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View Full Version : Traction control and the effect of water on engine revs



major sunscreen
09-10-2017, 16:33
Can anyone shed some light because this is slowly driving me mad..

So far I've done formula rookie and the ginetta juniors championship. I've tried turning traction control to both ends of the dial and at neither and can I induce wheel spin in first or second gear, even off the line at the start of races. It's like launch control all the time! With automatic clutch on and off!

Also when it's wet it's like the engine is down on power through all gears, with traction control at both ends of the dial tested and automatic clutch on and off.

Is this just me or has anyone else noticed this?

Ensi Ferrum
09-10-2017, 17:31
Noticed this too.
One of the reasons I quit playing PC2 at the moment, waiting for a patch.

major sunscreen
09-10-2017, 17:33
Ok. Thanks for the info. Surprised others haven't noticed it.

Nulreith
09-10-2017, 17:33
Yep. I have noticed the exactly same lack of power when rain occurs. It is really strange and somewhat frustrating.

AVO
09-10-2017, 17:42
Frankly speaking I notice the same behaviour on almost all the cars (no matter the surface).
It's a bit mitigated in VERY powerful vehicles, but in general the grip in acceleration is insane and even when mild-high wheel spin occurs the impact on lateral grip is limited.

It's really sad to have such a game breaking issue, 'cause otherwise PC2 could be a really impressive sim.

major sunscreen
09-10-2017, 18:07
Had this been fed back to the Devs? Is it a bug or a 'design feature'?

AbeWoz
09-10-2017, 18:09
IIRC, Ginetta Junior and FR do not have traction control, so the setting in the 'ECU' tab has no effect. I could be wrong tho as I have no driven those cars since the game was released.

major sunscreen
09-10-2017, 18:17
IIRC, Ginetta Junior and FR do not have traction control, so the setting in the 'ECU' tab has no effect. I could be wrong tho as I have no driven those cars since the game was released.

Not doubting you for one second but I'm incredulous (again)..

The available setup options vary between those cars but even so some have no effect because they're not fitted? 2 points spring to mind;
1) In that case they have outrageous levels of grip because at race start with automatic clutch on and off I redline the engine and just dump the clutch and it's off, making up half the field by turn 1 generally at 81% difficulty with no wheel spin even in first. Even my 2 ton piece of garbage roadcar wheel spins of I try that..
2) kind of an oversight to have options that have no effect..

Either way are the devs aware that the cars either have launch control or they're FUBAR?

Seelenkrank
09-10-2017, 19:17
the Ginetta Junior has 100hp, if you cant get this on the street in the wet what else?
on the silverstone race you can reach the fifth gear on dry conditions and when its wet you cant reach the end of the fourth gear... *really?*

major sunscreen
09-10-2017, 20:35
So is this a bug? If so are the devs aware?

3800racingfool
09-10-2017, 21:02
As far as TC is concerned: It works on a linear scale of percentages as it relates to wheel spin and how much wheel spin has to occur before it kicks in.. So setting it to 0.00 would be the same as no TC or off and setting it to 1.00 is the same as full-on, kill the engine if the tire so much as thinks about breaking loose mode. IIRC (and I'm not at home right now so I can't check), neither the G40 Junior nor the FR have TC available when using authentic settings, so if you're using those settings then that's why adjusting them has no effect (and also why you can adjust them even though the don't do anything because you can still force TC on the car if you want).

As far as launching/wheel spin in concerned: Neither car is powerful at all and neither produce a large amount of torque. Even clutch-dumping the G40 on cold tires will only induce minimal wheel spin before the tires (which, being racing tires have much more grip than regular car tires) grip up and push you along. Same deal with the FR.

As for being down on HP in the wet, it will depend on how much "wet" we're talking about (light rain/damp track? full-on thunderstorm?) but there is going to be a slight loss of grip due to the road being wet but HP should stay roughly the same. In more powerful cars this grip effect is negligible but in lower powered cars which already struggle for torque as it is, this effect can be magnified. If you want to be sure that you're not losing power, you can keep an eye on it in the metrics/telemetry screen (lower right-hand corner) and see how it reacts in wet vs dry conditions.

major sunscreen
09-10-2017, 21:29
Thank you for the very detailed response. It's appreciated and certainly goes some way to explaining what's going on. Regarding the ability to just dump the clutch and storm past the pack on race starts at 81% difficulty- is that an expected behaviour? If so it kind of makes fighting for a high grid position in qualifying a waste of time.. hopefully what I'm describing makes sense and be assured there is no element of exaggeration.

OzzyNeil
09-10-2017, 21:30
Yep me too in the wet at donning ton yesterday, started to rain and then down the back straight car won't redline, you can feel the overall sluggishness, feels like the brakes are on.
They should rename this game to project radiator, it has that many bugs in it;)

major sunscreen
09-10-2017, 21:33
^
Yes it's unbelievably pronounced and feels very un-natural. 20 years driving in the UK I believe I know what driving in the wet feels like, and it's not this!
All the bugs so far I've been able to ignore/work around. This is a fundamental flaw and being able to launch past the entire grid makes it just depressing and pointless to go through qualifying. When the weather changes it's not a period of excitement, it's "oh it's started raining. Either me or the AI are going to turn into driving Gods and I feel like the handbrake is on.. not ideal SMS.

3800racingfool
10-10-2017, 00:32
The grid issue is more than likely tied to the AI. In some vehicles I've found I can indeed launch right past half of the field while in others they're practically running me off the road.

I just did a quick test in the G40 at Road America (long straights). I used the same time/date and variable weather going from dry to light rain to rain to thunderstorm. After coming cleanly off the final corner and accelerating up the hill I measured my speed as I passed the end of the pit wall. I did this several times in each condition to eliminate any inconsistencies (tire temp/wear, etc). Here are the top speeds for each condition:

Dry: 105mph
Light Rain: 102mph
Rain: 99mph
Thunderstorm: 93mph

So yes, the speeds are, in fact, slower however this can be chalked up to traction and not power. Not one of the tests run in the wet had a lower HP figure than in dry. In fact, in the rain/thunderstorm condition I had a (very) slightly higher peak HP mark than in the dry (which actually does reflect real-world experience so that's a nice touch). All tests were run on the default setup using the same tires (all weather). It basically all just depends on how much standing water there is on the track which will dictate how much grip there actually is. The next thing I'd like to test, but don't currently have the time to, is how the dry line affects this as it should allow for higher grip on a bare track.

Also, for clutch dumping launches, I was quite easily able to leave black marks and smoke on both cold and warmer tires. Didn't try with the FR but it's not hard at all with the G40.

senn
10-10-2017, 03:48
IIRC AI difficulty is broken in the wet, so there's that too.

Marlborofranz
10-10-2017, 06:07
In terms of top speed on the straight:
1. you have more rolling resistance because of the wet track. The tire has to push away the water and this feels like when you use a skateboard and try to roll on carpet. The tires "sink" into the carpet because it's soft and when you want to drive forward, then you have to push the uncompressed fibres away which are ahead of the wheel.
2. Of course if it's rainy, then you also have less grip while turning, means you have less cornering speed. If you go flat out at the beginning of the straight starting at 60 mph or 55 mph also makes a difference of what speed you might reach at the end of the straight...

In my eyes the cars/tires behave legit in rain.

BazzaLB
10-10-2017, 12:58
I ran the L49 in the wet and it seemed surprisingly gutless. If its an intended effect of extra rolling resistance due to water on the track then its way over done on some cars.

Marlborofranz
11-10-2017, 06:20
Again not sure if PCars 2 is simulating this intentionally...

The faster you go, the higher is the additional rolling resistance caused by the wet surface. If you drive 100 km/h it's not problem, but if you drive 200 km/h and you already notice the effect at least twice as much because you have to push away twice as much water. And of course the larger the tire size, the more water you have to displace.

Water gets harder the faster you try to push it. E.g. jump from one meter into the water and you will have no problems diving in because you're relatively slow. Jump from 50 meters and you might as well just jump on concrete because of the speed you'll have while hitting the water.

I also once reat an article about wet racing tires, though I am no expert: The rain tires are way softer than other tires, not just because of the grip but also because the tire treads need to be compressed as the car rolls over it. Due to the compression they are "closing" the grooves, scraping the water off the track and trapping inside the grooves. So the water is "removed" from track underneath the tire. At the same time the tire treads expand due to the compression, so the contact patch increases in size, providing more grip.

As the tire keeps spinning and the soaked area of the tire lifts off the track, the treads decompress, thus the grooves open and the water is released again. This is why rain tires need to be so soft compared to slicks, and this again is the reason why rain tires should overheat when not being cooled by a wet track.

Anyway... this means that some wet tires have way more rolling resistance because they are designed to work as described above. Means they are sacrificing rolling resistance for better grip on rain. And then still you have to add the increased rolling resistance that increases the faster you drive. Means the faster your car can drive, the more of an impact you'll feel with wet tires on track. So for now I think that the noticable lower top speed on wet tires in PCars 2 is legit.

EDIT: There are also even more factors that might play a role in this. E. g. tires cooling down on the wet track will have less inside preassure, thus be a bit deflated. They are less stiff, tend to be felt more and so again you also have more rolling resistance. Anyway, I never drove a real race car, nor I went flat out on the highway. Maybe one of the devs can say if this is intended or not.

Bealdor
11-10-2017, 06:46
As far as TC is concerned: It works on a linear scale of percentages as it relates to wheel spin and how much wheel spin has to occur before it kicks in.. So setting it to 0.00 would be the same as no TC or off and setting it to 1.00 is the same as full-on

I'm probably a little late here but it's exactly the other way around.
A TC setting of 0.00 means zero wheel slip is allowed, which means TC is ON essentially all the time. Setting TC to 1.00 means TC OFF.

honespc
11-10-2017, 07:43
TC on race cars that actually use this in real life (real assists on) works perfectly fine.

However, on road cars I'm noticing a weird TC behaviour regardless I'm using a very strong setting such as a 0.01-0.35 (recommended for rain conditions only), or a more soft effect ranging from the 0.50 to 0.75 mark.

Happens on dry conditions too, not just on wet which was the main topic point. Take on the Enzo Ferrari on dry tarmac. Apply the strongest TC setting that comes from default which is 0.01. When you try to spin on a corner you perfectly notice the TC working as It should (you floor the throttle and there's no spin at all). After this, go try a way softer TC treatment on the wheels like a 0.70 setting, and It happens borderline the same on dry too, not just on the wet. No wheel spin at all.

Also, a weird feeling of some sort of auto-correct thingy comes combined with the no wheel spin effect described previously. Road Cars only, specially among the powerful ones like the Enzo.

Happens to all road cars with TC on real assists. Stability control of course off. TC on race cars that actually use it in real life works as intended, apparently.

Bealdor
11-10-2017, 08:08
This sounds more like a tire or setup saving issue, not a TC issue.


Happens on dry conditions too, not just on wet which was the main topic point. Take on the Enzo Ferrari on dry tarmac. Apply the strongest TC setting that comes from default which is 0.01. When you try to spin on a corner you perfectly notice the TC working as It should (you floor the throttle and there's no spin at all). After this, go try a way softer TC treatment on the wheels like a 0.70 setting, and It happens borderline the same on dry too, not just on the wet. No wheel spin at all.

Also, a weird feeling of some sort of auto-correct thingy comes combined with the no wheel spin effect described previously. Road Cars only, specially among the powerful ones like the Enzo.

Happens to all road cars with TC on real assists. Stability control of course off. TC on race cars that actually use it in real life works as intended, apparently.

Do you see the TC symbol light up in the HUD when you experience this with a high TC setting?


A little bit OT but your TC recommendations look pretty strange.
For wet conditions something like 0.03 - <0.10 should be used. 0.01 is far too restrictive in all situations.
In dry conditions I'd say 0.10 - 0.20 should be used. Anything above 0.20 or 0.25 essentially turns TC off because wheel speed differences bigger than 25% should mean that you'Re already spinning out.

honespc
11-10-2017, 11:31
Do you see the TC symbol light up in the HUD when you experience this with a high TC setting?yeah. But remember I'm talking about this "issue" being in road cars only, specially Road A and B, not in GT cars where I feel TC works just as intended, imo. Add the auto-correction thingy as well regardless the TC setting, but only if TC is enabled. When disabled there is nothing like that anymore and it feels as it should.



A little bit OT but your TC recommendations look pretty strange.
For wet conditions something like 0.03 - <0.10 should be used. 0.01 is far too restrictive in all situations.
In dry conditions I'd say 0.10 - 0.20 should be used. Anything above 0.20 or 0.25 essentially turns TC off because wheel speed differences bigger than 25% should mean that you'Re already spinning out.Well it's an assumption of mine given the TC setup range at our disposal. The reasoning is simple, and if flawed then please somebody explain this setting more in depth. Range goes from the strongest TC of 0.01 up to the weakest 0.99 mark. This said, then I assume that from 0.01 up to..., let's say 0.30 should be the optimal setting on wet conditions, heavy rain and storms mostly rather than just light rain, and on dry tarmac specially when racing on very hot conditions conditions a setting of 0.50 up to more or less 0.75 should be the optimal mark.

This is the way I use TC on for instance GT3 cars, and It feels like the proper TC settings to me, on the wet and dry both. Am I misunderstanding something?, numbers don't mean the same depending on the class, even when the TC range is the same 0.01-0.99 for every other class?