but I don't think that this will be the case.

honespc
25-10-2017, 14:00
That's the point! Nowadays manufacturers sell products full of not fully implemented features. You really have wrote this!
Do you really think, it is right to sell unfinished product? Imagine you are buying unfinished car, unfinished washing machine or boots. Really? What makes game industry different from others that there is silent allowance of selling intentionally unfinished products as final ones?
And I'm not talking about content postponed to DLC. I'm talking about serious, game-breaking issues.

IMO it is entirely wrong. It shouldn't happen should be prohibited and prosecuted.
Again, I'm not bashing SMS developers. Since I'm working in software industry I know that it's not uncommon that quality of final product is affected by strategic decisions. But it doesn't change the fact it's simply not fair to a customer.

BTW post-release support someone mentioned. Do you really think customer should be thankful for being able to buy a 'crap' which receive patches for next 2 years and ends up still unfinished? Why should be thankful for not being able to use 100% bought product he has paid for at day one? Really cannot understand the logic.
You can say today, games are more complex. Really? 15 years ago, AAA games been taking 5 years to develop. Nowadays those titles are released even every year. And new releases still contain issues found (and reported) in their predecessor. Something is totally off, don't you think?
Some may say, that development is more expensive. Maybe yes, maybe not. But for sure electronic distribution is cheaper and coverage wider.

I suppose there is a world-wide culture evolved which treats such situation normal and proper. It seems I'm too old be ok with that, even if I have to accept the fact.

with regardsAbsolutely.

It is most obvious we are participating in a full year worldwide beta testing process, right precisely the extra time this game needed to be released in the status we should find it in ten months approximately. What a coincidence uh. <<Hey it was publisher Bamco that pushed, or rushed us to release the game under such embarrassing functional status!!>>. So what?, it's your problem not ours. <<Software is getting more complex you don't know the intriquiquqiuq of software development you blahblah perhaps a new culture thing (lol to this one, seriously?) blahblha".. zzZZz keep selling us the pup zzZz. That's your business to deal with developers, not ours!


To me the most biggest consequence apart from those who affect ourselves as testing users of a yet not finished product, is that community size keeps bleeding losing members in a monthly basis, as we could have it no other way cause people ain't that stupid and want to pŗy for something that is fully working, all of them legitimately frustrated with the hundred issues, many of those as embarrassing and bordering on game breaking as the setup save/loading/ car physics porting to the next one issues(this last one is crazy and was in pc1 as well), we have to deal with.


The ones that should be grateful is you, developers, for getting our support through a full year of mind souring beta testing, that by any means we shouldn't be obligated to go through. Don't try to sell the pup that we should be grateful for this and for that. It's you that should be grateful, come on!, so please have a little respect for we, those who support you even under this conditions, and don't try us to take communion with a grind for a host.

oh how dramatic did I sound right?, Sure you must be reading this with a face of total indifference toward us, your legit customers, and perhaps even laughing out loud too. But get one thing straight: money is hard to earn for the rest of us too. Software is complex you say?, culture this or that?, your problem, not ours. Deal with it. We boys pay, you boys deliver.

Invincible
25-10-2017, 14:29
Absolutely.

It is most obvious we are participating in a full year worldwide beta testing process, right precisely the extra time this game needed to be released in the status we should find it in ten months approximately. What a coincidence uh. <<Hey it was publisher Bamco that pushed, or rushed us to release the game under such embarrassing functional status!!>>. So what?, it's your problem not ours. <<Software is getting more complex you don't know the intriquiquqiuq of software development you blahblah perhaps a new culture thing (lol to this one, seriously?) blahblha".. zzZZz keep selling us the pup zzZz. That's your business to deal with developers, not ours!


To me the most biggest consequence apart from those who affect ourselves as testing users of a yet not finished product, is that community size keeps bleeding losing members in a monthly basis, as we could have it no other way cause people ain't that stupid and want to pŗy for something that is fully working, all of them legitimately frustrated with the hundred issues, many of those as embarrassing and bordering on game breaking as the setup save/loading/ car physics porting to the next one issues(this last one is crazy and was in pc1 as well), we have to deal with.


The ones that should be grateful is you, developers, for getting our support through a full year of mind souring beta testing, that by any means we shouldn't be obligated to go through. Don't try to sell the pup that we should be grateful for this and for that. It's you that should be grateful, come on!, so please have a little respect for we, those who support you even under this conditions, and don't try us to take communion with a grind for a host.

oh how dramatic did I sound right?, Sure you must be reading this with a face of total indifference toward us, your legit customers, and perhaps even laughing out loud too. But get one thing straight: money is hard to earn for the rest of us too. Software is complex you say?, culture this or that?, your problem, not ours. Deal with it. We boys pay, you boys deliver.

With your arguments, soon there wouldn't be anything to deliver. Games would either become ridiculously expensive or just don't get produced right from the start. Studios would slowly start to vanish and the game market would become very, very sparse.
"Oh, you need to ship this game soon or go bankrupt? Your problem, I demand a bug-free product."
THe game developers that would survive in such a environment wouldn't even dare to actually develop new stuff because it could introduce more bug than they can fix prior to the release. The consequence? No new features, no new gaming experiences.

I totally understand that customers (I am one too) want a fault free product. But that just isn't possible anymore due to the complexity. If you want complexity AND bug-free stuff, you will need much longer development cycles which will eventually result in games which cost 200 Ä. You cannot pay +150 devs for five years from selling 3 million copies of a 60 Ä game.

MaXyM
25-10-2017, 15:41
so what? if it happen world will be better because we will got rid of games and game developers will die like dinosaurs.
But I wouldn't be worry about it. It's not gonna happen.
Ther is something you are probably not familiar with: supply and demand.

the only reason we get a crap is we buy it. there is nothing more. Once we stop do that we get quality.
The main problem is, globalization allows this phenomenon to be driven by so called long tail effect. so probably it's gonna take more time. More time durring with providers
will abuse this fact

ermo
25-10-2017, 15:49
Perhaps the rules should be adapted to reflect the situation as it is. Software is getting a level of complexity that makes it near-impossible to release it bug-free, including major bugs. What software makers should be obliged to do is making sure that major, functionality-breaking bugs have to be fixed (soon) after release.
(...)
If something is really 'crap', the reviews will reveal it and you can make up your mind whether you buy it or not. When major issues turn up that were not seen before release and during reviews, the only option is for the developer to fix it.

Another option is to launch a title as 'Open Beta'/'Early Access' with a limited number of pre-release keys that include access to post to the Open Beta Forum.

So, you pay full price for the game (and get the preorder bonus) and you gain early access with the implication that the game isn't bug free and that you don't get to throw your toys out of the pram if you hit a bug. Instead, you get to report it and help make the game better.

Then two to three months after the Open Beta (v1.0 + D1P) launched and after a patch or three has landed as well, the game is introduced as a proper release to the general public, still at full price.

Just imagine if people had treated pC2 like this instead of as a finished article at release -- it would have saved us all a lot of angst and grinding of teeth. The early adopters would have gotten access, knowing full well that they'd likely encounter bugs and inconsistencies. The more conservative users could have waited a few months and then pulled the trigger at full price around the end of Novemeber/early December while getting a chance to see the game mature via reviews, YouTube videos and Open Beta forum posts.

The only thing we can control at this point is user expectations, as the software complexity has clearly reached a point where you NEED extended periods for beta-testing.

Mahjik
25-10-2017, 16:42
Ok... This has strayed too far from the topic.. Everyone is welcome to continue the conversation in the Off-topic section, but let's keep this thread on topic.

Aldo Zampatti
25-10-2017, 19:46
To add to Mahjik's post, please also refrain from the consistent non-constructive whining. That leads everyone nowhere.

If you have something to report, do it and do it properly.
If you don't like something, you're free to post that. Once, not 100 times.
If you don't like the way the game it is right now, nobody is forcing to play it.

I understand that for some people (not everyone, again, plenty of chaps enjoying the game out there) the game is not running 100% as the would have wanted to. S*** happens. For those guys instead of complaining consistently and reaching nowhere but just wasting time and energy, I would encourage you to look for solutions (if you think you deserve a refund, go a get one if EULA allows from the guy you bought the software from). I know some will say "steam 2 hours...", sorry, that's not something SMS can control.

Bug happens and WILL keep happening. WMD Helps a lot but NOT every scenario can and will be tested. Deadlines MUST be met. But SMS is a company that does care unlike some others, and will work their butt off to deliver and they will deliver. WE (the mod team) work right next to SMS to make sure that every little detail affecting even the smallest group of users gets the Devs attention, I think that it sometimes under-rated.

Again, I'm not going to argue forward, and I'm not going to expand forward. This is the way I PERSONALLY as an individual think, and by no means this is a message from SMS or the MOD team.

lancashirelad
26-10-2017, 15:32
Personally i had not noticed no pits at Nordshleife because i had not got round to racing there yet, lots of other things to explore in this game.
I can understand some of the frustration but the game is massive and as it has been said before it would be difficult to test every scenario.
I do however think the decision to outsource the testing for the console versions needs to be accessed for future titles, i also think a hand picked few sim racers with different wheels on PS4 and XBOX would be a good idea.
Back on topic, as i have said the game is massive and you can see the love and dedication put into it, bugs are being worked on and the fact this track has no pits is just a small detail imo.
Enjoy what is there and be patient for the patches.

MaXyM
26-10-2017, 17:15
Personally i had not noticed no pits at Nordshleife because i had not got round to racing there yet, lots of other things to explore in this game.
I can understand some of the frustration but the game is massive and as it has been said before it would be difficult to test every scenario.

Let me comment the bolder part.
Almost every valuable thing on the world is difficult. Programming itself is difficult but we are surrounded by software nowadays and no one made step back from programming just because of difficulty. Testing is difficult like every other job.
Since programmer doesn't do his job without design, the design can be transformed into test cases. In fact tester has to test what has been required to be developed. Nothing more.
It's not like, tester gets the game and has to find all issues by himself. He has kinda 'tutorial' how all features have to work and how cannot.
Believe me, there is no any magic in that. You have just go for properly sized QA team and give to it resources (time, money, tools etc).
Ussually not tested means: there was no time to test (which is management failure) or there were no other resources like money, which is usually way how to save some money.

Again: more complex product requires more testing than simpler one. It's the fact. But it doesn't mean it's impossible to assure quality at all. Just it requires some resources. It's on provider of goods he would like to invest for quality or not.

Sankyo
26-10-2017, 17:33
Ussually not tested means: there was no time to test (which is management failure) or there were no other resources like money, which is usually way how to save some money.
One has to admire your ability to bend everything towards blaming the software developer for incompetence or shady practices instead of admitting that the world isn't perfect and compromises have to be made more often than not in business.

MaXyM
26-10-2017, 17:51
One has to admire your ability to bend everything towards blaming the software developer for incompetence or shady practices instead of admitting that the world isn't perfect and compromises have to be made more often than not in business.

I'm not bending anything. Just answering the suggestion that complex piece of software cannot be properly tested. Ironic is, that most pC2 issues are not comes from physisc which is most complex part of the game but from UI which should be easiest to test.

BTW As I mentioned I'm from siftware industry (developer, architect recently). We develop, we test we are obliqued to provide quality product to customer. Otherwise we would loose leading position on a market. So yes, I know world is not black & white, but I know most of sw development approaches while no one works as some of this forum contributirs are supposing.

Mahjik
26-10-2017, 18:11
I'm not bending anything. Just answering the suggestion that complex piece of software cannot be properly tested. Ironic is, that most pC2 issues are not comes from physisc which is most complex part of the game but from UI which should be easiest to test.

That's enough. It's already been stated:


Ok... This has strayed too far from the topic.. Everyone is welcome to continue the conversation in the Off-topic section, but let's keep this thread on topic.


Yes, I used to be a software developer myself (20 years of it). We aren't bench programming here. If you want to work for SMS, they typically post open positions on their website. Other than that, this is not the place for that conversation.

MaXyM
26-10-2017, 23:47
No, I'm not looking for new job, and I'm far from benching enything. I'm answering to someones post in this thread.

Mahjik
27-10-2017, 00:41
No, I'm not looking for new job, and I'm far from benching enything. I'm answering to someones post in this thread.

Keep it on topic, last warning.

gigidag77
31-10-2017, 14:19
244240

sisollazzo
31-10-2017, 15:23
Open that PIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

grrrillapmp
31-10-2017, 17:50
Lol. This is a joke right?

No pits on the nords, for real? As odd as it might seem that's a deal breaker for me.

I would love to hear the reasoning behind that decision.

Sucks tho because I was waiting for it to be release quality but with this news, now I won't have a new sim racer. Hopefully other developers see sim racing as lucrative and somebody comes along and really knocks it out the park.

Had high hopes.

BrandonWright77
31-10-2017, 18:38
Hopefully other developers see sim racing as lucrative and somebody comes along and really knocks it out the park.


Nah, they'd take one look at the horribly toxic community and quickly decide it wasn't worth the headache.

grrrillapmp
31-10-2017, 20:00
Money will Trump that reasoning. Which I highly doubt would actually stop any developer from putting out a game.

gigidag77
01-11-2017, 04:42
Since there is no logical reason to close the pits here ("Artistic decision" WHAT?) I don't blame an upset community.

TorTorden
01-11-2017, 05:51
Don't know if this has been mentioned before here.
But while the Nordschleife is missing access to the pits.

If you go for the combined option with the GP circuit included it has full pit access.

As for artistic decision, doubtfull.

It's simply that the Nurburgs pit area are in the GP section and not the Nordschleife.

sisollazzo
01-11-2017, 12:32
We want to have a pit lane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Konan
01-11-2017, 12:35
Open that PIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



We want to have a pit lane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Nice...exclamation marks...was just looking for those...thanks :p

Roger Prynne
01-11-2017, 12:37
We want to have a pit lane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think we know that by now.

banner77amc
01-11-2017, 12:39
I found a quick fix for the pit lane issue... pull over where it should be and then hit the refresh/reset button. Its almost like you were actually there except you don't have much to show for it. Its about the feeling right? ;)

Kims0r
21-11-2017, 19:24
Hi all,

in Project cars it was always a lot of fun simulating Touristenfahrten auf der Nordschleife by creating a server at the NŁrburgring Nordschleife with several hours of training and let it run so everybody could join with the (mostly street) car of his choice and just ride together without having stict race rules.
When I now create a server on Project Cars 2 and choose Nordschleife I cannot choose Training or Qualifiying so this isn't possible anymore.
Why is that and why you want to take away that fun?
I suggest that the programmer team makes that possible as soon as possible!
When I come home fom a long working day I just want to ride with some people on my home track and not be forced to stick to race rules. We cannot join the race then, the session gets closed afterwards ...
That's not so cool.
Am I right with that or what do you think? I'm missing that and Multiplayer is not very cool at the moment no matter how cool the environment and the game is.
I love it but I want Touristenfahrten badly! Please bring it back!

m00lean
21-11-2017, 19:33
It's because the Nordschleife does not have pits in pcars2. P and Q sessions are not possible without pits. It's a huge disappointment. I loved to find people to race with or just race against the clock in the public "Touristenfahrten" lobbies.

V3nom
21-11-2017, 19:41
Just take the combined course, I am pretty sure you can do practice and qualifying sessions too.

LockeChris
21-11-2017, 20:19
Just take the combined course, I am pretty sure you can do practice and qualifying sessions too.

Yep, there are already Lobbies doing that, no problem! Of course it's hard to make any sense of not having pits at Nordschleife only, but at least there is a workaround. Maybe we'll also get an update in a patch or something, who knows.

Kims0r
21-11-2017, 21:56
Hm, I'm not happy with this option. There have been pits before (copy and paste for the developers).
When someone knows what's going on, then he knows that people are travelling with their rides from all over Europe and sometimes far more to participate in this. Not to offer Touristenfahrten just because of that tiny step is a big fail! We should at least make sure, that the developers will take notice of that.
And if someone can't imagine how many motorsport fans come to the Ring every day, check this out:

bridgetogantry.com/2/images/stories/1310/queue5.jpg

Great tip from Germany: Do a patch, make free riding on the Nordschleife possible where everyone can join freely anytime.
And a better idea is do it like in reality and make the pit where it is:

nuerburgring.de/fileadmin/webcam/Cams/NOS/snap_c1.jpg

What do you think?

V3nom
21-11-2017, 21:58
Well I can assure you that it would be MUCH more then a copy and paste for the developers.
Nevertheless, it would be a cool idea.

Kims0r
21-11-2017, 22:03
Well I can assure you that it would be MUCH more then a copy and paste for the developers.
Nevertheless, it would be a cool idea.

I know of course, but it has been done before. And as THE state of the art racing simulation that is a very important thing to do next. I can assure you that many people are waiting for this.
In PC1 it was the most alive session online and we were riding with 20+ ppl.

sambat29
21-11-2017, 22:06
Maybe not for that, there is no need for an animated pit for that.

Kims0r
22-11-2017, 18:22
My thread (the last 8 posts here) has been moved from Multiplayer to General Discussion what I think is wrong because it's definately a multiplayer topic. I think the community would love to see a comment from the developers team what their thoughts are for such an issue.
Instead it just feels like the public relations team is just keeping critics (I call it constructive suggestions) away from the main discussion here.

Konan
22-11-2017, 18:32
Multiplayer section was initially meant for announcing multiplayer events...a thread about a track without pits isn't...
Besides,it was merged with an existing similar thread...

Raklodder
22-11-2017, 21:14
Has this been fixed for v1.3?

V3nom
22-11-2017, 21:20
Why should it be fixed? It ain't a bug. :)

Raklodder
22-11-2017, 21:23
I don't know. What if I want to refuel? Where do I go? It's not an open world game (maybe one day) and my GTE is thirsty.

V3nom
22-11-2017, 21:27
I don't know, I wouldn't like to do more than 10 laps on Nordschleife. I think a full tank would be enough here.
Anyhow, I do get your point. But still for the moment you could use the combined circuit. IMO the devs have other stuff of greater importance that need fixing.

Mariangello
22-11-2017, 21:28
Try to calculate the amount of fuel with the number of laps...

Hammerpgh
06-12-2017, 14:29
I am a big fan of Project Cars and played the first one for hundred’s of hours both offline but also in many online leagues but I have only picked up this game recently due to my concerns about it’s released state and only got around to playing it for the first time on Friday. My first port of call being the Nordschliefe in a private testing session as it's one of my favourite and most challenging tracks. The blocked pits and lack of 'Return to Pits' option had me scratching my head at first and then not being able to run a full race session with practice and qualifying had me searching all through the various options and race presets thinking I must be missing something until I finally had to accept that racing this wonderful track properly was no longer possible. Having enjoyed it so much in Project Cars 1 I am very confused as to it’s being handicapped in this way, it just makes no sense to me and especially not having it mentioned in any of the information about the game.

If it’s a design decision it’s a strange one or at least that’s what I have to think with no further information to explain it.

Zaskarspants
06-12-2017, 14:35
I am a big fan of Project Cars and played the first one for hundredís of hours both offline but also in many online leagues but I have only picked up this game recently due to my concerns about itís released state and only got around to playing it for the first time on Friday. My first port of call being the Nordschliefe in a private testing session as it's one of my favourite and most challenging tracks. The blocked pits and lack of 'Return to Pits' option had me scratching my head at first and then not being able to run a full race session with practice and qualifying had me searching all through the various options and race presets thinking I must be missing something until I finally had to accept that racing this wonderful track properly was no longer possible. Having enjoyed it so much in Project Cars 1 I am very confused as to itís being handicapped in this way, it just makes no sense to me and especially not having it mentioned in any of the information about the game.

If itís a design decision itís a strange one or at least thatís what I have to think with no further information to explain it.

It is clear that a solution is within your grasp as mentioned above and earlier in the thread, use the combined NS, is that really so terrible?

V3nom
06-12-2017, 14:38
IMO the combined is even better. It has that chill effect. After racing like a madman, your head almost explodes of concentration and with the combined you get that 1-2 minutes of time to cruise along before you go again on the green hell. :)

Hammerpgh
06-12-2017, 15:00
It is clear that a solution is within your grasp as mentioned above and earlier in the thread, use the combined NS, is that really so terrible?

My penchant is to recreate classic races and with that in mind the combined circuit is not where I wanted to race. Yes I can race it as a workaround but I was not aware on purchasing that I would need to make a workaround to race something that was perfectly fine in the first game. Why would I think otherwise.. there was nothing to indicate that to be the case.

If you bought a game with the Monaco track included would you expect to race anything other than Monaco?

It's not the end of the world as there are of course many other tracks to race (I assume no others have any similar handicap?) but as a BIG fan of that particular track and one that I would have raced more than any other of course it was a disappointment.

ortazel
06-12-2017, 15:08
It would be nice to just have an "invisible pit" feature for tracks that are missing them even if SMS don't want to go to the trouble of adding them to these tracks. Just add the return to pits option in the menu and have the car spawn off to the side by the start line after a few seconds- it doesn't have to be a realistic pitting experience (and could be a checkbox option if people would rather have this turned off). Having this available would let you run practice and qualifying while people join your lobby like all other tracks allow.
The lack of pits and accompanying lack of informal multiplayer lobbies means that people aren't playing a big chunk of the game- Nordschleife, all the kart tracks, all the rallycross tracks (especially with a RX focused DLC coming out soon?)

V3nom
06-12-2017, 15:08
I think you are exaggerating a bit. That Monaco argument makes no sense using it in this context.
The devs are actually replicating the real world track, which does not have/use a pit.

Hammerpgh
06-12-2017, 15:10
IMO the combined is even better. It has that chill effect. After racing like a madman, your head almost explodes of concentration and with the combined you get that 1-2 minutes of time to cruise along before you go again on the green hell. :)

Therein is the problem... it's fine if you want that chill but not if you want to be racing what they raced back in the day. I like the intense concentration required of the 'real' circuit ;)

Hammerpgh
06-12-2017, 15:11
I think you are exaggerating a bit. That Monaco argument makes no sense using it in this context.
The devs are actually replicating the real world track, which does not have/use a pit.

Which cannot be used to race properly :/ How would you like to race Monaco without the ability to pit?

V3nom
06-12-2017, 15:14
Yeah I kind of get what you are saying. A invisible pit would solve all the problems and it should also be easier to implement then modeling everything.

Shnoo80
16-08-2018, 15:58
Anything changed in this topic for last 8 months?
I understand SMS that they made a decision about closing pits if there was big technical issues to solve.
I was worki g for few years in gaming industry and I've been in this kind of situations. There was something to fix, but all solutions that looked obvious and easy at first, turned out to be extremely hard to implement. Sometimes required even rewriting whole engine.
So in this kind of situations, there is CEO or VP or other high manager who says "Ok, I take decision not to fix it and I take all consequences. Fixing this would require 6+ months of development without any guarantee that other bugs would come out. Let's communicate it this way and we're done". Others had no other choice but accept it and move on (or leave the company if they want)
I am not sure if here is similar case, but looks highly probable.

satco1066
18-08-2018, 12:13
yeah. Thats the way rumors are made. Know nothing, assume and tell it to all, there can't be any other truth ;)

Konan
18-08-2018, 13:24
yeah. Thats the way rumors are made. Know nothing, assume and tell it to all, there can't be any other truth ;)

Ain't that the truth...:p

Shnoo80
18-08-2018, 13:47
I said it was only probable, not sure. There can be plenty of reasons...

Konan
18-08-2018, 13:56
I said it was only probable, not sure. There can be plenty of reasons...

Satco only pointed out the fallout your speculations might produce...no harm done really so don't take it personal :cool:
He knows how things can start to lead a life of their own pretty quick over here...lol

Shnoo80
18-08-2018, 15:19
But apart from the reason, is there a work in progress to open that pit again?

Invincible
18-08-2018, 21:22
But apart from the reason, is there a work in progress to open that pit again?

We haven't heard anything regarding this issue. So we're all as clueless as you are.