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View Full Version : This Doesn't Seem Right (soft vs hard tires) [It is right]



Mr.Smoke
25-09-2017, 00:06
While doing some testing/tuning on various tracks today I decided to experiment with both hard and soft tire compounds on the Ferarri 488 GT3.

For my example I will use times I was getting at Laguna Seca, since its my "go-to" track for testing. Only things changed in the car setup was tire compounds. Track temps around 40c if I remember right.

With hard tires on I was hitting consistant times of mid-low 1:24's and things felt really good. Plenty of grip offered by the tires.

With soft tires I couldn't manage to get a lower time than mid 1:26's and the car didn't feel right at all. Far less traction and perdictability in terms of control and handling.

I tried running 15+ laps with both sets of tires to give myself time to adjust to the differences, but alas it was in vain. I simply could not push the car as hard on soft tires.

To me, this seems totally backwards from how things should be. The soft, sticky tires should grip much better in that kind of heat. Has anyone else played around with this and noticed similar results?

The only track where I noticed improvements in lap times and grip levels on soft tires was at Road America. Track temps were about 30c during my laps there.

blinkngone
25-09-2017, 00:10
Hey Mr.Smoke, this has been my experience as well. Maybe the soft tires were intended for a damp track? In the prototypes you can use the softs, just not GT3.

ironik
25-09-2017, 00:10
The softs are not meant to be faster.
They're meant to be used when the track temp is low, as in real life nowadays.
So, with a hot track, it's normal that they're not as performant as the hards.

You can check the pirelli website,you'll have the info
Edit : can't find the link, will check that later.

Mahjik
25-09-2017, 00:33
The softs are not meant to be faster.


This is correct. Tire compound is based on temperature. Yes, many years ago soft tires meant faster but those days are gone. Harder compound no longer means slower. It's all based on the operating temperature you can maintain in the tires.

Mr.Smoke
25-09-2017, 00:43
The softs are not meant to be faster.


This is correct. Tire compound is based on temperature.

Thanks for the very prompt replies! I thought it to be one of two possibilities. Either a bug, or intended. Glad to know its operating as it should. Just didn't seem correct since in pCARS1 my lap times would be faster with soft tires.

Thanks again!

Trippul G
25-09-2017, 00:52
This is correct. Tire compound is based on temperature. Yes, many years ago soft tires meant faster but those days are gone. Harder compound no longer means slower. It's all based on the operating temperature you can maintain in the tires.

While this is true for most forms of modern racing, it generally tends to not be true of Formula 1, where softer still equals faster. I haven't tried any of the formula cars in PCARS2 yet, but do their tire compounds' behaviors reflect this?

Mahjik
25-09-2017, 01:58
While this is true for most forms of modern racing, it generally tends to not be true of Formula 1, where softer still equals faster. I haven't tried any of the formula cars in PCARS2 yet, but do their tire compounds' behaviors reflect this?

That's not entirely true. We have seen even this year where harder compounds were definitely faster than some of the softer ones (using F1 terms since each track what's harder or softer differs names). This was during the races where the temperature were much higher.

BTW, my post above was mostly plagiarized from one of the professional drivers in WMD2. If you don't believe me (even though I race myself), believe him since it's his livelihood. ;)

ELAhrairah
25-09-2017, 02:55
So how come that during almost every dry qualification the Q3 pole position laptimes were made on the softest compound (ss us s)?

Ian Bell
25-09-2017, 03:11
So how come that during almost every dry qualification the Q3 pole position laptimes were made on the softest compound (ss us s)?

He said it's not 'entirely true' as there are exceptions in F1. But F1 tyres are an extremely contrived thing these days. They are constructed to get slightly slower each lap with a cliff at lap x. All engineered in. As such they are a rarity.

Trippul G
25-09-2017, 03:23
He said it's not 'entirely true' as there are exceptions in F1. But F1 tyres are an extremely contrived thing these days. They are constructed to get slightly slower each lap with a cliff at lap x. All engineered in. As such they are a rarity.

I understand that. I'm just curious if that behavior is reflected in the behavior of the compounds we have in game for series such as Formula A or Formula X, or if they follow the general pattern of "harder compounds for higher temperatures" that seems to be the mantra for pretty much everything else.

Ian Bell
25-09-2017, 03:27
I understand that. I'm just curious if that behavior is reflected in the behavior of the compounds we have in game for series such as Formula A or Formula X, or if they follow the general pattern of "harder compounds for higher temperatures" that seems to be the mantra for pretty much everything else.

It's a good question and I don't know the answer off hand. I know they use a specific compound though.

ELAhrairah
25-09-2017, 03:55
He said it's not 'entirely true' as there are exceptions in F1. But F1 tyres are an extremely contrived thing these days. They are constructed to get slightly slower each lap with a cliff at lap x. All engineered in. As such they are a rarity.

Ok that I agree with, that during a race the dynamics of the track can work either way with the cliff and degredation etc. Good example is the gp of Sotsji this year where during the race for some teams the medium compound was actually faster than the soft. But I still believe that for Pcars2 it wouldn't make sense to drive your fast one quali lap on a medium compound. At least not for the open wheelers. But I don't want to nitpick this game and to be honest, I've been driving Le Mans classic prototypes all weekend which I find awesome. Big compliments to the audio guys at SMS.

DECATUR PLAYA
25-09-2017, 04:01
So how good is the Automatic by Weather option now. Just wondering does it make things easier or do the tire compounds just take some tinkering based on car.

honespc
25-09-2017, 06:33
Soft compounds are still the preferred choice for quick qualy laps in pc2 too, before they run hot enough to not offer the optimum grip level after the third lap under sunny conditions and hot tarmac. It's the usual pc1 exploit for qualys. Just close all brake vents and radiators; lower fuel load to the minimum; and try to fly over the track by the last third lap. Artificial times are artificial. That's why you usually see some folks on the lead of the qualy list scoring by around 4 seconds faster than everybody else. This still works in pc2.
______________________________________________________________________

That said. What is considered a low tarmac temperature in pc2 so we go softs?, and high enough not to opt for them and go hard compound?. All intended for race of course, not qualy

ironik
25-09-2017, 09:50
Soft compounds are still the preferred choice for quick qualy laps in pc2 too, before they run hot enough to not offer the optimum grip level after the third lap under sunny conditions and hot tarmac. It's the usual pc1 exploit for qualys. Just close all brake vents and radiators; lower fuel load to the minimum; and try to fly over the track by the last third lap. Artificial times are artificial. That's why you usually see some folks on the lead of the qualy list scoring by around 4 seconds faster than everybody else. This still works in pc2.
______________________________________________________________________

That said. What is considered a low tarmac temperature in pc2 so we go softs?, and high enough not to opt for them and go hard compound?. All intended for race of course, not qualy


Yeah softs are usually (depending of the track temp) a bit faster in qualy as they're heating up quickly and has a bit more grip than hards (when in optimal temperature range)
I don't remember exactly where is the threshold though but it should reflect real life.
We don't have an exact track temp where the softs are better than hards though. It also depends of your driving style and your setup.

It's the same for the brakes. They're better when in optimal temperature range by the way.

Regarding your artificial comment ... Well, yeah you're partially right. The main problem is that damages are not carried over the next session so you can abuse the car more BUT, Racers tend to do the same IRL.

Machinist90
25-09-2017, 09:57
This is correct. Tire compound is based on temperature. Yes, many years ago soft tires meant faster but those days are gone. Harder compound no longer means slower. It's all based on the operating temperature you can maintain in the tires.

so this feature was also present in the first pcars?

ironik
25-09-2017, 09:57
so this feature was also present in the first pcars?

Nope :)

Bealdor
25-09-2017, 10:03
That said. What is considered a low tarmac temperature in pc2 so we go softs?, and high enough not to opt for them and go hard compound?. All intended for race of course, not qualy

Use 15-20C ambient temp as a guideline. If it's lower use softs, if it's higher use hard tyres.
Again, that's a guideline, not an absolute rule.

Leper Messiah
25-09-2017, 10:36
The softs are not meant to be faster.
They're meant to be used when the track temp is low, as in real life nowadays.
So, with a hot track, it's normal that they're not as performant as the hards.

You can check the pirelli website,you'll have the info
Edit : can't find the link, will check that later.

This is really interesting and cool to know!

honespc
25-09-2017, 12:40
Use 15-20C ambient temp as a guideline. If it's lower use softs, if it's higher use hard tyres.
Again, that's a guideline, not an absolute rule.Yeah you have to have into consideration the weather forecast and all that too, but what about the very tarmac temperature, the other indicator next to the ambient one?, it's the other factor to consider too. What is an already high enough tarmac temp to opt for hard compound in pc2, and a low enough to prefer softs for long stints?

AbeWoz
25-09-2017, 12:46
240519

honespc
25-09-2017, 12:56
For all those experiencing understeer in some gt3 cars, such as the Bentlyey 2015.

Not only you better euqal rear pressure with fronts. I have found out that the front car suspension is at the bottom, and it always hit the limit after negotiating a corner, giving you horrible mid/exit corner understeer.

With these few GT3 cars that suffer from this, I had quite alleviatedthis by raising the front High by 5 or 6 clicks to the very least, and then down the rear just a little, at least again on the Bentley.

Rear downforce also has a drastic drag effect that can cause you to understeer gloriously in low to mid speed corners. Going low on rear downforce on the Bentley has also helped reducing the LeLz understeer a lot, as well as increasing the rear springs and roll bars (just the opposite thing to do in PC1 with the Bentley lol).

This game physics feel great, pretty realistic if you ask me even in the know I know nothing about real gt3 physics. They just feel like..., right?, well done?, whatever

What I find weird in this game, although I guess it's been done for balancing reasons, is the gearbox ratios. They are all at its lowest, and still felll..., I don't know, but if you want your car to have more straight line speed you must reduce rear downforce in pc2 MANDATORY. This is no longer pc1.

Zenzic
25-09-2017, 12:59
More details about tire temps here (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?51682-Realistic-lap-times&p=1362383&viewfull=1#post1362383).

AbeWoz
25-09-2017, 13:08
For all those experiencing understeer in some gt3 cars, such as the Bentlyey 2015.

Not only you better euqal rear pressure with fronts. I have found out that the front car suspension is at the bottom, and it always hit the limit after negotiating a corner, giving you horrible mid/exit corner understeer.

With these few GT3 cars that suffer from this, I had quite alleviatedthis by raising the front High by 5 or 6 clicks to the very least, and then down the rear just a little, at least again on the Bentley.

Rear downforce also has a drastic drag effect that can cause you to understeer gloriously in low to mid speed corners. Going low on rear downforce on the Bentley has also helped reducing the LeLz understeer a lot, as well as increasing the rear springs and roll bars (just the opposite thing to do in PC1 with the Bentley lol).

This game physics feel great, pretty realistic if you ask me even in the know I know nothing about real gt3 physics. They just feel like..., right?, well done?, whatever

What I find weird in this game, although I guess it's been done for balancing reasons, is the gearbox ratios. They are all at its lowest, and still felll..., I don't know, but if you want your car to have more straight line speed you must reduce rear downforce in pc2 MANDATORY. This is no longer pc1.

Remember that GT3 gear ratios are homologated so there aren't as many adjustment options as some people seem to realize. So certain cars might not even use 6th gear on some tracks. Watch some of the onboards from the 12h of Sebring this year. The AMG was only using 5th gear on the long back stretch.

honespc
25-09-2017, 13:15
Remember that GT3 gear ratios are homologated so there aren't as many adjustment options as some people seem to realize. So certain cars might not even use 6th gear on some tracks. Watch some of the onboards from the 12h of Sebring this year. The AMG was only using 5th gear on the long back stretch.Yeah yeah even the gearbox ratios seem so true to the real thing and well done. I meant I was just soo used to PC1 roflmao gear ratio freedom for some categories such as GT3, and I'm so happy to see the real thing applied even on this area as well. It's great to see tune setup exploits practically gone as well in this category, at least in what concerns to long sessions with many laps.

I see some people in other places claiming that GT3 in pc2 are not good, but omg it's the complete opposite situation.., they are, imo, quite true to the real thing in all aspects now. It was in pc1 where GT3 class was an absolute exploitable embarrassment tune setups wise. Now it's a lot more balanced imho, and they behave more naturally, and not just thanks to the new tyre behaviour. Tyre pressures, car height and suspensions, as well as rear downforce finally have a drastic impact now!, it's so great.

Seriously sms. Please do not touch physics through patching. Only that

N0body Of The Goat
25-09-2017, 13:28
So how come that during almost every dry qualification the Q3 pole position laptimes were made on the softest compound (ss us s)?

IIRC, the current F1 rules dictate that the Q3 pole shootout must be run with the softest slick compound available at the race weekend, if it is dry.

Trippul G
25-09-2017, 13:52
^Even so, the vast majority of the time, teams are electing to run that same softest-available compound in Q2 so that they can make it through to Q3 for the shootout.

JDFSSS
25-09-2017, 14:15
So how come that during almost every dry qualification the Q3 pole position laptimes were made on the softest compound (ss us s)?

We have to remember that in F1 the available tire compounds are restricted, so this isn't a direct comparison. Pirelli selects 3 dry tire compounds that will be relevant to the track and conditions. On tracks/conditions where Pirelli selects harder compounds, I'm not sure if teams would always go for the ultra soft in Q3 if they were given the choice.

N0body Of The Goat
25-09-2017, 14:43
^Even so, the vast majority of the time, teams are electing to run that same softest-available compound in Q2 so that they can make it through to Q3 for the shootout.

Don't forget that F1 teams have a limited number of fresh slick tyres at a race meeting, to use over P1; P2; P3; Q1; Q2; Q3; race (where they must comply with the rule about using two different slick compounds in the race, if it is dry, IIRC Q3 qualifiers have to start the race on the set of tyres they set their fastest Q2 lap on).

If it is unusually hot at a venue, teams may elect to use the softer tyres in Q1 and Q2 providing they still qualify for Q3, saving more of the harder compounds for the race.

Mahjik
25-09-2017, 15:48
so this feature was also present in the first pcars?

Yes. The compounds are for the most part, temperature dependent. Just as in real life, you want to run the softest compound which the weather allows. If the temperature allows to run a soft tire, you run a soft tire. If the temperature dictates a hard tire, you use a hard tire.. In short, the soft should last just about as long as the hard tire given both tires are running within their optimal temperature range.

David Semperger
25-09-2017, 16:42
This major shift in how the compounds are designed will take us quite a bit of time to get used to I think, it tricked me as well initially. I do have a question though. While it is certainly true, that softer compounds will warm faster and easier, but that is only true I believe if the track is grippy enough or they are worked hard enough, otherwise they won't reach their higher working temperature and can be the worse choice. Considering this, if it is true for PC2, would it be better to use soft or hard tires in the rain, or on wet tarmac for example? Based on what I know and what I've read here, I would think hard tires would be more ideal.

ELAhrairah
25-09-2017, 17:12
We have to remember that in F1 the available tire compounds are restricted, so this isn't a direct comparison. Pirelli selects 3 dry tire compounds that will be relevant to the track and conditions. On tracks/conditions where Pirelli selects harder compounds, I'm not sure if teams would always go for the ultra soft in Q3 if they were given the choice.

Pirelli always brings at least one harder(can also be the medium tire) and two softer compounds. In dry conditions teams go for the softest tire of the weekend (could be any of the softer compounds but lately this has been the US) in Q3. With exception of extreme weather conditions. Which is kind of logical: over one lap in normal track conditions (not very cold and not very hot) the softer compound will always work better over 1 lap in which you are allowed to destroy the tire for one ultimum pole lap time.

Leper Messiah
25-09-2017, 17:17
As an oldy (46) I'm struggling a bit to get my head around this LOL!! To me softer = more grip less longevity..... harder = less grip more longevity...so it's ALL about track temp now?

ironik
25-09-2017, 21:12
Considering this, if it is true for PC2, would it be better to use soft or hard tires in the rain, or on wet tarmac for example? Based on what I know and what I've read here, I would think hard tires would be more ideal.


As an oldy (46) I'm struggling a bit to get my head around this LOL!! To me softer = more grip less longevity..... harder = less grip more longevity...so it's ALL about track temp now?

In fact, the main factor to keep in mind is the optimal temperature range of the Tyre.
You can use this table as a basic guideline, it's from pirelli.
http://www.pirelli.com/mediaObject/pirellityre/ww/en/catalogue/motorsport/categories/circuit/advice_circuit_table/original/advice_circuit_table.png

David Semperger
25-09-2017, 23:20
Is the difference between tarmac surfaces around the various race tracks modeled in PC2?

Mahjik
25-09-2017, 23:22
Is the difference between tarmac surfaces around the various race tracks modeled in PC2?

Nope.. I do think they may have a done a slight difference on the street based circuits, but all normal circuits are the same from that point of view.

David Semperger
25-09-2017, 23:26
Nope.. I do think they may have a done a slight difference on the street based circuits, but all normal circuits are the same from that point of view.

Got it, thanks. I wanted to know how much research I would need to do before I started taking Time Trials seriously. :)

Trippul G
26-09-2017, 00:40
Nope.. I do think they may have a done a slight difference on the street based circuits, but all normal circuits are the same from that point of view.

WELL THAT'S JUST RUBBISH, AND THEY CALL THIS A SIMULATION???!!1 (blah blah blah rage rage rage) ;):p

(seriously, if you had answered yes, I think my head would have exploded in awe...lol)

Jussi Karjalainen
26-09-2017, 01:00
WELL THAT'S JUST RUBBISH, AND THEY CALL THIS A SIMULATION???!!1 (blah blah blah rage rage rage) ;):p

(seriously, if you had answered yes, I think my head would have exploded in awe...lol)Well there's SOME of that, but seriously, all tracks in the world are in a constant flux of wearing down at different rates in different parts of the track and being resurfaced and repainted and dirtied and cleaned, and, and, and... Suffice to say that it'd be a pretty overwhelming undertaking to take this all into account, with immense work needing to be done on location at each and every circuit to measure things out. And then a month later it'd be out of date again... =)

We did take the surface color into account somewhat with the track temperature variance though...

riverreveal
26-09-2017, 01:13
In fact, the main factor to keep in mind is the optimal temperature range of the Tyre.
You can use this table as a basic guideline, it's from pirelli.
http://www.pirelli.com/mediaObject/pirellityre/ww/en/catalogue/motorsport/categories/circuit/advice_circuit_table/original/advice_circuit_table.png

I usually let the sim decide my tires. Is it picking correctly already? Or do I need to grab a copy of that table and go manual?

Jussi Karjalainen
26-09-2017, 01:20
I usually let the sim decide my tires. Is it picking correctly already? Or do I need to grab a copy of that table and go manual?You automatically get dry, wet, dirt or snow tyres, but unfortunately not soft or hard tyres.

This is simply because which one is the best will be totally dependent on the track, the weather, the car and the driver. I tend to be quite easy on tyres, so I can run soft tyres to good results more often than my more heavy handed friend. Hockenheim GP stresses tyres quite little, so you can often use soft tyres up to higher ambient/track temperatures than you could on other tracks. There are many factors that play into it, and trying to develop an algorithm that could pick the correct tyre straight up for all cars on all tracks in all conditions is bordering on impossible.

So in the dry we default to a single tyre. Most commonly this is the harder compound, since racing is often done in quite good, warm conditions, and they handle overheating better than softs, and for example almost all GT3 series only ever use the hard compound unless the race is held in very extreme conditions. If the tyres we default to turn out to be the wrong tyre for the majority of races encountered by people (so how all of you guys play the game will play into that, we can't know for 100% certain what you guys will get up to with the game) we can change what the dry default tyres for a given car/class are based on feedback in future updates.

The softs also wear out quicker, so in some cases even if you might be a wee bit quicker on them, maybe having to change them more often would slow you down too much? We can't know.

If you default to hard tyres (you can check in the telemetry HUD) and feel like you can't get them up to proper operating temperature (for most cars this starts at around 80C, best in the 90C range, starts falling off beyond 100C) you might want to try and see if you can get better performance out of softs. Their operating peak is at lower temps than on hards, so you need for them to run cool enough to work. This can also make them great for qualifying, since you don't need to warm them up as much to get usable performance out of them.

EDIT: The exception to the above are the road tyres, where it's VERY clear which ones are the quickest in the dry. There you always get the grippiest tyres available for that particular car, for the majority that will be Trofeo R/NT01 level tyre. They're just vastly more grippy and handle racing conditions (overheating etc.) way better than the lower grade tyres.

That was actually a slight issue when trying to figure out what wet tyres you'd default to on the road cars. For racing cars the wets tend to be very soft rubber that's grippy but overheats easily unless there's water, whereas the best water handling tyres for road cars are the hardest, least grippy ones. So when the track is saturated but there's no standing water, some of the softer tyres might still be quicker, but the hardest tyres are definitely the best at dealing with big puddles. It was definitely interesting to work on those aspects.

David Semperger
26-09-2017, 02:50
Well there's SOME of that, but seriously, all tracks in the world are in a constant flux of wearing down at different rates in different parts of the track and being resurfaced and repainted and dirtied and cleaned, and, and, and... Suffice to say that it'd be a pretty overwhelming undertaking to take this all into account, with immense work needing to be done on location at each and every circuit to measure things out. And then a month later it'd be out of date again... =)

We did take the surface color into account somewhat with the track temperature variance though...

Pff, excuses. :D

BTW Jussi, I'm really happy to see you became part of SMS. I learned a lot from you in the WMD1 days. Your suspension calculator was a damn good resource to have. What do you reckon, would it still work well for PC2? :)


I usually let the sim decide my tires. Is it picking correctly already? Or do I need to grab a copy of that table and go manual?

Based on what I've seen so far, it does pick correctly, according to these temps. Keep in mind two things though. First, personal preference (or more accurately driving style) absolutely plays a role here. Second, these are the optimal choices for longer stints, so if you want to do 1 or 2 quick laps you should probably still choose softer compounds, since they will be pre-warmed for optimal temps and the effect of that can last a short while.

EDIT: Based on Jussi's post above, it looks like I haven't done enough testing yet. :)

peterCars
26-09-2017, 02:55
this might be a silly question but in the car , racing, how do I know what tyres I have on? I play FA mostly.
(also bug report - the tyres that the pit crew have ready to put on are not necessarily the ones that they put on as far as appearances go.)

David Semperger
26-09-2017, 02:59
this might be a silly question but in the car , racing, how do I know what tyres I have on? I play FA mostly.

You can always check them on the telemetry HUD.

TexasTyme214
26-09-2017, 03:21
Out of curiosity, will we see see the medium and Intermediate tires in the game. I have yet to see them in game, but I recall hearing about the strategy call between wets and intermediates.

peterCars
26-09-2017, 03:25
You can always check them on the telemetry HUD.

thanks, how does it show there? text as in "hard, soft" or colour coded? I cant see it on the tyre wear, or temps HUD part.

Mahjik
26-09-2017, 03:33
thanks, how does it show there? text as in "hard, soft" or colour coded? I cant see it on the tyre wear, or temps HUD part.

You need to switch to the Full Telemetry HUD (which has the dynamic tire widgets that cover most of the screen).

Jussi Karjalainen
26-09-2017, 03:38
Your suspension calculator was a damn good resource to have. What do you reckon, would it still work well for PC2? :)Not really, our damper modeling improved significantly and avoids some issues we had in pCARS 1 (not that we had major issues, but every little bit helps), some cars have adjustable 3rd springs and dampers which weren't adjustable (in fact were hidden from view) in pCARS 1, and the slow-fast transition is force based rather than velocity based now. You won't get the correct results with that calculator.

Which is why I made a new one, which I'll release later this week. =)

Trippul G
26-09-2017, 22:25
thanks, how does it show there? text as in "hard, soft" or colour coded? I cant see it on the tyre wear, or temps HUD part.

If I understand your question, you need to cycle your HUD by pressing I believe it's left on the d-pad by default. This will show your active telemetry (ride height, temperatures, etc. as well as your tire compound that's currently fitted).

peterCars
27-09-2017, 02:55
You need to switch to the Full Telemetry HUD (which has the dynamic tire widgets that cover most of the screen).

got it last night , it is text for each tyre. (my eyes are blind I cannot see / Monty Python).