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View Full Version : puddles have a completely unrealistic effect in low speed



BeG-PCARS
27-09-2017, 23:37
Hi,

first I thought that the puddles are a fantastic addition and the aquaplaning effect when going through them in heavy rain and fast speed seems more or less realistic.

But if you try to go through a big puddle in ANY SPEED, you find out it is basically impossible to make it through. There was a large puddle in a turn on Nordschleife and it was impossible to make pass it in first gear and walking speed! The car experienced heavy aquaplaning effects and turned sideways like it would be realistic for ~100km/h.

So, please re-check and change puddle effects for slow speeds!

Oomph
27-09-2017, 23:46
Agreed, same with the massive puddle it generates at the last corner at Bathurst,, it's like ice, I was the only car on track, so it may clear a line through it with a full grid, will have to try that.

BeG-PCARS
30-09-2017, 20:23
hairneedle turn at Rouen Les Essarts in heavy rain eg. with Lotus 49. It is simply impossible to just walk through this turn without spinning... It's ridiculous. Needed to be adjusted asap.

pyide_maybe
01-10-2017, 02:17
Yeah, it's insane. No matter how slow you go you will slip and slide on puddles of water like they were ice instead of rolling through them like an actual vehicle through water. I tried pitting to switch to ice tires mid-race just to see if that would do anything, nope! Haha. Still had to try.

Silraed
01-10-2017, 02:48
I had an online race with with some quick weather changes last night at Zolder where it was dry for two laps, wet for 3 and then drying for another 3 I think it was. Once it stopped raining and the track started drying touching the puddles that were left at the chicanes and last corner was almost certainly into the wall unless we slowed down to a point where we were losing seconds a lap and this was with wet tyres on still. The same puddles seem to behave differently on a full wet track than they do on a partially dry track and it feels bizarre.

Ian Bell
01-10-2017, 03:23
We'll look at that low speed behaviour guys.

Aldo Zampatti
01-10-2017, 03:57
I would like to personally test this, since "low speed" sometime is miss-interpreted, as going 80km/h in a GT3 car might be considered VERY slow while hitting a puddle with slicks at that speed is scary.

I had a very frightening experience running semi-slicks on my Clio IV RS last year hitting a (relatively small) puddle at 100km/h on a straight line. Completely snapped the fronts and (millisecond later) the rears to enter into a spin being a 1st class passenger on that roller coaster to finalize looking into the same direction I was going originally without a scratch.

I must say that other cars that were running seconds before me on normal tires did not even felt that puddle (it seems since I was the only idiot spinning) :)

major sunscreen
01-10-2017, 07:33
Good to hear it being looked at. Same deal Donnington GP in second to last hairpin. Speed, ride height etc no effect. "Slow" speed 15mph...post above does make a good point as anecdotally I saw an Audi spin out ahead of me in a thunderstorm on the M3 a few weeks ago on my way home from work.. at 60mph. Parked very neatly on the hard shoulder but pointing the wrong way. Lucky lucky. In my 10 ton x type no dramas.. very funny.but if its going to be a function of speed as suggested then it has to apply to ai as well as othetwise itll ruin things.

TylerDurden4321
02-10-2017, 21:44
Thought I'd post this here as well... some data on grip in the wet and where aquaplaning starts (basically non-existant under 60km/h)

<<Cut again because of possible copyright claims>>

TDS
10-10-2017, 06:48
puddles looks like its still a prototype of some sort, really the physics need a lots of work to be believable/realistic, atm its aquaplaning at 30kph in light rain.... this isnt right.
also every little or big puddle generates lots of aquaplaning in game. overly done imho. needs lots of tweaks.

Sankyo
10-10-2017, 06:53
puddles looks like its still a prototype of some sort, really the physics need a lots of work to be believable/realistic, atm its aquaplaning at 30kph in light rain.... this isnt right.
also every little or big puddle generates lots of aquaplaning in game. overly done imho. needs lots of tweaks.

How do you know it's 'lots of work' and 'lots of tweaks' are needed? Maybe it's just one parameter value that needs to be adjusted and everything works...

solocapers
10-10-2017, 08:05
I would like to personally test this, since "low speed" sometime is miss-interpreted, as going 80km/h in a GT3 car might be considered VERY slow while hitting a puddle with slicks at that speed is scary.

I had a very frightening experience running semi-slicks on my Clio IV RS last year hitting a (relatively small) puddle at 100km/h on a straight line. Completely snapped the fronts and (millisecond later) the rears to enter into a spin being a 1st class passenger on that roller coaster to finalize looking into the same direction I was going originally without a scratch.

I must say that other cars that were running seconds before me on normal tires did not even felt that puddle (it seems since I was the only idiot spinning) :)

Tbf, he did say it was at walking speed..

RaceNut
10-10-2017, 15:32
Another strange thing I've experienced when hitting puddles with one side of the car, the car will become skewed instantly and without any pull in that direction from the FFB. Every time I've driven through puddles on roads in RL, I definitely have felt the steering pull to that side when at speed due to the water-resistance / aquaplaning effects on one side.

TDS
10-10-2017, 22:48
How do you know it's 'lots of work' and 'lots of tweaks' are needed? Maybe it's just one parameter value that needs to be adjusted and everything works...

IF the simulation of water is that simplistic thanwe will wait forever for it to be realistic.

Morgan Henstridge
10-10-2017, 23:31
IF the simulation of water is that simplistic thanwe will wait forever for it to be realistic.

What makes you say that??

There may be many parameters involved and it may just be 1 that needs to be tweaked. That doesn't mean that it is simplistic.

Ossnott
12-10-2017, 23:50
Another strange thing I've experienced when hitting puddles with one side of the car, the car will become skewed instantly and without any pull in that direction from the FFB. Every time I've driven through puddles on roads in RL, I definitely have felt the steering pull to that side when at speed due to the water-resistance / aquaplaning effects on one side.
I think I have experienced a pull in the ffb when only hitting a puddle with one side, but not 100% sure I remember correctly, will have to try this again.

deadly
13-10-2017, 16:51
would be nice if the ai's cars had the same physics as the player's. strange idea to have different grip levels for the ai.

Seelenkrank
13-10-2017, 17:11
would be nice if the ai's cars had the same physics as the player's. strange idea to have different grip levels for the ai.

this would be great because they are then not faster then the physical conditions allow it.
but won`t happen...

Roger Prynne
13-10-2017, 17:14
would be nice if the ai's cars had the same physics as the player's. strange idea to have different grip levels for the ai.

If you had that you would never be able to play the game as it would take a super duper powerful computer to achieve it.

flag1944
13-10-2017, 20:45
Not sure we need the AI to be slipping about in the rain. They are quite slow in the wet as it is. The only puddle that has ever gotten me in heavy rain was the final turn on Spa and it felt quite natural to me. Unless something has changed since the patch (as I haven't run any wet tracks since) the wet surface feels pretty good.

That said, I'm not going to complain one bit if this is tweaked to make it closer to reality.

koly
14-10-2017, 03:37
with brandhatch Indy and thunderstorm, there is one big puddle before last turn, and we spin each time but AI not :)

plaid
14-10-2017, 10:27
Agreed, same with the massive puddle it generates at the last corner at Bathurst,, it's like ice, I was the only car on track, so it may clear a line through it with a full grid, will have to try that.

Yes. Its allready frustrating if you try to catch the AI that aren't effected by the puddles and can keep drivin on the regular line in case of those not covering the entire track. But god that part on Bathurst was a nightmare.

Anyway, regarding reality: Are there really parts of tracks that get entirely covered? Thinking about safety or just preventing a need to stop the race I would expect either a banking and the water runnin down off the track or maybe holes so puddles that sizes can't happen.

ELAhrairah
14-10-2017, 14:23
The Mulsanne straight at Le Mans is during a rainstorm undoable. The puddles have no effect on the AI and they just drive past you into the horizon.
Now these extreme puddles only occur during a rainstorm and I believe that normally in reality that is a race red flag or double yellow/complete race slow zone. I doubt if SMS can integrate that function into Pcars2.
What irritates the most is that the puddles do not seem to affect AI, some people already mentioned that here. That should be fixed.

Seelenkrank
14-10-2017, 14:59
it can only be fixed if the AI would drive with the same physic model used by the player and this is not possible (yet).

ELAhrairah
14-10-2017, 15:39
it can only be fixed if the AI would drive with the same physic model used by the player and this is not possible (yet).

Then driving against AI in heavy rain (storm) is impossible.

Seelenkrank
14-10-2017, 15:58
well not impossible but senseless in some way...
you (SMS) make them faster or slower until you had the feeling of race against humans and had a "realistic" chance.
i hope some day it would be possible to had this graphics and all the same physics model for AI + Human.

Roger Prynne
14-10-2017, 20:36
well not impossible but senseless in some way...
you (SMS) make them faster or slower until you had the feeling of race against humans and had a "realistic" chance.
i hope some day it would be possible to had this graphics and all the same physics model for AI + Human.

Maybe in about 10 years or so.

koly
14-10-2017, 20:46
Maybe in about 10 years or so.


GTR 3 from Sim bil will come before, as a BIG fanfrom SIMBIM and Sector 3, i know it will be the best sim :)

kofotsjanne
14-10-2017, 21:16
Maybe in about 10 years or so.
So what you saying is that SMS have made the game do physics calculations on the GPU?

Roger Prynne
14-10-2017, 21:23
^ lol... I fixed my quote.

Seelenkrank
14-10-2017, 21:45
So what you saying is that SMS have made the game do physics calculations on the GPU?

i did not see his quote but if this is a way to get this get to work i will put another GPU to my PC ^^
with PhysX you can let a second GPU do this job.
but sadly its only used for a handfull of games and brings only some effects -> useless.
but, as strike commander comes to PC in the 90`s (?) everyone (even with the high end machines (486-66mhz)) cant play this game on full grafics because they were to slow.
time changes, games changes and the hardware changes.

Roger Prynne
14-10-2017, 21:57
^ He was talking about 'Car Physics' not' PhysX' lol


all the same physics model for AI + Human.

Seelenkrank
16-10-2017, 15:21
it is a card doing work.
ok we racers will never seen an extra card for the PC doing physics stuff (but would be nice ^^)
anyway:
did a race in the Ginetta GT5 on Silverstone international (dont know if carrier race is on the same) because people complaining a lot on the behavior in rainy conditions and the tires (all weather)
Date from today, 20min race 12 track temp AI on 85/75. starts with rain and then thunderstorm (sync to race)
i did win with ~6 second gap to the second (smashed 2-3 times the car because i think i could do faster --> nope)
it was a little bit tricky on the gas (slow will go fast) and if you dont brake/accelerate you can come without to much stress through the big puddels.
and dont brake late for cornering, way more earlyier than in dry conditions!
the hardest part from driving was the pit lane after the outlap... crashed in some other pit ;)
so it is not on the game, you as driver has to adapt to the conditions sometimes too.

TDS
16-10-2017, 16:33
What makes you say that??

There may be many parameters involved and it may just be 1 that needs to be tweaked. That doesn't mean that it is simplistic.

it also doesn't mean its complex and/or well done. "i'm gonna change this one parameter and BANG its fixed", proper water physics don't work like that.

-If you change water density for example you would need to adjust water puddles grip too,
-how much resistence the higher dense water apply to the tires passing it?,
-if water volume and depth have different grip levels/aquaplaning characteristics you gonna have to adjust how much grip for each oh those
-is the tire displacing water? another thing to be tweaked too now,
-do the water flow affects anything?
-the start of the flow has more or less depth compared with where its flowing?
-how do the grip dynamically changes with that difference?
-and so on.....

we are not talking merely grip levels here ( witch would be maybe one parameter, and its like that it seems) ,

But more importantly, how the water simulation was implemented in the game? without this answer its impossible to make a proper feedback.

Nats
16-10-2017, 21:09
it is a card doing work.
ok we racers will never seen an extra card for the PC doing physics stuff (but would be nice ^^)
anyway:
did a race in the Ginetta GT5 on Silverstone international (dont know if carrier race is on the same) because people complaining a lot on the behavior in rainy conditions and the tires (all weather)
Date from today, 20min race 12 track temp AI on 85/75. starts with rain and then thunderstorm (sync to race)
i did win with ~6 second gap to the second (smashed 2-3 times the car because i think i could do faster --> nope)
it was a little bit tricky on the gas (slow will go fast) and if you dont brake/accelerate you can come without to much stress through the big puddels.
and dont brake late for cornering, way more earlyier than in dry conditions!
the hardest part from driving was the pit lane after the outlap... crashed in some other pit ;)
so it is not on the game, you as driver has to adapt to the conditions sometimes too.

I have found that Silverstone with Ginetta GT5 is very tricky during a thunderstorm it is practically impossible to drive. Its just the puddles are pulling too much. If the puddle handling effects were turned down a bit it would help a lot I think. I have seen normal cars sliding around on tracks in heavy rain (Fuji Endurance just this weekend saw the safety car all over the place just before the race started for example) so real tracks are obviously very slippy when wet. Is there no way the puddles could perhaps gradually be reduced over the race where they are on the racing line as they would in real life? Usually the start of the race is the worst with the lying water - once the water is dispersed a bit its better for the cars. Would be great if this was represented somehow.

BeG-PCARS
17-10-2017, 21:27
I got the impression that they changed the affects of puddles a bit - it's now easier to go through at high speeds, but it is still impossible to pass them without big affect on slow speeds. Which is a major issue in some hairpin turns which render impossible to be passed no matter how you try... This needs to be addressed!

bmanic
17-10-2017, 21:37
That's the main issue I have noticed. As I've gone through a huge puddle at moderately high speed (about 130km/h) in real life, I KNOW how bad the effect of aquaplaning is.. so I don't mind the effect at high speed (except the twisting FFB is a bit too much perhaps?). Low speed aquaplaning at 10km/h should be impossible of course, so that's definitely buggy behavior.

RomKnight
17-10-2017, 22:22
I've seem people swapping ends in a roundabout a little bit faster only. This roundabout behind my house is REALLY magic.

Guess what happened today as well? When it rains it's one a day here. Seriously, is beyond ridiculous!

The slower I got aquaplaning (on new tyres) was 80kph.

With the water moving (downhill) I think it's worse than in a straight TBH. I got much worse already and had no issues going even faster so that one caught me by surprise. I switched lanes before even blinking but got lucky I hit nothing but air and actually got going straight as if nothing has happened but... on another lane. The car moved exactly in the direction of the water too BTW. I don't think it was funny but after analysing it it was an interesting "find".

I still think at 10kph might be a bit too much depending on the tyre and car that is...

But in the wet even the PRO's get caught: Nelson Piquet Jr; FIA WEC; this weekend at Fuji; T1 ;)

Schnizz58
17-10-2017, 22:41
How do you know it's 'lots of work' and 'lots of tweaks' are needed? Maybe it's just one parameter value that needs to be adjusted and everything works...

Can't win for losing here. We say, "Should be an easy fix." You guys say, "Don't tell us what's easy, you don't know the code." We say, "That needs a lot of work." You say, "You don't know that, maybe it's a simple tweak."

:D

BeG-PCARS
24-10-2017, 23:38
just tried Azure circuit at thunderstorm in a GTO car with rain tyres. It's impossible to drive. 40-70km/h on the straight and slipping around like on ice.. AI going through without issues, but it's impossible to follow..

Please fix the puddles issue! It# snice to have various weather effects, but ith should be implemented in a way they are actually usable!

kligson
25-10-2017, 09:27
Can't win for losing here. We say, "Should be an easy fix." You guys say, "Don't tell us what's easy, you don't know the code." We say, "That needs a lot of work." You say, "You don't know that, maybe it's a simple tweak."

:D
The only way to win is by not making baseless assumptions, which is what the moderator team are trying to communicate tirelessly.
We have zero insight in what code is used, how it interfaces with other aspect inside the same code-base, what sort of configuration options there are inside or outside of a simple to edit config file or need major updates to calculations.
Making assumptions about what is easy or hard to accomplish is utterly useless and comes off as condescending towards the dev team...

Ian Bell
25-10-2017, 09:31
The only way to win is by not making baseless assumptions, which is what the moderator team are trying to communicate tirelessly.
We have zero insight in what code is used, how it interfaces with other aspect inside the same code-base, what sort of configuration options there are inside or outside of a simple to edit config file or need major updates to calculations.
Making assumptions about what is easy or hard to accomplish is utterly useless and comes off as condescending towards the dev team...

We're adding depth charges to puddles for extra arcade goodness.

kligson
25-10-2017, 09:41
We're adding depth charges to puddles for extra arcade goodness.

:D With some bright, blinking, colourful icons hovering over them, i hope.

Schnizz58
26-10-2017, 22:28
The only way to win is by not making baseless assumptions, which is what the moderator team are trying to communicate tirelessly.
We have zero insight in what code is used, how it interfaces with other aspect inside the same code-base, what sort of configuration options there are inside or outside of a simple to edit config file or need major updates to calculations.
Making assumptions about what is easy or hard to accomplish is utterly useless and comes off as condescending towards the dev team...

Maybe I should have used more smilies. But since you made the error of taking me seriously...

You're right we have no insight into the actual architecture of the system. However some of us have some insight into what a well-architected system is like to maintain. So we're actually giving the devs some credit when we say something like "This should be an easy fix." We're giving them the benefit of the doubt that in a well-designed system it would be an easy fix. If the devs feel that it's condescending to make the assumption that the system is well-designed, then I don't know what to say about that.

gotdirt410sprintcar
26-10-2017, 23:02
I was driving the Ginnta jr Silverstone international Could hardly drive it. Down the straight it was tough you come out of one puddle hit the next half throttle to make it plus a lack of a decent setup. But it was only a fifteen minute race so it Could of played a part in how the track generated rain.

I think how the puddles form could be a little slower imo or in the future add a slider for that purpose. Longer races it might be different haven't got that far yet.

Off Topic i see project cars will be my #1 game, Gt sport.... a pcars 1 quote Floaty Blah got too much too do on pcars probably get bored with sport real quick just saying.

Raklodder
27-10-2017, 05:39
I'm glad you guys are looking into the issue, only question is if we'll ever see it being changed, anyway, looking forward to v1.3 and what you have in store for us.