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quantendoc
09-10-2017, 06:09
Hey fellow simmers :)

I got Project CARS 2 about a week ago, loving it and already sank 90 hours into it actively driving.
I'm all about the old cars since I love the challenge.

Noticing this with most of them (Ford Mk IV, Lotus Type 40 Ford and so on), but it's most dominant on the Lotus 49:

No matter what I do, there is no way to lose control. I can slam down the accelerator through corners, no matter how slow or fast and the rear end steps out slightly accelerating out of the corner. There seems to be no limit of grip there, no matter if tires are cold or warm. I just can't spin out with that car, even if I make a stupid mistake going into a corner and mistreating the throttle pedal I don't get the spin I'd "deserve" in that situation. It's almost as if there was stability control on all the time.

I'm coming from AC, rF2 and iRacing so I have plenty of practice, don't know how I'd perform if I was a new driver. But even if I try my best to lose control during corners, being as abusive with the throttle and steering as possible I only improve my lap time, doing a 3:34 - 3:37 on Spa Historic while it still feels like I don't even have to do anything to stay on track.

I'm pretty sure this car must have been far less forgiving in real life though, even though maybe not as unforgiving as in rF2. Can't really say anything about if it's true, but in my opinion the physics in newer cars are spot-on. So what is going on with the 49?

Tried turning assists back to 'Authentic' since I have them set to 'Off' normally. I also tried doing a lap with assists on, then reverting to authentic and off, but it seems to make no difference except for really slow corners where my rear end steps out a few degrees more with assists off.

Or am I really just "spoiled" with the challenging behaviour of that car in rF2 or AC?


Greetings,
Bastian

Phos
09-10-2017, 06:14
Hmm, if this is the case then that would explain why I found a 80's turbo era car easier to drive than the Formula X.

Edit: Jumping into the 49 on the Nordschleife, the record time that came up on the loading screen was ~7:17, that seems waaaay too fast for a pre aero car.

quantendoc
09-10-2017, 06:26
Curious about your opinion. The lap record on Nordschleife for the Lotus 49 irl is 8:04.something (non winged too). That was the old layout with the "Südschleife"

www[dot]nuerburgring[dot]de/typo3temp/fl_realurl_image/nordschleife-andeut-suedschleife-1952-01-ac.jpg

So I guess that 7:40-ish would be one heck of a lap time already. I really hope it's either just me or something that will be fixed at some point since apart from a few relatively small bugs PC2 is absolutely phenomenal so far. But you should really be frightened in that car going that fast, which isn't the case at the moment.

EDIT: I literally just hopped into the 49 on Nordschleife for the very first time in PC2, no prior practice or anything. Took 2nd place in leaderboard for that car after my first lap with that car and track combo, 7:16.980, which makes me only 0.201 slower than 1st place.

Sankyo
09-10-2017, 06:39
Hey fellow simmers :)

I got Project CARS 2 about a week ago, loving it and already sank 90 hours into it actively driving.
I'm all about the old cars since I love the challenge.

Noticing this with most of them (Ford Mk IV, Lotus Type 40 Ford and so on), but it's most dominant on the Lotus 49:

No matter what I do, there is no way to lose control. I can slam down the accelerator through corners, no matter how slow or fast and the rear end steps out slightly accelerating out of the corner. There seems to be no limit of grip there, no matter if tires are cold or warm. I just can't spin out with that car, even if I make a stupid mistake going into a corner and mistreating the throttle pedal I don't get the spin I'd "deserve" in that situation. It's almost as if there was stability control on all the time.

I'm coming from AC, rF2 and iRacing so I have plenty of practice, don't know how I'd perform if I was a new driver. But even if I try my best to lose control during corners, being as abusive with the throttle and steering as possible I only improve my lap time, doing a 3:34 - 3:37 on Spa Historic while it still feels like I don't even have to do anything to stay on track.

I'm pretty sure this car must have been far less forgiving in real life though, even though maybe not as unforgiving as in rF2. Can't really say anything about if it's true, but in my opinion the physics in newer cars are spot-on. So what is going on with the 49?

Tried turning assists back to 'Authentic' since I have them set to 'Off' normally. I also tried doing a lap with assists on, then reverting to authentic and off, but it seems to make no difference except for really slow corners where my rear end steps out a few degrees more with assists off.

Or am I really just "spoiled" with the challenging behaviour of that car in rF2 or AC?


Greetings,
Bastian

Could you check whether in the car's set-up itself there are driving assists (TC, ABS) available and not set to off/zero?

quantendoc
09-10-2017, 06:46
Could you check whether in the car's set-up itself there are driving assists (TC, ABS) available and not set to off/zero?

Checked, TC down to 1 % (can't change that to 0) and ABS down to 0 % (why are those settings available if the car has no assists?).

Also tried with 100 %, but it doesn't matter. At 1 and 2 % as well as 100 % the car just does everything by itself. I don't even have to counter steer really.


EDIT: I just tried the Lotus 72D and it's quite a bit harder to not lose control than in the Lotus 49, even though the 72D has more grip and aerodynamic downforce.

Sloskimo
09-10-2017, 07:15
Agreed, the car probably is a bit too fast, especially after someone posts a sub 7:10 on the leaderboards, which I'm pretty sure will happen at some point. It was 22.8 km back then vs 20.8 km now, and it's not exactly scientific since some parts of the track are faster than others, but if you calculate average time per km and take 2 km out, you'd end up with something in the region of 7:20.

That together with minor changes made to the track itself over time, which did not make it slower, I'd imagine. Probably time-wise it's not that bad. I cannot comment on the handling, surprisingly, I do not have a real Lotus 49 available to try out :) I can safely say that I have no problem crashing the in-game version though when really pushing it, but that might be because I'm not very good.

pkcraistlin
09-10-2017, 07:19
definitely something weird going on; i just checked the 49 at imola and had absolutely no dramas spinning the car around and into the wall with my poor driving technique.

HeatFire
09-10-2017, 07:22
The Lotus 49 is still to fast and easy to drive even though its not "easy" to drive.
But its very possible to make it spin with misstreating the throttle and throwing it around.

quantendoc
09-10-2017, 07:37
I cannot comment on the handling, surprisingly, I do not have a real Lotus 49 available to try out :)

Guess there are not too many people who have one :p
Though I am watching a few of the old 60s races that even have onboard cameras (didn't know they had that back then) and the driver's workload is a fair bit higher than what I'd have to do in PC2 even when pushing it to the max. They constantly fight the car's tendency to lose the rear end, I'm constantly fighting to get the rear to step out, so I have to do the exact opposite. No corrections for bumps, no oversteer unless I crank the wheel into the corner followed by sharp braking (which usually is enough to throw away every car without stability control at those speeds) which gets me into a drift angle of about 5 to 10 degrees, then fully step on it and the car merely holds that angle as long as I want, no finesse needed to do that if you have a bit of muscle memory from other sims.

So compared to original footage this seems awfully grippy, nothing like the real Lotus 49 which according to real drivers was relatively easy to control but a beast to tame when going on throttle and especially when throttling out of corners.
I raced a friend of mine, me in the Lotus 49, him in a GT3 car. He couldn't keep up, even though I maxed out at 175 mph, but he was slower through corners. And he had a harder time controlling his GT3 car than I had in the Lotus. Funny thing is that I was vaping away driving one handed most of the time when there was no need to shift.


So if the car is actually that easy to control I won't complain. But as much as I try throwing it around nothing makes it spin. I was approaching the sharper downhill left hand corner at classic spa at 40 mph too fast, yanked the wheel left on the straight, then right to get into a slide, then left into the corner. I just zipped right through, downshifting to get the maximum power, but still only a shallow drift, no spin at all. Not even a critical situation. Also every assist is off, not just traction control and such, but also steering and braking assists.

At the same time I honestly struggle driving the F50 GT around a track without taking damage.


EDIT: I just tried All Terrain Tires, feels far better with them. While I only have to lift for two corners on classic Spa (the sharper left hand and the hairpin before start / finish) with Track Tires, the All Terrain ones make you fight more and force you to think about how to take your corners and how fast to approach them.
Feels exactly like the original race footage looks.


EDIT 2: With All Terrains I now also feel that jump in thrust at 6.500 rpm the real driver talked about:

"In itself the extra power isn't really a problem, but it does have a tendency to come in with a sudden rush at about 6,500 rpm [...]. Life can be a bit hectic when you are coming out of a corner and it suddenly hits on all eight."
Source: Interview with Jim Clark, 1967

HeatFire
09-10-2017, 08:16
So it might "just" be that they have it running on soft slicks physics and not the correct vintage tires?

quantendoc
09-10-2017, 08:24
So it might "just" be that they have it running on soft slicks physics and not the correct vintage tires?

Yup, seems like it. Vintage tires were a really hard compound which was the main issue about controlling those cars :p
Would explain why only vintage cars are affected by that insane amount of grip and newer cars behave perfectly fine.
The overall physics feel great in those old cars, and also the response you get from the tires. So nothing is off physics-wise, which would only leave the tire compound.

And since I switched to All Terrain I lost about $ 2 million worth of cars :rolleyes:
Taming them will be fun :D

Sankyo
09-10-2017, 08:36
So it might "just" be that they have it running on soft slicks physics and not the correct vintage tires?
What tyres do you guys have selected? "Automatic by weather" or the vintage bias-ply? IIRC there's also a modern track day tyre in the list for these cars?

quantendoc
09-10-2017, 08:44
In the setup I only have the option to select between Automatic, Track, All-Terrain and Ice (applies for all vintage cars I tested so far).
And it seems like the Track tires are a soft compound which explains the incredible amount of grip you get.
All-Terrain seems to be a hard compound and the Lotus 49 (have to test the other vintage cars now) feels faaaaaar better with them than it does with Track tires.

I see myself doing the same kind of constant corrections on the steering wheel, the same kind of counter steering through corners / on corner exit and I really feel the fear when going fast that way. I feel kind of exposed with just a minimum of car around me and at the edge of control trying to go as fast as possible.

So yeah, it seems like compounds for vintage tires got mixed up.

HeatFire
09-10-2017, 08:50
Maybe its as intended?
the Track tires are the modern tires and the All-terrain is the vintage.
Just wish they then renamed it like Modern Track and Vintage if that is the case.

BazzaLB
09-10-2017, 09:02
Hmmm, interesting. I too thought the Lotus 49 felt way too tame. I'll have to give it a go with all-terrain tyres. I much prefer a loose back end. I actually thought rf2 historic open wheelers feel great (Eve F1 is a beast) so was hoping for something similar in PC2.

Sessionerror
09-10-2017, 09:06
Maybe its as intended?
the Track tires are the modern tires and the All-terrain is the vintage.
Just wish they then renamed it like Modern Track and Vintage if that is the case.

They don't look like modern tires though. I remember the more modern slicks in Project CARS 1 for the vintage F1 cars, but those track tires in Project CARS 2 still look like vintage tires so I wouldn't expect that amount of grip.

JanvH
09-10-2017, 09:20
I thought too that the problem with the overly high stability from the classic Lotus might be the "track" tyre compound. The thing is that these cars can be thrown into corners and depending on your setup you can drift them in ways that I don't found believable, but it's always controllable and safe. Shouldn't these cars loose traction at same point where you really have to struggle with it? As much as I try to overcook it I just can't spin out in these cars. (Only under braking if I set the brake balance way to the rear)
What I noticed too is that the Lotus 51 is the only car out of them that has the option to choose "ff vintage" tyres and with those the handling and grip levels seem more like it. And although it's the least powered Lotus it's rather more fun than the Lotus 49 C imo.
As much as I love most of the way the cars behave and handle due to tyre flex and weight transfer, these Lotus seem too stable to enjoy them really.

I'd like to get some thoughts on this topic from the developers.

quantendoc
09-10-2017, 09:21
Yeah. They have the same treading, only different compound. Tracks seem to be soft, All-Terrains hard, no difference in profile though.

And yeah, changing the names would make it easier to notice.

Only problem is that if you host a multiplayer session you have the option to either lock the setup to default (which is Track tires) or let people build their own setup. So if you want to race with those old cars you'll either take the fun of "edge of control driving" out of it and have everyone drive the same setup (which is soft tires) or you allow custom setups, go for hard tires and have people join and run the soft Track tires and therefore beating you because of much more grip.
So it doesn't make much sense driving vintage classes competitively in a public lobby because you get closer to the edge of control in a more modern GTO car than in a vintage one on soft tires.
The whole passion for vintage racing comes from how different they behave and from the challenge you have to overcome.
And in turn you'll also become a better driver in new cars.

So modern racing tires for old cars? Absolutely yes! It's still fun^^
But it would be great to have Vintage tires by default so you can drive those beasts as intended and leave people the option to take modern tires when you don't want to rule them out.
Wouldn't want to have old cars with old handling restricted to leagues or to people who actually change to All-Terrain if you tell them to.
When only being able to properly drive old race series in leagues there won't be any new people trying out what vintage racing is all about. And those are a relatively small niche in race sims anyway, so it's hard to find others who like old cars.

And I guess a big purpose of PC2 is shifting the league only stuff you'd find in other sims to public lobbies so new people can actually find others to drive with and experience cars they didn't try before. Leagues are nice but they'd scare off newer people.

I mean overall you guys did a great job with PC2, I was really sceptical after the amount of bugs in the first one and stayed with rFactor 2. Now I'm driving in PC2 almost all the time because so much has changed for the better :D
But I really hope tires for vintage cars will be fixed so it's the original hard tire compound by default.

quantendoc
09-10-2017, 09:27
What I noticed too is that the Lotus 51 is the only car out of them that has the option to choose "ff vintage" tyres and with those the handling and grip levels seem more like it. And although it's the least powered Lotus it's rather more fun than the Lotus 49 C imo.

Interesting, just tried it and even in the Lotus 51 I can only choose between Track, All-Terrain and Ice. So it seems like there's a difference between the PS4 and the PC version then.

JanvH
09-10-2017, 12:21
Interesting, just tried it and even in the Lotus 51 I can only choose between Track, All-Terrain and Ice. So it seems like there's a difference between the PS4 and the PC version then.

Well that is strange, if anything I would've thought that PC has them but consoles don't.
I tested the Lotus 49 a lot with the all-terrain and also ice tyres on Brands Hatch. You definitely have less Grip and more wheelspin but basically the car just slides more, which requires more counter steering but it still feels too stable I think. Even though not comparable a car like the formula rookie is much more likely to spin out and harder to drive.

Imazagi
09-10-2017, 12:22
I made the same observations. The 49 is great fun to drive, but unbelievably easy and safe. Might need to try tires.

quantendoc
09-10-2017, 16:38
You definitely have less Grip and more wheelspin but basically the car just slides more, which requires more counter steering but it still feels too stable I think.

Well, I think it will be hard to tell unless we get a chance to interview Jim Clark himself ;)
But from what I've read about how the car was made and about the construction and from the understanding about how cars work I'd say that the Lotus 49 might have been just like that - might.
A solid and stable platform with really good characteristics and predictable handling,
a relatively stiff frame planted to the track surface with quite soft dampers and suspension.
The majority of the weight sits in the back where the engine is thus putting more weight - and therefore more grip - on the rear wheels.
So it should have had quite predictable oversteer characteristics.
Weight transfer must have been soaked up by the soft suspension which could have made it relatively stable under braking though still with a big tendency towards oversteer when braking too hard - which I also noticed - but quite stable and understeery when coasting through corners.
Power output being consistently high but releasing a burst of power at 6.500 rpm getting you into a more sudden slide.
Also I noticed it was easier to oversteer through and out of right hand corners during when the engine delivers power which would make me assume that the engine must have rotated clockwise and thus producing torque that pushes the rear end towards the left - really impressed with that, didn't think PC2 was that detailed.
My experiences on All-Terrains come pretty close to the quirks stated in interviews and steering the car looks quite close to the original race footage. It also feels like something you could expect from the way the car was constructed.

While I know that it is too grippy by default I can still only assume it's quite spot-on with All-Terrain tires, but no way of telling how close it actually comes to the real thing since I (obviously) never drove one so I can only derive from what I know about how the construction works and how it impacts handling characteristics. Not many people have the privilege of being allowed to drive one nowadays and grip levels on modern tracks are a bit different to those on historic tracks.

But in the end I think it all comes down to the tires in PC2, handling itself feels pretty much the way I'd expect it to feel judging by the whole construction of the 49.

rosko
09-10-2017, 17:15
Checked, TC down to 1 % (can't change that to 0) and ABS down to 0 % (why are those settings available if the car has no assists?).

Also tried with 100 %, but it doesn't matter. At 1 and 2 % as well as 100 % the car just does everything by itself. I don't even have to counter steer really.


EDIT: I just tried the Lotus 72D and it's quite a bit harder to not lose control than in the Lotus 49, even though the 72D has more grip and aerodynamic downforce.

Not really sure how you don't have counter steer as my car back end slides around all the time in fact i think it does this too much. You sure you have all driving aids set to off? 1% is the highest setting for TC but if you set to real assists then you shouldn't have the option of abs tc & sc.

Also a good time comparison is 2:17.51 @ cota as is the same layout & lS track. I'm interested if anyone easily beats that time.

rosko
09-10-2017, 17:17
Also the diff this car runs with is apparently wrong as should be cam & pawl & that would make a significant difference to handling. Also should be fixed gear ratio in setup.

quantendoc
09-10-2017, 17:21
Not really sure how you don't have counter steer as my car back end slides around all the time in fact i think it does this too much. You sure you have all driving aids set to off? 1% is the highest setting for TC but if you set to real assists then you shouldn't have the option of abs tc & sc.

Well, it's obviously not a problem with driving aids in that case. That's the first thing I set to off, can't deal with software taking control from me ;)

And it depends on what you want to do. Of course I get the rear end to step out, but it's just a matter of powering off corner to get it straight again, at most keeping the steering wheel centered out of the corner, but no counter steer needed. If you want to drive like on rails without hauling your rear around you'd sure have to counter steer.

But we already narrowed this problem down to the tire choice, vintage cars had no soft tires but soft is the default tire for the 49.

rosko
09-10-2017, 17:47
Well, it's obviously not a problem with driving aids in that case. That's the first thing I set to off, can't deal with software taking control from me ;)

And it depends on what you want to do. Of course I get the rear end to step out, but it's just a matter of powering off corner to get it straight again, at most keeping the steering wheel centered out of the corner, but no counter steer needed. If you want to drive like on rails without hauling your rear around you'd sure have to counter steer.

But we already narrowed this problem down to the tire choice, vintage cars had no soft tires but soft is the default tire for the 49.

Well im not sure it was confirmed about the tyres? i assumed bias-ply are the track tyres when driving a vintage car but re reading jussis comment maybe that is the case.

from jussi when i asked about the vintage tyres 'Tyres on the vintage road cars (I'm assuming you mean those?) are different from the modern ones overall. On them the Track tyre is probably closest to the Medium/P Zero Corsa/Nitto NT05 level tyre.'

Im interested to see if that 2:17.51 lap time can be beaten btw, i'm not especially fast especially around cota as im not familiar with it.

JanvH
09-10-2017, 18:03
@quantendoc: Do you use the loose setup? Since I'm on PS4 I only have the stable setup as preset and tried a bit to make the car more aggressive, but I don't know if the loose setup might give a better presentation of the car you are already witnessing and I'm not.

David Wright
09-10-2017, 18:12
Well, I think it will be hard to tell unless we get a chance to interview Jim Clark himself ;)


Funny you should say that

David Phipps: Do you feel that the chassis is as good as previous Lotus chassis you've driven?

Jim Clark: That's very difficult to answer. It's impossible to think of the chassis separately from the engine and tyres. We're running on a pretty rigid sort of tyre, which is fairly unforgiving, and in many ways we are back to the sort of conditions we had in 1960 with the Lotus 18. If you got the 18 out of line, except on full power, you were liable to be in trouble, and it's much the same with the 49. However, I think this is as much to do with the tyres as with the car, because when I tried Goodyears at Mosport it was possible to get much more attitude on and still feel completely under control. This made it easier to brake into a corner, or throw the car through a tight corner to keep the revs up- something we can't really do normally. And we've had the same sort of problem with the Formula Two car.

source: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/autocourse-back-in-time-interview-with-jim-clark-457812/

Lotus altered the suspension geometry for the 1968 Lotus 49B and the later 49C and Firestone introduced a new tyre. By all accounts these transformed the 49 into a forgiving car.

TylerDurden4321
09-10-2017, 18:21
To quote Dominic Brannon's review, who has the most stellar iRacing profile I've ever seen, is at the top of the current pCARS2 Bathurst community challenge leaderboard, worked with different hardware manufacturers and basically single handedly saved DiRT Rally by pointing out to Codemasters what's wrong about their very early access FFB when they invited him (it was awful in the first months):

I’ve never driven a Lotus 49, but it seems fairly obvious that you shouldn’t be able to floor a 400hp car with zero downforce out of corners in the dry, let alone the wet, but you can do exactly that. I would suggest that the current state of the Lotus 49 grip in the ‘Rain’ condition is roughly how it should be behaving in the dry (and even then it’s nearly too forgiving!).
source: Road to VR Project CARS 2 review (https://www.roadtovr.com/project-cars-2-vr-review-oculus-rift-htc-vive/)

...and I tried all the cars on the "track" tire compund, a few are ...Ok'ish like the Ferrari 330p or Ford GT40, others are bad like all the pre 72 lotus cars, but some are abysmally awful:

The 69 Camaro doesn't oversteer even if you force it by braking, downshifting, chucking the wheel, flooring the throttle: it starts to oversteer then bogs the engine and wobbles itself back to neutral/understeer.
The Nissan 240Z defaults to wet tires on a dry track, if you put on "track" tires, it has so much understeer that it's basically undriveable.
The Jaguar E-type oscillates to and forth laterally if you overpower it in a corner.

I know, I sound like one of those negative a-holes on this forum, but I actually love ~80% of the cars in pCARS2. I'm just coming back from trying out the GT Sport demo and it's absolutely unbelievable what devs like SMS and Kunos have achieved while GT has basically stayed where it was 15 years ago. I applaud SMS for this great game, but please don't tell me the track tires aren't wrong. They're even broken somewhat - if you look at the "what is wrong with the camaro"-thread in the technical section of this forum, I made a video how more oversteery setups for that car lead to frame drops of over 1s (that's ~100 frames from my normal framerate).

quantendoc
09-10-2017, 18:59
Yes, loose setup is default on PC, though I usually build more oversteery setups because in many cars loose is just too tight :rolleyes:
Great choice for beginners though since it's a bit easier to get used to the tire physics if you don't run a super fast setup right out of the box.

Using loose for the old cars though.

@ David Wright: Yeah, noticed the Lotus being quite forgiving with the All-Terrains which I assume should be the actual Vintage compound. Tough beast, but you have insane amounts of control over it still. The default track tires are wrong though, basically just a binary input on your pedal. Either fully released or fully depressed, no need for anything in between because you can't lose control unless you REALLY want to or are a beginner learning the car.
Plus I'm only driving the 49, not the 49C which was much improved compared to the original 49.

@ TylerDurden: Yup, exactly. Flooring a 400 hp car should get you into a LOT of trouble, knowing how to modulate throttle and developing a lot of feel for the car is mandatory in those things. Same observation with the old Camaro too. No way of getting it to oversteer, not even a burnout is possible. It's like 410 hp and 5 Nm of torque. Stellar sound, quite fun, but it drives like a front wheel driven car.

Overall it seems like the tires for vintage cars are all mixed up. The feeling of what your tires do is great in every car I tested so far, so tire model is working. The compounds and grip levels just seem to be all over the place.

EDIT: Yes, 2:17.51 can indeed be beaten. Didn't quite get there but I'm running 2:20 - 2:21 just driving around a bit. I'm really bad at that track, but got to 2:23 in my first attempt, followed by 2:21 and 2:20.
With hard tires this is a whole other story though.

BazzaLB
09-10-2017, 22:19
I can't for the life of me get the tail to hang out in dry conditions. Tried all terrain tyres. All assists off. Even got RE to give as much turn in as possible. Stable as anything. If rear kicks out there is no need for feathering throttle, just keep your foot flat, steer straight and it kicks itself back into line. It needs no finesse what so ever.

Its certainly nothing like rf2 historic open wheelers or my "vintage racer with plenty of grunt and no down force" expectations. Tbh, all the historic open wheelers seem very tame.

Bliman
09-10-2017, 23:47
Yeah it is incredible stable.
But I think it would be interesting to put some video's up, because I feel something weird is going on.
Some have a different experience.
It would be interesting if those people who have a different experience choose a car (choose the same setup) put on authentic and choose the same track, so we (and developers) can compare the footage.
I also read this with other cars on this forum, some say that the Porsche carrera is undrivable and some say it is to stable (mine is very stable).
The same with Formula Rookie if you put on wet tyres I basically can't get the car to spin but when I put on dry tyres it becomes much more difficult and you will spin.
Don't know if these are all related.

vegaguy5555
10-10-2017, 03:36
Is there a solution or is sms looking into it?

I notice the original cars in general don't feel as good as the new cars.

quantendoc
10-10-2017, 07:23
Alright, made a quick and dirty video showcasing the difference in handling between the two tire compounds. Notice the accelerator and brake pedal inputs on the bottom right, in the first part I can simply use binary input, either full or nothing. In the second part this isn't possible at all.
This is not meant to showcase differences in lap times, but to compare the different grip levels and finesse required. I did slide more than I would usually when doing hot laps.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr8vvigci3U&feature=youtu.be

BazzaLB
10-10-2017, 07:44
It still seems to drift more than oversteer in all terrain. That last corner where the backend finally does really step out comes back to straight quite drastically. You'd expect a bit of snap in other direction with the speed it came around to straight again.

Neither seem right imo. Hate to say it but even AC seems to have a more believable L49 (mind you, it was abysmal on first release). Hope Doug will have a looksie :)

quantendoc
10-10-2017, 07:55
That last corner where the backend finally does really step out comes back to straight quite drastically. You'd expect a bit of snap in other direction with the speed it came around to straight again.

Well, the back end really stepped out because I went full throttle there, in the other corners I always balanced the rear by modulating throttle and steering. In the last corner I wanted to demonstrate what happens if you fully step on it, which makes the rear end go around quite a bit. And I expected the car to fishtail, that's why I corrected back to the right before the rear end could break away in the other direction. Had I not corrected the snap to the other direction I would have spun out there.

But even though it feels really nice with the other tires I agree it seems there is some more work to be done.

BazzaLB
10-10-2017, 07:58
Well, the back end really stepped out because I went full throttle there, in the other corners I always balanced the rear by modulating throttle and steering. In the last corner I wanted to demonstrate what happens if you fully step on it, which makes the rear end go around quite a bit. And I expected the car to fishtail, that's why I corrected back to the right before the rear end could break away in the other direction. Had I not corrected the snap to the other direction I would have spun out there.

Ahh ok. I tried all terrain tyres and it still seemed to just want to drive straight with a little rear end wiggle. No real finesse required. I might give it another go.

quantendoc
10-10-2017, 08:04
Yeah, for me the rear end gets quite unstable. Which platform are you on? Judging by your signature I'd say PC^^ Double check you have the loose setup loaded, on consoles stable setup is default, on PC it should default to loose. Though judging by your gear I won't assume you changed it to stable.

BazzaLB
10-10-2017, 08:24
Yep, PC. Well, It doesn't matter what I do, the rear end, even if it steps out, will just come back to straight even if I leave my foot solidly planted on the loud pedal. I double checked that all assists were off. I deleted my setup, loaded SMS loose, set all-terrain tyres and ran around spa. Even on the straight after Eau Rouge, i can yank the wheel left right left right left right and never feel like losing control. All the back does is step out slightly and then just come back immediately to attention with my foot solidly planted on the throttle. So, no idea. Either way, the L49 is not the beast it used to be :)

I think I need a hand brake to get the rear to step out :D

quantendoc
10-10-2017, 09:06
I double checked that all assists were off. I deleted my setup, loaded SMS loose, set all-terrain tyres and ran around spa.

Btw, after you change the tires and then save the setup (I just overwrite the loose one in that case) exit out of the setup screen and then go back to see if the tires are still set correctly.
In my case there's a bug that saved setups sometimes revert to default after exiting out of the setup screen. If assists are set to off that's the only thing I could think of.

If that's not the case I guess you'll have to invest some money to get a custom built L49 with hand brake :cool:

BazzaLB
10-10-2017, 09:57
Ok, I put all terrain on the back and bumped the pressure up and left track tyres on the front at standard pressures. Now we're talking :D

quantendoc
10-10-2017, 10:02
Now we're talking :D

Nice :D Well, that's the pro of being able to select tires the car didn't have originally^^

quantendoc
10-10-2017, 10:16
terima kasih untuk posting

huh?

JanvH
10-10-2017, 10:16
I think the car slides way too much instead of really breaking traction and getting into snap oversteer (like the more modern open wheelers/formula cars already do in the game.) Especially with the all-terrain tyres you can drive it basically like a rally x car, throwing it into corners using powerslides. Somehow the grip levels don't seem right with these vintage Lotus.

Trooper117
10-10-2017, 10:35
Interesting thread, I enjoy driving the Lotus 25 and 49... love the old 60's Grand Prix cars, we need more of them!

quantendoc
10-10-2017, 10:49
@ JanvH: If you refer to the video I did that on purpose. Would have driven with more grip on a hotlap.
Agreed though, it's a bit too easy to slide. You have some snap oversteer around the 6.500 rpm mark when staying on throttle, but below that rpm going at low speeds it's hard to get some traction when accelerating.

Something between All-Terrain and Track tires would be correct, closer to All-Terrain than to Track.

@ Trooper117: Agreed, I love them :D

Leynad
10-10-2017, 11:42
In this video it seems relatively easy to drive, but the setup is on understeer and keeping the car straight is likely mandatory.

https://youtu.be/Opzzn9sl1kU

But like the Nissan GTP, which should be very difficult to drive, both cars have some magic stability that just is not true for sure. Other related issues i mentioned here already (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?51345-Some-desirable-features-for-incoming-patches&p=1388263&viewfull=1#post1388263).

Mark Silcock
10-10-2017, 11:51
Checked, TC down to 1 % (can't change that to 0) and ABS down to 0 % (why are those settings available if the car has no assists?).

Also tried with 100 %, but it doesn't matter. At 1 and 2 % as well as 100 % the car just does everything by itself. I don't even have to counter steer really.


EDIT: I just tried the Lotus 72D and it's quite a bit harder to not lose control than in the Lotus 49, even though the 72D has more grip and aerodynamic downforce.

Realise this didnt help but I think TC of 1% is basically full TC and anything about 25% is TC essentially off, strange terminology in my view. Agree this car should have those settings available only fake assists for those that need them.

BazzaLB
10-10-2017, 12:05
These L49 track tyres have too little latitudinal grip and way too much longitudinal grip. You can't break traction via engine power to the back wheels but break traction too easily when cornering (all 4 wheel drift). I don't think its a case of just lower grip but an adjustment to grip in 2 directions. One requires an increase, the other requires a decrease.

That save setup seems quite buggy. Sometimes change of tyre compound wouldn't stick.

Leynad
10-10-2017, 12:24
The "authentic" driving assists are broken and till SMS hopefully fix this, you need to do it manually, so turn the s##t off please. The title could be more popular without this unnecessary bug.

vegaguy5555
10-10-2017, 14:13
I don't find AC's 49 much better. I can still hold it to the floor too easy compared to rF2, especially when comparing to the F1 Spark.

rosko
10-10-2017, 15:01
non of these sims are accurate.

Bliman
10-10-2017, 16:38
The "authentic" driving assists are broken and till SMS hopefully fix this, you need to do it manually, so turn the s##t off please. The title could be more popular without this unnecessary bug.

Is this confirmed by the developers?
If this is the case then it would be interesting to try the car with assists off.

vegaguy5555
10-10-2017, 16:51
What exactly do they mean? How many places are there that need to be turned off?

DreamsKnight
10-10-2017, 17:01
Alright, made a quick and dirty video showcasing the difference in handling between the two tire compounds. Notice the accelerator and brake pedal inputs on the bottom right, in the first part I can simply use binary input, either full or nothing. In the second part this isn't possible at all.
This is not meant to showcase differences in lap times, but to compare the different grip levels and finesse required. I did slide more than I would usually when doing hot laps.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr8vvigci3U&feature=youtu.be


don't seems so bad

https://youtu.be/V6cm3eWEHM0?t=7m32s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opzzn9sl1kU&t=68s

quantendoc
10-10-2017, 17:07
Yes, the one in rFactor 2 is extremely hard and great fun to tame.
BUT I have to say if cars handled the way they do in rF2 I would have crashed my real car on just about every corner. rF2 is like driving on ice - which is fun and gives you a great sense of accomplishment if you can handle those cars. While the physics simulation is great, the grip levels there are unrealistically low, especially when it comes to lateral grip. rF2 is just its own category of race sim and while the grip is far too low it does make you a better sim racer overall. I profited a lot from it when it comes to car control.
Which is why I thought it might be only me feeling the Lotus has too much grip. But when looking at what it does under power, under braking and when cornering I saw that there were some flaws.

But in general that's where Project CARS 2 really shines - great physics AND great grip levels overall. It just seems like in some cars the grip is off which needs to be addressed at some point.

@ DreamsKnight: Yes, but the thing you can't see there is how much throttle control they need to get that performance. But right now the Lotus feels as if there was nothing you could possibly do wrong, no way of crashing it unless you crash into other cars. You could easily hop into it as a simracing newcomer who has not developed any car control and finesse and just perform really well with only very few spins. That goes against everything the drivers of the original Lotus described.

When professionals drive it it sure looks far easier. But you have a 400 + hp car there with almost no weight to it and it was built when there was no traction control and no downforce. That alone is a recipe for trouble if you don't know what you're doing ;)

Plus Alexander Rossi is not pushing the limits. Race pace would be a lot scarier, but he's not allowed to do that to prevent crashes that could happen. It's an invaluable historic car after all, a piece of racing history.

DreamsKnight
10-10-2017, 17:29
honestly you see IRL driver have oversteer entering the corner (alexander rossi video) and not exiting. this is happen cause front tires have tons of grip and it is not so easy to block under bracking.
instead in sims usually it's pretty easy to have blocked front tires and massive understeer. and also pc2 seems to me on this way.

quantendoc
10-10-2017, 17:38
Yeah, that's why I switched to track tires on the front and All-Terrains on the back. Much closer to how it should be.
Those old cars should be oversteery, if you have no oversteer on corner exit it is because you modulate your throttle really well, not because the car didn't do it. On newer tracks you also have more grip, old race tracks were basically public roads. So that makes a huge difference.

Also the question is what tires Alexander Rossi used there. They might also have more grip than the original ones. In the first video you can see how those cars came out of corners with their rear end sliding and that's what I would expect. You have to have finesse to do that, just a few degrees, no drifting. That's nothing you could do by just mindlessly flooring it after you hit the apex.

Hard to tell really, but I expect old cars to behave much less tame than new ones, especially when they have that much power.

Sloskimo
10-10-2017, 18:27
Yeah, that's why I switched to track tires on the front and All-Terrains on the back. Much closer to how it should be.
Those old cars should be oversteery, if you have no oversteer on corner exit it is because you modulate your throttle really well, not because the car didn't do it. On newer tracks you also have more grip, old race tracks were basically public roads. So that makes a huge difference.

Also the question is what tires Alexander Rossi used there. They might also have more grip than the original ones. In the first video you can see how those cars came out of corners with their rear end sliding and that's what I would expect. You have to have finesse to do that, just a few degrees, no drifting. That's nothing you could do by just mindlessly flooring it after you hit the apex.

Hard to tell really, but I expect old cars to behave much less tame than new ones, especially when they have that much power.

It's a curious case this one, since I do come out of corners sliding ever so slightly with it, and full throttle will cause trouble once it's at that point. The TC should be at 100, which means no TC, not sure why SMS implemented it that way. It's very counter intuitive for, well just about anybody :)

Pcars 1 had a weird thing going for it also with the Lotus 49, used to do some TT battles with this one guy, we were very evenly matched. We were close in just about any car, but in the lotus 49 he absolutely murdered me on all tracks. The 49C was fine, within a few tenths as usual, but he put 1-3 secs into me in the regular 49, it was the only car where this happened. Not only me, guys he would be 1-2 secs behind in all cars, he'd beat in TT with it. Makes one wonder if there's something weird going on. The car not driving the same, somehow, for different people?

It's a conspiracy theory! haha.

All I know is I do have oversteer issues with it, but did notice after watching your Brno vid, that yes when applying full throttle mid corner, it happily plows straight on understeering. Once I properly brake late and try to sort of hit the apex though, it becomes an issue to keep it going where I want to. Once I unsettle it, it becomes a handful for me.

Car probably needs to be looked at, by someone more proficient than me. I really have no clue what it should be like, not a lot of nice footage available in youtube either. The modern vids are guys pussy-footing it around usually because they don't want to be known as "that guy" who wrecked a nice vintage car.

quantendoc
10-10-2017, 18:40
:D Yeah

I just tried it with TC set to 100 but still the same thing. Unless I touch the grass I can't spin or anything, only if I really want to. Full throttle mid corner makes my rear step out to about 10 degrees and it just stays there and corrects itself at some point, when holding the wheel a degree or two to the opposite side I can cancel the oversteer. I know something must be wrong if i set the second fastest lap on Nordschleife leaderboard on my first lap because I'm still pretty much learning to drive the old cars. I sank a lot of hours into them but there's still a long way to go usually.

With the other tires on the rear and default Track ones at the front it feels a lot more like I am used to, no harsh inputs but certainly possible to step on it when you get the correct amount of oversteer.

Really strange...

Sloskimo
10-10-2017, 18:53
:D Yeah

I just tried it with TC set to 100 but still the same thing. Unless I touch the grass I can't spin or anything, only if I really want to. Full throttle mid corner makes my rear step out to about 10 degrees and it just stays there and corrects itself at some point, when holding the wheel a degree or two to the opposite side I can cancel the oversteer. I know something must be wrong if i set the second fastest lap on Nordschleife leaderboard on my first lap because I'm still pretty much learning to drive the old cars. I sank a lot of hours into them but there's still a long way to go usually.

With the other tires on the rear and default Track ones at the front it feels a lot more like I am used to, no harsh inputs but certainly possible to step on it when you get the correct amount of oversteer.

Really strange...

You're third fastest now :) I ran it also yesterday, but same thing, first time out there with that car and while I did get myself into trouble, it was not that hard. Especially since I did it after a whole lot of beer, so even I can probably dip into the 7:10 range without beer. Disclaimer: Do NOT drink and drive in real life, or something like that, it's bad. So I can see the really fast people going close to the 7 minute mark.

Maybe we should try and crowdfund a Lotus 49 so we can find out what it's really like hehe. Then again that would probably end up at $32.43 raised, so yeah :)

quantendoc
10-10-2017, 19:05
:P Darn, now I have to claim back my position...

So yeah, competition is still there and it's fun if you battle for every tenth (while actually a bit "unrealistic" since they only looked at their watches and rounded to the nearest second, glad we have proper timing in sims :P).
And nope, won't do that irl. Even when drinking only one glass of beer (which isn't much really) I won't even drive the whole next day. Got my license quite some years ago and I set that as a personal rule when I got it. Still obeying that^^
Better overly cautious in some regards than not caring enough :D

Would totally love to crowdfund one, I'd volunteer as a driver :P

rosko
10-10-2017, 19:43
The only thing i agree with regarding the handling is that its easy but car has plenty of oversteer & is controlled with opposite lock & throttle. If anything its lateral grip going into corners that feels too slidey & i'm always doing four wheel slides.

I've watch 9 days in summer enough times but I still have no idea how the real car drives.

BazzaLB
10-10-2017, 20:53
The only thing i agree with regarding the handling is that its easy but car has plenty of oversteer & is controlled with opposite lock & throttle. If anything its lateral grip going into corners that feels too slidey & i'm always doing four wheel slides.

I've watch 9 days in summer enough times but I still have no idea how the real car drives.

None of this oversteer and control via opposite lock, throttle exists in my version of the game. Its just 4 wheel drifting.

vegaguy5555
10-10-2017, 22:00
I have drove more then a few over powered cars in the eighties and we did drink a lot in those days.
One thing I can testify to is most of us here, including me, wouldn't have the guts to go much over 150 mph, especially in a Lotus 49. A simulator is soooo sterile that it's hard to tell I'm moving at anything under a 100 mph. I have had people sware at me approaching 80.

A real driver is only as fast as they are crazy.

As far as the 49 in PC2 is considered you shouldn't be able to just hold it to the floor without ripping the tires off the back and doing about seven donuts into wall. This car is way off. I would say the rFactor 2 67 F1's are tame compared to real life.

Now a car like the 288 GTO is closer. The way each tire grabs when braking causing the back end to get loose is what I remember. Slowing down was usually just or even more exciting at times. Now that I think of it, the 288 has a hairer acceleration then the 49.

haydnbuzz
10-10-2017, 22:04
To me the Lotus 49 is the most thoroughbred racer there is. It’s a thing of perfection and requires real driving ability to tame let alone master. There’s so little footage of the beast on the limit but most of the best is period footage trackside. One thing in my mind is certain it’s a car that’s steered entirely on the throttle. The attitude of the car is adjusted by throttle inputs and lap time comes from doing this well. For this you need to get beyond the understeer and start working on the finest of throttle modulation. In my opinion the car should be fastest when four wheel drifting starting long before the apex.

Unfortunately I’ve never read any particularly insightful accounts of this beast by anyone in the know. Frankly Alexander Rossi’s footage wants to make me weep because of the abuse. Clearly he is a very competent and competitive driver but the product of his time. Historic racing still remains very competitive and surely tires even if they are attempts to make as accurately as possible to period these must be superior to those of the time for various reasons. I’ve heard of some of the Chapman vehicles suffering in particular with more modern superior tyres causing failures for suspension components with the increased loads.

In terms of what I class as an accurate representation to my mind in sim racing there have only ever been a few good ones. I dismiss AC’s version entirely and find it laughable. I spent a little time playing about with it to beat the Clark challenge at Monza but it just felt entirely wrong for me in what I believe would be an accurate representation. For me out of more modern stuff the much disputed AC 1967 SimDreams stuff has the nearest representation of cars of the ear and characteristics. I loved PCars version though there was some strangeness with the tyres on release that was never fully clarified as far as I can remember. All the right traits for me were there however to my mind. I spent many hours on setups and did a lot of TT’s in this car. For the record I always drive with assists off, clutch off (important as you can also steer on your heel & toe downshifts with the speed you’re releasing the clutch) and a H pattern shifter. For me if you’re doing anything else you’re doing it wrong and missing the majority of the fun and reward that comes from driving it. PCars 1 certainly had it nailed in places though I believed the standard setup was far too safe and probably put some off if they didn’t spend the time to dial it in to tastes.

I agree with others here in that the “Track” tyre seems to have too much grip. Still set up a winter’s wet day anywhere and you’ll not be able to keep the right foot planted that’s for sure and the cars character will come through. The “All Terrain” tyres to me feel much more accurate if lacking in outright grip. Setup an event in the same conditions as above and you’ll not be flooring the 400hp on tap almost anywhere. To me in dry condition the tyre feels as though it’s just lacking grip on a greasy track. As I’ve been playing about at Donnington maybe the genius’ at SMS factored in the greasy circuit as a result from being directly under an airports flight path who knows? I haven’t even played with setups with this car yet but can’t wait to dial it into my tastes. Ideally I’d like see a tyre with which is halfway or just under between the “All Terrain” & “Track” tyres then I’ll consider myself in heaven. As it is the “All Terrain” tyre is pretty close for me.

quantendoc
10-10-2017, 22:32
For the record I always drive with assists off, clutch off (important as you can also steer on your heel & toe downshifts with the speed you’re releasing the clutch) and a H pattern shifter. For me if you’re doing anything else you’re doing it wrong and missing the majority of the fun and reward that comes from driving it.

Exactly. You can do it if you don't have enough money to buy a wheel and shifter but only with full H-pattern shift, clutch and heel & toe technique you'll really see the fun of driving vintage cars. That kind of setup is also needed to get the most out of them. They're so incredibly fun and rewarding.
I also drive GT3 for the wheel to wheel racing and because it's relatively clean in general, but nothing beats the true beasts that are vintage race cars for me.


@ vegaguy: Yeah, you can call those speeds many names: Crazy, insane, mad, haunting, scary, ...
On a perfectly straight part of the "Autobahn" during the rare occasion of having zero traffic for many miles ahead I reached 153 mph and decelerated to comfortable 90 mph just six seconds later.
!!! DON'T do this with traffic around, you only endanger everyone!!!
In this case it was a safe environment: perfect weather; no bumps; no traffic at all, I was the only one there driving in that direction; no unexpected situations on track; the car was in perfect shape with fresh tires.
But even then it was just intimidating even though the car was absolutely planted. Normal speeds on the Autobahn are about 100 mph, I wouldn't dare going faster even with only little traffic around, I won't even go beyond 90 mph. The thought of going 150 mph with traffic all around is just off the charts insane, hit a bump you don't expect, let traffic change lanes unexpectedly and you and (even more problematic) any others in your car or the other cars around you are done for.

From that alone I learnt quite a bit:
Speeds like these have nothing to do on public roads;
People constantly overtake you at their regular "cruise" speed of 150, 160, even 180 and they are in fact a danger to EVERYONE around them because they have absolutely no time to react;
You can't be sure to make it through even very fast bends if there's an unexpected bump in the road;
Race car drivers are maniacs :D

Though I have to say I learnt a lot in sim racing that helped me in real life driving on public roads.
1. I learnt to spot potentially critical situations before they become critical and I am constantly improving this by also focusing on that whenever I drive irl
2. I learnt to always keep an escape plan ready so I can dodge if there's something unexpected happening without ramming others while doing so
3. I improved my spatial awareness (in sims i have to get an idea of what is going on around me while having no visibility around, in real life I have all that visibility and really know to use that to stay on top of things - which I couldn't do when freshly getting my license)
4. I learnt that a dangerous situation always comes right into your face really fast which is why I am glad about points 1 and 2 and
5. I learnt to treat every close call that might happen (only had two since I started sim racing and I could avoid both of them by using point 1) as if it was also partly my fault and to always analyze what I could have done differently because 98 % of all critical situations can be avoided in the first place.
(Might open a thread of its own... what did you learn from sim racing - just an idea, some people have awesome stories to share and others could learn from them :D)


So yeah! I guess most of us wouldn't be comfortable at high speeds, especially in racing conditions. Of course everyone could become a race car driver, but even if you can learn stuff from sims since they are so accurate nowadays, there'll always be one thing that prevents you from becoming a real race car driver unless you get used to it: The sheer speed and the terror you must feel when your car is carried towards the outside of a corner the first couple times!

BazzaLB
11-10-2017, 00:19
I tried the car in the wet. Strangely enough it seemed to become completely gutless. Have to agree though that driving in the wet on "automatic by weather type" tyres feels a bit more like it... If and only if I up the pressures on the rear to something extreme like 2.0, but you can still just keep your foot planted even when the back steps out and it will obediently just come back around to straight gain. I got the back end to come up going through Eau Rouge and just keep the fronts facing in the direction I wanted to travel with my foot planted on the floor. It just came back to straight. No fear of losing control what so ever. Nothing I try makes this thing remotely feel nervous under any conditions. If the power wasn't mysteriously down in the wet maybe it would be better.

I too much preferred the original pcars 1 version. Btw AC L49 on release was a joke. Its completely different now. You have to feather the throttle at least and cannot just mash it to the floor both into and out of the corner. I'm not saying its perfect (rf2 historic open wheelers feel miles better in general but they don't have a L49) but its nowhere near as tame as PC2 current implementation.

Either way, I would prefer a much more tail happy on acceleration L49 however that is achieved. My feeling is there needs to be much more lateral grip and much less longitudinal grip not just a blanket "less grip all around" tire.

That setup tuning screen seems really bugged. Half the time my changes don't stick even after saving.

Civic
11-10-2017, 02:51
I think those who love the legend of the L49 have certain expectations about how the car would drive based on various videos, interviews, test drives and historic accounts and from driving it in other games that reinforce those expectations. I don't think the PCARS2 version of this car lives up to the expectations some of us have.

PeteUplink
11-10-2017, 09:24
I've only ever driven the Grand Prix Legends Lotus, and the Project Cars versions of the car are not as hard to drive. However, I have no idea which is the more realistic.

Trooper117
11-10-2017, 10:00
To be honest, I don't really worry whether the 49 (or 25) is close to the real thing or not...
I'm aware I'm only in a game, I can't really be killed or injured, I certainly am not any kind of expert or have driven any kind of real racing car from any era.
Yet, knowing all of this, all I know is when I'm in game in one of those open wheel Grand Prix cars I'm loving it and scaring myself to death.
As a young kid, the drivers of those cars were my hero's, and this is as close I am going to get to the thrills and spills (but not the danger) that they went through.
Hats off to the dev's... this alone was worth the cost of the game :)

citroenfan
11-10-2017, 10:40
I don't really buy the suggestion that the car should be desperately hard to drive at nine-tenths (the level at which most people drive). Remember this car was designed to be driven for 100 laps at Monaco in a single stint or for three hours at Spa. It wasn't designed to be impossible - Chapman was all about winning and selling customer cars. When Martin Brundle test drove it he remarked on how 'tractable' it was. Despite pushing it hard it didn't get very sideways at any point in the test. Then watch Jim Clark - I have not seen him ever get the car as sideways as sim-drivers. That's not to say its not possible but you had to be careless and the careless did not live long in 1967.

I find the 49 most convincing when I stiffen the front slightly and stiffen the back very considerably (using track tyres). Maybe also put the brake bias back at some tracks. The turn in is then more abrupt but you do get snap oversteer. It is also much more difficult to get the power down. (Although this was never as impossible as some imagine - watch some GP starts on cold tyres. The wheels spin but the cars remain largely straight). The default setups are too soft and the car just wallows around. This should really penalise your speed but for some reason in PC2 it doesn't have much effect on overall times.

People have to remember that tyres make a big difference. Lotus couldn't get the original tyres to really work despite the efforts of some of the best engineers in the world. Only when they changed them later in the season did the car start to handle much more predictably. Modern tyres - even those built to vintage specifications - handle differently again.

I have never driven an F1 car (obviously!) but have done quite a bit of rallying. You get the car professionally set up for one brand of tyres and sometimes when you change the brand you have to start over if you are going to be competitive - especially if the tread is marginally different. Sometimes just cutting a slightly different tread on the same brand causes a notable change.

I certainly don't think PC2 is perfect but I think we need to cut them some slack on this.

Sankyo
11-10-2017, 10:45
I've only ever driven the Grand Prix Legends Lotus, and the Project Cars versions of the car are not as hard to drive. However, I have no idea which is the more realistic.
It is said that a famous British race driver (I think Jackie Stewart?) commented once that he didn't remember these cars to be as hard to drive as they are in GPL.

BazzaLB
11-10-2017, 10:49
I don't think anyone is asking for it to be made difficult. If anything, you could go faster if the thing didn't 4 wheel drift left right and center. At the moment you may as well use a button for your throttle.

Also, the rear end is so stable that if this is accurate, one wonders why they bothered putting a rear wing on the 49C :D

BazzaLB
11-10-2017, 11:12
Ok boys. They have added Vintage tyres to the setup options of the L49 in patch 2.0. Its miles better :D

JanvH
11-10-2017, 12:39
Wow, this actually made a huge difference. Feels like a totally different car right now with the vintage tyres. The Lotus 25 is even more fun. So this was intended the whole time, since the patch was done a while ago this can't be a reaction to people criticizing the vintage Lotus. Anyway awesome job guys and thanks a lot for adding that option!

vegaguy5555
11-10-2017, 13:32
Does it get loose now?

BazzaLB
11-10-2017, 13:36
Does it get loose now?

It sure does. Its quite a handful. You HAVE to warm up the tires too. Plant your foot and the rears light up... On the straight...in multiple gears when tires are cold.

rosko
11-10-2017, 15:01
Hope they do that with some of the other vintage cars.

DreamsKnight
11-10-2017, 15:11
quantendoc give us infos, i'm interested in your opinion. :)

PeteUplink
11-10-2017, 15:36
It is said that a famous British race driver (I think Jackie Stewart?) commented once that he didn't remember these cars to be as hard to drive as they are in GPL.

Actually, I think I remember that quote. It came up on the GTR forums.

quantendoc
11-10-2017, 15:44
Hey :D

Just saw there was an update, downloading it right now. About 4 minutes remaining, then I'll have a go. Can't wait

@ citroenfan: I think you are right with that too, but you also have to remember that those guys were professional race drivers. Easy handling for them might still be undriveable for many simmers who have not enough practice with old cars.
In my opinion the real car most certainly didn't behave like it does in rF2. Fun to drive, but too hard for long races, faaaaar to easy to make (potentially fatal) errors.
But also not as easy as the 1 or 0 throttle handling on Track tires in PC2. So I'd expect something in between. Relatively easy to drive and handle, but only if you have a feeling for your throttle pedal and know about throttle steering. Smash the accelerator down and you'll have a problem when not being careful, but certainly possible to drive more aggressively without dying instantly :D

By now the update is finished, I'll give it a go now and give an opinion shortly.


EDIT: Ok, tested it for a few hours now. It feels gorgeous. The car is really scary on cold tires, but it handles beautifully on warm ones. Relatively easy to handle as long as you know how much throttle you can apply and you can stay in control for hours without risking your race when accepting the understeer that comes with no downforce. Though if you want to push you can have your rear help you through a corner with great precision as long as you have a feel for your accelerator. Takes a while to learn, far longer to master, but it is a rewarding experience and nowhere near as undriveable as in some other sims. You feel that there's quite a bit of grip, just need to know how to get the most out of it.

Braking also feels a lot better. You can beautifully control your wheels to keep them at the verge of blocking by modulating the brake pedal so they just have a slight bit of slip and you get rewarded by remarkable braking distances. The rear end tends to have a mind of its own when you just hit the brakes without planning ahead. So you will have to stay on top of things and always keep in mind how to approach a corner.

Overall it's easy to learn when going slow and increasing your speed lap by lap but quite a handful if you mistreat it. Very unforgiving when just slamming down the pedal, quite forgiving when treating it with respect.
It pretty much feels exactly like I'd imagine it. The construction, stiffness of parts used and so on dictate certain handling characteristics and it comes very close to that expectation.

I've watched many more old races from that era by now so I noticed something really interesting about how the drivers were approaching their races:
They were all going at about the same pace most of the time. But sometimes you'd see a driver go significantly faster and also a bit more sideways through corners carrying more speed onto the straights. Though only for a short portion of the track. Only to overtake another driver, then they went back to the same pace. So the difference in speeds between race pace and pushing was quite big. When pushing they took a far bigger risk so they made it count. Then they went back to a slower pace so they could make the full distance without risking their car.

So it seems like for long races we might also need a different approach to how we race those vintage cars, with a clear line between going for the distance and pushing to gain a position.
You could push all race, but the risk outweighs the benefit most of the time.

The devs did an awesome job with those tires and the physics in my opinion, very well done :D

AVO
11-10-2017, 17:57
Now it spins the tires but while spinning in straight line the car gains yaw stability.
Come on guys, tell me this is a joke...

Trooper117
11-10-2017, 19:34
Using the vintage tyres now... life is good :)

TylerDurden4321
11-10-2017, 21:03
Has some tire-squeal issues, could need a tiny tweak and not sure if over- to understeer is perfect, but overall I'm really happy with the vintage tires!

Thanks and a big hug to all the team members involved!

BazzaLB
12-10-2017, 04:20
I'm not sure why people think the historic open wheelers are so hard in rf2. I quite regularly take out the EVE F1 and its a joy to drive. Plenty of lateral grip. I don't find myself nevously waiting for an accident by any stretch. If anything it has more lateral grip than the new L49 vintage tyres in PC2. The main difference now is that bagging up the rear on the straight in rf2 generates sideways yaw as the old diff dumps majority of the torque to a single wheel. But the PC2 lotus could probably do with a bit of this instability as well when abused. Its very well behaved when lighting up the rears on the straight.

The new PC2 vintage tyre is much better than the previous dry track tyre. I am happy with the longitudinal grip reduction. I do think the lateral grip level is a little low but no biggie. A much more enjoyable experience for me.

Civic
12-10-2017, 11:04
So I only got to try this car today after the 2.0 patch. First I tried it with the track tyres with both setups at Oulton Park. The setups were both garbage with those tyres, the loose setup is the better of the two but still too tight, the car just doesn't want to turn with those sets but I liked the car. With a good set this car could be great to drive now.

The classic tyres though. I really appreciated the inclusion of classic tyres, I just don't think they are right. I don't think they have enough grip when they are up to temp but cold, wow, I imagine that's what it is like to drive a car with no tyres on a steel road.

citroenfan
12-10-2017, 12:08
I am beginning to wonder if the PS4 and PC versions are even the same game!

On PS4 with track tyres the 49 will get loose and there is little understeer providing you stiffen the back end to more realistic levels. With all terrain tyres the car slides in all directions and it is very difficult to get the power down at all in tight turns (Silverstone chicane is almost impossible). With track at the front and all terrain at the back it is undriveable, literally spinning whenever you turn in. Even with track tyres I am struggling to get near the real world times that some are reporting - and I've got about 20 years experience with GPL!

I'm beginning to think there may be big differences between platforms. I know we PS4 users have different default setups but I wonder if it goes beyond that? The devs are saying final testing of the PS4 version was done by a different company. Is this significant?

Sankyo
12-10-2017, 12:17
Now it spins the tires but while spinning in straight line the car gains yaw stability.
Come on guys, tell me this is a joke...
What do you think should happen, and why?

Tango
12-10-2017, 12:30
I like the vintage tire but aren’t they defunct?
If you race against AI then they will choose track tire, online racers will choose track tire and why hotlap with a ‘slower’ tire? Unless you turn the ai right down you wont be competitive or are the vintage tires supposed to be for wet weather?
Keep up the good work folks :)
Tango

David Wright
12-10-2017, 12:32
I'm not sure why people think the historic open wheelers are so hard in rf2. I quite regularly take out the EVE F1 and its a joy to drive. Plenty of lateral grip. I don't find myself nevously waiting for an accident by any stretch. If anything it has more lateral grip than the new L49 vintage tyres in PC2.

I agree, the Eve is very forgiving and the F1 Spark not far behind. I think its the Brabham BT19/20 people may be thinking of. Its a while since I drove it but remember it being something of a handful. The Brabham was perhaps the most forgiving F1 car in period.

Looking forward to trying the "new" PC2 Lotus 49.

John Hargreaves
12-10-2017, 12:40
I tried it last night and I agree with the posts above, feels great on the patch 2.0 vintage tyre. I struggled to keep up with the AI though, I think they are cheeky and use the track tyre. For actual racing, I preferred the track tyre, as you can concentrate on racing, not just keeping the car on the road and avoiding death, but for the pure love of driving on the track alone, I thought those vintage tyres were just how quantendoc describes them on the last page.

rosko
12-10-2017, 13:36
What do you think should happen, and why?

seems there is many itt that just want it to feel like their favorite sim.

Andre.V
12-10-2017, 13:42
Hi guys.

I'm glad to hear you are interested in my favorite car. Honestly I also feel the Lotus is easier to drive than PC1 and to me it's a good news. As Quantendoc said, by changing the tire type may satisfy everyone. I think it's not a good idea to change the physic of the car to make it more real. Just changing the tire type is perfect as everybody should be happy of the handling. If I prefer it grip to max, I choose TRACK tires and if I want it more slippery, I choose another type of tires. That was the same thing in PC1 by choosing different era's tires.

IMO don't change anything in the physic as it's a very nice car and making it too hard to control would kill the interest of driving it. Not everyone is a pro driver with same driving skill but we want enjoy every car. It's important to adjust the car as we want it to be.

Andre.

AVO
12-10-2017, 13:47
What do you think should happen, and why?

Drive one sporty rwd car irl and you’ll understand.

rosko
12-10-2017, 14:03
Drive one sporty rwd car irl and you’ll understand.

I have driven rwd sports cars (one Lotus:))since i had a licence & wouldn't qualify me on being a handling expert for a 60s f1 car.

AVO
12-10-2017, 14:14
‘Cause in the sixties the laws of physics were different... :rolleyes:

Sankyo
12-10-2017, 14:22
‘Cause in the sixties the laws of physics were different... :rolleyes:
No, but the car is very different than any modern sporty RWD car. The wheels, for example, are much bigger and heavier and located on the outside of the car. Not saying that that's an explanation for what you're saying, but we should start from the bottom and that is analyze what you're experiencing, what should happen in your opinion and why, from a physics point of view.

Andre.V
12-10-2017, 14:33
Tell me guys, does your wheels animation is correct on the Lotus since patch 1.2 because on my side they are rotating at pit speed all the time except if I choose the chase view.

Andre.

HeatFire
12-10-2017, 14:38
nope animation is odd for me also.

ChivasRx
12-10-2017, 14:38
Tell me guys, does your wheels animation is correct on the Lotus since patch 1.2 because on my side they are rotating at pit speed all the time except if I choose the chase view.

Andre.

My animation is off as well. Don't remember seeing the Firestone letters on the inside of the tread as I do after the patch.

Civic
12-10-2017, 20:38
I like the vintage tire but aren’t they defunct?
If you race against AI then they will choose track tire, online racers will choose track tire and why hotlap with a ‘slower’ tire? Unless you turn the ai right down you wont be competitive or are the vintage tires supposed to be for wet weather?
Keep up the good work folks :)
Tango

If the tyres are any good and we get proper championship implementation I'd imagine leagues might force tyre selection in those.


I tried it last night and I agree with the posts above, feels great on the patch 2.0 vintage tyre. I struggled to keep up with the AI though, I think they are cheeky and use the track tyre. For actual racing, I preferred the track tyre, as you can concentrate on racing, not just keeping the car on the road and avoiding death, but for the pure love of driving on the track alone, I thought those vintage tyres were just how quantendoc describes them on the last page.

Then what others are saying might be true, perhaps this game is different on different platforms because on vintage tyres on the PS4 at Oulton Park once the tyres are warm it slides around worse than if you put space savers on a 2000kg car with 700hp. With cold tyres it is as if you have no tyres at all and you are driving steel rims on a steel road. With cold tyres you can't even go the speeds you could in the worst handling production road car ever made.

There definitely seems to be something wrong with the implementation on PS4 with vintage tyres.

Lplate
13-10-2017, 09:35
vintage tyres, yeah nice to have. I just tried them with Lotus25. Maybe its more real but for me it is not more fun, for the 25 its back to track tyres.

BazzaLB
13-10-2017, 10:11
The vintage tyres I think could still do with a tweak to lateral grip (ie a slight increase) preferably without impacting longitudinal grip.

rosko
13-10-2017, 10:22
The vintage tyres I think could still do with a tweak to lateral grip (ie a slight increase) preferably without impacting longitudinal grip.

Again based on what reference?

AVO
13-10-2017, 10:23
No, but the car is very different than any modern sporty RWD car. The wheels, for example, are much bigger and heavier and located on the outside of the car. Not saying that that's an explanation for what you're saying, but we should start from the bottom and that is analyze what you're experiencing, what should happen in your opinion and why, from a physics point of view.

This game has been released with huge flaws in the tire properties.
Before the patch, for example, the 66 Mustang could barely spin the tires while cornering in second gear and the rolling resistance was increasing to crazy levels with the side slip angle.
Now some of these oddities have been addressed and most of the tires are much more eager to spin.

Sadly in most cases the lateral grip 'budget' reduction (and by consequence the increase of lateral slip angle) on the spinning tire is still too limited, especially for low lateral forces.
By comparison they tend to slide exponentially more for higher lateral forces leading to an unnatural stransition between two different discrete states with a strange 'springy' feeling.

On the 49, lateral and longitudinal grip seem to be unrealted at low side slip angles so even if the rear tires are spinning the only thing felt in hangling charactheristics is the loss of steering ability due to the load transfer on the rear, while it should become more unstable due to the almost negligible capability of the rear tires to provide side forces.

Looking on the bright side it seems that the devs are trying to improve the handling in this game and I hope they manage to fully profit of what is undublty a good physics engine reducing the inconsistencies (some car tires are still very unrealistic like the one on the x-bow, the 620 Catheram, the old Camaro...).

BazzaLB
13-10-2017, 14:54
Again based on what reference?

Video footage. Whats yours? And for that matter I wonder what Andrew Webber used for reference. Not a lot of data available I guess.

drizzit
14-10-2017, 01:17
While I have no idea how hard this car should be to drive and can't really contribute to the discussion about that I'd just like to say thank you for this thread!
It made me find a car that I probably wouldn't have tried for a long time, and it's a blast to drive!

rosko
14-10-2017, 01:51
Video footage. Whats yours? And for that matter I wonder what Andrew Webber used for reference. Not a lot of data available I guess.

I don't have any. But I'm not advising changes to the tyres. I would imagine sms worked with classic team lotus, it would be interesting to know if this is the case and I'm not sure about the vintage tyre.

Leynad
14-10-2017, 11:51
When watching the old videos the track-tyres seems to be more close to the real grip. No dancing around and pretty fast and stable:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1QsvajE7WY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6aNnZ4q80s

Also keep in mind, that the tarmac was more bumpy with less grip at that times...

quantendoc
20-10-2017, 15:45
Did you notice how slow their pace is? That is not much compared to really pushing in a simulator.
So yeah, sure they are more stable at that speed, I can easily replicate that handling on vintage tires when making sure I don't go faster than them.

But that's where the pace thing I mentioned earlier comes into play. When pushing they are beasts, most of the time you go for a relaxed race pace with no real oversteer, only when really going for an overtake you take the risk of increasing your pace.

Formula 1 in those days wasn't about getting the absolute maximum out of your car all the time, but about managing your risks. When to take a risk, when to slow down so you could make the distance.

So imho as long as we approach sim racing with that "all in, top speed" mentality we'll sure get less grip than they had in reality. For old race series we should get used to relaxing more and only pushing when we can really make it count. There's enough risk in lower speeds anyway, even though the car is much more planted.

JanvH
21-10-2017, 09:16
I still find strange what kind of tyres those cars use because the Lotus 49 only has the "firestone" tyres which by their looks are all vintage/historic/older tyres unless firestone has got a (newer) tyre compound that has significantly better grip than the original ones used in the 60's. I would have thought the tyre itself is already "vintage". So where does this "track" tyre for vintage cars even comes from? If it's remotely realistic than using any other tyre than "track" doesn't make any sense, I mean why would I not want to have the grippiest tyre? I assume most people thought it's just not possible to have this stability with that specific car.

traind
02-12-2017, 04:07
Bump.

The vintage tires are an improvement but the Lotus 49 still understeers and resists power on oversteer like mad. Something is wrong with it... even when I try to adjust it I can't get it to oversteer like it should. And this is odd because so many cars --- particularly the street legal sports cars--- oversteer so readily and enjoyably in pCars2.

JanvH
02-12-2017, 10:39
Bump.

The vintage tires are an improvement but the Lotus 49 still understeers and resists power on oversteer like mad. Something is wrong with it... even when I try to adjust it I can't get it to oversteer like it should. And this is odd because so many cars --- particularly the street legal sports cars--- oversteer so readily and enjoyably in pCars2.

The latest patch is supposed to make some adjustments to the vintage tyres, did you notice any difference? Since I'm on console I haven't got it yet.
Using the vintage tyres With the L49 I have lots of understeer with cold tyres but apart from that I think you can induce on-throttle oversteer pretty well.

Andre.V
02-12-2017, 13:01
With all of you loving the Lotus 49, we should ask all together SMS to make a Ferrari of this era. That would be so nice to have different brands of this vintage F1 like in Grand Prix Legends.

Do you agree ?

Andre.

Pete Gaimari
02-12-2017, 14:17
My experience on this is 18 years of driving GPL almost everyday in the Lotus 49. I also watched Jimmy and Graham at Watkins in 1967. Back in those days you could watch all around the track up close. I watched Jimmy approach and accelerate off a lot of turns. I was a club racer at the time, so I had some understanding of car control.

From what I could see was the Lotus 49 had some understeer, but was easily turned into oversteer with power. The DFV hit real hard when it came onto the cams. That's modeled well in GPL. The oversteer you guys are looking for doesn't come from the suspension settings. It comes from application of power. Jimmy was a master of using the power to steer the car. He was so smooth compared to Graham. He also would trail brake when everybody else seemed to be doing all the braking while going straight. I believe Jimmy was also using the trail braking to turn the car and then transfer smoothly to power to continue to turn the car through and out of the turn. He was in a class nobody could match. I was crushed when he was killed. It had to be a fault of the car. No way could he lose control of a car like that. He was too good.

In PC2 the vintage tires are the only tires to use if you want a Lotus 49 to feel right. It's close to the feel of the GPL Lotus. I'm not sure about the Authentic setting. I don't know if it's leaving some sort of aid still on in the Lotus 49. To be sure I run aids in the OFF setting. The problem is the AI still seem to be using the track tires and will give you a good race.

Sure would be nice if we could get more 67 F1 cars.

Andre.V
02-12-2017, 14:35
Pete.

So nice story. If I understand well, you have seen live those race with these cars ! Lucky you. That would be something to see. GPL Lotus was much more difficult to drive than Pcars 2 but that was a bit too hard fighting to keep the car on the track. I prefer a lot how Pcars 2 is modeled and enjoy every race. Even if I can get the fastest lap on any track, starting back grip and finishing in the first 6th is something totally different. No place for error.

Andre.

Pete Gaimari
02-12-2017, 15:33
Pete.

So nice story. If I understand well, you have seen live those race with these cars ! Lucky you. That would be something to see. GPL Lotus was much more difficult to drive than Pcars 2 but that was a bit too hard fighting to keep the car on the track. I prefer a lot how Pcars 2 is modeled and enjoy every race. Even if I can get the fastest lap on any track, starting back grip and finishing in the first 6th is something totally different. No place for error.

Andre.

Andre,

You should go try the Historical V2 mod for the 67 F1 cars in GPL. Besides changing to a realistic season like changing Bugatti for Rouen, Monacane for Monaco so you have a true chicane, rain in Mosport, and the Spa 67 track to replace the old Spa. It also has new physics for the cars. They corrected the lack of low speed grip. They also have the proper cars for each race. Which means the cars in the early season are heavier and lower HP. As the season progresses the cars get lighter and have more HP. Just like the real season was. There's even more to it. It's a really an accurate 67 F1 season now. I've run the Championship it in full GP 2 hour races about 30 times now. I never get sick of it.

Eric Rowland
02-12-2017, 15:33
Eau Rouge and Malmedy chicane action at old Spa....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzpfC0h4fFg

Pete Gaimari
02-12-2017, 15:43
One disappointment in the PC2 Lotus 25 is the sound. This is how the Climax should sound. Watching Jimmy drive is a treat too.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2yo8pd

Andre.V
02-12-2017, 16:28
Thank you so much Eric for this great video on my favorite track. The track is quite familiar with Pcars 2 track. The cars looks like the Lotus 49C. I imagine the high pitch sound is the Ferrari ?

Andre

Andre.V
02-12-2017, 16:32
Pete.

You are still playing GPL ! Wow, this sim is always very popular because it model this great era of F1. I didn't know they are continuing updating this sim. I have seen SPA historic remake, beautiful track compared to the original and more detailed than Pcars 2. But no complaint about Pcars 2 one as it is very well done.

On which Windows version you are running GPL ? You are really addicted to these cars like me. GPL was very nice but honestly today's graphics are really what I'm looking for.

Andre.

Pete Gaimari
02-12-2017, 18:11
I'm on Win 10 pro and GPL runs fine. Graphics aren't that important to me and the updated GPL doesn't look that bad. A proper physics and an accurate season is more important to me. I can't see me lasting too long in PC2. It's just single races with in-accurate cars, physics, and tracks. I like fighting for points for a whole accurate season. That's what real racing is all about. If this is a sim (?) what are we simulating?

Andre.V
02-12-2017, 18:37
Pete.

Windows 10 can handle GLP, I'm really surprised. I agree 100% with your mention. Pcars 2 is excellent in all point but we can't reproduce a real season. I did twice a season in GP 2 with real drivers and that was addictive. Pcars will always suffer the fact we don't have real teams and all the sponsors. That's the beauty of GPL. But before dreaming of that, we should start by another 67 F1 !

Andre.

BazzaLB
02-12-2017, 21:13
I'm on Win 10 pro and GPL runs fine. Graphics aren't that important to me and the updated GPL doesn't look that bad. A proper physics and an accurate season is more important to me. I can't see me lasting too long in PC2. It's just single races with in-accurate cars, physics, and tracks. I like fighting for points for a whole accurate season. That's what real racing is all about. If this is a sim (?) what are we simulating?

Thought you originally said the L49 in PC2 with Vintage tyres was close to GPL version. Here you seem to be saying its in-accurate? Can you clarify?

Andre.V
02-12-2017, 21:24
Bazzal.

Lot of players where complaining the Lotus 49 has too much grip until we get the Vintage tires in the first patch. Because I played a lot GPL myself, those cars were much harder to keep on track than in Pcars 2 but what Pete mean and he is correct, if you choose the Vintage tires you get less grip like it was in GPL. So the Vintage tires reproduce more how the GPL Lotus perform. You have the choice now. If like me you prefer a good grip, choose the AUTOMATIC BY WEATHER (the best) and if you want the Lotus perform more like the real ones, choose Vintage tires.

Andre.

BazzaLB
02-12-2017, 22:12
Yes, I'm a Vintage tyre kinda guy myself but the reason I was asking is because even with the Vintage tyre, you don't have to be that careful with the throttle. You can still mash away without really feeling like you are driving a car with monstous power sitting at your back. I love cars where you have to very carefully feather the throttle and steer the rear. Whilst the L49 can be fun in PC2, it isn't a frightning beast I would envisage whereby you have to take care with the throttle during cornering, instead you can be very ham fisted with the throttle and get away with it.

Sure, you can get the rear to step out somewhat but you can keep your foot on the throttle pretty heavily and it will still want to snap back to center or just drift.

Edit: sorry, was posting same time as Pete. I certainly thought GPL default was OTT. But I do expect to have to have some respect for throttle control in the L49. Having said that, didn't Jackie Stewart try GPL and state it was far harder then the real thing LOL.

Pete Gaimari
02-12-2017, 22:12
Thought you originally said the L49 in PC2 with Vintage tyres was close to GPL version. Here you seem to be saying its in-accurate? Can you clarify?

I wasn't just talking about the Lotus 49 when I said that. I've driven all the cars and tracks. The historic tracks are not even close.

You also assume GPL is 100% accurate to the real Lotus 49. I drove GPL for all these years because of the challenge and it's a complete 67 F1 season. I didn't drive it because I thought the cars were 100% accurate. Then again I never came close to driving a 67 F1 car. I can only go by what i've observed and base my opinion on that. When I was watching Jimmy at Watkins I had no idea i'd be driving GPL as an old fart.

Wouldn't it be great if Jimmy hadn't been killed and actually tried GPL. Who wouldn't love to see what he'd say about it?

Pete Gaimari
02-12-2017, 22:17
Yes, I'm a Vintage tyre kinda guy myself but the reason I was asking is because even with the Vintage tyre, you don't have to be that careful with the throttle. You can still mash away without really feeling like you are driving a car with monstous power sitting at your back. I love cars where you have to very carefully feather the throttle and steer the rear. Whilst the L49 can be fun in PC2, it isn't a frightning beast I would envisage whereby you have to take care with the throttle during cornering, instead you can be very ham fisted with the throttle and get away with it.

Sure, you can get the rear to step out somewhat but you can keep your foot on the throttle pretty heavily and it will still want to snap back to center or just drift.

You should try GPL. I'd be willing to bet you couldn't do one lap on any of the tracks without spinning off. You'd adjust fast, but it will catch you by surprise. No matter how long you drive it you'll always be fighting for grip.

I had to go back and drive GPL to see the difference. I had gotten used to PC2. Even with vintage tires. I feel it has too much grip.

BazzaLB
02-12-2017, 22:19
You should try GPL. I'd be willing to bet you couldn't do one lap on any of the tracks without spinning off. You'd adjust fast, but it will catch you by surprise. No matter how long you drive it you'll always be fighting for grip.

I had to go back and drive GPL to see the difference. I had gotten used to PC2. Even with vintage tires. I feel it has too much grip.

I was one of the 3 people who bought GPL on release. Kept upgrading my PC to eventually get a solid 30fps back then :) I prefer rf2 historic Open Wheelers to PC2 historics. I have had fun races with PC2 L49 but it could be more convincing in the power oversteer department.

Pete Gaimari
02-12-2017, 22:25
The original GPL was pretty ugly. You won't recognize it if you've been away from it for awhile.

Pete Gaimari
02-12-2017, 22:27
I don't want to give the wrong impression. The Lotus 49 in PC2 is fun to drive and the graphics aren't hard to take either. :D

John Hargreaves
02-12-2017, 22:35
You should try GPL. I'd be willing to bet you couldn't do one lap on any of the tracks without spinning off. You'd adjust fast, but it will catch you by surprise. No matter how long you drive it you'll always be fighting for grip.

I had to go back and drive GPL to see the difference. I had gotten used to PC2. Even with vintage tires. I feel it has too much grip.

I was one of the other few who bought GPL back when it was first released and played it for years. A classic piece of work no doubt about it, but let's be honest if the real cars had so little grip we'd have lost far more drivers than we did. Great simracing game yes, realistic? I have my doubts. It was as good as technology allowed at the time but I think we've moved on now.

BazzaLB
02-12-2017, 22:36
I can't race anything unless it supports VR these days. PC2 VR implementation is sublime. Runs country miles better than rf2 (but fanging the Eve F1 around classic spa with a full grid in VR in rf2 is a heart in mouth andrenaline rush).

Andre.V
02-12-2017, 23:09
I agree with John for this one. Also an early user of GPL at release, I always had difficilty to keep the car on the track. I love the L49 of Pcars because I can fight against the AI and track not the car itself. I want compete with Ai not only fighting to keep the car stable.

One question about grip. Did you try to inflate the tires to decrease the grip ? Maybe it can make the L49 similar to GPL this way ?

Andre.

BazzaLB
02-12-2017, 23:14
I'm not trying to make it like GPL. I expect it to be one hell of a beast to control mid corner if you slam the foot on the throttle. It just seems way too tame in this regard. Thats ok, I can live with it. Its just an observation really. Not fussed. Some cars feel better in some sims than others and I switch between them regularly.

Andre.V
02-12-2017, 23:27
And if you put more tire pressure at the back, when you will hit the throttle, you will have the feeling its a beast.

Andre.

BazzaLB
02-12-2017, 23:44
And if you put more tire pressure at the back, when you will hit the throttle, you will have the feeling its a beast.

Andre.

well, I could drive on an ice track too, but all this is kind of missing the whole point.

Andre.V
03-12-2017, 00:02
I try to help ahahaha.

Andre.

Pete Gaimari
03-12-2017, 00:10
I was one of the other few who bought GPL back when it was first released and played it for years. A classic piece of work no doubt about it, but let's be honest if the real cars had so little grip we'd have lost far more drivers than we did. Great simracing game yes, realistic? I have my doubts. It was as good as technology allowed at the time but I think we've moved on now.

Even the maker said it wasn't accurate. When I say try it now i'm talking about the Historical mod for the 67 cars and season.

Right or wrong I still enjoy driving the original physics in GPL. I'm used to the feel. The majority will like the mod better. Lets face it. The majority like easy.

traind
03-12-2017, 04:04
I'm not trying to make it like GPL. I expect it to be one hell of a beast to control mid corner if you slam the foot on the throttle. It just seems way too tame in this regard. Thats ok, I can live with it. Its just an observation really. Not fussed. Some cars feel better in some sims than others and I switch between them regularly.

I agree that some sims do some cars better than others. It is a shame the Lotus 49 is so tame in pCars 2 (even after the vintage tire adjustment) because it looks fantastic and sounds good too. But there is so little power on oversteer that it feels like a completely different car.

Well, if it never gets fixed it isn't a big deal, there are plenty of cars in pCars 2 that feel more accurate and are plenty of fun too.

John Hargreaves
03-12-2017, 08:24
well, I could drive on an ice track too, but all this is kind of missing the whole point.

Done that, yes it was lots of fun.

maxx69
03-12-2017, 11:24
Never driven the lotus 49 in real life so I couldn't compare the physics to the feel in game .
Having not ever driven the real car I couldn't say whether other sim games are comparable to pcars or not and which one is correct .
From what I've read the real car was a dream to drive and very predictable in the corners

unknwn
03-12-2017, 11:43
From what I remember even in pcars1 the car used to be more oversteery and you could control rotation with throttle (and understeery when off throttle).
In pcars2 with loose setup and vintage tyres the car seems to have lower grip in general and more "dancy" behavior than in pcars1 (which seems more realistic) but to power oversteer even with cold tyres is very hard even if you wanted to. That is weird.

John Hargreaves
03-12-2017, 12:36
I've been having a tinker round with the Lotus 49, and I agree on the vintage tyre, it's quite hard to upset in power on oversteer situations. It's a tricky one, as it is rewarding to drive and feels like a well planted racing car, which is what Chapman was trying to achieve I suppose, but there is that feeling when you abuse it on purpose just to test the limits, that it is somehow too stable. What do you guys think about the all terrain tyre on the L49? It seems the most GPL-ish one of the choices, and has plenty of power on steerability, and is still very controllable. It allows the car to be driven in a more drifty style, and is quite fun and rewarding to chuck around.

Vic Flange
03-12-2017, 13:41
If you choose a different tyre spec, do the AI cars have that same tyre ?
I’ll happily use Vintage tyres but not if the AI is using a more grippy tyre.

Andre.V
03-12-2017, 14:09
In any car to me the AI always use the most grippy tires and we are always suffering speed and grip loosing precious second. It's why once I talked about the warm up lap to let the tires getting in temperature before the race start to give us a chance to be equal to the AI. In Pcars 1 we had a warm up 5 minutes lap where is was possible to warm up the tires prior to the race. But it doesn't work in Pcars 2. Doing two laps during this 5 minutes was just enough to start the race with hot tires.

To feel what I mean, just jump in a race with the Porsche GT3 RS and let see if you are able to follow the AI with cold tires ! Watch out man, you will be out in few seconds after the start. With the Lotus 49 it's about the same. When the race start, we have cold tires and the AI seems having hot tires. Its not fair and we loose very important seconds behind trying to keep the car in control.

Andre.

Pete Gaimari
03-12-2017, 14:16
From what I've read the real car was a dream to drive and very predictable in the corners

That's not true. Jim Clark is quoted as saying the Lotus 49 was hard to drive. Maybe if someone tries the car today with a more modern tire and drove it at 2/3 67 race speeds it might seem easy. With the value the Lotus has now I doubt anybody would push it to race speeds.

rosko
03-12-2017, 14:21
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opzzn9sl1kU

Pete Gaimari
03-12-2017, 14:35
Yeah, we all watch that video when it came out. A pretty embarrassing display of driving for a race driver. Even driving it like grandma you can see the car basically had understeer. It's not setup to oversteer on the suspension. You have to use power to get the tail out. The only time he got the tail out was his pathetic downshifting, because he doesn't know how to H&T to match rpm.

Too bad that couldn't get a real driver to make the video.

rosko
03-12-2017, 14:46
Yeah, we all watch that video when it came out. A pretty embarrassing display of driving for a race driver. Even driving it like grandma you can see the car basically had understeer. It's not setup to oversteer on the suspension. You have to use power to get the tail out. The only time he got the tail out was his pathetic downshifting, because he doesn't know how to H&T to match rpm.

Too bad that couldn't get a real driver to make the video.

He's not a real driver? :D

Pete Gaimari
03-12-2017, 14:49
He sure has no experience in driving vintage race cars. He was lost on downshifting.

MrTulip
03-12-2017, 15:29
I've been having a tinker round with the Lotus 49, and I agree on the vintage tyre, it's quite hard to upset in power on oversteer situations. It's a tricky one, as it is rewarding to drive and feels like a well planted racing car, which is what Chapman was trying to achieve I suppose, but there is that feeling when you abuse it on purpose just to test the limits, that it is somehow too stable. What do you guys think about the all terrain tyre on the L49? It seems the most GPL-ish one of the choices, and has plenty of power on steerability, and is still very controllable. It allows the car to be driven in a more drifty style, and is quite fun and rewarding to chuck around.

Track feels like a modern tyre (compared to other modern tyres in the game). Not suitable for the era IMHO.

Vintage has some good characteristics but at least on my rig it does these sudden spikes around Nords, like I was hit by other car. And I don't mean spikes in FFB, but directly into the tyre or chassis, changing the direction of the car in milliseconds.
Also vintage (as do other new tyre brands; sports and street) has very weird handling with burnouts and when powering out of slow turns; they break the longitudinal but not lateral grip until specific point of rotation speed, and this disparity seems excessive currently.
These two things spoil vintage tyres for me.

All-terrain tyres react to throttle "most GPLlish way" but they lack some precision in the front and seem to have a very high rolling resistance, making them a lot slower on straights too. These are my favorite currently, of course. :)

I hope that the vintage tyre will be researched more by SMS to sort out the oddities.

Pete Gaimari
03-12-2017, 15:40
Track feels like a modern tyre (compared to other modern tyres in the game). Not suitable for the era IMHO.

Vintage has some good characteristics but at least on my rig it does these sudden spikes around Nords, like I was hit by other car. And I don't mean spikes in FFB, but directly into the tyre or chassis, changing the direction of the car in milliseconds.
Also vintage (as do other new tyre brands; sports and street) has very weird handling with burnouts and when powering out of slow turns; they break the longitudinal but not lateral grip until specific point of rotation speed, and this disparity seems excessive currently.
These two things spoil vintage tyres for me.

All-terrain tyres react to throttle "most GPLlish way" but they lack some precision in the front and seem to have a very high rolling resistance, making them a lot slower on straights too. These are my favorite currently, of course. :)

I hope that the vintage tyre will be researched more by SMS to sort out the oddities.

I'm glad you wrote that. I had the same experience about the spikes. I thought I had been hit by a car, but realized I was on the track alone. I tried to figure out what I did wrong, but I didn't feel I had. I was baffled. The answer sure isn't using the track tires. They must be soft slicks. I always wondered what the Lotus 49 would feel like on slicks. Now I know. It really doesn't feel anything like a Lotus 49. More like a modern formula car. I really want to drive the car, but i'm losing interest in it for PC2.

I'm not sure what to drive? I have no interest in tin tops.

Andre.V
03-12-2017, 16:12
Pete

I tried a couple of laps at Bannochbae track with the Vintage tires. Wow, much different grip but fun to drive because I like drifting. My lap time are so low. I did only 2:37 as with the Automatic by weather I range in 2:27. That require much more practice just to gain 4 seconds needed to be 19th of 20 at AI skill 120%. For the pleasure of drifting, I can use these tires but not for racing, too much for me. I agree, it remember me GPL, that was about the same grip.

I wouldn't SMS change the grip of Automatic by weather tires because I really enjoy driving the Lotus with theses tires. We need tires for any player taste and those ones are for me. I'm like fighting against AI and track not against the car itself. I'm not that authentic as you. The Lotus is a so beautiful car in any point, I would be very sad if it become so hard to drive.

Andre.

Pete Gaimari
03-12-2017, 16:14
It's really unfair to race the AI with Vintage tires. They still appear to be on track tires.

What are you lap times at Rouen?

John Hargreaves
03-12-2017, 16:33
I like having the modern tyres available, as it allows the lovely chassis balance to come through, and you imagine it's how Chapman would have wanted it to drive had the tyre technology been available. As said, it's every bit as good as a modern Formula car on those tyres.
As for what else to drive, just work your way through all the old cars, they are all very likeable and have their own characteristics. I like the Lotus 40 and the Watson Roadster is great in VR. All the old cars are good imo, but I do agree there is some magic still to discover in the vintage Lotus 49 tyre.

This thread won't go unnoticed though, and if SMS are able they will put time in to improve things even at this stage. It tends to be a question of prioritising dev time, so they would have been working on big fixes for the patch, but there may still be a chance AJ could get to look at this again in the future.

rosko
03-12-2017, 16:35
Just try it on nords, i find it to be alot of fun on vintage. I did not suffer with spikes just predictable handling with the back end coming loose on braking allowing you to line the car up out of the corner. It doesn't spin on power. no idea if accurate but obviously different to other sims.

Pete Gaimari
03-12-2017, 16:42
One improvement would be to put the AI on vintage tires when we chose them.

Pete Gaimari
03-12-2017, 16:44
We want this. Watching Jimmy has to bring a smile on your face.


https://peterwindsor.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/6712824.jpg

Andre.V
03-12-2017, 19:11
Wow Wow, what a nice picture of the Lotus I'm driving everyday. So beautiful.

Andre.V
03-12-2017, 19:17
Pete

I can't really tell you now my lap time at Rouen because I didn't take note of it but after practicing in all my favorite tracks trying to have the first place on ALL depending the AI skill from 100 to 120%, Rouen is at 105% and consider I'm stopping practicing when I reach 1 sec faster than the leader. So start a practice session at 105% and see what is the fastest lap and that will give you my lap time.

Andre.

Mahjik
03-12-2017, 19:19
One improvement would be to put the AI on vintage tires when we chose them.

This has been brought up (a long time ago with PC1). However, given how cars have many tires (for varying weather), this would likely be difficult to make it really work without giving the punters ammo. You'll have people put slicks on and start in the rain or snow, have the AI go crazy and then make videos all over the internet saying the AI sucks.

unknwn
03-12-2017, 19:27
This has been brought up (a long time ago with PC1). However, given how cars have many tires (for varying weather), this would likely be difficult to make it really work without giving the punters ammo. You'll have people put slicks on and start in the rain or snow, have the AI go crazy and then make videos all over the internet saying the AI sucks.

If it was my choice I wouldn't even include modern tyres as a choice for vintage cars in the first place (or at least it woudn't be default option). Obviously people will run the fastest tyre possible for fastest laps, but running Lotus 49 with modern slick isn't what driving Lotus 49 (or similar) is about. It would make sense to disallow/limit modern tyres from being equipped in time trial or MP race.

Mahjik
03-12-2017, 19:29
If it was my choice I wouldn't even include modern tyres as a choice for vintage cars in the first place

You and I are on the same page....

Andre.V
03-12-2017, 19:32
Here the AI skill level for each of my favorite tracks. Mostly I'm ranging from 1 or 2 sec faster than the leader in all track with these settings.

Azure Circuit 100
Sakitto 105
Red Bull 110
Imola 110
Bathurst 120
Nurburgring GP 100
Le Mans 100
SPA GP 100
SPA Historic 120
Hockenheim Classic 100
Hockenheim GP 100
Daytona 100
Fuji GP 100
Silverstone GP 110
Silverstone Classic 100
Road America 120
Watkins Glen full 120
Zolder 100
Zhuhai 100
Willows Springs 100
Bannochbrae 120
Monza Historic (low part) 110
Monza Historic combined 110
Monza GP 110
Oulton Park 110
Rouen 105
Brands Hatch 100 (can't get better than 3rd place)

Pete Gaimari
03-12-2017, 20:05
You and I are on the same page....

Add me to that page too. It's the best idea yet and should be easy to do. Nothing has to added. Just take away the modern tires. However, make sure this applies to the AI too.

edit...The AI might be the hard part? They don't seem to be setup to run the Vintage tires. That would take a lot of work.

Pete Gaimari
03-12-2017, 20:06
Here the AI skill level for each of my favorite tracks. Mostly I'm ranging from 1 or 2 sec faster than the leader in all track with these settings.

Azure Circuit 100
Sakitto 105
Red Bull 110
Imola 110
Bathurst 120
Nurburgring GP 100
Le Mans 100
SPA GP 100
SPA Historic 120
Hockenheim Classic 100
Hockenheim GP 100
Daytona 100
Fuji GP 100
Silverstone GP 110
Silverstone Classic 100
Road America 120
Watkins Glen full 120
Zolder 100
Zhuhai 100
Willows Springs 100
Bannochbrae 120
Monza Historic (low part) 110
Monza Historic combined 110
Monza GP 110
Oulton Park 110
Rouen 105
Brands Hatch 100 (can't get better than 3rd place)

You have good speed if you're running those settings. I assume that's with modern tires? How about with Vintage tires?

Mahjik
03-12-2017, 20:08
Add me to that page too. It's the best idea yet and should be easy to do. Nothing has to added. Just take away the modern tires. However, make sure this applies to the AI too.

If SMS were going to do that, it would have been done a long time ago (in PC1).

Pete Gaimari
03-12-2017, 20:10
If SMS were going to do that, it would have been done a long time ago (in PC1).

You probably missed my edit. The AI is the sticking point.

Mahjik
03-12-2017, 20:12
You probably missed my edit. The AI is the sticking point.

No I didn't. This isn't something new and it was discussed a lot during WMD1. I shared the same opinion about the tires.

Pete Gaimari
03-12-2017, 20:15
Oh well. It is what it is. I'll always have GPL for my 67 F1 fix.

Andre.V
03-12-2017, 21:39
Pete.

Yes I'm on Automatic by weather tires, the most grippy. No I didn't try on the Vintage. But if you tell me the AI are not on Vintage, I won't try.

Andre.

Pete Gaimari
03-12-2017, 21:57
How you drive is more important. You can always slow down the AI to times they would do with Vintage tires.

Andre.V
03-12-2017, 22:12
Listen Pete. I have a problem with that. In Pcars 1, the AI were very fast and I was in the obligation to slow them down around 85%. Imagine, with the Porsche GT3 SR, I just did a very nice race but I have to slow them down to 25% to be able to fight with them. I'm not the leader for sure.

Now in Pcars 2 we have to possibility to crank them up to 120% what is really fun. That mean I'm now able to race with the AI at 100% what is for me the fun potential of the drivers. To me playing at 100% of my capacity is normal. I would like all cars in any class in Pcars would be balanced to match the real lap time at 100% and this way we would be able to try fighting with them. But actually it's not the case. The AI are way too fast in some categories and like the Porsche, we have to lower them so much.

Lowering the Lotus 49 AI skill is not something I like to do. I'm glad I can compete with them at 100% now or even more is I'm able. You know, I feel very poor driver when I'm force to lower the AI skill to 25% as my son can make it much higher !

Andre.

Pete Gaimari
03-12-2017, 22:18
Yes, but you're racing with them with an unrealistic Lotus 49. Wouldn't you rather have an accurate Lotus and slow down the AI as if they had the same tires. What you set the percentage for the AI doesn't mean squat. Who said those are the real times and who says the tracks are accurate you're racing on?

Getting the car you drive accurate should be the first priority. Otherwise, it's just arcade.

Mahjik
03-12-2017, 22:19
Lowering the Lotus 49 AI skill is not something I like to do. I'm glad I can compete with them at 100% now or even more is I'm able. You know, I feel very poor driver when I'm force to lower the AI skill to 25% as my son can make it much higher !


He's suggesting that you can use the Vintage tires which will make you as the player slower. Since the AI will not use Vintage tires with you, you slow the AI down manually by lowering their ability. This allows you using the slower tire to still have AI to race with...

rosko
03-12-2017, 22:34
I hope they reconsider about the tyres & dump the modern ones. who drives these cars with modern tyres irl. what about the other vintage cars they have the same problem?

Andre.V
03-12-2017, 23:08
Well, in fact who care if I use 100% or 25%, only me and the AI. It's not something we are sharing. Maybe I would have to change my mind, use the Vintage and lower the AI to match my skill. I several players have stated recently, most of them are playing between 70 an 90%. So I can do the same.

In fact you are right Pete. If every one of us use the same Vintage tires, we can compare our lap time all together and that will be much more representative. That would be nice to try that. We post a picture of our best time on any track and other can try to do better with the same tires.

Andre.

Andre.V
03-12-2017, 23:12
In fact, that would be good idea to start a Facebook page dedicated to our Lotus 49 lap times where every one can post their lap times.

I would be willing to create this page. I already have a Pcars page on FB. https://www.facebook.com/projectcarstdu2/ Okay I'm french but the page can be in english too.

Andre.

Andre.V
03-12-2017, 23:15
You have my vote. If the AI would have the same Vintage tires as us, I vote for SMS to remove the modern tires.

Andre.

Andre.V
03-12-2017, 23:23
Its okay talking about the Vintage tires, but what tell us SMS is seeing our request ? There is so many new posts everyday, I doubt SMS take time to read everything posted.

Andre.

Andre.V
04-12-2017, 03:41
Ok guys.

I started using the Vintage tires and frankly, I love it. So I'm redoing all 1st position lap time on every track mentioned above to see what is the AI skill to adopt. As for now I have two track done. The lap time below are about the best I can do. I'm always on the edge, I can't really go faster than that.

Azure circuit 1:47:580 80%
Bannochbrae 2:35:240 100%

I really like the screeching tires on a start, I like sliding, I like hearing my tires when I brake. Frankly after doing 2700 km on the very hard to drive Porsche, event with Vintage tires the Lotus is easy to master. I learned a lot in braking technique with the Porsche what help a lot for the Lotus.

Andre.

Trooper117
04-12-2017, 10:40
You have my vote. If the AI would have the same Vintage tires as us, I vote for SMS to remove the modern tires.

Andre.

Same here!

Andre.V
04-12-2017, 15:17
Pete

I just did lot of practice at Rouen les Essarts track so I reproduced twice the same range of lap time. I'm 1.7 sec faster than the leader. But this lap time is exceptional, usually I'm ranging in the 2:06.

Rouen les Essarts 2:05:683 90%
Bathurst 2:22:258 65%

Andre

Andre.V
04-12-2017, 15:20
Is there a problem with the AI, either with the Lotus or Porsche, after few laps, the are getting disqualified one after the other until there is no more AI on the track ! It take about 40 minutes. Why they are disqualified ? Do you have this issue too ?

Andre

iggy
04-12-2017, 16:45
Before getting deep into PC2, I assumed most all quality race cars would drive like the Lotus 49 does in PC2 with 'track' tires... Now, if I could just get some magical 'track' tires for the Zakspeed Capri Turbo.

But seriously... is that Lotus 49 really got stability control turn on, or what?

Pete Gaimari
04-12-2017, 19:00
Pete

I just did lot of practice at Rouen les Essarts track so I reproduced twice the same range of lap time. I'm 1.7 sec faster than the leader. But this lap time is exceptional, usually I'm ranging in the 2:06.

Rouen les Essarts 2:05:683 90%
Bathurst 2:22:296 65%

Andre

Good time at Rouen for the vintage tires. Do you remember any of your times in GPL?

Andre.V
04-12-2017, 20:05
Pete

For sure NO I don't remember. I'm eager to know some of your time to compare and to see in which range of user am I. I'm sure my son would lower my time by 2 or 3 sec if he would try. I'm not very fast, at 57 my reflex are not the same of my son's ones. But want to know your time on the same track.

Fun to compare our time, but we need to be at the same setting. The only aid I'm using is braking at HIGH. I'm not sure it really work for the Lotus as the wheels seems locking anyway. I'm willing to turn it OFF.

Andre

Pete Gaimari
04-12-2017, 21:11
Reverse your numbers and you have my age.

Yes, the braking is helping. Use authentic or just use off like I do. I'm not fast anymore. I'm getting a bit old. My GPL rank was -40, but that was awhile ago when I was LF braking. I RF brake now and H&T the downshifts and use a shifter. Slowed me down some. I know the clutch doesn't work right in PC2, but i still go through all the pedal work as if it's working right. Otherwise, i'd be messed up when I go back to GPL.

rosko
04-12-2017, 21:46
Before getting deep into PC2, I assumed most all quality race cars would drive like the Lotus 49 does in PC2 with 'track' tires... Now, if I could just get some magical 'track' tires for the Zakspeed Capri Turbo.

But seriously... is that Lotus 49 really got stability control turn on, or what?


Potentially seeing there is a bug that carries over the settings from previous car still in this game. Even with real setting you get this bug.

Andre.V
04-12-2017, 23:31
Pete

I was gauging your age and I wasn't that far. I said my wife you should be in the 70's because you have seen Jim Clark racing for real. I was correct.

Okay, I'll try using authentic braking just to see the difference. But honestly I don't really need it. I turned it ON two days ago while practicing my braking with the Porsche.

I use automatic clutch and even if it's not necessary to use it, I do the same as you. I use all pedals because I always drove standard cars.

Andre

Pete Gaimari
05-12-2017, 00:19
I never tried the aids, so I don't know how much they help. The braking adds ABS braking. It has to help some. Maybe not noticeable as much on cars with slicks and wings. I would think it would help you brake harder on the Lotus with vintage tires. I'm just guessing though. Let me know what you feel when you shut it off.

Yeah, i'm an old fart. I turn 75 in a couple of weeks, so i'm a young 74 right now. :) I don't act my age though. I still go bear and elk hunting with an old flintlock muzzleloader alone in my Colorado Rockies. It keeps me young.

Andre.V
05-12-2017, 00:30
Keep racing, that keep your mind and reflex alert.

Okay, I'll check about the braking.

Andre.

LUN4T1C
05-12-2017, 07:49
I do find the Lotus 49 easy to oversteer on the throttle (with realistic so no driver aids). But also really easy to counter and catch slides.

Andre.V
05-12-2017, 15:24
Ok, I did just a little better on Bathurst and about the same on Azure Circuit with braking at Authentic. The difference compared to braking ON at High, you have to pump a little more the brakes but we get comfortable with time and it's really fun. I always like pumping the brake, I feel I have the fun control. So to me I'll continue using the Authentic setting to do my lap time. I change the brake balancing from 60/40 to 55/45 and brake pressure from 85% to 100% which help too.

I found here lot of new fans of the Lotus and nobody post their lap time ? Come on guys, lets have fun competing to each other.

Andre.

Pete Gaimari
05-12-2017, 17:15
I never pump the brakes. That upsets the car. Just steady pressure that I gradually use less pressure as I approach the apex. Trail braking.

Not sure what you use for pedals? It's easier if you have a load cell.

Andre.V
05-12-2017, 19:03
Two new lapt time.

Hochenheim classic 2:18:379 75%
Hockenheim GP 1:51:000 75%

Believe me, this 1:51 was very hard to get. I tried for more than 1 hour just to beat the leader by 0:115 !!! But I knew I was faster than any car because I was catching them on every lap. But just the get this first place, that was not easy.

Andre.

Andre.V
05-12-2017, 19:04
Pete.

I use lot trail braking too. But sometime on late braking, pumping react more for me. I don't understand what you mean about the pedals ? I have a Logitech G25. By the way, yesterday you ask me if I would remember my lap time in GPL for Rouen track. I did 2:05 in Pcars 2 but I checked on youtube for the best hot lap at Rouen in GPL and the guy can make it for 1:52 !!! Never I'll be able to do that. It's very fast. Even with modern tires, I can achieve a such lap time. It took me 1 hour just to get 0:115 on me best lap at Hochenheim. When I reach my best lap, it's impossible for me to do better. Every lap time are negative and with a little bit of chance its positive.

Andre.

Pete Gaimari
05-12-2017, 19:48
Yes, the World Record at Rouen is 1.52 in the Eagle by an extremely fast driver. He holds the fastest rank rank right now.

You'll never be able to match GPL times, because the Lotus 49 in PC2 is too slow. They got it wrong. I do around 170mph at historical Spa in PC2. In GPL i'm a bit over 200mph. I've messed with gearing in PC2 and it either doesn't have the HP to pull a taller gear, or they put too much drag on the car. It seems to accelerate ok, so I suspect the drag is too high. The real Lotus 49 would do around 190 on level ground. I can only get 170 at Spa and that's downhill.

So, any track with longer straights will be slow in PC2. The more straights the slower it will be compared to GPL and real life.

Here's the world records in GPL.

http://gplrank.schuerkamp.de/php-pub/user.php?showWR


btw..My time at Rouen for GPL is 1.56. PC2 isn't even close to that. I'm losing interest in driving the Lotus in PC2. Too much wrong with it.

Andre.V
05-12-2017, 20:31
Strange. I"m able to get 180 mph with the Lotus and 185 downhill at SPA.

It's sure I'm not like you Pete. I watched a good amount of GPL's videos and I can't get back to this sim because of the graphics. You prefer accurate physics over graphics and me it's the opposite. I don't really care if the Lotus is not as real but the beauty of the graphics is much more important to me.

Can't see the video, must be login.

Andre.

Pete Gaimari
06-12-2017, 14:26
Most videos of GPL look like crap to me too. They either have a problem with Youtube or they don't have all the latest updates.

It's not just physics that GPL has. It's the full season of 1967. All the drivers, cars, and tracks. All the mods are like that. They are the complete season. 55, 65, 66, 67, 69 F1. 67 F2. 67 and 71 CanAm. All complete seasons with correct drivers,liveries, and tracks.

GPL came with the 11 tracks of the 67 season. We now have over 500 tracks. Everything.....all mods and track and a long list of other updates are all free.

To race a sim that only has graphics is missing out on a lot.



The link I posted is not a video. It's a web site called GPL Rank. That where everybody's times are stored along with the world records which it what I wanted to show you. 8600 racers have entered their times.

Andre.V
06-12-2017, 16:33
Well from this point of view, for sure I understand your addiction to GPL. It's something this game is still well alive after that much years and with today's graphic technology.

Okay, thanks about the link. I see now.

Andre.

Vic Flange
20-12-2017, 20:06
Pete

I just did lot of practice at Rouen les Essarts track so I reproduced twice the same range of lap time. I'm 1.7 sec faster than the leader. But this lap time is exceptional, usually I'm ranging in the 2:06.

Rouen les Essarts 2:05:683 90%
Bathurst 2:22:258 65%

Andre

Just tried the Vintage tyres on Time Trial at Rouen. Managed a 2:05:499. Best with track tyres is 2:02:135.

Vic Flange
20-12-2017, 21:55
A 1:49:880 on Hockenheim GP. These vintage tyres are great fun.

haydnbuzz
27-12-2017, 17:34
I agree with some previous comments, for me the All Terrain tyre is the most "GPLish" though as mentioned does have some oddities and I'd prefer slightly more bite from the fronts. I've spent an afternoon setting this car up to tastes and it's by far my favourite car. Unfortunately Pcars 2 suffers the exact opposite problem of PCars 1 with AI speed. In PCars 1 I regularly raced against the 72D because the AI for the 49 were embarrassingly slow. Now with PCars 2 and the 49 on the track tyre it's just not possible to get a good race. On my preferred tyre the All Terrain even with AI in the 20's they have amazing drive from corners yet very poor corner speed so there's just no opportunity for good racing with big closing speed in all the wrong places. The Lotus 49 goes about its business in a very unique way and I've found nothing comparable that I can put it against in PCars 2. I'll add my vote to remove the modern rubber and have AI running the All Terrain tyre. With much closer characteristics between this and the Vintage I'd imagine everyone could adjust for their preferred tyre.

Azure Flare
27-12-2017, 20:57
I don't understand why people are comparing a game from 1997 with flawed physics and tire model, with cars that are hard for the sake of being hard (a practice iRacing still uses today, as evidenced in their Lotus 49) to a completely modern game.

beetes_juice
27-12-2017, 21:04
Isn't there a famous Jackie Stewart quote/video with GPL commentary? "If we drove these in RL we all would be dead".