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Brandon Pisz
04-12-2017, 14:18
So I've mentioned this countless times and have annoyed a couple people as a result, however that's how we get change. Speaking of change, lets talk sound effects.

First, I'd like to share why I think they're important in a racing simulation like this. Sounds in a racing simulator are everything in my opinion (next to physics of course) because it's everything when trying to feel truely immersed in your car in-game. Say for example I invest in VR. Obviously, I want to feel the immersion and the impression that I'm in that car. However, as gamers the only things we rely on are feel, sound, and visuals. If we don't have realistic sound, we can't really feel immersed in that vehicle. Leading me onto my second point...

Second, I'd like to provide a few examples of not only the current state of the game's sounds compared to real life, I'd like to in a way, describe how to improve upon them.
Here is the 2016 AUDI R8 GT3 in game
-ONBOARD: https://youtu.be/NEsxsr4l-DY
-REPLAY: https://youtu.be/EJelTJXsB5Y
Here is the 2016 AUDI R8 GT3 in real life
ONBOARD: https://youtu.be/fc1IGIL1qjM
REPLAY: https://youtu.be/ZXY-_ZMn4a4
You can hear a noticable difference, correct? How about this...
Lamborghini Huracan in-game
(both onboard/exterior) https://youtu.be/kb0EtQKrn3Q
Lamborghini Huracan in real life
ONBOARD: https://youtu.be/PDHQNYARUAI
EXTERIOR: https://youtu.be/NPhUhTWQKcg
Again, a noticable difference.
One way I think we can improve the GT3 sounds in general, is make the sound effects from straight cut gears much louder and more pronounced. Here is one very good example of this.
Nissan GTR GT3 in game
ONBOARD: https://youtu.be/PpM5VqKHzmw
Nissan GTR GT3 in real life
ONBOARD: https://youtu.be/3i2M2aCNuus
I'm sure you can now see where I'm coming from with this suggestion.
Another way I think we can improve upon the sounds (specifically GT3) is add the compression sound effect. This sound effect however is not heard in some cars. Here is an example of what I mean.
Audi R8 GT3 in real life
ONBOARD: https://youtu.be/RAbWVTKzRx0
In the video, you can hear a "buzzing" sound in the cockpit. That is the paddle shift compressor. This sound is also now simulated in sims like RaceRoom with their AUDI R8 GT3 car.
As for the Huracan, I think a lower pitch as well as a more obnoxious growl in the exhaust would be necessary (like exhaust pops/back fires). This is something which was for some reason more present in Project CARS 1 than 2.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post, if you have any thoughts on what I've said please PM me or reply down below.

If this post is seen by any developer, please consider these changes!
-Brandon

ShimonART
04-12-2017, 14:23
iam going to mention this again, please fix this one car sound at least, it has the old honda engine sound.
as someone who loves this car and pre ordered the delux version for the game i feel ripped off right now, because i just dont drive this car anymore.

game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9pHRwKwR8Q

irl:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35s2GpWCh74

Zaskarspants
04-12-2017, 14:24
The xbox one is hampered I think by lack of power. I got an xx recently and the sound is much improved.

There are many more sounds and a more cohesive sound stage with better detail. I have great gear whine, but I also has this on the ordinary xbox, just turn it up in the settings.

Brandon Pisz
04-12-2017, 14:39
The xbox one is hampered I think by lack of power. I got an xx recently and the sound is much improved.

There are many more sounds and a more cohesive sound stage with better detail. I have great gear whine, but I also has this on the ordinary xbox, just turn it up in the settings.

Doesn't matter what platform it is, the sounds are still not where they should be. Settings also don't effect the lack of transmission whine, compressor sound effects, pitch or brutality of the exhaust.

AbeWoz
04-12-2017, 14:48
the 'irl' video you posted is of a custom-aftermarket exhaust so of course the sound will be different.

Zaskarspants
04-12-2017, 14:54
Doesn't matter what platform it is, the sounds are still not where they should be. Settings also don't effect the lack of transmission whine, compressor sound effects, pitch or brutality of the exhaust.

No there is no 'brutality exhaust slider' , but gear whine IS there on xbox and more complex on xx when you increase car sounds. My car sounds are at 100 along with collision, tyres and road about 50, engines 20.

I listen on an expensive hifi with half decent floor standing 300 quid speakers so this may help with hearing subtle stuff.

I think it does matter what the platform is, the more power allocated to sound processing the better will be the presentation. It sounds to me that compromises had to be made on the xbox one. Another example, on the x more cars engines are modeled, I can hear more cars further away than the xbox version.

Brandon Pisz
04-12-2017, 15:06
No there is no 'brutality exhaust slider' , but gear whine IS there on xbox and more complex on xx when you increase car sounds. My car sounds are at 100 along with collision, tyres and road about 50, engines 20.

I listen on an expensive hifi with half decent floor standing 300 quid speakers so this may help with hearing subtle stuff.

I think it does matter what the platform is, the more power allocated to sound processing the better will be the presentation. It sounds to me that compromises had to be made on the xbox one. Another example, on the x more cars engines are modeled, I can hear more cars further away than the xbox version.

Either way, the sounds aren't as realistic as they need to be for a game such as this. I recommend a complete overhaul on most of the cars in Project CARS 2. Some sound good, most sound a bit off, especially GT3/road class cars. Clearly if there are people disagreeing entirely/saying the sounds are absolutely perfect, that person has not heard what the cars in this game actually sound like. Also, please be sure to click the link I have provided and compare them to the real car. What I'm saying will make much more sense!

Roushman624
04-12-2017, 15:11
I've heard a lot of the cars in the game in person and they are pretty close if you ask me. Of course they could use some tweaking but overall they are very accurate.

Zaskarspants
04-12-2017, 15:12
Either way, the sounds aren't as realistic as they need to be for a game such as this. I recommend a complete overhaul on most of the cars in Project CARS 2. Some sound good, most sound a bit off, especially GT3/road class cars. Clearly if there are people disagreeing entirely/saying the sounds are absolutely perfect, that person has not heard what the cars in this game actually sound like.

Sound is complicated. Each type or brand of microphone an give a surprisingly different recording, distance from source and the environment the recording was made in are also variable factors.

It would be impossible and wrong I suggest to tune the game to sound like some random you tube phone video.

OddTimer
04-12-2017, 15:13
also to keep in mind, sound is overall a lot better on 3.0. Youtube videos are super compressed as well...just saying.

Brandon Pisz
04-12-2017, 15:18
I've heard a lot of the cars in the game in person and they are pretty close if you ask me. Of course they could use some tweaking but overall they are very accurate.

I completely agree, (some cars) sound very, very close. Others sound pretty far off. Examples: AMG GT3, AUDI/HURACAN GT3, MCLAREN 650S GT3, HURACAN, AMG GTS, MCLAREN 720S, 570S, LAMBORGHINI AVENTADOR, PAGANI ZONDA C, R. Those are just some cars in PC2 that I've driven that sound quite odd and far from their real counterparts. I know there are probably some others, again (JUST TO CLARIFY) I am not saying they sound bad in any way, just not as accurate as they could.

Zaskarspants
04-12-2017, 15:25
I completely agree, (some cars) sound very, very close. Others sound pretty far off. Examples: AMG GT3, AUDI/HURACAN GT3, MCLAREN 650S GT3, HURACAN, AMG GTS, MCLAREN 720S, 570S, LAMBORGHINI AVENTADOR, PAGANI ZONDA C, R. Those are just some cars in PC2 that I've driven that sound quite odd and far from their real counterparts. I know there are probably some others, again (JUST TO CLARIFY) I am not saying they sound bad in any way, just not as accurate as they could.

Not as the same as you heard clearly but the game is not reproducing your exact driving scenarios so it will be different even if it was perfect.
I think it is more important that they sound distinctive and identifiable as the car they represent and that I do feel to be the case.

I think that it is an exaggeration to say they are ' far away ' from accurate.

RaceNut
04-12-2017, 15:26
I found that if I have the Headphone Mix enabled with my Oculus Rift, the audio is very muffled (like helmet audio) and the surround effects are not as effective in VR.

BrunoB
04-12-2017, 15:27
Im absolutely not defending anything mediocre here but comparing the sound in a game with RL sounds is (to say it politely) a bit exaggerated.
Conserning the single sound elements like the mentioned gear whine or shifting compression buzz its ofcourse allways a good point to get them as realistic as possible - in the longer run.
But conserning pCars2 sound quality in general I consider it quite good.
At least the cockpit sounds I have experienced.:p

And now to my point.
I compare the sound in pCars2 against other racing sims!
And compared to as example iRacing the (cockpit)sound in pCars2 is way better.
Better directionality and more sound components and more "umph".
But as example compared against rF2 then the 360 degree directionality and reflections are again way better in rF2.

NOTE: Be aware that if you want to discuss sound quality and directionality in a game as pCars2 then ‎the minimum prerequisite is that you use a proper soundcard.
Or at least a more advanced MB "soundcard" than the simple sound codecs most price pointed motherboards does offer.:cool:

Auzentech Forte 7.1 (X-Fi)

Brandon Pisz
04-12-2017, 15:39
Im absolutely not defending anything mediocre here but comparing the sound in a game with RL sounds is (to say it politely) a bit exaggerated.
Conserning the single sound elements like the mentioned gear whine or shifting compression buzz its ofcourse allways a good point to get them as realistic as possible - in the longer run.
But conserning pCars2 sound quality in general I consider it quite good.
At least the cockpit sounds I have experienced.:p

And now to my point.
I compare the sound in pCars2 against other racing sims!
And compared to as example iRacing the (cockpit)sound in pCars2 is way better.
Better directionality and more sound components and more "umph".
But as example compared against rF2 then the 360 degree directionality and reflections are again way better in rF2.

NOTE: Be aware that if you want to discuss sound quality and directionality in a game as pCars2 then ‎the minimum prerequisite is that you use a proper soundcard.
Or at least a more advanced MB "soundcard" than the simple sound codecs most price pointed motherboards does offer.:cool:

Auzentech Forte 7.1 (X-Fi)

Again, they are good, just not as good as they should be at this point. Watch this for example.
RaceRoom R8 GT3 (both onboard/replay) https://youtu.be/-VC7R20aKVE
Project CARS 2 R8 GT3
Onboard - https://youtu.be/NEsxsr4l-DY
Replay - https://youtu.be/EJelTJXsB5Y
RaceRoom got it almost perfect, if not perfect. It simulates the compression sound effect and the transmission whine. While PC2 only simulates the pitch (kind of). There is obvious improvement that needs to be made.

Tbolt
04-12-2017, 15:43
Again, they are good, just not as good as they should be at this point. Watch this for example.
RaceRoom R8 GT3 (both onboard/replay) https://youtu.be/-VC7R20aKVE
Project CARS 2 R8 GT3
Onboard - https://youtu.be/NEsxsr4l-DY
Replay - https://youtu.be/EJelTJXsB5Y
RaceRoom got it almost perfect, if not perfect. It simulates the compression sound effect and the transmission whine. While PC2 only simulates the pitch (kind of). There is obvious improvement that needs to be made.

That RaceRoom R8 sound so much better, they've really done a good job there, let hope we can get something close to it in the future.

Brandon Pisz
04-12-2017, 15:45
That RaceRoom R8 sound so much better, they've really done a good job there, let hope we can get something close to it in the future.

Exactly, it sounds incredible, unlike anything I've heard in a game and its possible! That's what Project CARS 2 needs to sound like I think.

Pete Gaimari
04-12-2017, 15:46
The sound of the Lotus 25 is not even close. It sounds like they just used the sound from the Lotus 49 which is ridiculous. The Cosworth sounds nothing like the Climax in real life.

Zaskarspants
04-12-2017, 15:49
They are just different, both are good.
As I said befor I have great gear whine and lots of other new noises on the x, even perhaps this compressor thingy?

Brandon Pisz
04-12-2017, 15:51
They are just different, both are good.
As I said befor I have great gear whine and lots of other new noises on the x, even perhaps this compressor thingy?

No, the compressor sound effect isn't in PC2 at all no matter the platform. Again, it sounds good in PC2 but still not good enough. Listen to RaceRoom... That's just.... So so much better. PC2 needs sounds like that.

Zaskarspants
04-12-2017, 16:07
No, the compressor sound effect isn't in PC2 at all no matter the platform. Again, it sounds good in PC2 but still not good enough. Listen to RaceRoom... That's just.... So so much better. PC2 needs sounds like that.

Yes I listened to your vids, as I said they just sound different and I accept you prefer one, I prefer the other, but both are fine. TBH, the rr video sounded very similar to pcars but with bass boost.

Brandon Pisz
04-12-2017, 18:18
Yes I listened to your vids, as I said they just sound different and I accept you prefer one, I prefer the other, but both are fine. TBH, the rr video sounded very similar to pcars but with bass boost.

Honestly, if you think PC2 sounds more realistic than this https://youtu.be/-VC7R20aKVE you haven't heard the real one.

Benja190782
04-12-2017, 19:08
Honestly, if you think PC2 sounds more realistic than this https://youtu.be/-VC7R20aKVE you haven't heard the real one.

That sounds really really good yes - but Stephen Baysted is still doing a great job imo.
The McLaren 570s sounds absolutely amazing in PC2.

I just played the PC2 demo and the sounds are much improved - also sounds in replay are a lot better, so patch 3.0 should make PC2 a step further I think.

I'm in the same boat as you, Brandon! Sounds are the most important factor in a racing game. Sounds make you feel the immersion.

I'm not sure if Sector3 and Codemasters use the FMOD engine to create sounds like SMS does, but they are really really good at it.

To be honest I don't expect SMS to do all their cars at that top level. But 10 cars would make fans happy too. It's a big job to record those beast. No doubt about it. So to me it's clear why DiRT Rally and R3E can hit that level. There is no way near that amount of cars to record. Simple.

I believe Stephen Baysted can do the same for us. But it has to be like 10 cars or so.

Pete Gaimari
04-12-2017, 19:12
Sounds are really important. If you want to go to sleep. Watch a Formula E race. ZZZZzzzzzz.....

Zaskarspants
04-12-2017, 19:26
Sounds are really important. If you want to go to sleep. Watch a Formula E race. ZZZZzzzzzz.....

I like formula E, and I think the electric takeover of motorsport is inevitable as the tech improves, and if formulas embrace it.
I have my engine noise very low in the game, only 20, but car sounds at 100, so that explains why I dont mind formula E sound.

Soz for going a bit off topic.

Pete Gaimari
04-12-2017, 19:29
You like the sound of an electric motor? Give me a Ferrari V12, or a DFV anyday.

TheHeathen
04-12-2017, 19:31
https://youtu.be/RBgcqyLJUvo

Zaskarspants, I have been to 100+ races in my lifetime. There is a place at Lime Rock Park on the first turn where you can stand about 20 ft from the corner. This is what it sounds like. I can close my eyes and I would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

PC2 has a good start, but they can do a lot better.

They need to re-mix a lot of sounds and maybe re-record some sounds.
They need to remove some of the clipping that happens on certain cars.
They need to add brake ring and tranny whine to the external sounds.
They need to add better reverb to internal and external sounds.
They need to tie the tranny whine to the actual RPMs of the transmission instead of using a canned sound.

There is more I am sure.

SMS has really done a great job on most of the recordings. Some, not so much. I love PC2 and I just want it to be the best possible.

Zaskarspants
04-12-2017, 19:32
You like the sound of an electric motor? Give me a Ferrari V12, or a DFV anyday.

I like both.

Marlborofranz
04-12-2017, 19:53
Well the sounds in PCars 2 are not bad at all, I guess. The characteristics are 95% right so you can easily say what brand/engine type it is based on the sound.

However, to be realistic the sounds are missing something
- More randome "dirt" noises in the cockpit, e.g. you're running over small gravel/dirt which gets thrown into your wheel case by your tyres. I know we have it and it sounds neat, but it barely appears
- Cockpit should sound more "reverby" since most race cars are kind of empty, means a lot of reverb. It just doesn't sound like you're sitting in a closed cockpit with a massive engine underneath your ass. It sounds more like you're outside the car next to it...
- Partially louder gear whine
- When transfering from acceleration to coasting/braking, there is some "play" in your drive train that makes the whiney gears stutter a bit. At the moment the sound is static, repeating sound file here. The stuttering of the whining gears is not related to your actual throttle inputs at all. There should be a "gear whine wobble" whenever you go from coasting to acceleration and vice versa... The static one we're using at the moment is just to repetitive...

EDIT: AFAIK the drive train is modelled and simulated completely, means we already kind of have the "base functionality" to embed sound files in order to get a smashing gear whine effect...

Brandon Pisz
04-12-2017, 20:04
Right, just simple things that I know they can do. RaceRooms sound design is just.. Orgasmic. Its so good, I'm atonished by how realistic it can be, it dissapoints me that Project CARS 2 is 3 times the sim that RaceRoom is, but the sounds are no where near as good as RaceRooms.

Marlborofranz
04-12-2017, 20:18
Right, just simple things that I know they can do. RaceRooms sound design is just.. Orgasmic. Its so good, I'm atonished by how realistic it can be, it dissapoints me that Project CARS 2 is 3 times the sim that RaceRoom is, but the sounds are no where near as good as RaceRooms.

True... I already loved the screaming gears from GTR 2. I don't like the engine sounds from Race Room as much as the ones from PCars 2, however the cockpit sound and the gearbox whine is much better.

E. g. I like the reverb in Assetto Corsa, lots of reverb there inside the cars. After weight reduction there is nothing more than your seats and a fire extinguisher, so you have a lot of surfaces reflecting sound waves from your engine and you can absolutely hear that. It improves immersion a lot... And then the wind noises and dirt/stones on track randomly hitting your wheel cases...

In Iracing we have dynamic gearbox whine when changing from acceleration to coasting and vice versa, so the stuttering is not just repeating based on your RPM, but also on your throttle inputs. This makes it kind of unique every time you lift the gas... (I am actually pretty sure it is dynamic because when lifting the throttle, the RPM counter jumps up and down synchronous to the jittering gearbox whine sounds)
The gearbox whine sound itself is nice in PCars 2, though I love the one from Race Room, too.
And last but not least: The original engine sounds from PCars 2, because most of them just sound like the real deal.

Throw all of this into a pot, add a bit more bass to your core sound, then blast your head off. 11/10 would melt my brain again.

TheHeathen
04-12-2017, 20:53
True... I already loved the screaming gears from GTR 2. I don't like the engine sounds from Race Room as much as the ones from PCars 2, however the cockpit sound and the gearbox whine is much better.

E. g. I like the reverb in Assetto Corsa, lots of reverb there inside the cars. After weight reduction there is nothing more than your seats and a fire extinguisher, so you have a lot of surfaces reflecting sound waves from your engine and you can absolutely hear that. It improves immersion a lot... And then the wind noises and dirt/stones on track randomly hitting your wheel cases...

In Iracing we have dynamic gearbox whine when changing from acceleration to coasting and vice versa, so the stuttering is not just repeating based on your RPM, but also on your throttle inputs. This makes it kind of unique every time you lift the gas... (I am actually pretty sure it is dynamic because when lifting the throttle, the RPM counter jumps up and down synchronous to the jittering gearbox whine sounds)
The gearbox whine sound itself is nice in PCars 2, though I love the one from Race Room, too.
And last but not least: The original engine sounds from PCars 2, because most of them just sound like the real deal.

Throw all of this into a pot, add a bit more bass to your core sound, then blast your head off. 11/10 would melt my brain again.

I agree about the internal sounds of RaceRoom, but the external TV replays are spot on. I really don't think nothing is closer at the moment.

Mark Race
04-12-2017, 22:06
Hmmm...I'm really not sure about this thread. Realistic sound? What from a spectator perspective or as a driver?

Try putting on a helmet and in some cases earplugs in and seeing how much 'sound' you get. Oh are we pretending we don't have to wear helmets and get the full interior cockpit sound as heard by a microphone in the cockpit?

The sound is as dependent on the car as the previous steering wheel discussion.

If you like going deaf in your left ear and not really being able to hear anything but air sucked in by a supercharger I strongly suggest a drive in an Ariel Atom A300. The first few laps really are an attack on the senses.

cluck
04-12-2017, 22:28
One other thing you have to consider is that there are only a certain amount of resources available and these all have to be balanced. Capturing and mixing every single thing that makes a noise in a car is not "free" in terms of resources. In short, if the devs were to create a different mix, or add extra elements in, something will have to be taken away. RRRE, for example, can get away with it because it's a PC exclusive game and has less fidelity (for want of a better word) in other areas. I'll happily eat my hat if they introduce a full 24-hour day/night cycle (with proper projected shadows), weather and then slap that out on the current gen. consoles with no loss of audio fidelity across all formats :).

It's all a question of balance.

Then, yes, you get into the murky world of "what does it actually sound like in the car", not "what does it sound like in a video". I've not had the pleasure of driving any of the in-game cars in real life so I am the last person to say what's right and what's wrong, so I don't.

Brandon Pisz
04-12-2017, 23:03
One other thing you have to consider is that there are only a certain amount of resources available and these all have to be balanced. Capturing and mixing every single thing that makes a noise in a car is not "free" in terms of resources. In short, if the devs were to create a different mix, or add extra elements in, something will have to be taken away. RRRE, for example, can get away with it because it's a PC exclusive game and has less fidelity (for want of a better word) in other areas. I'll happily eat my hat if they introduce a full 24-hour day/night cycle (with proper projected shadows), weather and then slap that out on the current gen. consoles with no loss of audio fidelity across all formats :).

It's all a question of balance.

Then, yes, you get into the murky world of "what does it actually sound like in the car", not "what does it sound like in a video". I've not had the pleasure of driving any of the in-game cars in real life so I am the last person to say what's right and what's wrong, so I don't.

Alright, here! Here's another example of an obvious lack of straight cut gear whine in the game.

Project cars 2 BMW M6 GT3 \/
https://youtu.be/o8A2lpIFzW0


Real life BMW M6 GT3 (SKIP AHEAD TO THE MIDDLE OF THE VIDEO) \/
https://youtu.be/GB1KBo8_rag

There is obviously a huge lack of gear whine from the PC2 version. Also look at this!

Project CARS 2 Mercedes AMG GT3 onboard \/
https://youtu.be/zilB99pT_KY


Real life Mercedes AMG GT3 Onboard \/
https://youtu.be/LiU8KeztTOI

Louder straight cut gears/paddle shift compressor is needed in PC2. The sounds are good but still not very realistic. No matter what video you watch with what kind of quality mic, its pretty obvious the car has straight cut gears that make you want to rip your ears out. I don't think it should simulate the audio that you would hear while wearing a helmet/ear plugs unless you're in that camera view, which even when you are in that camera view it doesn't sound the way it should. I've only ever been in an Huracan GT3 Super Trofeo at Sonoma RaceWay with a helmet (no earplugs) and it sounds extremely muffled (like assetto corsa). In PC2 while in helmet cam, its the exact same regular cockpit sound just quieted down by 5 ticks.

Brandon Pisz
05-12-2017, 00:24
Here's another video of Project CARS 2 this time being compared to RaceRooms M6 GT3.
https://youtu.be/7APKYBtWroA
The differences are obvious.

Or this comparing it to real life
https://youtu.be/HRBdGk5M1RM

Konan
05-12-2017, 06:41
Here's another video of Project CARS 2 this time being compared to RaceRooms M6 GT3.
https://youtu.be/7APKYBtWroA
The differences are obvious.

Or this comparing it to real life
https://youtu.be/HRBdGk5M1RM

Have you even read some of the answers given?

Cheesenium
05-12-2017, 07:05
And also, not every real-life recording is accurate. There are vibrations of the car might also be recorded by the recording device.

After listening to several race cars racing in real-life for me, I think it is literally impossible to recreate a 1:1 replications in a game. There are certain things that one game got it right while got it wrong elsewhere, no game is perfect. I still remember the first time I heard the 911 Porsche Cup in real-life, I was actually underwhelmed by how awful it sound like compared to AC or AMS when a pack of them speeding down the straight in front of me. It was soft, lack of transmission whine and the engine sounds like it is dying but that is how it actually sound like in real life despite they have real recording of the car for the new version.

R3E has wonderful sounds but I think they tend to lean a bit too much on youtube videos at times for some cars. A lot of real cars aren't as loud as how the game portray them to be, especially a lot of the newer race cars. They did improve their sound recording process which people complained how awful the newer DTM sound like compared to the previous years.

One thing I will say, SMS really nailed quite a number of the cars in Pcars. The SLS and AMG GT3 are my favorite because that is exactly what I heard when I was on trackside with these cars passing by. Meanwhile, others such as VASC is still quite off from my experience of seeing them beside the track.

vassalfada
05-12-2017, 07:29
I'll happily eat my hat if they introduce a full 24-hour day/night cycle (with proper projected shadows), weather and then slap that out on the current gen. consoles with no loss of audio fidelity across all formats :).

.

About audio fidelity, it is indeed possible on both consoles and PC with no loss, tools like Fmod allow to export your sounds in all formats simultaneously.
Assetto Corsa is one exemple of this but PCARS 2 is also using Fmod, so theorically no loss or compromise either.

mister dog
05-12-2017, 07:36
I think the engine notes on most of the new cars are pretty much spot on, and the oomph factor is definitely catered for too. Personally I'd like louder wind noise especially in open wheelers, customized transmission whine ( there's only one or two samples at the moment), and that bang from the gearbox when changing gears needs to be a bit more subtle.

But overall I think the audio team made great strides already compared to PC1 and they deserve credit for that.

Sankyo
05-12-2017, 07:42
About audio fidelity, it is indeed possible on both consoles and PC with no loss, tools like Fmod allow to export your sounds in all formats simultaneously.
Assetto Corsa is one exemple of this but PCARS 2 is also using Fmod, so theorically no loss or compromise either.
It's not about audio recording fidelity, it's about the processing power needed to reproduce all sounds, and at full fidelity. A game with so many things going on needs to limit CPU resources on every task, and that can mean that the number of sounds, the use of DSP etc. has its limits and therefore you may not always be able to reproduce real-life sound fully.

vassalfada
05-12-2017, 07:43
After listening to several race cars racing in real-life for me, I think it is literally impossible to recreate a 1:1 replications in a game.

R3E has wonderful sounds but I think they tend to lean a bit too much on youtube videos at times for some cars. A lot of real cars aren't as loud as how the game portray them to be, especially a lot of the newer race cars. They did improve their sound recording process which people complained how awful the newer DTM sound like compared to the previous years.



I think it's totally possible, with the right tools and a proper budget.

It's already possible to get very close to real life with low budgets and old tools so it's only a question of priority/willing.

About the newer GT sounds in Raceroom, it's true that the YouTube sources tend to make them sound "bigger" than they are in real life, but don't we prefer it that way? I mean, modern GT3 sounds can be boring irl ;)

vassalfada
05-12-2017, 07:47
It's not about audio recording fidelity, it's about the processing power needed to reproduce all sounds, and at full fidelity. A game with so many things going on needs to limit CPU resources on every task, and that can mean that the number of sounds, the use of DSP etc. has its limits and therefore you may not always be able to reproduce real-life sound fully.

Yea, in some cases, there might be some compromise to make for consoles, but hopefully not so much on the very last gen.

Bealdor
05-12-2017, 08:05
About the newer GT sounds in Raceroom, it's true that the YouTube sources tend to make them sound "bigger" than they are in real life, but don't we prefer it that way? I mean, modern GT3 sounds can be boring irl ;)

That's the question. Are you going to base your audio design on as realistic as possible sources (which may result in less "exciting" car sounds) or do you wanna go down the "Let's make it sound like on Youtube because that's the only reference most players will compare it to" road?


Yea, in some cases, there might be some compromise to make for consoles, but hopefully not so much on the very last gen.

Unfortunately there are still (too) many compromises to make regarding audio fidelity.
Most of the time because graphics are more important to sell your game and therefore get the higher memory budget/priority.
And yes, this is still an issue on current gen consoles.

cluck
05-12-2017, 09:50
About audio fidelity, it is indeed possible on both consoles and PC with no loss, tools like Fmod allow to export your sounds in all formats simultaneously.
Assetto Corsa is one exemple of this but PCARS 2 is also using Fmod, so theorically no loss or compromise either.Right, and does Assetto Corsa do it with a full day/night cycle (with proper working headlight projection) and weather?

My point wasn't that it can't be done, it's that compromises must be made when you are trying to simulate xyz instead of x :)


EDIT : Well, Bealdor got there first in re-explaining my point.

gj_ozracer
05-12-2017, 10:38
Lets keep it in perspective.
for an $80 game there is a lot of stuff crammed very tightly, and it all works reasonably well, in most respects.
And across multiple platforms too!

If SMS were to have an unlimited budget, with unlimited resources and unlimited time, then I am sure they would be able to produce the worlds best simulator game with all the fruit of perfect sounds, real to life graphics, human like AI, and a perfect multi player system.

Trouble is then you would need the worlds most powerful supercomputer ro run the thing!!
and it would still probably run like a pig....lol

so lets be happy with what we've got at the moment, and as hardware power increases then that will leave more room for improved resources and effects.

morpwr
05-12-2017, 10:56
I do know after getting the new pc up and running with a new sound card it sounds damn good. There are a few cars ive used that could use a sound upgrade. They almost remind of gt. Maybe better balancing of the tire scrub,transmission,brake sounds on many cars but then people would complain that something is too loud now. You cant win either way.lol

Zaskarspants
05-12-2017, 11:00
Have those complaining about the sound in pcars2 tried adjusting the sound mix?
I ask because some are adamant gear whine is missing, it isnt, but it is not that loud. Try turning up car sounds and engine down and you may be happier.

My preferred settings are.

Menu 5
Music 5
Player engine 20
Opponent engine 20
General car 100
tyre 55
collision 100
Track surface 55
Environment 55
Sound effects 80

Brandon Pisz
05-12-2017, 11:00
Lets keep it in perspective.
for an $80 game there is a lot of stuff crammed very tightly, and it all works reasonably well, in most respects.
And across multiple platforms too!

If SMS were to have an unlimited budget, with unlimited resources and unlimited time, then I am sure they would be able to produce the worlds best simulator game with all the fruit of perfect sounds, real to life graphics, human like AI, and a perfect multi player system.

Trouble is then you would need the worlds most powerful supercomputer ro run the thing!!
and it would still probably run like a pig....lol

so lets be happy with what we've got at the moment, and as hardware power increases then that will leave more room for improved resources and effects.

If everyone on the forum just gave up and said "let's just appriciate what we have"... Nothing would ever be improved, they'd probably become super lazy, bugs wouldn't get pointed out we would just have to "appreiciate them"... That's the whole point of these forums, is to point out problems, make suggestions, and ask questions.

RaceNut
05-12-2017, 13:41
I like that S3S offers the gearbox-whine as it's own dedicated audio slider. How else can developers hope to satisfy so many different player-preferences?

mister dog
05-12-2017, 15:31
I like that S3S offers the gearbox-whine as it's own dedicated audio slider. How else can developers hope to satisfy so many different player-preferences?

If you look at the audio sliders in PC2 there's one that affects the transmission volume too (not separately but it's included). I turned it down :).

Edit; what zaskarspants said basically.

Konan
05-12-2017, 15:42
If everyone on the forum just gave up and said "let's just appriciate what we have"... Nothing would ever be improved, they'd probably become super lazy, bugs wouldn't get pointed out we would just have to "appreiciate them"... That's the whole point of these forums, is to point out problems, make suggestions, and ask questions.

All good...if you're willing to accept the answer even if you don't like it...

Plato99
05-12-2017, 16:11
and that bang from the gearbox when changing gears needs to be a bit more subtle.

Have you ever driven a Citroen?

Brandon Pisz
05-12-2017, 19:29
All good...if you're willing to accept the answer even if you don't like it...

I didn't get an answer, thats the thing. That's why I keep reposting this same comment because I never get an answer. I just get hundreds of others' opinions.

mister dog
05-12-2017, 19:40
Have you ever driven a Citroen?

You mean before they break down right? :P

Benja190782
05-12-2017, 19:57
I like to see SMS do something like this: https://youtu.be/vC2XNhJCS0U

And if it means less cars to choose from it's okay imho. I understand that it can't be done with this amount of cars.
But personally I'd rather have 30 amazing cars with incredible details in sound, than 200 cars which can't reach this level of immersion through audio.

Again sound is sooo damn important to make it realistic and immersive as we race.

Brandon Pisz
05-12-2017, 20:14
I like to see SMS do something like this: https://youtu.be/vC2XNhJCS0U

And if it means less cars to choose from it's okay imho. I understand that it can't be done with this amount of cars.
But personally I'd rather have 30 amazing cars with incredible details in sound, than 200 cars which can't reach this level of immersion through audio.

Again sound is sooo damn important to make it realistic and immersive as we race.

Yes! Someone who gets it.

Fight-Test
05-12-2017, 20:23
Yes! Someone who gets it.

I thought this is exactly how pcars did it, even including the sound from different places around the car so when you switch cameras its authentic. I think Greg Hill who is now with iRacing did most of the early recordings for Pcars.

RaceNut
05-12-2017, 20:28
I like to see SMS do something like this: https://youtu.be/vC2XNhJCS0U

And if it means less cars to choose from it's okay imho. I understand that it can't be done with this amount of cars.
But personally I'd rather have 30 amazing cars with incredible details in sound, than 200 cars which can't reach this level of immersion through audio.

Again sound is sooo damn important to make it realistic and immersive as we race.

Exactly! . . . So long as those cars are the ones I want in the game. :p;)

Mahjik
05-12-2017, 20:46
I thought this is exactly how pcars did it, even including the sound from different places around the car so when you switch cameras its authentic.

Yes, this is how it's done for PC as well. However, just like every other developer, it's not possible to get exact recordings for every single car they have in their title. With that, some cars will use engine sounds from another car with a similar engine (i.e. a car with a V8, they may use another V8 engine sound but adjust it a bit).

mister dog
05-12-2017, 22:16
I still think the C7R GTE sounds a bit underwhelming in PC2, we're practicing for a GTE race and I tried it again this evening but didn't like it too much. It misses a lot of bass in the engine note (it's too high pitched), and the transmission sample is mixed in too loud too and takes over.

Hope that car can still get some TLC from the audio guys :). For reference our boy Tommy Milner's onboard here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxOl0b8K6FY

If you can get it to sound like that ingame, I'll be a happy man.

Brandon Pisz
05-12-2017, 22:19
I thought this is exactly how pcars did it, even including the sound from different places around the car so when you switch cameras its authentic. I think Greg Hill who is now with iRacing did most of the early recordings for Pcars.

iRacing is on the same boat with RaceRoom. Both are superior in the sound department, if an iRacing guy made PC1 sounds, he wasn't trying XD

Cheesenium
06-12-2017, 01:41
I think it's totally possible, with the right tools and a proper budget.

It's already possible to get very close to real life with low budgets and old tools so it's only a question of priority/willing.

About the newer GT sounds in Raceroom, it's true that the YouTube sources tend to make them sound "bigger" than they are in real life, but don't we prefer it that way? I mean, modern GT3 sounds can be boring irl ;)


I rather have realism over bombastic unrealistic sounds in a racing game. A lot of real-life race cars aren't as bombastic as quite a handful of games portraying them.

With exception of many vintage race cars that never fail to leave a smile on my face while losing my hearing listening to them in real life. I will never forget how those old Group A, old trans am and that Ferrari 641 sound like in real life. I do not think there is even one game that is remotely close to replicating those sound. However, I do not want an overdone modern race car that sounds like that.

Brandon Pisz
06-12-2017, 01:47
I rather have realism over bombastic unrealistic sounds in a racing game. A lot of real-life race cars aren't as bombastic as quite a handful of games portraying them.

With exception of many vintage race cars that never fail to leave a smile on my face while losing my hearing listening to them in real life. I will never forget how those old Group A, old trans am and that Ferrari 641 sound like in real life. I do not think there is even one game that is remotely close to replicating those sound. However, I do not want an overdone modern race car that sounds like that.

Realism over everything. For sure.

vassalfada
06-12-2017, 05:49
Yes, this is how it's done for PC as well. However, just like every other developer, it's not possible to get exact recordings for every single car they have in their title. With that, some cars will use engine sounds from another car with a similar engine (i.e. a car with a V8, they may use another V8 engine sound but adjust it a bit).

It's indeed possible, just look at Raceroom ;)

Why use another sound (that will always be different in some way) when you can have the real deal?

Bealdor
06-12-2017, 05:52
Why use another sound (that will always be different in some way) when you can have the real deal?

Lack of time and money maybe?

vassalfada
06-12-2017, 05:55
I rather have realism over bombastic unrealistic sounds in a racing game. A lot of real-life race cars aren't as bombastic as quite a handful of games portraying them.

With exception of many vintage race cars that never fail to leave a smile on my face while losing my hearing listening to them in real life. I will never forget how those old Group A, old trans am and that Ferrari 641 sound like in real life. I do not think there is even one game that is remotely close to replicating those sound. However, I do not want an overdone modern race car that sounds like that.


Raceroom is not about overdoing the sounds, even the opposite.

It's just that the modern GT3 cars will always sound a bit more impressive once recorded than in real life (only for externals of course).

And there is no point to tame them in the game, I would just blame the GT3 rules and manufacturers for making quieter and quieter race cars.

Soon, electric or hybrid engines will enter these championships and there won't be any point to make their sound accurate anymore or even add these cars in games :(

vassalfada
06-12-2017, 05:59
Lack of time and money maybe?

Lack of time surely, with such a long list of cars in PCARS 2, one will easily get drawned by the audio tasks, so it's perfectly understandable from this point of view.

Lack of money can be a problem too, but I can't see it being an issue for SMS compared to some others small studios.

But don't get me wrong, the audio work in PCARS 2 deserves all respect, especially the new historic cars, so it's not about who makes the best sounds. I like each interpretations of the sounds from the racing game developers;)

One sure thing, no game has perfect sounds and that's what makes the sound accuracy quest so interesting.

We can compare titles of course but every aspects need to be taken in count as each developer use its own technology and tools, and is limited by various parameters.

jpmmuc
06-12-2017, 09:00
I still think the C7R GTE sounds a bit underwhelming in PC2, we're practicing for a GTE race and I tried it again this evening but didn't like it too much. It misses a lot of bass in the engine note (it's too high pitched), and the transmission sample is mixed in too loud too and takes over.

Hope that car can still get some TLC from the audio guys :). For reference our boy Tommy Milner's onboard here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxOl0b8K6FY

If you can get it to sound like that ingame, I'll be a happy man.

That's an impressive video.
And off topic what me most impressed was the additional information in the back mirror with red and green pointers also the warning of the cars overtaking the driver. This would be a good HUD extension for the PC2 mirror.

DreamsKnight
06-12-2017, 09:39
5.1 user here. a lot of effects, the 5.1 works but the mix is totally wrong. i'll try to adjust like suggested before, I'm used to playing project "workaround" cars 1/2

i don't care if a car hasn't the perfect real engine sound, really who care? but the bad part is HOW engine sound works: no high revs. all the engines sounds like turbo diesel engines: no emotions, no sound going higher and higher. in each game, after a lap, i change gears perfectly just using ears, isa a game in the game for me. in pcars2 is impossibile, i had to look the dash. cars at 10000rpm sounds like the engine of a car stopped at the lights. this is bad for me. in pcars1 sounds are messed up, but gave emotions. not the same now.


by the way, reading each time "resource problem", has become decidedly boring and tiring. i have 25% of cpu used at nordschliefe/storm/night/fullgrid. I thought I had bought a game for my platform, PC, I realized I had bought a game limited by the needs of the consoles in every aspect. I can understand the choice, but it does not make me happy as a buyer.

mister dog
06-12-2017, 09:50
5.1 user here. a lot of effects, the 5.1 works but the mix is totally wrong. i'll try to adjust like suggested before, I'm used to playing project "workaround" cars 1/2

i don't care if a car hasn't the perfect real engine sound, really who care? but the bad part is HOW engine sound works: no high revs. all the engines sounds like turbo diesel engines: no emotions, no sound going higher and higher. in each game, after a lap, i change gears perfectly just using ears, isa a game in the game for me. in pcars2 is impossibile, i had to look the dash. cars at 10000rpm sounds like the engine of a car stopped at the lights. this is bad for me. in pcars1 sounds are messed up, but gave emotions. not the same now.


by the way, reading each time "resource problem", has become decidedly boring and tiring. i have 25% of cpu used at nordschliefe/storm/night/fullgrid. I thought I had bought a game for my platform, PC, I realized I had bought a game limited by the needs of the consoles in every aspect. I can understand the choice, but it does not make me happy as a buyer.

That doesn't sound anything like what I'm experiencing on my 7.1 headphones, so probably an issue in particular with how the sound is translated through your 5.1 speakers indeed. Did other folk with your audio setup mention the same issue already?


That's an impressive video.
And off topic what me most impressed was the additional information in the back mirror with red and green pointers also the warning of the cars overtaking the driver. This would be a good HUD extension for the PC2 mirror.
I wouldn't mind having those arrows on the little LCD screen there ingame, but having it on the mirrors would be very distracting :). The proximity arrows we already have work quite good already IMO.

DreamsKnight
06-12-2017, 10:43
That doesn't sound anything like what I'm experiencing on my 7.1 headphones, so probably an issue in particular with how the sound is translated through your 5.1 speakers indeed. Did other folk with your audio setup mention the same issue already?


have headphones, too. fake 7.1 like the 99% of them, tried. tried in stereo too. same feeling. i had to say i drive a hshifter vtec engine in real life, i play 5 sims and youtube is there.

Brandon Pisz
06-12-2017, 11:09
Someday I hope to be a game dev making/working on these sims. I don't know anything about physics implementation, software programs or anything like that. I think once I learn all that I want to make the most realistic sim ever made. One can dream :)

Daynja
06-12-2017, 12:39
I share the opinion of a few here about making pcars 3+ about a smaller fields of cars (special series racing) rather than trying to compete with Forza or GT by adding lots of unnecessary (and expensive to licence ) road spec cars which barely get touched in multiplayer lobbies for several reasons (boring, sloppy to race etc) Also when it comes to this 24 hour realtime sun and weather cycle and shadows that move in real time while technically excellent, is it really worth the processing power when no one is going to notice anyway.


Who is running 6+ hour races where you will see real weather changes in REAL time? A few single player persons? Certainly nothing online. Again technically marvellous ( real track 3) but all that processing power could be used elsewhere in more immediate areas IMO (sounds int and ext and crash/bodywork dynamics)


So with my opinion said on that matter I would love pcars 3+ to specialise on racing cars only reducing the car mount to allow cpu space to be able to record and animate the audio with newer technology in sound dept, over sun and bad weather cycle technology any day, because at all times the audio is in your face (ears) and nothing beats the utter beauty of a race car cockpit sound if it matches its real life counter part as close as it can. IMO

Mahjik
06-12-2017, 13:16
It's indeed possible, just look at Raceroom ;)

Why use another sound (that will always be different in some way) when you can have the real deal?

I can guarantee you that RR does not have exact sound recordings like the video posted of every single car they release. Just like all devs, they reuse sounds and just shape them a little differently when needed.

Djuvinile
06-12-2017, 13:18
I think the op will only be satisfied when one of the devs says it will all be reworked.. but please dont..
Sound is a very very difficult thing. Getting exact the same sound in a sim cockpit as IRL is simply impossible, thats because all the different frequencies.
(high frequencies travel fast and short, Low travels slower and further) therefore even 2 different people can hear different things from 1 and the same running engine. because no 2 persons hear exactly the same frequencies with their ears. Another point is where is the mic placed? A nice example from last 2 months is the Force india F1 team experimenting with mics on different places of the car.. i can tell you this.. when that mic was attached to the exhaust of a current f1 it sounded a lot better, but only on tv, ive been to several gp's after 2015 and f1 noise has become utter shite (improving a little each year tho)..

Alfisti
06-12-2017, 13:52
I share the opinion of a few here about making pcars 3+ about a smaller fields of cars (special series racing) rather than trying to compete with Forza or GT by adding lots of unnecessary (and expensive to licence ) road spec cars which barely get touched in multiplayer lobbies for several reasons (boring, sloppy to race etc) Also when it comes to this 24 hour realtime sun and weather cycle and shadows that move in real time while technically excellent, is it really worth the processing power when no one is going to notice anyway.


Who is running 6+ hour races where you will see real weather changes in REAL time? A few single player persons? Certainly nothing online. Again technically marvellous ( real track 3) but all that processing power could be used elsewhere in more immediate areas IMO (sounds int and ext and crash/bodywork dynamics)


So with my opinion said on that matter I would love pcars 3+ to specialise on racing cars only reducing the car mount to allow cpu space to be able to record and animate the audio with newer technology in sound dept, over sun and bad weather cycle technology any day, because at all times the audio is in your face (ears) and nothing beats the utter beauty of a race car cockpit sound if it matches its real life counter part as close as it can. IMO

I kind of said as much 6 months before PC2 was released. They went too broad, too big and too complex and actually released it with MORE bugs than PC1 (which is saying something). The timing data, settings retrieval, UI etc are still in need of a ton of work and i'd take a PCARS 2 1/2 that added near zero content, or even took some away, and focussed on the last 10% of refinement needed to create a gold star game.

Alfisti
06-12-2017, 13:52
I share the opinion of a few here about making pcars 3+ about a smaller fields of cars (special series racing) rather than trying to compete with Forza or GT by adding lots of unnecessary (and expensive to licence ) road spec cars which barely get touched in multiplayer lobbies for several reasons (boring, sloppy to race etc) Also when it comes to this 24 hour realtime sun and weather cycle and shadows that move in real time while technically excellent, is it really worth the processing power when no one is going to notice anyway.


Who is running 6+ hour races where you will see real weather changes in REAL time? A few single player persons? Certainly nothing online. Again technically marvellous ( real track 3) but all that processing power could be used elsewhere in more immediate areas IMO (sounds int and ext and crash/bodywork dynamics)


So with my opinion said on that matter I would love pcars 3+ to specialise on racing cars only reducing the car mount to allow cpu space to be able to record and animate the audio with newer technology in sound dept, over sun and bad weather cycle technology any day, because at all times the audio is in your face (ears) and nothing beats the utter beauty of a race car cockpit sound if it matches its real life counter part as close as it can. IMO

I kind of said as much 6 months before PC2 was released. They went too broad, too big and too complex and actually released it with MORE bugs than PC1 (which is saying something). The timing data, settings retrieval, UI etc are still in need of a ton of work and i'd take a PCARS 2 1/2 that added near zero content, or even took some away, and focussed on the last 10% of refinement needed to create a gold star game.

Fight-Test
06-12-2017, 13:56
I use one of these,

https://www.amazon.com/Behringer-302USB-BEHRINGER-XENYX/dp/B005EHILV4

its a usb mixer that plugs into the pc. I have my tablet running into for crew chief audio, and game is on seperate channel to control volume levels on the fly. I also have the outs running to buttkicker and headphones. It allows me to mix the lows, mids and highs and I can really add some grunt to the sounds or make it scream with the highs. I also have a line to plug my phone in so I can take calls using my gaming headset, listen to music from it but mostly used to listen to motorsport news and pod casts. Today when I get home I'll put Midweek Motorsport on and start running laps. For $50 bucks its a nice little piece of kit. If you do streaming they have the 802 which gives you some more channels which could be helpful for broadcast and mixing for videos.

mister dog
06-12-2017, 14:15
I totally oppose scaling down in features because 'people wouldn't notice anyhow'. I wouldn't expand much anymore neither for PC3, but what we do have now is specifically what sets this game apart from the competition. If we want bare bones and a bit more specialised in certain areas, we might as well go back and play AC again, which apart from the driving experience feels quite stale and sterile in general now.

Someone has to innovate and I'm happy SMS took those steps. PC2 is now a great base for future games and they won't have to reinvent the wheel anymore, as we feature pretty much everything of importance already.

RaceNut
06-12-2017, 14:17
I have to wonder if some complaints regarding audio don't involve people using the "Head Phones Mix" with surround setups; it totally muffles the sounds and reduces the audio range. It's a night / day difference with it disabled when using a surround system or Rift VR-HMD.

Fight-Test
06-12-2017, 15:02
I totally oppose scaling down in features because 'people wouldn't notice anyhow'. I wouldn't expand much anymore neither for PC3, but what we do have now is specifically what sets this game apart from the competition. If we want bare bones and a bit more specialised in certain areas, we might as well go back and play AC again, which apart from the driving experience feels quite stale and sterile in general now.

Someone has to innovate and I'm happy SMS took those steps. PC2 is now a great base for future games and they won't have to reinvent the wheel anymore, as we feature pretty much everything of importance already.

Agreed and even though I don't drive road cars they are incredibly important to the sales of this game. I don't think many real life tracks can survive without all the road cars buying track day passes renting space at tracks. SMS did a real good job of getting alot of those popular road/track day cars in the game to give guys a chance to drive these on race tracks they would never get to drive them at. I think the game follows the same trend, its just he way tracks stay alive these days. If its just Motorsport then it becomes just a sports game and greatly reduces its appeal, not to me as I love Motorsport but look how many guys around her don't know anything about Motorsport or racing but love cars. I think iracing already does what the posters above wants and I don't think that really makes it all that much better, actually it has less appeal because less options. I don't see alot of track day car rooms in multiplayer and agree with poster above about that but I do see 1 or 2 multi-class road car rooms every night that are very busy. I think the road cars guys just treat is a track days and not really worried about the races. I'm sure SMS have metrics on this and don't want to waste money on license that are useless so they probably have a good grip on what is wanted/used.

Pete Gaimari
06-12-2017, 15:51
Maybe because track days aren't races. On most tracks you can only pass on certain straights and the car being passed has to wave the faster car by. Might as well run solo offline.

Daynja
06-12-2017, 15:57
I totally oppose scaling down in features because 'people wouldn't notice anyhow'. I wouldn't expand much anymore neither for PC3, but what we do have now is specifically what sets this game apart from the competition. If we want bare bones and a bit more specialised in certain areas, we might as well go back and play AC again, which apart from the driving experience feels quite stale and sterile in general now.

Someone has to innovate and I'm happy SMS took those steps. PC2 is now a great base for future games and they won't have to reinvent the wheel anymore, as we feature pretty much everything of importance already.

I agree that SMS are taking the racing genre to new levels and I love them for it. However is live track really something now that needs its focus when clearly adding it means that other things require sacrificing( even LT 3.0 had to be reduced somewhat due to cpu stress on console). Perhaps in years to come live track a whole new audio processing system and much more realistic damage could happen when console cpus become more powerful, as will PC chipsets but we cant have it all now.

What seems more vital to taking the racing genre to whole new levels?

Real weather that works in realtime, which is great but barely noticeable especially when your racing, or removing that and adding visually stunning crash dynamics or 3d binaural audio and a new process that makes real recording almost sound like the real thing perhaps even distinguishable from the real thing (who knows where it could go) coming out of a speaker.

It seems that SMS have to pick and choose what can be taken to new levels due to the limits of current cpu capability's, and this time they chose Live Track which is wonderful tech in a racing game but for all the CPU its hogging are we getting the best out of it seeing as we dont really see that much of it unless its something directly involved with the car and driver. In Live Tracks case its probably the puddle build up and aquaplaning tech which is ace but such a tiny part of LT 3.0. If far too many CPU cycles are being consumed by the sun moving in real time which as we know is very slow, which in turns causes shadows to be dynamically altered , again utterly slow and unnoticeable in real time or when racing, is it best to put tech into something else more immediate?

DreamsKnight
06-12-2017, 16:20
I agree that SMS are taking the racing genre to new levels and I love them for it. However is live track really something now that needs its focus when clearly adding it means that other things require sacrificing( even LT 3.0 had to be reduced somewhat due to cpu stress on console). Perhaps in years to come live track a whole new audio processing system and much more realistic damage could happen when console cpus become more powerful, as will PC chipsets but we cant have it all now.

What seems more vital to taking the racing genre to whole new levels?

Real weather that works in realtime, which is great but barely noticeable especially when your racing, or removing that and adding visually stunning crash dynamics or 3d binaural audio and a new process that makes real recording almost sound like the real thing perhaps even distinguishable from the real thing (who knows where it could go) coming out of a speaker.

It seems that SMS have to pick and choose what can be taken to new levels due to the limits of current cpu capability's, and this time they chose Live Track which is wonderful tech in a racing game but for all the CPU its hogging are we getting the best out of it seeing as we dont really see that much of it unless its something directly involved with the car and driver. In Live Tracks case its probably the puddle build up and aquaplaning tech which is ace but such a tiny part of LT 3.0. If far too many CPU cycles are being consumed by the sun moving in real time which as we know is very slow, which in turns causes shadows to be dynamically altered , again utterly slow and unnoticeable in real time or when racing, is it best to put tech into something else more immediate?

man, the resource thing about audio is a children's story, come on. :D
here you always find a long line of excuses for things that are simply not as accurate as they should be. or rather, as some of us would like.

Marlborofranz
06-12-2017, 16:23
I agree that SMS are taking the racing genre to new levels and I love them for it. However is live track really something now that needs its focus when clearly adding it means that other things require sacrificing( even LT 3.0 had to be reduced somewhat due to cpu stress on console). Perhaps in years to come live track a whole new audio processing system and much more realistic damage could happen when console cpus become more powerful, as will PC chipsets but we cant have it all now.

What seems more vital to taking the racing genre to whole new levels?

Real weather that works in realtime, which is great but barely noticeable especially when your racing, or removing that and adding visually stunning crash dynamics or 3d binaural audio and a new process that makes real recording almost sound like the real thing perhaps even distinguishable from the real thing (who knows where it could go) coming out of a speaker.

It seems that SMS have to pick and choose what can be taken to new levels due to the limits of current cpu capability's, and this time they chose Live Track which is wonderful tech in a racing game but for all the CPU its hogging are we getting the best out of it seeing as we dont really see that much of it unless its something directly involved with the car and driver.

About Live Track --> Yes, I think so. It's good to have it here because since we're grasping for realism, this is the only direction to go. Many people might not notice a lot of difference, but I do. Knowing that the track is living is stunning already.

About the sounds --> They are pretty much spot on. You can listen to the cars and easily say if it's an Mercedes AMG V8, a Formula car, a retro touring car, a street car V8, a v12 engine or the Audi 5 cylinder engine. The characteristics are pretty much spot on. It's just some subtle elements that are missing. For example in all the videos posted here you can hear clear reverb inside the drivers cabin. Sure, reverb effects are taking CPU processing but the quality of the reverb does not have to be similar to music production. Dirt Rallye has it for example, reverb in the drivers cabin. The quality is OK though it's for sure no music production quality. However it increasing the feeling of you sitting in the car a LOT. And actually with these types of sounds most people are not able to differentiate between high quality reverb effects or a "performance optimized" one. Since we're having brutal, rough race car sounds. Not some pro acoustic guitar player with a 3000 $ guitar sitting in a recording studio with perfect sound design and equipment worth ten thousands of bucks...

And changing the gear box whine to be less repetive (because it is exactly the same for almost every car and always the same pattern). The game just changes in between different gearbox whine samples depending on your RPM, which fakes some variance. But actually after 5 minutes you know the pattern. And once you heared it, you gonna hear it every time. Adding more samples in between different cars so we have variance of course is work, but wouldn't take up any processing power at all. The samples are loaded when loading the race anyway, resting in your RAM memory. And even if you increase the amount of gearbox whine samples for more variance in one particular car, I highly doubt it would suddenly melt your CPU.

And besides that, a lot of games have sound options where you can select the maximum amount of samples being played at once to reduce CPU load, in case you ever need to. Which was never the case for me in the past.

Just a little reverb in the cockpit view, adjustable gearbox whine and some more samples so the gearbox whine doesn't sound that static any longer. That's it. Like I said, the sounds are spot on in my opinion, you can tell which car is being driven mostly by the engine sound. But the effects are missing, especially the ones that make the difference. Just some minor tweaks and you actually feel like you're sitting in a race, rather than listening to (well made!) recordings. It's the final polishing...

mister dog
06-12-2017, 16:23
I love livetrack and changing conditions myself, finally feels like I'm racing on a living and breathing track where each lap you do can turn out different than the ones you did before due to all the variables that are present (weather/season/wind/temperature/sunlight/shadows...). Just like racing is in real life really. Not sure why you'd say its barely noticeable @dayna? If you do time progression x5 or x10 it almost literally hits you in the face :). It would be very difficult for me to return to a game now that doesn't feature this and has these environments that barely change.

It might be a big resource hog on consoles, but to be honest Sony and MS didn't put much effort in with their original PS4/XB1 when they released them. they were bound to be underpowered and not future proof from the start. People bought them in the millions anyhow not realizing they wouldn't even be able to play most games in 1080p, but the blame for that lays solely with Sony/MS, and not with developers that want to push the boundaries of the existing hardware which is actually up to date. On the PC it runs absolutely fine for that matter (at least on mine), smooth frames all round.

Anyhow by the time PC3 is released we'll have better hardware at our disposal once more, hence my preference of not adding too much sparkle yet again, but rather refining the base that we have now and expanding on that. Then it won't be as resource hungry anymore as it was now with totally new tech. The way I see it all the other devs out there have to catch up now and feature their own versions of livetrack and dynamic conditions if they want to stay relevant, it will take them some time too I reckon as they haven't even layed the foundations for that yet and they are lagging behind.

Fight-Test
06-12-2017, 16:34
Maybe because track days aren't races. On most tracks you can only pass on certain straights and the car being passed has to wave the faster car by. Might as well run solo offline.

that is pretty closed minded and Im sure the track days would not agree. The reason they have the rules on track days is because of all the different speed and level drivers as race cars are out there with street cars but they don't have to adhere to on a game so that wouldn't matter. The track day guys in game are mostly the guys who enjoy driving and talking about cars. They aren't concerned with racing each other, just driving together and you can't drive together offline.

Marlborofranz
06-12-2017, 16:37
Anyhow by the time PC3 is released we'll have better hardware at our disposal yet again, hence my preference of not adding too much sparkle yet again, but rather refining the base that we have now and expanding on that. Then it won't be as resource hungry anymore as it was now with totally new tech. The way I see it all the other devs out there have to catch up now and feature their own versions of livetrack and dynamic conditions if they want to stay relevant, it will take them some time too I reckon as they haven't even layed the foundations for that yet and they are lagging behind.

That sounds like a plan. :P Damn consoles, though. I own various consoles myself, but looking at it from a game developers perspective it's a pain in the ass because even if you are technically capable of writing programs and proper physic calculations, you're mostly not able to add every feature you want or would be able to add. The balance is the problem... I wouldn't have problems with SMS saying "look, we made the most realistic physics engine ever, but you gonna need a nuclear plant to power up your computer cooled by 10 gallons of liquid nitrogen because we simulate the each and every nut and bolt as well as it's friction, it's mass, it's momentum, it's change in size under specific temperatures, it's change of solidity under specific conditions, all this using 1000000 calculations per second.". I'd get my nuclear plant for sure. :yes:

Brandon Pisz
06-12-2017, 19:02
I totally oppose scaling down in features because 'people wouldn't notice anyhow'. I wouldn't expand much anymore neither for PC3, but what we do have now is specifically what sets this game apart from the competition. If we want bare bones and a bit more specialised in certain areas, we might as well go back and play AC again, which apart from the driving experience feels quite stale and sterile in general now.

Someone has to innovate and I'm happy SMS took those steps. PC2 is now a great base for future games and they won't have to reinvent the wheel anymore, as we feature pretty much everything of importance already.

Yes but it is falling behind in places like Sounds, Graphics and Multiplayer.

mister dog
06-12-2017, 20:31
Yes but it is falling behind in places like Sounds, Graphics and Multiplayer.
:confused: Great sounds, best graphics in the business (yes I know GTS but not pre baked here so..), and it has multiplayer with a rating system. I'm pretty satisfied already. Yes it needs patching but we'll get there next year to put everything on point.

Edit; sorry didn't see you were on XB1 :p, no clue how that version is to be honest.

Brandon Pisz
06-12-2017, 23:02
:confused: Great sounds, best graphics in the business (yes I know GTS but not pre baked here so..), and it has multiplayer with a rating system. I'm pretty satisfied already. Yes it needs patching but we'll get there next year to put everything on point.

Edit; sorry didn't see you were on XB1 :p, no clue how that version is to be honest.

Graphics, is the overall visuals. Baked or not that's no excuse. Driveclub and GT Sport still dominate the racing franchise graphics wise, iRacing still has the cleanest/most competitive multiplayer (what I meamt by "best") and RaceRoom and iRacing also dominate the racing genre in the sound department. PC2 I feel is one step behind all of them (iRacing, RaceRoom, rFactor2, Automobilista) EXCEPT in physics and ffb.

Brandon Pisz
07-12-2017, 15:21
Just louder transmission whine and a paddle shift compressor in the GTE, Lamborghini Huracan and Audi R8 GT3 race cars.

Zaskarspants
07-12-2017, 15:41
Just louder transmission whine and a paddle shift compressor in the GTE, Lamborghini Huracan and Audi R8 GT3 race cars.

Have you tried increasing car sounds to 100 for increased gearbox whine?
As i said three times now I think, the sound is quite compromised on the xbox, and is much better on the x. You are judging the game very harshly if you think the xbox one version is giving you all the sim can.

RaceNut
07-12-2017, 16:46
Ideally, a separate slider for gearbox sound with increased range would suit the most players. There may be a "medium" point to suit most players but, that doesn't mean it's a "happy medium".:D

Many of the internal car sounds in PC2 are very nice already but, others could do with some enhancement:

- Race cars without soft interiors: Added resonance (Dirt Rally does this very nicely)
- More effective wall reflection effect: very noticeable and effective in Assetto Corsa and rFactor2 imo
- Increased frequency and randomness of backfire / rumbles from race cars with some tuning for better connected feeling to the car (internal and external). Nicely done in some recent AMS audio updates for a few cars / superbly done in Dirt Rally.
- In replays, I really like how AC works with some of the more recent content or Fonsecker's modded sounds; in some cases, I'd rate it above RR / iR and it passes the "listen with eyes closed test".

Still, limitations / compromises are always going to be present in Racing-Sim's - especially where audio is concerned. With some polish / balancing here and there, PC2 audio can be really good - especially with internal audio in VR-surround / positional regard.

Brandon Pisz
07-12-2017, 19:05
Have you tried increasing car sounds to 100 for increased gearbox whine?
As i said three times now I think, the sound is quite compromised on the xbox, and is much better on the x. You are judging the game very harshly if you think the xbox one version is giving you all the sim can.

Right okay but you're not quite understanding what I mean here. What I have said (twice) now, is no matter what audio setting my volume is at, the transmission whine is never loud enough.

Let me ask you this - Have you ever been in ANY GT3 car before? If so, which one? I've been in an Huracan GT3 as well as a McLaren 650S GT3. The Huracan was loud enough idling in the pitlane, when we took off (even with ear plugs and a helmet) I swear I recieved the worst headache while in it. It's louder than you think, the McLaren wasn't as bad but the transmission whine was twice as loud and 10X more annoying. In some cars, like the Nissan GTR GT3 Nismo it surpasses the noise of the engine. Its excruciating. They just need to make it more intense, more... Brutally irritating. Like RaceRoom/IRacing.

nhitrac
08-12-2017, 05:39
I've been in an Huracan GT3 as well as a McLaren 650S GT3.

Question for you... do they have the door slam gear box thump each time you change gears? In PC2 it sounds like someone's constantly slamming a door behind my right ear.

vassalfada
08-12-2017, 09:02
No, it doesn't happen, especially in the last GT3 cars, being all wheel shifted, but you can feel (not hear) the "bang" from exhaust in your back in some cases.

That said, there is a noticeable engine cut/attack when shifting (hard to explain) but nothing to do with the current shifting sound in the game.

For older cars, shifts sound can be loud, especially sequential gearboxes controlled by a stick (touring cars, early GT1 etc).

A volume slider could fix it, or maybe just decreasing the sample volume.

Zaskarspants
08-12-2017, 13:08
Right okay but you're not quite understanding what I mean here. What I have said (twice) now, is no matter what audio setting my volume is at, the transmission whine is never loud enough.

Let me ask you this - Have you ever been in ANY GT3 car before? If so, which one? I've been in an Huracan GT3 as well as a McLaren 650S GT3. The Huracan was loud enough idling in the pitlane, when we took off (even with ear plugs and a helmet) I swear I recieved the worst headache while in it. It's louder than you think, the McLaren wasn't as bad but the transmission whine was twice as loud and 10X more annoying. In some cars, like the Nissan GTR GT3 Nismo it surpasses the noise of the engine. Its excruciating. They just need to make it more intense, more... Brutally irritating. Like RaceRoom/IRacing.

Have you tried reducing all sliders to some low value like 20 and increasing car sounds to 100?

Brandon Pisz
08-12-2017, 13:17
Question for you... do they have the door slam gear box thump each time you change gears? In PC2 it sounds like someone's constantly slamming a door behind my right ear.

There is in the Huracan, not the McLaren. When you shift in the Huracan you can quite literally feel it. Its obnoxious, the McLaren however was more subtle but had a very distinct sound and the G's weren't nearly as heavy as the Huracan when shifting.

Brandon Pisz
08-12-2017, 13:28
Have you tried reducing all sliders to some low value like 20 and increasing car sounds to 100?

Yes, they still aren't loud enough especially in the 650S GT3. When you sit in the 650S GT3, you want to rip your ears out, it sounds good though. Honestly, the 650S GT3 is the most terrifying vehicle I've ever been in. The sound is just brutal inside, that mixed with the sheer fact that you're going over 100km/h makes you want to throw up. But it was an amazing experience, I'll be going to a GT3 race in March over in St.Pete, FL. Maybe I'll get another chance to get inside one.

Zaskarspants
08-12-2017, 13:59
Yes, they still aren't loud enough especially in the 650S GT3. When you sit in the 650S GT3, you want to rip your ears out, it sounds good though. Honestly, the 650S GT3 is the most terrifying vehicle I've ever been in. The sound is just brutal inside, that mixed with the sheer fact that you're going over 100km/h makes you want to throw up. But it was an amazing experience, I'll be going to a GT3 race in March over in St.Pete, FL. Maybe I'll get another chance to get inside one.

Well gt3 are quite noisey, but they sound tame irl compared to many older cars, and are really just a whirr compared to a top fuel car.

Brandon Pisz
08-12-2017, 14:20
Well gt3 are quite noisey, but they sound tame irl compared to many older cars, and are really just a whirr compared to a top fuel car.

Hahah not the 650S. Believe me, you'd $h!t yourself in one of them at even half throttle. It's not tame, from the inside that 650S is a monster.

TopAirspace
08-12-2017, 14:23
Hahah not the 650S. Believe me, you'd $h!t yourself in one of them at even half throttle. It's not tame, from the inside that 650S is a monster.

A Top Fuel car idling is far more terrifying than a 650S GT3 at full noise lol

RaceNut
08-12-2017, 14:49
A Top Fuel car idling is far more terrifying than a 650S GT3 at full noise lol

Yeah, no comparison - apples and bowling-balls. Just standing within a hundred feet of a Top-fuel dragster idling and you can feel the sound-pressure waves hitting you in the chest. :D

Regarding the shift sound in PC2; it should be used where appropriate but, the fact that it serves as a a generic universal shift-sample in many cars gets rather old quickly. In some cases, it really ruins the atmosphere within the car, especially when it just doesn't fit due to not being accurate, matching so many other cars in game, or being outside the audio normalization / sample volume. Again, it seems likely that this is a case where the final audio polish has not yet been applied. Still, I hope for a bit more diversity in shift sound effects overall.

Brandon Pisz
08-12-2017, 14:58
A Top Fuel car idling is far more terrifying than a 650S GT3 at full noise lol

Have you ever been in the 650S GT3 car going over 120km/h? It's one of the most terrifying experiences you'll ever endure in the world of Motorsport imo. The sound of the wind, the engine, transmission whine all going on at the same time while at an unbelievable volume. You won't know until you've done it.

Mahjik
08-12-2017, 15:12
It all depends on what you are used to... If you are used to normal street cars, then jumping into a purpose built race car will seem loud and slightly frightening. If you are used to being in purpose built race cars, then some things are going to seem more tame to you than to others.

Brandon Pisz
08-12-2017, 15:14
It all depends on what you are used to... If you are used to normal street cars, then jumping into a purpose built race car will seem loud and slightly frightening. If you are used to being in purpose built race cars, then some things are going to seem more tame to you than to others.

Makes sense!

Thirty-Four
08-12-2017, 16:39
Iīm a member of an raceteam wich starts in races with some GT3 Cars, and Iīm at every 24H Nürburgring in the Pit Area and at the Track so I know most GT3 Cars from near.

If you compare the in-game-sound with youtube Videos, it seems very simillar, but in real it isnīt !!! The quality of the videos is very less und filtered, not almost that what you can hear at a real racetrack from near! Itīs much more angry and aggressiv than in that videos, the engine, the gearbox, all sounds!

In general the Backfiresound for small and big engines seems to be the same, this ist not realistic, bigger engines generate a bigger deeper "Bang" that sounds more "volume".
Good Exmaple is the M6 GT3, the Sound of Backfire seems like a tunderstorm! Ingame itīs like an Honda Civic with catbag...

In my opinion the Porsche sounds like Gran Turismo 4/5/6, the RUF GT3 in PC1 was perfekt!