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Tose
30-09-2017, 09:54
Hello guys,

can someone explain to me penalty system? Im playing authentic/realistic setups. Problem is, im still getting penalty and i have to go through box (Engineer also tell me in last lap, is there other signal?). I tried race superclean and yet i got penalty coz someone else bump into me. Another isssue is start from formation lap. AI is stupid! For example, im starting first, second one overtake me and start pushing like in race lap. Like bonus, sometimes, he bump me from behind and i got 5sec ...

Sorry for english, thanks for help.

Have nice day :)

wolowizzard
30-09-2017, 13:29
Yeah, got that to in the warm-up lap. I'm going in a wide line, so the AI besides me has plenty of space, but at the exit of a tight corner (last one at Snetterton 200/300) he constantly bumps me from the side, without any need. Of course the penalty is given to me...

mister dog
04-10-2017, 21:50
I'm tempted to turn off the penalty system now. The track limit triggers and penalties I find pretty good overall but the race director penalties don't make no sense half of the time. Get hit from the back for example and you get the warning/penalty, weird calls afterwards to give back positions to cars who already crashed out behind you stuff like that . It isn't very optimized yet and it has a tendency to ruin your race all too often whilst you did nothing wrong.

mister dog
04-11-2017, 15:56
Racing online yesterday it happened again; we were at classic Hockenheim 2 guys touch and spin out of the track in front of me, I come flying in at full speed one of them rejoins the circuit like a hooligan without checking his mirrors and I have to avoid contact and drive over the grass.

"Hand position x back in 30 seconds" the game says :rolleyes:... So I slow down and it takes a while for the guy to catch up he bloody passes me at 31 seconds and I get a +30 seconds penalty added. Quite frustrating this.

You shouldn't be penalized for avoiding spinners, and handing back the position to people who span or crashed out is silly too as they take a minute to get back on the track and catch up to you.

sisollazzo
04-11-2017, 16:02
Racing online yesterday it happened again; we were at classic Hockenheim 2 guys touch and spin out of the track in front of me, I come flying in at full speed one of them rejoins the circuit like a hooligan without checking his mirrors and I have to avoid contact and drive over the grass.

"Hand position x back in 30 seconds" the game says :rolleyes:... So I slow down and it takes a while for the guy to catch up he bloody passes me at 31 seconds and I get a +30 seconds penalty added. Quite frustrating this.

You shouldn't be penalized for avoiding spinners, and handing back the position to people who span or crashed out is silly too as they take a minute to get back on the track and catch up to you.

I've the same problem. If you survive a START you are already a champion.
The ranking system should be improved, BUT it is very good that we have one!
Good job SMS!!!:)

Zaskarspants
04-11-2017, 16:03
The race director appears to ignore the bad driving by the AI.

ZulfoDK
04-11-2017, 16:03
Racing online yesterday it happened again; we were at classic Hockenheim 2 guys touch and spin out of the track in front of me, I come flying in at full speed one of them rejoins the circuit like a hooligan without checking his mirrors and I have to avoid contact and drive over the grass.

"Hand position x back in 30 seconds" the game says :rolleyes:... So I slow down and it takes a while for the guy to catch up he bloody passes me at 31 seconds and I get a +30 seconds penalty added. Quite frustrating this.

You shouldn't be penalized for avoiding spinners, and handing back the position to people who span or crashed out is silly too as they take a minute to get back on the track and catch up to you.

Oh I hate this, getting penalised for trying to avoid players that have crashed! And having to wait to give the positions back to an idiot that chose to ram his way through the first corner!?

The game should know who just were in an accident/crash, and if the person that I pass has a penalty when I try and avoid him, don't make me give him his position back!

ARNAGEist
04-11-2017, 18:58
Being penalised for others crashing in front of you is bad enough but having others crash in front of you during the warm up lap is even worse.
I've seen it a few times, mostly on sessions that I joined at the last moment and didn't set a time(I should try to take it more seriously but sometimes it's fun just to jump in knowing there's no time left to qualify) if others crash on the warmup lap you have to wait for them to get back on track etc etc etc you can still get a penalty for them not doing it quick enough, then just to add insult you get a warning for being too far behind the leader(no win situation) once I got fed up waiting after so many crashes I just got on with it. I only then get disqualified for starting out of place.

One I saw today was being disqualified for crossing the start line before the race began errrr whaaaat!!!!!!! I didn't see a countdown clock anywhere:confused:

It's so broken it's unreal

ZulfoDK
05-11-2017, 08:06
Being penalised for others crashing in front of you is bad enough but having others crash in front of you during the warm up lap is even worse.
I've seen it a few times, mostly on sessions that I joined at the last moment and didn't set a time(I should try to take it more seriously but sometimes it's fun just to jump in knowing there's no time left to qualify) if others crash on the warmup lap you have to wait for them to get back on track etc etc etc you can still get a penalty for them not doing it quick enough, then just to add insult you get a warning for being too far behind the leader(no win situation) once I got fed up waiting after so many crashes I just got on with it. I only then get disqualified for starting out of place.

One I saw today was being disqualified for crossing the start line before the race began errrr whaaaat!!!!!!! I didn't see a countdown clock anywhere:confused:

It's so broken it's unreal

Yeah, there are some "bumps on the road" :)

I has a little spin on Mulsane in qualifying, and pause and chose "return to pit" or what ever it says, and it HURLS me back to the pits, me up side down in the pit, with a "DISQUALIFYED FOR SPEEDING IN PITS" !

WTF... I just exited the race, and reentered.

Plato99
05-11-2017, 08:37
The race director appears to ignore the bad driving by the AI.

It happens in real life too.
Look at Honda in the BTCC......

rich1e I
05-11-2017, 13:36
Racing online yesterday it happened again; we were at classic Hockenheim 2 guys touch and spin out of the track in front of me, I come flying in at full speed one of them rejoins the circuit like a hooligan without checking his mirrors and I have to avoid contact and drive over the grass.

"Hand position x back in 30 seconds" the game says :rolleyes:... So I slow down and it takes a while for the guy to catch up he bloody passes me at 31 seconds and I get a +30 seconds penalty added. Quite frustrating this.

You shouldn't be penalized for avoiding spinners, and handing back the position to people who span or crashed out is silly too as they take a minute to get back on the track and catch up to you.

I think the system was absolutely right. The guy who rejoined was back on track, you left the track and overtook him. It wasn't just in your case, sure, but we'd need an AI as race director to differentiate. Same principle would be the spotter calling that a car is next to me in the pits or during formation lap, which makes no sense because I don't need that information. I think it's just part of the "mechanism" and there's nothing we can do about it, and I think you'd be glad if someone gets a penalty for leaving the track and overtaking you, wouldn't you?

snakehands
05-11-2017, 13:59
Racing online yesterday it happened again; we were at classic Hockenheim 2 guys touch and spin out of the track in front of me, I come flying in at full speed one of them rejoins the circuit like a hooligan without checking his mirrors and I have to avoid contact and drive over the grass.

"Hand position x back in 30 seconds" the game says :rolleyes:... So I slow down and it takes a while for the guy to catch up he bloody passes me at 31 seconds and I get a +30 seconds penalty added. Quite frustrating this.

You shouldn't be penalized for avoiding spinners, and handing back the position to people who span or crashed out is silly too as they take a minute to get back on the track and catch up to you.

You should have slowed down.

cjhill44
05-11-2017, 14:19
I have just found another annoying bug related to the penalty system!

In a C1 race at classic Hockenheim

A few races ago I turned off auto pit because in a race at Daytona road course the auto pit drove past my pit box before trying to back up, failing miserably and eventually retiring to garage!

So from then on I decided to put myself in control

This time I was going to do a driver swap in the pits. I came into the pits at 33mph before the AI took over ( which shouldn't happen at this point(and immediately accelerated to over the speed limit. They did it again on exit resulting in a 50 second penalty!!!

I hope there is a way to turn off pit road penalties because I'm going to have to do that until SMS sort their stuff out!

mister dog
05-11-2017, 17:35
I think the system was absolutely right. The guy who rejoined was back on track, you left the track and overtook him.
No. People crashing out and spinning, then driving back on the track without paying attention to cars coming up behind them should not get the advantage here. Basically the game wants me to crash into them as long as I don't leave the track with an evasive maneuver. The game should recognize crashers and spinners and then exempt them from generating penalties on folk that are avoiding their mayhem.


You should have slowed down.
Bit difficult if that happens in a blind right hander at 300k's...

snakehands
05-11-2017, 17:41
No. People crashing out and spinning, then driving back on the track without paying attention to cars coming up behind them should not get the advantage here. Basically the game wants me to crash into them as long as I don't leave the track with an evasive maneuver. The game should recognize crashers and spinners and then exempt them from generating penalties on folk that are avoiding their mayhem.


Bit difficult if that happens in a blind right hander at 300k's...

So he couldn’t see you coming then? What angle did he rejoin?

mister dog
05-11-2017, 17:52
So he couldn’t see you coming then? What angle did he rejoin?
Nah didn't watch his mirrors and drove back on the track coming from the sides in a 90 degree angle. That's something that happens all the time in online races sadly :(

snakehands
05-11-2017, 18:11
Nah didn't watch his mirrors and drove back on the track coming from the sides in a 90 degree angle. That's something that happens all the time in online races sadly :(

90 degrees is a bad angle to rejoin on, unless there’s nothing coming and you’ve checked by actually looking because your mirrors will tell you nothing. ;)

rich1e I
05-11-2017, 18:46
No. People crashing out and spinning, then driving back on the track without paying attention to cars coming up behind them should not get the advantage here. Basically the game wants me to crash into them as long as I don't leave the track with an evasive maneuver. The game should recognize crashers and spinners and then exempt them from generating penalties on folk that are avoiding their mayhem.


Bit difficult if that happens in a blind right hander at 300k's...

I'm not saying it was just. The penalty system did what it's supposed to do. There was a guy on track and another guy overtook him while being off track. You'd need a super AI that takes into account that the guy forced you off track by rejoining unsafely. We don't have such an AI and I think it's not easy to create something like that. Next time another guy overtakes you by going off track and cutting a corner. This guy will hopefully have to give the position back to you. I think most of the time the penalty system does its job, sometimes strange cases happen. Your case was one those.

In PC1 sometimes it happened that one car pushed another car off track causing it to get a time penalty. Absolutely unjust, of course, but in my view removing that penalty system because it can't be 100% just, is the wrong approach. The system still penalized corner cutter most of the times, as long as track limits were well defined.

bradleyland
05-11-2017, 18:53
No. People crashing out and spinning, then driving back on the track without paying attention to cars coming up behind them should not get the advantage here. Basically the game wants me to crash into them as long as I don't leave the track with an evasive maneuver. The game should recognize crashers and spinners and then exempt them from generating penalties on folk that are avoiding their mayhem.

No, it does not. The game expects you to remain on circuit. Period. You don’t have to stop, but if you reduce speed, you gain maneuverability so you can drive around.

The penalty system in pCARS reflects actual racing. When a racer goes off circuit, hey have an obligation to re-enter safely. Other drivers have an obligation to drive with caution in the region of the incident.

If you came “flying in at full speed” then you failed to use caution. The result is that you went off circuit and triggered a penalty. Solution: reduce speed when you see an incident ahead.

I realize that this can be frustrating when you come from a non-motorsports background, but this is racecraft 101, and those of us who want an accurate sim racing environment have been begging for this for a long time.

If there is any improvement to be made, I would like to see the penalty system enforce rules for re-entering the circuit. For example, maximum entry angle should be enforced. If you enter the circuit at 90 degrees when a car is approaching within 300 meters (just an example), you should receive a safety infraction. If it results in contact, you should get a DQ.

Another improvement would be to enforce a “no passing” rule under local yellow. IMO, this is the biggest opportunity for improvement. This wold allow racers to slow for incidents without risking being overtaken by their players with poor racecraft.

mister dog
05-11-2017, 19:15
The penalty system in pCARS reflects actual racing. When a racer goes off circuit, hey have an obligation to re-enter safely. Other drivers have an obligation to drive with caution in the region of the incident.
Where is that registered by the game exactly? People can just rejoin unsafely at the moment without any consequences and the one that has to avoid and pass is the one under scrutiny...



If you came “flying in at full speed” then you failed to use caution. The result is that you went off circuit and triggered a penalty. Solution: reduce speed when you see an incident ahead.
I see you didn't bother to read the rest of my posts.., I already mentioned it was in a fast sweeper. You think it's obvious to see spinners ahead in a fast right hander in the middle of the bloody forest and have the time to scrub off enough speed and position yourself somewhere on the circuit where they might not rejoin?



I realize that this can be frustrating when you come from a non-motorsports background, but this is racecraft 101, and those of us who want an accurate sim racing environment have been begging for this for a long time.
Spare me the 'racecraft 101' please, have you ever seen people being penalized for avoiding crashing cars in front of them, and the race director saying they should hand back the position? :rolleyes:

rich1e I
05-11-2017, 19:26
Do we have a flag system? I must admit I really don't know, and can't remember having seen a yellow flag once since release of PC2. A yellow flag would've warned you and you could've slowed down a bit.

snakehands
05-11-2017, 19:47
Where is that registered by the game exactly? People can just rejoin unsafely at the moment without any consequences and the one that has to avoid and pass is the one under scrutiny...


I see you didn't bother to read the rest of my posts.., I already mentioned it was in a fast sweeper. You think it's obvious to see spinners ahead in a fast right hander in the middle of the bloody forest and have the time to scrub off enough speed and position yourself somewhere on the circuit where they might not rejoin?


Spare me the 'racecraft 101' please, have you ever seen people being penalized for avoiding crashing cars in front of them, and the race director saying they should hand back the position? :rolleyes:

Someone else who expects the system to be as good as a human manned system. It’s delusional to expect Charlie Whiting, a load of marshals and race stewards to direct everyone’s online race.

mister dog
05-11-2017, 19:59
Someone else who expects the system to be as good as a human manned system. It’s delusional to expect Charlie Whiting, a load of marshals and race stewards to direct everyone’s online race.
There are ways to code it so people that crash or spin out get into a different status (look at how GTS recognizes that for example and then proceeds to ghost those cars). If the game recognizes such an event and the cars involved in it, and then nullifies penalties for others passing those cars for the first 5 seconds after those cars rejoin the track it could work out.

Also @rich1e I ; I don't recall having seen a yellow flag then and I also didn't see them much in all of the online racing I did so far (and for sure there were many crashes and spins up ahead). So maybe the flag implementation needs some attention too perhaps.

bradleyland
05-11-2017, 20:03
Where is that registered by the game exactly? People can just rejoin unsafely at the moment without any consequences and the one that has to avoid and pass is the one under scrutiny...

OK, so endeavors to reflect actual racing. Is that qualifier sufficient for you? I also acknowledged that a re-entry penalty would be a great improvement. That would allow you to enter a local yellow with at least the confidence that someone isn't going to drive across the circuit without significant penalty.


I see you didn't bother to read the rest of my posts.., I already mentioned it was in a fast sweeper. You think it's obvious to see spinners ahead in a fast right hander in the middle of the bloody forest and have the time to scrub off enough speed and position yourself somewhere on the circuit where they might not rejoin?

I did read the rest of your posts. Not every contact can be avoided, but not every penalty can be enforced either. If someone goes off circuit, you get the yellow flag indicator almost immediately. It's time to slow down and use caution at that point.


Spare me the 'racecraft 101' please, have you ever seen people being penalized for avoiding crashing cars in front of them, and the race director saying they should hand back the position? :rolleyes:

Spare me the "world is set against me and I can't help it" please. This is a computer system. Until we can afford professional, human stewards, we all have to play within the confines of an automated system, and an automated system is going to have a really hard time sorting out the situation you're talking about. The best solution is to establish clear rules: if you gain a position while off-circuit, you must return the position.

mister dog
05-11-2017, 20:08
Spare me the "world is set against me and I can't help it" please. This is a computer system. Until we can afford professional, human stewards, we all have to play within the confines of an automated system, and an automated system is going to have a really hard time sorting out the situation you're talking about. The best solution is to establish clear rules: if you gain a position while off-circuit, you must return the position.
Yeah right; this feature still needs work and is causing irritating penalties at the moment, but we should all come to accept that and not whine like 'the whole world is against us' because it's a automated system and there's no way to improve it? Sigh...

Let's lock up the forum then as we can use that line in every thread.

bradleyland
05-11-2017, 20:10
There are ways to code it so people that crash or spin out get into a different status (look at how GTS recognizes that for example and then proceeds to ghost those cars). If the game recognizes such an event and the cars involved in it, and then nullifies penalties for others passing those cars for the first 5 seconds after those cars rejoin the track it could work out.

The GTS system is a compromise. The shortcoming is that with this mechanic, you can purposefully push the guy in front of you off circuit and get free pass.

Also, are you certain that the GTS system allows you to pass while you are off-circuit, even if the other cars are ghosted?


Also @rich1e I ; I don't recall having seen a yellow flag then and I also didn't see them much in all of the online racing I did so far (and for sure there were many crashes and spins up ahead). So maybe the flag implementation needs some attention too perhaps.

It's entirely possible that the flag system is still buggy. I play a mix of AC and pCARS 2, so I can't recall specifically how good the flag system in pCARS 2 is right now. It wouldn't surprise me if it needed improvement.

I stand by the assertion that passing any incident "off-circuit" is a behavior that should be frowned upon. In one of last year's IMSA CTSC races, two factors came together to cause a pretty serious incident:

An ST car had an off, and re-entered the circuit at an angle that actually had them going the opposite direction of traffic.

Other cars passing by were under a double-yellow, but they weren't slowing down.

There were a boat load of penalties handed out. The stewards determined that the racer who had the off failed to re-enter safely, and three other drivers were given warnings because they failed to use caution.

Now granted, they weren't required to give their place back, but a human steward can make an assessment that computer stewards cannot. I am not in favor of a codified system of "exceptions" to off-circuit penalties, because players will exploit them.

Also, don't we have the option to ghost cars already? That seems like it would have helped in this situation.

snakehands
05-11-2017, 20:11
Yeah right; this feature still needs work and is causing irritating penalties at the moment, but we should all come to accept that and not whine like 'the whole world is against us' because it's a automated system and there's no way to improve it? Sigh...

Let's lock up the forum then as we can use that line in every thread.

Show me a video of GTS dealing with a similar incident

bradleyland
05-11-2017, 20:12
Yeah right; this feature still needs work and is causing irritating penalties at the moment, but we should all come to accept that and not whine like 'the whole world is against us' because it's a automated system and there's no way to improve it? Sigh...

Let's lock up the forum then as we can use that line in every thread.

It can be improved. We just disagree in what is considered an improvement. I am very opposed to mechanics that can be exploited.

I also think that, based on your description, it's possible that you bear more responsibility than you're accepting.

snakehands
05-11-2017, 20:22
Show me a video of GTS dealing with a similar incident

This what you want: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fQlT7puT9XM

mister dog
05-11-2017, 20:26
Also, are you certain that the GTS system allows you to pass while you are off-circuit, even if the other cars are ghosted?
There is no need to go off circuit and avoid a crash when you can just drive through them. Ghosting is a bit of a drastic option though, I'd already be happy not having to hand positions back to people who crashed out right in front of me and still needs an additional minute to get back up to speed.

bradleyland
05-11-2017, 21:40
There is no need to go off circuit and avoid a crash when you can just drive through them. Ghosting is a bit of a drastic option though, I'd already be happy not having to hand positions back to people who crashed out right in front of me and still needs an additional minute to get back up to speed.

Yeah, ghosting has its ups and downs. I thought it was (optionally) available in pCARS already though.

The only time you have to give a position back is if you also go off circuit. If you disable track boundaries penalties in the proximity of a crash, you create a terrible incentive.

Imagine this scenario: Player A and player B are running 3rd and 4th respectively at Monza, on lap 6 of 7. They are battling and are 1.3 seconds off 2nd place. Player B is slightly faster, but is unable to pass cleanly.

Coming down the start/finish straight toward T1, player B decides he’s had too much frustration. He bumps player A in the T1 braking zone. Player A goes off, disabling track limits penalties for passing in the area. Player B drives through the chicane, taking 3rd place, and gaining 0.7 on 2nd place.

If you don’t think people will take advantage of that, you’re nuts.

mister dog
05-11-2017, 22:52
Imagine this scenario: Player A and player B are running 3rd and 4th respectively at Monza, on lap 6 of 7. They are battling and are 1.3 seconds off 2nd place. Player B is slightly faster, but is unable to pass cleanly.

Coming down the start/finish straight toward T1, player B decides he’s had too much frustration. He bumps player A in the T1 braking zone. Player A goes off, disabling track limits penalties for passing in the area. Player B drives through the chicane, taking 3rd place, and gaining 0.7 on 2nd place.

If you don’t think people will take advantage of that, you’re nuts.
Hitting folk up the back affects your rating, and I'm pretty sure any decent lobby host would kick someone who keeps on bumping others of track as a form of 'strategy'. This situation is also preventable by disabling the 'non penalty' behavior for player B if he was the cause of player A going off track (game registered the contact beforehand between the 2 parties).

Anyhow this part of the penalty system needs addressing IMO as I've had it occur far to many times both offline and online.

Herege
05-11-2017, 23:30
Some kind of rant..., I do not come here to complain, but sometimes we are forced to this, and now it is my turn to do so. I come from pcars1, and pcars2 really demoralizes us to stay online.:mad:

I ended up playing Online right now, which is where I want to play and spend most of the time with this game, but from now on I'm seriously thinking of playing Online, which for me start to doubt the continuity of playing this title for me. People who think that if they win races by pushing others, hardly anyone is cautious about braking, especially after the start and the first corner. I have already taken the attitude of starting last when possible, but it is a lost case, there is always someone who spoils the race and then leaves, or the track outside or outside the server. The underdog is always me seeing my score reduce and frustrated every time I play, with very few exceptions.

This can not continue like this, the most penalized are those who try to have a clean session. This is frustrating. Something has to be done, or for me it will end unfortunately. Patience is ending the online behaviors, and especially with the system in question, which continues to penalize the same or worse than those who cause problems.

cheers

Interchangeable
06-11-2017, 10:21
Coming down the start/finish straight toward T1, player B decides he’s had too much frustration. He bumps player A in the T1 braking zone. Player A goes off, disabling track limits penalties for passing in the area. Player B drives through the chicane, taking 3rd place, and gaining 0.7 on 2nd place.



But if you're player C (In P4) in that situation and player A or B is blocking the road, making you go off track to safely avoid them, you shouldn't be getting a penalty or made to give the place for that like I have many of times because you have done the correct thing by leaving the track instead of crashing into the side of them.

However, if you do gain an advantage then the game should detect that but 8 out of 10 times you'll be going over grass which will slow the car down.

Interchangeable
06-11-2017, 10:25
I also got a penalty yesterday for a car that locked up and went straight on at the last turn at Oulton causing a yellow. I was made to give the place back which in my eyes is incorrect.

rich1e I
06-11-2017, 12:49
I think most of the time the system penalizes the right person. Sometimes you're forced to leave the track to avoid a collision, unfortunately the system doesn't differentiate. It can be frustrating but I think we just have to accept that. We don't know how much time SMS coders put into the penalty system. I guess it's not something you do between lunch and tea time.
It clearly needs some tweaks and improvements. I myself have seen people redefining whole tracks by taking crazy lines and getting away with it, which led to the question if there's any penalty system at all at the moment. I haven't seen one single yellow flag so far, or at least I can't remember having seen one, so there are clearly things that need to be reviewed.

I'm a person who likes to speak his mind and give honest opinions, and some people might think I'm a rude and grumpy person, but I think it's very unfair criticizing the current penalty system for not being 100% accurate and just.

Interchangeable
06-11-2017, 12:56
I think most of the time the system penalizes the right person. Sometimes you're forced to leave the track to avoid a collision, unfortunately the system doesn't differentiate. It can be frustrating but I think we just have to accept that. We don't know how much time SMS coders put into the penalty system. I guess it's not something you do between lunch and tea time.
It clearly needs some tweaks and improvements. I myself have seen people redefining whole tracks by taking crazy lines and getting away with it, which led to the question if there's any penalty system at all at the moment. I haven't seen one single yellow flag so far, or at least I can't remember having seen one, so there are clearly things that need to be reviewed.

I'm a person who likes to speak his mind and give honest opinions, and some people might think I'm a rude and grumpy person, but I think it's very unfair criticizing the current penalty system for not being 100% accurate and just.

There're more ground breaking bugs that need to be fixed first. While some penalties are annoying I'd much rather have the bugs fixed and then tweak the system.

It might be an idea to post videos on this topic so the dev's can see if they're being applied correctly. :) It's pretty easy now to get game DVR's windows 10 comes with one and both NVidia and AMD offer them.

Herege
06-11-2017, 16:33
Hi rich1e I, 100% accurate is impossible, or almost impossible, and I don't see anyone ask for a 100% effective system, it would be desirable, but far from it is possible. However, as long as there is something that is not correct and it affects most of the players online, even those who do not come here to "complain" about the system, these same ones have to be taken into consideration. Do not cry, it implies a passivity with what is wrong. It's not unfair, it's unfair to be evaluated by a system that is far from being fair to most players, and we do not need to walk around a lot to find serious players who complain about this problem. It's general. Of course a great deal has to be done until a balance is struck, but as it stands it is indeed demotivating and unfair for players, the clean ones.

edit: Imagine, happens to me yesterday, I start on the middle of the pack, at first turn in Monza I was pushing violently through two cars, I turned around, I got up like a madman and I ended up hitting 3 or 4 cars that circulated in the front and on the side, I ended up out on the grass and slamming hard on the edge of the track, imagine as I was, what I lost and I ended up leaving the server. Even after all this happened to me and lose points, I'm still penalized for leaving the server. LOL!

bradleyland
06-11-2017, 16:51
Why do 8 out of 10 descriptions of incidents where people are complaining about being unfairly treated actually sound like exactly how the system should work?

rich1e I
06-11-2017, 17:13
Hi rich1e I, 100% accurate is impossible, or almost impossible, and I don't see anyone ask for a 100% effective system, it would be desirable, but far from it is possible. However, as long as there is something that is not correct and it affects most of the players online, even those who do not come here to "complain" about the system, these same ones have to be taken into consideration. Do not cry, it implies a passivity with what is wrong. It's not unfair, it's unfair to be evaluated by a system that is far from being fair to most players, and we do not need to walk around a lot to find serious players who complain about this problem. It's general. Of course a great deal has to be done until a balance is struck, but as it stands it is indeed demotivating and unfair for players, the clean ones.

edit: Imagine, happens to me yesterday, I start on the middle of the pack, at first turn in Monza I was pushing violently through two cars, I turned around, I got up like a madman and I ended up hitting 3 or 4 cars that circulated in the front and on the side, I ended up out on the grass and slamming hard on the edge of the track, imagine as I was, what I lost and I ended up leaving the server. Even after all this happened to me and lose points, I'm still penalized for leaving the server. LOL!

All I can see is that you're frustrated. I can understand that, but I don't know if you got the point, and please do not insinuate you're some kind of ambassador of all players online. You say "most players are affected" but you don't know. I think it's more than probable that most players have experienced this kind of "injustice" at least once. The system detects players leaving the track and penalizes them for doing so, and if they overtake someone by going off track, even more. I think this is not the worst thing to have, would you agree on that? That's what the system does to discourage people from cheating and cutting corners.

I think it's no help if you describe situations. Post a video with said situation, that'd be much easier. Some penalties are just unfortunate and happen because I'm sure it's impossible to code a 100% just penalty system, because racing is just too dynamic and maybe also chaotic. Now you say it's "almost impossible" to create such a system, I really hope you have your application ready to send to SMS. I'm sure they'd pay you a lot of money!

Interchangeable
06-11-2017, 17:23
Why do 8 out of 10 descriptions of incidents where people are complaining about being unfairly treated actually sound like exactly how the system should work?

The main problem with the penalty is opinion. This is the same in real world racing. Of course everyone has one and sometimes they're correct but without evidence it's more sand than concrete. The only real way to know if the system is working correct or not is to use evidence not hearsay!

You also need to account the most of the people who PCARS 2 may not be motorsport fans or watchers on a regular bases, or different types of motorsport other than NASCAR or F1; so their opinion of what should get a penalty and what should could be skewed...

I mean F1 has a completely different penalty system than NASCAR.

mister dog
06-11-2017, 17:34
And still you shouldn't be forced to hand back positions to cars that crash or spin out in front of you, without you being involved in it (apart by avoiding the carnage).

That just doesn't happen in real life motorsports at all, so it shouldn't be an issue here neither.

Not sure why many of you would see this as an unreasonable demand.

BrandonWright77
06-11-2017, 17:36
and I'm pretty sure any decent lobby host would kick someone who keeps on bumping others of track as a form of 'strategy'.


Nope. Pretty sure the host has no way to kick someone from the server. Vote kick is the only option that I'm aware of.

mister dog
06-11-2017, 17:45
Nope. Pretty sure the host has no way to kick someone from the server. Vote kick is the only option that I'm aware of.
"And I'm pretty sure decent lobby folk would kick someone who keeps on bumping others of track as a form of 'strategy'"

There. Better now? :p

BrandonWright77
06-11-2017, 18:08
"And I'm pretty sure decent lobby folk would kick someone who keeps on bumping others of track as a form of 'strategy'"

There. Better now? :p


Probably more likely that they'll just leave and find a different server. ;)

bradleyland
06-11-2017, 18:25
Nope. Pretty sure the host has no way to kick someone from the server. Vote kick is the only option that I'm aware of.

On PS4 the lobby host can kick unilaterally. When we run lobbies on PS4, we quickly kick players who exhibit poor on-track etiquette. Happens at least 8-10 times per night.

bradleyland
06-11-2017, 18:37
And still you shouldn't be forced to hand back positions to cars that crash or spin out in front of you, without you being involved in it (apart by avoiding the carnage).

That just doesn't happen in real life motorsports at all, so it shouldn't be an issue here neither.

Not sure why many of you would see this as an unreasonable demand.

For the 100th time, you do not have to "hand back positions to cars that crash or spin out in front of you". You keep mischaracterizing an edge case as if it's the cancer killing pCARS 2. It's not.

Also, keep in mind that I don't disagree with you in principle. In actual motorsport, if a driver goes off circuit to avoid an incident on-circuit, the stewards are able to apply judgement. No one would penalize a driver for taking all available measures to avoid an incident.

The problem is that we don't have human stewards, and you grossly underestimate the difficulty in assessing the highly dynamic environment involved. The solutions you describe can be easily exploited.

I stand by my assertion that the best fix for the problem you describe is to enforce a "no passing" condition under local yellow. This would allow drivers to slow to whatever speed is necessary in order to avoid a collision, without the risk of being overtaken by a careless opponent.

bradleyland
06-11-2017, 18:41
Hitting folk up the back affects your rating, and I'm pretty sure any decent lobby host would kick someone who keeps on bumping others of track as a form of 'strategy'.

The entire point of the penalty system is to enforce regulations. What a human lobby host would do is irrelevant.


This situation is also preventable by disabling the 'non penalty' behavior for player B if he was the cause of player A going off track (game registered the contact beforehand between the 2 parties).

Determining whether player B was the "cause of player A going off track" is the hard part. You keep suggesting this as if it were some trivial matter. Do you not think that if it were possible to assign blame in a contact scenario, the penalty system wouldn't already do that?


Anyhow this part of the penalty system needs addressing IMO as I've had it occur far to many times both offline and online.

And I've had it happen to me exactly zero times. If it did happen to me, I would accept that it was a racing incident, and hope for better luck next time.

mister dog
06-11-2017, 18:52
For the 100th time, you do not have to "hand back positions to cars that crash or spin out in front of you". You keep mischaracterizing an edge case as if it's the cancer killing pCARS 2. It's not.
Please refrain from putting words in my mouth which I never said. Nobody apart from you is using those exaggerations here. We better stop going back and forth the whole time and bore the stuff out of people as we won't agree on the subject anyhow. So let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.



I stand by my assertion that the best fix for the problem you describe is to enforce a "no passing" condition under local yellow. This would allow drivers to slow to whatever speed is necessary in order to avoid a collision, without the risk of being overtaken by a careless opponent.
I'm all for a more efficient flag system and proper yellows would help overall for sure, but I'm talking about split second decisions here where the player that is coming up behind has it happening right in front of them (for example in the first lap when the cars are grouped), and he has to take an evasive maneuver in order to avoid a crash. I doubt yellow flags would help much in those situations as you need some time to see them and react.

But like I said, we better stop going around in circles now ;).

snakehands
06-11-2017, 19:02
And still you shouldn't be forced to hand back positions to cars that crash or spin out in front of you, without you being involved in it (apart by avoiding the carnage).

That just doesn't happen in real life motorsports at all, so it shouldn't be an issue here neither.

Not sure why many of you would see this as an unreasonable demand.

Never happened to me and I've passed a lot of cars that have left the track. If you're saying that an automated system should be 100% right 100% of the time then you expect too much.

mister dog
06-11-2017, 19:06
If you're saying that an automated system should be 100% right 100% of the time then you expect too much.
:rolleyes: Did I?

snakehands
06-11-2017, 19:09
:rolleyes: Did I?

Yes you do. It's never happened to me but I'll let you know if it does. I wonder how long I'll have to wait.

Interchangeable
06-11-2017, 19:11
Lets try not to bicker and lets be productive!:encouragement: If you see something that you personally feel needs addressing then video it and uploaded on to here in the necessary areas...

bradleyland
06-11-2017, 19:23
Please refrain from putting words in my mouth which I never said. Nobody apart from you is using those exaggerations here. We better stop going back and forth the whole time and bore the stuff out of people as we won't agree on the subject anyhow. So let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. That's a quote straight from your post. I copy/pasted it.

I'll stop refuting it when you stop repeating it.

mister dog
06-11-2017, 19:40
I'm not putting words in your mouth. That's a quote straight from your post. I copy/pasted it.
I'll stop refuting it when you stop repeating it.
I was talking about the 'cancer killing PC2 part'...

snakehands
06-11-2017, 19:44
I was talking about the 'cancer killing PC2 part'...

Yeah, because you think it isn't a big problem :rolleyes:

mister dog
06-11-2017, 19:47
Yeah, because you think it isn't a big problem :rolleyes:
http://imgflip.com/s/meme/Computer-Guy-Facepalm.jpg

BrandonWright77
06-11-2017, 20:03
On PS4 the lobby host can kick unilaterally. When we run lobbies on PS4, we quickly kick players who exhibit poor on-track etiquette. Happens at least 8-10 times per night.


Well, unless I've missed it this is not an option on PC.

Jaood
06-11-2017, 20:08
Look forward for your first kick from a rogue host then :beaten:
Its possible.

BrandonWright77
06-11-2017, 20:13
Look forward for your first kick from a rogue host then :beaten:
Its possible.


Care to share how since it's not an obvious function?

Jaood
06-11-2017, 20:21
Care to share how since it's not an obvious function?
Same as vote kick.

BrandonWright77
06-11-2017, 20:25
Same as vote kick.


Don't know how to do that either. I've hosted several servers, these functions are not made obvious.

Jaood
06-11-2017, 20:29
Ah ok, click on the player in the list that shows up in pits or at session end/start (on track ESC-> List, if someone has a better way please share) a window pops up with options to add the player/show profile/Kick.

BrandonWright77
06-11-2017, 20:31
Ah ok, click on the player in the list that shows up in pits or at session end/start (on track ESC-> List, if someone has a better way please share) a window pops up with options to add the player/show profile/Kick.


Thank you for the info good sir. :)

Flamaros
09-11-2017, 00:25
Maybe not directly related to the penalties, but at least to the track rules.
The AI absolutely doesn't take care of blue flags, those opponents doesn't change their lines when you will take them a lap.

snakehands
09-11-2017, 07:21
Maybe not directly related to the penalties, but at least to the track rules.
The AI absolutely doesn't take care of blue flags, those opponents doesn't change their lines when you will take them a lap.

Blue flags don’t mean move out of the way.

Interchangeable
09-11-2017, 09:45
Blue flags don’t mean move out of the way.

This was taken from an official FIA Document found on a marshalling website:


Light Blue flag: This should normally be waved, as an indication to a driver that he is about to be overtaken. It has different meanings during practice and the race. At all times : – A stationary flag should be displayed to a driver leaving the pits if traffic is approaching on the track. During practice : – Give way to a faster car which is about to overtake you. During the race : – The flag should normally be shown to a car about to be lapped and, when shown, the driver concerned must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity.

snakehands
09-11-2017, 12:15
This was taken from an official FIA Document found on a marshalling website:m
Where does it say ‘move over’? It doesn’t because it’s not an order to move over. Anyway, in Pcars2 it just an advisory that faster cars are approaching.

rich1e I
09-11-2017, 14:20
It's definitely an order IRL racing. A blue flagged car must allow the faster car to pass at the earliest opportunity. It doesn't make sense to race a car when I'm a lap down and about to be lapped. Not sure how this is implemented in the game. Not sure if the flag system does actually work in PC2 to be fair.

Ofnir4
09-11-2017, 15:23
The order is to not race the car lapping you (defending, blocking etc), not to get out of his/her way. Not moving over to the inside line is in itself allowing the car to pass.

Aside from F1 and a few other series, the job of the backmarker is to stick to his/her racing line and let the faster car do the overtaking. It's what the AI does in the game.

What the AI doesn't do is think about time gained by letting a car through earlier.

bradleyland
09-11-2017, 16:29
m
Where does it say ‘move over’? It doesn’t because it’s not an order to move over. Anyway, in Pcars2 it just an advisory that faster cars are approaching.

This is the part that really comes to bear: "when shown, the driver concerned must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity."

The distinction between this and "move over" is kind of a subtle one. IRL motorsport, blue flagged drivers will drive their typical racing line, but as soon as the guy behind makes a move, they don't take any steps to try and close the door or defend. I agree with you that this isn't really considered to "move over", but figuratively, you could think of it that way.

snakehands
09-11-2017, 17:07
This is the part that really comes to bear: "when shown, the driver concerned must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity."

The distinction between this and "move over" is kind of a subtle one. IRL motorsport, blue flagged drivers will drive their typical racing line, but as soon as the guy behind makes a move, they don't take any steps to try and close the door or defend. I agree with you that this isn't really considered to "move over", but figuratively, you could think of it that way.

Don't even go there. People need to learn what it means and 'move over' is not what it means.

RomKnight
09-11-2017, 18:28
People need to start learning what flags mean...

There's ofc another more important issue to solve though. For immersion (I at least) tend to drive without the HUD (not that I can read everything in there in VR anyway). Problem is, without the HUD you don't have ANY message whatsoever on screen.

In order to get the penalties or flags or whatever warnings you get, you'll need to have some part of the HUD enable and... kind of ruins the immersion.

mister dog
17-11-2017, 23:50
With regards to the track limit penalties, I think the game registers you going wide/cutting on the previous lap too early, takes it as an advantage and nullifies the next lap.

The advantage through excursions on the grass can only be gained in maybe the last or the second to last corner, but I feel the game starts registering it a bit too early, let's say 3 to 4 corners away from the start/finish line, which can become a bit annoying after a while.

IMO that distance where the next lap invalidated penalty triggers needs to be shortened closer to the start/finish line.

julia-6
18-11-2017, 10:14
It seems like in 2017 they still haven't been able to implement a caution flag system. You get a warning in fine white print next to your tach/speedometer that is very difficult to read. It's not just PC2. It's pretty much every game out there where they've seemed to love small font sizes that are very difficult to read unless you have a 65" or larger display and perfect vision. I can't wait for these people to get older and can't see this stuff anymore.

snakehands
18-11-2017, 10:20
It seems like in 2017 they still haven't been able to implement a caution flag system. You get a warning in fine white print next to your tach/speedometer that is very difficult to read. It's not just PC2. It's pretty much every game out there where they've seemed to love small font sizes that are very difficult to read unless you have a 65" or larger display and perfect vision. I can't wait for these people to get older and can't see this stuff anymore.

I get a noticeable yellow or green panel come up and the spotter warns of yellow in sector whatever.

Keena
18-11-2017, 11:17
I get a noticeable yellow or green panel come up and the spotter warns of yellow in sector whatever.

As the AI hardly ever crash and I don't play multiplayer, I genuinely can't remember if anything comes up or not..

bradleyland
18-11-2017, 22:10
With regards to the track limit penalties, I think the game registers you going wide/cutting on the previous lap too early, takes it as an advantage and nullifies the next lap.

The advantage through excursions on the grass can only be gained in maybe the last or the second to last corner, but I feel the game starts registering it a bit too early, let's say 3 to 4 corners away from the start/finish line, which can become a bit annoying after a while.

IMO that distance where the next lap invalidated penalty triggers needs to be shortened closer to the start/finish line.

The “next lap invalidated” applies to any off circuit excursion within sector 3, which is ridiculous on the face of it. However, the explanation I’ve seen is that they err’d on the side of too strict, rather than have people exploit track limits to their gain.

rich1e I
19-11-2017, 18:51
I wasn't quite sure if the penalty system was working a few weeks ago. I don't know what happened now but it definitely seems to work as I got a drive through penalty the last three races lol Problem is, I'm not sure why. I got the message to slow down twice, after a while crew chief told me I got a drive through penalty and have to serve it within the next 3 laps. Now I thought it took 5 infractions before you get a drive through. I'm glad the system is there and penalizes infractions after it didn't at all before, but if I get only 2 slow down messages and after that straight a drive through? Penalty system is a mystery indeed at the moment, at least to me. Thoughts?

Jaood
19-11-2017, 18:59
You mean the crew chief app? Im quite sure penaltys are still a bit bugged. If you see the pitboard in full hud view its serious.
Also it is possible to get more than 1 second per penalty so it could have been you had +2 and a +3, the option is for time penalty until drive through, not number of infractions.

rich1e I
19-11-2017, 19:17
Yep crew chief app. That's what I meant. I usually set the lobby to 5 time penalties until drive through. I remember I got a 10 seconds penalty at Watkins Glen. Things happen pretty fast and neither crew chief nor ingame engineer explain anything. I'd really like to know more details about my penalties because I have no clue what happened. I also set a mandatory pitstop most of the time, so speeding in the pits maybe? I wish Yorkie did a tutorial with details about the penalty system, when it bites and what it does. It's a mystery to me atm.

Jaood
19-11-2017, 19:28
Yeah propably pit speeding, i reckon something like thathappening.. Most of the time its track limits though, there seems to be quite some difference between corners. Also the slow down part is a bit strange, often it just disappears in the next brakingzone while other times you drop 2-3 seconds before it slowly fades. Enforcing time isnt always 30 sec i guess its track length related.
Crew chief got updated and now works good imho. Watch the thread in the app section in the forum (cant link atm on shitty mobile) and if in doubt change hud view to confirm penalty :)

mister dog
19-11-2017, 19:33
The “next lap invalidated” applies to any off circuit excursion within sector 3, which is ridiculous on the face of it. However, the explanation I’ve seen is that they err’d on the side of too strict, rather than have people exploit track limits to their gain.
Not sure how much abuse you can still have if you'd scale it down to cutting the last 2 corners only? If I visualize those penultimate corners on most tracks I don't see an area where someone could carry more speed onto the start/finish line by cutting one of the corners that came before.

rich1e I
19-11-2017, 19:47
Yeah propably pit speeding, i reckon something like thathappening.. Most of the time its track limits though, there seems to be quite some difference between corners. Also the slow down part is a bit strange, often it just disappears in the next brakingzone while other times you drop 2-3 seconds before it slowly fades. Enforcing time isnt always 30 sec i guess its track length related.
Crew chief got updated and now works good imho. Watch the thread in the app section in the forum (cant link atm on shitty mobile) and if in doubt change hud view to confirm penalty :)

Thank you very much sir! I'll look out for the app section *inserts thumbs up smiley*