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thomasjohansen
01-10-2017, 09:13
Playing around with FA to get it tamed.

I have a hard time to get reasonable rear grip in turns. full rear downforce, soft rear trackbar and it still slide the backend even when coasting out of turns.

I have tried alot, any tips in what could be changed.

You can try my setup from timetrial in Redbull ring if you want.
Just add me as a ghost, then you can grap the setup to use.

LukeC1991
01-10-2017, 10:00
I had the same problem with this car, especially at Red Bull Ring, horrible oversteer even at low speed no matter what I did to the setup. If I’m honest, I think this car is broken. Some tracks it feels great, but it’s not right how bad the rear end is. I also had the same problems with Formula Renault. Strange thing is, round the Red Bull Ring these cars spin out in the high speed corners even with high downforce. Yet when I drove them around Monza, I took most of the downforce off but the cars felt planted in the high speed corners. Very strange.

saxohare
01-10-2017, 10:55
Formula C and Formula Renault also seem to have a "auto rotate backwards out of a turn tooling" installed,
Although i got the Formula C under control with a setup, i hope i can't find something for the other Cars too,

mossback rossi
27-11-2017, 23:41
Playing around with FA to get it tamed.

I have a hard time to get reasonable rear grip in turns. full rear downforce, soft rear trackbar and it still slide the backend even when coasting out of turns.

I have tried alot, any tips in what could be changed.

You can try my setup from timetrial in Redbull ring if you want.
Just add me as a ghost, then you can grap the setup to use.

I am in the same boat, feels like the car is on ice, super tenuous. I had posted a thread in XBOX sub forum and they closed the post with NO answers. IF I discover something I will post back here if the don't close the thread.

johnnieshere
27-11-2017, 23:51
I had massive problems with the F Renault in the game but I have noticed a big improvement in the demo around the A1 Ring. No idea if it has been tweaked but it seems better.

khems17
27-11-2017, 23:53
Not sure what assists you use, but have you considered turning any on? It may be a pain to turn them on for just this class, but it could be used as at least a work around until it is addressed, if it ever is.

johnnieshere
27-11-2017, 23:56
I noticed in the demo traction control is being used pretty heavily

satco1066
28-11-2017, 10:05
i had a full 71 laps online race last weekend FA@RedBull w/o problems.
Cant copy that.
at first you need 2 laps to warm your tires in practice and quali. Then its easy with all assits on w/ stable setup. All you have to do is lower tire pressure a little bit and set final drive to 7.400
Watch your tire temps in telemetry hud, after laps you should reach 85 to 90 Celsius. If not, lower tire pressure.
With real assits (TC only) youl'll have to be a bit careful, but after 5 - 10 laps practice it should be ok. If not, learn to drive :p

iggy
28-11-2017, 12:13
What were the weather conditions, track temp, which track, etc... ? I too have struggled with many cars during career mode, and... well strangely enough, the more I drive, the more the cars start to work better. I won't say there can't really be a real problem, because I still struggle with many things at times.

Here's a few things I've learned, or think that I've learned... Tires have to get up to temperature, from what I can tell, 160F is about the starting point of decent grip. On tracks where the track temperature is bellow say 110F, it can be a real struggle to get tires to warm up, especially when your struggling to drive the car fast in the first place, it's a bit of a catch 22. On top of that, the aero doesn't really start working until you get going fast, so the loose/icy sort of feeling of the car is even worse when your not going at high speeds through many corners, the faster you go, the easier it is to go faster, if that makes since. Just this morning, I was playing around with the Formula A car at Nurburgring GP, I think I had the track temperature at like 90F in this 'race' setup I had, so soft slicks where what were automatically put on the car... it took me about two laps of really driving on the very edge of what I felt I could do, just to get the tire temperatures up to like 145F, which then allowed me to push a little harder... the harder I pushed the warmer the tires got, the grip increased, etc... At one point I noticed that I could gain a half second or more in a single corner after the tires come up to temperature... that is, i could drive in deeper, faster, because the downforce was working better due to higher speed, the car gripped more, it all starts to snowball in your favor, where you can drive way way faster than ever before, brake later, hold higher speeds through corners, etc...

So... well, I don't know anything about your skill level, but I can tell you from my own struggles with all this, that the faster you go, the quicker the tires warm up, the warmer the tires get, the faster you can go, it's like the a exponential learning curve , or something like that.

Also... increase chamber... max it out if need be, this seems to help get more grip in many cases and allows the tire to warm up faster.

One piece of the puzzle I'm currently working on , is struggling to get the front tires up to temperature as fast as the rear... because the car is loose, the rears are heating up pretty well, but the fronts stay cold... I know this , or have seen the extreme case of this when trying to run hard slicks on a 90F track. I can get the rears up to at least 155F, but so far I just can't get the front above 125F or so, and at that temperature they just don't grip worth a darn, at least not at Nurburgring GP. I've read at least one person say you need to stiffen the car rather than make it softer, which seems counter intuitive, but I guess the theory would be that with stiffer suspension, the tires have to work harder ( and presumably get warmer )... anyway, my next quest is try to find a way to get front and rear tires to heat up in similar rate.

Honestly this whole topic of how to get grip with cars that seem to struggle with it, is my current obsession.

hkraft300
28-11-2017, 13:26
Brake temps affect directly the tire temperature and pressure.
Close the ducts more for heat and pressure, and search Ringley's posts for pressure and temperature guidelines.

mossback rossi
28-11-2017, 16:23
What were the weather conditions, track temp, which track, etc... ? I too have struggled with many cars during career mode, and... well strangely enough, the more I drive, the more the cars start to work better. I won't say there can't really be a real problem, because I still struggle with many things at times.


Honestly this whole topic of how to get grip with cars that seem to struggle with it, is my current obsession.

Excellent post, thank you.

Alfisti
28-11-2017, 17:00
I cannot drive them or the V*SC in PCARS1. As soon as i tap the gas they spin around and that's with TC. If i do manage a few laps all my tyres, everytime, go red hot and it's undriveable. I just avoid them.

iggy
28-11-2017, 19:06
FYI - if you haven't read any of the posts around about tire pressures... It seems in PC1 ( and also in many other racing 'games' ), reducing air pressure was one way that people generated more heat in tires, apparently now you may actually need to raise the tire pressure to generate more heat on colder tracks. I don't fully understand it yet, and/or haven't confirmed this with my own eyes , ears, and hands... but, I guess the idea is that on cooler tracks, the you may need a slightly higher starting pressure. But anyway, apparently things are modeled in a much more complex way then they had been in the past, it seems finding the right pressure for the right conditions is one of the keys to getting grip... You can't just lower the pressure assuming it will give you more grip. But back to what I was saying earlier, you ultimately need to generate heat in tires.. and I am still trying to figure it all out myself. I do for sure know that driving faster pretty much always generates more heat in tires, but then how to go fast before without wrecking first is the tricky business.

I've read somewhere too that maybe 4 good laps are needed to generate enough heat to get the tires up to operating temperatures. Although I know on soft tires , or warm tracks I've been able to get OK heat , in as few as two hard laps. Hard tires and tracks that aren't very warm are for sure a much harder thing for me at this point.

I don't things will change too much with the new patch that's out, or about to be out ( out on PC, but us console folks are still waiting ), however part of the reason I haven't put a ton of effort into figuring this out any further than I have, is because I had really believed that there would be some tweaks to some of the tire modeling and/or other issues related to handling. If I read the notes on what changed in the current PC patch, it seems there were a few areas that got changed on a few cars or classes of cars. Even so, I don't expect there to be like night and day changes to how things are working. Yet, I can't wait to get my hands on the latest update for PS4 , so I can feel more confident about sinking a lot of effort into understanding this stuff better.

hkraft300
28-11-2017, 21:37
FYI - if you haven't read any of the posts around about tire pressures... It seems in PC1 ( and also in many other racing 'games' ), reducing air pressure was one way that people generated more heat in tires, apparently now you may actually need to raise the tire pressure to generate more heat on colder tracks.

Actually... no. You don’t raise pressure to generate heat. It’s just that on cool tracks, the tires don’t heat enough to reach optimum pressure, so you raise the pressure to get close to that optimum inflation.
Example tire starting temp 20c but it heats to 80c at track A, and 40c at track B. Pressure differential will be ~half, proportional to temp*. So at track B you need a higher starting/cold pressure, because when hot at track A or B you want the same hot pressure. At 40c or 80c.

*its what happens in a closed system (see ideal gas law) but because temperature is measured in a different place on the tire carcass and it’s not inside air temperature you get to read, you don’t see the 1:1 correlation in game of pressure and temperature. Also it’s not a closed system as energy is constantly added (cornering) and removed(straights) from the tire system.


..., it seems finding the right pressure for the right conditions is one of the keys to getting grip... You can't just lower the pressure assuming it will give you more grip. But back to what I was saying earlier, you ultimately need to generate heat in tires.. and I am still trying to figure it all out myself. I do for sure know that driving faster pretty much always generates more heat in tires, but then how to go fast before without wrecking first is the tricky business.

The faster you drive, the more energy you put in to the tires, the hotter it gets, the more grip it gives, the faster you drive... until you drive too fast and the tires melt and you crash. Optimum pressure and temperature are key to make tires work.


Hard tires and tracks that aren't very warm are for sure a much harder thing for me at this point.

Generally over 40c track temperature, go hard tires. You can go soft but You’ll have to manage temperature and pressure through setup. Also soft tires start to melt above 90c tire temp and hard tires just start to wake up.

iggy
29-11-2017, 12:25
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Actually... no. You don’t raise pressure to generate heat. It’s just that on cool tracks, the tires don’t heat enough to reach optimum pressure, so you raise the pressure to get close to that optimum inflation.
Example tire starting temp 20c but it heats to 80c at track A, and 40c at track B. Pressure differential will be ~half, proportional to temp*. So at track B you need a higher starting/cold pressure, because when hot at track A or B you want the same hot pressure. At 40c or 80c.

*its what happens in a closed system (see ideal gas law) but because temperature is measured in a different place on the tire carcass and it’s not inside air temperature you get to read, you don’t see the 1:1 correlation in game of pressure and temperature. Also it’s not a closed system as energy is constantly added (cornering) and removed(straights) from the tire system.



The faster you drive, the more energy you put in to the tires, the hotter it gets, the more grip it gives, the faster you drive... until you drive too fast and the tires melt and you crash. Optimum pressure and temperature are key to make tires work.



Generally over 40c track temperature, go hard tires. You can go soft but You’ll have to manage temperature and pressure through setup. Also soft tires start to melt above 90c tire temp and hard tires just start to wake up.

Ah, your explanation about the tire pressure being set for optimal , knowing you might not get up to optimal tire temperature makes sense. I appreciate that , because that was for sure a key thing that I had not understood. However, this presents a problem in PC2 v1.2, where at the start of a race they give you pre-warmed tires, you'd need a separate setup saved just for race conditions vs qualifying. ( I think they may be or have tweaked this pre-warmed tire temp at start of race in v1.3, but not positive ) I'll given a example of this issue where I for sure noticed the difference this morning. I was running a Formula Rookie car at Red Bull Ring, doing some testing with a custom race I have setup... With that car, your tire choices are limited to Wet, Sport, and Slick... ( no soft or hard slick, just one slick). First I tried the slicks, I think I got down to around 2:08 lap times, tire temps barely got above 100F ( track temp was like 90F). I thought, maybe I should use the 'sport' tires, maybe they will heat up better, so I tried sport, and they did heat up a bit better, but still never really got very fast, so I went back to slick tires. My second stint with slicks, I had enough laps that my driving skill for this car/track had improved dramatically, I was able to push hard enough that I got the tires up to around 110F, I got my lap time down around 2:02 , but it was still pretty hard to drive at that speed consistently without wrecking. I had tweaked the chamber and tire pressures a little, and overall I felt like the car was OK, without really wanting to go in and start tweaking any suspension/shock settings. In Qualifying with the slicks and my OK setup, I ran like 2:08, I was pressed for time so I only ran a few laps, never really go the tires up above 100F, and I knew that in the race I'd have prewarmed tires, so I skipped ahead.... The race started, I looked at telemetry , tires were at like 167F, which was probably at least 40F warmer then I had ever been able to get the tires by just driving the car, tire pressure must have been much higher then was ideal, the car had grip but was still a challenge to drive, I think my first lap was 2:12 ( from standing start ) , my second lap, I think I may have spun out because I was trying to push hard cause I new my tires were warm ( about 155F by this time )... Well long story shorter , buy the 6th lap, the tire temps had dropped to like 125F, the car was really starting to feel good, I kept pushing, eventually got the lap time down to 2:00.001, which was the fastest I had gone all morning, the next lap I did spin out because i was trying to go under 2 minutes... it was a 8 lap race, so that was that. So, if your paying attention, in PC2 v1.2, the pre-heated tires really is kind of a tricky thing, it's great that they pre-heat them, but on a track/car/condition where you can't possibly get tire temps up to the temp they start you on in the race... it really makes things wonky. ( but then anyone who wants to improve their racing, needs to understand that preheated tires in race, are behaving much different then cold tires in practice/qualifying )

Anyway, I greatly appreciate your clarifying how adjusting tire pressure in PC2 is not so much to get the temperature you want, but that you need to get your pressure to where it should be ( ideal pressure ) at the point where your tires are up to the temperature they will be when they get to the temperature they are going to get to. Understanding that your tires can only get up to whatever temperature they will reach for the conditions they see during your race/practice/qualifying session. ( I hope that makes sense ).

All of this is starting to seem more logical to me now. The more I know and apply my knowledge, the faster I'm going.. So many variables, hard to control them all, so it makes driving and learning, like a very difficult science experiment. The good news is the more I know, the more I can have a chance at controlling the variables to the point where I can learn more. Now, if I could just get my hands on PC2 v1.3 for PS4, I won't have to question if they are going to tweak the tire models for the cars I'm struggling with, I'd be much happier.

hkraft300
29-11-2017, 14:16
Waiting at the grid for the green light, the hot brakes basically pressurise and heat the tires. You don’t need a separate setup. Personally I’m just careful the first couple of laps til the tire settles to where I have them tuned for. Formula rookie slicks are known to have heating issues. Some say the wet tires work better.


...

Anyway, I greatly appreciate your clarifying how adjusting tire pressure in PC2 is not so much to get the temperature you want, but that you need to get your pressure to where it should be ( ideal pressure ) at the point where your tires are up to the temperature they will be when they get to the temperature they are going to get to. Understanding that your tires can only get up to whatever temperature they will reach for the conditions they see during your race/practice/qualifying session. ( I hope that makes sense ).

Well, yes. There’s always a but. Hard tires on the GT and prototype cars, for example, don’t switch on below ~80c tire temp. So temperature is crucial to them working.
On a cold track in winter you’ll never get the compound hot enough for that optimum chemical deformation (I forget the correct term) for best grip. So you may as well go for best contact patch with optimum pressure.


All of this is starting to seem more logical to me now. The more I know and apply my knowledge, the faster I'm going.. So many variables, hard to control them all, so it makes driving and learning, like a very difficult science experiment. The good news is the more I know, the more I can have a chance at controlling the variables to the point where I can learn more...

Red pill moment.

There are many variables. Use them to your advantage.

iggy
30-11-2017, 13:25
Today's update... Not directly related to Formula A, but more related to getting tires up to temperature and just in general about what it takes to go fast and to get a car so that it feels capable of going faster...

Currently I'm still playing around with the Formula Rookie car at Red Bull Ring GP. As I was saying yesterday, I had managed to get the tires warm to a point, and was turning laps down near 2:00, which I felt was pretty darn good ( this was with track temps around 90F with light clouds. Also, because of the whole issue with tires being pre-heated at the start of a race, vs no pre-heating during practice or qualifying, I decided to go to the online time trials, where they also pre-heat the tires.

So, before I went to the online time trials, I had managed to get my lap times down to like 1:57 seconds in a custom race at Red Bull Ring, after the tires settled down in temperature a little, and my fuel got down bellow 10L, etc... then I went to time trials online, I was easily able to do 1:57 laps and was really proud of myself. So, I started looking at other record lap times on the PS4 using a Formula Rookie car... My god, the fastest Formula Rookie car has a lap time of just over 1:50, something like 1:50.477, and I'm like 7 seconds off that pace. I kept trying , also noticed that that person did it with a one of the stock SMS setups, which was interesting, so I load up a standard SMS setup and try my hand at things ( I forget if I used the stable or the loose ). Long story shorter, I eventually was able to run 1:52.250 , which made me the second fastest of all recorded time trial users who were using the Formula Rookie car, still like 2.5 seconds off the fastest time, but wow, I like knocked at least 4 seconds off my own previous best time, just by understanding that tires absolutely have to be up to temperature before you can drive hard, then after they are, the car becomes a lot easier to drive... I will say that even on that 1:52.250 lap of mine, the car wasn't totally like on rails, there were one or two high speed corners where the car got loose , I had to counter steer and managed to get through the corner anyway at a relatively high rate of speed. What is really most noteworthy to me, is that when the car is really gripping well, it's actually possible to get a little loose and still catch it before it spins out, even when driving at what is my fastest lap times to date in this car.

So, moral of the story... you absolutely have to get heat in tires to drive fast in PC2, and when you get your tires up to temp, you better take full advantage of your situation, if you start cruzing around again at lower speeds, your tires might just drop in temp and your car will start to drive worse when/if they do drop off bellow ideal temperatures, etc... So, for all you who struggle for grip, get your tires up to temperature or your just spinning your wheels. ( ha, pun intended )

iggy
01-12-2017, 03:51
Well , I'm officially the fastest Formula Rookie on the Playstation leader board. 1:50.687

SMS Stable setup... you pretty much have to get your best lap on the first lap, things deteriorate a bit after that first lap.246382

Marlborofranz
01-12-2017, 04:05
Brake temps affect directly the tire temperature and pressure.
Close the ducts more for heat and pressure, and search Ringley's posts for pressure and temperature guidelines.

To shorten the search: the pressures from Casey are in the "tyre temps" thread in the setup sub forum

MikeyMan
28-01-2018, 15:26
Just transferred to Formula A from Formula Renault. And i'm struggling as well. It's been a while since someone posted here. Is there a magic bullet in the setup?

hkraft300
29-01-2018, 00:27
Is there a magic bullet in the setup?

Yes: Get your tires in the zone.
No matter how good your setup might be, if your tires are off you won't have the pace.