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honespc
26-09-2017, 19:48
Penalizing the car in the front too instead of the crasher behind only(add to this that the crasher will be fine and on road after making you spin and crash) has been the most sensible idea ever. Thanks to it I have demoted today like almost two letters and lose a lot of points as well, by just getting rammed from behind and the car destroyed afterwards. Not even playing fair on the track and avoiding all crashes as I always do has made even a difference.

Kudos to the brains behind the decision of punishing the innocent as well. Today I've played six races, rammed from behind in four of them continuously (leading to crash and retiring from race on three of them, while the crashers just continue on the track so happy after screwing you, the usual you know), and I've seen my licence "demoted" again from F and 1567 points to U1430. Yesterday was the same.

Bravooo for the ideology behind the penalty system!, Bravo SMS!, How on Earth can the vehicle in front be responsible for some other hitting from the back, 1% of the times?, just a couple of idiots who break on purpose?, the 2% perhaps then?.

God this system of yours is going to put entire legions of fair good drivers to misery in a couple of weeks when they continue to get lol'd from behind again, and again and over again from the ones who don't even care about their own rating.

iracing blahblah has the same blah bull****!. You could have done it the right way by always punishing the car behind, 99% of the times responsible for wrecks and overall mayhem.

******* rant ended

Charger
26-09-2017, 20:18
You know sometimes you gotta ask yourself a question 'Is it me?'

The reason I say this is because I play online lobbies only and so do our club and our ratings are just going up despite having crashers in a lot, if you get hit up the arse the impact is more on the one hitting you, to lose a safety rating you must actually be unsafe yourself and to lose points means you are not beating people of higher points than yourself.

That's a lot of points to lose in a session, I am now a C rating and have hovered over 1560 down to 1530 after a bad session of being hit but I lost points not safety.

Ask yourself this, do you over brake, do you cut people off or take weird lines, do you retaliate, are you fast enough to stay out of peoples way?

If you are safe and quick enough over time that rating will get better and the points will rise, if it doesn't then it is you that is doing something wrong.

I personally think the safety rating is one of the best inclusions in this game, we used Hamsterstew before and I can tell you eventually if you get up the ratings and then lock the room to a min level say a 'C' rating, you will not even be in the same races as those rammers, patience is the key.

cpcdem
26-09-2017, 20:56
I think you just need to be patient and self disciplined in the first couple weeks. When you see someone charging from behind and realize they will probably not make it to brake in time, just move out of the way yourself. You may lose a position, but very likely they will crash someone else or go completely of the road, so you'll get it back.

Also when you see people going 3 or even 4 wide, back off. Yes again you will lose position(s), but again most probably they will crash and if damaged is enabled, their cars will be in bad shape and you will be very likely be able to pass them again easily.

Even if you don't, IMO it's not a big problem finishing some races in a lower place that you could have achieved otherwise, just for a week or so. After some time, all those wreckers will be still at U or F rankings and you will be way up. Lobbies will be requiring min D or C or better rating, you will not be finding wreckers there, or at least that's the idea.

So far it seems to me that it will work nicely, but we will tell for sure after 2 weeks. Anyway, that's just my view of things, but following the above I have a B grade so far.

Crokas
26-09-2017, 20:59
Coming into the first corner, trying to be careful not to ramming and spinning one o two cars in front, everything goes fine, we almost did it nicely.. And then BOOM some crazy guy came from behind using no brake, rammed me twice and vualia - i have been penalized for what? I am on OP side as it is strange to be punished for driving fair.

Bealdor
26-09-2017, 21:10
Do you know why SMS and also iRacing are always punishing all cars that are involved in an accident?
Because there's no reliable way to identify the one who's responsible for the crash.

You say that only 1% or 2% are brake testing their opponents but you have to keep in mind that as soon as there's a way to only punish one of the cars, griefers WILL find a way to exploit the system and ruin other player's ratings on purpose.

MortICi
26-09-2017, 21:14
Coming into the first corner, trying to be careful not to ramming and spinning one o two cars in front, everything goes fine, we almost did it nicely.. And then BOOM some crazy guy came from behind using no brake, rammed me twice and vualia - i have been penalized for what? I am on OP side as it is strange to be punished for driving fair.

Watch the Singapore GP, to demand that some online game (with latency between drivers) to somehow be cleaner and more fair is absurd. Its a video game, you win some you loose some. You can't be #1 all the time and you can't come out unharmed all the time. Just do your best, be both an offensive driver and a defensive driver. Scan ahead pay attention to other drivers movements. Plan your escape route. You are not untouchable.

Its not the end of the world, you can just reset the car and keep driving...

Some people take this stuff way to serious and way to personal, just have some fun.

I should upload some of my replays i had insane crashes that i lost my shit laughing, some where i almost made it out on unharmed, others where i should be ded. Yes ded.

ironik
26-09-2017, 21:33
As I've already said, there is no way to be sure who is at fault. Saying that the guy behind is always wrong is not true in racing
Either way, the system can't be fair as there is no way for a program to know who is the wrecker.
That's why it's 50/50.
Now if you're a fair driver, you may get wrecked once or twice in a race but the actual wrecker will have much more penalties.

The best way to improve your rating is to start at the back and drive cautiously.
As soon as you reach the F rank, stop playing in U lobbies.

Or, you can play in unranked lobbies if you prefer. You won't be penalized at all.

fostrike
26-09-2017, 23:12
The rating system is just rubbish, I'm so angry right now.
You do your best to keep a clean race and couple of morons destroy all your effort in just half lap.
A guy just hit me every 100 meter in a formation lap, and I could do nothing to avoid that, just stay there and accumulate warnings.
This in not a Slight Mad, this is a complete madness.

cpcdem
26-09-2017, 23:49
We just now had a race in Hockenheim, public lobby with "E" rating and some 20 drivers. Fantastically clean racing, maybe 2 or 3 contacts between anybody at max.

I was midfield all the time, had many good fights and _zero_ bumps or rams. First time I've had such an adrenaline rush race and felt so great afterwards, even finishing 7th.

At the end of the race, a couple of us upgraded to "A" rank, several others were at B and C.

Let the system do it's thing for a few more days or weeks, then join only ranked lobbies and you will all see how clean racing can be, I am now very positive about this. Just be a little patient.

Edit: it was a D1500 actually. Next race, RBR, got pole, but was passed in first corner by 2 guys, amazing battle to the end. Need some time to recover now.
In any case, everybody in the lobby saying "very good race guys" after the race says something..

UK-PORGZ
27-09-2017, 02:02
I was on Indianapolis Motorspeedway with 13 other racers. P3 on the Grid, then in the first three laps I get rammed off five times!! Manage to crawl back to P5 but when the race has finished my rank was lowered to U!!! So basically the innocent one gets punished.

Charger
27-09-2017, 02:17
We just now had a race in Hockenheim, public lobby with "E" rating and some 20 drivers. Fantastically clean racing, maybe 2 or 3 contacts between anybody at max.

I was midfield all the time, had many good fights and _zero_ bumps or rams. First time I've had such an adrenaline rush race and felt so great afterwards, even finishing 7th.

At the end of the race, a couple of us upgraded to "A" rank, several others were at B and C.

Let the system do it's thing for a few more days or weeks, then join only ranked lobbies and you will all see how clean racing can be, I am now very positive about this. Just be a little patient.

Edit: it was a D1500 actually. Next race, RBR, got pole, but was passed in first corner by 2 guys, amazing battle to the end. Need some time to recover now.
In any case, everybody in the lobby saying "very good race guys" after the race says something..

Think you were in with us.

I just went from C to A in one night didn't win a race but had some cracking side by side stuff. still over 1500 so I'm holding my own.

If you build it they will come :-)

cpcdem
27-09-2017, 02:29
Think you were in with us.

I just went from C to A in one night didn't win a race but had some cracking side by side stuff. still over 1500 so I'm holding my own.

If you build it they will come :-)

Yeah! It was a lobby with many "RWB" guys, right? Sorry if I spelled that badly! :)
Next races where a blast as well, too bad you then moved to some tracks that I don't know at all, so I left in order to avoid problems to you with my driving. But the rest were fantastic podium fights.

I can really understand how people can be very frustrated, when they racing in lobbies with rammers, in the beginning I had a lot of that, too. My advice is guys be patient, don't worry about position for some races, even if that means you finish last. Just make sure you drive clean and not others bump you either, until you rank up the safety ranking so you can join the safe lobbies. Completely ignore the "performance" ranking (the number) for now, let it go bottom down, mine did go sometime ago as well to the bottom. You can work on raising it once you're in clean racing lobbies.

Charger
27-09-2017, 02:33
Yeah exactly, be safe and your player rating will come up also, CPC we are open to track selection, if you want a track shout out, we are not a dictatorship ;-))

Daynja
27-09-2017, 02:39
Yeah! It was a lobby with many "RWB" guys, right? Sorry if I spelled that badly! :)
Next races where a blast as well, too bad you then moved to some tracks that I don't know at all, so I left in order to avoid problems to you with my driving. But the rest were fantastic podium fights.

I can really understand how people can be very frustrated, when they racing in lobbies with rammers, in the beginning I had a lot of that, too. My advice is guys be patient, don't worry about position for some races, even if that means you finish last. Just make sure you drive clean and not others bump you either, until you rank up the safety ranking so you can join the safe lobbies. Completely ignore the "performance" ranking (the number) for now, let it go bottom down, mine did go sometime ago as well to the bottom. You can work on raising it once you're in clean racing lobbies.


Pop on anytime m8. We appreciate decent drivers joining us for some intense and clean racing. We had 3 people reach A rating tonight whom started the night on a range of C - B, most of RWB.

cpcdem
27-09-2017, 02:43
Pop on anytime m8. We appreciate decent drivers joining us for some intense and clean racing. We had 3 people reach A rating tonight whom started the night on a range of C - B, most of RWB.

Thanks guys, will do! It was extremely enjoyable.

Charger
27-09-2017, 02:59
I have a video of it, you got some pressure in the last lap on Le Mans, well held.

Charger
27-09-2017, 03:23
Quick shot from Le Mans, up my hole but it didn't cause an accident, this is how close you can get lol ;l-)

240863

cpcdem
27-09-2017, 03:37
I have a video of it, you got some pressure in the last lap on Le Mans, well held.

Thanks! It was quite a fight with 2-3 of you guys during different stages of the race, even if only for (mainly defending the) positions around 7-9.
In the other tracks I was fighting for the wins, but in Le Mans I was far back, I suspect it has to do with tuning, wings etc, because so far I have not dealt with it at all, waiting to start tuning when the system gets a bit more polish to become more straightforward. Well, admittedly another less convenient explanation is that I am not good enough at that track :)

honespc
27-09-2017, 05:33
You know sometimes you gotta ask yourself a question 'Is it me?'No man it's not me. It's those who can't find them brake pedals you know


Ask yourself this, do you over brake, do you cut people off or take weird lines, do you retaliate, are you fast enough to stay out of peoples way?I didn't begin playing racing games yesterday. I know what I'm doing.


If you are safe and quick enough over time that rating will get better and the points will rise, if it doesn't then it is you that is doing something wrong.No, not doing something wrong. What's happening at least for two days in a row is what I described in the main post.

Man, it feels as If you were trying to blame the one driving properly instead of the crasher and all just to defend the system rating. If you like it you're all good of course; sure it also has its good things, but the fact it punishes the car in the front too is too big of a flaw.

Anyway, and according to the way you see it..., you just race with friends, or in a league or something right?, yah hence your rating is going up so fast, and everything seems so fine in a sea of happiness. Go public lobbies and you will see how nice your beloved system works until you can rank up so peacefully with friends on clean lobbies. You will probably find your rank either demoting or at the very least trembling after each race.

edit:

sorry bro hadn't seen your post:)


As I've already said, there is no way to be sure who is at fault. Saying that the guy behind is always wrong is not true in racing99% of the times will be the guy behind and trying to overtake, or even easier, the guy behind who will use you as his braking point.

God wouldn't have been a lot easier and fair going that way given it's the usual situation almost always?, that's the point I'm trying to make. Punishing the car in the front leads only to more unfairness and frustration of many clean drivers.

By punishing the car behind that is trying to overtake, in other one that has to be cautious at the very least while his car remains behind the one in the front it's obviously the way safer and more fair philosophy to apply, because in most cases the system will not go wrong by punishing him, only.

Seriously, am I the only one who see it that way?, sorry but I can't just get to understand the reasoning of punishing the car in the front at all situations as well. In real life we have humans to discern what happened, but here in a videogame, we know that reality is totally different, and the car in the back will 99% of the times be the nasty one.

shiberu
27-09-2017, 05:49
Well, when I was playing on Spa yesterday, I was quite close to the car infront of me and preparing for an overtake at the chicane after Eau Rouge. The car infront spun 90 degrees on the latter half of the chicane and I had no where to go. Ended up clipping him, survived it and the game told me to return the place to him. As he was too far back trying to recover, I ended up getting served with a drive thru penalty.

So yeah, the guy behind, this time as the innocent one, got served quite harshly.

Shepard2603
27-09-2017, 05:52
No man it's not me. It's those who can't find them brake pedals you know

I didn't begin playing racing games yesterday. I know what I'm doing.

No, not doing something wrong. What's happening at least for two days in a row is what I described in the main post.

Man, it feels as If you were trying to blame the one driving properly instead of the crasher and all just to defend the system rating. If you like it you're all good of course; sure it also has its good things, but the fact it punishes the car in the front too is too big of a flaw.

Anyway, and according to the way you see it..., you just race with friends, or in a league or something right?, yah hence your rating is going up so fast, and everything seems so fine in a sea of happiness. Go public lobbies and you will see how nice your beloved system works until you can rank up so peacefully with friends on clean lobbies. You will probably find your rank either demoting or at the very least trembling after each race.

edit:

sorry bro hadn't seen your post:D

99% of the times will be the guy behind and trying to overtake, or even easier, the guy behind who will use you as his braking point.

God wouldn't have been a lot easier and fairt going that way given it's the usual situation almost always?, that's the point I'm trying to make. Punishing the car in the front leads only to more unfairness and frustration of many clean drivers.

By punishing the car behind that is trying to overtake, in other one that has to be cautious at the very least while his car remains behind the one in the front it's obviously the way safer and more fair philosophy to apply, because in most cases It will do the right thing.

Seriously, am I the only one who see it that way?, sorry but I can't just get to understand the reasoning of punishing the car in the front at all situations as well. In real life we have humans to discern what happened, but here, in a videogame,, you know that reality is totally different, and the car in the back will 99% of the times be the nasty one.
I see your point but I would suggest you just can you urge-to-win for a moment and take the given advice seriously. Race from the back, race safe and clean, stay out of trouble and your safety ranking will go up by itself. Later on you can join public lobbies with like-minded people (rating F or higher). And there you go.

honespc
27-09-2017, 06:03
ok man ok I'll try not to win any race then. Anyway I have done that already, and also got wrecked. You know I've said that in the main post too, hence I'm so upset.

It will sure make for the most weird attitude in a competitive racing game I have ever seen, but oh well that at least will lead me outside the lower ranked lobbies, was it?

I don't get it, seriously. A videogame is not like real life. In a videogame the guy behind is responsible for the wreck in most situations given the nature of videogames and the folks acting like this while behind the internet.

In real life we can discern. Even then the car overtaking has to always be the cautious one as we could have it no other way. In a videogame, the guy behind should hold responsibility for everything that may go wrong. The system would be wayy more fair going down this route. Why?, because we know what usually happens with the guy in the back in racing game. Needs no further explanation imho.

Bealdor
27-09-2017, 06:11
In a videogame the guy behind is responsible for the wreck in most situations given the nature of videogames and the folks acting like this while behind the internet.

I'm going to repeat myself...


...as soon as there's a way to only punish one of the cars, griefers WILL find a way to exploit the system and ruin other player's ratings on purpose.

Think about it, iRacing is on the market since 2008 now and most people would agree that they're the benchmark in competitive online racing.
Why do you think are they also using this kind of penalty system?

cpcdem
27-09-2017, 06:14
A lot of people have said it already, but just think about it again, if the game always penalized only the guys who hits from behind and you are a wrecker who enjoys destroying other people's fun, what would you do? It's easy answer isn't it? As soon as anybody was behind you, you would floor the brake pedal..this is why what you propose makes sense in a perfect world, but not in online game racing unfortunately.

As for weird attitude not absolutely going for the win, it's just for a few races. 3-4 clean races (and qualifications) will get you to F ranking, a few more you're in E and things will be already a lot better now and you can race such ranked lobbies and race normally. Although you can race competitively for the win even in unranked lobbies without danger from rammers sometimes, has happened to me some times, but is not what happens usually. E and D lobbies are faaar better.

Ah, also avoid going off track in both quali and race, I think this penalizes your rating (a bit) as well.

honespc
27-09-2017, 06:32
Think about it, iRacing is on the market since 2008 now and most people would agree that they're the benchmark in competitive online racing.
Why do you think are they also using this kind of penalty system?iRacing is the Benchmark to online performance, functionality and how it overall works online. However, It's always had the flaw of punishing the car in the front too, and you now had the chance to go different to iRacing by just doing the right opposite thing to that, and you just went down the same road. Why, because it's iRacing?, so what!, It's got its flaws too like this one you just copied over instead of trying to go better on that area.

Come on just change or adjust this. You know it's not a fair system. You have to the opportunity to demonstrate you can have more fair system to iRacing, and are going to just throw the chance down the toilet?.

All I ask you devs is to reconsider punishing the car in the front 50/50. This ain't real life, but a videogame, hence you know what happens 90% of the times with the car behind and whos to blame in most cases.


A lot of people have said it already, but just think about it again, if the game always penalized only the guys who hits from behind and you are a wrecker who enjoys destroying other people's fun, what would you do? It's easy answer isn't it? As soon as anybody was behind you, you would floor the brake pedal..this is why what you propose makes sense in a perfect world, but not in online game racing unfortunately.oh yeah sure, and It is most obvious that:

Premise /a), Car in the front brakes on purpose, so the one behind eats him and gets punished. This will happen 90% of the times when compared to...

Premise /b), The car behind either uses you as braking point, or tries to overtake very aggressively and touches you leading to spin, or etc etc cases derived from excessive aggressiveness/not being cautious enough when holding the responsibility for it.

Right. Sure premise /a happens a lot more.

Come on..


Ah, also avoid going off track in both quali and race, I think this penalizes your rating (a bit) as well.Yeah I've noticed that as well. I think It costs you five points, but this obviously can not be discerned who was to blame in a videogame. You just lose those 5 points and it's ok, no problem with that.

bmaytum
27-09-2017, 06:49
I fully agree with honespc about problems with the current Online Reputation scheme. I started at U1500 on PC2 Release day (9/22/17) and have seen my Rep get constantly hammered down from being A**-Rammed at Race start or first few turns. I drive quickly but defensively, but being wrecked and then penalized via lowered Rep is just not fair. In my experience 95% of the rear-end crashes are the fault of the driver behind, not the driver in front. At this point (now down from U1500 to U1360 through no fault of my own), I look for lobbies that have Online Rep turned OFF.

I hope SMS / WMD will re-consider and change the current warped penalty scheme.

Bealdor
27-09-2017, 06:51
iRacing is the Benchmark to online performance, functionality and how it overall works online. However, It's always had the flaw of punishing the car in the front too, and you now had the chance to go different to iRacing by just doing the right opposite thing to that, and you just went down the same road. Why, because it's iRacing?, so what!, It's got its flaws too like this one you just copied over instead of trying to go better on that area.

Come on just change or adjust this. You know it's not a fair system. You have to the opportunity to demonstrate you can have more fair system to iRacing, and are going to just throw the chance down the toilet?.

All I ask you devs is to reconsider punishing the car in the front 50/50. This ain't real life, but a videogame, hence you know what happens 90% of the times with the car behind and whos to blame in most cases.

As long as video games can't reliably differentiate who is at fault, the non-contact policy is the fairest rating system you can get.



oh yeah sure, and It is most obvious that:

Premise /a), Car in the front brakes on purpose, so the one behind eats him and gets punished. This will happen 90% of the times when compared to...

Premise /b), The car behind either uses you as braking point, or tries to overtake very aggressively and touches you leading to spin, or etc etc cases derived from excessive aggressiveness/not being cautious enough when holding the responsibility for it.

Right. Sure premise /a happens a lot more.

Come on..

What you don't seem to take into account is that as soon as you only punish the guy in the back, case a) WILL happen much more often than it is now.
Griefers will start to brake check everyone but this time only YOU, the victim, will get a rating penalty. How is that fairer than punishing both?

Litusgaga
27-09-2017, 07:06
Hi everybody! I'm rather new here so forgive me if I post anything in a wrong thread. I play in PS4, I know there is a special PS4 thread, but as I want to discuss about this issue and I didn't find any similar thread in the PS4 section I'm going to post it here.

I just want to contribute to the discussion saying that I'm really happy with the new rating system as I was really tired to be envolved in huge stupid crashes caused by people who wanted to play destruction derby rather than racing simulator. I'm not very fast but I love close-clean racing with online racers and I'm sure that's the way to create events with decent drivers.

However, even though I agree that most of the time is impossible for a machine to know who is guilty in a crash between 2 cars (brake testing, etc...), I think it is possible when the angle of the car from behind is far from being the ideal. I mean, if there is a crash behind you among 2-3 cars, one of them lose control and hits you backwards from behind, I think it should be easy, even for a machine, to say the the car in front is not guilty at all. I would post a video about a crash and penalisation I had yesterday which shows exactly this situation, but for the time being I'm not allowed to post video yet as I'm a newbie.

To sum up, really really good idea, I'm very happy about it, but some points have to be polished. Congratulations and thank you! Keep working on it!

nemo06
27-09-2017, 07:08
It is an absurd system. Yesterday I was struck violently by an idiot and my car crashed. I had to retire from the race and I lost 26 points.

AlGartner
27-09-2017, 07:59
The main reason why iracing safety rating is automated is that users compete in over 250.000 round-the-clock races per season, no way to watch/review incidents. So a fault-free system eliminates need for race stewards EXCEPT cases of INTENTIONAL wrecking. Then the protest system allows you to send replay, race steward will review. All in all in sim racing as IRL one has to measure the kind of risk he is willing to accept...there's no divine justice down there so 1/ Pcars 2 rating system is mainly a copy/paste system from iracing 2/ why's that? : because it works to gradually clean up the racing ground off compulsive wreckers 3/ it's imho the "least bad" system in an imperfect world, as iracing driver/AMS league racer/Pcars1 hamsterstew user i can testify ...(all ofc imho)

honespc
27-09-2017, 08:25
As long as video games can't reliably differentiate who is at fault, the non-contact policy is the fairest rating system you can get.




What you don't seem to take into account is that as soon as you only punish the guy in the back, case a) WILL happen much more often than it is now.
Griefers will start to brake check everyone but this time only YOU, the victim, will get a rating penalty. How is that fairer than punishing both?Because what you don't seem to take into account or just forget straight away in , too, is that the car behind is the one who always has to be cautious the most, out of the two, regardless anything else you may want to bring on to the table.

And you'll forgive me bro, but can't take seriously that premise /a would be happening more than the always 99% of the time happening in all racing games, aka premise /b again because it's the nature of the game and of the people who play it behind the internet. That's simply..., well. Let's leave it there.

This system is just as flawed as iRacing one is. The difference and why iRacing system works better than pc2 when using the same penalty philosophy, is that on iRacing I can save the replay and send it to the team to demonstrate what actually happened during a wreck. When Project Cars 2 does the same, and allow me to take it for granted that by any means It won't, then I'll begin to think different about how fair or unfair pc2 penalty system is. Until then, you can't pretend others thinking likewise as I do to take communion with a grindstone for a host.

Bealdor
27-09-2017, 08:33
Because what you don't seem to take into account or just forget straight away in , too, is that the car behind is the one who always has to be cautious the most, out of the two, regardless anything else you may want to bring on to the table.

That's true for regular driving on the road. But during racing you should NOT have to watch for cars slamming the brakes in the middle of the straight.



And you'll forgive me bro, but can't take seriously that premise /a would be happening more than the always 99% of the time happening in all racing games, aka premise /b again because it's the nature of the game and of the people who play it behind the internet. That's simply..., well. Let's leave it there.

I think you're seriously underestimating how commited some griefers are to ruin other players' gaming experience by exploiting game mechanics.

In no way I'm saying the system is perfect but it's still fairer than giving the rammers a loophole to ruin your rating without getting a penalty themselves.

Gunner RN
27-09-2017, 08:40
It's all about building alliances. Reach out to clean racers and ask for friendship. In turn you will be racing with people who will show you respect and your rating will grow quickly. Worked for me plus I've had a ton of fun!

Diluvian
27-09-2017, 09:10
It's all about building alliances. Reach out to clean racers and ask for friendship. In turn you will be racing with people who will show you respect and your rating will grow quickly. Worked for me plus I've had a ton of fun!

Another question, what if there are 20 people which only drive against themselves, there is no chance that everyone raises its skill level, right? Only the first few races, the good drivers raise some skill, the worse drivers loose a lot of points right until the system stabilized and the good ones can't get higher skill due to the fact that the others have too low skill rating. Sooner or later you have to go out and race the others.

Bealdor
27-09-2017, 09:15
Another question, what if there are 20 people which only drive against themselves, there is no chance that everyone raises its skill level, right? Only the first few races, the good drivers raise some skill, the worse drivers loose a lot of points right until the system stabilized and the good ones can't get higher skill due to the fact that the others have too low skill rating. Sooner or later you have to go out and race the others.

But if the races are clean, everyone will get a safety rating increase not just fast guys. With a better safety rating you can then join cleaner lobbies.

Gunner RN
27-09-2017, 09:20
IMO when you get out of "U" your odds will be much better of finding better racers. I like to believe that I will continue to find clean racers that will help me advance. I have alot to learn and I intend to find friends that will help me learn and improve. Plus there is the safety and skill rating so in theory even if your skill rating falls you can raise your safety rating thus finding more disciplined races will be easier.

Minolin
27-09-2017, 10:28
Oh, déjà vu ;)

The rating system is absolutely fine. While it does not reinvent the wheel, it looks very solid and will work well for most of the users. To my experience people who massively complain (like some of you) tend to be either too vain about their rating, misjudge their own ability to race clean or don't adjust their behaviour and server selection.

For the first category it is important to understand that this system will accept a few hits without a problem. It's not like you are hit once and then cannot reach the S-grade anymore. The system knows very well that hits can happen and may not be your fault. It's just the statistical approach that tells: Somebody who scores less hits in average is statistically cleaner than somebody who has many collisions, given the same amount of oppertunity. And this is damn right and works out.

But you also need to understand the system at least a bit and utilize it. Do not drive on U-servers when you try to maintain or even improve a higher grade - you miss the major advantage the system gives you, and actually the system basically demands you want to save on the cleanest server you can find (otherwise it won't really work out). Yes, this means slightly less choice on picking servers and less driver count, but a much better racing experience. I'm very curious to see if the pc2 community handles this better than the other group I have in mind ;)

HalfMoonRider
27-09-2017, 11:02
The difference and why iRacing system works better than pc2 when using the same penalty philosophy, is that on iRacing I can save the replay and send it to the team to demonstrate what actually happened during a wreck. When Project Cars 2 does the same, and allow me to take it for granted that by any means It won't, then I'll begin to think different about how fair or unfair pc2 penalty system is. Until then, you can't pretend others thinking likewise as I do to take communion with a grindstone for a host.

THIS!! Thank you "honespc" to get this on table. I wanted to write about this, but my English is a bit weak, so i didn't start to write about it. But anyway, what "honespc" just writed there, is the KEY REASON why that safety ranking works in iRacing. Me myself had done that many times also, and those wreckers are penalised after when team sees that replay.

If that possibility isn't coming to Project Cars, it never works as in iRacing (In iRacing i love that safety rating).

ironik
27-09-2017, 11:07
You guys know that there are some race incidents sometimes right?
I doubt that iRacing is reviewing every single race incident.
If the wrecker is not braking, I agree with you but there is no way SMS could handle that manually.

So work yourself out of U rank and that's it. It's not that hard, really.

M. -VIPER- Morgan
27-09-2017, 11:21
A simple question: what are you paying for pcars2 and what for iRacing?
pcars2 = one time 60$ without DLCs
iRacing = 66$ for a base membership on a yearly base with a currently 40% Off

The iRacing guys have enough money to do such analyzes.

honespc
27-09-2017, 11:43
^A simple answer.

Ok PC2 is a one time paid product whose producers aren't capable of handling extra work like analyzing replays regardless them reasons. They move on to them next product and that's all. Fine. Understandable as we aren't paying any extra fee for over watched internet racing, where "justice" often prevails after sending your replays, such is the iRacing case.

Then don't go and copy the iRacing system completely. Go the way it should be by penalizing the car behind, and the system will do the right thing which is to apply the penalty to one that deserves to get it by, at the very least 90% of the times if not more. This is what happens almost every time, and does no need further proof right?.

And I'm sorry, but in the world of the public racing lobbies on the internet, the "if we go down that road then we will get people braking on purpose and blahblah" sounds rather offensive to intelligence. It's beyond laughable to say the least, and proves that most holding that banner basically play with close friends or in serious leagues. Go play lobbies regardless the rank, and witness yourselves what happens in the actual public internet raciong, regardless I'm on an F,D,C whatever lobby.

^Furthermore and if we follow premise /a (the dude who brake son purpose, which happens 1 or 2% of the times), it would still be your responsibility to approach him with caution as you are the one who is about to try overtaking, which means that, one way or another, premise /b prevails in most conditions. The car that is to overtake the one in front should hold all responsibility and being the cautious one.

That is why iRacing system in pc2 is unfair, basically.

Daynja
27-09-2017, 11:47
You can quite easily gain Safety Rating (U-S) by making clean passes, that's how that part of the system works. So for example you could be in a public lobby (the worst places to race IMO) at the back and wait for the carnage to ensue and pass all the cars that knocked each other off the track, and keep doing that until the race is over and you will leap up the ratings the more cars you pass without incident. Its so easy when you know what to look for and when. The poor level driver will go too deep into a corner thinking they can get past and end up taking the victim off and themselves, its almost laughable how poor the level of driving can be but its so easy to capitalise on.


In some cases this isn't always easy as the run off areas are small and the chaos drivers can get back in the way too quickly possibly hitting you which can be a right pain (avoid long beach in a public lobby full of U ratings). Its about picking and choosing your moments. Despite this even if you are fast enough to qualify in the top ten or top 5 its not always easy to escape from poor drivers and it is frustrating when your smashed off the track or just used and a brake being knocked off your racing line by people with poor sportsmanship, but this isn't the fault of pCars 2. It is the general attitude amongst casual racers and its seen in every game in a public lobby environment unfortunately. It used to happen way back in the Codemasters Toca 2 days back in the early 2000s , through F1 2010 , Grid AutoSport , the entire Forza Motorsport series, Project Cars and now here. The general attitude for most casual types is just foot to the floor and never slow down to avoid contact. It sucks but that's why anyone that wants decent racing finds and joins a club that races clean and enjoys the intense competition of close racing, you just have to find them, and they advertise plenty on forums such as this one.


Eventually you will see more and more lobbies with no rating set because those types of people can never get good because the refuse to understand the basics of racing at speed amongst other driversand you can avoid those like a plague, and more and more servers that are run by clean racers will be on offer, and those bad drivers wont be able to get in as they have such poor ratings , although currently the min rating doesn't always work correctly. Eg we set a min of D1400 last night but eventually a U15xx got in. Luckily they were racing fair so we didnt have to kick but we always keep an eye on bad drivers when we can, like during qualifying on the monitor system. Find clubs like ours , if your not on PC , or if your on PC pop on to our site to register and join in on our races.

MartinMWWebb
27-09-2017, 11:50
I was smacked up the rear on the start line of my first online race flipping my car leading to me retire to garage and then quit session. my rating went down to U1430.. yes its annoying buy i know over time it will build back up. - in 2-3 months once things level out come back and say how you feel it is.. this is early days give it time.

As others have said, find yourself a group of decent people to race with and go from there

Minolin
27-09-2017, 12:04
my rating went down to U1430

You will do yourself a favor when totally ignoring the (performance) rating until you can drive on pretty restrictive servers (currently it may start at F, later on probably higher). It makes no sense to have the rating in mind while you can easily lose 50+ points without a mistake. Focus on the safety letter in order to get rid of the U-servers

honespc
27-09-2017, 12:08
Despite this even if you are fast enough to qualify in the top ten or top 5 its not always easy to escape from poor drivers and it is frustrating when your smashed off the track or just used and a brake being knocked off your racing line by people with poor sportsmanship, but this isn't the fault of pCars 2. Indeed. That's why we should apply premise /b, overriding the current incomplete in pc2 iRacing system. Incomplete because we don't have overwatchers for replays, hence it is better to punish the car behind, always, given the nature of the people playing on internet racing.

This way we make it fair by 90% of the situations if not more without overwatchers (replay analyzers). Granted

rich1e I
27-09-2017, 12:17
I'll definitely not be setting any qualifying times, start from the back and try to work my way through the field if possible, if not I'll just stay at the back and try to have no contact at all. I think it's not too difficult to understand the idea of getting a good safety rank and join or create high safety rank lobbies, and the griefers and wreckers will magically disappear. What's the griefers' goal? Right, ruin other peoples games. If you start penalizing only the car behind, trolls of course won't hit you anymore from behind, they'll brake check you. It's logical. You can't counter that argument just by negating it.
Patience is anyways key in racing, and now even more :P

honespc
27-09-2017, 12:39
It's logical. You can't counter that argument just by negating it. I'm not negating that argument. I'm just saying it's beyond ridiculous and even rather offensive to intelligence, given what we see every single day in internet racing in public lobbies, and since we can't send replays to claim for "justice", then premise /B should be the way to go, inevitably.

And by such logic pulsing behind the current system penalty philosophy, then this system goes to the detriment of those competitive, good and fair-skilled enough to fight for the first positions in a persistent manner for an entire race with just swapping some paint, no crashes or just tiny bumping.

If this is what this system promotes then, to be always afraid from the one in front and the kamikazes behind and aspire to just finishing the race after driving like a grandpa, then I'm afraid that might not encourage racing at all, and encourages me even further to ask for a revision of the penalty system; something I know won't happen by any means I know, but ok I at least brought it on to the table.

Just wanted to highlight what happens on the real internet (and you don't need to be told what happens there, do you?) the public lobbies regardless the rank, not in the pink sea of happiness of racing with friends and on serious leagues.

This system might be good only for all those in racing leagues or racing with close friends, but terrible bordering on the worst possible for public lobbies.

That is all at least from my part regarding this subject. Nothing more to say really.

solocapers
27-09-2017, 12:56
I can really understand how people can be very frustrated, when they racing in lobbies with rammers, in the beginning I had a lot of that, too. My advice is guys be patient, don't worry about position for some races, even if that means you finish last. Just make sure you drive clean and not others bump you either, until you rank up the safety ranking so you can join the safe lobbies. Completely ignore the "performance" ranking (the number) for now, let it go bottom down, mine did go sometime ago as well to the bottom. You can work on raising it once you're in clean racing lobbies.

Thats a fantastic post and I couldnt agree more.

Im not the best of drivers by any stretch and get fairly nervy in close racing.. but just keep steady and if in doubt hang back a bit. Seem to manage a lot better losing a sec or 2 on my potential lap times if it means holding back a bit and let the idiots do their thing and getting a clear run away.

10 or so races in and im D1480 which means I should have no bother filtering out the newbies who are likely to mis time braking points badly and the worst of the deliberate rammers.

rich1e I
27-09-2017, 13:03
I'm not negating that argument. I'm just saying it's beyond ridiculous and even rather offensive to intelligence, given what we see every single day in internet racing in public lobbies, and since we can't send replays to claim for "justice", then premise /B should be the way to go, inevitably.

And by such logic pulsing behind the current system penalty philosophy, then this system goes to the detriment of those competitive, good and fair-skilled enough to fight for the first positions in a persistent manner for an entire race with just swapping some paint, no crashes or just tiny bumping.

If this is what this system promotes then, to be always afraid from the one in front and the kamikazes behind and aspire to just finishing the race after driving like a grandpa, then I'm afraid that might not encourage racing at all, and encourages me even further to ask for a revision of the penalty system; something I know won't happen by any means I know, but ok I at least brought it on to the table.

Just wanted to highlight what happens on the real internet (and you don't need to be told what happens there, do you?) the public lobbies regardless the rank, not in the pink sea of happiness of racing with friends and on serious leagues.

This system might be good only for all those in racing leagues or racing with close friends, but terrible bordering on the worst possible for public lobbies.

That is all at least from my part regarding this subject. Nothing more to say really.

Of course you're negating the argument without having a counter argument. What really happens on the real internet is that there are people who like to ruin your races. You can get rid of them by getting a good safety rank and they're gone. They won't be able to be in a lobby with you again. That's the point of the ranking system as wreckers are a huge problem in any racing game.
If you don't have the patience to have just a few clean races without being on the podium, then it's not the system's fault, it's yours.
Racing incidents will always happen and they'll affect your safety rank. There will be races where you'll be at fault as well, because nobody's perfect and anyone can misjudge situations.

Daynja
27-09-2017, 13:15
This is an example of some of our races online RWB Racing have amongst our club members and with others that join and stay because they respect the other cars and want to enjoy clean and close racing themselves. We quickly remove bad drivers that maliciously ram or so so clumsy or terrible that they are a problem for everyone.


Its a 5 min video ( i had to narrow it down a lot or it would have been 30 mins +)

RE EDIT/UPLOAD DUE TO VIDEO ARTIFACTS


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqdEzGnOznQ

cpcdem
27-09-2017, 13:22
This system might be good only for all those in racing leagues or racing with close friends, but terrible bordering on the worst possible for public lobbies.


I was not "friends" with the guys I raced with last night, didn't even know them at all by name, as I am relatively new to the PCARS games and community. I just saw a lobby with "D" ranking and several players inside it, was happy to see that, joined it, and the racing was a blast, clean and fair, both if you were racing for top place or in the midfield or back. Just a few minutes before that, I had been racing in another D server (the first I ever saw), again very cleanly, but this time we had only 2-3 participants.

As time goes by, it seems that more and more higher rank lobbies will be created, leading to more clean racing. Again, by "rank" I only mean the letter part, the safety ranking. The competitive ranking (the number) is not really important, apart from for bragging rights :) (or for the very serious leagues I guess) But for me it's not a problem if that goes down, as long as I enjoy competitive clean racing in any part of the field.

As for racing leagues, I don't think those really need the ranking system, those are closed ones and people know each other and allow clean racers only anyway, so they're fine already. The (safety) ranking system is here to make the public casual online racing a much better place, and this is the racing I usually prefer, as I can quickly jump to a race just when I have the time to do that and for as long as I can and even if a race goes wrong for me, no problem, next one is just a minutes later! In the beginning I've had the same problems as you described (which are common in every racing game that I've tried), but since I've raised my safety ranking and can join safe servers, it's been extremely good.

honespc
27-09-2017, 13:24
This is an example of some of our races online RWB Racing have amongst our club members and with others that join and stay because they respect the other cars and want to enjoy clean and close racing themselves. We quickly remove bad drivers that maliciously ram or so so clumsy or terrible that they are a problem for everyone.
That's a really good demonstration of close quarters fast clean driving bro. Too bad pc2 system currently goes to the detriment of those who drive like you..

Kudos!


As for racing leagues, I don't think those really need the ranking system, those are closed ones and people know each other and allow clean racers only anyway, so they're fine already. The (safety) ranking system is here to make the public casual...Exactly, hence why the ranking system following the "premise /b" should have been the path to follow. You certainly don't need ranking stuff when racing alongside friends and cool people who know their shit.

cpcdem
27-09-2017, 13:43
This is an example of some of our races online RWB Racing have amongst our club members and with others that join and stay because they respect the other cars and want to enjoy clean and close racing themselves. We quickly remove bad drivers that maliciously ram or so so clumsy or terrible that they are a problem for everyone.


Hey, thanks a lot for posting this! Looking at this from outside and also from other drivers perspective looks even better than it felt while driving! Oh those Le Mans fights...

honespc, the safety ranking system did exactly that, allowed only clean racers to enter that lobby. It was an open public lobby, anybody with a D safety ranking could join and for as long as I was in it at least, nobody was kicked out of it, everybody was racing cleanly. And if I understand it correctly, apart from the 6-7 RWB guys, all the others we were "strangers". At least in one race there were something like 20 people in it..

Daynja
27-09-2017, 13:45
That's a really good demonstration of close quarters fast clean driving bro. Too bad pc2 system currently goes to the detriment of those who drive like you..

Kudos!

Exactly, hence why the ranking system following the "premise /b" should have been the path to follow. You certainly don't need ranking stuff when racing alongside friends and cool people who know their shit.


Keep searching for D+ (ideally C) servers. If you cant get in talk to us as we race every night and we can get you racing with us and your safety rank will fly up. We will without hesitation remove people that play unfair. Nobody likes to race amongst crashers and we certainly don't allow them long to cause mayhem. I'm a club race marshal, so If I'm hosting I will happily sit in the pits in qualy just monitoring the situation on track. I have the club at my disposal on Discord to call out names, if I miss an incident.


We love clean and fair racing above all else, and there are others out there who feel the same as we do, or feel the same frustrations you're experiencing. The cream will rise to the top, and the dredge will settle at the bottom once a few weeks have passed.

cpcdem
27-09-2017, 14:12
Im not the best of drivers by any stretch and get fairly nervy in close racing.. but just keep steady and if in doubt hang back a bit. Seem to manage a lot better losing a sec or 2 on my potential lap times if it means holding back a bit and let the idiots do their thing and getting a clear run away.

10 or so races in and im D1480 which means I should have no bother filtering out the newbies who are likely to mis time braking points badly and the worst of the deliberate rammers.

Exactly! And in more highly ranked lobbies you will not need to be that conservative anymore, because other people there do pay attention to you as well, they do not behave as they are alone on track.. It's just the beginning stages that need a bit of patience, to go past the U and F safety ranks.

Also don't worry if in clean lobbies occasionally you do give or get a bump, I think people understand that this is inevitable to happen sometimes. Just say a "sorry" if it was your fault, and remember that in replays it is usually easy to see if it was an intentional ram, overoptimistic move or just a racing incident.

ErockR32
27-09-2017, 14:30
I hardly ever post here. In fact I just look for info and relay it to my friends when I am bored at work.

You are in control of your car yes? Do not put yourself in a situation to be hit. Some you can not control but if you ARE as good of a driver as you THINK, this will be a non factor. People complain about this all the time in iRacing also. It would be impossible to review EVERY single incident on a track in a VIDEO GAME. 50/50 split is the best way to do it and it works incredibly well in iRacing. Pros and cons to everything in the world man.

Plain and simple. If you are as good as you say you are this will be a non factor just like it is in iracing. People do things entire lives and still suck at things. I have seen people playing hot lap and do crazy Q times all day. Get into a race and racecraft is total crap. Should always be aware of who and what is around you.

Daynja
27-09-2017, 15:32
I have seen people playing hot lap and do crazy Q times all day. Get into a race and race craft is total crap. Should always be aware of who and what is around you.


Not surprising. Hot lapping and having great race craft are two separate skills, although I hate it when the egotistical hot lappers join your server/lobby, bash into everyone and whine like an old lady if some one "glances " their bodywork and accuses everyone for being noobs/ (insert words of choice)

Wayne Kerr
27-09-2017, 16:59
All but one of my online races so far have been great. Better than most public lobbies tbh. Two wide through the carousel at RA with no harm done and then two wide at turn four in Catalyuna.

Wasn't expecting that buying the game tbh, but of all the games I have played, this first few days of public lobby have been surprisingly clean.

Daynja
28-09-2017, 16:31
To quote a fellow WMD Member:

"iRacing was exploring ALL of these options a long long time ago. They put considerable effort on it.. there's a very good reason why both parties always get punished. It evens out in the end. The trolls will fall by the wayside and in the lower categories,whilst people who drive carefully will prevail and have their own races."

Bealdor
28-09-2017, 17:11
To quote a fellow WMD Member:

"iRacing was exploring ALL of these options a long long time ago. They put considerable effort on it.. there's a very good reason why both parties always get punished. It evens out in the end. The trolls will fall by the wayside and in the lower categories,whilst people who drive carefully will prevail and have their own races."

Exactly this. Give it some time guys. It will get better for you over time.

surtic86
29-09-2017, 05:09
I think there are Possibilities to make the Ranking better. Why is there a U Rank "Unranked" when you can get from F back to U? There should be something lower then F that we can pool the crashers and new Drivers who will come in some Weeks can Drive eatch other in U Ranks and have not to deal with U Ranked players from the Past who always crash.

ironik
29-09-2017, 06:21
I think there are Possibilities to make the Ranking better. Why is there a U Rank "Unranked" when you can get from F back to U? There should be something lower then F that we can pool the crashers and new Drivers who will come in some Weeks can Drive eatch other in U Ranks and have not to deal with U Ranked players from the Past who always crash.

Yeah, definitely agree with this.
It would be great to have a Z rank below U. :D

Edit : Finally, i think it would be a bad idea.
The griefers will reset their profile to U1500.
Crashers may stay with it.
Honnest beginners would probably be stucked in this mayhem....

surtic86
29-09-2017, 06:33
Reset the Points? You can't reset the Points and Rating as i know.

Balles
29-09-2017, 12:57
U should only be for the new players. if you have F and go down, it should be a G or Z. That way you know a Z is bad and a U is maybe good but just started the MP.

hkraft300
29-09-2017, 13:18
...
You are in control of your car yes? Do not put yourself in a situation to be hit. Some you can not control but if you ARE as good of a driver as you THINK, this will be a non factor. ... Should always be aware of who and what is around you.

This.
To finish first, first you must finish.
Keep it clean, bring her home. Avoid danger situations.

Because both cars involved in a wreck are penalised, there is extra reason for a clean racer to be cautious. Being hit from behind isn't the only way someone trolls a race. They sideswipe, they brake-check too.

It's as much a factor in endurance racing as it is in Sims.

fesiri
19-01-2018, 14:27
I do not contribute much in forums(think it is my 1st post here) but skill/safety rating in PCARS2 is very "on spotlight", so I would like to share my view about the subject, mainly covering these related aspects:

1) Clean driving
2) Avoiding being rammed
3) Importance of self-criticism/empathy
4) Rating is not perfect: know how it works, adapt and make best use of it

SAFETY RATING:
- Know the track before competing online, in a level your brake points and racing line are as expected by others.

- Race in the crowd is very different from hot lapping: you won't use your brake point if you are behind a car. You will have to release the throttle before or brake before the car ahead. It is not enough to use the brake light from the car ahead if you are close. You can use your braking point if you are in a parallel racing line.

- Fight for your position, use defensive racing line, but admit to yourself when you are overtaken: let the good move from your opponent take your position. If he deserved, don't ruin it.

- If you made a little mistake and you were not that fast in a turn, be prepared to accept being overtaken. Too wide in a turn ? Do not over defend your position getting back to racing line at all costs. If you force your place back to racing line and something goes wrong, it's your fault.

- It was supposed to be well known, but important to highlight: no zig-zag to defend your position ! Change your racing line to the inside or outside only once !

- Only dive bomb from the inside if you are experienced enough and you know what you are doing.
If done correctly,
- you will put your car in front of the opponent's ideal racing line, but he must have some track left on the outside to drive,
- or you will be in front enough that he can hit the apex behind you without contact.
BUT, if something goes wrong, it is all your fault. If you dive bomb and pass him door-touching, you did it all wrong !

- 1st lap is not hot lapping !
- Your tires/brakes are cold
- Most people do not know turn 1 breaking point from standing start: be extra careful !
- Brake before front car lights up, please ! I usually release throttle before to be a bit slower than the front car. When brakes in front lights up, I can brake better than the front car because I start braking from a slower speed.
- In 1st lap, I advise fighting for position or defend position only when you have a clear advantage. In close conditions to your opponent, to fight too much in 1st lap will lead to a crash.

- The most important concept to avoid crashes is to have predictable racing line and braking point.
- You may think being unpredictable is an advantage since the opponent won't know what to do to overtake you. In fact, the disadvantage of being unpredictable is much higher, because if your opponent does not know what you will do, chances are he will not overtake you: he will hit you !
- Defend your position being a better driver and doing good predictable defensive maneuvers. Do not try to defend your position being unpredictable !
- Being predictable is key during starts and mostly in T1. You can say all you want that the blame is on the car behind, but if you saw a gap in turn 1 and changed abruptly your racing line just before braking, how can the car behind avoid a car that was not there ?

- When you are racing less skilled drivers, or even rammers, do not expect to have a good race fight side by side. Compare qualify times with your opponents and pre-assess their skills (rating is not enough). If you are behind one of these guys, it is better to wait for a mistake, overtake and quickly build a distance than overtaking and keeping right in front of a dangerous driver.

- Self-criticism and empathy for the others are very important.
- In first person view, it is almost impossible to judge a contact fairly. I consider myself a careful driver and some contacts I was completely sure I was right. After seeing a 3rd person view replay, it was my fault or even nobody's fault. Sometimes contact will occur during these fights and you did nothing to avoid it, or even facilitated the contact.
- When you feel you were screwed, please save the replay and see it 3rd person view from different angles. When you do it, be very critical about yourself.
- Sometimes it is the opponent's fault. But he is human just like you. EVERYBODY MAKES MISTAKES. Unless it is a clear unfair move on purpose, let it go ! After all, it is just a game.

SKILL RATING:
- Everything before was focused on safety, because I think it is more important. The importance is not in having an A or S rating, the importance is on being a polite, safe, cautious and predictable driver less prone to causing/being victim of any trouble.

- About both skill and safety ratings, it has limited progression purpose. You will not improve your skill and safety rating forever. You will progress until you reach YOUR skill and safety. I know the max skill rating is 5000 and probably there is some balancing issues in the calculations. But as it is, 1800 means you are a top driver and few people online compare to you. The purpose of skill rating is not to increase forever, but to compare you to others. Accept that if you have a 1300 rating, you are not as skilled as a 1600 due to a lot of things. And if you are not safe enough, the rating will never show your skill because you will crash, finish last and loose points (why safety is more important).

- When a say skilled, it is a combination of being fast, being fast consistently, making very few mistakes and able to avoid trouble(your fault or not). I know less rated drivers that are much faster and even more consistent than I am, but they get involved in trouble frequently (their fault or not). Their fault or not, they finish in the end of the grid because they crashed. To Complain about unfairness or being victim will not change your racing result, even if the safety penalty were perfect (it's not). Adapt !

- I do not understand why people complain about not progressing from 1800 skill(example). It means your skill is 1800 or you race people that will only allow you to progress until 1800. Skill rating will only be improved if you get better. If you want to prove you are even better, it can only be done by having better opponents. If public servers are not skilled enough to make you improve your skill rating, it means your skill rating is too high for the skill level of the public. You are already on top of public server drivers. You are already much better than most people online. No need to increase even more your rating. Want a better rating anyway? Find better opponents.

- I advise not to take skill ranking too seriously. If you start selecting your races to much, you are giving too much importance and protecting too much your rating. Offer your rating to others. Be challenged by lower rating guys. They can be better and deserve points from you. Or you can reaffirm your skill and earn some few points from them.

- You have 1800 rating and wining on public servers gives you 0 points ? You can complain you don't have a purpose on racing only to have a chance of loosing points.
What about making a new purpose out of it ? Offer your skill to the public, challenge them to beat you and do your best to keep your rating as high as possible. Lost a lot of points ? Race again and again to recover the rating you deserve. The competition is getting better ? You won't keep the same rating, and it is fair. Stop racing just to keep your number will ruin your entertainment.

About me and last thoughts:
- Just as reference, I am currently a A1728 driver in PCARS2, bronze strip license. ONLY running in open, public , not-clubbed races. I am currently unable to follow organized racing schedules (would love to).
- My rating does not come from being fast. I rarely loose points because I am mostly on top 3. I am a good trouble avoider (but get rammed and sometimes also make mistakes, never on purpose).
- I previously ran in league championships (GTRBrasil) and also 2 years of iRacing. Had a long period offline, and just came back online in November in PCARS2.
- I developed my current racing skills before joining PCARS2 online, and I think PCARS2 is not the best environment to develop your racing from rookie. That's where the frustration from a lot of people comes from. Racing side by side with rammers is a difficult environment for rookies to learn. Already skilled drivers avoid trouble, overtake and build distance easier than people that are still learning.
- Unfortunately, PCARS2 public servers are good enough online environment to already skilled drivers only. Better places to develop driving skills are leagues and iRacing. iRacing community may be toxic socially, but it is a great place to learn to race, because there are less rammers. I improved a lot during my iRacing times.


I hope some of these ideas can help people.

Race safe. Race as hard as you can keeping safe.
Do your part avoiding trouble, specially not creating trouble.
Sometimes shit happens. Sometimes it's unfair. Sometimes it's even your fault. Be patient.
Don't take your rating more seriously than your fun in racing.

Regards,
Fernando Ribeiro (name in steam / PCARS2 servers)
fesiri (steam user)

beatrunner
19-01-2018, 22:18
Today I've played six races, rammed from behind in four of them continuously (leading to crash and retiring from race on three of them,

i understand your frustration. but that (the quote) was exactly "your fault". the system see's: 6 races / 3 completed, lot's of contact, reduction needed. i mean: finish rate is 50%.

ofcourse it's damn hard to overcome the ragequit-syndrom in such cases. i have to force myself too. but don't do it anymore. don't do it. how often do you think i got screwed up in a race and got damage? ...too many times. but guess what? i never quit a race, and often it's possible to catch the "idiots" again, overtake them clean and easy (if damage isn't too high) and seeing them quit after or finish as last....

that's what the license is for. real racers stay on track whatever happens they finish the races. rammers who do it on purpose will have no fun anymore and will quit. this means: their license gets reduced a lot - you still can have positive effect on license. but you just need to finish everyrace (if possible...even stay on a safe spot at track side (when driving not possible anymore) and waiting for end of race is better then quitting. believe me.

your rating would never have been reduced so much - even if you finished all races as the last driver. assuming you aren't a very high ranked racers yet (because that means lot's of reduction too if not p1 and opponents are all lower)...

Jetsun
20-01-2018, 00:08
I do not contribute much in forums(think it is my 1st post here) but skill/safety rating in PCARS2 is very "on spotlight", so I would like to share my view about the subject, mainly covering these related aspects:

1) Clean driving
2) Avoiding being rammed
3) Importance of self-criticism/empathy
4) Rating is not perfect: know how it works, adapt and make best use of it

SAFETY RATING:
- Know the track before competing online, in a level your brake points and racing line are as expected by others.

- Race in the crowd is very different from hot lapping: you won't use your brake point if you are behind a car. You will have to release the throttle before or brake before the car ahead. It is not enough to use the brake light from the car ahead if you are close. You can use your braking point if you are in a parallel racing line.

- Fight for your position, use defensive racing line, but admit to yourself when you are overtaken: let the good move from your opponent take your position. If he deserved, don't ruin it.

- If you made a little mistake and you were not that fast in a turn, be prepared to accept being overtaken. Too wide in a turn ? Do not over defend your position getting back to racing line at all costs. If you force your place back to racing line and something goes wrong, it's your fault.

- It was supposed to be well known, but important to highlight: no zig-zag to defend your position ! Change your racing line to the inside or outside only once !

- Only dive bomb from the inside if you are experienced enough and you know what you are doing.
If done correctly,
- you will put your car in front of the opponent's ideal racing line, but he must have some track left on the outside to drive,
- or you will be in front enough that he can hit the apex behind you without contact.
BUT, if something goes wrong, it is all your fault. If you dive bomb and pass him door-touching, you did it all wrong !

- 1st lap is not hot lapping !
- Your tires/brakes are cold
- Most people do not know turn 1 breaking point from standing start: be extra careful !
- Brake before front car lights up, please ! I usually release throttle before to be a bit slower than the front car. When brakes in front lights up, I can brake better than the front car because I start braking from a slower speed.
- In 1st lap, I advise fighting for position or defend position only when you have a clear advantage. In close conditions to your opponent, to fight too much in 1st lap will lead to a crash.

- The most important concept to avoid crashes is to have predictable racing line and braking point.
- You may think being unpredictable is an advantage since the opponent won't know what to do to overtake you. In fact, the disadvantage of being unpredictable is much higher, because if your opponent does not know what you will do, chances are he will not overtake you: he will hit you !
- Defend your position being a better driver and doing good predictable defensive maneuvers. Do not try to defend your position being unpredictable !
- Being predictable is key during starts and mostly in T1. You can say all you want that the blame is on the car behind, but if you saw a gap in turn 1 and changed abruptly your racing line just before braking, how can the car behind avoid a car that was not there ?

- When you are racing less skilled drivers, or even rammers, do not expect to have a good race fight side by side. Compare qualify times with your opponents and pre-assess their skills (rating is not enough). If you are behind one of these guys, it is better to wait for a mistake, overtake and quickly build a distance than overtaking and keeping right in front of a dangerous driver.

- Self-criticism and empathy for the others are very important.
- In first person view, it is almost impossible to judge a contact fairly. I consider myself a careful driver and some contacts I was completely sure I was right. After seeing a 3rd person view replay, it was my fault or even nobody's fault. Sometimes contact will occur during these fights and you did nothing to avoid it, or even facilitated the contact.
- When you feel you were screwed, please save the replay and see it 3rd person view from different angles. When you do it, be very critical about yourself.
- Sometimes it is the opponent's fault. But he is human just like you. EVERYBODY MAKES MISTAKES. Unless it is a clear unfair move on purpose, let it go ! After all, it is just a game.

SKILL RATING:
- Everything before was focused on safety, because I think it is more important. The importance is not in having an A or S rating, the importance is on being a polite, safe, cautious and predictable driver less prone to causing/being victim of any trouble.

- About both skill and safety ratings, it has limited progression purpose. You will not improve your skill and safety rating forever. You will progress until you reach YOUR skill and safety. I know the max skill rating is 5000 and probably there is some balancing issues in the calculations. But as it is, 1800 means you are a top driver and few people online compare to you. The purpose of skill rating is not to increase forever, but to compare you to others. Accept that if you have a 1300 rating, you are not as skilled as a 1600 due to a lot of things. And if you are not safe enough, the rating will never show your skill because you will crash, finish last and loose points (why safety is more important).

- When a say skilled, it is a combination of being fast, being fast consistently, making very few mistakes and able to avoid trouble(your fault or not). I know less rated drivers that are much faster and even more consistent than I am, but they get involved in trouble frequently (their fault or not). Their fault or not, they finish in the end of the grid because they crashed. To Complain about unfairness or being victim will not change your racing result, even if the safety penalty were perfect (it's not). Adapt !

- I do not understand why people complain about not progressing from 1800 skill(example). It means your skill is 1800 or you race people that will only allow you to progress until 1800. Skill rating will only be improved if you get better. If you want to prove you are even better, it can only be done by having better opponents. If public servers are not skilled enough to make you improve your skill rating, it means your skill rating is too high for the skill level of the public. You are already on top of public server drivers. You are already much better than most people online. No need to increase even more your rating. Want a better rating anyway? Find better opponents.

- I advise not to take skill ranking too seriously. If you start selecting your races to much, you are giving too much importance and protecting too much your rating. Offer your rating to others. Be challenged by lower rating guys. They can be better and deserve points from you. Or you can reaffirm your skill and earn some few points from them.

- You have 1800 rating and wining on public servers gives you 0 points ? You can complain you don't have a purpose on racing only to have a chance of loosing points.
What about making a new purpose out of it ? Offer your skill to the public, challenge them to beat you and do your best to keep your rating as high as possible. Lost a lot of points ? Race again and again to recover the rating you deserve. The competition is getting better ? You won't keep the same rating, and it is fair. Stop racing just to keep your number will ruin your entertainment.

About me and last thoughts:
- Just as reference, I am currently a A1728 driver in PCARS2, bronze strip license. ONLY running in open, public , not-clubbed races. I am currently unable to follow organized racing schedules (would love to).
- My rating does not come from being fast. I rarely loose points because I am mostly on top 3. I am a good trouble avoider (but get rammed and sometimes also make mistakes, never on purpose).
- I previously ran in league championships (GTRBrasil) and also 2 years of iRacing. Had a long period offline, and just came back online in November in PCARS2.
- I developed my current racing skills before joining PCARS2 online, and I think PCARS2 is not the best environment to develop your racing from rookie. That's where the frustration from a lot of people comes from. Racing side by side with rammers is a difficult environment for rookies to learn. Already skilled drivers avoid trouble, overtake and build distance easier than people that are still learning.
- Unfortunately, PCARS2 public servers are good enough online environment to already skilled drivers only. Better places to develop driving skills are leagues and iRacing. iRacing community may be toxic socially, but it is a great place to learn to race, because there are less rammers. I improved a lot during my iRacing times.


I hope some of these ideas can help people.

Race safe. Race as hard as you can keeping safe.
Do your part avoiding trouble, specially not creating trouble.
Sometimes shit happens. Sometimes it's unfair. Sometimes it's even your fault. Be patient.
Don't take your rating more seriously than your fun in racing.

Regards,
Fernando Ribeiro (name in steam / PCARS2 servers)
fesiri (steam user)

The rookie in me thank you very much for this one! Looks like even more advanced racers can learn something from your post.

I'm far from feeling ready to go online, have to stick with AI with many more hours to learn basics but still having great fun.

May be I'll join a league to learn 'real racing' craft at some point but way before that I'm plannlng to try a tip I saw in another thread:
That is creating a lobby with only one human slot and the rest populated by AI. If we manage to drive clean there amongs AIs, it looks like our safety rating will rise. If that's really the case that might be a good way to avoid the most-dangerous-for-a-rookie U1500 lobbies, and start my on line career in more league-like lobbies, with higher safety rating.
Anyone ever tried that here, sounds a good work around if it works no?

fesiri
20-01-2018, 01:06
The rookie in me thank you very much for this one! Looks like even more advanced racers can learn something from your post.

I'm far from feeling ready to go online, have to stick with AI with many more hours to learn basics but still having great fun.

May be I'll join a league to learn 'real racing' craft at some point but way before that I'm plannlng to try a tip I saw in another thread:
That is creating a lobby with only one human slot and the rest populated by AI. If we manage to drive clean there amongs AIs, it looks like our safety rating will rise. If that's really the case that might be a good way to avoid the most-dangerous-for-a-rookie U1500 lobbies, and start my on line career in more league-like lobbies, with higher safety rating.
Anyone ever tried that here, sounds a good work around if it works no?

Maybe I pushed too much using the term rookie (sorry about that), and some very decent drivers also have hard times racing in public servers. If you cannot build distance from rammers, you will have hard times in PCARS2 public servers to develop skill, and will also be more frustrated with trouble. Again, not even necessary to be that fast: be patient, let rammers make their mistakes on their own, overtake and build distance. Before they reach you back they will go offtrack again.
I am not a fast driver at all... but regarding safety, consistency and wreck avoidance, I am much better. It makes me a 1700+ driver in PCARS2. I don't beleive I will reach 1800 and if I start to find more 1600+ people online, my rating may stabilize at a lower point. I saw some competition videos in youtube, and I really cannot keep up with an ESL weekly final grid, for example. A lot of them are really fast guys with much lower rating than mine. My skill rating is probably inflated just because I make really few big mistakes, rarely go off-track (some luck also count against rammers).
AIs do not give you any skill points (you can only receive points if others loose points in the grid). I beleive you won't improve safety rating(not sure), you will loose safety ranting if you spin/go off-track. I don't think AI is good enough to develop skills to drive online, I race offline with AI just for fun. Again, build your safety rating won't change much, there are very few lobbies with high safety rating requirement. To make better use of public servers, you need to learn to avoid trouble.

Jetsun
20-01-2018, 01:42
Real rookie am I indeed, no worries :) there's may be even less high ranking lobbies on PS4, ok then, few more weeks offline training then will try the hard way and see, wherever my ranking goes i can only learn in the process.

poirqc
20-01-2018, 10:42
I do not contribute much in forums(think it is my 1st post here) but skill/safety rating in PCARS2 is very "on spotlight", so I would like to share my view about the subject, mainly covering these related aspects:

1) Clean driving
2) Avoiding being rammed
3) Importance of self-criticism/empathy
4) Rating is not perfect: know how it works, adapt and make best use of it

SAFETY RATING:
- Know the track before competing online, in a level your brake points and racing line are as expected by others.

- Race in the crowd is very different from hot lapping: you won't use your brake point if you are behind a car. You will have to release the throttle before or brake before the car ahead. It is not enough to use the brake light from the car ahead if you are close. You can use your braking point if you are in a parallel racing line.

- Fight for your position, use defensive racing line, but admit to yourself when you are overtaken: let the good move from your opponent take your position. If he deserved, don't ruin it.

- If you made a little mistake and you were not that fast in a turn, be prepared to accept being overtaken. Too wide in a turn ? Do not over defend your position getting back to racing line at all costs. If you force your place back to racing line and something goes wrong, it's your fault.

- It was supposed to be well known, but important to highlight: no zig-zag to defend your position ! Change your racing line to the inside or outside only once !

- Only dive bomb from the inside if you are experienced enough and you know what you are doing.
If done correctly,
- you will put your car in front of the opponent's ideal racing line, but he must have some track left on the outside to drive,
- or you will be in front enough that he can hit the apex behind you without contact.
BUT, if something goes wrong, it is all your fault. If you dive bomb and pass him door-touching, you did it all wrong !

- 1st lap is not hot lapping !
- Your tires/brakes are cold
- Most people do not know turn 1 breaking point from standing start: be extra careful !
- Brake before front car lights up, please ! I usually release throttle before to be a bit slower than the front car. When brakes in front lights up, I can brake better than the front car because I start braking from a slower speed.
- In 1st lap, I advise fighting for position or defend position only when you have a clear advantage. In close conditions to your opponent, to fight too much in 1st lap will lead to a crash.

- The most important concept to avoid crashes is to have predictable racing line and braking point.
- You may think being unpredictable is an advantage since the opponent won't know what to do to overtake you. In fact, the disadvantage of being unpredictable is much higher, because if your opponent does not know what you will do, chances are he will not overtake you: he will hit you !
- Defend your position being a better driver and doing good predictable defensive maneuvers. Do not try to defend your position being unpredictable !
- Being predictable is key during starts and mostly in T1. You can say all you want that the blame is on the car behind, but if you saw a gap in turn 1 and changed abruptly your racing line just before braking, how can the car behind avoid a car that was not there ?

- When you are racing less skilled drivers, or even rammers, do not expect to have a good race fight side by side. Compare qualify times with your opponents and pre-assess their skills (rating is not enough). If you are behind one of these guys, it is better to wait for a mistake, overtake and quickly build a distance than overtaking and keeping right in front of a dangerous driver.

- Self-criticism and empathy for the others are very important.
- In first person view, it is almost impossible to judge a contact fairly. I consider myself a careful driver and some contacts I was completely sure I was right. After seeing a 3rd person view replay, it was my fault or even nobody's fault. Sometimes contact will occur during these fights and you did nothing to avoid it, or even facilitated the contact.
- When you feel you were screwed, please save the replay and see it 3rd person view from different angles. When you do it, be very critical about yourself.
- Sometimes it is the opponent's fault. But he is human just like you. EVERYBODY MAKES MISTAKES. Unless it is a clear unfair move on purpose, let it go ! After all, it is just a game.

SKILL RATING:
- Everything before was focused on safety, because I think it is more important. The importance is not in having an A or S rating, the importance is on being a polite, safe, cautious and predictable driver less prone to causing/being victim of any trouble.

- About both skill and safety ratings, it has limited progression purpose. You will not improve your skill and safety rating forever. You will progress until you reach YOUR skill and safety. I know the max skill rating is 5000 and probably there is some balancing issues in the calculations. But as it is, 1800 means you are a top driver and few people online compare to you. The purpose of skill rating is not to increase forever, but to compare you to others. Accept that if you have a 1300 rating, you are not as skilled as a 1600 due to a lot of things. And if you are not safe enough, the rating will never show your skill because you will crash, finish last and loose points (why safety is more important).

- When a say skilled, it is a combination of being fast, being fast consistently, making very few mistakes and able to avoid trouble(your fault or not). I know less rated drivers that are much faster and even more consistent than I am, but they get involved in trouble frequently (their fault or not). Their fault or not, they finish in the end of the grid because they crashed. To Complain about unfairness or being victim will not change your racing result, even if the safety penalty were perfect (it's not). Adapt !

- I do not understand why people complain about not progressing from 1800 skill(example). It means your skill is 1800 or you race people that will only allow you to progress until 1800. Skill rating will only be improved if you get better. If you want to prove you are even better, it can only be done by having better opponents. If public servers are not skilled enough to make you improve your skill rating, it means your skill rating is too high for the skill level of the public. You are already on top of public server drivers. You are already much better than most people online. No need to increase even more your rating. Want a better rating anyway? Find better opponents.

- I advise not to take skill ranking too seriously. If you start selecting your races to much, you are giving too much importance and protecting too much your rating. Offer your rating to others. Be challenged by lower rating guys. They can be better and deserve points from you. Or you can reaffirm your skill and earn some few points from them.

- You have 1800 rating and wining on public servers gives you 0 points ? You can complain you don't have a purpose on racing only to have a chance of loosing points.
What about making a new purpose out of it ? Offer your skill to the public, challenge them to beat you and do your best to keep your rating as high as possible. Lost a lot of points ? Race again and again to recover the rating you deserve. The competition is getting better ? You won't keep the same rating, and it is fair. Stop racing just to keep your number will ruin your entertainment.

About me and last thoughts:
- Just as reference, I am currently a A1728 driver in PCARS2, bronze strip license. ONLY running in open, public , not-clubbed races. I am currently unable to follow organized racing schedules (would love to).
- My rating does not come from being fast. I rarely loose points because I am mostly on top 3. I am a good trouble avoider (but get rammed and sometimes also make mistakes, never on purpose).
- I previously ran in league championships (GTRBrasil) and also 2 years of iRacing. Had a long period offline, and just came back online in November in PCARS2.
- I developed my current racing skills before joining PCARS2 online, and I think PCARS2 is not the best environment to develop your racing from rookie. That's where the frustration from a lot of people comes from. Racing side by side with rammers is a difficult environment for rookies to learn. Already skilled drivers avoid trouble, overtake and build distance easier than people that are still learning.
- Unfortunately, PCARS2 public servers are good enough online environment to already skilled drivers only. Better places to develop driving skills are leagues and iRacing. iRacing community may be toxic socially, but it is a great place to learn to race, because there are less rammers. I improved a lot during my iRacing times.


I hope some of these ideas can help people.

Race safe. Race as hard as you can keeping safe.
Do your part avoiding trouble, specially not creating trouble.
Sometimes shit happens. Sometimes it's unfair. Sometimes it's even your fault. Be patient.
Don't take your rating more seriously than your fun in racing.

Regards,
Fernando Ribeiro (name in steam / PCARS2 servers)
fesiri (steam user)

That's a golden post about online racing approach! Very well worded!

Balles
20-01-2018, 10:56
Coming back to OP's title, the rating system is pretty spot on but if SMS has gold on their hands (not just the rating/safety system) it is under-exploited and with some more time to dev the game or in the next one, they really can make the ultimate sim one can ever dream of.

I really hope SMS is still in needs to tend to this perfect game we all want and continue to give us even more of what they gave with PC2.

Interchangeable
20-01-2018, 11:37
Maybe I pushed too much using the term rookie (sorry about that), and some very decent drivers also have hard times racing in public servers. If you cannot build distance from rammers, you will have hard times in PCARS2 public servers to develop skill, and will also be more frustrated with trouble. Again, not even necessary to be that fast: be patient, let rammers make their mistakes on their own, overtake and build distance. Before they reach you back they will go offtrack again.


This is the catch 22 with idea of starting at the back if your a lower rating. You're trying to start at the back to avoid the morons but at the same time you need too pass them in order to gain places but they'll still impact your rating by blocking, pushing or ramming! That's why it's better to start at the front and try to stay out of trouble.

Interchangeable
20-01-2018, 11:42
"- 1st lap is not hot lapping !"

I just want too add the every lap in a race is not a hot lapping contest! You're doing 7 racing laps not 7 quaily laps! Focus on being smooth and having a good lap time grouping and trying to stay within a pack of cars. If you do that then you'll win the race easily or get a better place! Nearly every race I have won as of late has been due to someone pushing too hard and making stupid mistakes that they didn't need to do!

Interchangeable
20-01-2018, 11:51
Just remember that very one has good and bad races. Just focus on what you did good and try to replecate that other races. If you made mistakes then focus on trying to not make them again, remember practice makes perfect!

Sometimes you'll gain points and other times you'll lose them! Just focus on having a good clean race and you'll get the reward from that!

I known better than anyone that bad luck can strike, but you just need to get over it and hope you'll have a better won next time out!

I think that the main problem with a rating system is that most people aren't use to going down in rating. I mean in most triple A shooter games (COD) you're always going up and never down! Sim Racing games are really the only games in which you lose rating and to newer players of racing games that maybe strange at first?

Raklodder
29-01-2018, 11:02
Exactly this. Give it some time guys. It will get better for you over time.
Do you know if v1.4 will bring some changes to the rating system and online mode in general or if we'll have the same kind of situation post-patch?

Sankyo
29-01-2018, 11:12
Do you know if v1.4 will bring some changes to the rating system and online mode in general or if we'll have the same kind of situation post-patch?
What exact issue are you thinking of when hoping for changes/improvements?

demadou
30-01-2018, 12:30
Can we say EVERYTHING about the MP user experience has to be seen from another POV ?
There's less and less players online. Most of the time I have to spend 10+ minutes to go on a race. We don't have any filters for the servers. Constant deconnections (can't be my internet connection), by the way rammers are not SMS' fault.
To answer to Sankyo, I would think of changing everything about the MP approach.