PDA

View Full Version : Force Feedback on G29 when braking and locking anterior



Ciccina2016
29-09-2017, 11:59
Hello guys

a question regarding how the FFB has been implemented in PC2.

I have been playing Assetto Corsa a lot and when I brake and lock the anterior, I can feel the vibration on the steering wheel.
This is really cool as I can understand if I am breaking over the limit.

IN PC2 it seems that this kind of effect is not available.
Yes, the sound helps you but you feel nothing on the wheel.


Is this a bug or is it designed like this?
Is this happening with other steering wheels as well? Or is it console related?

Thank you

b1sakher
29-09-2017, 13:40
i personaly do feel when the brakes are locked. Might be a FFB configuration?

hkraft300
29-09-2017, 14:01
IN PC2 it seems that this kind of effect is not available.
Yes, the sound helps you but you feel nothing on the wheel.


The wheel acts like a real steering wheel.
It doesn't "shake" or do anything fake to give you some grip feel.
There is definitely brake lock and oversteer feel in PC2. Try a track with elevation changes like Algarve and lock the brakes slightly. When it's not aggressive and you lock one wheel, you can tell which wheel is sliding. That's how good ffb is in PC2.

Also turn off ABS.

Ciccina2016
29-09-2017, 14:18
The wheel acts like a real steering wheel.
It doesn't "shake" or do anything fake to give you some grip feel.
There is definitely brake lock and oversteer feel in PC2. Try a track with elevation changes like Algarve and lock the brakes slightly. When it's not aggressive and you lock one wheel, you can tell which wheel is sliding. That's how good ffb is in PC2.

Also turn off ABS.

I don't think it is fake at all, if you lose grip on the anterior you should feel it on the wheel.
No grip means sliding traction and therefore vibration generated on the wheel how can you define fake a simple principle of Physics...

hkraft300
29-09-2017, 14:26
...
No grip means sliding traction and therefore vibration generated on the wheel how can you define fake a simple principle of Physics...

It's not a simple principle of physics. Have you ever locked the brakes of a real car with/without abs?

The steering wheel of a real car will "vibrate" only if the abs is triggered, and it's from the rapid oscillation at the suspension generated by the high frequency gain-loss-gain of grip as the abs modulates brake pressure.

Because sliding friction < rolling friction at the front tires, the steering in a non-abs car (race car, vintage, open wheel/LMP car etc) actually go light (loose) when the front wheels lock. Which means there is actually less "ffb" when the front wheels lock.

When you lock one wheel, that wheel has less grip than the rolling wheel. The steering will pull to the side because one side has more grip than the other.

Ciccina2016
29-09-2017, 14:43
It's not a simple principle of physics. Have you ever locked the brakes of a real car with/without abs?

The steering wheel of a real car will "vibrate" only if the abs is triggered, and it's from the rapid oscillation at the suspension generated by the high frequency gain-loss-gain of grip as the abs modulates brake pressure.

Because sliding friction < rolling friction at the front tires, the steering in a non-abs car (race car, vintage, open wheel/LMP car etc) actually go light (loose) when the front wheels lock. Which means there is actually less "ffb" when the front wheels lock.

When you lock one wheel, that wheel has less grip than the rolling wheel. The steering will pull to the side because one side has more grip than the other.

Thanks for your explanation , however I think you are not right , in my scenario I drive the car with NO ABS and I am locking the front tyres.
This will be the opposite scenario sliding friction > rolling friction.
In this case the front tyres will generate vibration on the suspension and hence to the wheel.

Grijo
29-09-2017, 15:32
Hello guys

a question regarding how the FFB has been implemented in PC2.

I have been playing Assetto Corsa a lot and when I brake and lock the anterior, I can feel the vibration on the steering wheel.
This is really cool as I can understand if I am breaking over the limit.

IN PC2 it seems that this kind of effect is not available.
Yes, the sound helps you but you feel nothing on the wheel.


Is this a bug or is it designed like this?
Is this happening with other steering wheels as well? Or is it console related?

Thank you

@Ciccina2016, I can feel thru my G29 wheel when Im locking the brake. Im using the following settings:

Flavour = Informative
Gain = 100
Volume = 35
Tone = 50
FX = 70

I dont know if this will help you to feel exactly what youre expecting but yes, I can feel the vibration when the car is locking the brakes.

Ciccina2016
29-09-2017, 16:32
@Ciccina2016, I can feel thru my G29 wheel when Im locking the brake. Im using the following settings:

Flavour = Informative
Gain = 100
Volume = 35
Tone = 50
FX = 70

I dont know if this will help you to feel exactly what youre expecting but yes, I can feel the vibration when the car is locking the brakes.

Just come back at home.. let me test it :) and thank you very much for sharing the settings

Grijo
29-09-2017, 16:49
Just come back at home.. let me test it :) and thank you very much for sharing the settings

Youre welcome my friend, I hope it helps :)

Ciccina2016
29-09-2017, 16:50
@Ciccina2016, I can feel thru my G29 wheel when Im locking the brake. Im using the following settings:

Flavour = Informative
Gain = 100
Volume = 35
Tone = 50
FX = 70

I dont know if this will help you to feel exactly what youre expecting but yes, I can feel the vibration when the car is locking the brakes.

just tried and I only feel the steering wheel becoming lighter..
would you mind sharing all the settings ?

Grijo
29-09-2017, 16:58
just tried and I only feel the steering wheel becoming lighter..
would you mind sharing all the settings ?

Really? Strange...can I ask what car and track did you used for the testing, only for curiosity...

No problem, I can share, but only when I get home, Im at work right now. But I think I didnt changed anything else besides deadzone...

Ciccina2016
29-09-2017, 17:23
Really? Strange...can I ask what car and track did you used for the testing, only for curiosity...

No problem, I can share, but only when I get home, Im at work right now. But I think I didnt changed anything else besides deadzone...

I tried the 911 gt3 r 24h at the Zhuhai International Circuit.

I can feel the FFB when approaching the corner and shifting up which is cool but if force the break , I would expect vibration on the wheel

Grijo
29-09-2017, 17:25
I tried the 911 gt3 r 24h at the Zhuhai International Circuit.

I can feel the FFB when approaching the corner and shifting up which is cool but if force the break , I would expect vibration on the wheel

Please, try the same car at Red Bull Ring and tell me if you feel different...

Madwak55
29-09-2017, 17:30
In AC the vibration when locking the wheels is a canned effect that you can turn on or off and adjust from what I remember?

Ciccina2016
29-09-2017, 17:52
Please, try the same car at Red Bull Ring and tell me if you feel different...

zero vibration.. i give up :D

Ciccina2016
29-09-2017, 17:53
yes, it is called ffb road i believe

sirio994
29-09-2017, 18:56
I'm waiting for the patch to fully test ffb. I believe is one of those effects covered by the bug...

If you lock your wheels straight the effect is still in the sadly famous ffb deadzone...

Ciccina2016
29-09-2017, 21:39
I'm waiting for the patch to fully test ffb. I believe is one of those effects covered by the bug...

If you lock your wheels straight the effect is still in the sadly famous ffb deadzone...

that would be really cool, are we getting a fix for the ffb?

hkraft300
29-09-2017, 22:45
... , in my scenario I drive the car with NO ABS and I am locking the front tyres.
This will be the opposite scenario sliding friction > rolling friction.
In this case the front tyres will generate vibration on the suspension and hence to the wheel.

No.
For tires on tarmac, grip of rolling tire is always greater than grip of sliding tire. That is physics. That is real life. That fact does not change.

That is the reason systems such as ABS and Traction Control limit the sliding of the tire rubber on the tarmac surface.

When front tires are rolling, there is a resistance to change of direction (due to suspension geometry and caster angle). When front tires slides (understeer/ brake lock), there is less resistance (grip) from the front tires to change direction. This makes it easier to turn the steering wheel = "light" steering = less ffb at the moment front tires are sliding.
Not "vibration".

Go drive a go kart. Lock the brakes. Find out how much "vibration" the sliding tires cause. They have no suspension so you should feel all the sliding tire vibration :glee:

Fake ffb effects of a sim you enjoy =/= physics.

Ciccina2016
30-09-2017, 06:36
No.
For tires on tarmac, grip of rolling tire is always greater than grip of sliding tire. That is physics. That is real life. That fact does not change.

That is the reason systems such as ABS and Traction Control limit the sliding of the tire rubber on the tarmac surface.

When front tires are rolling, there is a resistance to change of direction (due to suspension geometry and caster angle). When front tires slides (understeer/ brake lock), there is less resistance (grip) from the front tires to change direction. This makes it easier to turn the steering wheel = "light" steering = less ffb at the moment front tires are sliding.
Not "vibration".

Go drive a go kart. Lock the brakes. Find out how much "vibration" the sliding tires cause. They have no suspension so you should feel all the sliding tire vibration :glee:

Fake ffb effects of a sim you enjoy =/= physics.

I appreciate your point of view, I would like to hear from other sim racers about this?

hkraft300
30-09-2017, 07:16
I appreciate your point of view, I would like to hear from other sim racers about this?

Lol
Don't ask a REAL racer :glee:

Ciccina2016
30-09-2017, 07:46
Lol
Don't ask a REAL racer :glee:

Did I upset you ??? you said your point of view , thank you very much for your detailed response ( which I disagree)
I would like to hear by other gamers ( is it better ?)



cheers

Dereenigne
30-09-2017, 08:01
Funnily enough that effect of locking up the brakes was in pcars1 but was a bug that showed itself randomly, you'd get a yellow line on the FFB graph, it did actually feel nice sometimes as you have some extra information about what going on under the wheels but it wasn't calculated by the physics.

I suppose its like saying, what made that effect happen?
well it was pressing the brakes too hard and not that the tyres lost grip.....something like that anyway :)

hkraft300
30-09-2017, 08:10
Did I upset you ???

Not at all.

Ciccina2016
30-09-2017, 09:04
Funnily enough that effect of locking up the brakes was in pcars1 but was a bug that showed itself randomly, you'd get a yellow line on the FFB graph, it did actually feel nice sometimes as you have some extra information about what going on under the wheels but it wasn't calculated by the physics.

I suppose its like saying, what made that effect happen?
well it was pressing the brakes too hard and not that the tyres lost grip.....something like that anyway :)

yeah, that effect is not a bug, Assetto Corsa has the effect as standard FFB behaviour. it is really useful to break over the limit

sirio994
30-09-2017, 14:40
I woudn't describe it as a vibration, but you can feel it in a real kart. In AC you can even feel the smallest lock, i feel it from the wheel too in PC2 but it has to be a massive lock.

I would wait, i'm using a G29 on PS4, so it's the worst combination of all. FFB is weak and has a deadzone. Many things could be in the FFB but i can't feel them as i should at the moment (until they'll fix it)

sirio994
30-09-2017, 14:50
To make it more clear. In PC2 (G29/PS4 at the moment) compared to other games and real life the most of the ffb (if not at all) comes from sound and visuals.

Besides the wheel, the bug and so. It's hard to agree on this. In real life effects like locked wheels, wheel spin and loss of traction you imagine to feel them by your wheel.

But when you think about it, most of the feedback comes from your seat/butt...

In a real kart you feel the lock more "under" you than throgh your hands...

hkraft300
30-09-2017, 15:10
...
But when you think about it, most of the feedback comes from your seat/butt...

In a real kart you feel the lock more "under" you than throgh your hands...

Exactly.

Ciccina2016
30-09-2017, 18:37
FFB is weak and has a deadzone. Many things could be in the FFB but i can't feel them as i should at the moment (until they'll fix it)

I agree with you, let's hope they do something however I am a little bit sceptical.

Ciccina2016
03-10-2017, 07:56
Lol
Don't ask a REAL racer :glee:

Dear hkraft300 , this is Stefano Castillo owner and main developer of Assetto Corsa talking about the FFB effects which have been implemented in the game to give us the most realistic experience.

This is the video and from 30m04s he starts talking about the FFB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miR3_FnsfSo&t=30m04s

At 31:50 he talks abous the vibration caused by tyres losing grip on the asphalt.

So I don't need to ask a REAL Racer, tyres sliding or ( rolling friction <sliding friction) cause vibration on the wheel.

The main issue is that the majority of racing gamers got used to this effects and some of them have not been implemented on PC2 ,hence, the disappointment.

LukeC
03-10-2017, 08:11
Dear hkraft300 , this is Stefano Castillo owner and main developer of Assetto Corsa talking about the FFB effects which have been implemented in the game to give us the most realistic experience.

This is the video and from 30m04s he starts talking about the FFB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miR3_FnsfSo&t=30m04s

At 31:50 he talks abous the vibration caused by tyres losing grip on the asphalt.

So I don't need to ask a REAL Racer, tyres sliding or ( rolling friction <sliding friction) cause vibration on the wheel.

The main issue is that the majority of racing gamers got used to this effects and some of them have not been implemented on PC2 ,hence, the disappointment.

Codies did the vibration thing to communicate tyre slip in F1 2017 and its absolutely glorious. I love the feeling I get through the wheel when I'm braking and turning and the outside tyres are loaded and underrotating just ever so slightly. And the feeling I get through the wheel when putting power down and the tyres are fighting for traction is something else.

I would love it if Pcars 2 gave us similar effects with the addition of another couple of sliders, or maybe even just one would suffice.

Ciccina2016
03-10-2017, 08:16
Shall we create a big fat case to SMS begging for adding it?? I AM IN :p

LukeC
03-10-2017, 08:20
Shall we create a big fat case to SMS begging for adding it?? I AM IN :p

Feel free to create a thread. I will definitely add my support.

Dereenigne
03-10-2017, 08:31
All that stuff was in pcars1 but because it was just an effect and wasnt physics based it was removed.

Why would they put it back in?

Personally i really liked the slight pull on the steering wheel when changing gear :)

LukeC
03-10-2017, 08:38
All that stuff was in pcars1 but because it was just an effect and wasnt physics based it was removed.

Why would they put it back in?

Personally i really liked the slight pull on the steering wheel when changing gear :)

I don't see any barriers to making it physics based. In F1 2017 it feels as though it could be physics based, although it probably isn't. But to me in F1 2017 it doesn't feel intrusive or unnatural at all. On the contrary, it makes the driving more sensuous somehow, and most importantly it allows me to feel the limit of grip and traction and consequently I'm able to squeeze the ultimate performance out of the car. Or at least it makes me feel as though ive squeezed the maximum out, which is very rewarding and satisfying.

Ciccina2016
03-10-2017, 08:51
All that stuff was in pcars1 but because it was just an effect and wasnt physics based it was removed.

Why would they put it back in?

Personally i really liked the slight pull on the steering wheel when changing gear :)

What I am talking about has nothing to do with PC1 . I am talking about Assetto Corsa FFB additional effects which are a recognized benchmark for other simulators.
Watch the video I posted a couple of messages above.