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Brace21
20-10-2017, 20:06
Im a guy who just likes to race. I have a complete cockpit setup.
I have no interest at all in tuning and im betting im not the only one.
Is there any chance you can create in game mechanics that you can hire like in Dirt 4?
Or I would even pay for add on mechanics from PG2.
Is there any kind of plan at all for this? It would be much more like real world racing imo.
Thanks

Jussi Karjalainen
20-10-2017, 21:03
The race engineer is already there to help you adjust the setup. =)

Brace21
20-10-2017, 23:16
The race engineer is already there to help you adjust the setup. =)

Ya but its limited, 2 of the big quick fix factors of less fuel and tire psi have to manually entered for every track, weather condition an car, I want a mech to do it for me.

I mean seriously other than small track racing when have you ever seen a driver working on his car setup? His/ her input sure but pulling wrenches, I think not.

Rodgerzzz
21-10-2017, 13:49
Ya but its limited, 2 of the big quick fix factors of less fuel and tire psi have to manually entered for every track, weather condition an car, I want a mech to do it for me.

I mean seriously other than small track racing when have you ever seen a driver working on his car setup? His/ her input sure but pulling wrenches, I think not.

Well neither are you, youre just fiddling around with some numbers on a setup screen. Sounds like you want all the reward of getting a car well set up for a race without putting in any of the effort to get there...

RedSquareImages
21-10-2017, 20:18
Yup - he does and so do I. I have just spend thousands on building a rig to go race online in a new game and to compete online. I don't want to spend years trying to figure out rebound compression diff settings and PSI. I work in motorsport and quite frankly we have people who do that and people who pedal.

I would like to pedal please.

Is there somewhere I can obtain setups?

RedSquareImages
21-10-2017, 20:19
The race engineer is already there to help you adjust the setup. =)

It's not up to the job.

bloozmahn
21-10-2017, 22:01
Yup - he does and so do I. I have just spend thousands on building a rig to go race online in a new game and to compete online. I don't want to spend years trying to figure out rebound compression diff settings and PSI. I work in motorsport and quite frankly we have people who do that and people who pedal.

I would like to pedal please.

Is there somewhere I can obtain setups?

go to the time trial area, you can download setups for whatever car you like there. caution: top tier setups aren't terribly stable, i'd recommend something further down the order or at least be prepared to alter your driving style a bit.

the stable setups provided are actually not too bad, learning the basics of car setup isn't all that complicated and frankly if you're unwilling to learn rudiments you're not going to be happy with some random dude making setups for you. any racing team requires constant feedback from the driver, followed by adjustment and testing, and so on and so forth. there are no quick fixes other than hoping to find a good tuner that happens to like a car to behave exactly as you do.

RedSquareImages
21-10-2017, 22:23
This doesn't seem to work for me. It does not let me download the setup? I am clicking on the "cog" in the hope it will allow me to save it.

Thanks for the suggestion.

RedSquareImages
21-10-2017, 22:26
if you're unwilling to learn rudiments you're not going to be happy with some random dude making setups for you. any racing team requires constant feedback from the driver, followed by adjustment and testing, and so on and so forth. there are no quick fixes other than hoping to find a good tuner that happens to like a car to behave exactly as you do.

I totally agree with your statement. And I know a little in real world and agree with your statement on tuning. I'm just looking to try something better than the games default treacle setups.

Thanks again!

bloozmahn
21-10-2017, 23:53
i'm able to download them without any issue, but i think you have to wait until you launch the time trial itself as the setups aren't available until the game loads the actual session.

if memory serves, that's what i found out.

many of these setups are absolutely horrible for actual racing though, just good for getting one super low laptime and that's it. most have like 2 liters of fuel etc..

Brace21
22-10-2017, 01:53
Well neither are you, youre just fiddling around with some numbers on a setup screen. Sounds like you want all the reward of getting a car well set up for a race without putting in any of the effort to get there...

You are 100% correct. Sorry if that pisses you off or you figure that makes me a dipstick.
I just like to race, plain an simple. To me that in itself can be extremely hard and rewarding. I dont like tuning, dont think cheap shots are in order.
At the age of 56 I have spent some time real life racing because that is what I enjoy. Never enjoyed real life wrenching either.
Each to his own brother, I was just asking a question.

DECATUR PLAYA
22-10-2017, 04:06
You are 100% correct. Sorry if that pisses you off or you figure that makes me a dipstick.
I just like to race, plain an simple. To me that in itself can be extremely hard and rewarding. I dont like tuning, dont think cheap shots are in order.
At the age of 56 I have spent some time real life racing because that is what I enjoy. Never enjoyed real life wrenching either.
Each to his own brother, I was just asking a question.

Default setup races may be the way to go for you. That's probably the only way. Setups are difficult and even though I know how to tune there was a time that I didn't and so i understand the frustration. Restrict setups to default and problem solved.

Robhd
22-10-2017, 08:21
I think the original poster has a really valid point here that the devs should give a bit of thought to if they haven't already.

Gaming is a big market, and this is potentially an awesome game with appeal to many folk. However, out there, you know in the real world most people have commitments, bills to pay, kids to raise, beer to drink.. So don't have or are unwilling to set aside huge amounts of time to give learning tuning etc.. They want to race and have fun, but at least hold their own on track... If they can.

A mechanic is a neat idea and i get that he won't give a perfect set up for your driving style etc, but it would imo be a step forward for the game and open a door to a larger chunk of the market..

After all increased sales = more cash to spend developing PC3!

cpcdem
22-10-2017, 09:21
Let me also offer my view as a guy that has always hated setups, and only very lately started dealing with them and slowly started to liking them. Exactly for all the reasons you guys mentioned, I was always hoping that custom setups would be banned from online races, timetrials and community events, so that it will be only the driving that matters. But then again, adjusting cars to be more suitable to driver/track is one of the most integral things in real life racing, so I realize that leaving that out of a racing sim would be bizarre at least..

Anyway, I bite he bullet, read a lot about setups, understood the basics in theory and tried to put them in practice. At first I failed miserably, but as time went by, I found myself being able to recognize problems with the car and fixing them or improving them with tuning. First by adjusting brake bias and pressure, downforce, then differential, a little bit of springs or anti roll bars. I am not touching yet at all the more advanced stuff like dampers, but changing those that I am comfortable with do make a sensible difference and it feels really nice when you can adjust the car to your liking and seeing that reflected in lap times. I still prefer driving to tuning, but I've now started enjoying tuning as well.

Now I think the big problem for people that may want to start with tuning, is that there are so many options, that it is very difficult to know what to do, where to start from, what does give a good benefit and what is a very tiny detail tuning option that can be completely ignored. Just using other people's setups I don't think it's really an option either, because people that are good in doing setups make them in a way that they are suitable to themselves, and as I have found in practice, if your driving style is different than theirs, then their setup is not of much use to you. The in game engineer is a very good idea, but it needs to become more sophisticated, to deal with more options, take more kind of driver feedback into consideration and also be more flexible, with different suggestions for different cars (right now it suggests changes that are not even allowed in some cars), but I know this is extremely difficult to do, would require a lot of resources put by SMS into that. Maybe it can be further improved in PC3 though.

My suggestion in the current state of things, is that people should not ask for "a good setup", but instead ask a few simple directions on what (and why!) they should change in a certain car/combo. The answer could be just 4-5 items, which will indeed make a big difference and the rest can be ignored for starters. Of course that would require people willing to help out others that want to start with tuning, by giving them really good advice, like "change x because it will affect y", instead of vague answers like "just change x and y to your liking". Also I think people should not look too much into setups, until they have a very good base for that, which means being generally consistent in lap times and also be relatively competitive at least. If someone is 7-8 seconds behind the top times, then all effort should be put on getting better at driving, not worrying about setups yet.

Anyway, that's my view on the matter, hope I didn't bore everybody to death with the lecture :)

Edit: Just to be clear, of course offering a complete setup is much better than not having a setup at all, so what blinkngone is doing by sharing his setups (or the standard) setups with people that have no access to them is already very helpful and extremely kind of him. But I think this should trigger people to ask him what and why he did what in his setups, try to further modify them themselves, instead of just using the setups like they are black magic (which it does seem to be at first glance!).

Roger Prynne
22-10-2017, 09:54
Just using other people's setups I don't think it's really an option either, because people that are good in doing setups make them in a way that they are suitable to themselves, and as I have found in practice, if your driving style is different than theirs, then their setup is not of much use to you.
Yep that's a very good point, and one that some don't take into consideration.

cpcdem
22-10-2017, 10:08
One more thing, I would really love to have an option in game to compare setups, see what's the difference between them. Mainly compared to the default setup. Maybe the setup items that are modified should be shown in different color in the tuning setup screen? Because now I am downloading many setups from blink, but I have no idea what he did. I need to either learn the default setups from heart, or take screenshots of the default setup and his and then compare them by pictures, which is big PITA. In AC, setups where saved as regular text files (.ini style), so it was easy with a file compare program to quickly spot the differences. SMS, please help us in this direction.

DayGlow
22-10-2017, 19:00
I understand people's points about tuning is a very individual thing, but there are a few things that would help with a real virtual engineer.

The biggest is the new tire model and how much pressure effects grip. I think a virtual engineer could know what the optimal baseline pressure needed in a tire for the current temperature and conditions at the track. Sure an alien sim racer may prefer his tires a little more or less inflated for their .001 difference in lap time, but for most get in and go racers close to optimal pressure would be enough.

Sure I can research and find tables on what cold pressure I need because the track temp has changed x from quality to race, but I don't find that fun or rewarding. I'd love if the virtual engineer could do this for me. I'm don't expect it to tune the car to the nth degree, but basics like tire pressure and fuel levels wouldn't be that much of a stretch.

Robhd
22-10-2017, 19:33
.. Also why not a baseline toe/camber setting for the car/track?

Wayne Kerr
22-10-2017, 19:35
love seeing posts like this, as it's a complete contrast to my approach.

when i get a new game, my fun gets out of "how quickly can i figure out the car". the driving part to me is more a "validation" part rather than the actual point of the game.

an almost complete opposite approach to the OP.

This attitude extends to my job irl (which takes place at the track as well). Because he isn't a gold-level rated driver, him winning / losing is secondary to me compared to whether we provided him the proper car for a) his ultimate enjoyment, b) run at his limit -- whether that's the limit of the car or not is another story obviously, but the target is always w/i 1.5s of the benchmark that drives the same car.

cpcdem
22-10-2017, 21:58
The biggest is the new tire model and how much pressure effects grip. I think a virtual engineer could know what the optimal baseline pressure needed in a tire for the current temperature and conditions at the track. Sure an alien sim racer may prefer his tires a little more or less inflated for their .001 difference in lap time, but for most get in and go racers close to optimal pressure would be enough.


I think still nobody is absolutely certain about optimal pressures/temps yet, possibly not even the devs themselves! There are many threads about this matter and I suspect the situation will change again with the next patch, so I think we should just wait until this matter settles.

hkraft300
22-10-2017, 23:46
Optimal temps and pressures vary for the same car between tracks. Depends on the track type, setup, tire loading, conditions.... I digress.

You wanna pay me for tunes? Sure! I'll take your money ;)

In the meantime, post details. Track, car, conditions, symptoms. Tuning is like curing an illness. Solving a problem.

Driver can say "car understeers" but there's 100 cures for that and not all of them effective. Where's it understeer? Is it corner specific, entry/mid/exit... these are all symptoms. Telemetry data is like the MRI or blood test the doctor sends you for.

Post details of a problem and you'll see the effective solutions. From there, slowly but surely you can connect the dots.

It's part of the skill of a race driver.sure he can't turn a spanner, but he's very analytical of his relationship with his car and how it behaves, which he can communicate to his engineer.

DayGlow
23-10-2017, 16:33
I think still nobody is absolutely certain about optimal pressures/temps yet, possibly not even the devs themselves! There are many threads about this matter and I suspect the situation will change again with the next patch, so I think we should just wait until this matter settles.

Casey has posted the target hot pressure for the different tires.

Like I said before, it didn't have to be the optimal pressure for your driving style that you would get from hours of testing. I'm fine with close enough.

cpcdem
23-10-2017, 18:31
Casey has posted the target hot pressure for the different tires.

Like I said before, it didn't have to be the optimal pressure for your driving style that you would get from hours of testing. I'm fine with close enough.

Yeah, but for example for the GTs, the suggested range is from 23psi to 28psi, which is quite high I guess. Also it is not very clear I think what's up with temperatures, which are the ideal ones and how pressures affect them. Also what's the ideal pressure for high speed without causing too much problem in turns and stuff like that, there are so many cars in this game so it must not be easy for the devs to have them all under control already. I think it is a confirmed problem that some cars do not get up to temperature at all is some circumstances and this will be fixed, so I assume the tire/pressure/temps model will be modified in a smaller or larger extent after the next patch.

Ball325
23-10-2017, 18:54
So many people think that setting up a car is an engineers job, but any competitive driver knows that an engineer is only as good as the information provided to him. A driver will never be competitive (in pro ranks) if the most elaborate his feedback ever gets is "it understeers."

A driver needs to understand why and how the car works to be able to diagnose handling issues and resolve them with his engineers. A car that understeers... well is it slow corners, fast corners, entry, exit? any apparent oversteer at any point? The engineer then has to take this feedback and compare it against telemetry (hopefully) to determine what the issue might be. Because every drivers habits and styles are different the set up will change, an engineer can't possibly know what your style is and how to make you comfortable until you have a selection of 3-4 set-up to try PER TRACK for varying conditions. Then they might be able to get ball park.

So, before people can help you get the most out of your car, you will need to learn the basics and be able to identify characteristics on track and retain that information. Because if you don't know the difference between understeer from carrying too much speed, and understeer from over heated tires. People won't be able to help you.

g33k hack3rs
23-10-2017, 19:21
One of the things many forget is that first you need to be consistent and then you can start to judge the effectiveness of setup changes. I'll suggest taking the default stable setup and adjust fuel to give you around 8 to 10 laps. Most tracks will take 3 to 5 laps to heat up so then you'll have about 5 consistent laps. If you get those within a few tenths of each other then you know you're consistent.

Now start working on setup changes with the engineer and again do 8 to 10 laps and try to make sure about 5 of them are within a few tenths of each other. Too many people try to chase a setup prior to even being able to run consistent laps. Knowing the car/track combo and driving line will gain you much more through consistency than setup changes.

Stay away from the loose setup until you have the driving line sorted out.

I'm definitely not good at setup but I'm usually consistent on the tracks I know fairly well. Yes, it would be nice to have a bit more variety than Stable and Loose as a starting point but I found those more than enough until I need to squeeze out the last few tenths.

Wayne Kerr
23-10-2017, 20:57
So many people think that setting up a car is an engineers job, but any competitive driver knows that an engineer is only as good as the information provided to him. A driver will never be competitive (in pro ranks) if the most elaborate his feedback ever gets is "it understeers."

A driver needs to understand why and how the car works to be able to diagnose handling issues and resolve them with his engineers. A car that understeers... well is it slow corners, fast corners, entry, exit? any apparent oversteer at any point? The engineer then has to take this feedback and compare it against telemetry (hopefully) to determine what the issue might be. Because every drivers habits and styles are different the set up will change, an engineer can't possibly know what your style is and how to make you comfortable until you have a selection of 3-4 set-up to try PER TRACK for varying conditions. Then they might be able to get ball park.

So, before people can help you get the most out of your car, you will need to learn the basics and be able to identify characteristics on track and retain that information. Because if you don't know the difference between understeer from carrying too much speed, and understeer from over heated tires. People won't be able to help you.

going to have to disagree with some of your points.

Having worked with a huge variety of drivers (some hobbyists, some are paid silver / gold rated, some have been part of the RB Jr pgm early in their careers), we don't actually need the driver to understand the why. We do, like you alluded to, need him to give us some detailed feedback, what he tried out there and tell us what worked and what didn't.

My ideal guy is someone who can flip the analytical side off when he's out there. He needs to be aware, sure, but driving 10/10ths is such a right brain thing, if you even think about it, you're leaving time out there. Being aware and THINKING about it are two different things to me. He should be able to tel me what the car is doing when he's doing such and such, maybe it's a different when he tries a different traj or wheel feed / brake bleed, and how some of the bumps affect the car when he takes a certain angle; but as far as understanding why the car does what it does? Leave that crap up to the few of us after the debrief.

Get in, drive, get out, inform, discuss how he can go faster by doing certain things different, and then gtho my office and go be a celebrity / rockstar. Let the geeks take over from there.

DayGlow
24-10-2017, 00:28
People seem to be losing sight of the goal. Yes, a good setup tuned for the driver will get you that last 10th of performance and release the max potential of the driver.

As a grey in and race driver I don't really care for that last bit. I can set the ai to 85-90 and have a good time. I can load the stable setup and considerate on the driving side, which when people start chasing setups others remind them that this is more important.

It would be nice if the game could go a little bit farther to cater to the get in and go crowd. As of now tire pressure is my biggest issue. I can play with it in practice and get it where I want, but know with our wonderful weather system I could get fog at race, or the sun breaks through the clouds and years/cools the track. I would hope a decent engineer would know that he had to drop/add pressure to the tire to go with the change in conditions.

I could spent time looking up charts and do it myself, but I have 20 minutes to play and want to go race. I wish the virtual engineer could do a decent enough job to get me into that ball park. I'll let the alien tuner get those last 10ths of performance and hit the WR charts.

I'm happy to place against 85% AI.

Ball325
24-10-2017, 01:55
going to have to disagree with some of your points.

Having worked with a huge variety of drivers (some hobbyists, some are paid silver / gold rated, some have been part of the RB Jr pgm early in their careers), we don't actually need the driver to understand the why. We do, like you alluded to, need him to give us some detailed feedback, what he tried out there and tell us what worked and what didn't.

My ideal guy is someone who can flip the analytical side off when he's out there. He needs to be aware, sure, but driving 10/10ths is such a right brain thing, if you even think about it, you're leaving time out there. Being aware and THINKING about it are two different things to me. He should be able to tel me what the car is doing when he's doing such and such, maybe it's a different when he tries a different traj or wheel feed / brake bleed, and how some of the bumps affect the car when he takes a certain angle; but as far as understanding why the car does what it does? Leave that crap up to the few of us after the debrief.

Get in, drive, get out, inform, discuss how he can go faster by doing certain things different, and then gtho my office and go be a celebrity / rockstar. Let the geeks take over from there.

Uh oh, Driver v. Engineer. :cool:

Perfect case of how every driver is different. As one of these drivers you speak of, I would never turn my analytical side off. Not when I'm developing the car. There is a time to push and focus on extracting 110% from the car and there is a time to experiment and data log to have a meaningful debrief. For me, I found I could get to an optimized set-up much faster than my competition by understanding how the car works. I don't know it anywhere close to the degree you do, but I understand it conceptually. So to give my engineers the best info I'd build a foundation, not worrying about the car. I know we are using a set-up that worked on tracks with similar characteristics, so I had some confidence in the car. I found the more I understood the less often we struggled.

Then again, I always wondered why the engineers liked me so much. Maybe it was because I have absolutely zero desire to turn a wrench. ;)

hkraft300
24-10-2017, 10:02
Then again, I always wondered why the engineers liked me so much.


... gtho my office and go be a celebrity / rockstar.

Gold :glee:

Wayne Kerr
25-10-2017, 04:28
Then again, I always wondered why the engineers liked me so much. Maybe it was because I have absolutely zero desire to turn a wrench. ;)

nah, it's because you're paying us to be there :D

Jussi Karjalainen
25-10-2017, 20:58
.. Also why not a baseline toe/camber setting for the car/track?For two main reasons:

1) There are somewhere in the vicinity of 20 000 combinations.

2) I really doubt it makes that huge of a difference, once you find a setup that feels good to you. The biggest gains to be had when moving from one track to another come primarily from gearing and aero (including cooling and ride height).