PDA

View Full Version : Can the game's physics handle extremes?



Darkdoc
11-11-2017, 01:32
What I mean by this is the feeling of cars with extreme characteristics, such as being extremely light/heavy/powerful, etc. In Gran Turismo, the Caterham is famous for taking off a lot due to it's weight. The F1 cars are hard to find the aero-balance. Jay Leno's tank car locks up on every corner, etc.

So do the physics in this game stand up to these sorts of conditions? Is everything tuned to stuff in the midrange, or does everything feel natural at both ends of the spectrum?

If so, would the game handle something like the FIA European Truck Racing Championship? The Mercedes Atego Renntruck develops 1200 hp/5,600 Nm of torque, with a weight of 5400 kg! It would be very interesting to race a vehicle that was so dramatically different...

https://www.mercedes-benz.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2014/12/classic_virtueller-rundgang_exponate_Mercedes-Benz-Atego-Renntruck_660x602-660x602.jpg

Project Cars 2 has at least 6 of the tracks used in this series, and adding something like a 5-tonne truck would be great for variety - even better than the Ford Transit van in Forza.

TopAirspace
11-11-2017, 01:56
Now that would be interesting!

My guess would be yes it could, I'd consider a 1200hp MX-5 Radbull pretty extreme :cool:

TopAirspace
11-11-2017, 02:08
How about a 6 tonne Monster Truck instead :cool:

244886

bradleyland
11-11-2017, 03:50
Based on how well the game handles mixed-surface physics, I'm betting that it could. The thing to remember is that each vehicle is tested and tuned to respond accurately. That's why some cars in the game handle better than others. I'm certain SMS could make something like Eurotrucks work.

Interestingly, there's a mod for these trucks in Assetto Corsa, and apparently it works pretty well.

Cheesenium
11-11-2017, 04:08
The game physics is designed to be modular, it can handle extremes level of racing if it is appropriately modified for.

Raklodder
11-11-2017, 04:12
Then perhaps a standalone RX game isn't too far fetched.

ZnarF1883
11-11-2017, 06:15
I find a standalone to be a meh solution - That's what is wonderful in PC2, many disciplines inside it, quickly accessible...would be boring to have one for F1, one for Ovals, one for Dirt, one for Trucks etc etc etc....

Egg90
11-11-2017, 10:12
I was thinking monster trucks would be awesome, do we have any suitable tracks for them though?
For the moment the Ford F-150 is pretty fun.

chieflongshin
11-11-2017, 11:16
I think it'd been confirmed before no trucks unfortunately. I'd love them

Darkdoc
18-11-2017, 18:55
How about a 6 tonne Monster Truck instead
Well, yeah, it would be good for testing the physics. But for racing, not so much. Whereas with actual trucks, you have the ETRC, Formula Truck in Brazil, T1 Prima in India, and the Dakar rally raid series...

Darkdoc
28-11-2017, 17:52
Damn, Forza already has it. I didn't realise they'd got there first.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGvxWo2tTHI

Lol.

VelvetTorpedo
28-11-2017, 18:03
They have been in Automobilista for a while now too, and that the FFB in Automobilista is out of this world (my opinion)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdR20yoyLTQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIelxI10DMc

I think PCARS2 could do these trucks amazing justice.

ShimonART
28-11-2017, 18:10
i guess they will also have to add simulation of water cooled disc brakes to make the trucks work.

Darkdoc
03-12-2017, 15:01
^ Yeah, that's what I mean, it would be a really good addition, even if you don't like trucks.

Morgenmuffel
05-12-2017, 13:09
What I mean by this is the feeling of cars with extreme characteristics, such as being extremely light/heavy/powerful, etc. In Gran Turismo, the Caterham is famous for taking off a lot due to it's weight. The F1 cars are hard to find the aero-balance. Jay Leno's tank car locks up on every corner, etc.

So do the physics in this game stand up to these sorts of conditions? Is everything tuned to stuff in the midrange, or does everything feel natural at both ends of the spectrum?

If so, would the game handle something like the FIA European Truck Racing Championship? The Mercedes Atego Renntruck develops 1200 hp/5,600 Nm of torque, with a weight of 5400 kg! It would be very interesting to race a vehicle that was so dramatically different...

https://www.mercedes-benz.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2014/12/classic_virtueller-rundgang_exponate_Mercedes-Benz-Atego-Renntruck_660x602-660x602.jpg

Project Cars 2 has at least 6 of the tracks used in this series, and adding something like a 5-tonne truck would be great for variety - even better than the Ford Transit van in Forza.


Looks for me, that the engine can handle this ;-)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFQ85p9F7F8

ATSS
05-12-2017, 13:18
Damn i'd llove to see those trucks.

Marlborofranz
05-12-2017, 15:59
AFAIK everything is modelled and simulated in PCars, so when you steer your car, you're actually not telling your 3D model to turn left or right, but you are physically (in the game) turning the wheel, which turns your tyres, which calculate the traction based on the pressure, grip, ground it's riding on... The forces created will move your suspension and axle and thus the chassis. Also the FFB you feel in Project Cars is purely based on what is happening with your tyres and suspension, which is why many people complain other racing sims having "better" FFB. Games like AC add fake effects so you can feel better what is going on or what your car is doing. However, because PCars 2 FFB is based pure on the 600 Hz (calculations per second) physics model, you don't have these fake effects. While of course it feels like you have less "feel" of what the car is doing, it is absolutely realistic because your wheel is doing exactly what your steering wheel would do in this particular circumstance.

This also means that by changing your car setup, e. g. caster, you're also feeling different FFB forces. More caster for example on real cars results in your wheel to self-center with a stronger force, which also increases how "heavy" the car feels through your FFB. So you are steering the car exactly the way you are doing it in real life: You change the angles of your front tyres which results in a chain reaction that makes your chassis turn. Not the other way around...

So I have absolutely no doubt that the trucks would work. Proper 3D-Models, proper car specs, proper engine behavior and suspension geometry and of course a realistic tyre compound the physics are using for the grip calculations.

I'm going to spare the details but in case you're interested: Have a look and do some research what exactly is sumlated in Project Cars 2. It's unbelievable.

Edit: And a little proof on why the physics model is so great: Stand still in your car on the ground. When turning the steering wheel a little bit to the left and right, it feels kinda loose. If you go past that point, your tyres are actually starting to turn to the new position. If you stop there, and turn it a bit to the left and right, it feels loose again. This is because you have "play" in your steering geometry and after exceeding this "play", your tyres start to move and the contact patch on the tarmac starts to rub as the tyre changes the steering angle. You have the exact same phenomena going on in real cars, the most noticable without power steering...

unknwn
05-12-2017, 16:30
Games like AC add fake effects so you can feel better what is going on or what your car is doing.

AC has option for "fake effects" however they are not required/encouraged and in fact main dev is encourages to turn them off if realism is priority. Without these effects AC simulates steering rack forces purely coming from tyres and suspension without additional signal "mixing" which happens in PCARS2 even with RAW setting.



it is absolutely realistic because your wheel is doing exactly what your steering wheel would do in this particular circumstance.

It's realistic to some degree but definitely not exactly like what steering wheel would do in RL (at least not out of the box) even if sim had perfect tyre & suspension due to below reasons (and likely much more):
*Lack of steering assist simulation (please correct me if in fact this is simulated in PCARS2, however I am not aware of consumer sims simulating this).
*Consumer wheels have inbuilt "character" and limitations (linearity, damping, max rotation speed/torque and etc).
*Even with high end direct drive wheel system and accurate to life steering rack forces from the simulation engine you need to take into account wheel diameter and weight (both are different from car to car and will affect final torque output), wheel software settings, finally FFB force gain in-game which should be set to match/scale according to the selected car and the actual wheel torque capability.

Above applies to all sims.

Marlborofranz
05-12-2017, 16:45
I didn't try to bash AC, though. Of course you can deactivate it, I never said it is not possible. But it's a fact that many people complaining About Pcars FFB are referring to AC's FFB and especially to effects you normally do not feel in your real cars steering wheel. Hence they are most likely they seem to miss the additional effects that provide better info of what your car is doing, regardless of being realistic or not. About direct ffb: can just refer to what CEO Ian Bell said. I don't know if the signals are really filtered, though. Mixing the different effects is not filtering. All effects still are coming 100% from your suspensions physic calculations, you just can modify the strength to your liking. While filtering means that some effects are permanently deleted or reduced to a level you can't restore them anymore, which is not the case.


About the steering wheel when standing still: I don't care if the force is 100% accurate for the turning while standing still. However the fact that it behaves the same way as a real car is amazing, isn't it? And you have this in any car. When you turn your wheel slightly your tyre compound bends a little and at some point the bending is so strong that the actual part in contact with the tarmac starts to rotate. With power steer you feel it less because the wheel is light anyway, even at the point where the tyre actually completely starts to turn...

unknwn
05-12-2017, 17:27
I didn't try to bash AC, though. Of course you can deactivate it, I never said it is not possible. But it's a fact that many people complaining About Pcars FFB are referring to AC's FFB and especially to effects you normally do not feel in your real cars steering wheel. Hence they are most likely they seem to miss the additional effects that provide better info of what your car is doing, regardless of being realistic or not. About direct ffb: can just refer to what CEO Ian Bell said. I don't know if the signals are really filtered, though. Mixing the different effects is not filtering. All effects still are coming 100% from your suspensions physic calculations, you just can modify the strength to your liking. While filtering means that some effects are permanently deleted or reduced to a level you can't restore them anymore, which is not the case.

My point was that eve 100% correct tyre/suspension calculation (steering rack forces) is not enough to get exactly the same feedback as in RL for the end user due to hardware/software/wheel&sim setup and the actual FFB system limitations.
BTW both AC and RF2 has been doing this suspension/tyre model steering rack forces for years so it's not news (although the amount of subtle details will be different mostly due to different tyre models).

Talking about mixing/filtering, PCARS2 RAW FFB mode has "Anti Jolt" ON feature which kind of filters/reduces amount of spikes and therefore the whole amount of details gets slightly reduced (at the same time reducing annoying FFB jolts). I am not sure if "filter" is technically correct word to use here as I am not aware how exactly it works, but the end result feels like there is some filtering applied.

Darkdoc
07-12-2017, 06:49
I was thinking monster trucks would be awesome, do we have any suitable tracks for them though?
For the moment the Ford F-150 is pretty fun.
Well, I would imagine a generic stadium would work well for karting, rallycross and a few other disciplines. Beyond that, I don't know anything about monster trucks...

Darkdoc
10-12-2017, 10:59
Looks for me, that the engine can handle this ;-)
Ah, Was that Red Bull game based on the same engine?

Zaskarspants
10-12-2017, 11:06
Ah, Was that Red Bull game based on the same engine?

Yes.

http://airrace.redbull.com/en_AT/article/red-bull-air-race-pc-game-launched

Darkdoc
12-12-2017, 19:44
^ thanks for the link, I had no idea.


AFAIK everything is modelled and simulated in PCars, so when you steer your car, you're actually not telling your 3D model to turn left or right, but you are physically (in the game) turning the wheel, which turns your tyres, which calculate the traction based on the pressure, grip, ground it's riding on
I realise that. I guess they try to do a good job of getting everything to fit together and work as in real life. I guess my question was that, since every mathematical model involves some sort of approximation, you end up with things being tuned for particular ranges. As you move away from the sweet spot, these start to become apparent as small errors when things diverge. In other words, a particular game might work best with cars that are 900-1300 kg or whatever. That's what I was getting at.

When I'm looking at a new game, I often look at the extremes - ie heaviest car, lightest car, most powerful car, most torque, oldest car, that sort of thing. If the physics engine can handle a wide range, then it's probably a good physics engine. Sometimes karts are too grippy, or powerful cars are too twitchy, or things take off into unrealistically long jumps, etc.

Darkdoc
17-12-2017, 21:16
Just thinking - I know it's not in the spirit of motorsport, but having a multi class race in a road car with trucks sprinkled in would really bring the Côte d'Azur or old Spa tracks to life.