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plaid
06-10-2017, 10:35
Hello.

On most tracks the camera works fine stays locked to the horizon, while thats on tracks that don't have big elevation changes, bankings and bumps it seems. Sadly on one of my favorite tracks - Bathurst - the camera sadly failed to keep that steady view, if you go up the hill, but especially down the hill the camera suddenly jumps up and down again, so it moved up ceveral centimeters quickly, also at some banking the track/view suddenly heavily rotates/tilt to the side, which otherwise doesnt happen at all. Besides it breaks the immersion, I had a really hard time to see where Im goin and lost control.
Its similiar on Cadwell to mention another example. The Nordschleife seemed to be more or less fine. At long beach the big bumps would upset the camera, which results in a impression similiar of small stutters/microstutters which is really unpleasant, while in that case changing the setup of the suspension could help, but definitly not on Bathurst for example..
I really hope this can be fixed, cause it makes some really great tracks unenjoyable.

I have to say - probably unlike most others - I can only enjoy racinggames if the world/track isn't shaking around, I really couldn't play it with worldmovement set to 10, nevermind 50, which makes that very important for me. Besides its not immersive for me I get a little sick.
But after having a discussion on another sims forum about it, I know that Im not alone with it.

Thank you for your attention.

Edit: IF it helps I can make a video and point out the moments it happened. In Assetto Corsa and Raceroom this worked pretty fine, at least after some adjustments.

wizzer111
06-10-2017, 10:43
just put world movement to 100 and it will steady the camera

DreamsKnight
06-10-2017, 10:43
put at 100. how slider works in pcars has a "design choice" nonsense. descriptions are wrong too.
and it is bugged, so you have to restart the game to see the difference

Sankyo
06-10-2017, 10:46
Hello.

On most tracks the camera works fine stays locked to the horizon, while thats on tracks that don't have big elevation changes, bankings and bumps it seems. Sadly on one of my favorite tracks - Bathurst - the camera sadly failed to keep that steady view, if you go up the hill, but especially down the hill the camera suddenly jumps up and down again, so it moved up ceveral centimeters quickly, also at some banking the track/view suddenly heavily rotates/tilt to the side, which otherwise doesnt happen at all. Besides it breaks the immersion, I had a really hard time to see where Im goin and lost control.
Its similiar on Cadwell to mention another example. The Nordschleife seemed to be more or less fine. At long beach the big bumps would upset the camera, which results in a impression similiar of small stutters/microstutters which is really unpleasant, while in that case changing the setup of the suspension could help, but definitly not on Bathurst for example..
I really hope this can be fixed, cause it makes some really great tracks unenjoyable.

I have to say - probably unlike most others - I can only enjoy racinggames if the world/track isn't shaking around, I really couldn't play it with worldmovement set to 10, nevermind 50, which makes that very important for me. Besides its not immersive for me I get a little sick.
But after having a discussion on another sims forum about it, I know that Im not alone with it.

Thank you for your attention.

Edit: IF it helps I can make a video and point out the moments it happened. In Assetto Corsa and Raceroom this worked pretty fine, at least after some adjustments.

If you could make a quick video of it, that would help greatly, thanks.

BTW I think I have experienced the same at Bathurst. I'm using TrackIR so all camera movement is controlled by my head movements (World Movement is disabled in the options), but going down in the dipper section had some jumpy camera movement that actually made me dizzy :)

plaid
06-10-2017, 10:47
No. The camera should be like in real life, so the environment doesn't move wildly around - like someone shakes a picture in front of a camera -, worldmovement to 100 works like a camera mounted in a car.

plaid
06-10-2017, 10:50
No. The camera should be like in real life, so the environment doesn't move wildly around - like someone shakes a picture in front of a camera -, worldmovement to 100 works like a camera mounted in a car which makes me dizzy.


If you could make a quick video of it, that would help greatly, thanks.

BTW I think I have experienced the same at Bathurst. I'm using TrackIR so all camera movement is controlled by my head movements (World Movement is disabled in the options), but going down in the dipper section had some jumpy camera movement that actually made me dizzy :)

Ah! Thank you for feeling dizzy, too. :D No, im happy if someone understands that, I also feel bad if I watched videos from PCars2 with the camera locked to the car, nevermind VR, but others don't seem to bother and prefer it that way.

I will make a video, I just don't know when I have the time. Thx for the reply.

nhitrac
06-10-2017, 10:55
As others have said. Just set it to 100 and the rest at zero... God only knows what the devs were thinking/smoking when they designed these menus :)

plaid
06-10-2017, 10:58
As others have said. Just set it to 100 and the rest at zero... God only knows what the devs were thinking/smoking when they designed these menus :)

Maybe I don't get something, but the worldmovement was on 50 and I hated it, cause the shaking environment makes me feel like watching a video, plus my tummy protests. I put it to 0 and it barely moved with the exceptions I mentioned. Which was my intention.

On 100 it should be fixed on the car, so the car doesn't move, but the environment, I mean relative to the screen. :confused: Thats what I absolutly don't want to happen.

nhitrac
06-10-2017, 13:36
Maybe I don't get something, but the worldmovement was on 50 and I hated it, cause the shaking environment makes me feel like watching a video, plus my tummy protests. I put it to 0 and it barely moved with the exceptions I mentioned. Which was my intention.

On 100 it should be fixed on the car, so the car doesn't move, but the environment, I mean relative to the screen. :confused: Thats what I absolutly don't want to happen.

Hmm for me at 0 had the most movement, plus the view was 'fixed' to the horizon. Meaning if I went up a hill the view would look through the dash at the horizon, and similarly downhill would cause my view to automatically look through the roof. This is with TrackIR on btw...

Setting it to 100 eliminated all of this.

It was the same in pCars1

plaid
06-10-2017, 15:27
Hmm for me at 0 had the most movement, plus the view was 'fixed' to the horizon. Meaning if I went up a hill the view would look through the dash at the horizon, and similarly downhill would cause my view to automatically look through the roof. This is with TrackIR on btw...

Setting it to 100 eliminated all of this.

It was the same in pCars1

Yes, I know. I thought it would be clear that I don't want the camera fixed to the car, but fixed to the horizon. Thats the right way afterall. :p

The issue I have is basicly that the view sometimes works like its fixed to the car, when I set it to be fixed to the horizon.

kevin kirk
06-10-2017, 17:25
what exactly do you mean fixed to the horizon? If things a shaking turn camera shake off. If you don't want the camera to float up and down with the elevation set world movement on 100. If you don't want G force movement, or leaning set those to zero. If you don't want the camera to look at the apex turn that to 0. Something to keep in mind when shutting off world movement by setting it to 100 is if you have a stiff setup on the car on some rougher tracks the car will seem to ride super stiff and give a sort of stiff shaking or vibrating effect. Fuji does that for what ever reason. The glen did in the last game but I havnt drove it yet in this game

MJP
06-10-2017, 17:29
I agree with the OP, the world movement slider doesn't seem to work properly at lower settings and it's on elevation changes (mainly uphill ones like up through the esses at Watkins) you see it most. It's giving me motion sickness after a few laps, I can jump into PC1 with the same camera settings (WM 10%, GF 10%) and blast through the esses at the Glen no problem for lap after lap. I have no problem in rF2 or AC using this type of 'world movement' setting either, it seems purely a PC2 issue for me. A good 75% of the hours I've got logged in this game are my car just sitting ontrack/pits because I've had to go and liedown for a couple of hours or so.

DreamsKnight
07-10-2017, 00:04
world movement = 100 the dash in the screen don't move up and down on elevation but the street yes
world movement = 0 the dash move up and down but the street no.

i repeat, it's bugged: RESTART THE GAME or it don't change.

the second slider = 100 the dash move forward or backward during bracking or acceleration
the second slider = 0 the dash don't move

kevin kirk
07-10-2017, 00:12
Just a heads up I have noticed when changing some of the camera movement options it doesn't kick in until you restart the session you are in.

snakehands
07-10-2017, 06:02
People need to sort their tummy wummy troubles out, clearly.

Fanapryde
07-10-2017, 07:55
Copied from my post in another topic:

World movement:
Set to 100 the car (cockpit cam obviously) is completely still and the horizon bounces up and down.
Set to 0 the horizon is stable but the car (dashboard) is moving up and town too much.
30 seems to suit me more or less (though the dash is still moving up and down too much), but actually the horizon should always be stable (like IRL) and a slider to change the way the car moves would be optimal imo.

In a real car:
When you are driving, you are looking at the road, and all the bumps are filter/corrected by your inner ears, so the viewing of the track is smooth and it's the car's cockpit that moves around you.

What happens in a Sim
Because you are sitting on a standing chair/seat, you're head is not moving at all, so inner ear is not working, eyes don't correct bumps.
That creates 2 issues :
1) you can't focus on the road, the road is shaking and not smooth, it's difficult to drive
2) you can get nausea because you have conflicting information between eyes and inner ears.

oege
07-10-2017, 08:05
Perhaps that helps .....


242109

242110

Gregz0r
07-10-2017, 09:56
I have it set to 100 in PCARS and the exact opposite situation in DiRT Rally, which is weird.
Probably the best situation is somewhere in-between - instead of 100, maybe have it at 90 or something?

Rob Olejniczak
07-10-2017, 12:11
Below is what I wrote about this in another thread I started a while ago about this topic. A wmd member said he was going to forward it to the developers on the internal forums because he agrees and is affected the same way.


Ok guys, last night I tried world movement set to 100, 90, 75 and 50. It definitely fixes the problem I was having with leaning on the banking, but made me feel more nauseous the higher (closer to 100) I made the setting.

The thing that is making me nauseous is that the helmet is locked to the car/track surface relative to the bumpiness of the track. With WM set to 100 it is not realistic in how bumpy and jittery the view looks. In real life your helmet moves and doesn't bounce up and down 1 to 1 with every little bump. In WM 100 the view is locked to the car and your view bumps up and down with every bump on the track. The cockpit of the car stays perfectly stiff and doesn't move. That's not realistic, and I'm not looking at the interior of the car while I'm driving, I'm looking at the view out the windshield and as far up the track as possible like real life. With WM set closer and closer to 100 the view of the track gets much more blurry and jittery.

I think they should have this setting divided into a at least 2 settings. World movement could still set the movement of your view relative to pitch and tilt, but have another setting that controls how stiff you view is locked to the car over bumps. Right now with WM at 100 it is like your helmet is bolted to the frame of the car. In real life your body is acting like additional suspension for your head and smooths out the bumpiness. Your eyes don't move 1 to 1 with the cars frame, but that is the view I'm getting with WM at 100.

I'm pretty confident I'm not the only one that feels this way. In iRacing they have this broken down into multiple settings too. They have driverheadhorizon, driverheadnopitch, driverheadtilt, and driverheadwobble. Values go from 0.0 to 1.0. The recommended settings to prevent motion sickness for them are horizon at 0.9 (1 would be locked to horizon), nopitch at 0.9 (1 car doesn't pitch forward or back), no recommended value for tilt, and wobble at 0.0 (at 0.0 driver head doesn't wobble with bumps). Having "world movement" divided into separate settings like that enable more people to set the view in vr more comfortably. Some people get sick on one setting and others get sick with the opposite setting. This has been discussed on the iRacing forums extensively.

MJP
07-10-2017, 16:05
OK been playing around a bit more to see what differences there are between WM in PC1 and PC2. High values of WM seem to me to behave the same in both titles, it's when we (I) use low WM values that the differences appear.

When using low WM values in PC1 I've seen people complain the in car camera moves too far when driving on a slope but for PC2 when using low WM values they seem to have implemented a limit on how far the in car camera moves. Not only that, this limit only applies when the car is in motion. Stop the car on a slope and the in car view settles to how it looks in PC1, start moving again and the limit kicks back in. Whether this contributes (or is even the cause) of my problems I don't know because there's no way to turn it off in PC2 or alternatively turn it on in PC1 to compare.

The second difference is when WM is set to zero in PC1 the WM is pretty much just that, not so in PC2. When you set WM to zero in PC2 it acts like PC1 until you encounter a sufficiently steep slope then the outside view starts moving!! Not only does it start moving it does so in really weird disconnected, disorientated just nauseating sort of way, a completely different feel to the way it moves when using high values of WM.

The easiest way to see the differences is to take a car to Willow Springs Horse Thief Mile with WM set to zero both in PC1 and 2 and drive out of the pits and drive up the hill round the hairpin at the top and back down again. Also when you're halfway up and down the hill, stop the car and you'll see the camera limit thingie I mentioned before kick in and out.

I see Rob mentioned how iRacing handle it and it sounds similar to the RealHeadMotion plugin that's available for rF2 and AC. Now I'm guessing that something like that for PC2 is unlikely at this stage but could it be possible to add say a check box on the Camera/Movement page that reverts to PC1 behaviour?

Hobbs77
15-10-2017, 13:31
Funny thing was that everything worked perfectly until a month or so before the release of pc1 and for some reason they refuse to revert it back. Back then if you set it to the higher settings you would get more and more horizon movement like it is today and if you set it to 0 you would get 0 horizon movement very little in car movement and you also had the dreaded camera movement when going up and down slopes, hills ect. .......BUT.....if you set it to 2 or 3 it unlocked the camera from the slope problem, the horizon was steady and very little in car or head movement. The more you raised the setting, the more head/in car movement you could get, until a point where there would be a even mix of head and horizon at 50% setting.

It was the perfect scenario.....if you wanted less car movement and more horizon movement you could adjust it to your liking and if you wanted 0 horizon movement and a little or a lot of in car/head movement, you could adjust that too and without the camera problems when changing elevations.

Conclusion...at this point in time and only a few complaining about it, they could care less. They've got bigger issues to deal with atm. But it would be nice if they could solve this problem once and for all as it does take away for the emersion and quality of game play from the people suffering from different in car camera/horizon movements.

So everything is working the same except for the lower settings and the camera when changing elevations. And it really sucks in vr with the osd moving all over the place when changing elevation also.

Ian, maybe you can look into this camera problem and get back to us, Thanks in advance!

DreamsKnight
15-10-2017, 14:15
the helmet and the head are fixed with the car and they move with them. if you go up you don't have the dash in the middle of your eyes, the dash remain there cause you're connected to her. the street reamain there, in your front, don't disappear.

the head has shacking over bumps . eys mantain the focus.

WM at 100 give exactly this thing, it is the best option for who has a 1:1 rig screen, cause the real wheel is connected to the fake dash in the screen

Hobbs77
15-10-2017, 14:52
the helmet and the head are fixed with the car and they move with them. if you go up you don't have the dash in the middle of your eyes, the dash remain there cause you're connected to her. the street reamain there, in your front, don't disappear.

the head has shacking over bumps . eys mantain the focus.

WM at 100 give exactly this thing, it is the best option for who has a 1:1 rig screen, cause the real wheel is connected to the fake dash in the screen

Set at 100 may work for you but it doesn't work for me. The background moving and bouncing around will make me ill in no time. The virtual road, landscape, mountains or any fixed objects outside the car should be steady as a rock and not moving in any way, just like in the real world.

Right now the only real problem with the WM lower settings is the unwanted, unrealistic camera movements when changing elevations.

MaximusN
15-10-2017, 15:02
The virtual road, landscape, mountains or any fixed objects outside the car should be steady as a rock and not moving in any way, just like in the real world.

I see it the other way around. The view from the car should be absolutely fixed like a camera that's mounted firmly. If the car half moves and the world half moves(left and right f.i.), how am I supposed to know how much I'm actually oversteering/turning? It also helps keeping my dials visible through my physical steering wheel. So my world movement is at 100.

plaid
15-10-2017, 15:24
I see it the other way around. The view from the car should be absolutely fixed like a camera that's mounted firmly. If the car half moves and the world half moves(left and right f.i.), how am I supposed to know how much I'm actually oversteering/turning? It also helps keeping my dials visible through my physical steering wheel. So my world movement is at 100.

If you set it to zero it doesn't or barely move to the left and right, same as in Assetto Corsa and Raceroom, i just filters up and down movements and the world doesn't rotate, while the rotation may happen/makes sense if its really steap turn like in an oval or the karussel on the ns. I can't nail a turn if its moving around and would be hell a dangerous in real life on my bike.
In reality the world doesn't move around and/or rotates, besides if a bump heavily impacts your body. If you focus on something it remains more or less steady, which is the track 99% of the time.
The actual realistic view shouldn't be the only one being included but its the most obivious to be included and work well.
Anyway arguing which is better is senseless, its clearly about preference. But it definitly feels more like watching a video with a gopro than actually driving a car and some feel ill cause the they focus on something that they can't focus on/moves.

Schumi-
15-10-2017, 15:39
Glad i stumbled across this thread, the Dipper section at Bathurst made me quite dizzy, couldnt work out what the problem is/was, Cockpit cam i was using at the time.

Fanapryde
15-10-2017, 15:43
I don't want my in game view the same as a fixed in cockpit camera.
That is just wrong compared to what you see IRL (see my previous post).
I need my horizon to be stable at ALL times, the dash could move up or down a little bit, but not so that it sometimes disappears from screen and other times it's almost in the middle.
Now the roll (when hitting curbs e.g.) should be adjustable.
Moving horizon equals nausea for me and is also totally unrealistic. A fixed camera in the cockpit shows that image, but IRL your eyes/inner ear/brain lock the horizon.
AC has (almost) the same issue, but the RHM app gives you the choice to adjust the view exactly to what you want. Stable horizon, dash not bouncing up/down and the car roll as much or as little as you like.

MaximusN
15-10-2017, 15:45
Anyway arguing which is better is senseless, its clearly about preference. But it definitly feels more like watching a video with a gopro than actually driving a car and some feel ill cause the they focus on something that they can't focus on/moves.

Exactly, because it's all about relativity, neither is wrong or more or less realistic. But seeing that I 'am' the car I want all other things moving around 'me', not have my car move some and the world move some. Because if it were true world movement 0 it would be a stationary camera somewhere on the track. ;)

Hobbs77
15-10-2017, 15:53
I see it the other way around. The view from the car should be absolutely fixed like a camera that's mounted firmly. If the car half moves and the world half moves(left and right f.i.), how am I supposed to know how much I'm actually oversteering/turning? It also helps keeping my dials visible through my physical steering wheel. So my world movement is at 100.

I'm glad 100 works for you Max, seriously, I wish the game allow us to set it to whatever preference one has but it doesn't at the moment..... the higher background world movement settings is nothing like I have ever experienced in real life though. The only movement is from the vehicle itself and whatever forces the vehicle is putting on me due to g-forces- speed, acceleration, braking, turning and road conditions. Therefore I never experienced any of the background world movements that you get from settings from 25-100.

You can get similar visuals from watching in car fix cameras, of real cars, on real circuits on youtube. But it's nothing like how you would see it sees it if you were driving the car because the human experience is nothing like a fix camera or 100 wm setting.

DreamsKnight
15-10-2017, 18:22
this is world movement at 100



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY4qWK0Phz4


this is reality. it is the same, plus head and camera shacking caused by bump.


https://youtu.be/RAbWVTKzRx0


this is me with raceroom, i move the head more than digiprost. it is equal to WM=100. raceroom don't has camera lock to horizon option (WM=0)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfypb3WTaZg


WORLD MOVEMENT IS BUGGED, RESTART THE GAME BEFORE TO SEE CHANGES.

Hobbs77
15-10-2017, 19:27
All 3 of those videos are a perfect examples of the point I've been trying to make. The movement is just the opposite to what you would see/experience if you were driving the vehicle for real.

Fanapryde
15-10-2017, 20:10
raceroom don't has camera lock to horizon option (WM=0)
Yes it does, you just need to play with the values in the cars/camera files ( pitch / yaw / roll).
I changed them to have the horizon completely locked.

The video (reality as you say) still shows images made by a camera, not the human eye. A camera does not consider built in stabilization that all human have thanks to inner ear.
When driving a car IRL, your eyes lock the horizon or whatever you are focusing on, no matter the movement you are experiencing.

Some people may prefer their ingame view matching that of a camara (it's a personal choice, I get that), but for reality's sake (and not suffering nausea) I want the "eyes view", i.e. locked to the horizon/world.
I can not achieve that in pCars. Still working on it, I am at 25 now, which makes the horizon (fairly) stable, but causes the dash to move too much up and down.

The RealHeadMotion-Plugin by Sébastien Tixier is really great. I'm having it always active in rF2, AMS and AC.

wyldanimal
15-10-2017, 20:13
I Originally Posted about the World movement
Here:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?53744-World-Shake-PS4&p=1376732&viewfull=1#post1376732

Per Moderators request, I also made a Post in the WMD 2 Forums.
http://pcars2.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?27197-PS4-Bug-Report-World-Motion-Setting&p=1031436&viewfull=1#post1031436

There was never any response as to if it was a listed Bug / issue.
and I still have no Idea if it's on the list.


Post 2.0 patch, it seems to have been made worse.

This Only shows up on a track that has a Height transition, and Is most noticeable when going Down Hill.

Bathurst - Down Hill through the Chicanes
laguna Seca - Down the Corkescrew
Bannochbrae - Up Hill going under the bridge

No need to record and post New videos or go back over the same context
Please review the Two Previous bug reports.

The Bug / Issue still exists, or has been made worse by patch 2.0

Sankyo
15-10-2017, 20:26
Please be clear about it having become worse, or that it's the same. It wasn't in the list of fixes of patch 2.0, so it needs to be clear whether it's still the same issue, or that it got worse.

MaximusN
15-10-2017, 20:28
The video (reality as you say) still shows images made by a camera, not the human eye. A camera does not consider built in stabilization that all human have thanks to inner ear.
When driving a car IRL, your eyes lock the horizon or whatever you are focusing on, no matter the movement you are experiencing.

I can do that fine in a sim. It's not only your inner ear doing that, it's also your eyes. And with worldmovement and G-force at zero the movement of my eyes tell me instinctively what's going on. I don't get that with a dash that's rotating and jumping. I did an Indy race just to test and it feels super weird sitting straight, horizon straight, but with my car tilted right and moved to the right. Like my car wants to get away from me or something. :D I also noticed I still had g-force at 50 and got sore eyes from the dash that was moving up and down about an inch in total. So that's 0 now too.

EDIT: That was high speed shaking of course, but that's also off now. :)

Hobbs77
15-10-2017, 22:54
UPDATE...I spent some time today playing the game as I haven't had much time since the last 2.0 update. And I'm happy say that the WM settings have improved in both vr and with using monitors. In vr I'm now able to set it on the lower end of WM without any excessive camera movement when changing elevations. I still experienced excessive movements from the on screen displays moving up when going down hill and down when going up hill.

I also had some weird camera stuff with using just a monitor. At Bathurst with lower WM settings under 15, I had certain areas where the background scenery would also bounce and move around and not just the car then stabilize. Even happened on a setting of 2. Fortunately it didn't happen in vr for me, which is where I spend most of my time.

The other thing I notice that even with the WM set to 2 and the g-force set to 0 there was still quite a bit of car movement in both vr and when using a monitor. I used only the Falcon FG while testing.

DreamsKnight
16-10-2017, 00:17
All 3 of those videos are a perfect examples of the point I've been trying to make. The movement is just the opposite to what you would see/experience if you were driving the vehicle for real.

considering the second is real life...


Yes it does, you just need to play with the values in the cars/camera files ( pitch / yaw / roll).
I changed them to have the horizon completely locked.

The video (reality as you say) still shows images made by a camera, not the human eye. A camera does not consider built in stabilization that all human have thanks to inner ear.
When driving a car IRL, your eyes lock the horizon or whatever you are focusing on, no matter the movement you are experiencing.

Some people may prefer their ingame view matching that of a camara (it's a personal choice, I get that), but for reality's sake (and not suffering nausea) I want the "eyes view", i.e. locked to the horizon/world.
I can not achieve that in pCars. Still working on it, I am at 25 now, which makes the horizon (fairly) stable, but causes the dash to move too much up and down.

The RealHeadMotion-Plugin by Sébastien Tixier is really great. I'm having it always active in rF2, AMS and AC.


I hope now I understand your point: both of you want to stay with the head fixed in front of you and you want to see the world moving around you, with the road, turns and kerbs coming in the center of the screen rotating. this is WM=0 but the dash movement disturb...
i don't want to discuss personal preferences, but sorry guys, that is wrong and it is not reality. what you want is what happen with the outside camera and playing outrun ;) i still remember what my mom says ages ago looking me playing colin mcrae rally (pad, outside view) "it's not the car which move, it's the road that walks you down"


i'm spending this time cause i had the same problem!!! follow me.

real drivers rotate their heads and eyes and looks to the apex:

http://www.circuitodejerez.com/typo3temp/pics/8e1f6c7d75.jpg

this video explain the point in a great way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjkUUMZnTnU



(Real life VS PCARS) the apex is always in the center of the image, always in focus. watching the videos (real or pcars) It's where my eyes, driver eyes and camera look. the horizon perspective is the same. both of you focus the wrong thing, also looking the videos: for me there is zeroworld shacking.

https://s1.postimg.org/6wne1k51q7/Immagine.jpg

i learned to move my head, to look always the apex, exactly a real driver. if the turn is on the left, look at left, do not expect the picture to come to you, look where you want to go. do an experiment: rotate now your head and look something to your left: the things you are loking where is now? in the center of your point of view. and the monitor? on the right.

i don't know hoobs' config, but fanapryde you have a triple and this is the job of a triple. after two times everything will be natural. this is my suggestion.

Blake-Lee43
16-10-2017, 01:34
Off topic but this video made me order some monitor stands just now so I can finish off my cockpit
https://youtu.be/JY4qWK0Phz4

wyldanimal
16-10-2017, 01:53
Please be clear about it having become worse, or that it's the same. It wasn't in the list of fixes of patch 2.0, so it needs to be clear whether it's still the same issue, or that it got worse.

I've noticed there has been some Visual Changes since Patch 2.0,
and the Issue with regards to the World movement when the track Height changes, seems to be more noticeable.


What was listed to be included in Patch 2.0
I colorized the two that could be responsible for the noticed change.
maybe directly related, or because of Improvements, the World motion issue just stands out more.

Project CARS 2 - PS4 Patch 2.0

• Improved driving line assist.
• Various AI behavioural and race line improvements.
• Multiple improvements and enhancements to multiplayer, and lobby handling.
• Improvements and enhancements to audio and sound effects.
• Improvements and enhancements to replays and replay cameras.
• USB keyboard support improved.
• Improvements, enhancements and fixes to Career flow.
• Enhancements to various cars’ handling and standard setup improvements.
• Tweaks and fixes to Achievement / Trophy unlock logic.
• Tweaks and fixes to setup UI and flow.
• Improved default assists for gamepad users.
• Fixes and improvements to headlights and brake lights.
• Fixes and improvements to ICM appearance and functionality.
• Improvements and enhancements to steering wheel support.
• Fixes and improvements to certain weather / tyre combinations.
• Optimisations to tracks across the game.
• Myriad render and performance tweaks and improvements.

Fanapryde
16-10-2017, 08:32
I can do that fine in a sim. It's not only your inner ear doing that, it's also your eyes. And with worldmovement and G-force at zero the movement of my eyes tell me instinctively what's going on. I don't get that with a dash that's rotating and jumping. I did an Indy race just to test and it feels super weird sitting straight, horizon straight, but with my car tilted right and moved to the right. Like my car wants to get away from me or something. :D I also noticed I still had g-force at 50 and got sore eyes from the dash that was moving up and down about an inch in total. So that's 0 now too.

EDIT: That was high speed shaking of course, but that's also off now. :)
Indeed- I did not want to repeat myself, thought it was clear - it is the inner ear, brain and eyes working together when defines your view IRL.
It is very difficult - almost impossible - to replicate in a static sim rig on flat screens.

I also agree on the movement of the dash. So - if I'm right - we agree almost completely.
With WM at 0, the horizon does what I want it to do: nothing at all. :)
BUT: (not on all tracks, but on every track with big elevation changes - e.g. the Ring, Bathurst, Cadwell Park a.o.) the dash moves too much UP/DOWN (from disappearing at the underside of my screens to being halfway or more on my screen), which I can not stand. It does not look like that IRL.
There should be some room for roll though.
IRL when you hit a sausage kerb, the car will jolt and unless (but even then) you are strapped in the harness really tight (like in a race car), your body position changes slightly compared to the car (including dash).
To mimic that in pCars, you need to move the WM slider up (100 gives no dash movement at all), but in doing so, the horizon will start moving...and THAT is what I don't want, and that is why I'm constantly altering the WM settings to find the best compromise.
I need my horizon stable with no movement UP/DOWN, but some ROLL from the car/dash.

242951





I hope now I understand your point: both of you want to stay with the head fixed in front of you and you want to see the world moving around you, with the road, turns and kerbs coming in the center of the screen rotating. this is WM=0 but the dash movement disturb...

i learned to move my head, to look always the apex, exactly a real driver. if the turn is on the left, look at left, do not expect the picture to come to you, look where you want to go. do an experiment: rotate now your head and look something to your left: the things you are loking where is now? in the center of your point of view. and the monitor? on the right.

i don't know hoobs' config, but fanapryde you have a triple and this is the job of a triple. after two times everything will be natural. this is my suggestion.
Rrrmmm, no.... :D
I think we also agree.
As I wrote above, I am looking for the exact opposite.
Even in my rig I tend to lean my head into the corners (as I do IRL) though there is no G-force working, looking at the apex (clearly visible on triples). The horizon then will look tilted, though it is not, as it is also not IRL.
That is not the issue for me (and others, since you can find discussions in the forums of all sims about this).
As I explained above: the horizon should be stable.
At WM 100 it bounces around up/down/left/right and gives me nausea after a short while, while ont he other hand the dash is completely immobile.
At the other end of the scale (WM 0) the horizon is steady, but the dash (car) moves too much.
And until now I have not found the exact setting where the horizon is stable and the dash only rolls a little bit when hitting high kerbs or going off track. I need that, because I don't have a motion rig to transfer the feeling.
In all my other sims I established the right view either by changing the camera files, or using the R(eal)H(ead)M(movement) app.

Roger Prynne
16-10-2017, 08:49
I've noticed there has been some Visual Changes since Patch 2.0,
and the Issue with regards to the World movement when the track Height changes, seems to be more noticeable.


What was listed to be included in Patch 2.0
I colorized the two that could be responsible for the noticed change.
maybe directly related, or because of Improvements, the World motion issue just stands out more.

Project CARS 2 - PS4 Patch 2.0

• Improved driving line assist.
• Various AI behavioural and race line improvements.
• Multiple improvements and enhancements to multiplayer, and lobby handling.
• Improvements and enhancements to audio and sound effects.
• Improvements and enhancements to replays and replay cameras.
• USB keyboard support improved.
• Improvements, enhancements and fixes to Career flow.
• Enhancements to various cars’ handling and standard setup improvements.
• Tweaks and fixes to Achievement / Trophy unlock logic.
• Tweaks and fixes to setup UI and flow.
• Improved default assists for gamepad users.
• Fixes and improvements to headlights and brake lights.
• Fixes and improvements to ICM appearance and functionality.
• Improvements and enhancements to steering wheel support.
• Fixes and improvements to certain weather / tyre combinations.
• Optimisations to tracks across the game.
• Myriad render and performance tweaks and improvements.

Those two things have nothing to do with World Movement though (as far as I know)

One is for replays and the other is rendering performance.
I don't see why they would have any bearing on the World Movement.

DreamsKnight
16-10-2017, 10:25
Rrrmmm, no.... :D
I think we also agree.
As I wrote above, I am looking for the exact opposite.
Even in my rig I tend to lean my head into the corners (as I do IRL) though there is no G-force working, looking at the apex (clearly visible on triples). The horizon then will look tilted, though it is not, as it is also not IRL.
That is not the issue for me (and others, since you can find discussions in the forums of all sims about this).
As I explained above: the horizon should be stable.
At WM 100 it bounces around up/down/left/right and gives me nausea after a short while, while ont he other hand the dash is completely immobile.
At the other end of the scale (WM 0) the horizon is steady, but the dash (car) moves too much.
And until now I have not found the exact setting where the horizon is stable and the dash only rolls a little bit when hitting high kerbs or going off track. I need that, because I don't have a motion rig to transfer the feeling.
In all my other sims I established the right view either by changing the camera files, or using the R(eal)H(ead)M(movement) app.

so when you start a climb in real life the horizon is fixed? no. the car go up and the horizon go down. exactly like the sun (fixed point in the horizon) move around you, turning right or left. the dash don't go in the middle of your eyes, we agree.

you intend your head as a fixed anchor point where all else has to move hanging from it.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/8145/3866/320/pendolo.jpg

infact you think a moving rig is the solution, but no, and i used it with and without VR.

the problem is you look in front of you in a fixed point in the horizon, instead of following the road with eyes: it's like you look a dirty stain on the monitor surface instead looking through them. indeed you use mods that makes head movement in your place, when usually they are used by people with small monitors. you want the road where you looking, instead to look the road.

start to think the fixed point is the seat, your shoulder, your wheel and the virtual dash. head and eyes must move and follow the road.

perspective is the right word in this speach :D , but if you have to mod or change files in each sim, e no one provide natively what you are searching for, my suggestion is to change the perspective, because it might be wrong and not the sims. ;)

like i said i've done it and only now everything feels natural.

Fanapryde
16-10-2017, 14:39
so when you start a climb in real life the horizon is fixed? no. the car go up and the horizon go down.
Correct, but have you ever seen the road and the rest of the landscape shaking up/down/left/right ?
I guess not. And that is precisely what happens with WM100 and causes me problems.
And it is not only that. At Bathurst, starting from the Esses throughout the Dipper, my whole image/view is blurred/shaking. It does it with WM 100, but also with WM 0 !
Try the Caterham SP300R at Bathurst (whatever WM value and see for yourself). Must add that I am on 27" triples just less than 60cm from my eyes, angled at 45°. Maybe even the FOV plays a role.


infact you think a moving rig is the solution, but no, and i used it with and without VR.
No no, I did not say a motion rig is a solution. Believe me, I tried three different ones and neither one felt good, though the very first impression was WOW. But neither of them were perfectly in sync with the sim and it all felt weird after a few laps. So I took that off my whislist. I don't see me riding endurance races in it. On top of that the actuators were noisy, too noisy for my likings.


the problem is you look in front of you in a fixed point in the horizon, instead of following the road with eyes: it's like you look a dirty stain on the monitor surface instead looking through them. indeed you use mods that makes head movement in your place, when usually they are used by people with small monitors. you want the road where you looking, instead to look the road.
Again, no. It is clearly difficult to explain correctly.
I don't fix my eyes on a point at the horizon, but at the road. It does not help when the road (together with the "world") is doing the shake, rattle and roll... going uphill and downhill, I agree it does not hurt that the game tries to mimic the feeling, thus letting the world go (rather slowly) up and down. Again, it's the shaking that is wrong.
I have been racing 125cc shifter karts for several years, did several track days with motorcycles and still doing ocasional car track days in Zolder and Francorchamps (with one of my friends cars :distracted:), did two endurance autoX races (very bumpy), I competed for over ten years in speedsurfing (can you imagine how bouncy a speedboard at 70+ km/h over choppy waters is)...in all those cases I have never had a view like in pCars2.
Maybe some people see it different, I am in the category that wants a stable image, exactly what my eyes/brain/inner ear manage to stabilise IRL.

DreamsKnight
16-10-2017, 16:02
Correct, but have you ever seen the road and the rest of the landscape shaking up/down/left/right ?


yes, always. never happen that before a downhill the front of your car hide the road? when you start to going down, the road reappears :)

it's only perspective of your point of view. you don't feel properly inside a car and connected when you play.

i've just tried to give you some advices but, i don't know what to say more. :(

Fanapryde
16-10-2017, 16:26
yes, always. never happen that before a downhill the front of your car hide the road? when you start to going down, the road reappears :)

it's only perspective of your point of view. you don't feel properly inside a car and connected when you play.

i've just tried to give you some advices but, i don't know what to say more. :(
Yes, I know, appreciated. :)
But I tried what you suggested, and it just does not work for me (and others).
And yes, I don't feel at ease in the cars, just because of the weird (cockpit) view.
I had the same issue in pCars1, hoped SMS was going to add a slider or something, but it is roughly the same, sadly.

plaid
16-10-2017, 18:22
Yes, I know, appreciated. :)
But I tried what you suggested, and it just does not work for me (and others).
And yes, I don't feel at ease in the cars, just because of the weird (cockpit) view.
I had the same issue in pCars1, hoped SMS was going to add a slider or something, but it is roughly the same, sadly.


I had discussions like these in the AC forum. At one point I just copy and pasted the explanation in the Real Headmotion app thread. :D Anyway I assume they don't understand people who prefer it that way, like I don't understand how they can play the game in their manner.

Anyway, the AI makes me regret that I purchased PCars2, but the camera doesn't help either.

Hobbs77
17-10-2017, 00:17
No no, I did not say a motion rig is a solution. Believe me, I tried three different ones and neither one felt good, though the very first impression was WOW. But neither of them were perfectly in sync with the sim and it all felt weird after a few laps. So I took that off my whislist. I don't see me riding endurance races in it. On top of that the actuators were noisy, too noisy for my likings.

Just curious what 3 motions rigs did you try because I got a 2dof scn 5 seat mover back in 2008 and just love it. Course I've tuned it down to act more like what the cars body roll would be instead of any excessive movements trying to replicate the cars g-forces. Paired up with the Rift and it's quite the experience!

And as far as the WM settings, I agree with you 100% but with vr it's not as much of a problem. Although it would be nice if they finally get it all sorted out.

taz1004
17-10-2017, 00:29
WM set to 100 in VR is complete headache. I get sick after 10 seconds of it because what the eye sees doesn't match the actual motion the body feels (which is nothing). I have to set it at 0. But then when driving the high banks at Daytona, car is tilt sideways.
What makes me sick in VR with WM 100 are all the small bumps. Perhaps the overall "Rotation" of the camera should be leveled with the TRACK surface (surface normal in game design) regardless of the WM setting. And the WM setting only deals with the bumps as the description says.

Hobbs77
17-10-2017, 02:43
WM set to 100 in VR is complete headache. I get sick after 10 seconds of it because what the eye sees doesn't match the actual motion the body feels (which is nothing). I have to set it at 0. But then when driving the high banks at Daytona, car is tilt sideways.
What makes me sick in VR with WM 100 are all the small bumps. Perhaps the overall "Rotation" of the camera should be leveled with the TRACK surface (surface normal in game design) regardless of the WM setting. And the WM setting only deals with the bumps as the description says.

LOL.....you probably don't want use the high WM settings in vr that's for sure! I can't use the high setting with my monitor without feeling sick. And you don't want set it to 0 either or you'll get the strange rotational and elevation camera effects.....try finding a setting between 5-25 that works for you.

taz1004
17-10-2017, 02:56
LOL.....you probably don't want use the high WM settings in vr that's for sure! I can't use the high setting with my monitor without feeling sick. And you don't want set it to 0 either or you'll get the strange rotational and elevation camera effects.....try finding a setting between 5-25 that works for you.

There's no setting between 5-25 that looks right at Daytona.

Fanapryde
17-10-2017, 10:54
Just curious what 3 motions rigs did you try because I got a 2dof scn 5 seat mover back in 2008 and just love it. Course I've tuned it down to act more like what the cars body roll would be instead of any excessive movements trying to replicate the cars g-forces. Paired up with the Rift and it's quite the experience!

And as far as the WM settings, I agree with you 100% but with vr it's not as much of a problem. Although it would be nice if they finally get it all sorted out.
It's been a while now and I don't seem to remember all details (since I lost interest), but I still have a couple of pictures:

The first one at a local BMW dealer.
IIRC it is a 3 DOF chassis from Human Racing (which felt totally out of sync and had a completely wrong position for me)

243063

This one was on a race event in Zolder, a custom made model (that - I think - they only seem to have for renting purposes) from Dynamixx.
It felt a bit better than the previous one (though I think it was only a 2 DOF) but was very noisy.

243064

Can't really tell what the third one was. I remember it looked really fancy, was really noisy and had exaggerated movement. The monitors were fixed on the chassis and they vibrated so much that my view was completely blurry most of the time. I stopped after a few minutes. :fatigue:

Now, I think you may be right about the use for VR, but (at least the ones I tried) I would not even consider buying them for use on triple screen setup.

plaid
17-10-2017, 11:45
There's no setting between 5-25 that looks right at Daytona.

The look is right if its fixed the horizon, BUT the feel of your body/head not being straight is missing. Without a rig that rotates depending on the track thats sadly not possible.

What could be improved is the driveres head/the camera movement so it feels more natural maybe.

Hobbs77
17-10-2017, 13:32
BUT the feel of your body/head not being straight is missing. Without a rig that rotates depending on the track thats sadly not possible.

What could be improved is the driveres head/the camera movement so it feels more natural maybe.

Not understanding the body, head thing......but there are settings for head tilt, rotation and look to apex in the menus...if that's any help.

UPDATE.....Just saw the reference to being on Daytona.......ya, you would need some kind of gyro rig to swing you up to match the tracks banking to make it feel right. lol

plaid
17-10-2017, 13:40
Not understanding the body, head thing......but there are settings for head tilt, rotation and look to apex in the menus...if that's any help.

Just lean your head or upper body to the side. You should see that the world doesn't rotates, but you feel that you're head isn't straight up. In games you cant recreate it completely, cause the game can't make you feel like your head/body isn't straight but leaning to the side, when you are sitting straight, but you are driving through a steap turn that makes the car rotate relative to the environment/horizon.

The missing feelings while you move in reality while you are moving in a video game is the reason people feel sick playin some games. A friend of mine couldn't play Doom (90's) cause of that.

Hobbs77
17-10-2017, 13:51
It's been a while now and I don't seem to remember all details (since I lost interest), but I still have a couple of pictures:

The first one at a local BMW dealer.
IIRC it is a 3 DOF chassis from Human Racing (which felt totally out of sync and had a completely wrong position for me)

243063

This one was on a race event in Zolder, a custom made model (that - I think - they only seem to have for renting purposes) from Dynamixx.
It felt a bit better than the previous one (though I think it was only a 2 DOF) but was very noisy.

243064

Can't really tell what the third one was. I remember it looked really fancy, was really noisy and had exaggerated movement. The monitors were fixed on the chassis and they vibrated so much that my view was completely blurry most of the time. I stopped after a few minutes. :fatigue:

Now, I think you may be right about the use for VR, but (at least the ones I tried) I would not even consider buying them for use on triple screen setup.

The 2nd rig is similar to the one I built. A diy project with help from xsim community. You should be able to set the software to be smoother, quieter, and not feel like your in an F1 car doing 200mph on a dirt road. I have several saved motion profiles depending on the car, road, and game I'm playing. Most of the time I have it set just to enhance/immerse the game play and not overtake it.

wyldanimal
17-10-2017, 17:32
Just goin to add this....

Real Life In Car race Video's ARE NOT what it actually Looks like to be the Driver.

Unless the Camera is Mounted to a 3 Axis Gimbal System, you are getting a Camera View, not the View that a Drivers "Motion Compensated" Eyes would see.
So It pains me, that too many Sim tiltles, Try to Make their Game Play views, Match what a Camera Recording looks like.

Yes, Sure you Can Compare Game Play to Real Life In car Camera Footage. And say
Look, the Game Play Looks exactly the the Real Life Camera Footage.

But that is NOT how it really looks if you are the Real Driver.

The Human Brain has an Equilibrium system, You Head and Eyes, move, so that the World Outside of the car, stays calm and smooth to the Point your eyes are focused on.
Around you, you will perceive that the Car, the Dash, the Wheel, the Window frame, It's all moving. But the Outside Environment stays Calm and Smooth.

You can not use a recorded In car Video, that has the Camera Rigidly mounted to Part of the Car. Even a Helmet Mounted Camera, doesn't capture what your Real Eyes would see.

I'm not talking about Filed of Vision, or Angle of Vision.

This is Strictly about the Motion, specifically the Up and Down motion, not Side to Side motion.

Pcars1 Got it Right. World motion set to 0 or a low value of 10 to 20, Was so Close to real...
in Pcars2, It's Changed, and Not for the Better. In My Opinion, it's a flaw, or a bug.

In real Life driving, the Outside Would / environment does not Bounce up and Down. ( unless you Hit one Hell of a Bump )

wyldanimal
17-10-2017, 17:37
Those two things have nothing to do with World Movement though (as far as I know)

One is for replays and the other is rendering performance.
I don't see why they would have any bearing on the World Movement.

With the Improvements to the frame rates, / visuals, I think it makes the World Movement Issue More noticeable.
It might not have had a Direct affect on the Issue, But it sure is more Noticeable Now Post 2.0 to me.

Mahjik
17-10-2017, 20:15
But that is NOT how it really looks if you are the Real Driver.

The Human Brain has an Equilibrium system, You Head and Eyes, move, so that the World Outside of the car, stays calm and smooth to the Point your eyes are focused on.

To a point... Bumpy is bumpy, and your eyes can only compensate to a point.

Fanapryde
17-10-2017, 20:39
To a point... Bumpy is bumpy, and your eyes can only compensate to a point.
You are right, but that does not justify what we have now as WM choices.

Mahjik
17-10-2017, 21:11
You are right, but that does not justify what we have now as WM choices.

Personally, I don't have a problem with what we have now. I set WM to 85 and it works exactly as I would expect (and simulates what I have in my race car).

Fight-Test
17-10-2017, 21:50
Just lean your head or upper body to the side. You should see that the world doesn't rotates, but you feel that you're head isn't straight up. In games you cant recreate it completely, cause the game can't make you feel like your head/body isn't straight but leaning to the side, when you are sitting straight, but you are driving through a steap turn that makes the car rotate relative to the environment/horizon.

The missing feelings while you move in reality while you are moving in a video game is the reason people feel sick playin some games. A friend of mine couldn't play Doom (90's) cause of that.

Is there a solution to this at dayton or any ovals? 2.4 hr race at daytona really wore on me having to lean to the side all race.

plaid
17-10-2017, 22:05
You are right, but that does not justify what we have now as WM choices.

Yes.

It appears the camera just can't keep up with bigger bumps and sudden elevation changes and steap turns. Maybe also the camera gets kind of stuck.

Anyway if it worked well or least better in PCars1 it should be possible to fix this I hope.

Fanapryde
17-10-2017, 23:20
Personally, I don't have a problem with what we have now. I set WM to 85 and it works exactly as I would expect (and simulates what I have in my race car).
Maybe you don't, maybe others don't either, but a lot of people do.
None of the settings replicates what I get to see in any car/motor/kart/speedboard/bike, whatever. It is just wrong.
It does replicate what a fixed camera records, but that is not realistic in any way.

Hobbs77
18-10-2017, 00:16
Personally, I don't have a problem with what we have now. I set WM to 85 and it works exactly as I would expect (and simulates what I have in my race car).

Everyone is affected by motion differently with video games. A lot has to do with the size of your monitors, the distance that the monitors are set from the player, the fov setting and in car seat position. The closer your monitor, fov and seat position are the greater the motion will be, and a little motion can go a long way when every things set up close.

Have you tried the wm of 85 in vr? I may be wrong but I doubt there's many people, if any with settings above 50 in vr. I myself have it set to 5. Pcars 1 had a separate vr wm and g-force settings and I had both of them set to 0.

Mahjik
18-10-2017, 00:44
Everyone is affected by motion differently with video games. A lot has to do with the size of your monitors, the distance that the monitors are set from the player, the fov setting and in car seat position. The closer your monitor, fov and seat position are the greater the motion will be, and a little motion can go a long way when every things set up close.

There are more factors than those, but the most important one is just that people want/like different things. Trying to code something infinitely flexible creates infinitely more ways for anomalies (bugs as people refer to them) to happen. With that, there will never be something that "everyone" likes so the target would likely be something that the majority can use. Having been in software development myself for more years than I care to count, trying to make everyone happy never works.

snakehands
18-10-2017, 05:50
Maybe you don't, maybe others don't either, but a lot of people do.
None of the settings replicates what I get to see in any car/motor/kart/speedboard/bike, whatever. It is just wrong.
It does replicate what a fixed camera records, but that is not realistic in any way.

That’s true about monitors no matter what setting are used, which is why I went with VR and a completely realistic view, minus a bit of peripheral vision.

taz1004
18-10-2017, 09:04
Currently the car always follows the track... obviously. It's the camera that's the issue. Currently the camera, regardless of WM, rotates (yaw) with the car. It has to otherwise we'd be sitting backwards half of the track. At 0 WM however, camera does not pitch or roll with the car. That's why at 0 WM, car is turned sideways on the banks at Daytona. At 100 WM, it does pitch and roll. Along with the pitch and roll, at 100 WM, it also moves up and down according the all the small bumps. This makes 100 WM impossible to use for VR because what we see does not match what we feel. I can't use anything higher than 20 WM. And even at 20, I get headache after awhile.

And most of this is personal preference and comfort level so more option to customize it would be nice. World Movement only should deal with movement as it says. Translate up and down. And there should be separate option for Pitch and roll. I would want more roll so the car is not sideways on high banking but lower pitch so I don't get sick going up and down the hills. And this pitch and roll movement should be smooth. Not bumpy.

Hobbs77
18-10-2017, 14:48
There are more factors than those, but the most important one is just that people want/like different things. Trying to code something infinitely flexible creates infinitely more ways for anomalies (bugs as people refer to them) to happen. With that, there will never be something that "everyone" likes so the target would likely be something that the majority can use. Having been in software development myself for more years than I care to count, trying to make everyone happy never works.

Here's the confusing part for me.....For most of the making of pCARS development, the WM settings worked flawlessly, just like iR, until about a month or 2 before the release it all changed. And now it's several years later and with the release of pCARS 2, we still have the problem.

So what changed back then and why, was it ever investigated? Was it just an update coding error and the number got messed up or inverted? Or is it the consensus, that it only affects a small percentage of people, why bother.

I don't there's ever been an official reply on the matter, at least not one that I ever seen.

taz1004
18-10-2017, 20:29
There are more factors than those, but the most important one is just that people want/like different things. Trying to code something infinitely flexible creates infinitely more ways for anomalies (bugs as people refer to them) to happen. With that, there will never be something that "everyone" likes so the target would likely be something that the majority can use. Having been in software development myself for more years than I care to count, trying to make everyone happy never works.

I don't think we're asking for something "INFINITELY" flexible here. And we're not asking for something "EVERYONE" likes either. We're asking for something "VR" people would like which is one of the target market PCars2 is being marketed for.

Fanapryde
18-10-2017, 20:59
I don't think we're asking for something "INFINITELY" flexible here. And we're not asking for something "EVERYONE" likes either. We're asking for something "VR" people would like which is one of the target market PCars2 is being marketed for.
I'm not on VR (triples) but I 'd like dearly to see the WM implementation changed.

snakehands
19-10-2017, 08:12
I don't think we're asking for something "INFINITELY" flexible here. And we're not asking for something "EVERYONE" likes either. We're asking for something "VR" people would like which is one of the target market PCars2 is being marketed for.

I’m in VR and I don’t see a problem. My head is locked to the car rather than the horizon. If you lock to the horizon then things are bound to be unnatural and screwed up.

sherpa25
19-10-2017, 08:38
I’m in VR and I don’t see a problem. My head is locked to the car rather than the horizon. If you lock to the horizon then things are bound to be unnatural and screwed up.

I'd disagree with this. When a car hits a side curve, the head doesn't bank at the same angle as the car. Similar with pitch going up a hill at speed, there'd be some slight dip. Obviously though certain factors affect each driver differently, so an adjustment (roll and pitch) would be nice. I'm talking about VR though.

wyldanimal
19-10-2017, 19:47
To a point... Bumpy is bumpy, and your eyes can only compensate to a point.

I'll bet you would be surprised to know that our eyes and head can compensate for a bump greater that 12" of vertical displacement.
So in order for the outside environment to appear to move, it really has to be one Heck of a Bump.

The System of the Human Brain that compensates visually for movement is known as VOR or Vestibulo–ocular reflex.
It is one of the FASTEST reactive system of the whole human body.
It keeps our vision focused regardless of body movement.

You can test this on a Trampoline, focus on an Eye chart, and start to jump up and down.
Notice how you are still able to read that eye chart even though your body is moving by a huge vertical distance.

Now replace the trampoline with a car seat in a car.
Doesn't matter what is causing the body to move vertically, our VOR, causes our head and eyes compensate for it.
This is why a race car driver can Read the Pit Signs, while going 160 plus MPH. VOR smooths it all out.

WM at a Low values 0-20 is broken in pCars2

taz1004
19-10-2017, 22:19
I’m in VR and I don’t see a problem. My head is locked to the car rather than the horizon. If you lock to the horizon then things are bound to be unnatural and screwed up.

Why do you think that option to lock to the horizon exists in the game then? Why not just lock it to the car and get rid of World Movement option if no one has problem such as yourself. Not everyone has same comfort level in VR. That's why in Oculus store, every app has comfort level indicated. As stated by MANY on this thread, locking to the car (WM 100) causes severe motion sickness for many.

And locking to the car's roll, I have no problem and this should actually fix this issue. It's locking to the car's pitch and all the small movements that's the problem.

Mahjik
22-10-2017, 16:49
I'll bet you would be surprised to know that our eyes and head can compensate for a bump greater that 12" of vertical displacement.
So in order for the outside environment to appear to move, it really has to be one Heck of a Bump.

That's not entirely true. However, the main difference to what the eye can see and the difference in sims is what we can see. In a real car, our view is straight out the front windshield. You are focused on a point far out in the distance that any local bouncing as a lower effect at that further point. If we were focused on a closer point, the bumpiness would have a greater effect. You can test this by changing what you are focused on when going up and down stairs (I semi-recently went through rehab to be able to race again and I had to train my body how to learn how to focus on distant objects while the rest of my body was bouncing or moving so I'm well versed in this area).

With sims, most people have their FOV set so they can see a lot of the cockpit which is not really the case in real life. That's their preference but it creates this situation of what is or isn't "bumpy" because the views are not representative of what a person is really viewing in real life.

Rikirk
22-10-2017, 17:36
I like this explanation better and I would think SMS would have taken note of real head motion app before publishing the game in consideration of the growing VR consumer base.

https://www.paradigmshiftracing.com/racing-basics/locked-horizon-in-sim-racing-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly

MaximusN
22-10-2017, 17:55
I like this explanation better and I would think SMS would have taken note of real head motion app before publishing the game in consideration of the growing VR consumer base.

https://www.paradigmshiftracing.com/racing-basics/locked-horizon-in-sim-racing-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly
He talks about VR:

Virtual reality provides amazing presence in the cockpit so if a driver wants to experience what it looks like to really be in the car, they will want to lock the view to the car or use the default options that will just filter out bumps. This will make their steering wheel and seat match their view on screen and they will always be able to look around in the cockpit and it will look correct.



I interpret that as VR = World movement 100(this thread is about the opposite, zero). Anything else will confuse you, because your virtual steering wheel will move(up down left right) while your real wheel remains stationary. Even bumps(making the car including seat go up) will confuse your brain. It's the same reason I use world movement 100 when I'm not in VR. If I'm stationary, so should my virtual car(-seat).

Rikirk
22-10-2017, 20:17
He talks about VR:



I interpret that as VR = World movement 100(this thread is about the opposite, zero). Anything else will confuse you, because your virtual steering wheel will move(up down left right) while your real wheel remains stationary. Even bumps(making the car including seat go up) will confuse your brain. It's the same reason I use world movement 100 when I'm not in VR. If I'm stationary, so should my virtual car(-seat).

If a driver is more interested in the view looking the same as it would in real life, they will want to lock the view to the horizon. *This is also generally the preferred method if someone is susceptible to VR sickness as it will mimic how they are used to experiencing the world. *This will however, cause the cockpit to move around in your view and on steep inclines and bankings this can become distracting if you like to look around inside the car a lot. *We recommend if you are prone to VR sickness to concentrate on the road and not look around inside the car. *It can also be helpful to turn off the in-game steering wheel if you find the mismatched movement distracting. *This method also provides a benefit in that the hills and bankings will appear the same as in real life whereas the locked-to-car view acts as if the track is on a giant gimbal that levels it out as you drive. *Many driver's remark that they never realized how hilly a certain track was before using the locked horizon view. *This is also the method we recommend for drivers if they intend on using sim-racing as a training tool for real tracks so that what they practice in the sim will look the same when they hit the track for real.

Many sim titles often allow a driver to choose a combination of these so each individual can tailor to their own preferences. *We personally like iRacing's (non-default) horizon locked solution where the view is locked to the horizon up to 30 degrees at which point it becomes locked to the car. *This allows the track to look correct for banking and hills, but a wreck that sends the car flipping down the track won't cause it to rotate on the screen. * This is going to be more accurate to real life anyway as the vestibular system would not be able to keep up with the *rapidly flipping car.*

MJP
22-10-2017, 20:41
He talks about VR:


Virtual reality provides amazing presence in the cockpit so if a driver wants to experience what it looks like to really be in the car, they will want to lock the view to the car or use the default options that will just filter out bumps. This will make their steering wheel and seat match their view on screen and they will always be able to look around in the cockpit and it will look correct.

I interpret that as VR = World movement 100(this thread is about the opposite, zero). Anything else will confuse you, because your virtual steering wheel will move(up down left right) while your real wheel remains stationary. Even bumps(making the car including seat go up) will confuse your brain. It's the same reason I use world movement 100 when I'm not in VR. If I'm stationary, so should my virtual car(-seat).

Nice article, it does seem to me too to suggest that VR users should 'lock to car' (WM=100). However if you read further on it mentions if you're prone to VR sickness it might be preferable to 'lock to horizon' (WM=0). Now I don't have a VR headset but I do suffer from motion sickness which is why I tend to prefer settings that are or are close to a 'lock to horizon' i.e. low WM settings in PCars terms.

What's more interesting and more relevant to what's changed for PC2 is the last part of the 2nd paragraph of the 'Pick Your Reference Frame' section...


Do they wish the real and virtual cockpits to match or do they wish the view to match what they would experience in real life. Many sim racing titles use a hybrid of these by default. Often the view will be locked to the horizon for bumps, but locked to the car for larger track geometry changes such as banking and hills. This is a compromise many drivers prefer that causes the cockpit to move around slightly in the driver's view, but the pitch and roll angles will stay relatively small.

The part I've emboldened seems very much like what SMS has tried to shoehorn into their existing WM implementation for PC2 compared to PC1. Nearer the end of the article it mentions a option in iRacing that appears to operate along these lines somewhat.

Now I can see and even understand the camera angle limiting when encountering large track geometry changes, e.g. now we have ovals in PC2, being in the middle 3 wide on steep banking and trying to look left/right doesn't work too well with low (or zero) values of WM.

I don't have a problem with this, the problem I do have and it's a massive problem for me is the weird horizon (world) movement that accompanies it. Just a second or 2 of this weird movement is enough to make to make me feel nauseous and depending on track you know it's coming round every lap. What makes it even worse this pretty much always happens at important parts of a track where the last thing you need is to be feeling sick!

EDIT:- Damn I spent so long over my post someone's nipped in and covered some of my points lol.

rich1e I
22-10-2017, 21:12
Thank you very much very clarifying. I was almost getting motion sick at Bathurst after the twisty mid section down the hill. Also at Laguna Seca through the Cork Screw. I had set everything to 0 but nothing had changed. I was wondering what else I could disable to stop the camera to shake like there was an earthquake. It's much better now.

Grantpoole
23-10-2017, 13:20
Interesting reading and I'm a bit relieved to see I'm not the only one having trouble with this. When Field of view Speed Sensitivity is switched to no should the 4 sliders beneath be greyed out? for me sometimes they are when I first start the game but next time I check they are no longer grey. I was so looking forward to this game and really want to play it but at the moment I cant do more than a few laps before I start feeling unwell.

Schumi-
04-11-2017, 18:40
Do we have any news on a fix for this problem ? Next update maybe ?

Thanks

wyldanimal
26-12-2017, 01:45
I've recently tried the 3.03 patch.
Even though it has Not been Mentioned, I hoped that it might have been looked at.

Still exists, and in my opinion it is more noticeable.

Can any one from the Team or Mods at least tell us if this is even on the List of things to be fixed?

I sort of get the general impression that no one officially thinks this is an Issue that needs to be addressed.

Zaskarspants
26-12-2017, 10:26
I use wm 0 and i think it works fine.

Fanapryde
26-12-2017, 11:29
I use wm 0 and i think it works fine.
Well, on PC it absolutely does not.

MJP
26-12-2017, 16:14
I've recently tried the 3.03 patch.
Even though it has Not been Mentioned, I hoped that it might have been looked at.

Still exists, and in my opinion it is more noticeable.

Can any one from the Team or Mods at least tell us if this is even on the List of things to be fixed?

I sort of get the general impression that no one officially thinks this is an Issue that needs to be addressed.

Trouble is most don't even seem to understand the problem. I can understand why this feature (a feature I've never come across before in any other racing game before) was added but please make it an option and not forced.

wyldanimal
27-12-2017, 21:26
Trouble is most don't even seem to understand the problem. I can understand why this feature (a feature I've never come across before in any other racing game before) was added but please make it an option and not forced.

In pCars1 and in pCars2 it's a setting. An Adjustable Value.
it's in Camera, Motion settings.
So it's neither forced or an option, It is a Setting..

The User has full control over it..

it's just not working correctly.

MJP
27-12-2017, 23:19
In pCars1 and in pCars2 it's a setting. An Adjustable Value.
it's in Camera, Motion settings.
So it's neither forced or an option, It is a Setting..

The User has full control over it..

it's just not working correctly.

Oh dear where to begin, @wyldanimal and Fanapryde did either of you have problems with this setting in pCARS1?

For pCARS2 they've added a feature you can't turn off and shoehorned it into the existing 'World Movement' framework. This is what's messing things up, it wasn't there in pCARS1, we had just the basic 'World Movement' slider which worked as expected.

Fight-Test
28-12-2017, 00:40
Oh dear where to begin, @wyldanimal and Fanapryde did either of you have problems with this setting in pCARS1?

For pCARS2 they've added a feature you can't turn off and shoehorned it into the existing 'World Movement' framework. This is what's messing things up, it wasn't there in pCARS1, we had just the basic 'World Movement' slider which worked as expected.

Its intended that zero will turn it off. It's not working and has been noted and will be fixed.

wyldanimal
28-12-2017, 15:04
Oh dear where to begin, @wyldanimal and Fanapryde did either of you have problems with this setting in pCARS1?...

NO, it worked as expected in pCars1.
World Movement set at 0 in pCars1, was Zero Movement. Locked to Horizon.
That is not the case in pCars2.

So what is that new Feature you mention ?

MJP
28-12-2017, 18:18
NO, it worked as expected in pCars1.
World Movement set at 0 in pCars1, was Zero Movement. Locked to Horizon.
That is not the case in pCars2.

So what is that new Feature you mention ?

Did you read all my post I said it "worked as expected" in pCARS1. Now in pCARS2 it works the same way *but* only until you reach a certain gradient then the 'camera levelling feature' kicks in and introduces unwanted (well by me at least) world movement which makes me feel nauseous after only a sec or 2. It's a different movement to what you get when using high values of world movement, not only does it look different, it takes several laps say at World Movement 100 to make me feel nauseous compared with the 2 secs or so with the 'feature'.


Its intended that zero will turn it off. It's not working and has been noted and will be fixed.

Oh I really hope this is the case, I did suggest something like that in another post, I'm aware of the limitations of 'lock to horizon' but they pale into insignificance compared to the current handling of the problem.

Fanapryde
29-12-2017, 15:20
Just gave it a try again, hoping something changed. To be complete, I'm on triple 27", no VR.
I tried WM setting 2, which results in:

- a more or less stable horizon, which is good,
- an acceptable cockpit roll, which is also good,
- an inacceptable up/down movement of the dash on climbs/descends where the dash disappears under the bottom screen bezel or moves to high up the screen, which is not good,
- a nauseating movement on top of crests (like Cadwell, Bathurst etc...) which is the worst of all...

Some people may not care or may even be not aware, but I seem to be very sensitive about this and for me it is no less than a game breaker.
Could we please at least have a slider to constrain that up/down movement and have that weird nauseating top of the hill feel removed ?

MJP
29-12-2017, 17:01
Just gave it a try again, hoping something changed. To be complete, I'm on triple 27", no VR.
I tried WM setting 2, which results in:

- a more or less stable horizon, which is good, - Expected behaviour of low WM values
- an acceptable cockpit roll, which is also good, - Due to the 'new feature' in pCARS2
- an inacceptable up/down movement of the dash on climbs/descends where the dash disappears under the bottom screen bezel or moves to high up the screen, which is not good, - Expected behaviour of low WM values
- a nauseating movement on top of crests (like Cadwell, Bathurst etc...) which is the worst of all... - Due to the 'new feature' in pCARS2

Some people may not care or may even be not aware, but I seem to be very sensitive about this and for me it is no less than a game breaker.
Could we please at least have a slider to constrain that up/down movement and have that weird nauseating top of the hill feel removed ?

Like most stuff it's a compromise but some compromises are worse than others. Horizon pitch has always been a problem for me, rather than roll and yaw and your last point is a killer for me too.

Daynja
29-12-2017, 19:48
Many sims suffer from the stiff horizon shaking.

In AMS the old rFactor RealHeadMotion plugin helped a lot ( until Rieza actually fixed the camera files). It had real car movement and fixing the horizon without making the car wallow down or up on elevation changes.

When the car bounces over a bump the car moves as it did before (like any sim does) but the plugin stopped the world movement entirely (replicating inner ear function)


Eg:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3BuVkGn6tU

Fanapryde
29-12-2017, 20:59
Many sims suffer from the stiff horizon shaking.
True. But in rF2, AMS, AC and R3E (my other sims) there is always a remedy provided by either the game or external apps and they all give me the view as it should be.
Must admit that after the last updates, rF2 needs some work again.

bmanic
29-12-2017, 21:36
The vertical pitch up/down with WM = 0 has always been bizarre in my opinion. The lock to horizon thing is something I can understand why people want (I always have WM = 100) so I really hope SMS does fix the weird pitch up/down at some point. Makes no sense to have it pitch so violently up or down on tracks with steep hills.

MJP
30-12-2017, 01:28
Many sims suffer from the stiff horizon shaking.

In AMS the old rFactor RealHeadMotion plugin helped a lot ( until Rieza actually fixed the camera files). It had real car movement and fixing the horizon without making the car wallow down or up on elevation changes.

When the car bounces over a bump the car moves as it did before (like any sim does) but the plugin stopped the world movement entirely (replicating inner ear function)


Ahh yes Sébastien 'MagicFR' Tixier is the guy responsible for the fantastic RealHeadMotion (https://sites.google.com/site/mididrumcoverpartner/rfactor2-realheadmotion-plugin) plugin, certainly saved rF2 for me because you couldn't edit the camera file unlike previous titles (rF1/F1C/F12002), well you could but then you couldn't race online with it.

Actually F12002 and F1C were fine as they used low orientation values in cockpit, it was ISI changing it for rF1 that was my first experience of the problem. Apparently they seemed concerned (they even put comments in the file) about possible jitter when spinning using low values. TBH I don't recall that being a problem and even if it was I didn't want to degrade the experience I spent most time doing (driving) in order to improve the experience I spent much less time doing (spinning).


The vertical pitch up/down with WM = 0 has always been bizarre in my opinion. The lock to horizon thing is something I can understand why people want (I always have WM = 100) so I really hope SMS does fix the weird pitch up/down at some point. Makes no sense to have it pitch so violently up or down on tracks with steep hills.

Erm they have attempted to do something about it for pCARS2, that's the (my) problem, the solution is far worse (for me) than the problem.

bmanic
30-12-2017, 02:40
Oh, ok I see. Well for me at least it just moves very weirdly.. always has, even in pCars 1.

wyldanimal
31-12-2017, 00:57
Many sims suffer from the stiff horizon shaking.

In AMS the old rFactor RealHeadMotion plugin helped a lot ( until Rieza actually fixed the camera files). It had real car movement and fixing the horizon without making the car wallow down or up on elevation changes.

When the car bounces over a bump the car moves as it did before (like any sim does) but the plugin stopped the world movement entirely (replicating inner ear function)


Eg:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3BuVkGn6tU

The Video on the Bottom Right side is what I expect WM = 0 to behave lkie.
and on a Flat track with Limited Height change it does.

it's just that on tracks such as Bathhurst, The elevation Change cause an Abrupt WM Shake, that is a game beaker for me.
This did Not happen in pCars1, so it is somehting New in pCars2, or a bug in Pcars 2

I can not use Cockpit view with WM higher than 20.

Yes I want the Cockpit / Dash to Move up and Down. That is how it is in a Real Car ( it might be over exaggerated in pCars )
The Dash movement does not Bother me, I'm Focusing at a Distant Point out side of the Car.|
I expect that Point to remain on the Horizon. and NOT Shake up and Down, just like it looks when I'm behind the Wheel of a real race car.

I look to the Apex point or Distant point down the track, it doesn't bounce up and down, it's Fixed to the Horizon.
The Dash / Cockpit, it's bouncing and moving all over the place. That is how I expect it should be.

seb02
31-12-2017, 06:51
Hello everyone,

I noticed a problem with the camera movement on Bathurst (at the descent) and the new RX Brand Hatch circuit (I didn't test all circuits). The movements of the camera (which I select 0 or 100) are strong and give me a headache quite easily. It's very annoying. Is it possible to soften these movements in an upcoming update?
Thank you

Edit : Standard Ps4 with controller, custom race, 15 IA on Bathurst, 5 on Brand Hatch RX)

Fanapryde
31-12-2017, 11:30
Yes I want the Cockpit / Dash to Move up and Down. That is how it is in a Real Car ( it might be over exaggerated in pCars ).
For a very short time and a very limited range though.
I need to set my WM at 0 to 2 (or at least VERY low) to prevent the horizon to move. But at these settings the dash moves excessively UP/DOWN on cilmbs/descents. The roll of the cockpit is OK.
If they could/would restrict that movement (like it would be in a real car), or provide some sort of slider to control that...that would be great.
And then completely get rid of the ridiculous camera movement when on top of the crest and starting the descent (like has been mentioned several times earlier). It is really disturbing like @seb02 mentioned above. I'm not getting headaches, but after a (short) while nausea kicks in and I have to quit.

Albertsen
31-12-2017, 11:45
So ... you want the horizon completely fixed, and the dash completely steady? How does that work when you go up/down a hill?
Wouldn't you end up looking straight into the ground/sky?

Zaskarspants
31-12-2017, 12:00
So ... you want the horizon completely fixed, and the dash completely steady? How does that work when you go up/down a hill?
Wouldn't you end up looking straight into the ground/sky?

Hmmm. My memory of pcars1 is that on wm zero the dash would travel too far up and down, not an issue for me with pcars2 where the horizon does appear to unlock at extremes. The current implementation is ok for me but others are very vociferous for the pcars1 system so perhaps an ' unlock horizon threshold' slider would help.

As for the tummy flips and occasional ( slight in my case) nausea, bring them on, I love the feeling of ' whooooo oooooopppps' over rises and drops.

Fanapryde
31-12-2017, 12:02
So ... you want the horizon completely fixed, and the dash completely steady? How does that work when you go up/down a hill?
Wouldn't you end up looking straight into the ground/sky?
I'm sorry, where did you read that ?
I want the horizon steady. The dash can follow the roll of the car over curbs etc. and can move up and down a little. But not like it is now with the WM settings I use.
Now the dash disappears below the screen bezel on descents, and moves up to about the middle of the screen on climbs.
Btw: If you look straight ahead when you approach a steep climb IRL, you do look into the ground, just as you would see the sky when climbing...

Albertsen
01-01-2018, 10:25
....
I need to set my WM at 0 to 2 (or at least VERY low) to prevent the horizon to move. But at these settings the dash moves excessively UP/DOWN on cilmbs/descents. The roll of the cockpit is OK.
If they could/would restrict that movement....

Here

And if i approach a hill in real life, i look up the hill, to be aware what i'm approaching. I don't keep my vision horizontal, ending straight at the dash.

Fanapryde
01-01-2018, 11:13
Here

And if i approach a hill in real life, i look up the hill, to be aware what i'm approaching. I don't keep my vision horizontal, ending straight at the dash.
Seems to me you are 'reading' things that are not there...(or that you don't understand).
IRL there is only so much you can see when approaching a hill. Your view is blocked by the top of the windshield/banner (in tin tops). And when I start a descent - don't know about you - my dash does not disappear direction my knees, in any car...

Albertsen
01-01-2018, 14:25
If you approach a hill and drive up it - your view follows the hill. If it stays level then the car has to hover.

In any case. I'm out of this thread again. However you want to play your game is up to you.

seb02
02-01-2018, 07:32
Hello everyone,

I noticed a problem with the camera movement on Bathurst (at the descent) and the new RX Brand Hatch circuit (I didn't test all circuits). The movements of the camera (which I select 0 or 100) are strong and give me a headache quite easily. It's very annoying. Is it possible to soften these movements in an upcoming update?
Thank you

Edit : Standard Ps4 with controller, custom race, 15 IA on Bathurst, 5 on Brand Hatch RX)

there is Laguna Seca too.

Zaskarspants
02-01-2018, 10:54
there is Laguna Seca too.

Same in irl innit? Go up and down steep rises and dips and you get tummy flips.
I found pc1 dash went up and down too much and I think unlocking the horizon for extremes is more acceptable, but it does appear others would like a lock to horizon to be fixed totally.

Fanapryde
02-01-2018, 12:22
Same in irl innit? Go up and down steep rises and dips and you get tummy flips.
No it's not.
IRL your body feels what your eyes see, as opposed to sim racing when your eyes/brain tell you things your body does not feel, which is highly uncomfortable (to me).
It is something that clearly affects some people more than others.

@seb02 Cadwell Park (The Mountain) is another one where the issue is very clear.

Keena
02-01-2018, 12:26
No it's not.
IRL your body feels what your eyes see, as opposed to sim racing when your eyes/brain tell you things your body does not feel, which is highly uncomfortable (to me).
It is something that clearly affects some people more than others.

@seb02 Cadwell Park (The Mountain) is another one where the issue is very clear.

100% agree. Doesn't just happen in sim racing though ;)

https://www.m0a.com/illusions-in-flight/

Zaskarspants
02-01-2018, 12:26
No it's not.
IRL your body feels what your eyes see, as opposed to sim racing when your eyes/brain tell you things your body does not feel, which is highly uncomfortable (to me).
It is something that clearly affects some people more than others.

@seb02 Cadwell Park (The Mountain) is another one where the issue is very clear.

Yes I accept that hence my suggestion for a tummy flip slider above. Motion sickness is awful.

seb02
04-01-2018, 11:17
No it's not.
IRL your body feels what your eyes see, as opposed to sim racing when your eyes/brain tell you things your body does not feel, which is highly uncomfortable (to me).
It is something that clearly affects some people more than others.

@seb02 Cadwell Park (The Mountain) is another one where the issue is very clear.

Yes you are right. I hope Devs are aware and they can improve this in a future patch.

seb02
05-01-2018, 16:11
I tested other circuits where the problem seems to exist. I specify that all circuits are not impacted, in my opinion.
the circuits that are of concern are: Historic Spa, Bannochbrae, Sonoma, Watkins Glen, Willow Springs, Knockhill, Lydden Hill, Cadwell Park, Bathurst, Laguna Seca, Brand Hatch RX.
I also wanted to say a word about the RX circuits: I think the camera is perfect on the Wildcrest jump. It's much less fluid on other RX circuits like Dirt Fish, Daytona ...
I hope this will help the developers.

seb02
11-02-2018, 11:39
I tested other circuits where the problem seems to exist. I specify that all circuits are not impacted, in my opinion.
the circuits that are of concern are: Historic Spa, Bannochbrae, Sonoma, Watkins Glen, Willow Springs, Knockhill, Lydden Hill, Cadwell Park, Bathurst, Laguna Seca, Brand Hatch RX.
I also wanted to say a word about the RX circuits: I think the camera is perfect on the Wildcrest jump. It's much less fluid on other RX circuits like Dirt Fish, Daytona ...
I hope this will help the developers.

Is it fixed with patch 4?
Thanks

Zaskarspants
11-02-2018, 11:59
Is it fixed with patch 4?
Thanks

I don't think is due to change, but I am not certain.
I did scan the PC change log quickly and I don't recall anything about this.

Personally I much prefer the implementation of wm0 in pcars2 compared to 1.

Fanapryde
11-02-2018, 12:05
Is it fixed with patch 4?
Thanks
Sadly... No ...:nonchalance:

seb02
11-02-2018, 15:05
Sadly... No ...:nonchalance:

Thanks. Can we add this problem to Asturbo's thread to inform devs?

MJP
11-02-2018, 15:57
Unfortunately I don't think the devs see it as a problem, as far as they're concerned it's a great feature that everyone's is forced to have so no option to turn it off.

Zaskarspants
11-02-2018, 16:06
Unfortunately I don't think the devs see it as a problem, as far as they're concerned it's a great feature that everyone's is forced to have so no option to turn it off.

The issue is not that simple, it is not on / off.

Pcars1, at zero wm the horizon would move much less than pc2 and the dash much more, on extreme gradients.

I didnt like this and prefer pc2 way of doing it, however it does appear that some people posting here would like the option of a larger range of adjustment so that the horizon can be more firmly locked as in pc1.

CSL-Drive
11-02-2018, 18:26
You can also choose 50 so you can still see the car moving beyond your head movement, without being disy but vr people do say that even 0 is too much movement. I havent tried, but 0 on my screen is smooth as I can imagine it to be. As looking up to see uphill and down to see uphill, and sideways to see on ovals, I find it all works fine. I mean, a human head is not a gyroscope, but 0 world movement does a good job for me to see comfortably, as it removes screen shaking, which is wonderful to see clearly ahead and see clearly what the car is doing. And 50 gives me best of both worlds. You can still see the car moving beyond your head and you can see the screen being affected by the car. And 100 ur pretty much shaking

MJP
11-02-2018, 19:18
The issue is not that simple, it is not on / off.
I know it's not on/off that's the problem, it's on all the time in varying degrees.



Pcars1, at zero wm the horizon would move much less than pc2 and the dash much more, on extreme gradients.
That's due to the new feature in PC2, trouble is the solution is worse than the problem if you suffer from motion sickness. I understand why they've added this feature but my main problem with is it's not an option, you can't turn it off!

seb02
12-02-2018, 07:29
to be precise, the problem I'm quoting is that when the track rises, the camera movement is too brutal. This gives headaches.
I do not think SMS can leave that in this state IMO.

Fanapryde
28-02-2018, 06:31
to be precise, the problem I'm quoting is that when the track rises, the camera movement is too brutal. This gives headaches.
I do not think SMS can leave that in this state IMO.
I also used to think SMS can't leave it in this state, but.... it has been over 5 months like that and I fear nothing is going to be done about it.
For people who have real issues with what we got now, it can be a real game breaker. For me it is, hence I only have driven about 60 hrs...