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Prassat
30-09-2017, 18:39
Hello,
I'm the owner of PC2, but I'm disappointed about graphics.Patch 12 GB installed, but no sense.
PC1 has a much smoother graphic. PC2 has a very low level of antialiasing. There is no difference on different TVs, it does not affect HDR turning on or off on the console and on the TV as well.

Cars look good, but the area around the track and the trees and the stands is terrible. Looking at the mirror in the cockpit, Minecraft reminds me :-(

True, the game menu is nice, lots of cars and tracks too, weather change is cool, but that's all.

I wonder if there's another fix.
So far, I'm back on PC1.


.... I have PS4 standard (FAT 500GB version)...

seb02
30-09-2017, 18:40
Hello,
I'm the owner of PC2, but I'm disappointed about graphics.Patch 12 GB installed, but no sense.
PC1 has a much smoother graphic. PC2 has a very low level of antialiasing. There is no difference on different TVs, it does not affect HDR turning on or off on the console and on the TV as well.

Cars look good, but the area around the track and the trees and the stands is terrible. Looking at the mirror in the cockpit, Minecraft reminds me :-(

True, the game menu is nice, lots of cars and tracks too, weather change is cool, but that's all.

I wonder if there's another fix.
So far, I'm back on PC1.

it will be improved by a future patch.

AHMA_FIN
20-10-2017, 09:00
Same here after PATCH 2.0. Races at night time looks very bad. PCARS1 runs better and looks much more smoother than PC2 in comparison.

Kriig
20-10-2017, 11:01
PC1 is missing a load of physics, so it can run smoother, as the cpu is hit much lower. I'm sure future patches will help a lot.

Patch 2.0 was not to much about graphics, i think. More of fixing bugs in FFB, physics, setups etc.

I'm gonna gun on to a PS4 Pro.. And hopefully a PS5 in a not to distance future.

IcedGT
20-10-2017, 12:24
I agree the environment looks cleaner in 1, but overall 2 is my favorite sim title and looks very good.

Would the pro make a vast or subtle difference to those that have upgraded?

STAATSFEIMD_NR1
20-10-2017, 17:02
The ligthning from cars behind you in Cockpitview looks sooooo bad^^

GenBrien
20-10-2017, 23:25
geez guys....
we're playing on a console that was already obsolete when it came out, got about as much CPU and GPU power than my 3YO laptop, and you want superb graphics, with 32 cars, in every weather/time of day + super-duper hardcore physics + 60fps @1080p
Give them a break.
We're lucky they were able to squize that.
If you want better graphics switch to PC and crank it like you want

STAATSFEIMD_NR1
21-10-2017, 05:25
geez guys....
we're playing on a console that was already obsolete when it came out, got about as much CPU and GPU power than my 3YO laptop, and you want superb graphics, with 32 cars, in every weather/time of day + super-duper hardcore physics + 60fps @1080p
Give them a break.
We're lucky they were able to squize that.
If you want better graphics switch to PC and crank it like you want

Stupid answer! Other games with same CPU and GPU use does it better! It's in devs hands to optimise and maximise their engine to get the maximum. SMS seems not so good in that point.

GenBrien
21-10-2017, 13:36
Stupid answer! Other games with same CPU and GPU use does it better! It's in devs hands to optimise and maximise their engine to get the maximum. SMS seems not so good in that point.

1-dafuq do you know how good or bad they are at maximizing FPS?
2- Would like to know the games you're speaking of please. Dont have any that come to my mind....

Erwin Berkers
22-10-2017, 06:26
Given the beautiful graphics and smooth gameplay with GT Sport and up to 30 cars in race, there's nothing wrong with the CPU/GPU capacity of the (standard) PS4. But do remember that this studio spend a whole year polishing the game since the original planned release date of October last year. Hopefully, SMS does this polishing in the year to come.

Sankyo
22-10-2017, 07:48
Stupid answer!
No need for such responses, treat each other decently please.

Ian Bell
22-10-2017, 08:00
Given the beautiful graphics and smooth gameplay with GT Sport and up to 30 cars in race, there's nothing wrong with the CPU/GPU capacity of the (standard) PS4. But do remember that this studio spend a whole year polishing the game since the original planned release date of October last year. Hopefully, SMS does this polishing in the year to come.

If we went with static lighting as per GTS you'd be absolutely amazed with what we could do. We chose to remain fully dynamic, with all of the issues that brings and all of the shortcuts that takes off of our table.

Go try to play a 24 hour Le Mans in those games...

Neb911
22-10-2017, 08:15
All I know is...I am playing more in rain and horrible weather than dry since I bought PC2. It is a game changer, the weather effects and the Live Track 3.0 simulation many people tend to forget here, things like track temp depending on the angle of the Sun?!? And as a Highway engineer I find it astonishing that I see water puddles in places where I would expect them from a road design stand point...amazing!

So, what do you need? A sim or a graphics capability demo of your console? I personally play racing sims for simulation and feel...not replay videos quality.

Do understand that this level of dynamics simulation regarding weather, lighting and track conditions must be payed off in the graphics section, just the way it is until we have ridiculous power in the consoles.

Gordelion
22-10-2017, 09:18
Ian Bell,

Could you please tell us when we can expect a PS4 graphics patch, as you have mentioned in the other thread here?

Ian Bell
22-10-2017, 09:46
Ian Bell,

Could you please tell us when we can expect a PS4 graphics patch, as you have mentioned in the other thread here?

You mean 'another PS4 patch' right? :)

Very soon now ;)

Gordelion
22-10-2017, 10:09
You mean 'another PS4 patch' right? :)

Very soon now ;)

Well, I was referencing this -
You'll be surprised by the next'ish patch then. We've totally reworked how we render things with DOF and blur, improving AA greatly in many areas.

If this is what you mean by "another PS4 patch", great then, thanks.

WarmRed
22-10-2017, 10:19
I think/hope tomorrow... ;)

Roushman624
22-10-2017, 12:39
Ian Bell, can you tell us how the one X is going to be?

ooLaHop
22-10-2017, 12:44
I must tell you're doing a great job at SMS, there's much energy & caring for the players in your game. I felt abandoned by the Sony team and their daft GT sports. I love how you're treating every aspect of the game - aesthetics, landscapes, physics, interface graphics - the home background image is sad - too real though, every little detail like spectators in different outfits according to season for instance - very stylish, very English :-)… But still we need technics to be tuned to the nice look of the game. I am very disappointed at not being able to drive with the right snow tires in this so good looking snowy landscape. Some bugs are still running after Patch 2.0. Keep going thk U!!!
A French AD fan

SunBro
22-10-2017, 13:13
You mean 'another PS4 patch' right? :)

Very soon now ;)

Will that said patch arrive for pc simultaneously?

Roger Prynne
22-10-2017, 14:41
PC is normally the first to get the patch.

SunBro
22-10-2017, 18:05
PC is normally the first to get the patch.

Yeah but i understood it like a patch just for consoles. Kunos style... So it'll be a universal patch? Cool.

senna94f1
22-10-2017, 20:08
You mean 'another PS4 patch' right? :)

Very soon now ;)

Hello Mr Bell

As I've said before GT sport is very arcade and almost child like compared to Pcars 2 ps4,

Does very soon now mean like a day or two,
Only real issues are ffb and it seems to be affected only T300RS wheels,
Hence go karts ffb was great before patch 2.0 and certain other cars were fine also with ffb,

It was menu lag that needed to be fixed and that now works perfectly,

So what has happened to completely mess up the ffb since patch 2.0, some cars are almost undriveable and only flavour out of 3 flavours that suit most cars is informative, the other 2 flavours on ffb feel notchy on wheel along with wheel rotation is now not right,

I've constantly said this since patch 2.0 ,and yes when tyres temps warm up the ffb graph starts to show some kind of relationship to ffb on wheel, but still only one flavour only works ,

So no one has answered this on here ,so will this be addressed in patch update this week because the game was playable before patch even with menu lag ,now only a handful of cars are drivable,
Also AI seems to be crazy fast now in all conditions and I have had to reduce it from around 90% to 100% right down to 40% to 50% depending on cars

Erwin Berkers
23-10-2017, 05:47
If we went with static lighting as per GTS you'd be absolutely amazed with what we could do. We chose to remain fully dynamic, with all of the issues that brings and all of the shortcuts that takes off of our table.

Go try to play a 24 hour Le Mans in those games...

Funny, didn't realise you commented on this since we have the same discussion on the WMD forum. Hope you can convince me there in the more technical terms :-)

Circuit de la Sarthe (as it is named in Gran Turismo) is used for showing off some of the Vision GT cars (on the track, in motion); I bet therefore it will make its appearance at a later stage, and I expect it to support a 24h time cycle since I haven't seen any compelling argument against GT Sport supporting dynamic lighting.

Until then, we can experience Le Mans in Project CARS 2 with dynamic lighting, weather, and seasons, ... today!


Update: totally missed that Kazunori-San confirmed there will be no dynamic time of day. I was wrong on assuming this would come at a later stage.

Prassat
23-10-2017, 08:13
The idea for developers ....

Would it be possible in the future to set the display options and graphics in the game - something like "Low", "Medium" and "High" Graphic Performance? (similar to PC stuffing)

E.g.:

"Low" = all calculations, weather, dymanic lighting, LiveTrack - on
"Medium" = all calculations, weather, dymanic lighting - on
"High" = limited calculations, limited dynamic lighting, limited weather - but maximum graphical performance.

(in mutliplayer, probably not all of these options would be available)

It's just a suggestion ... :-D



Sorry for my English

Invincible
23-10-2017, 08:18
The idea for developers ....

Would it be possible in the future to set the display options and graphics in the game - something like "Low", "Medium" and "High" Graphic Performance? (similar to PC stuffing)

E.g.:

"Low" = all calculations, weather, dymanic lighting, LiveTrack - on
"Medium" = all calculations, weather, dymanic lighting - on
"High" = limited calculations, limited dynamic lighting, limited weather - but maximum graphical performance.

(in mutliplayer, probably not all of these options would be available)

It's just a suggestion ... :-D



Sorry for my English

You cannot turn LiveTrack off. LiveTrack is directly tied to the physics and if you were to turn it off, you would drive on a different physics set than others in a multiplayer race. Also reducing "calculations" (whatever this shall be) might be impossible due to the same reason.

Bealdor
23-10-2017, 08:26
The idea for developers ....

Would it be possible in the future to set the display options and graphics in the game - something like "Low", "Medium" and "High" Graphic Performance? (similar to PC stuffing)

E.g.:

"Low" = all calculations, weather, dymanic lighting, LiveTrack - on
"Medium" = all calculations, weather, dymanic lighting - on
"High" = limited calculations, limited dynamic lighting, limited weather - but maximum graphical performance.

(in mutliplayer, probably not all of these options would be available)

It's just a suggestion ... :-D



Sorry for my English

Apart from XB1X and PS4 Pro specific stuff, MS and Sony don't allow performance altering graphics adjustments on their consoles.

Prassat
23-10-2017, 09:29
OK, I understand now.
So I'm sorry you have "tied hands"

Anyway, thank you for your reactions!

LMGTP
23-10-2017, 16:02
Cant wait for this new patch :)

Biddrace
24-10-2017, 13:28
You mean 'another PS4 patch' right? :)

Very soon now ;)

Very happy to hear this

Can you tell us if you worked online?

inbound and outbound problems (LAGs) are heavy

Thank you for your work.

pCARS1Player
24-10-2017, 15:53
still no update... :(

JohnSchoonsBeard
24-10-2017, 19:42
What Ian said was nextish patch. That might mean the next patch or the one after that. Soon might mean a couple of days, a couple of weeks or more :)

sifupooh
25-10-2017, 02:29
What Ian said was nextish patch. That might mean the next patch or the one after that. Soon might mean a couple of days, a couple of weeks or more :)

howdy, johnschoonsbeard. to quote from the preview for american tv comedy show curb your enthusiasm's next airing "Soon is soon."

WarmRed
27-10-2017, 09:42
You mean 'another PS4 patch' right? :)

Very soon now ;)

Do you know the meaning of very soon?

Litusgaga
27-10-2017, 18:21
Do you know the meaning of very soon?

I'm not a moderator but honestly, that's been unnecessarily rude.

That being said I would like to have an idea of when the patch are going to be released. Are there any news?

WarmRed
27-10-2017, 18:46
I'm sorry my English is not good. It was not my intention to be rude ^^

pCARS1Player
29-10-2017, 12:22
PATCH???

pCARS1Player
29-10-2017, 12:23
the game still looks like crap

Roger Prynne
29-10-2017, 12:36
^Give it a rest will you!

porkovich
01-11-2017, 12:52
What's with the nextish patch ? Any inside news, images, whispers ? something ... :)

LeMansIndy500
01-11-2017, 23:35
Hello,
I'm the owner of PC2, but I'm disappointed about graphics.Patch 12 GB installed, but no sense.
PC1 has a much smoother graphic. PC2 has a very low level of antialiasing. There is no difference on different TVs, it does not affect HDR turning on or off on the console and on the TV as well.

Cars look good, but the area around the track and the trees and the stands is terrible. Looking at the mirror in the cockpit, Minecraft reminds me :-(

True, the game menu is nice, lots of cars and tracks too, weather change is cool, but that's all.

I wonder if there's another fix.
So far, I'm back on PC1.


.... I have PS4 standard (FAT 500GB version)...

I'm not sure if this is to do with anti aliasing but I have noticed that on some circuits during night races, the trackside lighting fades in the nearer I get instead of being visible from a distance like it should do. I noticed it on Circuit de la Sarthe at various points on the circuit, in particular to the left when exiting the chicanes leading on to the start/finish straight. I am playing in HDR on PS4 Pro so not sure it happens on the standard PS4.

WarmRed
08-11-2017, 14:01
You mean 'another PS4 patch' right? :)

Very soon now ;)

when is the update which eliminates the eye cancer graphic. Very soon now has expired :confused:

Biddrace
08-11-2017, 14:09
You mean 'another PS4 patch' right? :)

Very soon now ;)

17 Days
does not seem to me "Very Soon":(:(

Roger Prynne
08-11-2017, 14:15
Well there you go.... that's why we cant give you a date on when it will be released :rolleyes:

Sessionerror
08-11-2017, 14:20
Well there you go.... that's why we cant give you a date on when it will be released :rolleyes:

Honestly, I feel for you. It's like you're closing one thread and the same questions occur in the next one. Day for day :rolleyes:

If only people tried to understand the game making process at least. Keep up the patience, guys in orange :)

MartinMWWebb
08-11-2017, 14:49
when is the update which eliminates the eye cancer graphic. Very soon now has expired :confused:

I fail to see such bad graphics in the game.. i have even ran it with all PC settings set to low/off on my laptop and it is still very playable.

Biddrace
08-11-2017, 15:02
I fail to see such bad graphics in the game.. i have even ran it with all PC settings set to low/off on my laptop and it is still very playable.

it happens on ps4

MartinMWWebb
08-11-2017, 15:11
Doesnt look that bad to me still in this video. looks better than my laptop on low/off settings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8D-oiptrV4

Maybe its just me :)

Sessionerror
08-11-2017, 15:20
I'm far away from "eyecancer" on PS4 though. There seems to be something off with anti aliasing and a fix is coming in the next patch, but "eyecancer" is really exaggerated and not quite a reasonable form of communication.

WarmRed
08-11-2017, 15:53
I find "eye cancer" on the point. For longer races you get a headache from the flickering graphics (light/shadow).^^

Urban Chaos 2.0
08-11-2017, 16:20
Given the beautiful graphics and smooth gameplay with GT Sport and up to 30 cars in race, there's nothing wrong with the CPU/GPU capacity of the (standard) PS4. But do remember that this studio spend a whole year polishing the game since the original planned release date of October last year. Hopefully, SMS does this polishing in the year to come.


Under the hood, GT Sport has a lot less going on than Project Cars 2. That, in addition to being a PS4 EXCLUSIVE, means optimization will come easily. I do agree though, that the aliasing of textures is quite severe. At least on the PC version. I've fixed that with the highest quality of MSAA, but a console player sure as hell can't do the same. Unless of course, they've got an Xbox One X.

Andre Siqueira
08-11-2017, 22:36
I honestly don't see this abomination graphics people ate complaining about on ps4. I play this game in awe all the time. The feeling for the car improved so much that I even put Assetto for a rest now.

Playing with day and night shift on an online race... Wow. Amazing.
I think comparing with GTS is not reasonable. That game has baked illumination. Shitty physics and no rain/ snow/ fog...

It is just beautiful. That's it. Only good factor.. which I dream PCars2 could get. Is their VR experience.

I wish PCars2 could get a pared down version. With no cars on track but that beautiful physics just for hot lapping on Nordschleife in VR

pCARS1Player
09-11-2017, 12:54
I honestly don't see this abomination graphics people ate complaining about on ps4. I play this game in awe all the time. The feeling for the car improved so much that I even put Assetto for a rest now.

Playing with day and night shift on an online race... Wow. Amazing.
I think comparing with GTS is not reasonable. That game has baked illumination. Shitty physics and no rain/ snow/ fog...

It is just beautiful. That's it. Only good factor.. which I dream PCars2 could get. Is their VR experience.

I wish PCars2 could get a pared down version. With no cars on track but that beautiful physics just for hot lapping on Nordschleife in VR


Project CARS 2 has terrible graphics compared to ProjectCARS 1. You never played pCARS 1.

Albertsen
09-11-2017, 14:43
Project Cars 2 has great graphics compared to Chequered Flag (https://youtu.be/HAjLL53g2U8?t=24s). You never played Chequered Flag.

(Just adding to this useful discussion.)

JohnSchoonsBeard
09-11-2017, 17:22
Project CARS 2 has terrible graphics compared to ProjectCARS 1. You never played pCARS 1.

I have a PS4 Pro and a 4K HDR telly.

The graphics in Project CARS 2 have improved.

The anti aliasing issues cause a few hiccups but the graphics are generally a step up from the still excellent first game.

porkovich
09-11-2017, 17:50
OK, what's up with the next patch. We heard "soon"several weeks ago. The problems with the graphics and many other issues are still annoying. It will be great to have a big patch, but it will be much more acceptable to have several smaller once over a shorter period.

JohnSchoonsBeard
09-11-2017, 18:26
No specific date has been given (nor will it until its released). There are at least 150 changes so far coming in that patch. "So far" implies there is potentially more to be added to it. All that needs testing too. If something goes wrong in testing fixes the patch can't be released until the error is corrected.

The simple answer is we don't know yet.

WarmRed
09-11-2017, 19:32
Sorry but when I see in what state the game has come on the market, I think rather that we are the testers. ;) ^^

NateDawg
10-11-2017, 01:19
Sorry but when I see in what state the game has come on the market, I think rather that we are the testers. ;) ^^

The only testing you are responsible for is single player track testing. The game, especially after Patch 2 is more than functional. I've probably wasted 20+ hours in a few weeks. Even at $144.95 (I got suckered in to the deluxe edition) that's still $7.25 an hour. Good luck finding entertainment at that price anywhere else. A round of golf costs about $20 an hour. Real track days costs about $1,000 an hour...

Sure there are a few inconveniences, like puddles, but overall it's a pretty solid game and should be supported for a few years to come.

digant
10-11-2017, 17:30
I have a PS4 Pro and a 4K HDR telly.

The graphics in Project CARS 2 have improved.

The anti aliasing issues cause a few hiccups but the graphics are generally a step up from the still excellent first game.

some tracks were improved (e.g. Bathurst) others are worst (e.g. nordschleife, road america). Unfortunately performance on PS4 PRO is by far worst than PC1 that had no PS4 PRO patch. I hope currently PS4 PRO didn't receive good support and it will be improved in next patches providing good fps even in night races/rain races

UkHardcore23
13-11-2017, 18:52
I have a PS4 Pro and a 4K HDR telly.

The graphics in Project CARS 2 have improved.

The anti aliasing issues cause a few hiccups but the graphics are generally a step up from the still excellent first game.

I have the Pro as well and the graphics are massively downgraded.

biggbaddwolf
13-11-2017, 19:46
The tire physics totally sucked in PC1, and they never did address that issue, so I will go back to Assetto Corsa, before I go back to PC1...

JohnSchoonsBeard
13-11-2017, 21:03
I have the Pro as well and the graphics are massively downgraded.

Do you have a 4k screen? I think you only really get the graphical benefits at the higher resolution. Maybe 1080 downsampling support will come later.

UkHardcore23
14-11-2017, 10:13
Do you have a 4k screen? I think you only really get the graphical benefits at the higher resolution. Maybe 1080 downsampling support will come later.

My 4k screen is a 65" Sony KD65XE7002, And a 55" Sony 1080p TV. It looks poor on both and PCars 1 looks much better on both.

Im not sure how you can have a version with much better AA applied and with much better LOD models etc No HDR or 4k TV would magically give you that.

digant
14-11-2017, 10:33
Do you have a 4k screen? I think you only really get the graphical benefits at the higher resolution. Maybe 1080 downsampling support will come later.

Is downsampling support confirmed by the developers? It was never stated by SMS for what I know

UkHardcore23
14-11-2017, 11:22
Is downsampling support confirmed by the developers? It was never stated by SMS for what I know

The game is only 1300-1440p so downsampling would not have a huge effect like other titles. Right now though Downsampling is not in.

JohnSchoonsBeard
14-11-2017, 17:57
My 4k screen is a 65" Sony KD65XE7002, And a 55" Sony 1080p TV. It looks poor on both and PCars 1 looks much better on both.

Im not sure how you can have a version with much better AA applied and with much better LOD models etc No HDR or 4k TV would magically give you that.

We'll have to agree to differ. The extra resolution and HDR do make it look better to me while driving. I realise there is some flickering here or there particularly at the newer tracks but I've only found it distracting at Long Beach. Maybe further optimisation is coming for the newer tracks. Project CARS 1 looked a lot better after a few patches.


The photomode certainly gives me better results. You do have to move, adjust aperture and zoom your way past a few graphical glitches in it but results can be much improved on pCARS1.

I was hoping for better replays on the Pro. 30fps instantly looks worse after racing at 60fps.

digant
15-11-2017, 12:19
We'll have to agree to differ. The extra resolution and HDR do make it look better to me while driving. I realise there is some flickering here or there particularly at the newer tracks but I've only found it distracting at Long Beach. Maybe further optimisation is coming for the newer tracks. Project CARS 1 looked a lot better after a few patches.


The photomode certainly gives me better results. You do have to move, adjust aperture and zoom your way past a few graphical glitches in it but results can be much improved on pCARS1.

I was hoping for better replays on the Pro. 30fps instantly looks worse after racing at 60fps.


I hope on a PS4 PRO replay will be unlocked to 60fps as it was in PC1. Furthermore the menu to handle replay has to be adapted to a console (it's a Pc style at the moment). The PAD has enough buttons to handle camera change, driver car, fast play etc... Menu should be needed/necessary only for saving replay and to switch to photo mode. All the rest can be handled by pad buttons!

porkovich
15-11-2017, 14:36
It will be great to really have some info regarding the next patch. As i see it, it's going to take some time until we have it. It's not like i won't play the game in this state, but it's not only graphics to be fixed. Staying in the dark and waiting is annoying, especcialy when the game is fresh and you are aware that there are problems from day one that still need fixing. It will be really great if one of the Developers, post some info. We all know that moderators do not have inside information, but the developers can share some info at least, so the players are not kept in total silence.

JohnSchoonsBeard
15-11-2017, 16:26
It will be great to really have some info regarding the next patch. As i see it, it's going to take some time until we have it. It's not like i won't play the game in this state, but it's not only graphics to be fixed. Staying in the dark and waiting is annoying, especcialy when the game is fresh and you are aware that there are problems from day one that still need fixing. It will be really great if one of the Developers, post some info. We all know that moderators do not have inside information, but the developers can share some info at least, so the players are not kept in total silence.

Nathan Bell shared as much info as he can yesterday

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?57203-Patch-on-the-Finish-Line&p=1422408&viewfull=1#post1422408

I think we just need to carry on being patient :)

LeMansIndy500
24-11-2017, 00:06
We'll have to agree to differ. The extra resolution and HDR do make it look better to me while driving. I realise there is some flickering here or there particularly at the newer tracks but I've only found it distracting at Long Beach. Maybe further optimisation is coming for the newer tracks. Project CARS 1 looked a lot better after a few patches.


I notice a lot of flickering of trees on a lot of circuits. Imola and Red Bull Ring are the two that spring to mind off the top of my head. Also, I notice the white lines on the edge of the circuit at Red Bull Ring are jagged/flickery, as is the pylon cables in the distance when heading up the hill toward turn 2. I'm sure this is the same on other circuits too. Again, on lot of circuits (Spa springs to mind this time) the trackside fencing seems to be very jagged/flickery.

Does anybody else experience this? And is this the anti-aliasing problem that people talk of?

I am using the PS4 Pro in HDR when I notice this. Not sure if it is the same in SDR.