PDA

View Full Version : Jan Seyfferth Game vs. Reality



Narrisch
08-12-2017, 13:22
PC2 vs. Reality from Jan Seyfferth. Take it as motivation SMS. This is no bash! I love PC2!
Cannot post links.
https://youtu.be/C8q8l5RaHH8

VelvetTorpedo
08-12-2017, 13:24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8q8l5RaHH8

Markus Ott
08-12-2017, 14:48
Tbh nothing he says is probably new to SMS. Nevertheless a nice series he started there. I hope for a deeper look into pCARS2 he has his new PC ready and his FFB dialed in. He tested AC and pCARS2 on consoles.
Best part is when he is irritated by the slow down penalties for using the track like he is uses to ^^

Markus Ott
13-12-2017, 12:58
Second round. Again unchanged standard setup (but with deactivated penalties as he got annoyed by them), this time on the Nordschleife:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky5wT6nFwcQ

For non german speaking people:
Graphics top
pCARS version of the Nordschleife seems to be narrower than AC and Raceroom
Hatzenbach is the middle ground between AC and Raceroom when it comes to bumpiness, he thinks it's ok
Gear ratios seem to be a bit off (too long)
He misses the topopgraphy of the real track
He misses typical understeer/oversteer behaviour of the car in certain corners, every corner seems to drive the same way
He notes the repeating, monotone trees on the trackside
Realism lacks behind AC and Raceroom in his opinion
He thinks getting penalties in a warm up lap is nonsense
You can make too many faults and the car is still controllable, at least good for a "game"
Thumbs down (again) for the erased lap time for a run off, doesn't motivate him to go on with pCARS

Overall: thumbs down for realism and fun, maybe works as a game but not a sim

Mad Al
13-12-2017, 13:14
As the auto translate is reading as complete bollox, would someone like to summarise in English, thanks.

Sankyo
13-12-2017, 13:36
Realism lacks behind AC and Raceroom in his opinion

Generic statement that doesn't say anything. Which realism?

Markus Ott
13-12-2017, 13:38
Have a look at all the other points he mentions. You may find your answer there.

Sankyo
13-12-2017, 13:43
Have a look at all the other points he mentions. You may find your answer there.
That's just a list of a couple of things he noticed or found negative. How about things he actually found positive or even better than those other games? I'd assume that a realism verdict is based on the whole picture, not just a few differences.
Not that I really care about his opinion, but I always get skin rash when people play the 'realism' card without being very clear about the criteria they use.

Markus Ott
13-12-2017, 13:47
Don't ask me, I am just translating what he says. Ask him on youtube :)

Sankyo
13-12-2017, 13:51
Don't ask me, I am just translating what he says. Ask him on youtube :)
Ah OK so he isn't explicit about it in the video, I thought he was. Thanks for the translation anyway :)

DayGlow
13-12-2017, 13:53
Personally I find the RR version of Nords to feel a lot more narrow compared to PC and AC.

Sankyo
13-12-2017, 13:55
Personally I find the RR version of Nords to feel a lot more narrow compared to PC and AC.
I'm wondering how much of it is down to FOV and camera position. The track is laser-scanned, so the dimensions should be fine.

Peally
13-12-2017, 14:00
I find it odd how some feel the desire to compare games to reality. Must be some sort of pride thing.

Sankyo
13-12-2017, 14:09
I find it odd how some feel the desire to compare games to reality. Must be some sort of pride thing.

In case of a real-world race driver, I can understand somewhat :)

PulpDogg
13-12-2017, 14:15
I'm wondering how much of it is down to FOV and camera position. The track is laser-scanned, so the dimensions should be fine.

He actually questions that in the video, both citing AC/RR and his real life experience as factors.


I find it odd how some feel the desire to compare games to reality. Must be some sort of pride thing.

PC2 is advertised as a simulation, he is a race driver with experience on the Nordschleife - so I can understand him testing if that title "simulation" is deserved or not. In his opinion, PC2 doesn't quite get there.

Then again, the vast majority of PC2 players aren't real race drivers, so I can live with the game being somewhat different than reality.

Markus Ott
13-12-2017, 14:16
I find it odd how some feel the desire to compare games to reality. Must be some sort of pride thing.

Because the meaning of a sim is to get as close as possible to the real thing

Sankyo
13-12-2017, 14:18
He actually questions that in the video, both citing AC/RR and his real life experience as factors.
He questions it being laser-scanned? Or does he just say that it doesn't feel right despite being laser-scanned?

Bealdor
13-12-2017, 14:19
He actually questions that in the video, both citing AC/RR and his real life experience as factors.

Us WMD members have seen the complete rebuild of this track, including scan data. Not sure how you could argue with that...

PulpDogg
13-12-2017, 14:22
He questions it being laser-scanned? Or does he just say that it doesn't feel right despite being laser-scanned?

I'd have to look up the specific section of the video again - but iirc he said that AC / RR had laserscanned tracks, and that maybe PC2 didn't. It was something along those lines.

Keena
13-12-2017, 14:31
Well I still like it. I don't care if its not "realistic"- for me "immersive" is much more important. I know what realistic will mean for me- 90mph into a tree trunk, race over. Restart, 90mph into a tree trunk, race over, rinse and repeat. Immersion any day for me the wannabe race driver with no actual skill ;) Anything to massage my ego into making me believe that yes, I am the next Schumacher and its just age and lack of money/opportunity that means I'm not :eagerness: I know for some its really important and I respect that, I'm just being realistic about my own level. For c40 quid I cant go wrong :)

fostrike
13-12-2017, 14:55
So, a professional race driver who take a GT3 car on Nurburgring with a "standard" setup, nice.

Maurice Boeschen
13-12-2017, 14:58
So, a professional race driver who take a GT3 car on Nurburgring with a "standard" setup, nice.

He did that because he did the same in AC and R3E - just for comparison which game has the best standard setup without tweaking anything.
And he is totally disappointed from pC2 - especially the lap time penalty even when he originally had penaltys turned off and he went off track and got penalised and laptime was deleted, totally "bullshit" he said...

fostrike
13-12-2017, 15:11
But that's the point....
There is no "international standard" setup, so this to me don't mean anything.
I will expect more from a pro driver, like running a similar setup he use in real life for all 3 games and see from there what's what
About the penalty system, we are still comparing a 3 months old game vs a 3 years competitors ?
Jesus, RR got a 3 monitor setup add-on one week ago with the latest patch...

Zaskarspants
13-12-2017, 15:28
He did that because he did the same in AC and R3E - just for comparison which game has the best standard setup without tweaking anything.
And he is totally disappointed from pC2 - especially the lap time penalty even when he originally had penaltys turned off and he went off track and got penalised and laptime was deleted, totally "bullshit" he said...

I have not seen the video, but I am very surprised to hear he is ' totally disappointed ' . This is counter to most peoples experiences and reviews.
I don't know he is so upset about the race director either. So called ' deleted laptimes ' are still visible iirc. It seems harsh to dam the game for that.

justonce68
13-12-2017, 15:49
His seating/driving position seems so unnatural, hes bolt upright, with his chest nearly touching the wheel, he hardly has room to turn the wheel through a full lock. I guess everyone has an opinion.

kofotsjanne
13-12-2017, 15:50
Austin Ogonoski likes pcars2 more than both AC and RR. He is also a real race car driver.

rich1e I
13-12-2017, 15:59
If I remember correctly Mr. Seyfferth first made the PC2 video at Hockenheim and people on his channel asked him to please please please make an AC video too, so it's obvious that quite a number of his fans seem to be more into AC. He's a young driver with a channel and I think he also wants his channel to grow, so it was obvious to me that he wanted to make his fans happy by preferring AC.That's just my impression. Sound and tracks are awesome in AC, that's true, but if he wanted to he could've found a few things that are much better in PC2 imo. Handling and tyre model are much superior for instance. So all in all Mr. Seyfferth has a very biased opinion just to make his fans happy. Just my 2 cents

Mad Al
13-12-2017, 16:01
When he compares the full weather and day night cycle in PC2, AC and R3E, then I'll take it seriously as a valid comparison..

unknwn
13-12-2017, 16:02
Another RL race driver who is not happy with 2 particular cars in pcars2 (which he drives IRL).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-zzF_m-lOE&feature=youtu.be

His comment:

beautiful but still a game not a simulator. BAC mono drives nowhere close to RL, neither does the 650GT3. I sort of gave up after that

kofotsjanne
13-12-2017, 16:03
If I remember correctly Mr. Seyfferth first made the PC2 video at Hockenheim and people on his channel asked him to please please please make an AC video too, so it's obvious that quite a number of his fans seem to be more into AC. He's a young driver with a channel and I think he also wants his channel to grow, so it was obvious to me that he wanted to make his fans happy by preferring AC.That's just my impression. Sound and tracks are awesome in AC, that's true, but if he wanted to he could've found a few things that are much better in PC2 imo. Handling and tyre model are much superior for instance. So all in all Mr. Seyffarth has a very biased opinion just to make his fans happy. Just my 2 cents
Is many of his fans into RR too?

After_Midnight
13-12-2017, 16:11
If I remember correctly Mr. Seyfferth first made the PC2 video at Hockenheim and people on his channel asked him to please please please make an AC video too, so it's obvious that quite a number of his fans seem to be more into AC. He's a young driver with a channel and I think he also wants his channel to grow, so it was obvious to me that he wanted to make his fans happy by preferring AC.That's just my impression. Sound and tracks are awesome in AC, that's true, but if he wanted to he could've found a few things that are much better in PC2 imo. Handling and tyre model are much superior for instance. So all in all Mr. Seyfferth has a very biased opinion just to make his fans happy. Just my 2 cents

Sorry but I can't take you seriously :confused:

binarywarrior
13-12-2017, 16:19
Sims are not plug and play, I cannot even consider reviewers that do no setup work or look in to the game any deeper before making a review. There are several big name you tubers that do this quite often and getting something based on their reviews has left a very bitter taste in my mouth :)

Now whether he is right or wrong is not really relevant as he approached the subject in the wrong manner. No offence to SMS but Pcars 2 does have an awful default setup for most cars. That said it in no way reflects the actual sim as a whole.

Zaskarspants
13-12-2017, 16:20
This thread is futile and is turning into a predictable link war claiming this irl driver said this or that.

I have not played all the contemporary ' top ' sims but I am sure they all have much to offer and that people will make their choices, including the irl drivers.

rosko
13-12-2017, 16:28
I don't know why people are so quick to dismiss his opinion. Chances are he knows what he is talking about & he is not a paid employee like the other drivers. It could well be a setup issue, maybe ffb settings or it just isn't as realistic in his opinion.

Konan
13-12-2017, 16:34
I don't know why people are so quick to dismiss his opinion. Chances are he knows what he is talking about & he is not a paid employee like the other drivers. It could well be a setup issue, maybe ffb settings or it just isn't as realistic in his opinion.

Don't start the "payed employee" thing again

mister dog
13-12-2017, 16:38
One thing that I noticed on a lot of cars is that when the game defaults you on 'loose' setups, many of the cars are twitchy and need some tuning to get the most out of them.

I can't say if this is a general thing, as I tune my cars according to my own preferences, but the way 'default loose' is might be a contributing factor to why many out there feel that certain cars feel odd out of the box.

snakehands
13-12-2017, 16:43
His seating/driving position seems so unnatural, hes bolt upright, with his chest nearly touching the wheel, he hardly has room to turn the wheel through a full lock. I guess everyone has an opinion.

That's how you are in a real GT racing car.

BigFred
13-12-2017, 16:52
Can't remember where I saw this, but isn't this supposed to be part of the game that some of the cars are not too good in the default set up ?

After all, if all the cars were perfectly tuned on running, what would be the point of fiddling with the settings to get an advantage (other than to suit driving style) ?

I like the fact that PCars you get to drive all the cars out of the box. But if they all were brilliant out of the box it would negate the skill and advantage gained in tinkering with the settings.

VelvetTorpedo
13-12-2017, 16:53
His seating/driving position seems so unnatural, hes bolt upright, with his chest nearly touching the wheel, he hardly has room to turn the wheel through a full lock. I guess everyone has an opinion.


That's how you are in a real GT racing car.

247352
247353

it does seem a little weird, but a lot of nascar dudes sit against the wheel too. I think its to help fight arm fatigue and get more turning strength, but i could be mis-remembering
247354
247355

rosko
13-12-2017, 17:23
Don't start the "payed employee" thing again

Its not a thing Konan. It's simply a fact that anyone connected to the game saying it's 'the best' is going to be tainted. Whether one thing is true or not isn't relative the internet is a paradroid bunch to say the least.

Konan
13-12-2017, 17:43
Its not a thing Konan. It's simply a fact that anyone connected to the game saying it's 'the best' is going to be tainted. Whether one thing is true or not isn't relative the internet is a paradroid bunch to say the least.

I agree...if only people would see logic...
Those "employees" were only payed to help develop the game by sharing their expertise on racing...
Saying they are biased is practically saying they suck at what they do for a living...
Now Lewis Hamilton and GTS is another matter IMO (to give an example) according to my (limited) knowledge he hasn't given any input so his name is just used to boost sales...
It's hardly surprising that racers who help develop a game are compensated for it...it's just surprising to me that people accuse them for being biased just for that fact.
If they were they might as well take the money,give somewhat of a feedback and call it quits...instead those "payed employees" are still busy giving their opinions and feedback (good or bad) as we speak...
Call it biased if you like...i call it dedicated...

Gevatter
13-12-2017, 17:51
I agree...if only people would see logic...
Those "employees" were only payed to help develop the game by sharing their expertise on racing...
Saying they are biased is practically saying they suck at what they do for a living...
Now Lewis Hamilton and GTS is another matter IMO (to give an example) according to my (limited) knowledge he hasn't given any input so his name is just used to boost sales...
It's hardly surprising that racers who help develop a game are compensated for it...it's just surprising to me that people accuse them for being biased just for that fact.
If they were they might as well take the money,give somewhat of a feedback and call it quits...instead those "payed employees" are still busy giving their opinions and feedback (good or bad) as we speak...
Call it biased if you like...i call it dedicated...

So how would the ordinary customer differentiate between a race driver who helps develop a game and praises it on the game's website to a race driver who is just the face of the marketing campaign, praising it without giving input? I suppose both are paid for their time? And how would the comsumer ever know that the quote on the game's webpage wasn't paid for as well?

Konan
13-12-2017, 18:05
So how would the ordinary customer differentiate between a race driver who helps develop a game and praises it on the game's website to a race driver who is just the face of the marketing campaign, praising it without giving input? I suppose both are paid for their time? And how would the comsumer ever know that the quote on the game's webpage wasn't paid for as well?

I'll give you an example: do you think McLaren would give a license to release their cars in a game if they weren't accurate?
Would a McLaren test driver risk his job and reputation by giving biased comments?
He says it as he experiences it...at first the car was way off and along with his input it got where it is now : True to life.
Or do you think he got payed to change his mind?
Anyway i know i can't change the way some people think but i gave it a fair shot...(unbiased i might add)
Do with it what you will...at least me and all of WMD/SMS know where the truth lies and can walk around with a clear conscience...

kofotsjanne
13-12-2017, 18:12
I'll give you an example: do you think McLaren would give a license to release their cars in a game if they weren't accurate?
Would a McLaren test driver risk his job and reputation by giving biased comments?
He says it as he experiences it...at first the car was way off and along with his input it got where it is now : True to life.
Or do you think he got payed to change his mind?
Anyway i know i can't change the way some people think but i gave it a fair shot...(unbiased i might add)
Do with it what you will...at least me and all of WMD/SMS know where the truth lies and can walk around with a clear conscience...
Need for Speed: Rivals also have McLaren.

If the McLaren was way off before a test driver had them tweak it, it doesnt speak good for the other cars ingame that didnt get special love from test drivers. Is it possible that a AMG GT3 driver didnt get to test drive the one we have in game and it is off?

Mattze
13-12-2017, 18:12
This kind of review/criticism, as done by Jan Seyfferth, is pure gold to make a game more realistic. I think no developer of SMS (not to mention the sim-racers) has more experience with the AMG GT3 than he does. To smile at his opinion doesn't seem to be very constructive. I've seen both reviews completely. His feedback on Hockenheim was much better than on the Nordschleife, because he was totally pissed-off the penalties/track limits. This has shifted the feedback in a much more negative direction. And that's the crucial part, which shouldn't happen three months after release. The player must be able to understand his or her mistakes. "Random" penalites are toxic to any gameplay. I think the second review has cost SMS some potential buyers. And that's sad, because Project Cars 2 looks like a great game, despite any realism discussion.

Andrew_WOT
13-12-2017, 18:21
So how would the ordinary customer differentiate between a race driver who helps develop a game and praises it on the game's website to a race driver who is just the face of the marketing campaign, praising it without giving input? I suppose both are paid for their time? And how would the comsumer ever know that the quote on the game's webpage wasn't paid for as well?
We still have PCars1 testimonials
https://www.projectcarsgame.com/testimonials.html
Considering the state of the FFB and physics of that title, it's quite an entertaining read today.
And I am sure they all gave their very honest feedback, it's just none of them had proper point of reference when it comes to racing simulation. And on its own even PCars1 was a bombshell.

On the other hand we have unbiased, unaffiliated in any way with the industry racing driver comparing different sims.
For that alone I'd probably be more interested hearing his perspective than all others on official testimonial page, even if I disagree.

Marlborofranz
13-12-2017, 18:23
Ok... at the first glance it looks like he needs publicity. He is on YouTube, he got a channel, he wants it to grow. No one makes videos for YouTube to keep them private so no one can see it. Of course you want to reach people, no matter if for money, for fun or both.
Suspicious at the first glance, but nevermind. I saw this video some days ago and didn't click it because the thumbnail already brags about him being a pro. And I hate such people. There is always someone better but anyway. Start thinking you know everything means to stop improving yourself.

So I never heared of him in a way I remember him as a great driver or pro. Nordschleife is close to where I live and I follow each 24h race every year. That's nothing bad so far.

Some turns are understeery, some oversteery. True, due to the different grip levels of the new and older tarmac patches. However this shouldn't be the absolute cause. I guess elevation changes in combination with The grip variety are responsible for this. The old tarmac is worn out and smooth, but some turns were so dangerous that after many deaths they got rectified, hence new grippy tarmac. Personally I don't feel the tarmac characteristics changing either, to be honest. But how does he dare - as a bragging pro - to say pcars is less realistic while driving default setups? He AT LEAST could have analysed downforce, camber, toe and spring rates with the default setup of AC and judge whether the handling differences in between those two might be related to the different base setups rather than a "bad physics modelling". And if I was a pro, I would copy AC setup to Pcars as good as possible and then test drive, then copy Pcars base setup to AC and test drive, and THEN judge. But he didn't. This way you can find out that if the setups are similar, they maybe behave similar as well?

So it might as well be that his information is complete bullshit. Despite being useless since he doesn't really go Into detail explaining what EXACTLY is off in project cars about realism. The fact that he is a pro - or brags being a pro - is no excuse for this. In fact after him bragging to be a pro I expect at least some detailed information and facts and testing to support his opinion. But he doesn't.

I don't want to say he is wrong. Maybe he is right, but in fact his talk is almost entirely useless and also partially misleading. In my opinion the testing he did is weak, the feedback is not even close enough to be helpful for sms and the remaining critics are actually depending on your own taste. It is also not understandable why he didn't even made a little effort and researched Google on whether nos is laser scanned. If his goal was about giving constructive criticism, then he terribly failed. Not only he was terribly subjective, but also it seems like he didn't really bother to look up facts and go Into detail.
And this is where the shit hits the fan. How can you trust someone's opinion when it's clear that he is more of an entertainer than being actually any helpful? For me personally, seeing people talk and brag like this (no matter whether fanboys or real race car drivers), permanently destroys my trust in them being somewhat credible.

I am pretty sure that the main goal of his video has been reached: publicity and audience for bragging. Positioning him above others. And we're delivering a solid platform for him to do so. It's a pity.

Edit: In fact I use the term "in fact" way to often when being mad about the lack of facts. :)

rosko
13-12-2017, 18:28
Conflicts of interest, see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias doesn't mean they suck just means there is a danger that their opinion may be swayed.

balderz002
13-12-2017, 18:31
One thing to remember here folks. I'm sure different race drivers will have different opinions, like us players do on all the parts of these games. As its all subjective over what you, we, me, them prefer, it doesn't make any of us wrong so to speak.

This young driver might prefer the Nords/amg gt3 combo on AC, yet another driver from his team might prefer pc2 and that combo. Does that make one of them wrong?

Mad Al
13-12-2017, 18:32
So a "professional" get pissed of with the track limits and turns them off... funny, but I would have thought an actual "professional", would have acted more professionally....

kofotsjanne
13-12-2017, 18:32
One thing to remember here folks. I'm sure different race drivers will have different opinions, like us players do on all the parts of these games. As its all subjective over what you, we, me, them prefer, it doesn't make any of us wrong so to speak.

This young driver might prefer the Nords/amg gt3 combo on AC, yet another driver from his team might prefer pc2 and that combo. Does that make one of them wrong?
Yes. And who of them that got it wrong depends on which forum you ask.

Gevatter
13-12-2017, 18:37
I'll give you an example: do you think McLaren would give a license to release their cars in a game if they weren't accurate?
Yes. They are in everything. Need for Speed, Gran Turismo, Asphalt Street Racing, etc. You wouldn't class those games as accurate, would you?


Would a McLaren test driver risk his job and reputation by giving biased comments?
He says it as he experiences it...at first the car was way off and along with his input it got where it is now : True to life.
Or do you think he got payed to change his mind?
That depends entirely on the person. I don't know anything about Chris Goodwin, so I'm not insinuating anything here. He may very well be the real deal, as may Ben Collins be, or Louis Hamiltion for GT Sport, or Barichello for Reiza.
Generally, money has the power to change peoples minds - I'm sure you know which 'paid employee' I'm alluding to, yes?

Look at the Project cars 2 testimonials page on the official website (Cannot post the link, am too new here). How would I as a customer know which of those testimonials are truthful and the drivers real sentiment and which ones are paid marketing? Athletes advertise stuff all the time, and there's nothing wrong with that. Basketballers sell shoes, race car drivers sell cars and racing games. I'm bringing this up because you differentiated above between drivers who deliver input and drivers who are only marketing faces.


Anyway i know i can't change the way some people think but i gave it a fair shot...(unbiased i might add)
Do with it what you will...at least me and all of WMD/SMS know where the truth lies and can walk around with a clear conscience...
That sounds very religious. "I know I cannot show you that the path to truth is the allmighty god, but my desciples and me know that he is exists and guides us all. I do not fear, for after my time on earth I will be with him in heaven!"

Marlborofranz
13-12-2017, 18:41
One thing to remember here folks. I'm sure different race drivers will have different opinions, like us players do on all the parts of these games. As its all subjective over what you, we, me, them prefer, it doesn't make any of us wrong so to speak.

This young driver might prefer the Nords/amg gt3 combo on AC, yet another driver from his team might prefer pc2 and that combo. Does that make one of them wrong?

No that's absolutely fine. But when people have a loose mouth, others expect them to deliver. He brags like hell being a pro driver but summarized none of his critics were underlined with facts or detailed enough to be helpful at all. So after breaking it down, it's just another subjective opinion. And a subjective opinion that is not supported by a single fact, is as worthless as an angry fanboy signing up on this forum just to say sim XYZ is so more realistic than sim ZYX...


Edit: Pcars is not perfect but to improve things we need critics from a person that is credible.

rich1e I
13-12-2017, 18:44
In the AC Nürburgring GP video he drove out of the pits and at T1 he was already like "Aaaahhhhhhh this feels totally right" lol Shut up Mr. Seyfferth! If you understand german and have a tiny little bit of knowledge of people/human beings (or how do you call it in english?) the case should be clear: he wanted to make his fans happy. Anyway, if you don't like PC2 then Mr. Seyfferth's video may be your ultimate proof and nobody will ever be able to convince you of the opposite, so it's gonna be going in circles, just like in the PC2 thread on the AC forums.

Konan
13-12-2017, 18:46
Conflicts of interest, see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias doesn't mean they suck just means there is a danger that their opinion may be swayed.

I know what it means mate...but having a biased opinion means it's not your own so in other words betraying yourself and in conclusion your own work...
Hence my work must suck if i have to give someone else's opinion about it.
That's how i see it anyway...

Marlborofranz
13-12-2017, 19:03
In the AC Nürburgring GP video he drove out of the pits and at T1 he was already like "Aaaahhhhhhh this feels totally right" lol Shut up Mr. Seyfferth! If you understand german and have a tiny little bit of knowledge of people/human beings (or how do you call it in english?) the case should be clear: he wanted to make his fans happy. Anyway, if you don't like PC2, Mr. Seyfferth's video may be your ultimate proof and nobody will ever be able to convince you of the opposite, so it's gonna be going in circles, just like in the PC2 thread on the AC forums.

Thanks! Absolutely true. It's fine, because if there weren't different Sims, not a single developer would try to improve. Still I am upset because in my opinion, when you brag about being a pro to bait clicks, that he delivers facts, does some research, analyse setups, judge pro and cons of each sim. This upsets me, especially because I think a real pro would never put such an subjective opinion on a YT channel...

Edit: this reminds me of real pros like Rallye driver Walter Röhrl. He is a real Pro, behaves like a pro, delivers plain facts. He is test driver for Porsche, but many times doing test drives in other cars. Once he was driving another brand and telling in tv that this car was good. Porsche didn't like it of course, but Walter said that he will never ever talk bad about great cars from other manufacturers just because he us paid by Porsche. This is a person I truly respect and earns to be a pro.

Edit 2: you know what? I talked enough over here, gonna give this guy a chance and drop him a comment and message on YouTube, politely asking him for some facts so at least sms profits from his currently plain subjective opinion.

Andrew_WOT
13-12-2017, 19:13
Thanks! Absolutely true. It's fine, because if there weren't different Sims, not a single developer would try to improve. Still I am upset because in my opinion, when you brag about being a pro to bait clicks, that he delivers facts, does some research, analyse setups, judge pro and cons of each sim. This upsets me, especially because I think a real pro would never put such an subjective opinion on a YT channel...

Edit: this reminds me of real pros like Rallye driver Walter Röhrl. He is a real Pro, behaves like a pro, delivers plain facts. He is test driver for Porsche, but many times doing test drives in other cars. Once he was driving another brand and telling in tv that this car was good. Porsche didn't like it of course, but Walter said that he will never ever talk bad about great cars from other manufacturers just because he us paid by Porsche. This is a person I truly respect and earns to be a pro.

That so reminds me of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBy6XRHPODQ

rich1e I
13-12-2017, 19:14
Thanks! Absolutely true. It's fine, because if there weren't different Sims, not a single developer would try to improve. Still I am upset because in my opinion, when you brag about being a pro to bait clicks, that he delivers facts, does some research, analyse setups, judge pro and cons of each sim. This upsets me, especially because I think a real pro would never put such an subjective opinion on a YT channel...

Yep, he's a young guy and a very bad actor too lol It was so obvious. I absolutely believe he liked the sound and the tracks, two things that AC does really well, but if you want to compare and review two different sims, you need to immerge a little bit deeper instead of scratching the surface. Anyway, it's not even worth to be mentioned imo.

Marlborofranz
13-12-2017, 19:51
Yep, he's a young guy and a very bad actor too lol It was so obvious. I absolutely believe he liked the sound and the tracks, two things that AC does really well, but if you want to compare and review two different sims, you need to immerge a little bit deeper instead of scratching the surface. Anyway, it's not even worth to be mentioned imo.

True again, it's not worth the hassle BUT I still just left him a comment. I doubt he'll deliver anything useful, but who knows. Trying to translate it to English as good as possible:


"@Jan: I'm seriously interested in the details behind your arguments. I regularley drive various simulations and I can understand some of your points. Other things, like the penalties, are more depending on taste. Surely sometimes accegerated, but not related to the pure simulation aspect at all.

In your title you're advertising yourself as pro. I don't want to question this, but this brings up the expectation that your arguments are backed up by facts. This is the least you can do if you want your video to be constructive. At the moment one can barely pull any useful information from this. Why for example do you compare base setups of both games to each other and use it for comparsion of the technical details behind the simulation? I at least would've expected that you try to copy spring and damper rates, toe and camber, brake balance and so on. Comparing the default setups doesn't say anything about the simulation in the background of the game. If I was you, I would have copied as many parameters from the Assetto Corsa default setup over to a custom setup of Project Cars, then compare Pcars using identical setups with Assetto Corsa. The same the opposite way around. THEN, if there are differences in handling, it is most likely related to the simulation and physics running in the background of the game. (If also the car specs are 100% identical)

Your arguments are a bit too "wishy washy", especially since there seems to be a video of you in Assetto Corsa, where you leave the pits and say it feels like the real deal just a couple of meters after. This is not about protecting Project Cars 2. No simulation will ever be exactly like driving a real race car, but I expect from a pro that he underlines his arguments with technical details and fundamental tests. For example it would have taken 5 seconds to google whether the Nordschleife of Project Cars 2 is laser scanned. It would be cool if there is going to be useful feedback rather than wishy-washy-arguments, since then one can bring this up in the Pcars2 forum as suggestion for the devs for upcoming patches. This should be easy for you as real pro race driver."

rich1e I
13-12-2017, 20:48
True again, it's not worth the hassle BUT I still just left him a comment. I doubt he'll deliver anything useful, but who knows. Trying to translate it to English as good as possible:


"@Jan: I'm seriously interested in the details behind your arguments. I regularley drive various simulations and I can understand some of your points. Other things, like the penalties, are more depending on taste. Surely sometimes accegerated, but not related to the pure simulation aspect at all.

In your title you're advertising yourself as pro. I don't want to question this, but this brings up the expectation that your arguments are backed up by facts. This is the least you can do if you want your video to be constructive. At the moment one can barely pull any useful information from this. Why for example do you compare base setups of both games to each other and use it for comparsion of the technical details behind the simulation? I at least would've expected that you try to copy spring and damper rates, toe and camber, brake balance and so on. Comparing the default setups doesn't say anything about the simulation in the background of the game. If I was you, I would have copied as many parameters from the Assetto Corsa default setup over to a custom setup of Project Cars, then compare Pcars using identical setups with Assetto Corsa. The same the opposite way around. THEN, if there are differences in handling, it is most likely related to the simulation and physics running in the background of the game. (If also the car specs are 100% identical)

Your arguments are a bit too "wishy washy", especially since there seems to be a video of you in Assetto Corsa, where you leave the pits and say it feels like the real deal just a couple of meters after. This is not about protecting Project Cars 2. No simulation will ever be exactly like driving a real race car, but I expect from a pro that he underlines his arguments with technical details and fundamental tests. For example it would have taken 5 seconds to google whether the Nordschleife of Project Cars 2 is laser scanned. It would be cool if there is going to be useful feedback rather than wishy-washy-arguments, since then one can bring this up in the Pcars2 forum as suggestion for the devs for upcoming patches. This should be easy for you as real pro race driver."

Wischiwaschi lol You won't get an answer though. The answer would be: "You know I'm just a young guy and race driver who barely has free time, but when I have some I'd like to entertain my fans a bit, just like Nicki Thiim does on his channel and build up a good and solid community to interact with, so don't take it too seriously."

Marlborofranz
13-12-2017, 21:12
Wischiwaschi lol You won't get an answer though. The answer would be: "You know I'm just a young guy and race driver who barely has free time, but when I have some I'd like to entertain my fans a bit, just like Nicki Thiim does on his channel and build up a good and solid community to interact with, so don't take it too seriously."

Fearing the same... BUT maybe we get an answer and then our Wookie King is going to show up and clarify some stuff. (I am afraid that I am somewhat taking the piss by calling Ian Bell like this... But I seriously like him and the efforts he puts into staying in touch with the community.)

But maybe he is straightly heading into the cinemas like I do, star wars tomorrow. I'm glad Chewbacca didn't die. :D

Andrew_WOT
13-12-2017, 21:25
Let's show him what the best sim is, send him your lawyers. :D

Ensi Ferrum
13-12-2017, 21:48
First of all, his name is Jan Seyffarth! Seyffarth, not Seyffert. Just a little detail.


In the AC Nürburgring GP video he drove out of the pits and at T1 he was already like "Aaaahhhhhhh this feels totally right" lol Shut up Mr. Seyfferth! If you understand german and have a tiny little bit of knowledge of people/human beings (or how do you call it in english?) the case should be clear: he wanted to make his fans happy. Anyway, if you don't like PC2 then Mr. Seyfferth's video may be your ultimate proof and nobody will ever be able to convince you of the opposite, so it's gonna be going in circles, just like in the PC2 thread on the AC forums.

He was talking 'bout the cockpit, how does it look in RL and how his impression from his "office" was recreated by Kunos Simulazioni in Asetto Corsa. And he found a little(!!) descrepancy: The ABS-LED on the upper left of the Bosch ECU is red, not orange ;-)
Later on he started to talk 'bout the track and how his RL office behaves on the track. Understeer at turn in and oversteer at turn out with warm tires in T12.

rosko
13-12-2017, 22:30
I know what it means mate...but having a biased opinion means it's not your own so in other words betraying yourself and in conclusion your own work...
Hence my work must suck if i have to give someone else's opinion about it.
That's how i see it anyway...

Its not really about someone else's opinion its about not basing opinions or making decisions with 100% logic & rationality, for example it might just mean you focus on the positives more than you do the negatives when comparing it to something else.
It might just mean when testing 2 things you may give one of those things more effort & time.
Its simply how the brain is wired.
I don't doubt that those guys are being honest when asked to give feedback & be critical but when giving a testimonial on the finished product are they really going to say 'it's really good but i think AC is a bit more realistic' there is just no way they would say this even if they did think that, probably even if you asked they to be honest. They are part of this team who they get along with & may know personally so conflicts of interest. They may not want to upset future employer, so conflicts of interest. Or if you are AC biased fan it may be they got paid to say only nice things. Either way there is just too much doubt.

Ian Bell
13-12-2017, 22:56
Look we had some of our real race drivers (who tell us we're as good as it gets) rip heavily into some of the competition to us privately. One in particular literally shocked at how wrong 'one of your famous sims' was in a certain area of handling. I always told them to not openly abuse or mention the competition in that way. This guy could learn something from that.

You know what I see is he's flooring it on cold tyres, stating Nords isn't scanned and a few other 'oddities'... I wonder if he's aware just how complex the sim is... I suspect he hasn't got his kit set up for us properly. I'm going to challenge him as I think he's wrong :)

hkraft300
13-12-2017, 23:21
Look we had some of our real race drivers (who tell us we're as good as it gets) rip heavily into some of the competition to us privately.

You paid your real race drivers to rip heavily into pc2 until your team gets it right.

Ref: Chris Goodwin article.

Ian Bell
13-12-2017, 23:28
You paid your real race drivers to rip heavily into pc2 until your team gets it right.

Ref: Chris Goodwin article.

Very much so yes. All at WMD got to watch that for years. I do admit though it's easy to get our setup 'wrong' or even load a broken setup because you haven't deleted after a patch etc... I'm convinced it's that and I'll put it to him :)

Also we get so many emails from professionals telling us just how good we are (the best yet etc). People we aren't paying.

Ian Bell
14-12-2017, 00:05
OK I've just gone and looked at his Nordschleife thing. The big thumb down cover for our Nordschleife accuracy is a little bit embarrassing for him (as is the image itself). I mean, we used a scan to 0.5 cm accuracy all around and you don't need to take my word for it. We even used a scanned GP circuit so it would link perfectly...

He should have stuck with 'opinion', you can always get away with that. When you're objectively wrong though...

G17CH
14-12-2017, 00:16
Much respect for the game developers show us details like this..

If only people would spend a few minutes setting it up. This is the best sim for me, and I put a lot of money into my kit, because of PC2.

Most cars and trucks I get into, I have to at least adjust the seat and mirrors.. Not just jump in and go.

Oomph
14-12-2017, 00:32
Very much so yes. All at WMD got to watch that for years. I do admit though it's easy to get our setup 'wrong' or even load a broken setup because you haven't deleted after a patch etc... I'm convinced it's that and I'll put it to him :)

Also we get so many emails from professionals telling us just how good we are (the best yet etc). People we aren't paying.


Why dont SMS get approval from some of these pros and put those reviews up on your website. it would be an interesting read for us and promo for SMS. I personally usually trust users reviews rather than endorsement/testmonials from its creators/publishers etc.

Ian Bell
14-12-2017, 00:42
Why dont SMS get approval from some of these pros and put those reviews up on your website. it would be an interesting read for us and promo for SMS. I personally usually trust users reviews rather than endorsement/testmonials from its creators/publishers etc.

We have thousands of pages of insanely detailed meticulous feedback from the pros we brought in, that pull no punches... Anyone who watched it over the years in WMD knows how 'real' it all is... We should publish those.

Ian Bell
14-12-2017, 00:50
OK it seems even more 'odd' than I initially thought. All of the games he's comparing might actually be using the exact same laser scan data as it seems to have come with the Nordchliefe license. So they are all the same except only one simulates things like - seasons, weather, both general and localised, seamless 24-hour time of day, rain, altitude-based air pressure differences, wind, temperature variations over night and day and moving sun direction...

So he gives that one a big thumbs down :)

TopAirspace
14-12-2017, 01:00
247387

David Slute
14-12-2017, 01:07
I wouldnt get too worked up over his review.
For whats its worth ive been a tester for Raceroom for several yrs and have had the chance to sit in and listen to a few dev/pro driver sessions and the best advice I got from a dev was when working with drivers is this.....

You can put 2 drivers in the same car with the exact same setup and track conditions and they will give you two completely different feedbacks of how the car feels.
They than have to take that info and find a happy medium.
Than factor in tire model data, compound, weather track conditions etc.
In the end everyones perception of how it should feel is gonna be different as theres too many factors like wheels, system setups etc.

TopAirspace
14-12-2017, 01:13
I wouldnt get too worked up over his review.
For whats its worth ive been a tester for Raceroom for several yrs and have had the chance to sit in and listen to a few dev/pro driver sessions and the best advice I got from a dev was when working with drivers is this.....

You can put 2 drivers in the same car with the exact same setup and track conditions and they will give you two completely different feedbacks of how the car feels.
They than have to take that info and find a happy medium.
Than factor in tire model data, compound, weather track conditions etc.
In the end everyones perception of how it should feel is gonna be different as theres too many factors like wheels, system setups etc.

I reckon that pretty much sums it up really

Ian Bell
14-12-2017, 01:59
I wouldnt get too worked up over his review.
For whats its worth ive been a tester for Raceroom for several yrs and have had the chance to sit in and listen to a few dev/pro driver sessions and the best advice I got from a dev was when working with drivers is this.....

You can put 2 drivers in the same car with the exact same setup and track conditions and they will give you two completely different feedbacks of how the car feels.
They than have to take that info and find a happy medium.
Than factor in tire model data, compound, weather track conditions etc.
In the end everyones perception of how it should feel is gonna be different as theres too many factors like wheels, system setups etc.

Yes, but a real driver with a big sad thumbs down face on a youtube video is a first... Never seen it before. I guess it had to come to us first :)

I could take any of his opinion on our handling, it's a very subjective thing, but he's saying our Nord's is inaccurate and that's plain wrong (with a big sad face down thumb)...

Charger
14-12-2017, 02:25
Hahahaha, we did the full Nords on Formula X last night, it ain't inaccurate, we were shredded after, it was so hardcore, done Nord's since the early 00's, seems good to me, although we did turn penalties off as it was really hardcore and I needed a Sandwich ;-)

Andrew_WOT
14-12-2017, 02:28
World scale, FOV, as well as the way FFB communicates the physics, all can influence the perception of track accuracy.

Not really sure why his videos created such a stir. Not like he is a world recognized expert in sims evaluation. Just some console player who also does racing, there are always few of those on each sim forum.
The guy obviously just starting his journey into sim racing, but that doesn't mean he cannot express his opinion. Austin was doing that for years, thanks for helping shutting down his blog, btw.

Ian Bell
14-12-2017, 02:32
Man, I've watched more of it. He's running at about 8-20 FPS. Our physics will never feel as they should at those frames... It's all a bit sad really.

Ian Bell
14-12-2017, 02:34
World scale, FOV, as well as the way FFB communicates the physics, all can influence the perception of track accuracy.

Not really sure why his videos created such a stir. Not like he is a world recognized expert in sims evaluation. Just some console player who also does racing, there are always few of those on each sim forum.
The guy obviously just starting his journey into sim racing, but that doesn't mean he cannot express his opinion. Austin was doing that for years, thanks for helping shutting down his blog, btw.

No one is discussing his 'opinion'. He's stated that our Nordschleife is inaccurate. That's not a subjective thing. It's plain wrong. It's a false statement, not an 'opinion'. My opinion is that the moon is a cube, isn't an 'opinion'.

Charger
14-12-2017, 02:43
Well if he shut his gob he may be better, I have realised talking and racing don't mix, also the world is flat I reckon.

Ian Bell
14-12-2017, 02:46
So when perfecting the track we, iteration by iteration, moved to ensure we were within a couple of millimetres of the point cloud. It worked like this (we had hundreds of these of course):

Andrew_WOT
14-12-2017, 03:13
Man, I've watched more of it. He's running at about 8-20 FPS. Our physics will never feel as they should at those frames... It's all a bit sad really.
May be all he needs is a new PC. :o


Actually the guy is on console, how can you screw up FPS on that?

Ian Bell
14-12-2017, 03:14
May be all he needs is a new PC. :o


Actually the guy is on console, how can you screw up FPS on that?

No clue, we run 60 FPS at Nords in the dry on all consoles... That's very odd indeed. Recording software I guess. How is he running R3E on console though?

Purg
14-12-2017, 03:26
Wondering how much one's opinion of differing sims is dependent on their sim setup - particularly visual setup.

On a flat or 3 monitor setup, I could translate *some* of the feel in some sims and was completely oblivious to the attitude of the car in others. (Oh no, he's going to say it..) it wasn't until I started using VR that I could translate what was happening in the sim and react accordingly in every sim that supported VR.

Same with scale - perhaps his sense of scale is off. At least in PC2 VR, you can modify the scale.. you can make it feel like you're in a matchbox car or an 18 wheeler, I don't know if you can do the same on a flat screen. Perhaps he needs to fiddle with the FOV?

I can't make a direct comparison between PC2 and other sims since I haven't actually loaded another sim since PC2 came out. Waiting for RF2 to update it's GUI so I can actually use it and as far as I know, PC2 and RF2 are the only two sims that support day/night and weather. PC2 spoiled me in that regard.

GTsimms
14-12-2017, 04:10
My opinion, he's got something screwed up with his setup and that makes me put him in the category of, "you cannot be serious!" Some of us know, the effort put into this game. There was even some feedback given by some members at WMD 2. These members drive in RL, too! Who worked somewhere at some point providing feedback to assist.

Unfortunately, the main problem with sim racing is the knowledge of the user.

Narrisch
14-12-2017, 06:14
The second video is very bad advertising. I did not want to press anyone's opinion. This thumb down is very bad! I just wanted to give suggestions for some fine tuning.

Marlborofranz
14-12-2017, 06:44
No clue, we run 60 FPS at Nords in the dry on all consoles... That's very odd indeed. Recording software I guess. How is he running R3E on console though?

Does it mean that 60 fps framerate is needed minimum to achieve 600 Hz physics? The numbers would make sense...

Bealdor
14-12-2017, 06:51
Does it mean that 60 fps framerate is needed minimum to achieve 600 Hz physics? The numbers would make sense...

Physics tick rate and fps are independent from each other.

MerlinC
14-12-2017, 07:02
His seating/driving position seems so unnatural, hes bolt upright, with his chest nearly touching the wheel, he hardly has room to turn the wheel through a full lock. I guess everyone has an opinion.

You might want to review your seating position ;-)

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_seating

MerlinC
14-12-2017, 07:04
So when perfecting the track we, iteration by iteration, moved to ensure we were within a couple of millimetres of the point cloud. It worked like this (we had hundreds of these of course):

what about banking of the track - my understanding from the video is that he misses that some corners are not banked as in reality.

Bealdor
14-12-2017, 07:09
what about banking of the track - my understanding from the video is that he misses that some corners are not banked as in reality.

Banking can't be wrong when you use scan data.

Ian Bell
14-12-2017, 07:12
Banking can't be wrong when you use scan data.

It's spot on to the half centimetre.

PlaysK
14-12-2017, 07:21
Just my 2 cents on game vs reality.
My video is about the nurb on Project Cars 1 I did 2 years ago but you will it’s quite accurate. (even trees locations). Same car, same track.
I tried to match the Under 8 Renault Sport video and camera position.

https://youtu.be/hgYJ86bqV30

justonce68
14-12-2017, 07:25
That's how you are in a real GT racing car.


I beg to differ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi2YRj6gqBA

Keena
14-12-2017, 07:27
^ That transmission whine could do with an increase in volume in game.

Sankyo
14-12-2017, 07:32
Not really sure why his videos created such a stir. Not like he is a world recognized expert in sims evaluation. Just some console player who also does racing, there are always few of those on each sim forum.

He openly advertises himself as a race professional, implying that his opinion of a race sim is important because he knows real-life racing. With that he potentially has more impact on the image of the game than any random game-playing YouTuber.

Invincible
14-12-2017, 07:37
Just my 2 cents on game vs reality.
My video is about the nurb on Project Cars 1 I did 2 years ago but you will it’s quite accurate. (even trees locations). Same car, same track.
I tried to match the Under 8 Renault Sport video and camera position.

https://youtu.be/hgYJ86bqV30

In Project Cars 1, the Nordschleife wasn't even scanned.

Ian Bell
14-12-2017, 07:40
In Project Cars 1, the Nordschleife wasn't even scanned.

It was massively close though. We found that out when we got the scan. It was minor tweaks from there.

Sankyo
14-12-2017, 07:43
It was massively close though. We found that out when we got the scan. It was minor tweaks from there.

I think the feedback/discussion thread of this track was the biggest of all. The discussion about the Carousel banking angle and the final resolution of it is a WMD classic :)

jan.ringas
14-12-2017, 07:43
(...) except only one simulates things like - seasons, weather, both general and localised, seamless 24-hour time of day, rain, altitude-based air pressure differences, wind, temperature variations over night and day and moving sun direction... (...)

This is also one big plus in my point of view (right after the greatly enhanced general driving feel - EDIT: compared to PC1), especially in combination with the Real Weather feature, which unfortunately currently does not work for me and others because it always sets the conditions to clear.

Unfortunately the thread (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58197-Real-weather)for that problem seems to have gotten a bit lost - I really hope you don't mind if I take this current discussion with you about one of the best features of PC2 to point you to that thread? I don't want to hijack this thread, but I (and I think others as well) would really like to have the Real Weather feature working in PC2.


On another note I'd really like to use this post to thank you for the frequency (and the level of details given, e.g. like in this thread about the Nordschleife) of your interactions with us PC2 players.

Ian Bell
14-12-2017, 07:44
This is also one big plus in my point of view (right after the greatly enhanced general driving feel), especially in combination with the Real Weather feature, which unfortunately currently does not work for me and others because it always sets the conditions to clear.

Unfortunately the thread (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58197-Real-weather)for that problem seems to have gotten a bit lost - I really hope you don't mind if I take this current discussion with you about one of the best features of PC2 to point you to that thread? I don't want to hijack this thread, but I (and I think others as well) would really like to have the Real Weather feature working in PC2.


On another note I'd really like to use this post to thank you for the frequency (and the level of details given, e.g. like in this thread about the Nordschleife) of your interactions with us PC2 players.

We're working to improve that in the next patch yes.

jan.ringas
14-12-2017, 07:46
Awesome, thank you very much!

Keena
14-12-2017, 07:46
I genuinely can't understand the fuss. If I was that obsessed about 'realism' id spend the time that I wouldve been playing on my PC going around local businesses negotiating sponsorship deals to pay for an entry into ginetta or something like that. It's about ten grand a year all inclusive for a season in something like that where I live.. the trouble is that I'm not quite as fast as I like to think I am, so an immersive experience on PC does it for me. With that in mind I'm not quite sure why someone would feel the need to go out of their way to spoil the enjoyment of others. It's probably not deliberate but in that case a little more sensitivity might be nice? I like thinking I'm the next Schumacher, but what are the chances of that.. the game does a pretty good job of convincing me so please don't take my suspension of disbelief away by pointing out it's not real. I know it's not but that why I'm playing it. :)

justonce68
14-12-2017, 07:48
You might want to review your seating position ;-)

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_seating

No mine is fine thanks, a bit like this, room for my arms to move freely with a slight bend in elbow although in the supermarket car park searching for a space i do tend to drive in his position :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqmvMIZCkZ4

balderz002
14-12-2017, 08:12
Did someone say he was using a default setup? I don't see why he would? surely he would use his own setup to make it as close to reality for him?

Oh well, just another internet celebrity (who also does a bit of driving - So does Paul Hollywood, and I wouldn't trust what he has to say about anything, bloody bakers) trying to make their name I guess..........

tms
14-12-2017, 08:20
Some of you are in full defense mode :D

He compared all 3 games using the default setup. His audience is probably more on the "casual" side, so I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

mister dog
14-12-2017, 08:30
^ That transmission whine could do with an increase in volume in game.
Nah we still have the same sample all the time, I get annoyed over it and turn down the general car audio slider myself so I hear the engine more :).

Ian Bell
14-12-2017, 08:33
Some of you are in full defense mode :D

He compared all 3 games using the default setup. His audience is probably more on the "casual" side, so I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

He stated that we 'weren't a simulation'. I think it's fair to be defensive on that.

TrueValue
14-12-2017, 08:34
I agree with most of you and also with Ian, about the Nordschleife beeing accurate, but one point he points out should really be addressed in the next patch: The track limits. A lap on the Nordschleife (24h) is about 7-8 minutes long. One mistake and you are into the wall and loose time. I am not the best driver out there, that's for sure, but I never managed to get a perfectly clean, fast lap inside on the Nordschleife, without driving over the lines,at least once, which means all my laps were deleted. It's insanely frustrating. I am not saying there shouldn't be a penalty system at all, but the one we got at the moment is just way to strict.

Keena
14-12-2017, 08:45
Nah we still have the same sample all the time, I get annoyed over it and turn down the general car audio slider myself so I hear the engine more :).

Hmm, I have the general audio at 100% and the engine at 23% and I still cant hear itr properly. Could it be an audio issue my end?

hkraft300
14-12-2017, 08:45
Some of you are in full defense mode :D

He compared all 3 games using the default setup. His audience is probably more on the "casual" side, so I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Default setups in 3 games may be very different, and with the Sims being as accurate as they are, would make a huge difference in the way the cars drive from minor tuning differences. This would greatly impact his experience. His viewers being "on the casual side" would take his word as gospel. If he doesn't gel with one default setup vs another, he'll rate it negatively.

As stated before he's a professional so I don't understand his lack eliminating variables in a testing situation: matching weather and car setup being the glaring omissions. As a professional I'd expect him to know better.

Keena
14-12-2017, 08:47
Default setups in 3 games may be very different, and with the Sims being as accurate as they are, would make a huge difference in the way the cars drive from minor tuning differences. This would greatly impact his experience. His viewers being "on the casual side" would take his word as gospel. If he doesn't gel with one default setup vs another, he'll rate it negatively.

As stated before he's a professional so I don't understand his lack eliminating variables in a testing situation: matching weather and car setup being the glaring omissions. As a professional I'd expect him to know better.

It takes me about an hour to get to grips with the nuances of a new sim- given theres no seat of the pants and all sensory input is all through the ffb or eyeball or an electronic translation in a full motion rig, I'd treat as suspect the verdict of anyone who jumped straight in and said yay or nay..

Marlborofranz
14-12-2017, 08:49
Default setups in 3 games may be very different, and with the Sims being as accurate as they are, would make a huge difference in the way the cars drive from minor tuning differences. This would greatly impact his experience. His viewers being "on the casual side" would take his word as gospel. If he doesn't gel with one default setup vs another, he'll rate it negatively.

As stated before he's a professional so I don't understand his lack eliminating variables in a testing situation: matching weather and car setup being the glaring omissions. As a professional I'd expect him to know better.

The only thing I can guess is that he maybe really is not familiar with gaming a lot, hence not believing that in modern simulations even weather daytime and shadows as well as rubber conditions have a massive impact on the overall feel. I don't know

Ciccina2016
14-12-2017, 09:03
Did the guy reiview also the ffb on the Nurburgring and if yes what he said? Unfortunately I don't speak German.

Zenzic
14-12-2017, 09:13
I don't know the guy and have only watched a few frames just now without audio. To be fair I'm already put off by his flashy and cartoonesque video thumbnails. Just another youtuber more concerned with views and subscribers than content, real life racer or not.

tms
14-12-2017, 09:15
He stated that we 'weren't a simulation'. I think it's fair to be defensive on that.

All he's saying that the other 2 are closer to the real deal with a combination he's very familiar (AMG GT3 on the NS).

Penalty aside (which heavily affected his conclusion) his main criticism where the following two:
1. Track not 100% accurate: Too flat (especially curbs), typography is missing, corners have the same amount of grip
2. Car behavior: Sometimes behaves strange when breaking, too forgiving, gearing ration slightly different, ffb "knocking" (hard to translate :D)

Maybe it's because he's using a Xbox or there's something messed up with the setup but you can't really blame him for that.

He also pointed out a lot of positive things about the game at the beginning (graphic, fun-factor when playing with friends)

wesker6664
14-12-2017, 09:17
Second round. Again unchanged standard setup (but with deactivated penalties as he got annoyed by them), this time on the Nordschleife:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky5wT6nFwcQ


*** pCARS version of the Nordschleife seems to be narrower than AC and Raceroom ***
*** He misses the topopgraphy of the real track ***

Those 2 lines above are directly related to a much too high FOV value. This guy should at least take a few minutes to set up the game correctly before making such comments...

hkraft300
14-12-2017, 09:40
...his main criticism where the following two:
1. Track not 100% accurate: Too flat (especially curbs), typography is missing, corners have the same amount of grip
2. Car behavior: Sometimes behaves strange when breaking, too forgiving, gearing ration slightly different, ffb "knocking" (hard to translate :D)

Maybe it's because he's using a Xbox or there's something messed up with the setup but you can't really blame him for that.


Something being messed up with his setup (fov, ffb, car tuning etc) are things under his control.

When you want to test something, you eliminate variables that can affect the result of the test.

GTsimms
14-12-2017, 09:47
This is also one big plus in my point of view (right after the greatly enhanced general driving feel - EDIT: compared to PC1), especially in combination with the Real Weather feature, which unfortunately currently does not work for me and others because it always sets the conditions to clear.

Unfortunately the thread (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58197-Real-weather)for that problem seems to have gotten a bit lost - I really hope you don't mind if I take this current discussion with you about one of the best features of PC2 to point you to that thread? I don't want to hijack this thread, but I (and I think others as well) would really like to have the Real Weather feature working in PC2.


On another note I'd really like to use this post to thank you for the frequency (and the level of details given, e.g. like in this thread about the Nordschleife) of your interactions with us PC2 players.

Just to give you some info. If the game does not get the current weather data. It will default to clear!