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ApexSight
03-10-2017, 10:12
Hi !

I was wondering if there was a list with the altitude of each circuit?
So I would know on which circuit to take the Audi LMS GT3 with its atmospheric engine and on which circuit to take the M6 GT3 with its turbo engine :)

Thank you!

Bealdor
03-10-2017, 10:21
Google Earth is your friend. ;)

ApexSight
03-10-2017, 13:40
bealdor your profile pic is on point for your comment :topsy_turvy:

French proverb : You are never better served than by yourself.

So I did the list, based from whatever-i-could-find.



Race Track
Altitude min (m)
Altitude max (m)
Comment


Algarve
96
124



Azure Circuit
18
23
= Monaco ?


Barcelona-Catalunya
163
192



Bathurst
702
873



Brands Hatch
127
157



Brno
375
448



Cadwell Park
107
142



COTAS
126
157



Daytona
8
13



Donington
64
105



Dubai Autodrome
27
32



Fuji
545
580



Hockeinheimring
148
152



Imola
36
68



Indianapolis
220
225



Knockhill
231
261



Laguna Seca
228
283



Le Mans
44
80



Long Beach
7
12



Lydden hill
100
125



Mike Pero
43
48



Monza
140
153



Nordscleife
320
620



Nurburgring GP
570
620



Oschersleben
80
90



Oulton Park
55
77



Red Bull Ring
721
785



Road America
275
322



Rouen-les-Essarts
116
140



Sakitto
54
94
= Suzuka ?


Silverstone
196
208



Snetterton
42
47



Sonoma
5
60



Spa-Francorchamps
366
468



Sporstland Sugo
259
264



Texas Motor Speedway
190
195



Watkins Glens
454
497



Willow Springs
734
782



Zhuhai
2
7



Zolder
35
40




Now the question si : where do NA engines become too weak ?

Trippul G
03-10-2017, 14:13
Impressive that you did all that work. From a little bit of digging around, I found that it seems that a very general, very loose rule of thumb seems to be that NA engines tend to lose about 3-4% HP per 1000ft / 305m of elevation increase. Turbos seem to be roughly 1% HP loss per 1000ft / 305m. Not sure about supercharged engines.

Again, this is just what I found after snooping around the interwebs a bit, so take it with a grain of salt. I'd be interested to know if these atmospheric pressure effects are modeled into the game (I think I remember reading somewhere that they would be), and if so, what kind of figures were used, and how close are they to what I just came across?

rich1e I
03-10-2017, 14:16
Nice one. I think every track above 250/300m above sea level affects performance significantly. Where did you get these numbers from btw?

hkraft300
03-10-2017, 14:18
Now the question si : where do NA engines become too weak ?

I've noticed they suffer at Spa. It's relatively low but the long straights and being a power track plays against NA cars. Watkins is higher up but feels less detrimental because it's a handling track.
So, are we asking the right question?

solocapers
03-10-2017, 14:25
Dont know why they just cant show the altitude when the track is loading. Those who arent interested etc can just ignore and think its just some random info for no reason.

If your going to add in atmospheric pressure systems that change how a car performs then dont hide info.

Trippul G
03-10-2017, 14:27
Judging by those figures, it doesn't really look like elevation should make a massive difference in the game, at most it seems like you'd be looking at maybe a 7-10% loss for NA engines at Bathurst. Which is significant for sure, but nothing like what we'd get at a track like Hermanos Rodriguez in Mexico City, with its 2200m elevation. That would mean, according to my loose figures, a roughly 21-28% loss for NA and around 7-8% loss for turbos.

Again though, like I said, I'm sure my figures are not all that accurate.

Trippul G
03-10-2017, 14:31
Nice one. I think every track above 250/300m above sea level affects performance significantly. Where did you get these numbers from btw?

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39596

I'm basically just taking the guys in this discussion at their word, haven't bothered to look around for more evidence to back it up, which is why I said don't put TOO much stock into what I've said.

ApexSight
03-10-2017, 14:32
rich1e I ==> From multiple sources like :
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2016/10/highs-and-lows---which-f1-track-has-the-most-elevation-changes-.html, http://www.mapmyride.com/so/cadale-middle-shabele/circuit-de-la-sarthe-route-8219408, and many others
http://elevationmap.net when I couldn't find anything

hkraft300 ==> Yes, I know my question was over simplistic to start a debate :)
It depends on the class, the track caracteristics, (the temperature ?), (the weather ?)
What difference between compressor and turbo engine ?

On a PC1 post i read this :


The last time I compared a low lying track (Dubai) to a high altitude one (Nürburgring) I got a difference of roughly 9% on average between them with the NA GT3 cars, or between 40-50 bhp or so. It varies somewhat by car, for example the already tightly restricted and starved for air M3 GT (29.8 mm restrictor) only had 89.8% of the low altitude power left at high altitude, whereas the R8 LMS (47.0 mm restrictor) had 91.8% left. It can definitely be a consideration if running in a series that focuses mostly on low or high altitude tracks for example.

Roger Prynne
03-10-2017, 14:37
Impressive that you did all that work. From a little bit of digging around, I found that it seems that a very general, very loose rule of thumb seems to be that NA engines tend to lose about 3-4% HP per 1000ft / 305m of elevation increase. Turbos seem to be roughly 1% HP loss per 1000ft / 305m. Not sure about supercharged engines.

Again, this is just what I found after snooping around the interwebs a bit, so take it with a grain of salt. I'd be interested to know if these atmospheric pressure effects are modeled into the game (I think I remember reading somewhere that they would be), and if so, what kind of figures were used, and how close are they to what I just came across?

They definitely are.

rich1e I
03-10-2017, 14:50
Judging by those figures, it doesn't really look like elevation should make a massive difference in the game, at most it seems like you'd be looking at maybe a 7-10% loss for NA engines at Bathurst. Which is significant for sure, but nothing like what we'd get at a track like Hermanos Rodriguez in Mexico City, with its 2200m elevation. That would mean, according to my loose figures, a roughly 21-28% loss for NA and around 7-8% loss for turbos.

Again though, like I said, I'm sure my figures are not all that accurate.

A 10% loss is actually significant. There's a difference between having 500 bhp and having only 450 bhp at your disposal. On Watkins Glen The 911 R loses only 25-30 bhp.

Trippul G
03-10-2017, 14:52
They definitely are.

That being the case, I can't say that I recall seeing any barometric information displayed to us. I don't have the game in front of me right now, so maybe it's there and I just don't remember it? Barometric pressure, and elevation of the current track seem like important information to know, if their effects have been modeled into the game.

So, if changes in air pressure and engine efficiency due to elevation are modeled into the game, what about changes due to weather? In real life, "happy hour" at Le Mans, in the cool and shady morning hours when the air is dense with oxygen, tends to see somewhat faster times than say, in the midday heat of the afternoon sunshine when the air is thinner.

Can we expect similar behavior in-game?

Trippul G
03-10-2017, 14:55
A 10% loss is actually significant. There's a difference between having 500 bhp and having only 450 bhp at your disposal. On Watkins Glen The 911 R loses only 25-30 bhp.

Oh for sure, I didn't mean to say that it's not. I'm just saying that you'd REALLY feel it at 2200m as opposed to 7 or 800m.

Mad Al
03-10-2017, 15:04
Work it out...

HP Loss = (elevation x 0.03 x horsepower @ sea level)/1000

of course that's elevation in good old fashioned feet... :)

hkraft300
03-10-2017, 15:08
That being the case, I can't say that I recall seeing any barometric information displayed to us...

Haven't seen it in PC1 or 2.



So, if changes in air pressure and engine efficiency due to elevation are modeled into the game, what about changes due to weather? In real life, "happy hour" at Le Mans, in the cool and shady morning hours when the air is dense with oxygen, tends to see somewhat faster times than say, in the midday heat of the afternoon sunshine when the air is thinner.

Can we expect similar behavior in-game?

Might more pronounced in PC2. Air temperature won't have as great an effect on power as elevation. Might even be negligible.
Cold morning conditions have a more significant impact on tire performance, leading to better lap times.

Mad Al
03-10-2017, 15:17
Cold air is denser and engines love dense, cool air.. (not as important to worry about with fuel injected 4 strokes, was important on carburetted 2 strokes if you didn't want an engine to seize due to detonation)

Trippul G
03-10-2017, 15:20
Haven't seen it in PC1 or 2.



Might more pronounced in PC2. Air temperature won't have as great an effect on power as elevation. Might even be negligible.
Cold morning conditions have a more significant impact on tire performance, leading to better lap times.

Fair enough, I'd be happy to accept that if that's the case in-game. Barometric pressure is probably not critical information to have, but it kinda feels like track elevation is. Sure we could look it up on our own, but all it would take would be a little graphic for each track and maybe a tooltip somewhere reminding us of its effects.

Obviously there are bigger fish to fry atm, but I'd really like to see this info included, hopefully at some point.

ApexSight
03-10-2017, 16:09
On another note, someone willing to separate GT3 cars between NA/turbo/compressor ?

Don-09141955
03-10-2017, 17:27
Thanks much for your time & work.....Apex!

hkraft300
03-10-2017, 17:53
On another note, someone willing to separate GT3 cars between NA/turbo/compressor ?

NA:
Z4. Both Mercedes. R8 and it's hot sister (Huracan). Vantage. Ginetta. 911.

Turbo:
NSX, Bentley, M6, Cadillac, Ferrari, McLaren, Datsun, Renault.