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ELAhrairah
26-09-2017, 14:36
I was wondering what the average opinion is here about Pcars2 being a real (semi-pro consumer) Sim or more of a Simcade or somewhere in between?
I've seen some discussions online where people believe AC and Iracing have more Sim elements than Pcars2.
I must say I haven't played both (Iracing very briefly but I didn't like the ffb) but I was curious for your opinions on how they or any other racing game compare to Pcars2 from Sim perspective.

m00lean
26-09-2017, 14:41
Yeah. It's the usual chatter about sims. People brag about being good in a "sim" that has the least amount of traction possible and for them everything else is "simcade". I believe most of those ranters on youtube and in other forums did never drive a real car.

Only thing I can say is that my BMW feels almost exactly the same when losing traction as the one ingame. For me it's a sim.

Sankyo
26-09-2017, 14:42
Since this is usually a topic that brings up a lot of emotion and discussion, please keep it civil.

As a first, I would recommend to start with defining "sim" ;)

Angst1974
26-09-2017, 14:44
It's certainly intended to be a sim . Any "simcade" discussion will certainly be be fiercely challenged .


I will say, coming from the world of flight sims as they have evolved in the past 30 years+ years I have played them . That the engine, vehicle dynamics, physics and tire modeling are simulated rather well . The in car systems are very simplified . (i.e. dynamic drive modes in modern high performance cars are not modeled , no variable (only 2 speeds) speed wipers, etc..)

Mr.Smoke
26-09-2017, 14:44
Professional racing has to deal with weather elements. AC has no dynamic weather or rain. Sure, the rest of it is pretty well done, but it just doesnt compare to the overall experience that pCARS2 delivers.

I consider this game to be a sim. Even more so than some of these other sims (AC or Iracing) that get hailed as the best of the best.

None of the other racing games on my PC will be getting any play time now.

Invincible
26-09-2017, 14:45
To quote Ian: Simcade my a$$ :p

ELAhrairah
26-09-2017, 14:48
Since this is usually a topic that brings up a lot of emotion and discussion, please keep it civil.

As a first, I would recommend to start with defining "sim" ;)

That's actually the first thing that went through my mind.

Angst1974
26-09-2017, 14:50
Since this is usually a topic that brings up a lot of emotion and discussion, please keep it civil.



My first instinct was to think this was a troll post , but I gave the OP the benefit of doubt. I'm just a cynical old man at this point :)

Tbolt
26-09-2017, 14:52
Does it really matter? Why does it have to have a label? Some people like to categorize things so they can brag about that, to me it's just doesn't matter. Most of these games have some things in them that people class as arcade but that's to make them more playable and fun, doesn't make them worse sims.

DreamsKnight
26-09-2017, 15:00
it is a sim, but console oriented.

so he has a good realistic physics (tyre edge is something superlative), but lack of some features a sim should have (and the other sim have) cause -my opinion- they can't or don't wnat spend time to implement it on consoles.

breyzipp
26-09-2017, 15:02
For sure a sim for me but the reason behind it goes a lot further than just the handling. All of the following contributes to the sim feeling IMO :

- handling (that includes everything from drivetrain model and tyre model).
- livetrack 3.0 / seasons / 24h day night cycle / dynamic weather / correct position of sun and shades / ...
- realistic assists, aids, and such for cars. This includes ESP, ABS, TCS, transmission, handbrake, ... (e.g. an LMP2 has no handbrake)
- racing driver career feels realistic and believable
- correct car classes (e.g. GT3 and GTE are separate classes)
- overal atmosphere / immersion from sound and graphics
- realistic tuning / race engineer
- race weekends (practice, qualifying, race, formation and cooldown laps, manual pit stops and animated pit crew, realistic penalty system, ...)
- ....

If the handling alone doesn’t convince you it’s a sim (it sure does for me already) then at least the total package should.

Sankyo
26-09-2017, 15:03
Does it really matter? Why does it have to have a label? Some people like to categorize things so they can brag about that, to me it's just doesn't matter. Most of these games have some things in them that people class as arcade but that's to make them more playable and fun, doesn't make them worse sims.
Well you can look at it from the perspective of a valid question: will this game make me feel/experience how it is to drive a real (race) car at and over the limit? Does it simulate the relevant aspects well enough? If you're looking for a game that does that, it can be useful to have that label on it.


The problem, however, is that the label needs to be defined properly, and it differs from person to person what "simulating properly" consists of :)

indent
26-09-2017, 15:03
I love to drive in pCars 2 - whatever others call it ...
(I've driven a lot in AC and Raceroom)

DozUK
26-09-2017, 15:05
It's $hit hot and I love playing it. That's all that matters to me.

I have A.C. too and feel lucky to have two great games that I can play on my console

Janneman60
26-09-2017, 15:08
As long as I can't feel the action with my ass it is not a SIM. So for me it is simcade, which is good enough.

Lplate
26-09-2017, 15:17
It is a sim the appeals to the Simcade audience as well is as sim races.

whip
26-09-2017, 15:19
its a video game like all the others

ppl that go on about sim this and sim that and call themselves sim racers are simply too ashamed to admit they play video games

BigDad
26-09-2017, 15:19
PC 2 is definitely a Sim ...
Simulates driving a car ...
Simulates racing a car ...
Simulates setting a car up for racing ...
Simulates weather ...
Visually simulates real life .
People say rF2 is the most accurate Sim on the market but for me a Sim needs to firstly look like what i see when i look out my front screen then feel what it feels like to turn a wheel , if it can't fool me visually then it doesnt really matter how good it drives if on every corner im reminded that i'm playing a game .
I've got more time in rF2 (500 hrs) , AC (300 hrs) , AMS (200 hrs) , R3E (100 hrs) , IRacing (1 Month) and pCars 1 on PS4 (400 hrs) and can honestly say that PC2 is 100% my new goto Sim . It has FFB and Physics that are IMO as good as rF2 and AC but also has the ability to fool me into believing that i'm racing a FFX around Long Beach .
100% worth the entry fee and makes my hundreds of $ spent on other Sims feel waisted .

Tbolt
26-09-2017, 15:21
Well you can look at it from the perspective of a valid question: will this game make me feel/experience how it is to drive a real (race) car at and over the limit? Does it simulate the relevant aspects well enough? If you're looking for a game that does that, it can be useful to have that label on it.


The problem, however, is that the label needs to be defined properly, and it differs from person to person what "simulating properly" consists of :)

But saying something isn't a sim when it's simulating something is pointless! There's good sims and bad sims. Pro flight sims and car sims produced 20 years ago people called proper sims, but today we would just laugh at them.

BigDad
26-09-2017, 15:21
its a video game like all the others

ppl that go on about sim this and sim that and call themselves sim racers are simply too ashamed to admit they play video games

lol , I have a Gaming PC ! what else am i going to use it for?

ECAR_Tracks
26-09-2017, 15:22
I've been saying that over and over for years: racing is dynamic. In real life, it doesn't matter you race every day in the very same race track. From one day to another the track is different. More than that, from one hour to the next, the track changed.

Track usage, time of day, tarmac temps, dirty on road gathered by some car, weather, and some variables out of our control, no matter how many times you raced at that specific track, it will never be the same. Even the very track geometry changes due the car tyres charge, some cement parts breaks, some portions sink centimeters.

These are the 1.0.1. to consider a software as a "sim", "simcade" or "pure arcade" in my humble opinion. If you don't have time lapse and weather and track state progression, it's impossible to see the software as a sim. This cut out iRacing and Assetto Corsa from my list. They're static. Racing can be everything less static.

rFactor 2 and now Project Car 2 passed through this razor. Of course is not the dynamic track, weather and time of day that matters altogheter, but for me a static track, time and weather is a realism destroyer.

Daynja
26-09-2017, 15:23
Time has passed and the older engines which are still used today did their job and it was good. Coding capability and CPU/GPU power have increased since the early days of ISI motor based games/ Brush systems and SMS are embracing the future with more advanced and accurate car dynamics.

Older or more stubborn racers have gotten so used to systems that did its best to replicate trye dynamics but couldn't replicate it totally, that they truly believe that if its sliding (unrealistically) then its "hardcore" and worthy of the Sim label, but that in itself is utterly ridiculous.

A simulation is not just about certain dynamics like tyre or suspension behavior. Its how much its simulating its real life counter part. If the word simulation were being used properly Codemasters would be considered the Formula 1 Simulation Masters, because that is what their games are doing. Simulating the career and driving of a Formula 1 driver. The levels of accuracy Codemasters F1 titles, or any other racing game, have is what really should be discussed, not its "sim" level.


At the end of the day there is no ladder, or hierarchy of "bro-ness" depending on the race game you play. If you're into Forza then good for you, if you adore AC more power to ya, so on and so on.

The Important part here is what you have the most fun with. AC, rFactor 2 (which I have both of) bores me to tears but I totally appreciate why people love those two games, and I choose not to play them anymore. Automobilista fascinates me and my race club still race it for our F1 Ultimate league, and now pCars 2 is here and I'm loving the attention to visual detail, sound effects (reverb, positioning) and the tyres wobbling on their rims bouncing around Oulton Park in a Porsche is a joy to behold and is a tonne of fun. That's all that ever matters.

BigDad
26-09-2017, 15:24
As long as I can't feel the action with my ass.
Ummm.. Okay !

SharpEyez
26-09-2017, 15:27
I suggest closing this topic, this question is irreverent since each individual experiences it in another way.

"Some times this community feels like its being run by kids to young to own computers and race equipment." used this phrase on YouTube channel where people burned each other for their opinions about sim/no sim.

Francisnf
26-09-2017, 15:32
This topic is so tiresome. Its clearly a sim, why people keep bringing this stupid topic up amazes me.

Zenzic
26-09-2017, 15:43
It's obviously not a sim game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sim_video_games)...








;)

Djuvinile
26-09-2017, 15:49
Its a sim.. it simulates racing in every way you want.. end of story.

PeteUplink
26-09-2017, 15:51
PCars2's physics seem fine to me... I don't really fuss that much about realistic handling anymore. I don't really care since I past 40, so long as the game is fun. And PCars2 is fun with a few tiny annoyances.

Roger Prynne
26-09-2017, 15:52
If you knew how much technical/real world stuff went into this 'Game' you would definitely call it a 'Sim'
Call it what you like though as long as you have fun with it.

Wayne Kerr
26-09-2017, 15:55
who cares.

just like in real life, the driver's job is to extract every ounce of grip and to get the fastest lap time. Michelins don't react the same way at the limit like Dunlops or Pirellis or Yokes; why would all the games model the tires the same way at the limit?

Harmoniser
26-09-2017, 16:04
I think problem with this debate is that people conflate difficulty with simulation.

I remember Grand Prix Legends, which is amazing, was seen as hardcore sim. Sir Jackie Stewart himself claimed that the 1967 Formula One entries featured in Grand Prix Legends were somehow more difficult to drive on a computer screen than their real life counterparts. I trust the opinion of drivers, and Pcars had some top racing talent involved in this game.

Plato99
26-09-2017, 16:07
Who cares? Just enjoy it. Stop trying to demean things by pigeon-holing them. Only PRC readers care about Simcade / Schmimcade.

GrimeyDog
26-09-2017, 16:10
As long as I can't feel the action with my ass it is not a SIM. So for me it is simcade, which is good enough.

You Need Buttkickers... I use 2 --> 1 plays left the other 1 right
it takes the immersion to the Next Level...

2x Buttkickers + VR + Astro A40 Head set to drown out the world and I really Feel like im in the car!!! Sooo Much so that when using VR i find Myself feeling Boxed in and Readjusting My Real Life Rig Seating position if the car has a Small Cockpit... When i race on TV i dont feel the Need to change My seating position--> Pcars2 is definitly a Sim Racing Experience.

Edit: In VR you can Even adjust All the Mirror angles!!! Thats a Great touch!!!

Robhd
26-09-2017, 16:12
This old chestnut just comes whirling around but here goes nothing..

IMHO their really is no such thing as a 'sim' as it is irrelevant because clearly it is, by definition a game, designed to entertain.
A full on simulator as F1 teams use has to fulfill no such function... It simply exists to test the parameters of the vehicle, design, set up and synergy...
The game is therefore is always a compromise, but is a game...
I think a lot of people get very hot under the collar because 'the game' feeds an internal fantasy world, anything that is counter to what they want to be their reality is a threat to their id and they defend/ attack that notion because it pricks the fantasy...
It is actually delusional behaviour but a harmless one, one which advertisers are happy to play on to move product... Just saying!

ECT CHEF
26-09-2017, 16:22
Since this is usually a topic that brings up a lot of emotion and discussion, please keep it civil.

As a first, I would recommend to start with defining "sim" ;)

This game is not a sim!! A sim is a virtualized human or species..... Oh wait wrong thread. OHHHH you meant simulation, then I would agree that this game could be added to the simulation list. Still have some arcadey features but all race games do.


I suggest closing this topic, this question is irreverent since each individual experiences it in another way.

"Some times this community feels like its being run by kids to young to own computers and race equipment." used this phrase on YouTube channel where people burned each other for their opinions about sim/no sim.

You should check out the forza website regarding the fine print sentence lol.

GrimeyDog
26-09-2017, 16:23
If you knew how much technical/real world stuff went into this 'Game' you would definitely call it a 'Sim'
Call it what you like though as long as you have fun with it.

Very True ---> for those that havent Yet take a Real Good Look at the options in Engine and Differential Tuning.... There is a Engine Brake setting and Multiple types of Differentials with settings that all exist in the Real world and they work as intended --> at least from My testing so far.

Angst1974
26-09-2017, 16:40
To quote Ian: Simcade my a$$ :p

Pretty much end of thread right there. If it was intended by the developer to be a sim , then it's a sim . Really the quality at which it "simulates" is the question .

A poor sim is a poor sim , not "simcade"

GrimeyDog
26-09-2017, 16:48
Pretty much end of thread right there. If it was intended by the developer to be a sim , then it's a sim . Really the quality at which it "simulates" is the question .

A poor sim is a poor sim , not "simcade"

While i can agree with your general statement i dont think the thread should be closed unless it turns Hostile... Its very interesting reading peoples POV and there may be Valid suggestions made to improve the SIM experience.

sbtm
26-09-2017, 16:56
is this a serious discussion? How come somebody even gets the idea to connect the term simcade with something like pcars2?

PeteUplink
26-09-2017, 17:00
The thing is, as I mentioned back when PCars1 was released, most of the sim racers who buy things like rFactor, PCars, etc, have never actually driven on a real circuit in a real racing car. So they have absolutely no idea of how it feels to drive at speed on a circuit, aside from the experiences they've had in what, in their opinion, makes a good simulation.

Angst1974
26-09-2017, 17:01
While i can agree with your general statement i dont think the thread should be closed unless it turns Hostile... Its very interesting reading peoples POV and there may be Valid suggestions made to improve the SIM experience.

My point being , we are not talking sim vs simcade , we are talking about the quality of the simulation experience in reality .


I've played some absolutely awesome simcade games (Jane's ATF) even if I am really into an acurate realistic simulation experience ( DCS a-10 ) as well.

I have a feeling people are using the word 'simcade' as an insult.

MABlosfeld
26-09-2017, 17:23
project cars is a game that tries to simulate various things in real life, and is doing a great job. Setting up the game with or without aids does not change its main feature which is a racing simulator but sets the difficulty level of the game. At this point I can make a comparison regarding the level of difficulty:
a) Easy = Arcade
b) Difficult = simulator
c) Something between A and B = simcade

pedrochapps
26-09-2017, 17:25
This "Simcade" word just makes me Sick. You are sitting in a car on a track Simulating the Experiance, its a game not the real thing ,if you want the real thing go get on track,

Who ever came up with that word needs a flogging

Sankyo
26-09-2017, 17:30
But saying something isn't a sim when it's simulating something is pointless! There's good sims and bad sims.

I agree with that 100%.

PeteUplink
26-09-2017, 17:30
My point being , we are not talking sim vs simcade , we are talking about the quality of the simulation experience in reality .


I've played some absolutely awesome simcade games (Jane's ATF) even if I am really into an acurate realistic simulation experience ( DCS a-10 ) as well.

I have a feeling people are using the word 'simcade' as an insult.

I think you're right. It is down to the quality of the simulation experience. For example I used you love Microprose flight simulations on my Amiga 500. F117-A Night Hawk, Gunship 2000, B-17 Flying Fortress, etc. I thought they were very realistic. But, looking back and comparing them to modern flight sims, they're not very realistic at all. However, I'd still rather play a Microprose style flight simulation rather than something like DCS World, because I just find the newer flight sims needlessly complex and quite dull. Not to say that DSC is a bad game/sim. It's obviously not. It just doesn't push my buttons the way the old Microprose stuff did.

Same with modern F1 games. I like them, but I'd much rather play Grand Prix 1 to 4 than anything Codemasters have made. Not to say that F1 20XX games are bad, they just don't grab me the way the older stuff did. Going back further there was the, at the time, excellent Ferrari Formula 1 by Electronic Arts. By today's standards it's terrible, but back in the 80's it was a genuine simulation of F1 racing in a Ferrari F1 car from 1988.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_S1Qst8OVo
sorry about the bad driving in this video. I couldn't find a video online of anyone who could control this game. It wasn't an easy beast to keep on track.

Each one of the games I've mentioned is a simulation in it's own right, it's just that some are more realistic than others. So Project Cars developers and fans have as much right to call it a simulation as anyone else. IMO.

zuotoski
26-09-2017, 17:30
...

I have a feeling people are using the word 'simcade' as an insult.

Yeap, you nailed it!

My 2 cents: I consider Pcars 1 and 2 a simulators, and good ones - I have fun playing it, exploring its possibilities, graphics, etc.. But I also have fun with other games. That being said, I don't agree when people try to diminish this or that game, because each one of them have its value (for me).
So, yeah, people use the word 'simcade' as an insult. It's more like an ego thing than anything else.

And to close my thoughts: simcade is a word that contradicts itself. How can something be simulator and arcade at the same time, doing the same thing? It's like to say that this square is a circle.

Sankyo
26-09-2017, 17:31
project cars is a game that tries to simulate various things in real life, and is doing a great job. Setting up the game with or without aids does not change its main feature which is a racing simulator but sets the difficulty level of the game. At this point I can make a comparison regarding the level of difficulty:
a) Easy = Arcade
b) Difficult = simulator
c) Something between A and B = simcade
Real race cars are not difficult to drive, so b) doesn't really hold.

Plato99
26-09-2017, 17:37
Real race cars are not difficult to drive, so b) doesn't really hold.

Tell that to anyone who's wrestled a pre-68 F1 car around Spa.

MABlosfeld
26-09-2017, 17:41
Real race cars are not difficult to drive, so b) doesn't really hold.

edit: what I meant was not in that sense, difficult because it requires more experience of the player to participate in races and get to the end without damage.

obs: sorry my english

zuotoski
26-09-2017, 17:47
^ to be honest, I consider NFS 2016 harder to play than Pcars :D

whip
26-09-2017, 17:49
Youtubers spreading crap to their sheep followers dont help.

3800racingfool
26-09-2017, 18:16
Gotta love how this subject never ceases to crop up over, and over, and over... Time for the copy/pasta.


First off, the term "Simcade" is an absolutely terrible butchering of the English language that is used by the ignorant as a favorite way to slander a product they don't like. The term doesn't even make any sense as, when it is broken down into it's two parent words, 'simulation' and 'arcade', the most appropriate definition would be a room full of coin-operated simulators. So please, avoid using this pathetic term at all costs. You'll feel much smarter once you've removed it from your language dictionary.

Secondly, what is a "Sim"? "Sim" is short for "Simulation" which, if we look up the definition of Simulation, it is as follows:


1. Simulation is the imitation of the operation of a real-world process or system over time.

So, in essence, a Simulation is something that imitates something that actually happens in the real world. What does Project CARS simulate?

1. It simulates real-world surfaces such as asphalt, gravel and grass.
2. It simulates numerous vehicles which are driven on the aforementioned simulated surfaces.
3. It simulates the physical changes of the tires on those vehicles over time.
4. It simulates changes to the surfaces as the result of interaction with the vehicle tires.
5. It simulates the real world phenomenons of rain, clouds, sunshine, light, shadow, etc.
6. It simulates the passage of time and the effects time has on all of the above objects.
7. It simulates real-world, man made events called races which are organized competitions featuring multiple sessions of practice and qualifying and a main event.

So yes, Project CARS is a simulator in every sense of the word just like iRacing or Assetto Corsa, or any other game people love to flog as their "true sim" of choice. They are all simulators because they all imitate one or more real-world events or phenomenons. The question that should be asked (which hardly ever is in these discussions) is: "How accurate of a simulation is it?". Without adequate experience and knowledge of the real-world phenomenons that these simulators replicate, a person is not qualified to answer that question. We can therefore either attempt to attain that knowledge ourselves through real-world experience and learning, or we can rely on the analysis of people who are qualified (in this instance, real life racing drivers and other professional drivers), to provide that answer.

MABlosfeld
26-09-2017, 18:21
In fact, the level of difficulty could be translated as follows:
arcade = easy = without worrying about damage or rules, just play.
simulator = hardcore = follow the rules and avoid damages.
simcade = middle term = something between no harm but with rules, for example.

breyzipp
26-09-2017, 18:21
Name me any other so called "sim" that does this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yjgO0yylhc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebvu9I3DL_s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNiYDgv9I8w

GrimeyDog
26-09-2017, 19:07
The thing i find is that most Sim Racers that think they are fast and Maybe even they are Fast...but they only get Good at a Game or 2 and when a New Sim Racing game comes out they find themselves down graded to a Average Racer again because its Not what their used to... Instead of taming their time to Learn the New Game Physics, Tracks, Cars etc they Rather Bash and Slander because it certainly must be that the Game Sucks and thats the Reason their Lap times are off:p

I also Agree that if its called a Sim then its a Sim and it should be Rated by the Quality of its Simulation --> But that just opens another can of beans because when peoples favorite Sim get a Low Sim Score then the Bashing Begins all over again just under a Different title or ratings system.

Just My 2cents the word Simcade does Not bother or offend Me ....Me I like it, He Hates it, Some one else Loves it its just how it is perspective is the hardest thing to get aligned in any Group of people.

IMO
Simcade = any game with Extra or Behind the scenes CPU controlled assist/Help that keep the Car planted or Stable that the user has No control to turn them off or on even if all game Assist are set to off.

Sim= A Game that uses Real Life assit that can be set to Off or On with No Etra Behind the scenes/CPU controlled help to keep the car stable or planted.

I always Drive with Assist Off for Me they they have Never felt right or Natural and make my Laps slower--> I like to throttle steer ---> New Games i cant even tell you if they feel any better than they once did because i turn them off right away.

ramm21
26-09-2017, 19:18
Project Cars 2 simulates real life racing like Call of Duty simulates real life combat.

Just my honest opinion.

SpeedLimitUnknown
26-09-2017, 19:28
I hate the phrase simcade but for those who like to use it, I think Forza probably best fits that category...
Arcade = NFS series
Simcade = Forza
Sim = PC2
Hardcore Sim = iRacing

gotdirt410sprintcar
26-09-2017, 19:30
Call of duty lol never Bf all day lol sorry off topic

zuotoski
26-09-2017, 19:35
Simulator is simulator, arcade is arcade - It is one thing or it is another.

Simcade = powdered water

zuotoski
26-09-2017, 19:37
Call of duty lol never Bf all day lol sorry off topic

:D Jokes apart, this is what is going on when people talk about racing games.

Diluvian
26-09-2017, 19:46
In the end, everything which models a behaviour is a simulator independently if it's intended to replicate a real behaviour or an 'arcadish' behaviour.

Or in other words, every racing game is a simulator (imo). If a simulator is capable of replicating real life behaviour or not depends on the simulators complexity and on the parametrization.

It's not ok to say AC, rFactor, pcars, iRacing is simcade or arcade but to say it's not well parametrized :) ('in your opinion').. I'm sure pcars2 uses one of the most powerful (and still running fast) simulators but that doesn't mean that everything is setup (parameterized) perfectly (monster task) but they made a fantastic job in most parts. Still there are some weak points but that doesn't mean it's not a simulator, it's just not parametrized perfectly yet ;).

Boskapongen
26-09-2017, 19:49
IMO it´s not only the game/sim, its how you play it. Who drives their car to work with a controller in chase view? :p

Gloomy
26-09-2017, 19:51
It's a sim. Some people think there can only be one sim racer in existence and if another simulates something slightly less or differently then it's automatically a sim cade.

Cholton82
26-09-2017, 20:00
I have real world experience with a number of race tracks that are featured in PCars , I'd question the credentials of anyone who thinks it isn't a sim to be honest. I remember the first car I tried in Pcars 1 which was the Clio Cup and I took it around Donington , once the tyres had reached a decent temperature the feeling of Craner Curves and staying on throttle so the rear didn't come loose was almost perfect. I knew then I was onto a winner with this game.

chig88
26-09-2017, 20:04
I haven't played PCARS 2 yet (it's downloading now, get off my ass ;)) so my opinion is based on the first game, but I wouldn't call Project CARS anything other than a sim.

Laser scanned tracks, excellent (in my opinion) physics, and a diverse range of cars needing something different to master each one. I don't think you get many of those things in an arcade like racer.

hkraft300
26-09-2017, 20:04
SMS collaborated with a bunch of race drivers, engineers, manufacturers, test drivers and Pirelli. SMS asked for their feedback and built a game that convinced the professionals of motorsport that it's pretty bloody close to their day job.

I enjoy PC2 for what it is. It fools me into believing I'm trackside in Nomex overalls. It handles convincingly, the cars and ffb react the way real cars have in my hands.

Lot of guys like to stick to their game of choice. They confuse ffb for physics.
Just because you're fast in iracing doesn't mean you'll be fast in real life...

Edit: oh those iracing guys also have to justify the dollars they spend and keep their egos inflated :glee:

Animera
26-09-2017, 20:07
All I'm going to say is I'm 53, have been playing racing games since the 80's, and PCars2 is the best racing game I've ever played.

ramm21
26-09-2017, 20:29
I have real world experience with a number of race tracks that are featured in PCars , I'd question the credentials of anyone who thinks it isn't a sim to be honest. I remember the first car I tried in Pcars 1 which was the Clio Cup and I took it around Donington , once the tyres had reached a decent temperature the feeling of Craner Curves and staying on throttle so the rear didn't come loose was almost perfect. I knew then I was onto a winner with this game.

The first time I ever did an HPDE I thought I was way ahead of the curve. I was at Laguna Seca, and having driven hours at that track in PC1 before the day came, the real life experience was nothing like sitting in my computer room in my rig. Don't get me wrong, some things are great at preparing you for real life. My "instructor" was impressed by my braking and how I rolled onto the throttle at the apex. I knew the line from the first lap, which was also very helpful, obviously.

However, there are things that a sim just can't prepare you for. The G forces hitting your arms and legs as youre trying to shuffle your feet from brake to throttle, the heat accumulating with every lap inside the cockpit, the sweat dripping down your face making it hard to concentrate on actual driving.

I'll leave it with this- The third or fourth session a car spun coming out of the corkscrew. Flags being waved like crazy, and I had no idea. PC1 taught me to concentrate on the track so much, that I had a lot of trouble glancing at corner workers and flags my first few track days. If that instructor wasn't in the car with me and told me to slow down, there was a good chance I would have dropped into the corkscrew without a worry, only to find another car sitting on track backwards.

PC2 is a true simulator in some ways, but completely lacking in a lot of other areas.

Bealdor
26-09-2017, 20:59
I hate the phrase simcade but for those who like to use it, I think Forza probably best fits that category...
Arcade = NFS series
Simcade = Forza
Sim = PC2
Hardcore Sim = iRacing

The only thing that's "hardcore" about iRacing is their pricing...

Francisnf
26-09-2017, 21:02
The only thing that's "hardcore" about iRacing is their pricing...

Agreed.

Not sure why that person thinks Iracing is anymore hardcore than any other sim.

Tbolt
26-09-2017, 21:05
IMO it´s not only the game/sim, its how you play it. Who drives their car to work with a controller in chase view? :p

Who drives PC with the chase view?

Cholton82
26-09-2017, 21:11
The first time I ever did an HPDE I thought I was way ahead of the curve. I was at Laguna Seca, and having driven hours at that track in PC1 before the day came, the real life experience was nothing like sitting in my computer room in my rig. Don't get me wrong, some things are great at preparing you for real life. My "instructor" was impressed by my braking and how I rolled onto the throttle at the apex. I knew the line from the first lap, which was also very helpful, obviously.

However, there are things that a sim just can't prepare you for. The G forces hitting your arms and legs as youre trying to shuffle your feet from brake to throttle, the heat accumulating with every lap inside the cockpit, the sweat dripping down your face making it hard to concentrate on actual driving.

I'll leave it with this- The third or fourth session a car spun coming out of the corkscrew. Flags being waved like crazy, and I had no idea. PC1 taught me to concentrate on the track so much, that I had a lot of trouble glancing at corner workers and flags my first few track days. If that instructor wasn't in the car with me and told me to slow down, there was a good chance I would have dropped into the corkscrew without a worry, only to find another car sitting on track backwards.

PC2 is a true simulator in some ways, but completely lacking in a lot of other areas.

I agree with a lot of what you say , the feeling of driving the Nordshleife in real life is like nothing else and no amount of clever physics / motion rigs or VR will emulate the feeling of fear and anxiety that I get when I pull on a helmet and start a lap on a track day there . Don't get me wrong I enjoy it but I'm always a little relieved to make it back in one piece .

John Hargreaves
26-09-2017, 21:17
Speaking as someone who bought iRacing for the single player experience, rFactor for the graphical fidelity of the tracks and Assetto Corsa for the career, all really good videogames, I would consider PC2 to be a simulation, and an excellent one at that.

Ex01
26-09-2017, 21:48
I view this as more sim than anything, in an interview with Mr Bell he even said they had to make it less sim to cater for the 'hard core guys' who claim nothing is a sim unless it's impossible to drive.
So if anything these hard core lot actually make the game more dumbed down to be more arcady to cater for their blinkered views.

MABlosfeld
26-09-2017, 21:53
when you have a game that was designed to be a simulator with 99% real-world fidelity and inside the box the game allows you to CHANGE / DISABLE options like tire wear, fuel consumption, damage, rules, gear shift, clutch, penalties, for me, the game remains a simulator but simpler to be played.

AVO
26-09-2017, 22:00
Is someone able to replicate this behaviour in the official release?
IMHO it was quite convincing and very different from what we have now...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=deNrOl5MDvc

On my build the escort bogs down in first gear. Here he can light up the tires in second (as expected)!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YkWjICYW9Oc

rosko
26-09-2017, 22:13
It's not a simcade.
Are the driving physics as good or better than other sims? I'm on the fence. At times the planted nature of the race cars feels like I imagine it should do. At other times it feels or even looks a bit off. At the moment I'm really enjoying the game too much to care.

rosko
26-09-2017, 22:21
I view this as more sim than anything, in an interview with Mr Bell he even said they had to make it less sim to cater for the 'hard core guys' who claim nothing is a sim unless it's impossible to drive.
So if anything these hard core lot actually make the game more dumbed down to be more arcady to cater for their blinkered views.

I actually think Mr bell and allot of others here miss the point. Many people who like sims like rfactor and ac are not saying the game is arcade because it's easy they are saying the physics are bad and don't act naturally. It's a bit of a strawman to keep saying it's because it's easy.

naufaltsar
26-09-2017, 22:38
Driving sim? Yes, but not racing sim... We don't even have sc,drs zone,fcy?(don't know about this one) to simulate actual racing

gotdirt410sprintcar
26-09-2017, 22:38
:D Jokes apart, this is what is going on when people talk about racing games.

Yep you like and dislike stuff so do i and others. And we can't have everything in the game only way. VR And a motion sim now that guy's name
Is Ian bell lmao probably says no problems here guys lol.

hkraft300
27-09-2017, 01:26
Driving sim? Yes, but not racing sim... We don't even have sc,drs zone,fcy?(don't know about this one) to simulate actual racing

In the league I'm in, sometimes 1 driver will act as safety car. He will take the pace car role on a rolling start. In a "full course yellow" situation (super heavy rain period, big crash in little track) the race director calls SC/FCY and the lead car acts as pace car. Endurance races in prototypes/GT don't have DRS zones. That's very F1/DTM-centric. So, would that have made PC1 less sim by your definition of lacking these racing features? We'll be doing the same in PC2 when the league kicks off.

Ian Bell
27-09-2017, 02:19
it is a sim, but console oriented.

so he has a good realistic physics (tyre edge is something superlative), but lack of some features a sim should have (and the other sim have) cause -my opinion- they can't or don't wnat spend time to implement it on consoles.

Just interested, what features do we lack that a sim should have?

We have a Proper dynamic surface, LiveTrack 3.0, Insane post brush model tyre system, proper heat modelling and brake modelling, engine braking, Fully dynamic changeable weather, fully dynamic time of day, seasons, online rankings, 29 different motorsports etc etc.

I'd say others lack more features a sim should have.

Silraed
27-09-2017, 04:31
I actually think Mr bell and allot of others here miss the point. Many people who like sims like rfactor and ac are not saying the game is arcade because it's easy they are saying the physics are bad and don't act naturally. It's a bit of a strawman to keep saying it's because it's easy.

It's all very complicated. There is a lot of criticism thrown at the pCARS series for having the terrible physics but it always comes back to it being too easy at the end of a debate. I find it a little funny that pCARS is the only sim singled out for being different and not "acting naturally"* when every big established sim behaves noticeably differently, every sim has moments where it feels wrong and unnatural to me, so which is the correct one? The answer is 99% of us as players have no freaking clue because we have not driven these race cars, we get adjusted to how a game behaves and then anything that isn't that is wrong and not natural. Even some of the professional drivers helping with the games might not be 100% reliable because they might not have the experience in the virtual world of racing to be able to translate what they are feeling without all the real world forces.

* I will say I agree the first game had some situations where it did feel alien and didn't act naturally, but from what I've driven so far that is mostly gone in the second game. Some of what I've read from the super hardcore guys out there though would lead you to believe the second game is running on the exact same "arcade" physics as the first, as if an improvement can't be made, despite every big sim going through significant changes in how they behave and feel over their lifetime and probably will continue to do so.

Kaerar
27-09-2017, 04:36
Just interested, what features do we lack that a sim should have?

We have a Proper dynamic surface, LiveTrack 3.0, Insane post brush model tyre system, proper heat modelling and brake modelling, engine braking, Fully dynamic changeable weather, fully dynamic time of day, seasons, online rankings, 29 different motorsports etc etc.

I'd say others lack more features a sim should have.

Full course Yellow's (even if you find them boring Ian). The ability to replicate as closely as possible the various series and championships the cars and tracks in the game allow for. Like the Blancpain series, the Indycar series, NASCAR etc...

There's no debate that pCARS2 hasn't made leaps and bounds in many many areas, however there's still a few rough edges:

Cars with numb handling really is a huge deal breaker for some. Cars like the McLaren 720S show what is possible from the FFB system in pCARS2, the fact it's not that detailed on all the other cars, especially some of the Aston's and the older carry overs from the first game is a big problem.

While dry grip is pretty damn close, at least as good as the other notables like iRacing and rFactor2, when it comes to wet it's almost like you get the perfect tires for the conditions or better than which results in incredible grip levels in some cars. I honestly haven't had time to test all the cars, however in the GT4's, the Clio Cup and the 720S it felt like I had all the grip I desired in the wet instead of feeling the slip levels of the tires on the water. Puddles however were awesome :D

That's the list from my short time with the game so far, I'm sure there'll be many other features I would like, for instance configurable tournament modes with exposed access to rule variables and applications as well as different Safety Car scenario's allowing for full 24hr races and replicating things like the Nords 24hr with it's insane ~160car grid from GT3 down to Clio Cup pretty much in availability. But that maybe pushing limits to levels pCARS2 is not capable of yet.

Ian Bell
27-09-2017, 04:55
Full course Yellow's (even if you find them boring Ian). The ability to replicate as closely as possible the various series and championships the cars and tracks in the game allow for. Like the Blancpain series, the Indycar series, NASCAR etc...

There's no debate that pCARS2 hasn't made leaps and bounds in many many areas, however there's still a few rough edges:

Cars with numb handling really is a huge deal breaker for some. Cars like the McLaren 720S show what is possible from the FFB system in pCARS2, the fact it's not that detailed on all the other cars, especially some of the Aston's and the older carry overs from the first game is a big problem.

While dry grip is pretty damn close, at least as good as the other notables like iRacing and rFactor2, when it comes to wet it's almost like you get the perfect tires for the conditions or better than which results in incredible grip levels in some cars. I honestly haven't had time to test all the cars, however in the GT4's, the Clio Cup and the 720S it felt like I had all the grip I desired in the wet instead of feeling the slip levels of the tires on the water. Puddles however were awesome :D

That's the list from my short time with the game so far, I'm sure there'll be many other features I would like, for instance configurable tournament modes with exposed access to rule variables and applications as well as different Safety Car scenario's allowing for full 24hr races and replicating things like the Nords 24hr with it's insane ~160car grid from GT3 down to Clio Cup pretty much in availability. But that maybe pushing limits to levels pCARS2 is not capable of yet.

You've listed one feature 'missing'. We don't want it in. The rest are quibbles, not missing features.

Kaerar
27-09-2017, 05:02
You've listed one feature 'missing'. We don't want it in. The rest are quibbles, not missing features.

We being? You? The whole dev team? Or the people who buy your product? There seems to be quite a few sim racers out there who would really like to see some of those "quibbles" addressed and that particular feature present. You could even have that particular feature you don't like have a configuration option that defaults to off if it's really that much of an issue. But denying it because "We don't want it in" to the people buying the product of which there is a percentage who do, well it's just a bit arbitrary is it not?

Ian Bell
27-09-2017, 05:21
We being? You? The whole dev team? Or the people who buy your product? There seems to be quite a few sim racers out there who would really like to see some of those "quibbles" addressed and that particular feature present. You could even have that particular feature you don't like have a configuration option that defaults to off if it's really that much of an issue. But denying it because "We don't want it in" to the people buying the product of which there is a percentage who do, well it's just a bit arbitrary is it not?

Can you try to stop being combative please? It gives me zero interest in engaging with you.

Kaerar
27-09-2017, 05:42
Can you try to stop being combative please? It gives me zero interest in engaging with you.

Apologies if it came off as combative, I was trying to give constructive criticism in regards to pCARS 2. Spent more hours than I care to think about in Shift 2 Unleashed, backed pCARS and have been racing a lot of iRacing over the last couple of years. Just hoping to see some of the sim aspects of pCARS2 achieve the heights I believe it capable of.

STRAKKA R11
27-09-2017, 05:50
Play most racing gamed on my Xbox. And this is for sure a simulation. Each feature in the game is as good a sim they can get. AC is just as good a Simulation as well and to a point forza and F1. My issue is that the latest AC update wiped all my progress 😡😡. Love all my racing games and as long as i find them fun i don't care about a label :).

breyzipp
27-09-2017, 06:13
Play most racing gamed on my Xbox. And this is for sure a simulation. Each feature in the game is as good a sim they can get. AC is just as good a Simulation as well and to a point forza and F1. My issue is that the latest AC update wiped all my progress ����. Love all my racing games and as long as i find them fun i don't care about a label :).

I'm not sure what sim you find in Forza. It has a rewind button, astronauts and mummies behind the wheel, GT2, GT3, GTE, GT500 and Super Trofeo all in 1 class (same for Group C, LMP900, LMP1, LMP2, DP), game-wide assists with no "real setting" so you can end up with manual + clutch for LMP1 cars or automatic + ABS + TCS + ESP for pre-war formula cars, every car has a handbrake (LMP1's with a handbrake...). And it's handling model is just for kids, even in the FM7 demo in the rain with all assists off you can just zigzag drift that Nissan GT500 from left to right and back on the Nurburgring straights in true Need for Speed fashion style.

The only thing Forza simulates really well is the needs of the 21st century instant-gratification inpatient YouTube Pokemon generation. Again that rewind button, loot crates, drivers costumes ranging from mummies and chefs to astronauts and tuxedos, cars to unlock, Hoonigan and Fast & Furious cars to look cool (while any new proper motorsport racing car is totally absent), rat races from last place to first in 3 laps, overly dramatic clouds and weather, a simple single tire compound model since requiring pitstops to change tires would be too difficult for the young kids this game is aimed at, Forza edition cars with bonusses and to just look even more cool than the basic cars, and a frekkin friction assist in case the already arcade style handling is still not easy enough for you...

But, we should be happy. With each iteration Forza obviously caters more and more to the young kids and people completely new to racing games. The time this game was actually about Motorsport are long gone. But I see Forza as a great breathing pool for new sim racing customers. Let's face it, a game as deep and complex as Project CARS is probably for many potential new racing game/sim fans a bit harsh to get into, sure they might be able to drive it, but they won't understand the depth of it. Let them start with Forza, let them enjoy it for a couple years. They will grow interested in real life motorsports as well. They will slowly start to realize their beloved car racing game is in fact not as realistic as they thought. They will look around and discover the real sims, they will move on to these sims and find the authenticity they were severely lacking in Forza. That is no story, that is exactly how it went with me from 2015 (GT6, FH2, FM6) to 2017 (PC2). The new customers of Forza today will be potentially be the new customers of Project CARS in the future. The success of Forza is like the long term investment plan for Project CARS. :)

Kebabfelix
27-09-2017, 06:39
Ian save yourself some sanity. You can never aruge with sim fanboys.

All I have to say, I did not enjoy Project Cars 1 at all when talking about the driving aspect.

I moved on to Assetto Corsa and have around 560 hours in it.

Project Cars 2 surprised me A LOT, we hear about they hype and we want to believe it but deep down you are skeptical to what all the devs say.

However PC2 is freaking great, the FFB is very informative and everything feels so alive and not as sterile as AC.

Coming from AC it does remind me a lot about the driving but a mix with Rfactor 2 in how you can feel the tyreflex.

To me PC2 is for sure a sim!

pri3st
27-09-2017, 07:14
Ian save yourself some sanity. You can never aruge with sim fanboys.

All I have to say, I did not enjoy Project Cars 1 at all when talking about the driving aspect.

I moved on to Assetto Corsa and have around 560 hours in it.

Project Cars 2 surprised me A LOT, we hear about they hype and we want to believe it but deep down you are skeptical to what all the devs say.

However PC2 is freaking great, the FFB is very informative and everything feels so alive and not as sterile as AC.

Coming from AC it does remind me a lot about the driving but a mix with Rfactor 2 in how you can feel the tyreflex.

To me PC2 is for sure a sim!

My exact thoughts. I fired up AC yesterday after binging on pc2 since release. And yes Ido ffb more in Ac the AI is better in Ac but project cars 2 has got that organic feel to it, oh and the cool down lap and being able to just go in the garage after race, small thing but man it's great +100 to immersion.

snakehands
27-09-2017, 07:26
From where Im sitting, PC2 is definitely a full on racing simulation. Mind you, I'm in VR, have a proper wheel, pedals, race frame and shakers. The caterham around Oulton is perfection. As for FCY, pfft.......boring.

GrimeyDog
27-09-2017, 10:28
Pcars2 The Rally X Racing is incredible!!! I just Knew this is where Pcars2 would fail!!! It Made Me doubt the whole Game because it was Branching out to too many types of Racing... But SMS Got it Right!!! Better than any Rally Racing Only Game Dirt4, Dirt Rally and all the others Never Felt this Good!!! and you can Feel your Buttkickers work!!! Buttkickers Never work right with None of the Codemasters games Rally or F1.

SMS Did a Great Job... im sure as the Patches roll out Pcars2 will be even better because SMS did a Great job patching and Pcars1 <---Even if some say that Pcars1 was Never 100% fixed the effort put out by SMS to Fix it showed Great Effort and Dedication to do the best they could and deserves recognition and applaus!!!

100% Sim Racer --> Especially in VR!!! in VR you can adjust All your Mirror angles!!! Some one explain How thats Not true to Life Sim Racing.

pkcraistlin
27-09-2017, 10:42
the only people that use "simcade" as if it's a real word or real description, are complete wankers.

morpwr
27-09-2017, 11:26
Id have to say pcars2 is damn good and will definitely keep me occupied for a while.

whip
27-09-2017, 11:27
ppl that say simcade are fanboys of other sims and using it as an insult to claim their fav is better

Roger Prynne
27-09-2017, 11:32
This thread is so pointless :rolleyes:

Sankyo
27-09-2017, 11:39
This thread is so pointless :rolleyes:
You mean arcade?

LukeC
27-09-2017, 11:41
You mean arcade?

To me it's arcane.

donkey racer
27-09-2017, 11:48
as a assetto fanboy pcars 2 is defiantly a sim :redface-new:

danowat
27-09-2017, 11:51
Who's to blame for making up the ridiculous term "simcade", can we find them and kick them in the backside please.

Kelderek
27-09-2017, 11:52
as a assetto fanboy pcars 2 is defiantly a sim :redface-new:

You just got ejected from the Assetto Fanboy Fraternity... :p

zuotoski
27-09-2017, 12:14
Who's to blame for making up the ridiculous term "simcade", can we find them and kick them in the backside please.

I thought the same thing when I first heard it. There is a bigger issue: big Youtubers, famous and some of them respected, use this word as reference - others learn it, and it starts to be correct and usual. I just can't get it.

Sum Dixon-Ear
27-09-2017, 12:16
Who's to blame for making up the ridiculous term "simcade", can we find them and kick them in the backside please.

I think it might have been Darin Gangi, unfortunately there's a long queue.

Human_bean
27-09-2017, 12:42
I am also a fanboy of assetto and i can confirm that project cars 2 is not forza or gran turismo.

BigFred
27-09-2017, 12:44
Simcade is a great term. it basically says, we want to make a game that simulates a real life activity, but we are going to make compromises in order to make it more accessible. It's a good description and identifies that the developer is not simply aiming to produce the most realistic simulation possible. The areas where it does not simulate real life might not be due to bad coding, or incomplete models, or lack of time, but due to specific design choices. Since ALL games make compromises with respect to playability, you might argue that terms like "simcade" and "sim" are best applied wrt handling only (example, safety cars).

To me, it isn't up to the userbase to decide whether a game is a "sim" or not. Aside from the fact it isn't a scientific term, it makes no logical sense. You can see this from a simple argument by considering 2 games, Mario Kart and PCars. Most people would say Mario Kart is not a "sim" but it simulates elements of driving. So why isn't it judged as a "sim" ? The answer is that the developers never marketed or claimed that it should be judged on that basis. Not that they need to, because everyone knows implicitly that it is not supposed to be a real world simulation. Similarly, PCars is marketed as a sim, and it's developers make claims that it supposed to be a simulation of real life racing in many (but not all) aspects.

So the bottom line is, it's the developer of the game that decides whether or not a game is to be judged as a simulation, either explicitly via their claims, or implicitly via the features they implement. The role of the userbase isn't to decide whether a game is a sim or not, but to decide whether it is a good sim or a bad one. So the simple answer to the binary question, "is it a sim or not" is "of course it is". The answer to the question "is it a good sim or a bad one" or "is it the best sim or the worst sim" that is to some degree subjective and, well, a lot more complicated.

rosko
27-09-2017, 12:45
I think it might have been Darin Gangi, unfortunately there's a long queue.

I do think in the sim community there is a degree of wanting credibility amongst its peers & Darin is exactly the sort of guy who would troll a sim just to gain some points. Its funny that many of these adults are so immature at times. I know in the AC forums some people just need to feel superior maybe because irl there life is too ordinary or other reasons. On the other side i think people should be open to real criticism ie with evidence. I noticed the other day that Jimmy Broadbent was now slating the games physics & moving the wheel from side to side CLK GT1 saying it wasn't normal for a car to act this way, he was being quite obnoxious tbh & i know he has his own issues but imo wasn't really making much of an argument.

danowat
27-09-2017, 12:49
I think it might have been Darin Gangi, unfortunately there's a long queue.

Now there's a name I'd forgotten!

headder
27-09-2017, 12:53
For me, the pure AC 'all DLC owner' and 'AC tire model fan'. I must admit... that the Project Cars 2 is not a simcade. It's just a sim, the pure sim. With it's own bugs that would be fixed soon, but still: it's a good sim.

I adore pCars2 tire mode, grip, handling even more then R3E or rFactor2.

whip
27-09-2017, 12:57
I do think in the sim community there is a degree of wanting credibility amongst its peers & Darin is exactly the sort of guy who would troll a sim just to gain some points. Its funny that many of these adults are so immature at times. I know in the AC forums some people just need to feel superior maybe because irl there life is too ordinary or other reasons. On the other side i think people should be open to real criticism ie with evidence. I noticed the other day that Jimmy Broadbent was now slating the games physics & moving the wheel from side to side CLK GT1 saying it wasn't normal for a car to act this way, he was being quite obnoxious tbh & i know he has his own issues but imo wasn't really making much of an argument.

JB is full of crap and just says whatever he thinks will get him more views, he also thinks hes a physics expert and is rude to anyone who doesn't agree with him, youtube has given him a big head when in reality he is a jobless guy living at his parents house playing video games and living off donations

hes a massive RF2 fanboy,

Sum Dixon-Ear
27-09-2017, 13:02
Now there's a name I'd forgotten!

Please accept my heartfelt apologies for reminding you.

pkcraistlin
27-09-2017, 13:06
Simcade is a great term. it basically says, we want to make a game that simulates a real life activity, but we are going to make compromises in order to make it more accessible.

nope. it's a made-up term of derision that means nothing, used by wankers.

Sankyo
27-09-2017, 13:22
Oooh, instead of "simcade" we should switch to "arsim". That connects a lot better to the person uttering the word.

whip
27-09-2017, 13:25
Oooh, instead of "simcade" we should switch to "arsim". That connects a lot better to the person uttering the word.

arculator

Sankyo
27-09-2017, 13:28
arculator
Already taken (http://b-em.bbcmicro.com/arculator/) :)

Sum Dixon-Ear
27-09-2017, 13:30
Arsim Sneermulator

GAT_Montana
27-09-2017, 13:32
Let me guess....most of the people who are complaining that the sim is not realistic have not even a driving licence and sitting at the Sofa, with a playstation controller? Or perhaps on a simple office chair, using (in best case) a Logitech wheel, mountet at the desk? Looking at a flat 21" screen :)

Sum Dixon-Ear
27-09-2017, 13:36
Let me guess....most of the people who are complaining that the sim is not realistic have not even a driving licence and sitting at the Sofa, with a playstation controller? Or perhaps on a simple office chair, using (in best case) a Logitech wheel, mountet at the desk? Looking at a flat 21" screen :)

So, you're calling them simcade?

Lol.

zuotoski
27-09-2017, 13:50
... on a simple office chair, using (in best case) a Logitech wheel, mountet at the desk? Looking at a flat screen :)

That's my scenario, except that my screen is 27" 144hz, but I don't call it anything other than simulator. This is what I can afford, and I'm proud of it. :)

Kaerar
27-09-2017, 13:55
Let me guess....most of the people who are complaining that the sim is not realistic have not even a driving licence and sitting at the Sofa, with a playstation controller? Or perhaps on a simple office chair, using (in best case) a Logitech wheel, mountet at the desk? Looking at a flat 21" screen :)

Would be willing to bet some are, also willing to bet that if you got Nicki Thiim on here he'd be having similar complaints to those who've raced IRL and in other sim's. It's not necessarily bad to get feedback that's negative, if anything it should help see whether there's an issue with things and whether there's a way to improve on features the game has.

Personally been racing IRL (although not professionally) and driven more than my fair share of road miles. I just want to see Project Cars improve.

MABlosfeld
27-09-2017, 14:19
Many refer to physics as being the main item to define whether a game is a SIMULATOR or not, for me, all games are simulators, some more complex, some not, some more true to the real world, others not, but I can set the game playability according to my preferences, I can TURN ON HELP, BRAKE, DIRECTION, DRIVING LINES, I can use AUTOMATIC GEAR CHANGER on cars that in real world use GEAR CHANGER H, I can drive car with hood sight, ceiling, chasing even knowing that in the real world the driver drives the car in the cockpit. In short, you can change several things and leave different from the real world but the game will remain a SIMULATOR, but easier and simpler to play.

edit: the more resources used in the real world, the closer to the real world the game will be.
edit2: my english is very bad

GAT_Montana
27-09-2017, 14:24
Would be willing to bet some are, also willing to bet that if you got Nicki Thiim on here he'd be having similar complaints to those who've raced IRL and in other sim's. It's not necessarily bad to get feedback that's negative, if anything it should help see whether there's an issue with things and whether there's a way to improve on features the game has.

Personally been racing IRL (although not professionally) and driven more than my fair share of road miles. I just want to see Project Cars improve.

Please dont get me wrong, I am just asking how to judge if a (CONSOLE) Racing GAME is realistic or not? This is a very general question. I have doubts that this is possible at all, especially with simple gaming Hardware and zero experience how a real race car works on track. Many people think its just a simulation if your car tries to kill you continously :)

Robhd
27-09-2017, 14:42
Oooh, instead of "simcade" we should switch to "arsim". That connects a lot better to the person uttering the word.

...and you had a go at me Remco for fooling about! Shame on you cos u iz da law here!...lmao!

Kaerar
27-09-2017, 15:18
Please dont get me wrong, I am just asking how to judge if a (CONSOLE) Racing GAME is realistic or not? This is a very general question. I have doubts that this is possible at all, especially with simple gaming Hardware and zero experience how a real race car works on track. Many people think its just a simulation if your car tries to kill you continously :)

On that I agree with you. However having raced with and against people like Nicki Thiim, Rubens Barrichello, AJ Allmendinger and other notable real life racers, who translate a lot of what they do IRL into the sim world, it's quite interesting to see what they say on the topic. I am nowhere near the skill level of those mentioned, but I've had some good fun racing Nicki at the Nordschleife in the iRacing VLN series and he doesn't have much negative to say about the simulation. Some stuff said has even been taken into account by iRacing.

So taking that into consideration it's not a stretch to think well hey iRacing is a reasonable yardstick to compare simulations to. Some people prefer the FFB from rFactor 2, some prefer the feel of Assetto Corsa, but at the end of the day there's not a whole heap different between them all, Project Cars 2 is now in this level of company.

Comparing like for like, I did a direct comparison of the AMG GT GT3 car from both iRacing and pCARS2. Been racing that car for ages now on iRacing and I know it pretty well even if I'm a second or so off the top guys around the ~1m40s tracks. The difference between the feel of the cars was stark though, I honestly thought I had my FFB setup totally wrong. However jumping into the Clio Cup or the McLaren 720S showed that to not be the case. The pCARS2 AMG GT GT3 is just numb at the front end, like there is no FFB forces being sent to the Wheel at all. The only feel you get is the ripple strips and the slight dive under heavy braking. Outside of that there's no tire stress, slip or brake lock feel at all. The 720S and Clio by comparison are giving you an entire story about the front end, how much slip, how much stress you are placing on the tire into the braking zone so you can ride the max braking deep into the corner and get on the power early. In the Clio you can feel the lift off oversteer as soon as you lift through the front wheels beautifully (and after 11 Peugeot 205's IRL I know way too much about lift off oversteer :D ) and get on the power right on cue to pull through the corner. It's like the AMG just got it's FFB dumped for the game. It's not the only car either as some of the Aston's have the same issue, can't remember which at the moment.

So as you can see, I'm passionate about cars, love the damn things! I love to have that same feel in a sim, something that Shift 2 Unleashed even showed me was possible (couldn't stand the iceracing of GTR2 etc. which was as you described). I'm not here to tear down the house, I genuinely want to feel that fun from all the cars, not just a select focused few.

DreamsKnight
27-09-2017, 19:00
it is a sim, but console oriented.

so he has a good realistic physics (tyre edge is something superlative), but lack of some features a sim should have (and the other sim have) cause -my opinion- they can't or don't wnat spend time to implement it on consoles.

Just interested, what features do we lack that a sim should have?

We have a Proper dynamic surface, LiveTrack 3.0, Insane post brush model tyre system, proper heat modelling and brake modelling, engine braking, Fully dynamic changeable weather, fully dynamic time of day, seasons, online rankings, 29 different motorsports etc etc.

I'd say others lack more features a sim should have.

my post was not a criticism, but a simple consideration as an hardcore sim racer, mainly involved in online legue races on pc platform. my type of player is the same as those call PC2 a "simcade", think very well about this point.

I do a quick list of features I remember, but be clear, without making any judgments about what I think is better or worse.

2013, rfactor2

-dynamic surface/rubber on track
-tyre system pressure etc etc etc
-proper heat brake, engine, etc
-engine bracking
-fully dynamic changeable weather
-fully dynamic time of day
-flag, penalty, manual pit stop, strategy change, and damage repair (by user decision)
-physics considered as an excellent comparison term.

-warmup (removed in pc2...)
-saved setup and online exchange
-support for triple monitor in separate render and vr.
-profile for different peripherals and multiple inputs accepted for the same job(present also in AC and Raceroom)
-online driver exchange
-full replay, fully working, autosaved. you can view a replay, both off/online race and start to play in the point you are.
-you have a proper server admin. server admin can manage everything from skip a session, restart weekend, to user ban to add/remove AI on the fly.
-you can have a race direction who look replays in real time and can assign penalties in real time.
-proper stand alone server, higly configurable, with graphic interface. not fake server which open steam session.
-support for skins. you enter in an online race and you have an automatic download.
-safety car
-proper oval racing with all the rules
-support plugins both server side and client side. (so i can expand features to my tastes)
-support mods.
-3 virtual rear mirror, inclination of sides are configurable like a real car.
-i can install just the content i want.
-more than 32 online players.
-per car saved settings.

and more i don't remember. (29€, 15€ on sales. no planes for rfactor3. they are improving (doing new) graphics, menus, physics and online rankings, the first sim used by mclaren for their "World's Fastest Gamer" )


so, pcars 1 has some features present in an older sim. pcars 2 added other features present in an older sim. pcars 2 still lack some features present in an older sim. and I have a strong suspicion that these are things you can not do on consoles.

out there there are also raceroom, assetto corsa, with their good things pcars doesn't has. (i don't know automobilista).


so I do not want to sponsor rfactor 2, but I just want to have (some of) these things in pc2. and I would also like to take full advantage of my PC. if consoles have no ability to do certain things the problem is not mine, but theirs. remove features to them (assetto corsa?).
to say a thing is the best out there, imho is necessary to have all the things others have, better than them, and something more. but i know, these are not marketing rules.

Sampo
27-09-2017, 19:40
I'm not going to go into too much detail about your feature list, but was it like that at release in 2013? Or have 4 years passed and have features been added and bugs corrected? And btw, "console" nowadays is an eight core computer with 8GB memory and hard disk. Can an eight core computer do those things you listed?

Zeiss
27-09-2017, 20:13
Somewhere in between. Not quite at the frantic level of Assetto corsa physics, but definitely not simcade. The quality of physics do seem to vary from car to car though, just like with Pcars 1. Miles improved on pcars 1 physics however. Overall package on this one is very strong. Far more entertainment value than most I would say. It seems to do most things well.

rosko
27-09-2017, 20:33
Lap times seem very quick in comparison to real life.

Sankyo
27-09-2017, 20:38
Not quite at the frantic level of Assetto corsa physics,
What does that mean? Very realistic physics, or harder-than-real-life physics? :)

Yaycandy69
27-09-2017, 20:52
Very much a sim, control is very different from the 1st in a good way. Forgiving but dont take it for granted, you will be off the track quick

AVO
27-09-2017, 22:52
What does that mean? Very realistic physics, or harder-than-real-life physics? :)

I’d really like to live in your distorted reality... :rolleyes:

hkraft300
27-09-2017, 23:47
Can we stop confusing your personal ffb preference for physics? :hopelessness:

Also if someone is forza/gt, PC1/2 is miles above them in realism and respect to motor sport.

Had a guy in a facebook sim racing group shout me down for suggesting tire strategy and rain races can be a deciding factor for a slow car in an endurance race. Because he is so fast in iracing and tire management isn't a thing. Also wet races don't happen in iracing, and that is the ultimate racing sim :applause:
Sure thing mate, whatever makes you feel better for spending all that cash.

poirqc
28-09-2017, 00:39
Simcade doesn't mean anything. It's either an arcade game or a simulation. How good the simulation is irrelevant(nothing is every perfect).

As long as a game doesn't give kudos when taking a curve, or let you bind a nitro button, it's a simulator.


pCars 2 seems(I can't find time to play it enough :( ) to be a pretty good one, from my pov.

vegaguy5555
28-09-2017, 02:53
That's a good point.

All I have to say is, it must be good judging how hard the guys in AC are winning!

But really!! It doesn't matter, what really matters is how much money this generates, which I hope is a lot so other sims will look at this and try to out do Pcars 2.

We are the winning guys!!:D

Cheesenium
28-09-2017, 02:59
Every racing game is a simulation because it simulates the activity of racing to a certain degree. A game like AC will simulate more compared to a terrible mobile game like Real Racing 3, it does not mean AC is a simulation but RR3 is not. At the end, it is just different degree or extend of simulation.

At the end, I couldn't care less about a game is arcade, sim or simcade because the definition between all 3 is extremely vague with lots of personal bias. Hence, the main thing for me now is, whether is the actual driving fun or not. Mario Kart, Pcars, AC,or Forza has fun driving physics, I will keep playing these games regardless they are any of those 3 vague catogories. Games like NFS 2015 or The Crew have dreadful physics in my opinion with a very snappy and unintuitive handling, I stopped playing for a long time as I rather spend my time in games that interests me.

Sampo
28-09-2017, 03:35
Simcade is a term used to put down any other simulation than what you prefer. People who use it are afraid that "their game" is worse than something else.

Civic
28-09-2017, 04:06
I'm confident when PC2 has the features I bought it for and is working PC2 will be my favourite simulator.

I'll say PC2 is the first sim where the driving doesn't do anything that I'd consider strange and everything it does feels natural.

A really interesting thing for me is how other sims alter perception. If I sit in my sim rig and do a marathon session in iRacing when I go to the shops immediately after my car feels fake compared to what I have become accustomed to in iRacing. My real car feels odd after driving iRacing. Assetto Corsa had a much lesser effect on my perception of reality afterwards. But so far in PC2 I have been able to jump in my car after driving and there is adjustment period. They both feel different because one is sitting in front of a screen in a static rig and the other is sitting in a moving cabin but neither effect the other so that there is an adjustment period.

The other thing I find interesting is I haven't had to learn how to drive this sim. Every time I have returned to iRacing after a break it is like I'm a rookie again and I can't drive, I must learn how to drive the cars. Once I learn how to drive them they are easy enough, it's just that the way they drive is unfamiliar and it takes me a while to learn how they react because I have no reference point. AC only really has 3 odd behaviours that I know. The grip is odd and transitions unnaturally. There is a rebound feeling that I found hard to explain any other way. And there is a behaviour in handling issue that is the opposite of what I'd expect when cars that might under-steer under braking into corners will magically gain grip in the front tyres by accelerating. In PCARS2 I have been able to jump in cars and just drive and for the most part grip has for me so far been consistent with my expectations. I still find myself losing grip, making mistakes and driving like the kind of fast amateur I am but everything just seems right and natural and any spin or mistake makes sense and I just understand it.

So despite some issues with not being able to get heat into tyres and having a grip level consistent with those tyres at cold temp as far as the driving aspect goes I think PCARS2 will be my favourite sim.

It remains to be seen if it a realistic racing sim. To be one it must have the features that make people want to use it and then use it in a way that provides realistic racing simulation. In recent years the only platforms I have had realistic racing experiences on were SMS which was running on a flawed platform at the time. iRacing which is very hit and miss where you can end up frustrated by 10 disappointing races in a row. And I had a couple of impromptu races on Race07 I think a couple of years ago that were very good but I think that was mainly because the only people who were still racing on it actually want to race. Of any sim the best racing experiences I have had were on iRacing but they started to get fewer and farther between up until the point I left.

Considering the depth of simulation if SMS understand what leagues are actually looking for in online racing and/or host their own official racing series similar to iRacing I think PC2 could potentially be the best racing sim I have experienced.

I have never got along with either rFactor and have always preferred the Simbin games.

So yeah warts and all PC2 is a sim. But most people will invalidate my opinion as soon as I mention I think PC1 is a great sim as well.

hkraft300
28-09-2017, 04:22
Mario Kart is as hard as iracing or AC with enough THC in your system.

Does that make Mario Kart sim? :D

Kebabfelix
28-09-2017, 06:11
Every racing game is a simulation because it simulates the activity of racing to a certain degree. A game like AC will simulate more compared to a terrible mobile game like Real Racing 3, it does not mean AC is a simulation but RR3 is not. At the end, it is just different degree or extend of simulation.

At the end, I couldn't care less about a game is arcade, sim or simcade because the definition between all 3 is extremely vague with lots of personal bias. Hence, the main thing for me now is, whether is the actual driving fun or not. Mario Kart, Pcars, AC,or Forza has fun driving physics, I will keep playing these games regardless they are any of those 3 vague catogories. Games like NFS 2015 or The Crew have dreadful physics in my opinion with a very snappy and unintuitive handling, I stopped playing for a long time as I rather spend my time in games that interests me.

You got the term wrong.

Simulation in this case don't mean graphical simulation or the general idea of simulating a car into a game.

It means simulation of real data so a spring will move the same way over kerbs like they do in real life because it's simulated from real life.

So a mobile game obviously have no real world data that it simulates from, it's just basic code and no physic code.

hkraft300
28-09-2017, 07:10
...
So a mobile game obviously have no real world data that it simulates from, it's just basic code and no physic code.

You missed this part:


Every racing game is a simulation because it simulates the activity of racing to a certain degree.... At the end, it is just different degree or extend of simulation.

...

:)

Civic
28-09-2017, 14:02
Simcade is a great term. it basically says, we want to make a game that simulates a real life activity, but we are going to make compromises in order to make it more accessible.

So every sim is simcade.

Every sim makes compromises to be more accessible.

The official reason for autoclutch in iRacing is people would complain if there was stalling on starts.

Protests backed with evidence of intentional wrecking result in Racing Incident.

Shifting aids.

They added code so you could drive with your mobile phone and also support mouse+keyboard racing.

Spotter in every car.

All the HUD elements.

Driving line.

Does the L49 still have traction control to make it easier to drive? I refused to drive it when they did that. You could rev it to redline and dump the clutch and it would not spin the wheels, to be able to spin the wheels you had to catch it between code and dump the clutch while rolling at around 15 I think it was.

In car rollbar adjustments on the L49

Also changing the tyres on the L49 from classic tyres to modern tyres again to make it easier to drive.

Almost every update they made to that car was a compromise to make it more accessible.

When people complained about spinning out on cold tyres they updated them to make them easier to drive when cold.

DreamsKnight
28-09-2017, 14:57
Every sim makes compromises to be more accessible.
.

seems here they have not done compromises, with the result to be so accessible, to be called simcade. :ambivalence: :confused: :very_drunk:

Zeiss
28-09-2017, 15:05
What does that mean? Very realistic physics, or harder-than-real-life physics? :)

Good question. However, AC seems to have a level or two more fidelity overall. Not surprising though, as Kunos spends most of its development time on physics and not on much else. Although with some cars its very close, or at least close enough to not make a major difference. Which one is more realistic, I dont think many here would know exactly unless were talking extremes that would be obvious. As I said in my previous post, Pcars 2 is vastly improved from pcars 1 in terms of physics, or physics potential. Physics quality can, and does seem to vary from car to car however.

Death Proof
28-09-2017, 15:47
I just try to keep the meaning of the words reality and simulation in a clear understanding. For instance, a simulated nuclear explosion...very detailed and informative. Nothing like the real thing though. Nuclear simulation must be simcade.;)

sneakygloworm
28-09-2017, 17:15
Haha! Exactly! If it feels okay and drives okay, who cares. Only tyre model elitists. Also is it a sim if you don't play in VR. With a seatbelt on? Also if you hit the armco at 130mph, do you have to smash you're face into the floor to simulate terminal crash. Ironically, I think the A.I need patching on my run to work as they all drive like T@ssers!

snakehands
28-09-2017, 17:34
Simcade is an oxymoronic term

Leper Messiah
28-09-2017, 19:04
Project Cars 2 simulates real life racing like Call of Duty simulates real life combat.

Just my honest opinion.

I just can't let this crap slide...really? Do the COD games simulate bullet trajectories, do they simulate weapon damage (i.e. jams)...I could go on but I can't be arsed. There is NOTHING simulated in the COD game, if that's what you think of PC2 then I'm aghast I really am. I've read some nonsense on this subject in my time but that takes the biscuit!

zuotoski
28-09-2017, 19:15
I just can't let this crap slide...really? Do the COD games simulate bullet trajectories, do they simulate weapon damage (i.e. jams)...I could go on but I can't be arsed. There is NOTHING simulated in the COD game, if that's what you think of PC2 then I'm aghast I really am. I've read some nonsense on this subject in my time but that takes the biscuit!

Maybe he is trying to say that PCars 2 is not a simulator, in his words. :D

Leper Messiah
28-09-2017, 19:18
Lap times seem very quick in comparison to real life.

not this.....look, track conditions change yeah? So unless you find exactly the same conditions in game that the real times were set then it's a valid argument, seeing as that is almost completely impossible to ascertain then it's actually not valid.

Leper Messiah
28-09-2017, 19:18
Maybe he is trying to say that PCars 2 is not a simulator, in his words. :D

It seems he is, hence why I did my post....chap needs to buy a dictionary.

davekojo
28-09-2017, 21:18
So rather than reading through another pointless argument I'll just say Pcars 2 is a game, like iracing is a game, like AC is a game, like Forza is a game, like Soccer is a game and guess what, real world racing is just a game.

Civic
28-09-2017, 21:53
If anything can be thought of as the CoD of sim racing it is GT Sport but I don't say that as a negative and it was by design.

It is clear that Polyphony looked at the eSports world when designing their game as an eSports platform and they looked at what games provide popular competitive online gaming and how they do that.

It is clear that Polyphony recognised certain elements from games such as CoD that might take online racing from obscurity.

The most important of these is matchmaking. And I know people might think iRacing did it first but they never did it right and the way iRacing have done it is IMO one of two primary reasons why iRacing hasn't become the success it could have and should have become.

So if you look at popular shooters they have systems in place that automatically find other people who are closest matched to you from those who are playing and place you in a match with those people.

iRacing kind of tried to do this but they failed because of a few reasons. They decided they wanted to be exclusive, they decided they don't want everyone, they only want a certain type of person and others are not welcomed. They had to compromise their matchmaking system because of their small numbers. As a result their matchmaking system doesn't work and contributes to helping prevent the service from growing.

So online competitive racing needs a platform that has a strong matchmaking system which is capable of accurately ranking people according to both skill and sportsmanship but it also need to have enough people playing that such a matchmaking system can work effectively. And it needs systems to use this matchmaking system in a way that quickly organises events. And this is what GT Sport is apparently trying to do and no one has done yet.

GT Sport have also looked at other elements of CoD and implemented those thinking they are important factors in a services popularity but I don't agree they are needed.

What the online racing world really needs IMO is a sim like PC2 to have 2 things. It needs quick match where you simply tell it you want to race online in a certain class and it puts you with people of similar skill and sportsmanship who have also been grouped by location to be put on quality servers for each group. And it needs organised Championships where people race online in a structured official championship similar to iRacing's official racing. If it has those 2 I don't think it also needs to be accessible to leagues but if it isn't accessible to leagues it does risk losing those people to another service.

I was kind of hoping PC2 was going to be the first online racing platform that gets it right. It looks like GTS will be the first racing sim that gets it right but some hardcore sim racers will claim it isn't a sim simply because it is GT while others will also not be happy that it isn't as deep of a sim as PC2.

And that is the other area where Polyphony decided to be more like CoD and it is why people will call it names. Popular shooters like CoD are popular because they are fast paced. Polyphony have recognised this and as such for their first effort they have only focused on this. Quick races in static conditions. They haven't focused their energy or resources on providing things that wouldn't be significant at this time. But they may or may not come later on a better platform. Instead they have made certain decisions they think will push racing eSports into the mainstream and used resources for things like looking better so that it is more broadcast friendly.

Nosher
28-09-2017, 22:02
its a sim - that is all.

ELAhrairah
28-09-2017, 22:38
If anything can be thought of as the CoD of sim racing it is GT Sport but I don't say that as a negative and it was by design.

It is clear that Polyphony looked at the eSports world when designing their game as an eSports platform and they looked at what games provide popular competitive online gaming and how they do that.

It is clear that Polyphony recognised certain elements from games such as CoD that might take online racing from obscurity.

The most important of these is matchmaking. And I know people might think iRacing did it first but they never did it right and the way iRacing have done it is IMO one of two primary reasons why iRacing hasn't become the success it could have and should have become.

So if you look at popular shooters they have systems in place that automatically find other people who are closest matched to you from those who are playing and place you in a match with those people.

iRacing kind of tried to do this but they failed because of a few reasons. They decided they wanted to be exclusive, they decided they don't want everyone, they only want a certain type of person and others are not welcomed. They had to compromise their matchmaking system because of their small numbers. As a result their matchmaking system doesn't work and contributes to helping prevent the service from growing.

So online competitive racing needs a platform that has a strong matchmaking system which is capable of accurately ranking people according to both skill and sportsmanship but it also need to have enough people playing that such a matchmaking system can work effectively. And it needs systems to use this matchmaking system in a way that quickly organises events. And this is what GT Sport is apparently trying to do and no one has done yet.

GT Sport have also looked at other elements of CoD and implemented those thinking they are important factors in a services popularity but I don't agree they are needed.

What the online racing world really needs IMO is a sim like PC2 to have 2 things. It needs quick match where you simply tell it you want to race online in a certain class and it puts you with people of similar skill and sportsmanship who have also been grouped by location to be put on quality servers for each group. And it needs organised Championships where people race online in a structured official championship similar to iRacing's official racing. If it has those 2 I don't think it also needs to be accessible to leagues but if it isn't accessible to leagues it does risk losing those people to another service.

I was kind of hoping PC2 was going to be the first online racing platform that gets it right. It looks like GTS will be the first racing sim that gets it right but some hardcore sim racers will claim it isn't a sim simply because it is GT while others will also not be happy that it isn't as deep of a sim as PC2.

And that is the other area where Polyphony decided to be more like CoD and it is why people will call it names. Popular shooters like CoD are popular because they are fast paced. Polyphony have recognised this and as such for their first effort they have only focused on this. Quick races in static conditions. They haven't focused their energy or resources on providing things that wouldn't be significant at this time. But they may or may not come later on a better platform. Instead they have made certain decisions they think will push racing eSports into the mainstream and used resources for things like looking better so that it is more broadcast friendly.

SMS has done even better because we can set our own criteria (based on reputation and skill): https://www.projectcarsgame.com/competitive-racing-license.html?lang=en

Civic
28-09-2017, 23:22
SMS has done even better because we can set our own criteria (based on reputation and skill): https://www.projectcarsgame.com/competitive-racing-license.html?lang=en

It's not actually better.

I should clarify I have the game and know about the ratings system.

But user created lobbies is not better than an automatic matchmaking service and the service SMS have created is terrible because there is no way of knowing what kind of lobby you are entering.

ELAhrairah
29-09-2017, 11:11
It's not actually better.

I should clarify I have the game and know about the ratings system.

But user created lobbies is not better than an automatic matchmaking service and the service SMS have created is terrible because there is no way of knowing what kind of lobby you are entering.

That’s your opinion. I prefer user created race venue’s. Just yesterday I had a great experience with it. An Lmp2 race in the Daytona road course that I set up. Practise, qualify and race. I think if we start to filter out online race participants we might end up with less to choose from. There are so many variables.
But hey I will always support any form of improvement. If SMS can get more people on those servers I wouldn’t say no..

Civic
29-09-2017, 12:40
People like me are scared to go online when you don't know what you are entering. A feature that keeps people out isn't better and I've been sim racing for many years. I was 5th in the community event last time I checked and that's on PS4.

b1sakher
29-09-2017, 13:44
Most definitely, a sim. How's that even a question.

zuotoski
29-09-2017, 13:53
Please, help me to understand: what does this lobby talking has to do with the OP? I don't mean to be rude, just don't get the point.

Sankyo
29-09-2017, 14:13
Please, help me to understand: what does this lobby talking has to do with the OP? I don't mean to be rude, just don't get the point.

Probably posted in the wrong thread :)

Raklodder
29-09-2017, 14:24
From my point of view it's simcade and there's nothing wrong with that since that's what most players expect, but it gets troublesome when it tries to portray as a sim.

vegaguy5555
29-09-2017, 17:28
Project Cars 2 must be quite something because it got so violent in AC's PC2 review that Kevin lock it. That alone is a good review for me.

But as an old guy with decades of driving experience and with a Steam library full of sims and more then one muscle car built and raced I would say PC2 drives, for the most part, the way I expect a car should. IRacing, rF2 and AC feel too icy first impression from all my hot rod friends. As far as numbers are concerned maybe they're spot on but they can fool us old guys. And that's with comparing in game cars with our real cars.

No I don't think PC2 is 100% and I don't think anyone here is making that claim. All I can say is its a nice change from all this sliding around. I can finally drive a car the way I drive my real cars.

Put what ever label on it you guts want. Just let this pld guy know so you young guys don't tease me too much.:D

Sloskimo
29-09-2017, 17:40
Project Cars 2 must be quite something because it got so violent in AC's PC2 review that Kevin lock it. That alone is a good review for me.

But as an old guy with decades of driving experience and with a Steam library full of sims and more then one muscle car built and raced I would say PC2 drives, for the most part, the way I expect a car should. IRacing, rF2 and AC feel too icy first impression from all my hot rod friends. As far as numbers are concerned maybe they're spot on but they can fool us old guys. And that's with comparing in game cars with our real cars.

No I don't think PC2 is 100% and I don't think anyone here is making that claim. All I can say is its a nice change from all this sliding around. I can finally drive a car the way I drive my real cars.

Put what ever label on it you guts want. Just let this pld guy know so you young guys don't tease me too much.:D

Real life experience is not relevant :P How dare you! The cars you were driving in real life probably were simcade cars... So, you know, it does not count!

rosko
29-09-2017, 17:45
Project Cars 2 must be quite something because it got so violent in AC's PC2 review that Kevin lock it. That alone is a good review for me.

But as an old guy with decades of driving experience and with a Steam library full of sims and more then one muscle car built and raced I would say PC2 drives, for the most part, the way I expect a car should. IRacing, rF2 and AC feel too icy first impression from all my hot rod friends. As far as numbers are concerned maybe they're spot on but they can fool us old guys. And that's with comparing in game cars with our real cars.

No I don't think PC2 is 100% and I don't think anyone here is making that claim. All I can say is its a nice change from all this sliding around. I can finally drive a car the way I drive my real cars.

Put what ever label on it you guts want. Just let this pld guy know so you young guys don't tease me too much.:D

I'm amazed aren't you normally one of the AC fans:)
IMO he locked it because it became silly rightly so, but the mods are incredibly biased towards AC as far as forum rules go, so basically anything goes as long as its dissing on pcars2 which is a bit sad imo they should be neutral regarding forum rules. Even Stefano has resorted to the lame meme of labeling anyone who likes pcars 2 as a shill.

rich1e I
29-09-2017, 17:49
If you call PC2 simcade then you're spreading fake news, that's all. You can't take such nonsense seriously and it's not even worth wasting more than one sentence about it.

Leper Messiah
29-09-2017, 19:41
From my point of view it's simcade and there's nothing wrong with that since that's what most players expect, but it gets troublesome when it tries to portray as a sim.

look up the meaning of the word "simulate".

Leper Messiah
29-09-2017, 19:44
Even Stefano has resorted to the lame meme of labeling anyone who likes pcars 2 as a shill.

What? is this true? If it is then he's gone down in my opinion.

rosko
29-09-2017, 19:49
What? is this true? If it is then he's gone down in my opinion.

Not 'everyone' but he has labeled some who regularly post info on pc2. I like Stefano, he mostly came across as a nice guy imo but yeah he's as bad as the fanboys at times.

Sankyo
29-09-2017, 19:59
I like Stefano, he mostly came across as a nice guy imo but yeah he's as bad as the fanboys at times.
I think he does that because he just has a small... team. :p

ELAhrairah
29-09-2017, 20:27
He feels threatened.

bmanic
29-09-2017, 20:42
my post was not a criticism, but a simple consideration as an hardcore sim racer, mainly involved in online legue races on pc platform. my type of player is the same as those call PC2 a "simcade", think very well about this point.

I do a quick list of features I remember, but be clear, without making any judgments about what I think is better or worse.

2013, rfactor2

-dynamic surface/rubber on track
-tyre system pressure etc etc etc
-proper heat brake, engine, etc
-engine bracking
-fully dynamic changeable weather
-fully dynamic time of day
-flag, penalty, manual pit stop, strategy change, and damage repair (by user decision)
-physics considered as an excellent comparison term.

-warmup (removed in pc2...)
-saved setup and online exchange
-support for triple monitor in separate render and vr.
-profile for different peripherals and multiple inputs accepted for the same job(present also in AC and Raceroom)
-online driver exchange
-full replay, fully working, autosaved. you can view a replay, both off/online race and start to play in the point you are.
-you have a proper server admin. server admin can manage everything from skip a session, restart weekend, to user ban to add/remove AI on the fly.
-you can have a race direction who look replays in real time and can assign penalties in real time.
-proper stand alone server, higly configurable, with graphic interface. not fake server which open steam session.
-support for skins. you enter in an online race and you have an automatic download.
-safety car
-proper oval racing with all the rules
-support plugins both server side and client side. (so i can expand features to my tastes)
-support mods.
-3 virtual rear mirror, inclination of sides are configurable like a real car.
-i can install just the content i want.
-more than 32 online players.
-per car saved settings.

and more i don't remember. (29€, 15€ on sales. no planes for rfactor3. they are improving (doing new) graphics, menus, physics and online rankings, the first sim used by mclaren for their "World's Fastest Gamer" )


so, pcars 1 has some features present in an older sim. pcars 2 added other features present in an older sim. pcars 2 still lack some features present in an older sim. and I have a strong suspicion that these are things you can not do on consoles.

out there there are also raceroom, assetto corsa, with their good things pcars doesn't has. (i don't know automobilista).


so I do not want to sponsor rfactor 2, but I just want to have (some of) these things in pc2. and I would also like to take full advantage of my PC. if consoles have no ability to do certain things the problem is not mine, but theirs. remove features to them (assetto corsa?).
to say a thing is the best out there, imho is necessary to have all the things others have, better than them, and something more. but i know, these are not marketing rules.

Looks like nobody answered you.. but surely you must have noticed that at least half of what you've typed here is actually present in pCars 2? Especially all the stuff you wrote first.

-dynamic surface/rubber on track - CHECK, in pC2
-tyre system pressure etc etc etc - CHECK, in pC2 (and much more complex than in any other sim as far as I know)
-proper heat brake, engine, etc - CHECK, in pC2 (again, more complex than in almost all other sims)
-engine bracking - CHECK, very simple basic stuff and of course in pC2
-fully dynamic changeable weather - CHECK, you know this of course
-fully dynamic time of day - CHECK of course
-flag, penalty, manual pit stop, strategy change, and damage repair (by user decision) - CHECK, all in pC2
-physics considered as an excellent comparison term. - no idea what you mean but CHECK, pC2 physics are excellent

-warmup (removed in pc2...) - MISSING.. rolling start has the full lap now though
-saved setup and online exchange - CHECK, in pC2
-support for triple monitor in separate render and vr. - CHECK, in pC2
-profile for different peripherals and multiple inputs accepted for the same job(present also in AC and Raceroom) - MISSING, was briefly available in beta version a few months before release. Hopefully will return.
-online driver exchange - MISSING for now
-full replay, fully working, autosaved. you can view a replay, both off/online race and start to play in the point you are. - Partially there but replay management/way to view replay is very archaic and definitely could be better
-you have a proper server admin. server admin can manage everything from skip a session, restart weekend, to user ban to add/remove AI on the fly. - no idea.. probably missing, dedicated server is there though
-you can have a race direction who look replays in real time and can assign penalties in real time. - Replay director CHECK but assign penalties missing
-proper stand alone server, higly configurable, with graphic interface. not fake server which open steam session. - ??? Dedicated server with tons of options is available as far as I know, runs on Linux
-support for skins. you enter in an online race and you have an automatic download. - MISSING
-safety car - MISSING
-proper oval racing with all the rules - Partially there but mostly MISSING
-support plugins both server side and client side. (so i can expand features to my tastes) - MISSING
-support mods. - Kind of is available.. but not directly or easily
-3 virtual rear mirror, inclination of sides are configurable like a real car. - MISSING
-i can install just the content i want. - ??? MISSING unless you count DLC
-more than 32 online players. - MISSING
-per car saved settings. - you mean FFB/graphics etc? Or car setup?

Sampo
29-09-2017, 20:53
-proper stand alone server, higly configurable, with graphic interface. not fake server which open steam session. - ??? Dedicated server with tons of options is available as far as I know, runs on Linux


Also for windows.

bmanic
29-09-2017, 20:54
Good question. However, AC seems to have a level or two more fidelity overall.

.. based on what? Conjecture? Have you actually looked at the telemetry output of AC and then compare it to telemetry output of pCars 2? Have you looked at how the tire heating model works in AC and then compare it to pCars 2 (heck even pCars 1 was way more complex)? Have you looked at how the brake heating model works? How the engine and turbo model works and is affected by how high over the sea the track location is?

I just don't get this "idea" that AC is somehow more complex when you can OBJECTIVELY examine the evidence and come to the exact opposite conclusion. The objective truth is that pCars simulates a lot more things, some of them to a much higher and more complex degree (tire, engine and brakes.. possibly shocks/dampers too). Yet there is this weird consensus in the simracing echo-chamber that AC is somehow "more complex".. that's just not the truth. It never was.. not even during pCars 1 release.

Having said that, it's very important to understand that a complex model is NOT always better at representing reality. Take for instance a complex mathematical and synthesized model of a PIANO. Just a few years ago the models were super complex and complicated.. yet a simple sampler could sound better (aka "look-up table"), closer to reality. This is what seems to be so difficult for people to understand and why they just base things on "feel" and then call it more "complex" when it couldn't be further from the truth.

Lawndarts
29-09-2017, 21:58
No such thing as simcade, just different philosophies in developing each racing game. AC feels tight and predicable, people think that's "real" when in fact it's not. From my limited experience in pcars 2, the Ginnetta jr is identical to a Spec Miata. It's a bit loose and steering gets very light on exit, almost no feeling... just like a real car. But unfortunately real isn't as good feeling in a simulation due to needing to compensate for things it can't simulate. I get giddy in a G Jr and others think it's lifeless and bland because they don't really know better.

So these poor sim developers are always trying to hit a moving target... go to AC forums, they hate everything else. Got to RF2 forums and they think AC is the most simcade. IRacing? It's somehow carved a small niche by never allowing "game" to be mentioned in the same sentence. It thinks it's an industrial commercial sim. But just because pcars 2 is trying to be that definitive feature complete sim we've all wanted for decades doesn't make it simcade. It's like all us sim guys got retarded over time, Stockholm syndrome about our sims and if it's too pretty or feature rich it's an arcade game?

But trying to be all things to all people is nearly impossible, but SMS are trying to do just that. As an industry insider it's quite a thing to watch.

koly
29-09-2017, 22:01
so simcade or sim ?
all answers should only have one word : simcade or sim !



EDITED
for me : SIMCADE (too mnay bugs and awfull features : no softlock, manual clutch useless)

Doge
29-09-2017, 23:21
I think he does that because he just has a small... team. :p

It´s such a shame these guys don´t have your resources, or that you don´t have their talent! A mixture of both studios would release something phenomenal. Instead we´re stuck with a fantastic driving experience that is a horrible racing platform, and a fantastic racing platform with very patchy quality when it comes to the driving experience.

rosko
29-09-2017, 23:59
It´s such a shame these guys don´t have your resources, or that you don´t have their talent! A mixture of both studios would release something phenomenal. Instead we´re stuck with a fantastic driving experience that is a horrible racing platform, and a fantastic racing platform with very patchy quality when it comes to the driving experience.

What is patchy about the driving experience?

Civic
30-09-2017, 00:06
Please, help me to understand: what does this lobby talking has to do with the OP? I don't mean to be rude, just don't get the point.

The question asks sim or simcade and in my discussion about simulation I brought up there is more than one way to think of these games as a simulation. How is it as a simulation of how the cars drive or how does it perform as a racing simulation. The discussion of lobbies stems from the discussion of it as a racing simulation and I feel that the design of the game impacts the users experience in that regard.

Do think iRacing has it's reputation based on physics or FFB? Not a chance!

iRacing's reputation as the best racing simulator in some people's opinion stems from the way it organises and presents the racing environment. At this time iRacing is still the best racing simulator without question. I don't think it is the best simulator of the driving experience but nothing challenges it yet as a simulation of racing.

PC2 has great physics, ffb, tyre model, weather and so on that all relate to the driving experience but I feel the online racing experience is severely impaired when I dare not even go online because with no way to tell what my ping is or to prepare for a race I'm too afraid to even try it. I'm not a noob and had an iRating of over 4000, I do take online sim racing pretty seriously and it is the only thing I bought PC2 for.

Lplate
30-09-2017, 00:10
Project Cars 2 simulates real life racing like Call of Duty simulates real life combat.

Just my honest opinion.

Probably a truer comparison would have been to Arma3

koly
30-09-2017, 00:11
Probably a truer comparison would have been to Arma3

AHAHAHA, i agree, call of duty is like Forza !

Civic
30-09-2017, 00:13
Looks like nobody answered you.. but surely you must have noticed that at least half of what you've typed here is actually present in pCars 2? Especially all the stuff you wrote first.[/B]

You clearly missed these parts of his post.


pcars 2 still lack some features present in an older sim

imho is necessary to have all the things others have, better than them, and something more. but i know, these are not marketing rules.

Hobbs77
30-09-2017, 00:26
It's a little of both atm......some cars feel real (sim like) and others don't (simcade like). It's mixed bag of all sorts of stuff from the ffb being all over the place to strange car physics. Hopefully future updates straightens most of the weird (simcade) stuff out. :)

Civic
30-09-2017, 00:50
It's a little of both atm......some cars feel real (sim like) and others don't (simcade like). It's mixed bag of all sorts of stuff from the ffb being all over the place to strange car physics. Hopefully future updates straightens most of the weird (simcade) stuff out. :)

What do you mean by feel?

and

What cars don't "feel" real?

DreamsKnight
30-09-2017, 01:57
Looks like nobody answered you.. but surely you must have noticed that at least half of what you've typed here is actually present in pCars 2? Especially all the stuff you wrote first.

-dynamic surface/rubber on track - CHECK, in pC2
-tyre system pressure etc etc etc - CHECK, in pC2 (and much more complex than in any other sim as far as I know)
-proper heat brake, engine, etc - CHECK, in pC2 (again, more complex than in almost all other sims)
-engine bracking - CHECK, very simple basic stuff and of course in pC2
-fully dynamic changeable weather - CHECK, you know this of course
-fully dynamic time of day - CHECK of course
-flag, penalty, manual pit stop, strategy change, and damage repair (by user decision) - CHECK, all in pC2
-physics considered as an excellent comparison term. - no idea what you mean but CHECK, pC2 physics are excellent

-warmup (removed in pc2...) - MISSING.. rolling start has the full lap now though
-saved setup and online exchange - CHECK, in pC2
-support for triple monitor in separate render and vr. - CHECK, in pC2
-profile for different peripherals and multiple inputs accepted for the same job(present also in AC and Raceroom) - MISSING, was briefly available in beta version a few months before release. Hopefully will return.
-online driver exchange - MISSING for now
-full replay, fully working, autosaved. you can view a replay, both off/online race and start to play in the point you are. - Partially there but replay management/way to view replay is very archaic and definitely could be better
-you have a proper server admin. server admin can manage everything from skip a session, restart weekend, to user ban to add/remove AI on the fly. - no idea.. probably missing, dedicated server is there though
-you can have a race direction who look replays in real time and can assign penalties in real time. - Replay director CHECK but assign penalties missing
-proper stand alone server, higly configurable, with graphic interface. not fake server which open steam session. - ??? Dedicated server with tons of options is available as far as I know, runs on Linux
-support for skins. you enter in an online race and you have an automatic download. - MISSING
-safety car - MISSING
-proper oval racing with all the rules - Partially there but mostly MISSING
-support plugins both server side and client side. (so i can expand features to my tastes) - MISSING
-support mods. - Kind of is available.. but not directly or easily
-3 virtual rear mirror, inclination of sides are configurable like a real car. - MISSING
-i can install just the content i want. - ??? MISSING unless you count DLC
-more than 32 online players. - MISSING
-per car saved settings. - you mean FFB/graphics etc? Or car setup?

i said pcars 2 still lack several things compared to an 4 year older sim, and you confirm the thing. so nothing wrong.

my thesis is simply that pcars winks to players on consoles or occasional ones, so there aren't some features.
now, about physics, who are the "socalled" expert in this argument? hardcore simracers on pc. if there aren't features present in other "true" sims, and the first video released is a joypad badly played race from external view... the "experts" what will write? or better, why this topic exists? :o

warmup are the part between qualify and race. really, if you race in a legue you want to go to bathroom and smoke a cigarette before the race. removed. the last raceroom update added them. :confused::confused:
the warmup lap instead is here only for rolling start. rfactor has it also for standing start. i hope they'll introduce this. i really don't understand why there isn't a warmup lap and a standing start. in italy we say: if you've done 30, do also 31. :eagerness:
no tyre blankets... asked several time
it's a mess no profile for peripherals. console guys don't use it. :rolleyes:
in rfactor you can have HUMAN race direction. you do an online race, and you have penalties assigned by humans who check replays in real time. from a legue point of view... wow.

but the worst part here are servers. dedicated are not dedicated. you have a program on a pc which mantain up a steam session, who join, join steam servers (and lag). without speaking how NOT user friendly it is. i know how works servers for AC, RF2 and R3E and they are on another level. by the way, the other face is the possibility to create a fast online race. this is only in pcars and it is great.


so this is a good sim? oh yes. this is the best and complete sim out there? no, absolutely.

but we have "snow" and "rallycross". so if you race a formula race in july with casual weather you can have snow. "simulation" :p

LVracerGT
30-09-2017, 05:05
Definitely simcade. I got the game and returned it after a few hours being really disappointed with the physics and the feel, learned about the Jake Spade files and everyone said it transformed the game for them. Re-bought it and I'm still not impressed. There's almost no feel of being connected to the road, even with the Jake Spade FFB even the GT3 cars everyone says are the best feeling still feel floaty. It's really difficult to predict when the rear is beginning to step out and the front tires giving way to understeer is poorly communicated.

If I was still eligible for a refund I would return it again. Hopefully SMS continues to work on the physics otherwise I will probably end up shelving this game just like PCARS1.

Kaerar
30-09-2017, 06:05
To see so much missing from the online server management setup is a bit disappointing. Was looking forward to seeing how this game runs events like Le Mans 24hr and Spa 24 for instance. Car count isn't high enough to replicate 24hrs of Nordschleife yet but that's the same for any sim currently. Not many games out there could handle ~160 full physics cars.


Definitely simcade. I got the game and returned it after a few hours being really disappointed with the physics and the feel, learned about the Jake Spade files and everyone said it transformed the game for them. Re-bought it and I'm still not impressed. There's almost no feel of being connected to the road, even with the Jake Spade FFB even the GT3 cars everyone says are the best feeling still feel floaty. It's really difficult to predict when the rear is beginning to step out and the front tires giving way to understeer is poorly communicated.

If I was still eligible for a refund I would return it again. Hopefully SMS continues to work on the physics otherwise I will probably end up shelving this game just like PCARS1.

Jump in the Clio Cup and the McLaren 720S, they really highlight what the FFB is capable of in pCARS2. Not all the cars are up to that standard and some of the GT3's are downright numb in the front end for me. If the fidelity of FFB from the Clio and 720S can be expanded to the rest of the cars in the Sim then it'll be one of the top out there for FFB feel.

Civic
30-09-2017, 06:56
Jump in the Clio Cup and the McLaren 720S, they really highlight what the FFB is capable of in pCARS2. Not all the cars are up to that standard and some of the GT3's are downright numb in the front end for me. If the fidelity of FFB from the Clio and 720S can be expanded to the rest of the cars in the Sim then it'll be one of the top out there for FFB feel.

If you are using a low powered wheel like a Logitech wheel and cars with low steering force in real life feel good in the game but those who have strong steering forces in real life feel weak in the game it indicates that the FFB is probably very accurate and set up too linear. To get the higher force cars to feel right with a Logitech would require matching the force curve to the car and track combo. You can dial in a FFB in PC2 that is more immersive and a fairly consistent with most cars but the problem is any time you compare it with the type of result you get with a more informative setting chances are you'll want to use the informative settings that require tweaking. That's why it would be nice to have the option to tweak per car.

pkcraistlin
30-09-2017, 07:41
a made-up term of derision that means nothing, used by wankers.

see? ;)


Definitely simcade. I got the game and returned it after a few hours being really disappointed with the physics and the feel, learned about the Jake Spade files and everyone said it transformed the game for them. Re-bought it and I'm still not impressed. There's almost no feel of being connected to the road, even with the Jake Spade FFB even the GT3 cars everyone says are the best feeling still feel floaty. It's really difficult to predict when the rear is beginning to step out and the front tires giving way to understeer is poorly communicated.

If I was still eligible for a refund I would return it again. Hopefully SMS continues to work on the physics otherwise I will probably end up shelving this game just like PCARS1.

rosko
30-09-2017, 07:42
see? ;)

Calm down. Really no need for that sort of language.

rosko
30-09-2017, 07:45
Calm down. Really no need for that sort of language.
Edit. Actually didn't spot the wink that your joking.

pkcraistlin
30-09-2017, 07:55
Edit. Actually didn't spot the wink that your joking.

not joking, honest opinion. it's a made-up word not in use by anyone in gaming that actually matters. a nonsensical term from idiots to describe a game they don't like; as if something that isn't a perfect simulation (in their opinion) is necessarily half arcade, because genres are a strictly binary thing. clearly most of these losers never played ridge racer, sega rally or daytona.

Leper Messiah
30-09-2017, 08:14
All I know is that anyone using the "simcade" term is immediately tagged in my head as one of "them"...i.e. insert expletive of choice.

It is such a petty term used by small minded individuals who have a complete lack of understanding beyond how their favourite game "feels" and anything not feeling exactly the same is labelled simcade. I'd love to erase the word from existence.

Leper Messiah
30-09-2017, 08:16
Not 'everyone' but he has labeled some who regularly post info on pc2. I like Stefano, he mostly came across as a nice guy imo but yeah he's as bad as the fanboys at times.

well that's it I'm then never buying AC DLC full price ever again they can shove that attitude up their arse.

Marlborofranz
30-09-2017, 08:20
Honestly, this comparison doesn't make a lot of sense since I doubt that many of us experiences some serious real world racing using real world sports cars.

The only things I did were some track-day stuff with my private road car (which is everything but a race car), some snow drifting every winter with friends and regular kart races. No other experience besides that. Whilst I never want to judge strangers on the internet, I still doubt that the majority of this forum is racing top of the notch race cars on circuits all around the world. So the opinions in this thread are very subjective and maybe also not very trustworthy since you never know if some grown man/woman is writing with a bit of real world racing experience, or a 10 years old kid that automatically believes a "sim" to be more realistic the harder it is to drive the cars virtually.

Now to my subjective opinion: I raced hellalot of simulations in the past 10 years, e.g. GTR, GTR2, Race 07, GTR Evolution, Iracing, Richard Burns Rallye, Dirt Rallye, rFactor 1 and 2, Project CARS 1 and 2, almost all Gran Turismo titles, Assetto Corsa... Before Project CARS 2 I liked Iracing the best. By far. Why? Because of the level of detail the tracks were made, laserscanned tracks and cars, the real league where you need to use your real name and the serious racing going on. It is expencive, hence only interesting for people that want serious racing rather than people that just want to have quick fun at times. But this also was the reason why I stopped recently. Whilst parts of the community remained friendly and helpful, many people started fighting and bragging about gear, physics, real world experience. Making mistakes is deadly. I had zero races in the past where people didn't start flaming and insulting on the online sessions. I attented a training sesson on Nürburgring and accidentally braked a bit too early, someone slightly hit the back of my car and immediately shouted at me and asked if I even know which pedal the brake and accelerator was. People get totally mad and the worst ist that nowdays you can't always say if this is an adult freaking out like a kid, or a kid freaking out acting like a serious race driver whereas he didn't even got his drivers license. Check the forums on iRacing and you immediately feel the need to pull some seriously big sticks out of peoples butts. And THIS is one of the big advantages of Project CARS in general.

Now, since PCars2 came out, the credibility of the handling strongly increased. We'll never be able to absoluty simulate what a real car feels like, simply because there are too many physics going on that can't be calculated all at once. Each and every part of the car bends, deforms. Maybe just a few Microns, but it does. It reacts to heat and cold temperatures, material changing size and stiffness. Various momentums going on. The amount of oxygen in the air influences the power of your engine, this is why when driving a hill climb race, your engine loses power when you climb up the hill since there is less oxygen available. Even the temperature of the air changes how your engine feels like, e.g. in Winter when it's cold outside - cold air is more compact than hot air, so supercharged and turbocharged cars can squeeze more oxygen into your engine. There are millions of fine details going on and whilst one of these calculations doesn't make the difference, but they'll add up and the sum will be noticable. In order to absolutely authentically reproduce a race car on a simulation, you would have to program and simulate even the tiniest part of that car. Each single nut and bolt. And this is impossible. No one does this, neither iRacing, nor Project CARS 2, absolutely no one. In this entire ecosystem of physical processes that are going on inside a real world car, we can only take out the most important ones, e. g. tire model, suspension, engine behavior.... and we can try to simulate them and tweak them to get something that feels 95% like the real deal. Which is what is done on all the simulations.

So to finally come to an end of my long story: Project CARS does an incredibly well job in picking out the most important physical processes taking place in real cars and tweaking them to get an authentic feel. Yes, not all tracks are laserscanned, but it's definitely more than enough to call this game a simulation. Project CARS 2 doesn't has to hide from iRacing in terms of physics. And on top of that the developers did an excetional job on simulationg heat on the surface, dynamic weather, dynamic rain puddles, marbles around the track, tracks rubbering in, car tires warming up the track where you drive, the heat then warms up surrounding areas of the race track the more you drive on it and so on.... It feels extremely good as far as I can judge by the bits of real world racing experience I got. And it is fun driving through the night on the Nordschleife, coming to the sunset, seeing parts of the tracks in the shadow still being moist of the fog whilst parts of the track that are reached by the sun start to warm up. The physics in Project CARS 2 are with no doubt an entire eco-system that is amazing to watch working while you drive a race and every time you race it's different. Then the many cars and tracks, the nice community of people who don't take online racing as serious as if their life was dependand on it... this are the small things that for me make Project CARS a better simulation than iRacing. And calling Project CARS 2 "simcade" is a serious insult in my opinion. I love each and every feature of LiveTrack 3.0, this is what I've been waiting for since 10 years. The dynamic weather, the different seasons, even the different sun angles you have on track due to the time of the year... the rain is simulated better than in any other simulation and honestly - dozens of features that are amazing and whilst they might not be 100% accurate, please keep in mind: Noone will ever be able to absolutely simulate the millions of things going on in our real world. Never ever.

Anyway, thanks towards the devs and also the people in the community who helped developing Project CARS 2 - please don't give up the incredible job you guys made, keep bringing in these awesome features such as LiveTack 3.0 since this is just many of the small details that makes Project CARS 2 the #1 sim for me as of now.

Roger Prynne
30-09-2017, 09:53
The amount of oxygen in the air influences the power of your engine, this is why when driving a hill climb race, your engine loses power when you climb up the hill since there is less oxygen available.
This is actually simulated in pCARS2/pCARS1 by the way.

Marlborofranz
30-09-2017, 10:05
This is actually simulated in pCARS2/pCARS1 by the way.

Didn't know this one... well, makes it even more amazing to know. :P

Plato99
30-09-2017, 10:25
I'm amazed aren't you normally one of the AC fans:)
IMO he locked it because it became silly rightly so, but the mods are incredibly biased towards AC as far as forum rules go, so basically anything goes as long as its dissing on pcars2 which is a bit sad imo they should be neutral regarding forum rules. Even Stefano has resorted to the lame meme of labeling anyone who likes pcars 2 as a shill.
Stefano is a berk marooned on his tiny island with his few remaining yay-sayers. He released a half-baked beta in to a market without any idea of what a console racing community expects, and got his knickers in a twist when it quickly surfaced that all was not well with his pet project. And then he spent the next twelve months berating his paying customers when they raised legit complaints or suggestions to make the product actually work. It has some great attributes for sure, the sound is amazing and the handling on the Porsches is sublime. However, every patch released breaks something else to a point where you feel they are out of their depth entirely. When things are going bad around you, a good team leader rallies his troops, gets more troops, and tackles the issues head on to find a solution. He does not resort to name calling, tantrums, finger pointing, and blaming every one else in the process. AC had its chance to make a huge mark in console sim racing, but became obsolete as a result of its own short-sightedness and botched development on September 22nd.

Hobbs77
30-09-2017, 13:21
It is such a petty term used by small minded individuals who have a complete lack of understanding beyond how their favourite game "feels" and anything not feeling exactly the same is labelled simcade. I'd love to erase the word from existence.

LOL:).....What term would you suggest we use for a game that has both real feeling aspects to it and also unreal, fake, or poorly executed feelings. For me simcade is the perfect word. It describes a game that's somewhere in between a sim and arcade...... And right now that's this game.

hkraft300
30-09-2017, 13:29
LOL:).....What term would you suggest we use for a game that has both real feeling aspects to it and also unreal, fake, or poorly executed feelings. For me simcade is the perfect word. It describes a game that's somewhere in between a sim and arcade...... And right now that's this game.

So you're telling me...
That Project Cars 2 is not sim enough for you...
Because feelings?

JanvH
30-09-2017, 15:10
I think Simcade means that you deliberately mix proper simulated/ mimicked areas from real life data/telemetry with non simulated or simplified things in order to please a certain audience. Games like Gran Turismo and Forza Motorsport are simcades, because the developers state openly that they try to use some things that are simulated or shall mimick certain areas while there are simplifid and changed up mechanics and physics to make the game work like they want it to. A simulation that has got false data or doesn't manage to translate that data into a way that seems relatable to real life circumstances is still a sim, but just incorrect in that specific area. Hence I wouldn't call PC2 a simcade, but if its Simulation is accurate is another thing one can't really prove so easily.

Hobbs77
30-09-2017, 15:12
So you're telling me...
That Project Cars 2 is not sim enough for you...
Because feelings?

Basically yes.... for me it's a poorly executed ffb game with lots of potential but atm it's broken.

Zeiss
30-09-2017, 16:29
I have to say that Pcars 2 is a technical masterpiece. Amazing graphics, amazing weather, incredible track environments, full featured. It really is something. However, I would say that a number of the cars need a development pass or two done to them in terms of physics / drive models. Overall though, very impressive driving sim and is a definite improvement over Pcars 1. I would not classify pcars 2 as 'simcade', however if you're comparing it with the likes of AC physics, you might be disappointed as almost all of AC's bread and butter is in the physics basket.

Leper Messiah
30-09-2017, 17:47
LOL:).....What term would you suggest we use for a game that has both real feeling aspects to it and also unreal, fake, or poorly executed feelings. For me simcade is the perfect word. It describes a game that's somewhere in between a sim and arcade...... And right now that's this game.

Like hkraft300 says...."feelings" are subjective the game may or may not feel right but it attempts to simulate reality. The fact that to some the "feelings" are not quite right is completely and utterly irrelevant. An Arcade game makes no real effort to simulate reality whatsoever, in fact it will seek to purposely stretch the realms of reality. You really REALLY need to get a dictionary if you find any of this confusing. Last time I checked I don't have to lob a turtle shell at the car in front to win.

so Pcars 1+2 ARE simulations 100%, even if (arguably) they get some things wrong, they tried to get them right.

Leper Messiah
30-09-2017, 17:53
Basically yes.... for me it's a poorly executed ffb game with lots of potential but atm it's broken.

oh not ffb again!!! You DO realise that ffb is a contrived bridge between the player and the wheel hardware to try and convey what the physics are doing? MOST feelings in a car can NOT be replicated via FFB in a "realistic" way..i.e. bumps in the road that move the wheels vertically etc etc, any ffb effect conveying that via the steering wheel is NOT reality. When driving over bumps in my real car even at modest speeds I feel it mainly in my arse, unless the bump knocks the steering wheel left or right.

snakehands
30-09-2017, 20:04
oh not ffb again!!! You DO realise that ffb is a contrived bridge between the player and the wheel hardware to try and convey what the physics are doing? MOST feelings in a car can NOT be replicated via FFB in a "realistic" way..i.e. bumps in the road that move the wheels vertically etc etc, any ffb effect conveying that via the steering wheel is NOT reality. When driving over bumps in my real car even at modest speeds I feel it mainly in my arse, unless the bump knocks the steering wheel left or right.

Yeah, people pick on FFB because they think it makes them look clever. Oh how wrong they are.

Hobbs77
30-09-2017, 20:19
oh not ffb again!!! You DO realise that ffb is a contrived bridge between the player and the wheel hardware to try and convey what the physics are doing? MOST feelings in a car can NOT be replicated via FFB in a "realistic" way..i.e. bumps in the road that move the wheels vertically etc etc, any ffb effect conveying that via the steering wheel is NOT reality. When driving over bumps in my real car even at modest speeds I feel it mainly in my arse, unless the bump knocks the steering wheel left or right.

Many are missing ffb in the middle of the wheel when going straight. If I lock up the brakes I basically feel nothing. Locking up the front wheels I can turn the wheel left or right with no resistance and with the wheels turn release the locked up tires and basically feel nothing. Some cars feel extremely light and floaty with hardly any ffb resistance and others feel just the opposite. Some cars feel weightless and spinout strangely as if they're on a center only axis.

So yes the ffb conveyance to how the game feels and plays is in need of attention and doesn't represent what you would expect to feel irl. IMO to be a sim you also need to replicate that part of the game properly.

Hobbs77
30-09-2017, 20:28
Yeah, people pick on FFB because they think it makes them look clever. Oh how wrong they are.

No I think the saying it goes.... only people that pick on people who pick on ffb because it makes them look cleaver.....Oh how wrong they are! :)

Bealdor
30-09-2017, 20:46
Many are missing ffb in the middle of the wheel when going straight.

What do you expect to feel on your steering wheel when driving in a straight line?
What do you feel on your own car?
I agree that some wheels could use some deadzone removal but I'm really not sure what you're expecting to feel in that case.


If I lock up the brakes I basically feel nothing. Locking up the front wheels I can turn the wheel left or right with no resistance and with the wheels turn release the locked up tires and basically feel nothing.

Same question as above. What do you expect to feel on your wheel when your brakes are locking up?
When your front tires lock up they're sliding over the asphalt without much resistance. Why should your wheel not go light in those situations?


Some cars feel extremely light and floaty with hardly any ffb resistance and others feel just the opposite.

Why would you want every car to feel similar?
Some cars (even race cars) have power steering, making their wheels extremely easy to turn.
So why would you want every car to feel like you're wrestling it around the track although all of them have different steering rack geometry, power steering, weight, wheelbase and tires?


Some cars feel weightless and spinout strangely as if they're on a center only axis.

Any specific cars you're referring to?
For the cars I tested during development and post release (which is quite a lot) I can't confirm this.

Hobbs77
30-09-2017, 22:05
What do you expect to feel on your steering wheel when driving in a straight line?
What do you feel on your own car?
I agree that some wheels could use some deadzone removal but I'm really not sure what you're expecting to feel in that case.

There's no weight, no road bumps no nothing in the middle a completely lifeless wheel!



Same question as above. What do you expect to feel on your wheel when your brakes are locking up?
When your front tires lock up they're sliding over the asphalt without much resistance. Why should your wheel not go light in those situations?

I expect to feel something other than nothing!



Why would you want every car to feel similar?
Some cars (even race cars) have power steering, making their wheels extremely easy to turn.
So why would you want every car to feel like you're wrestling it around the track although all of them have different steering rack geometry, power steering, weight, wheelbase and tires?

I don't expect extreme differences especially with the same class cars.

Any specific cars you're referring to?
For the cars I tested during development and post release (which is quite a lot) I can't confirm this.

The immersion wheel setting works once in awhile where everything feels right. No dead zone in the middle with proper wheel weight under all driving conditions and then it's gone. The autotune works for awhile and then it changes everything back to feeling like crap and all the other wheel choices including Jacks files can't get rid of the center dead zone.

I do have hope as autotune has shown me it's possible in this game.

bmanic
30-09-2017, 23:17
i said pcars 2 still lack several things compared to an 4 year older sim, and you confirm the thing. so nothing wrong.

my thesis is simply that pcars winks to players on consoles or occasional ones, so there aren't some features.
now, about physics, who are the "socalled" expert in this argument? hardcore simracers on pc. if there aren't features present in other "true" sims, and the first video released is a joypad badly played race from external view... the "experts" what will write? or better, why this topic exists? :o

warmup are the part between qualify and race. really, if you race in a legue you want to go to bathroom and smoke a cigarette before the race. removed. the last raceroom update added them. :confused::confused:
the warmup lap instead is here only for rolling start. rfactor has it also for standing start. i hope they'll introduce this. i really don't understand why there isn't a warmup lap and a standing start. in italy we say: if you've done 30, do also 31. :eagerness:
no tyre blankets... asked several time
it's a mess no profile for peripherals. console guys don't use it. :rolleyes:
in rfactor you can have HUMAN race direction. you do an online race, and you have penalties assigned by humans who check replays in real time. from a legue point of view... wow.

but the worst part here are servers. dedicated are not dedicated. you have a program on a pc which mantain up a steam session, who join, join steam servers (and lag). without speaking how NOT user friendly it is. i know how works servers for AC, RF2 and R3E and they are on another level. by the way, the other face is the possibility to create a fast online race. this is only in pcars and it is great.


so this is a good sim? oh yes. this is the best and complete sim out there? no, absolutely.

but we have "snow" and "rallycross". so if you race a formula race in july with casual weather you can have snow. "simulation" :p

Sure it lacks some things.. but then again rFactor 2 lacks TONS of things that pCars 2 has. Also, I did not confirm your findings, I actually showed you the exact opposite.. I showed you on how many points you were mistaken. Most of them were your "important" points at the top, all covered by pCars 2.

I have no idea what your agenda is but I just feel it's important to stop misinformation and misconceptions right from the get-go. People are so gullible and do not look up facts any more so it's good to fight the ignorance. That's what I'm doing.

Civic
30-09-2017, 23:21
Hobb77. You are using a Logitech wheel, it is impossible to give you a realistic one size fits all FFB experience with a G25.

This is due to the combination of a less than 3Nm wheel that is also very low resolution trying to reproduce the FFB of cars ranging from as low as 3Nm of peak force to as much as 30Nm of peak force. If you understand why this is an issue you will understand why an accurate style of FFB will represent low force cars better than higher force cars and why higher strength cars will feel weaker a lot of the time than lower strength cars.

A big problem with a one size fits all FFB system that doesn't suffer from the above on a 3Nm wheel is that every car will end up feeling more similar and people actually do interpret this as their being copy/paste physics.

If you want me to explain the mechanics of this or over why many FFB forces we have become accustomed to in games have always been faked and why they can only be fake with the wheels we are using just ask.

In PC2 you can set the FFB to be very immersive and have many of these effects which are more pronounced on certain flavours, they are mostly effected by the FX slider but how you perceive the effects is also effected by the other sliders in combination with the FX slider and the flavour of FFB.

The thing about PC2 is the FFB can be set up to be more accurate and informative but will require more constant tweaking and that is why you have those extra tools on the PC that PS4 doesn't have yet. Setting the FFB up this way will pronounce those other effects less because it is a more realistic FFB that is more accurate to the rotation forces you should expect to feel through your wheel.

The problem is that being able to back to back test these settings most people will always settle toward the realistic informative setting and realise the more fake setting is more fake.

The problem is that when a FFB system is presented in such a way that allows the end user to decide what they wish to compromise to get their best experience on their expensive but not so great toy wheels, users will feel as if the FFB is always compromised because it actually is and must be.

But most people are also quickly realising that once dialled in the FFB here is at least as good if not better than anything they have experienced and the reality of that is due to allowing the end user to make the choice for themselves about the type of FFB they prefer.

Personally I tried the Immersive type and while it was fun with the settings I came up with I ended up going back to a more Informative approach but compromising it to be more consistent.

I doubt my G29 settings on PS4 will work for for your G25 on PC mostly because I think the PC FFB has been tweaked differently to our older build on PS4 but I'll give you my settings to try. Maybe it will put you in the right area and you might be able to work it out from there.

The settings I have settled at are INFORMATIVE, G100, V50, T35, FX45, MENU 0.30. For me on the PS4 they seem to be working well for most cars I have tried since selecting them and for the first time since I haven't felt like tweaking my FFB since I started using these setting.

With my settings FFB will always feel more dead on cars capable of high force than on cars that have weaker steering in real life. But my settings are an informative style that has been compromised a little towards improving consistence and Immersion on the PS4 with this type of wheel.

Vit7
30-09-2017, 23:36
I was wondering what the average opinion is here about Pcars2 being a real (semi-pro consumer) Sim or more of a Simcade or somewhere in between?
I've seen some discussions online where people believe AC and Iracing have more Sim elements than Pcars2.
I must say I haven't played both (Iracing very briefly but I didn't like the ffb) but I was curious for your opinions on how they or any other racing game compare to Pcars2 from Sim perspective.

so what is your opinion after you play it ?

hkraft300
01-10-2017, 00:07
Many are missing ffb in the middle of the wheel when going straight. If I lock up the brakes I basically feel nothing. Locking up the front wheels I can turn the wheel left or right with no resistance and with the wheels turn release the locked up tires and basically feel nothing. Some cars feel extremely light and floaty with hardly any ffb resistance and others feel just the opposite. Some cars feel weightless and spinout strangely as if they're on a center only axis.

Really? Is this your experience in pcars2 ffb?
That's odd...
Because it sounds exactly like how cars feel in real life...:glee:



So yes the ffb conveyance to how the game feels and plays is in need of attention and doesn't represent what you would expect to feel irl. ....

Wait... what?

So are you expecting the wheel to feel like real life steering wheel or Asetto Corsa?

ELAhrairah
01-10-2017, 00:19
so what is your opinion after you play it ?



In many aspects a SIM. The game mechanics are coded in such a way to simulate what would happen in the real world. There is a refined correlation between: a weather system, the air, the surface and the tire model. So behind its curtains it is 100 % simulator. And all of this is affected directly by how you tune a car which ads positive complexity to the game: +1


Game play: not a complete SIM. But it tries. Maybe it is because they ran out of memory, resources or just didn’t have enough time. Maybe some of the game play is licensed and couldn’t be bought. Fe: Formula One qualification style. I miss that because it is such an excellent format.
There aren’t any pace cars on the ovals, and more of these things.


Personal experience: well I don’t drive a race car and I have never driven a Ferrari. What the hell would I know?


I like the tires. They work for me. You push hard and you’ll get them warm. You take it easy and avoid sliding and hitting those kerbs and they’ll last longer. Good job.


I like the aesthetics. I like it how day turns into this blueish dusk at Le Mans. And then complete dark. They nailed it on that part. I hope that the Michelin timing sign on the straight will show real time race information like we see in real during a Le Mans race. :)


I like the sound. It’s 10/10. I must say I have played some but seen and heard many recent racing games. Non of them sound as good as this game. This game sets a new standard.


I like the online competition (when I don’t get disconnected). It still needs some work but the basics are good.


To conclude: when I fire up the game, take a seat behind the wheel and drive my laps around the track, I feel engaged in something real. Or I wouldn’t be sweating.

Vit7
01-10-2017, 00:27
To conclude: when I fire up the game, take a seat behind the wheel and drive my laps around the track, I feel engaged in something real. Or I wouldn’t be sweating.

You Answered Your Own Question:) You can even update threat topic... just saying.

ELAhrairah
01-10-2017, 00:34
You Answered Your Own Question:) You can even update threat topic... just saying.

I was curious for other peoples opinion and even the people who do not completely agree that Pcars2 is a SIM can have something usefull to say. The best information is unfiltered.

Hobbs77
01-10-2017, 00:57
Really? Is this your experience in pcars2 ffb?
That's odd...
Because it sounds exactly like how cars feel in real life...



Wait... what?

So are you expecting the wheel to feel like real life steering wheel or Asetto Corsa?

When locking up the brakes I get no difference in wheel sensations and is a completely lifeless wheel as it is when going straight. A lifeless dead wheel in the center is not like driving a real car. And no I'm not a fan of AC either. My background in pc gaming started back in 2006 with GTR, then GTR2 and all the other SimBin titles that followed. rFactor and all the dirt series except for dirt 4. RBR.

I'm hoping that a future update fixes some of the issues in this game as it sometime feel right with autotune but then disappears and I'm not the only one having this problem.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?53400-G25-and-autotune

hkraft300
01-10-2017, 01:13
When locking up the brakes I get no difference in wheel sensations and is a completely lifeless wheel as it is when going straight. A lifeless dead wheel in the center is not like driving a real car. And no I'm not a fan of AC either. My background in pc gaming started back in 2006 with GTR, then GTR2 and all the other SimBin titles that followed. rFactor and all the dirt series except for dirt 4. RBR.

I'm hoping that a future update fixes some of the issues in this game as it sometime feel right with autotune but then disappears and I'm not the only one having this problem.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?53400-G25-and-autotune

Drive something at Algarve. On some of the brake zones the car is loaded uneven and individual or both wheels lock. I can definitely feel it in my settings, but I'm on Raw. Immersive/informative might be drowning out some Raw signals.
And yes, the wheel does go light or pull to the side when you're locking.
Depending on the steering and suspension geometry of the car different cars feel different with ffb. Some feel numb and disconnected (TS020), some cars feel super chatty (F50GT).

PS Logitech wheels aren't great but they'll last forever. They have too much drag and it's hard to feel the wheel going "light". It's subtle but it's there.

Leper Messiah
01-10-2017, 08:00
Many are missing ffb in the middle of the wheel when going straight. If I lock up the brakes I basically feel nothing. Locking up the front wheels I can turn the wheel left or right with no resistance and with the wheels turn release the locked up tires and basically feel nothing. Some cars feel extremely light and floaty with hardly any ffb resistance and others feel just the opposite. Some cars feel weightless and spinout strangely as if they're on a center only axis.

So yes the ffb conveyance to how the game feels and plays is in need of attention and doesn't represent what you would expect to feel irl. IMO to be a sim you also need to replicate that part of the game properly.

I (and many others) do NOT get the problems you're having, this is (I believe) a specific issue with certain wheel manufacturers, now yes SMS can be chastised for not getting these issues ironed out, but once again it has no bearing whatsoever on how "real" or "siml" the game is.

So to reiterate I feel the ffb just fine, many others feel the ffb just fine, so all the pieces of the "reality" jigsaw are there, just that "some" are not getting all the pieces. Once again just because "some" are not getting all the pieces does not mean the game is not a sim.

Leper Messiah
01-10-2017, 08:04
No I think the saying it goes.... only people that pick on people who pick on ffb because it makes them look cleaver.....Oh how wrong they are! :)

no that doesn't work because those picking on ffb are wrong, that is not opinion it is fact, the ffb is there, just not for some.

Leper Messiah
01-10-2017, 08:07
The immersion wheel setting works once in awhile where everything feels right. No dead zone in the middle with proper wheel weight under all driving conditions and then it's gone. The autotune works for awhile and then it changes everything back to feeling like crap and all the other wheel choices including Jacks files can't get rid of the center dead zone.

I do have hope as autotune has shown me it's possible in this game.

Ok so you'll get a lot more support and sympathy with posts like this, we all understand how frustrating it is to have something go wrong in a game we want to play that affects our experience, but nothing justifies the ...cade tag. You can see that the underlying ffb and physics are solid when it works for you. I sincerely hope that all the ffb issues that have arisen can be ironed out for you and you can enjoy the ffb as much as I am.

Leper Messiah
01-10-2017, 08:15
Game play: not a complete SIM. But it tries. Maybe it is because they ran out of memory, resources or just didn’t have enough time. Maybe some of the game play is licensed and couldn’t be bought. Fe: Formula One qualification style. I miss that because it is such an excellent format.


Pcars hasn't really got a full license for a motorsport event (I have no idea what's going on with indycars because if it was full we'd have all the tracks etc....I think it's "just" the Indianapolis event that licensed). So we don't get the full experience, which I agree is a shame. Sometimes I wish SMS would sort of go the R3E route, license a series in it's entirety and use the latest madness and livetrack engine to give us that series (please god I wish for Oz V8s, Super GT, BTCC, WEC!!!) I would gladly pay full price for FULL (all tracks, cars and rules) games based on those series.

Marlborofranz
02-10-2017, 08:29
This is actually simulated in pCARS2/pCARS1 by the way.

Roger, one question that just came to my mind about the simulated engine power in regards of oxygen in the air: Is Project CARS 2 using the average sea level of a particular track, or is it actually changing when you drive up a hill?

For example on the Nordschleife we have an elevation of 300 meters. If you drive up the entire Nordschleife in Project CARS 2, will this also influence the engine power? Or will it stay the same on the entire Nordschleife and just varies from track to track?

I am not sure about how this is calculated, but I remember Walter Röhrl saying that when climbing up the 1400 meters of Pikes Peak his engine decreases power from 600 HP to 400 HP due to the lack of oxigen on that elevation level. Assuming the "Oxygen-falloff" in the air is constant, this means that when climbing 300 meters on the Nordschleife you would loose around 7 or 8 percent of your engine power... Not sure if this is really noticable but would actually be a very cool feature

Tepp
02-10-2017, 09:44
Let's look at the roots:

Arcade: is a game which emulates the behavior of the objects and represent it in a simplified way (intentionally). Example: you drive over the bump, the car jumps. Simple emulation: Bump>Formula>Jump. By adjusting the formula you can tune how the object behaves. Realism is not required here, you can jump, rotate in the air and land on the wheels, it's fun.

Simulator: tries to simulate deeply all the internal components, their behavior, which then leads to a behavior of the object itself. The same example: you drive over the bump, the car jumps. Complex simulation: weight, tyre flex, tyre pressure, suspension, dampers. Each component is simulated in "realistic" way and affects how the object behaves. Changing the parameters of each component affects the behavior of the object in a different way. Usually it's intended to be as realistic as possible. The component settings even have the same parameters as real counterparts.

So now we can derive the "Simcade" term: It's a half-arcade half-simulator, obviously. It tries to get the realistic look/feel in a simplified manner. It can simulate one things but simplify others.

However, we should take into account the level of technology at the current moment, so 20-year old simulator will look like an arcade (simcade) today. Even at current level of technology we have to simplify some things.

Conclusion:

To determine if one or another title is a sim, arcade or "simcade", we have to compare it to others and to current level of technology. The PC2 has introduced many revolutionary things that many others don't have at the moment. It really raises the bar in simulation.

hkraft300
02-10-2017, 12:52
Roger, one question that just came to my mind about the simulated engine power in regards of oxygen in the air: Is Project CARS 2 using the average sea level of a particular track, or is it actually changing when you drive up a hill?


It's changing.
The power of an NA car is greater at the bottom of eu Rouge than at the top. Try it with the telemetry screen on (power output is on the bottom right corner).
The power output is affected by the air pressure at that elevation, at every track in the game.

Roger Prynne
02-10-2017, 13:20
^ Thanks buddy.

Kebabfelix
02-10-2017, 13:46
Youtube comments have started to switch, a lot of hardcore simmers love the handling model and FFB and looks like all the sheeps are changing opinions.

Hopefully we can grow the playerbase even further! :)

hkraft300
02-10-2017, 13:53
^ Thanks buddy.

No problem.
It's one of the many nerdy little details about pcars that lured me here :o

Kaerar
02-10-2017, 14:57
Youtube comments have started to switch, a lot of hardcore simmers love the handling model and FFB and looks like all the sheeps are changing opinions.

Hopefully we can grow the playerbase even further! :)

At least some of us had the forethought to measure it on it's merit's not it's history.

TBH it's a great game. Would like to see some more support for the simulation of events and series, but until that happens I can still run my series on iRacing and just have some fun here.

DreamsKnight
02-10-2017, 15:25
Sure it lacks some things.. but then again rFactor 2 lacks TONS of things that pCars 2 has. Also, I did not confirm your findings, I actually showed you the exact opposite.. I showed you on how many points you were mistaken. Most of them were your "important" points at the top, all covered by pCars 2.

I have no idea what your agenda is but I just feel it's important to stop misinformation and misconceptions right from the get-go. People are so gullible and do not look up facts any more so it's good to fight the ignorance. That's what I'm doing.

i think is important to understand what other people write: you quoted my answer to the ian's question at my previous statement.

ian wrote pcars 2 has more stuff than any other sim in the market, i've been pointing out that in pcars 2 there is nothing new that it was not present in something older 4 years, and still missing several things rfactor 2 has. mine is not misinformation, i writed things like they are. the list was referred ONLY to rfactor2. my statement is not a critique, cause i haven't expressed any judgements on the single feature listed i think is better here or there, was not my point. and by the way, i prefer pcars 2.

instead, I have expressed only a personal opinion, and I think I can do that, saying (IMHO) the reason why these things are missing is related to the facts that pcars want to be on consoles and totally identical. so (IMHO) many of these things i'd like to have here, on consoles can't be developed or have no reason to exist. and for some of them confirmation exists (car on tracks? liveries? :rolleyes: )

now if you want to do a list what rfactor2 has and pcars not, i'll read it with pleasure.

JC-Maverick
03-10-2017, 19:12
Outstanding piece of computer engineering!! Started with GTR2 about 10 years ago, moved (and still....) to iRacing and absolutely love AC. Without a doubt AC my fav sim until this "thing" came along 2 weeks ago!!! I am an avid track day enthusiast ( Autobahn in Chicago ) and VR simracer. You could say I am a Professional Pretend Racecar Driver. I can see myself going between the 2 sims AC and pCars2; however, considering dropping iRacing after 8 years and hundreds invested. pCars2 is truly a SIM with an exceptional feel for weight distribution.
Now if I can just figure out the best FFB setting for my CSW 2.5!!

AndysonofBob
03-10-2017, 19:50
Well I don't think pCars2 is simcade.

I am not a pro.
I love AC.

I have played and enjoyed a range of other racers: Forza, GTA, Dirt, Grid, N4S etc.

pCars2 is in a whole other league to that last lot. It occupies Sim Island with the likes of AC and super expensive buddies where only the most pedantic with super expensive rigs can REALLY tell the difference. Dirt and Forza etc are on the neighbouring Simcade Ilse. GTA and N4S etc are on the distant shores, where there-be-monsters.

pCars2 is not simcade!

JC-Maverick
03-10-2017, 20:04
:yes:

vegaguy5555
03-10-2017, 21:29
I'm a sim fan and car fan. I said it was a nice change. I like them all. I just don't like to hear some guys saying ridiculous things about PC2 or any of the rest really!

Edit:
I just wanted to add that I decided to jump into rF2 and get a dose of reality but I didn't slide through the first corner or any of them like I thought I was. In fact I was pleasantly surprised and had a good lap around the Nordschleife pushing it as hard as I could. The car held the corners the way I was use to in PC2. The only difference is PC2 is more sensitive to wheel input. When coming back to I had be careful not to let the wheel shake to much bouncing off the curbs or I would loose it.

I say it's a sim guys!:D

If you don't believe me take rF2 out for a drive. If you don't have it I think it's on sale. They are about to do a big rain update. Looks pretty good.

vegaguy5555
06-10-2017, 20:17
I kinda see your point.

I react to PC2 and get a reasonable response that leads to another reaction to the point it feels like I driving a real car. That makes it a real sim for me.

In a few years there will be something more accurate and so on.

Great aviator by the way!!:rolleyes:

msmith792
06-10-2017, 20:29
PCars2 is sim. They're really pushing the boundaries with the first package that has weather, track dynamics, ffb and a car/track list that most can only dream of. There are definitely areas for improvement (VR and the AI are the big ones to me), but it's far more sim than simcade to me.

Bultaco85
09-10-2017, 10:46
Well i´m going to be unpolite.

As someone that LOVES Assetto Corsa i can say that anyone that calls pCARS2 a simcade is stupid and should get medical attention.
pCARS 2 is a simulator, full stop. It´s not simcade and the quantity of things SMS were able to put in the game are amazing.

Now, the game has issues, but it just launched now, people should remember ther state of assetto corsa when it was lauched, specially on console.

Cheers.

Janneman60
09-10-2017, 11:03
Well i´m going to be unpolite.

As someone that LOVES Assetto Corsa i can say that anyone that calls pCARS2 a simcade is stupid and should get medical attention.
pCARS 2 is a simulator, full stop. It´s not simcade and the quantity of things SMS were able to put in the game are amazing.

Now, the game has issues, but it just launched now, people should remember ther state of assetto corsa when it was lauched, specially on console.

Cheers.

Stating all others with a different opinion is mindsick and bringing your opinion as THE holy truth... No you are not very polite...

Bultaco85
09-10-2017, 11:11
Completely agree with everything.

Rodders
09-10-2017, 12:51
It's a Sim.

GRID AS is what I would call arcade but it's all relative.

Put it this way I came from AMS which is very much a sim and IMHO has the best FFB I'd felt in any racing game. After playing it PCars 1 felt like an arcade game. But PCars 2 very often equals it for feel and is only beaten by the Formula Ultimate in AMS (which is the single best sim car I've ever driven). I'm shocked at how good PCars 2 feels, sounds and plays. Feels more of a sim than PCars 1 for sure.

Stephen220378
09-10-2017, 13:19
It's a sim without a doubt.

Arcade = Need For Speed, Driveclub, Midnight Club

Simcade = Gran Turismo, Forza Motorsport, GRID, Dirt 4

Sim = Project Cars, Assetto Corsa, Dirt Rally and the multitude of other PC sims

Bultaco85
09-10-2017, 13:21
Stating all others with a different opinion is mindsick and bringing your opinion as THE holy truth... No you are not very polite...


What part of "i´m going to be unpolite" didn´t you get?

Bultaco85
09-10-2017, 13:24
Also you and a lot of people should understand that "having an opinion" is not the same as having a valid argument.
PCARS2 has flaw, has things that are not great, but it is NOT arcade, so i don´t really care about opinions, based on facts (things it simulates) it is a simulator.

zuotoski
09-10-2017, 13:24
Oh, man... how hard it is to make people understand that "simcade" doesn't exits. It is a word that has no logic. It is so frustrating. :mad:

mass control
09-10-2017, 13:29
I would say if want a real sim then get on the track for real as i think that project cars 2 does a good job to feel to racing than any other games out there.Yes AI does need work to get it even closer.

Stephen220378
09-10-2017, 13:36
It does exist and in other game genres as well.

Madhun67
09-10-2017, 13:37
actually all driving "games" are sims..........................just some to a lot more extent than others ;)

Janneman60
09-10-2017, 13:52
What part of "i´m going to be unpolite" didn´t you get?

I don't know. But maybe I had to start with "sarcastic mode on" ��

zuotoski
09-10-2017, 14:07
It does exist and in other game genres as well.

OK, I guess that you reffering to the "simcade" word. Show me what game uses this as type in its official home page.