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View Full Version : Do you find PC2 cars difficult to drive? Try this!



napocapo69
30-09-2017, 11:03
I had very tough times in trying to get a proper set-up which allowed me to keep the cars on the track and have decent lap-times. And there are countless people complaining that some cars (especially the fast ones) in PC2 are impossible to dirve.
The problem is not due to the new physics (or car handling) model itself, the problem is related to to the way the game manages pedals inputs and transaltes into braking/aceleration signals. PC2, as it is today, requires pedals with very with good progression and a wide mechanical range, and this is not the case for the majority of end-users such as me (I own a G29).

DIAGNOSING THE PROBLEM
What do we mean with CARS ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO DRIVE?
1) Thottle - When you push on the pedal to get some aceleration at low gears (typically at the exit of a curve), the car floats on the wheels and often spins in heavy oversteering.
This is the number one issue, so I'll spend more time on this because the other problems (braking and downshifting) are mostly related to this one.
Probably, to fix it you went (as I did initially) into the sensitivity settings and lowered down (from the default 50% value) the value of the throttle (for example, to 40% or 35%); all by sudden, your joy of having found a value which fixes the issue of traction (oversteering, spins, u-turns), is wasted by realizing that the car has become slow, very slow. I experienced it with a Chevrolet C7R; I lowered the value to 35%-40% to be able to keep the car on the track but I became much slower than AI, even on straights. So I went to PC1 (which has a completely different way of handling traction and pedal signals) and had a ride on the C7R on the Nurburgring circuit and than back to PC2 with same track and car; in PC1 I was 4 seconds faster than in PC2. I had the confirmation of my suspicions; once you lower down the throttle pedal sensitivity you dramatically lower down the aceleration; as a consequence, to make things worse, in order to catch up with race opponents, given the higher aceleration times, you will be forced to delay the braking which will result in worsening the braking issue (with the chance of locking the wheels) and the downshifting issue (with the chance of not having enough time to downshift).
To make a long story short, YOU MUST CHANGE THE SENSITIVITY OF THE THOTTLE PEDAL IN COMBINATION WITH THE CALIBRATION; if you lower the sensitivity you have to lower (in the calibration) the mechanical range of the pedal. For instance, at the default settings, you will have the calibration of the mechanical range of the pedal set to 100 and the sensitivity set to 50; this means a ratio of 50/100 = 0,5 (which is a value, in terms of rule of thumb, to keep in mind in finding a proper setup); if you calibrate the pedal to 60 (60% of full mechanical range) a good starting point for the sensitivity is SENSITIVITY= 0,5 * 60 = 30.
Now you may wonder: "if I lower the range in the calibration and I increase the sensitivity shouldn't I have the same final result?" The answer is NO and the reason is simple.
The mechanical range of the throttle pedal (there is a spring with a non linear behaviour behind the pedal) can be divided in three zones (the pedal becomes stiffier as the spring compresses);
- First Zone, the one you use to get the initial aceleration when exiting from curves (or during very slow curves), which is the one with HIGH MECHANICAL SENSITIVITY to the foot pressure (thus poor control). This is the critical zone, because (unless you have a pedal with excellent progression) very tiny increases of pressure reflect into a wider compression of the spring and could lead to a dramatic increase of the aceleration, depending on the value of the sensitivity you have set in the PC2 settings menu.
- Second Zone, the one you use to acelerate at the beginning of a straight (or during fast curves), which is the one with AVERAGE MECHANICAL SENSITIVITY to the foot pressure (thus average control). This is should not be a critical zone unless you set a very high value for the the sensitivity parameter in the PC2 settings menu.
- Third Zone, the one you use to acelerate to get the full speed, which is the one with LOW MECHANICAL SENSITIVITY to the foot pressure (thus high control). This should not be a critical zone.
Eventually, if you set a narrower mechanical range for the pedal (90%, 70%, 50% instead of 100%) you highly improve aceleration but, on the downside, you will also increase aceleration in the zone1 whit higher sensitivity (and less foot control), thus making the traction issue even worse. For this reason it is critically important that you lower the sensitivity in the PC2 settings menu so that you gain back control. In essence, by lowering the sensitivity you increase control at the detriment of the aceleration, while by decreasing the mechanical range in the calibration you improve the aceleration at the detriment of the control.


2) Brakes - When you push on the pedal to decelerate or to stop the car, the car takes too long to slow down and, if you push hard the pedal, the wheels lock.
Obiously you can play with the braking power, but in my experience that was not enough to have a proper control of braking, once again due to the dynamic of the braking pedal spring. The reasoning to fix it is similar to the throttle. Decrease the mechincal range of the pedal and decrease the sensitivity. Again, as a rule of thumb, a starting point is a combination with SENSITIVITY = MECHANICAL RANGE * 0,5.

3) Downshift - When you find hard to downshift fast enough.
There is little you can do about this. PC2 has very tight constraints of the RPM range you can shift down the gear. In my experience, I must say, once I fixed the thottle and braking issues, the downshift become much more natural, since most of the problems I faced were due to the fact that I could no brake effectively (without locking the wheels) or I delayed the braking too much in order to cope with a poor aceleration.

4) Lateral slip of car - You feek the car slips laterally too much in fast curves.
I do not find this to be an issue. I actually find it quite realistic, even if it seems that some specific tracks have a too punitive grip. Anyway, fixing the throttle and braking issues will make the downshift easier to handle and even the slip can be managed more accurately.


FIXING THE PROBLEM
This is what I did with my G29 pedal set. It will most likely be a good starting point for G29/G27/G25 users but can be tested by other players with different equipment and tailored to their needs according to the reasoning explained above.
THROTTE : MECHANICAL RANGE (calibration) = 60% SENSITIVITY = 37% (beware I use a modded pedal, so with a standard G29 you may have to decrease even more these values)
BRAKES : MECHANICAL RANGE (calibration) = 90% SENSITIVITY = 45%


A REQUIREMENT FOR SMS
The fix I proposed above is far from being optimal.
I belive Project Cars 2, in the near future, should provide a feature, which I think is quite straightforward to implement. Acutally,I assumed PC2, which in many ways sets new standards in the racing scene, had it implemented since the beginning.
The sensitivity settings instead of being based on a simple parameter, should allow the end user to modify the braking/throttle response trhough a parametric curve (a sort of transfer function), which act as an amplifier whose gain (sensitivity) is different for input signals (pedal pressure) in different ranges. This way people can find a more efficient way to adapt the physic/car-handling model of the game to their equipment.
Such feature, at least for the braking, is already present in at least one of the leading Racing game in the market.

rich1e I
30-09-2017, 11:22
I don't think it's a good idea changing sensitivity settings if you keep spinning out on corner exit. You basically want 100% of your input 'translated' in acceleration, steering etc. You just need to be more careful and patient on throttle. You can also try different TCS settings.

Mad Al
30-09-2017, 11:30
tldr ...

changing sensitivity just alters the curve.. if you have the throttle on the floor then you should get the same value whatever sensitivity is set to...

If you are having traction issues, turn on TC
If you are locking the brakes, turn on ABS or lower the brake pressure in the car setup


as for trying to compare lap times between PC1 and PC2.. don't waste your time.. they will almost invariably be different

4dri3l
30-09-2017, 11:36
There is an easier fix though: set your pedals at a optimum distance. If you put your pedals too close or too far you will likely have problems... too close and your foot will be in a bad angle, wich will lead into pushing too much the throttle with any little movement... too far and the problem goes on the other way... at an optimum distance you can control the pedals a lot more accurately...

winet
30-09-2017, 11:39
I guess some can't label PC2 as a simcade anymore

napocapo69
30-09-2017, 12:33
I don't think it's a good idea changing sensitivity settings if you keep spinning out on corner exit. You basically want 100% of your input 'translated' in acceleration, steering etc. You just need to be more careful and patient on throttle. You can also try different TCS settings.

You did not get the point. It is almost impossbile to manage the thtottle with the required precision on many fast cars with many pedal set. It is not my opinion. It is the opinion of a large share of people.
It what you said was possible there would be no problem.
Anyway, anyone can evaluate if it is more feasible to pursue your idea or my approach. By the way another major racing game (I won't name) is so aware of this problem that implemented a sensitivity curve exactly to cope with this pedal issue.

napocapo69
30-09-2017, 12:50
tldr ...

changing sensitivity just alters the curve.. if you have the throttle on the floor then you should get the same value whatever sensitivity is set to...

If you are having traction issues, turn on TC
If you are locking the brakes, turn on ABS or lower the brake pressure in the car setup


as for trying to compare lap times between PC1 and PC2.. don't waste your time.. they will almost invariably be different

I'm not comparing PC1 and PC2, but just for reference. Playing with sensitivity prameter in PC2 to have a car I can handle lead me to be 4 seconds behind PC1 in the same track/car and that was not reasonable. Indeed lowering the sensitivity prarameter decreased significantly the aceleration.
Regarding the brake I know how to use the brake power, but it is not enough to cope with different progessione level on the pedals. ABS is not available in all cars and anyway it is not relevant when it comes to have a fine control of braking.

Regarding TCS. Again, is not available on every car. But even when it is available it can't cope with excess of power at low gears. This is due to the fact that in the first zone of compression of the thorttle spring the control is poor (for the average foot and pedal set) while the sensitivity is high (the spring is in its maximum flexibility range).
Again, the guide is emprirical (not just theoretical). What I proposed provided to me significant better results than playing just on the sensitivity parameter. Anyone who has the problem iof not being able to manage PC2 cars (the fast ones) is invited to test what I said. I'm pretty sure most of them will find it usedul.

Mad Al
30-09-2017, 14:29
I'm not comparing PC1 and PC2, but just for reference. Playing with sensitivity prameter in PC2 to have a car I can handle lead me to be 4 seconds behind PC1 in the same track/car and that was not reasonable. Indeed lowering the sensitivity prarameter decreased significantly the aceleration.
Regarding the brake I know how to use the brake power, but it is not enough to cope with different progessione level on the pedals. ABS is not available in all cars and anyway it is not relevant when it comes to have a fine control of braking.

Regarding TCS. Again, is not available on every car. But even when it is available it can't cope with excess of power at low gears. This is due to the fact that in the first zone of compression of the thorttle spring the control is poor (for the average foot and pedal set) while the sensitivity is high (the spring is in its maximum flexibility range).
Again, the guide is emprirical (not just theoretical). What I proposed provided to me significant better results than playing just on the sensitivity parameter. Anyone who has the problem iof not being able to manage PC2 cars (the fast ones) is invited to test what I said. I'm pretty sure most of them will find it usedul.

All aids are available on ANY car, just turn them on in the gameplay options..

rich1e I
30-09-2017, 15:53
You did not get the point. It is almost impossbile to manage the thtottle with the required precision on many fast cars with many pedal set. It is not my opinion. It is the opinion of a large share of people.
It what you said was possible there would be no problem.
Anyway, anyone can evaluate if it is more feasible to pursue your idea or my approach. By the way another major racing game (I won't name) is so aware of this problem that implemented a sensitivity curve exactly to cope with this pedal issue.

Excuse me but this is not true. If you're careful enough you won't spin out. Make sure tyres are not cold and shift up early to prevent power from building up too fast. You can also enable TCS for all cars. Creating deadzones or less sensitivity won't help you imo.

Flashgod
30-09-2017, 16:44
Yesterday i totally sucked on a couple of online races, i was spinning out all the time on a car i didn't drive before. The clutch was behaving like a on/off switch. It took a while to find out that my wheels driver calibration was messed up. I had to recalibrate the pedals and everything was fine again after that. Best setting is to have full 1:1 linearity ingame, now i'm checking this via the detailed HUD page everytime when before i start a race.