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View Full Version : Post Patch - Indy Cars, AI, Daytona weirdness



sp3ctor
03-12-2017, 05:10
I set up a race with Indy Cars, same class, 20 AI, 100% on skill/aggression, mandatory pit, 20 laps. Pretty early in the race I noticed that my speeds seemed much faster than anyone else so I started pacing some of the AI and found out that they were driving 60-100kph slower than me consistently. After the race I watched some of the replays from the AI cockpits and yeah, they'd just sort of get to about 230kph and cruise along. I've got no idea why it would do this.

Doug914
03-12-2017, 18:12
You sure about this? Just ran a quick one here with your settings and the AI is running 228 mph at the front (360kph). Although they do too much following in line ,slightly lifting to save fuel, IMHO (i want to change this for next patch), But even still running 40.0 sec laps.

sp3ctor
04-12-2017, 01:20
You sure about this? Just ran a quick one here with your settings and the AI is running 228 mph at the front (360kph). Although they do too much following in line ,slightly lifting to save fuel, IMHO (i want to change this for next patch), But even still running 40.0 sec laps.

Yes, I double checked and ran “same model” instead of same class - just in case it happened to be confusion over the road/oval cars and had the same thing happen. I believe I was running the Honda. I didn’t check the actual speed on replays but I was blasting by people. However - and this is a big however - I ran the same race in the 720s and DID NOT have the same issue. The AI was fast and the gaps were sort of normal.

I’ll give it another try in another car - maybe another open wheel - but the other options set on the race were set to mandatory pit stop, real weather.

Thanks for responding.

sp3ctor
04-12-2017, 04:56
Ok, I’ve run the same race with formula c and rookie and the AI is quite good. It’s only on Indy Cad and it’s only about five or so laps into the race when cars start to pit because of the mandatory pit. That’s when things go pear shaped. Suddenly there is a huge pack of cars running far below a normal speed almost like they are on a high speed parade lap and it seems to get worse as the race goes on. The date is 5/21 on the game. I’ve got practice and qualifying set to off and player set to random start.

The only other weird thing I’ve noticed is that the game says “rolling start” but the option is grayed out and the starts are standing starts. If it’s not happening to you after five or ten laps maybe something on my end is glitched and I should reinstall?

Stone Cold Stig
04-12-2017, 05:42
Ok, I’ve run the same race with formula c and rookie and the AI is quite good. It’s only on Indy Cad and it’s only about five or so laps into the race when cars start to pit because of the mandatory pit. That’s when things go pear shaped. Suddenly there is a huge pack of cars running far below a normal speed almost like they are on a high speed parade lap and it seems to get worse as the race goes on. The date is 5/21 on the game. I’ve got practice and qualifying set to off and player set to random start.

The only other weird thing I’ve noticed is that the game says “rolling start” but the option is grayed out and the starts are standing starts. If it’s not happening to you after five or ten laps maybe something on my end is glitched and I should reinstall?

thats weird.

Doug914
04-12-2017, 10:54
Ok, I’ve run the same race with formula c and rookie and the AI is quite good. It’s only on Indy Cad and it’s only about five or so laps into the race when cars start to pit because of the mandatory pit. That’s when things go pear shaped. Suddenly there is a huge pack of cars running far below a normal speed almost like they are on a high speed parade lap and it seems to get worse as the race goes on. The date is 5/21 on the game. I’ve got practice and qualifying set to off and player set to random start.

The only other weird thing I’ve noticed is that the game says “rolling start” but the option is grayed out and the starts are standing starts. If it’s not happening to you after five or ten laps maybe something on my end is glitched and I should reinstall?

Yes the "rolling start" bug is known. I don't think you need a re-install. So are you saying they are fast before the mandatory pitstop, then slow afterwards? (i didn't run this scenario).

Essemo
04-12-2017, 13:05
I play the indycars a lot and noticed this after the patch too in a couple of races. I had a race at Long Beach where a number of cars were running slowly around the track - it seemed that they had taken damage but didn't pit for repairs. There was no mandatory pitstop in my race.

I had another race with the indycars at the Texas oval where this was even more noticeable. There were a large number of cars lapping slowly and, of course, on a relatively sort oval, I was having to pass virtually every second lap.

I race mostly open wheelers and another thing I noticed about the indycars is that they seem to be pretty flimsy - for the ai, they seem to be much more prone to parts breaking off and damage, compared to the other open wheelers in the game. It's got to the point where I feel like I have to have madatory pitstops in every race otherwise I can win just by staying in one piece while all the ai cars have to pit on account of the damage they're taking.

Mad Al
04-12-2017, 14:11
Simple question, did you have full damage on and did the slow cars have aero damage..

The Indy Oval cars drop huge amounts of speed when they get aero damage. Also occasionally if there are only a couple of cars with major damage the following AI are reluctant to pull out to pass if they catch the slower car at a bad position on the track and can make it look like there are many more slow cars than there actually are.

OddTimer
04-12-2017, 15:01
Simple question, did you have full damage on and did the slow cars have aero damage..

The Indy Oval cars drop huge amounts of speed when they get aero damage. Also occasionally if there are only a couple of cars with major damage the following AI are reluctant to pull out to pass if they catch the slower car at a bad position on the track and can make it look like there are many more slow cars than there actually are.

That's an interesting point. I did a 40 lap multiclass race at Daytona RC (GT3, Lmp1 and 2), full damage on, and I noticed many AI cars got wrecked, some would pit, some would not. I had a clean race, so I think their damage came from faster cars trying to overtake slower cars...I didn't have the pace to win the race, maybe 4th or 3rd place for me, but I ended up wining with a 40 sec lead as all the other GT3 cars had to pit.

sp3ctor
04-12-2017, 15:01
I do have full damage on and I thought, perhaps, that was the problem. However, it seems to be every AI car is slow and sometimes grouped up as you suggest but some are out on their own. I think your hypotheses is possible and I’ll test it tonight when I get home without damage to see if it behaves any differently.

sp3ctor
04-12-2017, 15:09
Yes the "rolling start" bug is known. I don't think you need a re-install. So are you saying they are fast before the mandatory pitstop, then slow afterwards? (i didn't run this scenario).

I *think* it is after they pit because it doesn’t seem to happen until five laps or so in when I’ve seen AI pit. I will try testing it with a couple different changes:

1) damage off to see if it is a damaged car holding everyone up
2) pit off to see if it is a pit problem
3) pit on but with fewer cars so I can keep track to see if it post pit.

Like I said, I didn’t notice the problem with 720s, formula C or rookie. I thought about trying A or Renault to see if another fairly fragile car with a lot of aero has the same problem.

The weird thing is that they go SO slow. It’s not just a little slower, it’s 100kph slower in some cases.

sp3ctor
05-12-2017, 06:17
I ran more tests without a mandatory pit stop. Upside: I'm really getting to know Daytona.

There is something going on that doesn't really show up until five or ten laps in. I think the pit stop simply aggregated an underlying issue. I've watched replays and without being able to see what each AI driver is doing, I suspect what is happening is that even at 120/100 the AI drivers in these cars on this track (haven't tried elsewhere) are off the throttle way too much when approaching other cars, particularly coming up on cars that have slowed down because of damage or another reason. Since laps are so quick, the Indy Cars end up bunching up and creating a weird feedback loop that slows them all down. I'm pretty sure it's not a severe damage issue to a significant number of cars because they aren't pitting for repairs... they just slow way way down.

Try setting up a 20 lap Daytona race, 20 AI in identical cars, 120/100 for skill, 5/21 for the date and real weather. Let the race run the entire way and see if you can duplicate it. I'll check another oval (probably TMS) tomorrow.

Doug914
05-12-2017, 10:12
I ran more tests without a mandatory pit stop. Upside: I'm really getting to know Daytona.

There is something going on that doesn't really show up until five or ten laps in. I think the pit stop simply aggregated an underlying issue. I've watched replays and without being able to see what each AI driver is doing, I suspect what is happening is that even at 120/100 the AI drivers in these cars on this track (haven't tried elsewhere) are off the throttle way too much when approaching other cars, particularly coming up on cars that have slowed down because of damage or another reason. Since laps are so quick, the Indy Cars end up bunching up and creating a weird feedback loop that slows them all down. I'm pretty sure it's not a severe damage issue to a significant number of cars because they aren't pitting for repairs... they just slow way way down.

Try setting up a 20 lap Daytona race, 20 AI in identical cars, 120/100 for skill, 5/21 for the date and real weather. Let the race run the entire way and see if you can duplicate it. I'll check another oval (probably TMS) tomorrow.

I think you are right about that. Its related to getting damage and the the oval logic we have that makes them want to stay in line to save fuel. I'll run that scenario too and try and capture a video so we can tune or even remove that logic completly for now. Thanks for the feedback :)

sp3ctor
05-12-2017, 16:26
I think you are right about that. Its related to getting damage and the the oval logic we have that makes them want to stay in line to save fuel. I'll run that scenario too and try and capture a video so we can tune or even remove that logic completly for now. Thanks for the feedback :)

No problem. I've got a replay saved too if it's helpful. To me, the logic would be that you'd want to pit because those cars are so touchy about damage. I'm not an AI, but taking 100% damage up front makes it almost impossible to maintain any sort of speed. I could see, maybe, that they'd want to stay out for a lap or two but after that it doesn't make sense. It would be nice - and I'm not sure how any of this is programmed - to randomize that behavior within a certain parameter. For example, let's say you've set it up where a car will pit within X laps when it has Y damage. Maybe introduce a bit of randomness to make it seem like the AI is making strategic choices. So X laps +/- Z random number or Y damage +/- random number. That way, if you had ten cars and lets say they all have damage, you wouldn't have all ten pull off at once. Maybe a couple guys stay out figuring they'll get a lead while the other guys are cycling. Maybe a few guys pit a little early because they are sensitive to damage... maybe a few guys pit right on the numbers. Just a thought. I don't program or do logic anymore, I just pretend I do.

Thanks for taking a look. Overall, I love the game. Love it. I think with the tweaks it will only get better. I'd love to talk with someone about AI logic sometime because I'm fascinated by the concept.

Doug914
05-12-2017, 18:17
Looked at this for quite some time today along with a coder. It's two problems. With full damage on, front wing damage is way too sensitive just from light bumping, causing the drag penalty to kick in and slowing those cars way down. Second is the the cars just follow in the draft way too much making for train lines behind a slowed car. So we're going through all this now for better balance to the damage and to get the cars back to passing in the draft. Should make it fingers crossed for patch 4

sp3ctor
05-12-2017, 20:17
Looked at this for quite some time today along with a coder. It's two problems. With full damage on, front wing damage is way too sensitive just from light bumping, causing the drag penalty to kick in and slowing those cars way down. Second is the the cars just follow in the draft way too much making for train lines behind a slowed car. So we're going through all this now for better balance to the damage and to get the cars back to passing in the draft. Should make it fingers crossed for patch 4

That’s fantastic. Thanks for your response. Since we are talking aero and damage... other car you might look at - I haven’t checked this since the patch - is Formula Renault. When I tested it before the patch, you could do 100% damage to front aero by running into one of those plastic warning bollards at idle speed (about 20kmh). Specifically, I first ran a race at Zolder and by about the third lap it looked like a car parts store had exploded on the track. Cars were pitting appropriately, but it was almost impossible to make it through a lap at any speed without taking some damage. Just a thought. I know these aren’t road cars and that the aero is fragile but...

Regarding AI: you may not have time to answer this, but do they learn? Meaning, can they adapt to the behavior of other drivers? I ask because I noticed very early in the release that one could repeatedly pass AI in certain spots. They were legal passes, but in the real world, a team would adapt to that and try to block. I’m not sure how much data the AI sees - like can they see my racing line from previous laps? - but it would be interesting if some of that data got to the AI.

Another long tangent: this leads me back to another question I had early in the race - how much race data does SMS collect? I don’t mean that in a sinister way... but I thought of it in terms of car balancing. If one assumes that SMS can collect race data, I would assume it would be somewhat easy to balance cars when you see enough data. For example, if SMS has access to 10,000 races it could see if car X is much faster than car Y in a statistically significant way... and that sort of leads me back to the AI... if SMS can collect race data, I’d think it could further improve AI logic by looking at human logic during those races.

I swear I’m not drunk.

Doug914
05-12-2017, 20:29
The aero is too sensitive for all formula cars from what i can see. and even too sensitive on normal cars to "bumping". Will take some testing and coder to look at the thresholds etc.

The AI does not learn, But they do "defend" which can ranadomly make it look like they are learning ;)

i don't think we collect data like that other than world record stuff. I personally collect everything i can for informatinal purposes, but ultimitley has to pass my own in game tests for consistenct, speed etc...

sp3ctor
06-12-2017, 01:42
That’s pretty interesting. Thanks for the reply. I was going to send you a private message so I didn’t bore everyone with more AI babble. I’m sort of surprised SMS doesn’t gather more data about races from customers. I don’t know the legal implications across all the countries, so perhaps it’s not worth the headache even if it’s in a TOS agreement.

I’d think if you could grab race data, including some bare bones plot points, that it would be incredibly useful because you’d have a large statistical database of how your users are actually driving which could then feed back into development and the “fake learning” the AI does. No doubt it could become like trying to take a sip out of a firehose but I’d love to see the plot of 10,000 laps by a ton of different users in a given car on a given track.

ermo
06-12-2017, 09:47
@sp3ctor:

I'm quite serious when I say that if there is a WMD3 someday, you should consider joining. :)

Nevermind
06-12-2017, 10:45
I did the Indy 500 race in career mode the other day. In addition to the aforementioned issue with really slow AI cars there were some other strange stuff going on with the AI.

I caught up with a lapped car. It wasn't difficult at all to reel him in, but getting past him was almost impossible. Even though I was drafting behind the AI car I couldn't get close enough to overtake. I even tried using the boost button but the AI just upped the pace further, setting fastest laps without drafting anyone. When I backed off to not kill my tires the AI suddenly slowed down as well. It just seemed to adjust to whatever speed I was doing. Secondly, if you tried overtaking on the inside with the AI car on the outside, they would just slam straight into me. This happened multiple times. It was like they didn't even notice I was there.

sp3ctor
06-12-2017, 16:54
@sp3ctor:

I'm quite serious when I say that if there is a WMD3 someday, you should consider joining. :)

Thanks. How does one do that?

sp3ctor
06-12-2017, 16:58
I did the Indy 500 race in career mode the other day. In addition to the aforementioned issue with really slow AI cars there were some other strange stuff going on with the AI.

I caught up with a lapped car. It wasn't difficult at all to reel him in, but getting past him was almost impossible. Even though I was drafting behind the AI car I couldn't get close enough to overtake. I even tried using the boost button but the AI just upped the pace further, setting fastest laps without drafting anyone. When I backed off to not kill my tires the AI suddenly slowed down as well. It just seemed to adjust to whatever speed I was doing. Secondly, if you tried overtaking on the inside with the AI car on the outside, they would just slam straight into me. This happened multiple times. It was like they didn't even notice I was there.

I've noticed this more with AI trying to overtake other AI cars that have been lapped. They are far too tentative and tend to slow down to the speed of the lapped car, even if that car is in a different class. For example, last night I ran a multiclass race and watched LMP1 and LMP900 cars slow down to the speed of a last place GT3 car for a significant stretch before making the pass even when there is plenty of room on either side of the lapped car. My guess is it has to do with the logic that has been discussed here.

I do think the AI has improved in track chokepoints like hairpins and there is far less of the crazy AI ramming nonsense. They are aggressive in spots but it's what one should expect. Rubbing is racing, right?

Gregz0r
04-01-2018, 23:11
I have no idea what’s going on with the A.i. these days.
In this video, their skill is set to 120 and the aggression set to 100, but they still have no top-end speed(Lotus 98T), or they’re so slow when exiting the corners(this video), that I have to lift off the throttle drastically, in acceleration zones!
It’s ruining what should be fast, close racing.


https://youtu.be/CbNCRBTQ31o

SB83
06-01-2018, 15:21
Hi guys, question for the dev team. Is the LMP AI being fixed? The LMP900 and LMP1 classes are absolutely unraceable as they just pile into me as well as each other at the start and 9/10 times, my car is in pieces before Turn 1.

MillsLayne
06-01-2018, 23:07
Hey guys, it's been a good month or so since I last played. Has the issue been fixed where the oval and road Indy cars are considered the same class? So, when you select same class for a race to get both Chevy and Honda cars in the field, but also get road and oval cars?