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Markus Ott
24-11-2017, 00:00
Yesterday Nathan Bell and I had a little conversation in which he asked me how I would improve the lobby system. After two days of open lobby racing I made up my mind and here it is:

1. Personal Blacklist. Give people the ability to blacklist players for bad driving (with steam-id). If you host a race you can get rid off wreckers and if you are just a client in a lobby you can at least decide to leave

2. Assign Blame for unsafe return to track. One of the worst thing in online lobbies are the people who dont give a damn at all if they reenter a track safely or if they crash into other people. In this case assigning blame is very easy. If someone reenters the track and 0.5 or 1 second after he has a crash with someone he gets a hit on his rating. A BIG hit on his rating. The other driver(s) involved get cleared from a rating hit.
The more drivers are involved in a crash because of unsafe reentering the bigger the hit for the crasher.
The higher the angle of reentering the track, the bigger the hit on the rating. So someone who enters 90 to the race track and crashes gets a bigger hit than someone who reenters with 5

3. Assign Blame for unsafe reentering the race. Basicly the same as unsafe return, it comes basicly down to someone who spins or crashes or whatsoever and completely stops on the track. When taking up speed again and a crash 1-2 second after he speeds up again happens, he gets assigned the blame and all the other drivers involved get cleared from rating hits.


Additionally I have an idea for the rating system. I know the developers are afraid of exploiters, if they tell people exactly what they get safety rating for and what not and how much. As I seen online there a lot of A and S drivers with a rating of 1100 and below and they are still not able to race. However they got to A or S, they did something to "exploit" the system to get to a point they don't deserve.
The problem is that the current safety rating is a grind system. I would replace it with an "average system."
The new system takes a players incidents and compares them to all the other players over the course of the last 20 (or X) races. If it is a very safe player he will get S after 20 races. If it is a bad player he has no chance to get better than F until he gets better. If a good player than has 2 or 3 bad races in a row thats not so bad. If he has 5 then he will fall down, but in general a good player will remain at his average incidents count. The bad player who gets better has a good chance to climb up faster. Especially there is no way to exploit, if you drive 20 races in a private lobby with friends to get a good rating, that rating will soon fall down again if you act like a dick on public lobbies. Exploiting or grinding for a certain rating makes no sense anymore, you have to remain a good driver to deserve a good rating and you will remain in bad ratings if you are a bad driver. It is a more flexible and instantaneous system.

Krobo
24-11-2017, 09:02
Good stuff ! I hope they buy it ;-)

It would be nice if we had a consistent chat system ..I mean it works but once you hit drive & go out on track ,when you come back its not available anymore .. .. That's until the session changes again then it's available again just like the 'back to lobby' button .. once you drive its gone when you get back! ..so if your admin and want to set some rules just before Q or something you have to hit drive & hit T to chat from the car ...

Nathan Bell
24-11-2017, 12:20
For visibility, you were complaining to me constantly on Discord and I decided I'd hear you out. So I started asking what your solutions were for the 'problems' you'd identified. You've made it sound like I contracted you to do this.

Use your common sense in future.

CoproManiac
24-11-2017, 13:19
I personally don't see the problem with grinding for safety rating? All I care about is that people are doing their best to avoid crashes, if they wanna grind for the S safety rating, then I am happy they're doing so as it means they won't ram into me on purpose.
Sure, not everyone with an S rating is a good/fast driver, but as long as they're clean I'm happy.
Safety rating doesn't have much to do with skill rating, as safety rating only means you drive in a safe fashion and skill rating is based upon how good you do in a certain race. I rather see S600 than U1500.

For the rest of your points, I don't really see a problem with the current system as is, other than losing 30-50 points for exiting/ retiring from a race or losing points when being disconnected/kicked.

Markus Ott
24-11-2017, 13:31
It was decided that grinding is boring for the single player part. I don't see why it should be different for MP. I prefer a system that rates the skill instead of grinding up and then be safe in your comfort zone for a long time, racing like crap in public lobbies. My idea makes sure you have to be clean everytime. The S and A drivers I seen for the most part are far away from clean or safe. Exceptions are they guys with A or S AND a rating above 1500. But they are superrare, you also have to find a solution to teach the other 95% of this game that you have to drive with your head turned on.
If you spin or get off track and you are not able to use the track map or relative times or the look left/right options to make sure you are not crashing into someone, you don't deserve better than getting penalized big time.

bmanic
24-11-2017, 13:58
Some kind of blacklist or "tag" system would indeed be very helpful. The other "ideas" I think may be technically really difficult to pull off.. if these kinds of things would be easy, iRacing would have done it long time ago. I think most people who come up with systems and suggestions completely forget that somebody needs to actually code these things to work reliably. It's easy to talk and have ideas. Actually executing those ideas is where the difficult part lies.

As the saying goes: Ideas are worth a dime a dozen.

hotak
24-11-2017, 14:15
Some kind of blacklist or "tag" system would indeed be very helpful. The other "ideas" I think may be technically really difficult to pull off.. if these kinds of things would be easy, iRacing would have done it long time ago. I think most people who come up with systems and suggestions completely forget that somebody needs to actually code these things to work reliably. It's easy to talk and have ideas. Actually executing those ideas is where the difficult part lies.

As the saying goes: Ideas are worth a dime a dozen.

I think that those suggestions are actually good and not impossible to code for:

-the re-joining track angle could be measured as the relative angle between the car and the track-cut line used for time trial either when the car is fully over the line or when the line gets crossed by half of the car, all the metrics are already ingame, so the code should simply take some already present data and measure the angle.

-for the "accident without leaving track" the code could simply take the average speed of all the cars in the lobby in that track portion over the last 2 laps and consider you as "crashed" when you fall below 10% of the average speed (that average speed could be collected by just 2 numbers every 5 meters or so: every time a car passes you do ("sum of all speeds" + "car speed")/("number of cars passed"+1), you save the 2 numbers and the result of the fraction*0.1 is the min acceptable speed). If you are first on first lap, the game just "saves" all the points where you hit someone below a certain speed (like 30km/h could be a sensible one IMHO) and the decision just gets delayed untill all other cars pass on that point. This may take up a bit of memory (less than a replay tho and maybe the data could be taken from the already present replay data) but it should still be doable without needing to generate any more thata than what the game already has, just store a little more of it.

I have no experience in coding "big things", but if the data is present and easy to retrieve, those things shouldn't need many lines of code to add...

CoproManiac
24-11-2017, 15:29
It was decided that grinding is boring for the single player part. I don't see why it should be different for MP. I prefer a system that rates the skill instead of grinding up and then be safe in your comfort zone for a long time, racing like crap in public lobbies. My idea makes sure you have to be clean everytime. The S and A drivers I seen for the most part are far away from clean or safe. Exceptions are they guys with A or S AND a rating above 1500. But they are superrare, you also have to find a solution to teach the other 95% of this game that you have to drive with your head turned on.
If you spin or get off track and you are not able to use the track map or relative times or the look left/right options to make sure you are not crashing into someone, you don't deserve better than getting penalized big time.

I guess I'm superrare then lmao.
Anyways, if you're in a server with bad A or S drivers, you set in a qualifying time so you start in front of them and you probably won't see them the rest of the race. Should be easy to do as they're not good drivers, like you say yourself.
I don't see what the big deal is. Safety rating isn't that important at all. Plus, you can't really force people who want to play the game and try to be safe drivers into lower safety classes and bunch them up with the rammers. These people also payed to play this game, not everyone is fully capable to drive a car the right way and knows how to race with others, atleast they're trying.

Safety rating is not the same as Skill rating. If you wanna filter out the bad A and S drivers, set up a lobby of 1400+ skill. Simple as that.

mbr72
24-11-2017, 17:43
You really need some serious fixing of all kind of stuff regarding online racing.
The skill setup is a joke, it made you lose points for nothing. It obviously does not work at all as there are almost none players above 1500. I had to laugh when there was a community race for 1800+ players. And there was exactly 1 player out of ALL!! For skill setting there should be taken lap times into consideration (like where does someone stand in overall leaderboards, including hot lap times of these players) -> then I have a good indication how fast someone really is.

The chat feature is for nothing. That should be taken much more seriously as this is also a "bonding" thing to gain thrust between the players which eventually also leads to fairer driving (in pauses or when pitting -> where chatting is not even possible!). Simple psychology - at least this works pretty well in AC. And it can be used to kill time while waiting. Or to share setup tips, whatever!

The Safety rating is so unfair that it made me limit my online activities massively. If I am hit on a straight by intention by someone else -> it reduces everything: skills&safety rating.

Other thing: if I leave a online race I expect to be back in the server list, not completely back in the main menu.

And yet another thing: If I am on the server list level, there should be a feature to easily build a race ad hoc --> like you can say, I am interested in these classes, and these tracks -> say ok, and then the system creates a race automatically filling it up with players. Maybe also would give more interesting cars a chance (different to the all-present GT3-class).

When doing a black list: there should be an easy way to tag these guys, e.g. I can see a list, by whom I as hit and when in a race (sometimes it is so fast or chaotic that you are not sure who it was).
I just don't understand why practically all the sims have online features (not only in PCars2, also in AC, in iRacing and in Raceroom) that are massively flawed. That is the one thing that can bind your customers infinetely if done right. And I also would charge it. Not crazy expensive as iRacing does but with a fee around 1-2$ a month to keep away the worst crashers and have more committment to it.

Markus Ott
24-11-2017, 21:36
You really need some serious fixing of all kind of stuff regarding online racing.
The skill setup is a joke, it made you lose points for nothing. It obviously does not work at all as there are almost none players above 1500. I had to laugh when there was a community race for 1800+ players. And there was exactly 1 player out of ALL!!

Now this is just guessing, but looking at the skill ratings I have a certain feeling SMS totally misjudged how online racing will look like in pcars2.
From my understanding if you make 1500 the starting skill rating, you normally expect 50% of your playerbase above that rating and 50% below.
In pcars2 more than 90% are below 1500, the majority even below 1300. Some of these numbers may well come down to bugs and disconnects, but most of them just because driving standards in pcars2 are basicly non existant and people are freefalling.

On top of that skill rating is broken indeed. Had a race some days ago with a friend. I was 1410, she was 1460. I started last and came in 8th without any contacts and got -2 rating. She got DQ'd for missing the mendatory pit stop and became 12th. She got +6 skill rating. That's not possible with ELO if it would work correctly.

mister dog
25-11-2017, 13:19
As I seen online there a lot of A and S drivers with a rating of 1100 and below and they are still not able to race. However they got to A or S, they did something to "exploit" the system to get to a point they don't deserve.
That's not exactly true; the letter is the safety rating, the points are based on how you perform on track. After last night I dropped almost 70 points again because I play with players of a higher skill level so I'm mostly dead last, and I made the mistake to return to pits a couple of times (which seems to eat your rating too).

The disconnects are also taking their toll, must have lost more than 200 points so far only because of that. Point being I'm not surprised to see drivers with an A or an S who have sub 1200 points due to the system being in need of optimization. They will probably be fast and clean racers mostly.

rich1e I
25-11-2017, 14:03
Yeah of course, just replace the current system lol I guess Mr. Ott does all the coding, does he? And I'm not sure if you understood the current rank system. Crashers and wreckers won't get an A or S rank. No. Way. If you get to A and start crashing you'll be going backwards back to D, E and F. I find it really amusing that many people think they know everything better but have no clue about coding. SMS how could you not make a perfect rank system? Damn, you missed this opportunity.

Brado23
26-11-2017, 02:59
I agree with your point 1 to 3, but don't like the suggestion around the safety rating. It took me around 50-55 public lobby races to get from U to A which I think is fine.

bradleyland
27-11-2017, 18:39
That's not exactly true; the letter is the safety rating, the points are based on how you perform on track. After last night I dropped almost 70 points again because I play with players of a higher skill level so I'm mostly dead last, and I made the mistake to return to pits a couple of times (which seems to eat your rating too).

The disconnects are also taking their toll, must have lost more than 200 points so far only because of that. Point being I'm not surprised to see drivers with an A or an S who have sub 1200 points due to the system being in need of optimization. They will probably be fast and clean racers mostly.

Retirements cost you (if I recall correctly) -20 points. Disconnects & quits are -40 points.

Finishing last against players that are rated much higher shouldn't impact your rating that much. You have to look carefully at the entire grid finishing order, and only retire if you absolutely cannot make it back to the pits for repair. Just as in real racing, it is better to finish a lap down than to retire.

I'd like to see the following adjustments:

- Retirement penalty reduced to -12 points (same as K-factor)
- Disconnect (loss of connection) penalty reduced to -20 points
- Quit (quit from menu) penalty remains at -40 points


You can perform the calculations using this tool:

ELO Calculator (http://turo.io/#K-factor%3A%0AK%20%3D%2012%0AStarting%20ratings%20for%20player%20a%20and%20b%3A%0ARa%20%3D%201600%0ARb%20%3D%201200%0AMatch%20score%20(1%20win%3B%200%20loss)%3A%0ASRa%20%3D%201%0ASRb%20%3D%200%0ATransformed%20ratings%20(makes%20computation%20easier)%3A%0ATRa%20%3D%2010%5E(Ra%2F400)%0ATRb%20%3D%2010%5E(Rb%2F400)%0AExpected%20outcome%20(win%20probability)%3A%0AERa%20%3D%20TRa%20%2F%20(TRa%20%2B%20TRb)%0AERb%20%3D%20TRb%20%2F%20(TRa%20%2B%20TRb)%0AResulting%20rating%20(after%20match)%3A%0ARRa%20%3D%20Ra%20%2B%20K%20%20(SRa%20-%20ERa)%0ARRb%20%3D%20Rb%20%2B%20K%20%20(SRb%20-%20ERb)%0ANet%20rating%3A%0ANRa%20%3D%20RRa%20-%20Ra%0ANRb%20%3D%20RRb%20-%20Rb%0A)

You can see that by the math, if a 1200 player loses to a 1600 rated player, you lose only 1 point. Granted, if you lose to multiple 1600 rated players, you could see a greater loss of points.

mister dog
27-11-2017, 18:49
Cheers I had a feeling that returning to pits a couple of times cost me dearly. The punishment of -20 is harsh indeed and will make everyone complete their lap anyway even if they are driving a total wreck, not sure if that should be encouraged actually.

bradleyland
27-11-2017, 19:20
Cheers I had a feeling that returning to pits a couple of times cost me dearly. The punishment of -20 is harsh indeed and will make everyone complete their lap anyway even if they are driving a total wreck, not sure if that should be encouraged actually.

That's the main problem with the current -20 penalty, IMO. It encourages risky behavior.

Sometimes you can drive your car well enough to beat the "failure to make sufficient progress" counter, but you still shouldn't be on track. This is especially true in cases where the front suspension is damaged, which can cause the car to veer wildly into the line of traffic. When you combine this with the lack of a "no passing" rule under yellow flag, you get people flying by at maximum pace, while a racer is struggling to get their damaged car back to the pits. It's a recipe for disaster.

Most of the wrecks I experience in lobbies with drivers who have a B (or higher) safety rating can be attributed to a failure to slow in the vicinity of an incident or disabled car. You simply cannot afford to let up under caution, because the guy behind you cannot resist the urge to take advantage. It creates insanely unsafe conditions in what has otherwise been a greatly improved online environment. I would very much like to see a "no passing under yellow flag" penalty implemented. Local speed limits in the vicinity of severe incidents would help as well.

Basically some more of the stuff they have in real motorsport.

djombaslo
27-11-2017, 19:43
Two things:
- make rating system always on for public lobbies
- limit as to who can create a lobby, because right now we have a lot of lobbies with settings that dont make much sense. you have to reach a certan safety level first to create lobbies.

diesel97
27-11-2017, 19:49
Two things:
- make rating system always on for public lobbies
- limit as to who can create a lobby, because right now we have a lot of lobbies with settings that dont make much sense. you have to reach a certan safety level first to create lobbies.

Why would you join a lobby if you don't like the settings?

bradleyland
27-11-2017, 19:54
Why would you join a lobby if you don't like the settings?

Seriously. Just create your own. The only reason to restrict lobby settings would be if lobbies were a finite resource. They're not. Literally anyone can create one, and that is fine.

bradleyland
27-11-2017, 19:56
Two things:
- make rating system always on for public lobbies
- limit as to who can create a lobby, because right now we have a lot of lobbies with settings that dont make much sense. you have to reach a certan safety level first to create lobbies.

No and no.

We usually run rated lobbies, but sometimes we like to have a goof-about session. Often this means running Road F, where you get the Ford pick-up running against cars like the BMW 2002 around a rally-x circuit, or in the snow. It's hilariously good fun, but only if we don't have to worry about our rating for that session.

With regard to lobby creation, I stated the same above, but it's worth repeating: if you don't like a lobby, don't join; create your own.

FxUK
27-11-2017, 20:14
Retirements cost you (if I recall correctly) -20 points. Disconnects & quits are -40 points.


If retirements lose that many points, that may explain a few things, I'm down to B1100 (give or take, now)

I have retired quite a few times and watched the remainder of the race. Mainly because, I'm so far behind and no chance to make it up, caused by my own stupidity (spinning out) or being rammed to death on corner one in a random lobby.

I though I was doing the honourable thing by retiring, so I'm not running around an empty track for 60 more seconds whilst everybody is patiently waiting for the next round. Yeah, I will now be limping across the finish line, so long as I can beat the clock, even by 1s.

Herege
27-11-2017, 20:18
I see that "How to improve the (open) lobby system", it does not go beyond punishments, in part understandable. But beware of the fake accident triggers, the system will have to be more, but much smarter than it is. And that in my view will not be possible to be fair. How many times we are not wrapped up in the middle of an accident that the contact between vehicles lasts several seconds, and without being for our cause, we are punished for what reason.

For what I read, mainly on 2), how to differentiate a pilote who is pushed to the point of being 90 on the track and consequently suffer an accident of several cars who crash against him?

1) Do not judge the pilot by the duration of contact.

2) The system can take into account the speed of the contact.

3) The system can take into account the number of times a particular pilot hits during a race and with what severity.

4) To have relevance the nature of the contact and its final result, this of the pilot who suffers contact, ends up damaging the car and in what percentage.

5) The percentage of the damage it causes to others in the vehicle's body may be linked to the penalty of the prevaricator.

6)If the offender offends another driver's car to the point that he or she is completely destroyed or unable to finish the race on their own, the offender should be automatically disqualified and placed in the pit box.

7) The percentage of damage that causes in other vehicles will be the same percentage that the cause of the damages suffers in its result, or punctuation.

8) All vehicles that return the track after an accident should remain ghosting for a few seconds or the system places it in a mode that is not in a certain range of vehicles.

9) Many users go up quickly, especially the security level, if among a group they make private races with the intention to rise in this respect. Harming others who do not.

10) Either you do things well, or you better not even do it, because whoever ends up hurt, above all, and it's a little what happens now, are those who try to do things correctly. Which leads to the frustration of racing online and stop doing them. I know several who stopped running online, I'm one of them for now, almost 3 weeks.

It is preferable that the pilots leave the game without being penalized, since among them they can be the cause of damages, and these certainly want out of the game as soon as possible, only that the system penalizes also those that leave by frustration caused by others, and after they are still penalized, I do not think this action is correct.

These are just ideas, some that are applied, and some that are not even taken into account.

bradleyland
27-11-2017, 20:23
If retirements lose that many points, that may explain a few things, I'm down to B1100 (give or take, now)

I have retired quite a few times and watched the remainder of the race. Mainly because, I'm so far behind and no chance to make it up, caused by my own stupidity (spinning out) or being rammed to death on corner one in a random lobby.

I though I was doing the honourable thing by retiring, so I'm not running around an empty track for 60 more seconds whilst everybody is patiently waiting for the next round. Yeah, I will now be limping across the finish line, so long as I can beat the clock, even by 1s.

Definitely finish every race you can. I think I have only retired maybe once or twice in ~20 hours of online play. Some of the most fun I've had during a race is after I've pitted for repairs and made it back out on circuit. This presents opportunities to make up positions, which will frequently involve racing against drivers with slower pace. With so much time lost, the anxiety of achieving a podium goes away, and you can race cleanly and at a more relaxed pace. It's really quite enjoyable, and I feel like I'm a better racer because of it.

FxUK
27-11-2017, 20:43
Definitely finish every race you can. I think I have only retired maybe once or twice in ~20 hours of online play. Some of the most fun I've had during a race is after I've pitted for repairs and made it back out on circuit. This presents opportunities to make up positions, which will frequently involve racing against drivers with slower pace. With so much time lost, the anxiety of achieving a podium goes away, and you can race cleanly and at a more relaxed pace. It's really quite enjoyable, and I feel like I'm a better racer because of it.


Sometimes I do go on, It depends on the opponents / lobby really. Recently I have been in some very clean lobbies, which have been great, here I would persevere, accidents are accidents and to be honest, usually its just me losing it on a corner and waiting for a safe time to re-enter the track.

But if its a random lobby, where I am used as somebodies brakes or side swiped when I go for a clean overtake on a straight, then I just end up losing even more points, along with the will to carry on... Overall, its not that bad, but I would definitely like to see the loss of points reduced for retiring (not quitting). One retire would probably take me 20 races (lol) to earn back the same amount of points. Maybe more, because I haven't really seen them going up much, perhaps by 2 points here and there...only to drop by 10x that in the next race, lol.

Anyway, I won't be retiring any more ;)

mister dog
27-11-2017, 20:46
Let's hope retiring to pits isn't such a punishable offence anymore after a patch or two, because I'm sure the majority of folk out there didn't realize and thought it was the decent thing to do.

TeeMan1975
28-11-2017, 14:50
It's a fair point re: qualifying but then you run the risk, at Monza for instance, when you qualify ahead of them but they miss their braking point and ram you up the a*se!

I tend to hold back a little and let the pack string out before attacking, but if you're against one or two decent drivers the race is then lost... Tough one to gauge.