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View Full Version : Multiplayer is fundamentally broken. [or... some don't like the penalties]



DodgeAnon
09-12-2017, 17:12
People are starting to realise that you can rear-end the car in first going into T1 and take the driving standard penalty for a much better chance of winning the race due to the pole sitter rejoining at the back (with their own driving standard penalty and possibly damage also.)

The gains of winning/getting a top 3 position far outweigh the punishment for purposefully crashing out a car in front during T1 and itís beginning to happen more frequently now.

Also, since patch 3.0 the slow down penalties are utterly ridiculous. Not only are they absurdly strict to the point that you have to practically stop on track, but theyíre causing far more wrecks as half the grid every race ends up with slow down penalties and have to literally crawl on track in most cases which now makes it a game of avoiding slow moving traffic as opposed to actual racing.

The multiplayer numbers are dwindling each day on console it seems and the above mentioned is only serving to speed up that process unfortunately.

cpcdem
09-12-2017, 17:18
People are starting to realise that you can rear-end the car in first going into T1 and take the driving standard penalty for a much better chance of winning the race due to the pole sitter rejoining at the back (with their own driving standard penalty and possibly damage also.)


Ah, so that's why some guy was slightly bumping me corner after corner for a whole lap in a race a couple days ago (until I managed to get a good lead)? He was simply trying to literally push me wide out of the track to get a penalty myself? I had not realized it, but now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense! It's getting better and better...

rich1e I
09-12-2017, 17:28
A podium does not outweigh the harm to my safety rank. Safety rank first!

davidt33
09-12-2017, 17:32
You can please some of the people some of the time but not all the people all of the time. (Old saying).

Sankyo
09-12-2017, 17:38
Odd how the game gets blamed for not punishing stupid behaviour that any person even remotely interested in racing for fun and honour would never display.

DodgeAnon
09-12-2017, 19:23
Is it stupid behaviour though if the game itself doesn’t deem it punishable? People are beginning to bend the system now and like I said, you can earn more points from purposefully punting the leader off the track in T1 and winning the race than you would racing clean and finishing the race in your starting position. I can’t really blame people for taking that chance when the game allows it.

Doing it once or twice every now and then doesn’t effect your safety rank a whole lot either, I’ve had multiple S rank players do this to me.

Yes you can argue the sensible thing to do is generally race with higher ranked people and hope for the best, but like I also said, the numbers are decreasing online and it’s near impossible to find high ranked lobbies so you’re practically forced into racing with these types of people as there’s not a lot you can do about it if you’re not inclined to join a competitive racing league.

Sankyo
09-12-2017, 19:53
Is it stupid behaviour though if the game itself doesnít deem it punishable? People are beginning to bend the system now and like I said, you can earn more points from purposefully punting the leader off the track in T1 and winning the race than you would racing clean and finishing the race in your starting position. I canít really blame people for taking that chance when the game allows it.

Punting a car off to win a race is not how racing is done, neither in real life nor in a racing simulation. I find it really odd to think the game is bad for allowing this exploit and the people abusing this exploit are OK. It's not like these people don't know they're doing something that is not allowed at all in real-life racing.

Atak Kat
09-12-2017, 20:06
Tried some online tonight.
10 lobbies.
22 players
all classes.

Sankyo
09-12-2017, 20:12
As for the slow-down penalties, please provide videos if possible of situations where they are unfair or causing problems.

You say that people have to slow down to a crawl to serve a slow-down penalty, but is that really necessary? Can't it be served by showing down less, but for a longer time?

Charger
09-12-2017, 20:41
As for the slow-down penalties, please provide videos if possible of situations where they are unfair or causing problems.

You say that people have to slow down to a crawl to serve a slow-down penalty, but is that really necessary? Can't it be served by showing down less, but for a longer time?

I have tried all sorts of ways to speed up the slow down message even to a point where I now have the message directly below my rear view mirror so I can react immediately and no if you slow too little it will stay there for ages, the only way to get rid of it which still takes too long is to more or less drop speed down sharply to like 50 mph or less. in online this is really dangerous when you have say 4 cars on your rear, it inevitably ends up in a crash.

cpcdem
09-12-2017, 20:52
As for the slow-down penalties, please provide videos if possible of situations where they are unfair or causing problems.


Please believe me, I am not trying to be a smartxxx at all, but honestly I believe that only thing you guys need to do in order to reproduce the problems, is to just set up a multiplayer race 10-15 of you devs/mods together, have penalties enabled and see how it works after patch 3. Obviously do it properly, each one of you should race for the win/better position etc, not just cruise along. I'll be very surprised if you guys still think it's ok after doing that a couple times.

FxUK
09-12-2017, 20:56
As for the slow-down penalties, please provide videos if possible of situations where they are unfair or causing problems.

You say that people have to slow down to a crawl to serve a slow-down penalty, but is that really necessary? Can't it be served by showing down less, but for a longer time?

Not in my experience. I have tried just lifting of the accelerator, holding it under 50% but still slower than usual, crawling around the track.. and still got penalties because I obviously didn't fulfil the warning in sufficient time / distance / unknown variable. The slow down warning is very uninformative and I can never work out if I'm doing it right.. or not. So I lose time from slowing down and a penalty on top, may as well not bother slowing at all, which seems to be what others think too, because race results are full of them lately.

I have also noticed there seems to be a lot more 'side swiping' players off track lately.. maybe trying to force opponents to get slow-downs, maybe not..

bohuggabee
09-12-2017, 21:25
its non stop cheating. they need to take out that stupid driver rating nonsense.

bohuggabee
09-12-2017, 21:30
Not in my experience. I have tried just lifting of the accelerator, holding it under 50% but still slower than usual, crawling around the track.. and still got penalties because I obviously didn't fulfil the warning in sufficient time / distance / unknown variable. The slow down warning is very uninformative and I can never work out if I'm doing it right.. or not. So I lose time from slowing down and a penalty on top, may as well not bother slowing at all, which seems to be what others think too, because race results are full of them lately.

I have also noticed there seems to be a lot more 'side swiping' players off track lately.. maybe trying to force opponents to get slow-downs, maybe not..

idk about you but every car i drive has less acceleration than every one else. even the same cars. no matter how i take a turn, they can just blow right by me.

Charger
10-12-2017, 02:12
idk about you but every car i drive has less acceleration than every one else. even the same cars. no matter how i take a turn, they can just blow right by me.

Cus you is sh.t bruv, get better ;-)

ctzn
10-12-2017, 03:43
its non stop cheating. they need to take out that stupid driver rating nonsense.

How does the rating system have anything to do with "cheating?" Stop being silly.

Edit: I see now he's banned. Good riddance. Thanks mods.

Sankyo
10-12-2017, 19:02
I have tried all sorts of ways to speed up the slow down message even to a point where I now have the message directly below my rear view mirror so I can react immediately and no if you slow too little it will stay there for ages, the only way to get rid of it which still takes too long is to more or less drop speed down sharply to like 50 mph or less. in online this is really dangerous when you have say 4 cars on your rear, it inevitably ends up in a crash.
So the game asks you to slow down, not give back a position, right? Do you always have to slow down a lot like that, or only when having made big track cuts?

rich1e I
10-12-2017, 19:16
That's the question. Does the severity of the slow down depend on how heavy the track limit violation was? I really had some 'light' slow downs which were easily served by lifting and slowing down a bit. It'd really help if someone from SMS dev team could help understand.

Sankyo
10-12-2017, 20:01
That's the question. Does the severity of the slow down depend on how heavy the track limit violation was? I really had some 'light' slow downs which were easily served by lifting and slowing down a bit. It'd really help if someone from SMS dev team could help understand.

For sure the game calculates the time gain and gives a penalty accordingly. But if people report that they cannot serve it by lifting the throttle for a few seconds, we would be talking about big penalties so I would like to see videos of these situations to judge what kind of cuts we're talking about.

cpcdem
10-12-2017, 20:50
For sure the game calculates the time gain and gives a penalty accordingly. But if people report that they cannot serve it by lifting the throttle for a few seconds, we would be talking about big penalties so I would like to see videos of these situations to judge what kind of cuts we're talking about.

I think there are plenty videos in youtube showing such situations, but I suspect if you just watch them, you will say that the behavior is correct and by design. This is why I am saying than you need to test it in person to understand it how much the current system is against racing mentality.

One typical example is Imola, which has large curbs with big run off areas. I am sure every single race driver in the world tries to attack those curbs as much as he can, to minimize his lap time, this is what happens in the real world. What he currently have in game right now, is that you push as much as you can, and let's say 9 out of 10 laps you get a corner right, you're on the limit, maximizing speed while keeping it on track, that's what you're supposed to do. But just one time, you get it very slightly wrong, so go wider that extra 10 cm that trigger the system to recognize a "cut". Do that for example in the last corner, try to push to the limit so you can get a good exit to fight with the guy ahead, go wide just a little bit and you are toast. I just tried and I had to slow down a lot for a couple seconds, but it really doesn't matter if it is one or three seconds, in any case you are completely toast. There's a very long straight ahead, so a slow down even for one second would mean that all cars following you would overtake, till the end of the straight, so instead for fighting for 1st, you're now suddenly down to 11th, due to a very minor off track moment. I know, it was my fault that I got a little bit wide while I was pushing, but did I really deserve to lose 10 positions? No need for a video for that, it's very easy to reproduce it. You will get the warning a couple seconds after the "infraction", while you are accelerating, need to slow down now, everybody behinds passes you, race completely ruined. Similar in other corners, like the 2nd S with the large run off, although not THAT much penalizing, because there's not a long straight ahead.

This is like applying basketball black & white rules to racing. They are not compatible. In basketball, when you have one foot even slightly on a white line, you're considered out of court, end of story, everybody agrees, ball given to the other team. In racing it's not like that, you can't really completely accept 50% on the curbs and punish severely being 51% over the curbs, it does not feel normal or intuitive at all. In absolutely no real life race I've ever watched, there were penalties enforced with such strictness or even remotely close to that. It's something else now, but it certainly is not racing any more, it's another sport called "keep it within the lines" or something like that.

I still understand there must be some limit though, it can't be completely up to the driver to go wherever he likes, because this way we see people going 10 meters of the track and gaining a lot of time. This is why I proposed a red/yellow/green track position things, you get severely penalized only when you go in "red" areas. Or use the current system, but relax it a bit. Ask an immediate lift off the throttle, but for much less time. Or apply a "x warnings per y laps" rule for small infractions before issuing a slow down/penalty. But certainly not what it is right now..and please do a multiplayer race you guys together, it's the only way to realize how bad it is right now. In my opinion of course.

Edit: I am talking about multiplayer, I don't know how much of this applies to offline. In a few test offline races that I tried, the AI is very "careful" not to bump into me when we are close, so I don't think the penalties are that much of a problem. With AI, you can "intimidate" them, block them, even bump them and there's no problem from the game point's of view for doing that, so it turns up not to be a big problem in practice. But in online you can't (or shouldn't...) do that, this is the real thing, and this is where all the problems arise.

chops13
10-12-2017, 21:13
Strict rules are awesome! Good job SMS, all complainers start driving properly.

cpcdem
10-12-2017, 21:52
First video I came across. Listen to what the commentator says at 16:50. No matter if the driver did get a penalty (for possibly going 0.5m wide) at the end or not, does this seem like racing to you if he did?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ennHamE4yJo

M-PowerX
10-12-2017, 22:25
There are bumps and grass to make you slower if you cut the chicane.
Or make the punisment proportional to the time gained, LIKE IT WAS BEFORE PATCH 3.
Thanks in advance.

Ian Bell
11-12-2017, 00:18
First video I came across. Listen to what the commentator says at 16:50. No matter if the driver did get a penalty (for possibly going 0.5m wide) at the end or not, does this seem like racing to you if he did?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ennHamE4yJo

I've done just that. The commentator says 'Ohh, he's ran a bit wide there he might get a penalty for that', and he didn't because he didn't gain time... I don't see what the issue is. Unless you mean something else.

cpcdem
11-12-2017, 00:32
I've done just that. The commentator says 'Ohh, he's ran a bit wide there he might get a penalty for that', and he didn't because he didn't gain time... I don't see what the issue is. Unless you mean something else.

His sentence did not stop there, he continued saying "...and that can be the end of the race for him this early!". That was the 2nd lap I think, the battle had just started, he did go wide a little bit, did not earn anything and could have had his race ruined because of that (if he was >=51% of the curb). I later saw the race till the end, at the end he did get a penalty (time added), but we cannot know for certain if it was for that or some other infraction later. Also for the rest of the video, I must have heard the commentator saying the words "penalty" and "warning" a few dozens of times, around 1/4th of the time he was talking about potential penalties, than anything else happening in the race.

That's my point, with this video I did not try to show right/wrong penalties, just wanted to show you that it's all about them now (edit: and how much they affect races, while they really shouldn't). Either about how to serve them "smartly" without losing too much time (at the end there was almost a crash because of that), or about how to avoid them. But not so much about really racing anymore, as it was pre patch.

I searched for other videos of online races created in the last couple days, most of them I could find had penalties disabled. And that's not a solution either, there were blatant cuts this way. I really think we need something in between of what it was pre-patch and what it is now.

Ian Bell
11-12-2017, 00:34
His sentence did not stop there, he continued saying "...and that can be the end of the race for him this early!". That was the 2nd lap I think, the battle had just started, he did go wide a little bit, did not earn anything and could have had his race ruined because of that (if he was >=51% of the curb). I later saw the race till the end, at the end he did get a penalty (time added), but we cannot know for certain if it was for that or some other infraction later. Also for the rest of the video, I must have heard the commentator saying the words "penalty" and "warning" a few dozens of times, around 1/4th of the time he was talking about potential penalties, than anything else happening in the race.

That's my point, with this video I did not try to show right/wrong penalties, just wanted to show you that it's all about them now. Either about how to serve them "smartly" without losing too much time (at the end there was almost a crash because of that), or about how to avoid them. But not so much about really racing anymore, as it was pre patch.

I searched for other videos of online races created in the last couple days, most of them I could find had penalties disabled. And that's not a solution either, there were blatant cuts this way. I really think we need something in between of what it was pre-patch and what it is now.

But he didn't :) And if he had gained momentum or time but going outside of the track limits then he should have earned a penalty...

cpcdem
11-12-2017, 00:48
But he didn't :) And if he had gained momentum or time but going outside of the track limits then he should have earned a penalty...

Maybe he did, I don't know if it was for this "cut" that he got a penalty or for another reason. In the video we were just shown at the end that he had penalty time added to him (so he lost a place), but we don't know when he was given the penalty. Even if he didn't get it for that particular incident, he would have, if he was another 2-3 cm wider.

But my point is that I think we shouldn't even discussing it at all if there should be a penalty there or not. Tiny "going wide" incidents like this happen 100s of times in real races, a real racing director wouldn't had bothered to even think about this incident, it really is absolutely a non incident in real racing. If it was during qualifying, it could be another story, but for a race this is nothing, especially at this corner. Yes, if he did cut the track, like Verstappen did on Raikonnen in COTA, then absolutely yes, a penalty should be given.

Ian Bell
11-12-2017, 00:56
Maybe he did, I don't know if it was for this "cut" that he got a penalty or for another reason. In the video we were just shown at the end that he had penalty time added to him (so he lost a place), but we don't know when he was given the penalty. Even if he didn't get it for that particular incident, he would have, if he was another 2-3 cm wider.

But my point is that I think we shouldn't even discussing it at all if there should be a penalty there or not. Tiny "going wide" incidents like this happen 100s of times in real races, a real racing director wouldn't had bothered to even think about this incident, it really is absolutely a non incident in real racing. If it was during qualifying, it could be another story, but for a race this is nothing, especially at this corner. Yes, if he did cut the track, like Verstappen did on Raikonnen in COTA, then absolutely yes, a penalty should be given.

So what do you recommend? We remove track limits?

cpcdem
11-12-2017, 01:14
So what do you recommend? We remove track limits?

No, that's not a solution either. I think the track limits themselves are good enough (might need a few adjustments in some places, but that's minor), it's the enforcement of the slow downs/penalties that I think needs to be loosened up a bit (or a lot!). In another post (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58119-Race-Line-Penalties-Track-Limit&p=1439596&viewfull=1#post1439596) I had made some suggestions:

"As for a suggestion on how to implement all this properly, what I think needs to be done is to have off track areas marked as 3 different categories, "red" for places you should never ever position your car at (inner part of chicanes, which would indicate a blatant cut, places like 5-10 meters away of the track in Pouchon, Blanchemont, 130R etc), "green" for off track area where you don't gain any time whatsoever if you go there, and "yellow" for places where you do earn some time but not much. Going to red should give you an instant harsh slowdown penalty, green should not bother you at all and for yellow as other pointed out, allow x incidents every y laps/kms and then issue a penalty. Has something like that been proposed/considered during development? Was it difficult to implement it on practice maybe?"

Guess most of it is not practical to implement at this point, but how about the "x warnings allowed per y laps before slow down/penalty" rule, which other have suggested, too? Also I do not know how the internal game engine distinguishes the severity of each "cut", but I guess there is something like that, so I'd suggest that when the system detects a blatant cut, or someone goes 10m wide, then enforce an instant slow down. But when there's a gain let's say of 0.1 sec (or time actually lost), just completely ignore it during the race (can be kept as it is now for qualifying and time trial). Hope something like that makes sense to you.

Btw, thanks for having this conversation, even though I know (read in the PS4 forum) that right now you are dealing with other pressuring issues as well.

Charger
11-12-2017, 01:44
I've had a few races tonight and adjusted to the penalties as such but what is actually killing it is the close overtaking that happens in the heat of the moment, if you are on a guys ass and he makes a mistake and you HAVE to avoid it you get the penalty for an evasive reaction, same if you are avoiding an accident and have to do a quick run around, it gives you a penalty for avoiding it as the track penalties are set, it doesn't see that you braked, moved out the way and went around the incident, it just sees you cut and you end up worse than if you had actually held your line and ploughed through, yeah you may get damage and you may punt the ones off that have crashed but it seems that it's quicker not to move out the way and get a penalty, people are realising this and pushing people off in the corners to gain a penalty.

This from my point of view is online only as I never play offline and from reports I have heard that the AI don't really do these lines that real players do.

I can live with the track cut limits on 99% of the tracks although there are a few that are bugged but the penalty you get for it kills the online racing to a point where one corner can lose you 3-5 places in an instant, our online races are usually 20+ cars going around in a train, this is counter intuitive to hard racing, sticking offline on 80% may be great I have never tried it but the racers we race with are 110% all the time and don't let up.

Honestly a 3 strike rule would be better, cut a track 3 times in lap should be a DT, cut it the same place 3 times in 3 laps should be a 3 sec penalty or so and do it consistently you get a DQ, you should never force a racer to slow down in a race as it is a recipe for disaster, penalties are usually handed out post race IRL, that I could live with, please look at this as the slowdowns in close online racing are really making it difficult to push hard.

Most of the people I see saying it is OK are the ones that play offline and the ones that are saying it isn't are online, there is a huge difference here, you can't just restart an online race like offline can, especially when you are 30 laps into a 35 lapper with 32 racers who want to push as hard as possible.

Where is my sandwich?

Jesup16
11-12-2017, 02:01
I've had a few races tonight and adjusted to the penalties as such but what is actually killing it is the close overtaking that happens in the heat of the moment, if you are on a guys ass and he makes a mistake and you HAVE to avoid it you get the penalty for an evasive reaction, same if you are avoiding an accident and have to do a quick run around, it gives you a penalty for avoiding it as the track penalties are set, it doesn't see that you braked, moved out the way and went around the incident, it just sees you cut and you end up worse than if you had actually held your line and ploughed through, yeah you may get damage and you may punt the ones off that have crashed but it seems that it's quicker not to move out the way and get a penalty, people are realising this and pushing people off in the corners to gain a penalty.

^ This x100. Safe, heads-up driving is often punished rather than rewarded. I'm better off T-boning or hitting someone rather than to try and avoid contact by going wide, off track, etc...

I think my last 3 races started the same: decent quail... get pushed off in turn 1... then get penalty on top of it... back of pack. So frustrating...

Ian Bell
11-12-2017, 02:02
OK I'm open to us softening the penalties. We can't allow 3 cuts before you get something though as some 'cuts' could amount to saving 10 seconds on a lap... Silverstone after Stow for example.

Colburnnn
11-12-2017, 02:10
I must be the only person out here who likes the new penalties...

The white lines are there for a reason (re track cuts) If you go outside then you are not racing the circuit... If you don't want a pen then brake more.

Rammers will always be there (re punting) best bet is to host a lobby, or tell the lobby host to kick with chat.

TrouserOwner
11-12-2017, 02:15
OK I'm open to us softening the penalties.

Thanks for chiming in Ian. Would you consider making changes to the penalty UI too? The lack of countdown and the slow fade-out don’t help matters, as it pulls all your attention away from what is going on around you, while you wait to be able to hit the throttle again.

Have you tested alternative ways of enforcing the penalty, like perhaps reducing power for a period of time?

Thanks.

cpcdem
11-12-2017, 02:20
OK I'm open to us softening the penalties. We can't allow 3 cuts before you get something though as some 'cuts' could amount to saving 10 seconds on a lap... Silverstone after Stow for example.

Can the code distinguish such severe cuts, to small ones? If yes, then I think a severe cut like that should result to an instant slowdown or penalty (as it is now), while for small of track moments we should be given x warnings before a slowdown or penalty.

Ian Bell
11-12-2017, 02:21
Can the code distinguish such severe cuts, to small ones? If yes, then I think a severe cut like that should result to an instant slowdown or penalty (as it is now), while for small of track moments we should be given x warnings before a slowdown or penalty.

It can yes. We read a delta between 'realistic maximum time' for that small section and the actual time set and apply accordingly.

Charger
11-12-2017, 02:23
I must be the only person out here who likes the new penalties...

The white lines are there for a reason (re track cuts) If you go outside then you are not racing the circuit... If you don't want a pen then brake more.

Rammers will always be there (re punting) best bet is to host a lobby, or tell the lobby host to kick with chat.

It's not the cuts lets us get this straight, cuts are cuts and should be punished OK it has the penalty is implemented.

cpcdem
11-12-2017, 02:24
I must be the only person out here who likes the new penalties...

The white lines are there for a reason (re track cuts) If you go outside then you are not racing the circuit... If you don't want a pen then brake more.

Rammers will always be there (re punting) best bet is to host a lobby, or tell the lobby host to kick with chat.

Nobody says there should be no penalties at all. But loosen them a bit, to be closer to what happens in real life racing.

cpcdem
11-12-2017, 02:30
It can yes. We read a delta between 'realistic maximum time' for that small section and the actual time set and apply accordingly.

Sounds good, so I think it is sensible to implement it like that, allow x number of mild going wide moments only. For blatant cuts, the penalty should remain harsh I think, provided of course that the detection works reliably, but I guess it does.

Btw, how about making the "x" in "x offs before penalty" an option? So the lobby owner can set that to a number he thinks is sensible for the given track? For offline races I guess it's completely up to you to decide this number.

Ian Bell
11-12-2017, 02:31
Sounds good, so I think it is sensible to implement it like that, allow x number of mild going wide moments only. For blatant cuts, the penalty should remain harsh I think, provided of course that the detection works reliably, but I guess it does.

Btw, how about making the "x" in "x offs before penalty" an option? So the lobby owner can set that to a number he thinks is sensible for the given track? For offline races I guess it's completely up to you to decide this number.

OK I'll open an internal dialogue on us easing off the punishment a bit.

Charger
11-12-2017, 02:31
OK I'm open to us softening the penalties. We can't allow 3 cuts before you get something though as some 'cuts' could amount to saving 10 seconds on a lap... Silverstone after Stow for example.

Ian, it was off the top of my head there, obviously if we cut a whole chicane the game will say you cut X seconds which is impossible and give you a DT or severe time penalty proportional at least to what the game says you earned, what we are talking about here is continual extends that earn you say .3 secs and if you get 3 in 3 laps you get at least maybe 3 secs for it, alternatively multiple cuts in different corners on the same lap earn you the same, I find that most cuts for people online are on the same corner when pushing hard, it's not a cut per se but an extend needed to stay competitive in the heat of the moment.

Cuts in my opinion are not the problem as if you are in front or behind cuts are optional, extends are sometimes unavoidable ;-)

Ian Bell
11-12-2017, 02:35
Ian, it was off the top of my head there, obviously if we cut a whole chicane the game will say you cut X seconds which is impossible and give you a DT or severe time penalty proportional at least to what the game says you earned, what we are talking about here is continual extends that earn you say .3 secs and if you get 3 in 3 laps you get at least maybe 3 secs for it, alternatively multiple cuts in different corners on the same lap earn you the same, I find that most cuts for people online are on the same corner when pushing hard, it's not a cut per se but an extend needed to stay competitive in the heat of the moment.

Cuts in my opinion are not the problem as if you are in front or behind cuts are optional, extends are sometimes unavoidable ;-)

You've no idea how much logic processing we're already running here in so many areas. That is great news though as it means we can easily tweak the parameters based on user feedback. I think we'll ease the punishment a little for the next patch and see how things go.

cpcdem
11-12-2017, 02:35
OK I'll open an internal dialogue on us easing off the punishment a bit.

Thank you!

Colburnnn
11-12-2017, 02:39
Nobody says there should be no penalties at all. But loosen them a bit, to be closer to what happens in real life racing.

F1 (game) has a very good penalty system imo. If you run wide/cut/extend a few times you get a warning(s) do it anymore and you get a time penalty.

I think the slow downs cause more trouble than they are worth. Just add 5 seconds or something on your finishing time per 'cut' that way you can carry on without the performance of slow downs and still get fair results.

Contact penalties I have no answer for as Mr Bell has already said the game can't detect who caused it.

Ian Bell
11-12-2017, 02:42
F1 (game) has a very good penalty system imo. If you run wide/cut/extend a few times you get a warning(s) do it anymore and you get a time penalty.

I think the slow downs cause more trouble than they are worth. Just add 5 seconds or something on your finishing time per 'cut' that way you can carry on without the performance of slow downs and still get fair results.

Contact penalties I have no answer for as Mr Bell has already said the game can't detect who caused it.

Indeed, when real race stewards with multiple camera replays often get it wrong (F1 anyone?) there's no way we can always be correct in real time using live logic.

cpcdem
11-12-2017, 02:43
F1 (game) has a very good penalty system imo. If you run wide/cut/extend a few times you get a warning(s) do it anymore and you get a time penalty.


That's exactly most people's suggestion here also I think :)

Charger
11-12-2017, 02:44
You've no idea how much logic processing we're already running here in so many areas. That is great news though as it means we can easily tweak the parameters based on user feedback. I think we'll ease the punishment a little for the next patch and see how things go.

Ian, I appreciate the feedback and I do not know the logic but using my brain power logic it makes more sense to me to not make a racer slow down, give them a penalty instantly or accumulate it over time seems better.

I know it's not just pressing a button but I know you guys know your shit and can work around it, don't get me wrong and without being a sycophant I do enjoy this game a lot, all games have issues but with the feedback we get from SMS it's a winner.

It has expanded our community so much in the last couple of months it's scary, the game has love, just this last thing was a step back.

Sandwich ;-)

FxUK
11-12-2017, 02:46
You've no idea how much logic processing we're already running here in so many areas. That is great news though as it means we can easily tweak the parameters based on user feedback. I think we'll ease the punishment a little for the next patch and see how things go.

For me, its not so much the penalties as it is the UI. I don't find the slow down warning intuitive. Obviously it means slow down, lol, but by how much, for how long, to what speed?

Improvements to that would help, a lot. The 'give back position' notice has a timer, I think this one should too, but it would also be nice to know when you are fulfilling the slowdown, such as by changing the notice to a different color. On many occasions I have slowed down, but clearly not enough, and still ended up with a penalty on top of the time I lost whilst crawling around the track.

Mind you, slowing down in a race is not ideal to begin with.

Charger
11-12-2017, 02:47
Indeed, when real race stewards with multiple camera replays often get it wrong (F1 anyone?) there's no way we can always be correct in real time using live logic.

To be honest the contact penalties seem OK, so someone brakes hard I hit them, my fault should have braked and anticipated it, touch them in a corner, my fault should have left space, 50/50 mostly, no problems there IMHO.

Ian Bell
11-12-2017, 02:58
That's exactly most people's suggestion here also I think :)

No, we can't allow multiple wides/cuts/extends before a 'warning' and only later a time penalty, as the diligent will quickly work out just what they can get away with and use it. It's just a case of moving the bar...

Herege
11-12-2017, 03:03
Instead of being +-50% of the car at the edge of the track, why not just be 2 wheels in contact with the track?

Another example that hits almost everyone running on this track is the chicane to the right in the middle of two houses corners in BANNOCHBRAE ROAD CIRCUIT that are made at high speed usually.

Charger
11-12-2017, 03:15
No, we can't allow multiple wides/cuts/extends before a 'warning' and only later a time penalty, as the diligent will quickly work out just what they can get away with and use it. It's just a case of moving the bar...

It's such a can of worms, could it be that if you get a better time per corner based on a valid TT time or race time that did it without cutting or extending, if the fastest racer did it without a penalty then it stands to reason if you can't then you get a penalty if you have actually cut or extended.

Charger
11-12-2017, 03:19
Instead of being +-50% of the car at the edge of the track, why not just be 2 wheels in contact with the track?

Another example that hits almost everyone running on this track is the chicane to the right in the middle of two houses corners in BANNOCHBRAE ROAD CIRCUIT that are made at high speed usually.

You are missing the point, it isn't the track limits, it's the amount you get for it and how to get rid of it, the limits are OK, just don't run wide but if you do should be you be hammered as much as you are now, let's not mix this up.

Colburnnn
11-12-2017, 03:55
No, we can't allow multiple wides/cuts/extends before a 'warning' and only later a time penalty, as the diligent will quickly work out just what they can get away with and use it. It's just a case of moving the bar...

Exactly, the warning comes on the very first cut/extend. Do it too much (I dunno 2/3 times for example) 3 sec pen. Keep doing it (DT) Keeeeeep doing it (DQ)

Ian Bell
11-12-2017, 04:21
Exactly, the warning comes on the very first cut/extend. Do it too much (I dunno 2/3 times for example) 3 sec pen. Keep doing it (DT) Keeeeeep doing it (DQ)

So you gain 10 seconds for your first cut and get 'a warning' and you do it again for your second cut and get 'a warning' then everyone savvy enough will take those 'allowed' cuts and online will be a farce.

Charger
11-12-2017, 04:36
I don't think he was referring to chicanes like Monza to be fair, just big cuts that are well outside the limits.

Ian Bell
11-12-2017, 04:38
I don't think he was referring to chicanes like Monza to be fair, just big cuts that are well outside the limits.

I think we're mostly fine on our cut logic (maybe one or two areas that aren't detecting properly) but I think we're probably penalising these cuts excessively, so a gentle mitigation in that area should make more people more happy. Which is what we want.

Herege
11-12-2017, 07:56
From the supposed limit that I speak, and that I gave the track as an example, it is a limit in my understanding as a player. The limit at this point should be revised in my opinion. The degree of penalty will probably be another situation. We have to climb the sidewalk, and this situation has already been referred, as I recall. In that place we can not run wide, if we fail a few centimeters, we hit the building(s), and it makes no sense to be penalized in that precise place because it is practically impossible to cheating there.

mister dog
11-12-2017, 09:05
I think we're mostly fine on our cut logic (maybe one or two areas that aren't detecting properly) but I think we're probably penalising these cuts excessively, so a gentle mitigation in that area should make more people more happy. Which is what we want.
Most of us would be happy if the system differentiates between a real cut (which actually gains you time), and going wide or making an excursion where you already lose time. In the second instance there shouldn't be any additional slow down penalty preferably, and it seems that sneaked in with 1.3 somehow.

Probably stating the obvious but just to make sure :).

Sankyo
11-12-2017, 09:19
Instead of being +-50% of the car at the edge of the track, why not just be 2 wheels in contact with the track?

That's exactly how the system is: 2 wheels inside the white lines, unless you're on kerbs as then it's a bit more relaxed and you need to have 50% of the car on the track, which includes the kerbs.

OddTimer
11-12-2017, 11:03
for me, just keep it as is!

cpcdem
11-12-2017, 12:38
So you gain 10 seconds for your first cut and get 'a warning' and you do it again for your second cut and get 'a warning' then everyone savvy enough will take those 'allowed' cuts and online will be a farce.

If you gain 10 seconds (or even 1 or 2) by cutting even once, then it should be an instant big time penalty, or a very long slowdown as it is now, although I agree with others that an instant penalty is better. This is good enough already.

But what we are focusing on is those tiny little off track moments, where you may gain 0.1 of a second, or nothing, or even lose time due to going wide. In this case there should be not a warning at all during the race, or at least make it a warning also and if you do a few times then use something more excessive.

This is why I asked if the code distinguishes between small going wide moments (tiny or no time really gained) cuts and blatant cuts (time actually gained). If the only thing you will do is to just shorten the throttle lift off time for small going wide moments (which are completely normal in real life racing), then I don't think this will really improve the situation we have now. In my opinion, small going wide moments, where time is not gained, should not be penalized at all. For going 5 meters wide or cutting chicanes, make the system even harsher to what it is already now. But it's the small off track moments that cause all the frustration now.

FxUK
11-12-2017, 14:02
It can yes. We read a delta between 'realistic maximum time' for that small section and the actual time set and apply accordingly.

I'm wondering if perhaps the 'small section' is too small?

Just my train of thought...

I run wide on a corner and it decides that within a 1 meter section, I deserve a penalty, regardless of what happens next.
However, using the same example, within say a larger 4 meter section, I went wide (gained milliseconds) within the first meter, then slowed down / lifted to correct my position over the next 2/3 meters, in doing so, lost time overall.

If the test section is too small, it wouldn't see that correction and overall loss of time, instead only seeing the first meter where I gained a bit (perhaps)

Edit: Also, further thinking is.. sometimes it seems the slow down notice is delayed and therefore only begins to 'monitor' your slow down once its visible (if that's how it works) in which case, any attempt to rectify it before the slow down is shown, is in vain.

rich1e I
11-12-2017, 16:23
Not sure if I fully understood, but as Ian Bell said the game already calculates the time gained and give slow downs based on that. I understand the frustration in a 20+ cars lobby where everyone is fighting hard to gain/not lose positions, in the heat of the battle you suddenly have to slow down and lose 4 or 5 positions, but isn't it the same for everyone? Also, I think the problem is the perception. I honestly don't think you get a huge penalty where you almost have to stop on the track until the slow down message disappears if the time gained is only 0.1 seconds. It might be a little bit more. I think that's why the mods keep asking for videos as evidence because maybe what you call a tiny little off track excursion is a gain of 0.5+ seconds.

cpcdem
11-12-2017, 16:47
Not sure if I fully understood, but as Ian Bell said the game already calculates the time gained and give slow downs based on that. I understand the frustration in a 20+ cars lobby where everyone is fighting hard to gain/not lose positions, in the heat of the battle you suddenly have to slow down and lose 4 or 5 positions, but isn't it the same for everyone? Also, I think the problem is the perception. I honestly don't think you get a huge penalty where you almost have to stop on the track until the slow down message disappears if the time gained is only 0.1 seconds. It might be a little bit more. I think that's why the mods keep asking for videos as evidence because maybe what you call a tiny little off track excursion is a gain of 0.5+ seconds.

No, you indeed get a penalty (or slowdown) even for 0.1 sec or even for when you lose time. Not always, but if it happens even just once in a lap, it's enough to ruin the race.

And yes, it is the same for everyone (well, apart from the AI, as other people have pointed out :)), so nobody says it is an unfair system, at least not in online races. The problem is that it has ruined the racing experience itself, it is now all about penalty hunting, just making sure all the time you don't go wide one bit and more or less forget about really pushing, fighting and racing. Maybe not always, but for me at least this is how it's mostly been since patch 3. If those rules/penalties were applied in any real life race, most probably everybody would be completely disqualified after 10-20 laps. And I'm saying this literally, just watch carefully in tv any race you like.

fostrike
11-12-2017, 16:56
As I said in another post, the strict penalty system as it is right now is fine to me, just avoid the actual random slowdown.
Give the calculate time penalty at the end of the lap and let the race go on.
It will be safer for sure

rich1e I
11-12-2017, 17:21
No, you indeed get a penalty (or slowdown) even for 0.1 sec or even for when you lose time. Not always, but if it happens even just once in a lap, it's enough to ruin the race.

And yes, it is the same for everyone (well, apart from the AI, as other people have pointed out :)), so nobody says it is an unfair system, at least not in online races. The problem is that it has ruined the racing experience itself, it is now all about penalty hunting, just making sure all the time you don't go wide one bit and more or less forget about really pushing, fighting and racing. Maybe not always, but for me at least this is how it's mostly been since patch 3. If those rules/penalties were applied in any real life race, most probably everybody would be completely disqualified after 10-20 laps. And I'm saying this literally, just watch carefully in tv any race you like.

I've actually watched a lot of RL races and track limits were always mentioned. Drivers were asked after the race how they could just bin the lead by extending too much knowing it always will be penalized etc. One exception was a race at COTA where everyone was allowed to run incredibly wide and basically redefined the track --> https://www.motorsport.com/imsa/news/track-limits-at-austin-where-is-the-line/ This was a huge controversy.

Before the patch slow downs were a joke. I was in a race at COTA in GT4s and P3 was able to catch up by cutting the hell out of the track, took me out and took 2nd place, so it definitely wasn't fine before the patch. Racing is about getting around the track as fast as you can. We have rules, racing etiquette and everything and we have track limits, and if you gain an advantage by leaving the track you have to slow down and give the time gained back. I still haven't had a penalty where I had to stop on the track to serve the penalty. If this is the case, then yes, the current penalty system is broken, but if you gained more time than you're prepared to admit, then I think it's legit. If they find a better way to serve a penalty then I hope they'll implement it because I can understand the point in your 20+ cars lobbies as I said earlier.

cpcdem
11-12-2017, 17:36
I've actually watched a lot of RL races and track limits were always mentioned. Drivers were asked after the race how they could just bin the lead by extending too much knowing it always will be penalized etc. One exception was a race at COTA where everyone was allowed to run incredibly wide and basically redefined the track --> https://www.motorsport.com/imsa/news/track-limits-at-austin-where-is-the-line/ This was a huge controversy.

Hey, the "off track moments" we are discussing have absolutely nothing to do with what is shown in this photo! What this photo shows is completely shameless off track driving! We're just talking here about going a couple times half a meter wide :)



Before the patch slow downs where a joke. I was in a race at COTA in GT4s and P3 was able to catch up by cutting the hell out of the track, took me out and took 2nd place, so it definitely wasn't fine before the patch. Racing is about getting around the track as fast as you can. We have rules, racing etiquette and everything and we have track limits, and if you gain an advantage by leaving the track you have to slow down and give the time gained back. I still haven't had a penalty where I had to stop on the track to serve the penalty. If this is the case, then yes, the current penalty system is broken, but if you gained more time than you're prepared to admit, then I think it's legit. If they find a better way to serve a penalty then I hope they'll implement it because I can understand the point in your 20+ cars lobbies as I said earlier.

Yes, I agree, it needed to be improved. I know other people disagree, but I was also seeing shameful cuts, for example in the Azure circuit, some people were completely cutting the first corner or the chicane after the tunnel, gaining whole seconds through that and were getting away with it, by braking for the next corner. So I absolutely agree this needed fixing, but it has gone in the other extreme now, you are getting penalized for a slight going wide moments which are absolutely normal in real life racing. This is why I was asking how much the game can distinguish complete cuts to offline moments. If it does, I would penalize blatant cuts even more than what is done now. But short offline moments, do not care about them (in race conditions), or at most give a penalty only after x number of warnings.(edit: I realize I said the exact same thing a couple posts ago. I need some more sleep!)

mister dog
11-12-2017, 17:38
As I said in another post, the strict penalty system as it is right now is fine to me, just avoid the actual random slowdown.
Give the calculate time penalty at the end of the lap and let the race go on.
It will be safer for sure
You'll still end up with 'penalty calculating' on everyone involved to decide the finishing spots. That's not what racing is about, and it's the opposite of fun.

Jesup16
11-12-2017, 18:56
This is nit-picking, but some corners do need to have the boundaries reconsidered. I'm specifically talking about corners than have excess runoff. Example: Turn 1 at Watkins Glen, final corner at Imola, etc.

As I understand it, the current system in place requires the car to have 2 wheels inside the white line. However, in the case of Watkins Glen turn 1, there's enough "curbing" to fit an entire car on and most real-life races allow the drivers to use this all of this curbing.

It's less realistic (and super frustrating) to give a penalty for using all the curbing. You'll find this to be the case at many modern F1 circuits... as the extended curbing is part of the safety reg's.

I don't have the answer to this... just stating something I think needs considering.

beatrunner
11-12-2017, 20:50
if i could i'd change the title to "multiplayer is fundamentally awesome": thanks to the strict penalties and human nature (there are still players who don't slow down) i've had a wonderful suprise just recently: intense race, was 2nd place all the time, fighting for p1, mandatory pitstop, crew decided (without me telling them to do so) they want check motor-electronics, p1 also at the pits but was able to leave way earlier (due to my f... crew)...

i finished as p2 and was angry about pit crew screwing up my (for sure possible) win.

and voila: p1 was one of the "abusers" and had a +30 seconds penalty...and guess who won?

another good example of the penalty system working pretty good for clean racers like me:

- watkins glen
- fighting again for p1 / p3 right behind me
- in lap 3 p1 in front of me went full car over the lines on the left
- p3 behind me too
- i went only a bit wide with leftside of car
- all must have slow down warning
- i did as quick as possible - as the only one
- p1 went away / p3 overtook me without slowing down
- my warning went away quickly, can go fullspeed on the straight
- the two were still "slowing down" on the straight and loosing all there advantage they got by not following the race directors order

so - this IS a fair system. i'd like SMS to just keep it as strict as it is now - with a few adjustments where needed (no penaltie when just touching bit gras without gaining anything .... )

g33k hack3rs
11-12-2017, 21:16
Most of the league races I run is without penalties so I can't say that the penalty system has been very intrusive to me. Random races that I setup locally with the AI is completely different. With penalties on it becomes very frustrating and it seems unable to really identify when an advantage has been gained. I've tried slowing down right after the cut not to be issued anything and that doesn't help at all. No indication what speed and duration is needed to resolve the issue. I'm almost of the opinion that the overall gain by cuts should be calculated and added over the duration of the race and then multiplied by a factor at the end to determine final standings. It does take away from the actual racing but maybe display a running total of accumulated penalties so that I can predict my final standing in the order.

Multiplier at end of race can then be option for host to select. Anything from 0 (no penalty) to x10 (or something higher) with the option to disqualify if total penalty exceed a certain number of seconds. This will simplify the overall system, prevent the random slowdown on track that is both infuriating and frustrating, and get us back to racing as cleanly as possible.

I think calculation should be on time gained from corner exit to corner entry (straights) as most cuts are an attempt to straighten the corner and/or exit with higher corner speed thus reducing the time on the following straight. Just calculating time gained in the corner is misleading since I might gain in the corner with a slight cut but compromise exit speed and as a result actually lose time on the following straight. I'll even venture that taking overall lap time is sufficient so that if someone cuts a certain corner but slows down so that overall lap time isn't fastest then there is no penalty given. Almost like a yellow flag in some races where you can't post fastest sector or lap time when a yellow is displayed. Similarly only give a time penalty when sector time and/or lap time is fastest.

Or just go to a simple calculation of x number of cuts equal 1 lap deducted from overall race progress. No slow downs and if you exceed track limits by 5 times then one lap is automatically deducted from progress.

A simplified implementation with easily understood rules and consequences would go a long way in elevating the frustration.

Charger
11-12-2017, 22:19
if i could i'd change the title to "multiplayer is fundamentally awesome": thanks to the strict penalties and human nature (there are still players who don't slow down) i've had a wonderful suprise just recently: intense race, was 2nd place all the time, fighting for p1, mandatory pitstop, crew decided (without me telling them to do so) they want check motor-electronics, p1 also at the pits but was able to leave way earlier (due to my f... crew)...

i finished as p2 and was angry about pit crew screwing up my (for sure possible) win.

and voila: p1 was one of the "abusers" and had a +30 seconds penalty...and guess who won?

another good example of the penalty system working pretty good for clean racers like me:

- watkins glen
- fighting again for p1 / p3 right behind me
- in lap 3 p1 in front of me went full car over the lines on the left
- p3 behind me too
- i went only a bit wide with leftside of car
- all must have slow down warning
- i did as quick as possible - as the only one
- p1 went away / p3 overtook me without slowing down
- my warning went away quickly, can go fullspeed on the straight
- the two were still "slowing down" on the straight and loosing all there advantage they got by not following the race directors order

so - this IS a fair system. i'd like SMS to just keep it as strict as it is now - with a few adjustments where needed (no penaltie when just touching bit gras without gaining anything .... )

I think you are the minority here, no one wants to win races by jumping up to 1st because someone got a penalty they couldn't shake, imagine when the boot is on the other foot and it happens to you, you won't be happy.

The other thing is no one should have to slow down in a race, if you cut you get a penalty that is not in dispute but it's too tight when battling for position and kills online racing, well actually cuts aren't the problem running a little bit wide is, when you have 32 cars with real people driving them into the first corner of a race it is almost impossible to not get a penalty when you should get a warning, do it 3 times and you get a penalty, it's simple, it also gives you a chance to adjust your driving to not do it again.

Persistent cutting or extending of course should be punished but the way it is handled now is not ideal, also if you end up with a say 3 sec penalty for cutting 3 times it gives you a chance to try and claw that back over the race, getting slow downs causes you to lose a hell of a lot more time than you may have gained, sometimes you lose also on extending, as you have found by winning races by default.

I would much rather win a race by winning and battling as hard as I could to win it.

Schnizz58
11-12-2017, 22:50
So you gain 10 seconds for your first cut and get 'a warning' and you do it again for your second cut and get 'a warning' then everyone savvy enough will take those 'allowed' cuts and online will be a farce.

No idea how feasible this is but here's a suggestion to throw darts at. Keep track of cumulative time gained through off-track excursions. When that time gained is greater than some threshold (maybe a second or half second, whatever makes sense), impose a penalty in proportion to the time gained. Most of these cuts gain you a tenth here and there so they aren't a big deal unless the driver is doing it every lap. You're worried about a big 10 second cut. Obviously that should be penalized immediately (like Verstappen in Mexico last year....oh wait) and it will be because it was more than the threshold. On the other hand for a series of small cuts, it takes a few before a penalty is triggered. [And it would also be helpful if there was a warning when you're getting close to the limit.]

This system would be more forgiving for small, accidental cuts but would still be a deterrent to cutting huge portions of the circuit.

ETA: Also in qualifying, there should be zero tolerance. Laps get deleted if you gain time from cutting. But for the love of Yahweh, please get rid of the penalty where your next lap gets deleted too. If you must keep it, limit it to the last corner. Cutting the track 2 or 3 turns before the finish line isn't going to help your next lap.

cpcdem
11-12-2017, 23:40
No idea how feasible this is but here's a suggestion to throw darts at. Keep track of cumulative time gained through off-track excursions. When that time gained is greater than some threshold (maybe a second or half second, whatever makes sense), impose a penalty in proportion to the time gained. Most of these cuts gain you a tenth here and there so they aren't a big deal unless the driver is doing it every lap. You're worried about a big 10 second cut. Obviously that should be penalized immediately (like Verstappen in Mexico last year....oh wait) and it will be because it was more than the threshold. On the other hand for a series of small cuts, it takes a few before a penalty is triggered. [And it would also be helpful if there was a warning when you're getting close to the limit.]

This system would be more forgiving for small, accidental cuts but would still be a deterrent to cutting huge portions of the circuit.

One thing to note about this, is that if you are in a fight and by going wide you earn 0.1 or 0.2 seconds, in reality most of the times you earn absolutely nothing, because if there's a car just in front of you, you have to brake anyway, otherwise you will slam into him :) If you fight with a car 3-4 seconds ahead, if you gain 0.1 in 5 corners it will not mean you will be ahead of him! You will stay in the same position as before..So I am not sure if it makes sense to add up tiny penalties like that.

On the other hand, if by going wide you earn more momentum than the guy ahead and this way you overtake him, then yes, now you gained an advantage be going wide and you should either give the place back or get a penalty. Not sure if the game's detection system can be that much sophisticated to trap this situation though..

Schnizz58
12-12-2017, 00:01
One thing to note about this, is that if you are in a fight and by going wide you earn 0.1 or 0.2 seconds, in reality most of the times you earn absolutely nothing, because if there's a car just in front of you, you have to brake anyway, otherwise you will slam into him :) If you fight with a car 3-4 seconds ahead, if you gain 0.1 in 5 corners it will not mean you will be ahead of him! You will stay in the same position as before..So I am not sure if it makes sense to add up tiny penalties like that.
I think it does make sense. Even if you haven't gained a position, you've unfairly gained time on the car ahead. In a real race, drivers are usually forgiven for the first several times it happens but if it becomes habitual, they'll get a warning flag followed by a drive through if it continues. So if the threshold is 1 second and a driver gains 0.8 seconds by cutting, then maybe he gets a warning at that point. If he then cuts the track for an additional 2 tenths, he gets a penalty.

If you don't like that approach, then maybe classify cuts into minor and major. A major one earns you an instant penalty but it takes some number of minor ones to trigger a penalty. Again the goal is to keep from penalizing the occasional small error while at the same time penalizing egregious track cuts and also a continued pattern of small ones.


On the other hand, if by going wide you earn more momentum than the guy ahead and this way you overtake him, then yes, now you gained an advantage be going wide and you should either give the place back or get a penalty. Not sure if the game's detection system can be that much sophisticated to trap this situation though..
I believe that the game already handles this to some extent. If you go off track and gain a position, you'll be asked to give it back (sometimes unfairly).

Echo_29
12-12-2017, 00:16
I'm fine with the track limits however I think it's a little confusing how much time you have to give back if you get a slow down, maybe a timer where you have to be off throttle for X amount of seconds would make it clearer. :)

cpcdem
12-12-2017, 00:48
I think it does make sense. Even if you haven't gained a position, you've unfairly gained time on the car ahead. In a real race, drivers are usually forgiven for the first several times it happens but if it becomes habitual, they'll get a warning flag followed by a drive through if it continues. So if the threshold is 1 second and a driver gains 0.8 seconds by cutting, then maybe he gets a warning at that point. If he then cuts the track for an additional 2 tenths, he gets a penalty.

If you don't like that approach, then maybe classify cuts into minor and major. A major one earns you an instant penalty but it takes some number of minor ones to trigger a penalty. Again the goal is to keep from penalizing the occasional small error while at the same time penalizing egregious track cuts and also a continued pattern of small ones.


Yeah, I absolutely agree with classifying cuts into minor and major! This is what happens also in real life racing!

And thinking about it more a bit more, I think I agree also with your first point.

Colburnnn
12-12-2017, 04:13
You'll still end up with 'penalty calculating' on everyone involved to decide the finishing spots. That's not what racing is about, and it's the opposite of fun.

So 'fun' is people cutting deliberately? If you cheat, you should get punished.

Racing is about tuning your car for the track/conditions and being fastest around a set amount of laps. If you go outside of the track and are quicker, you sure as hell deserve a time penalty.

Imagine the track had walls, like a street circuit. You can't cut anywhere. That's how you should imagine a track without walls, and find the quickest line you can.

Racing4Life
12-12-2017, 05:59
The problem is, this isnt all black and white, on a race track there is a huge amount of grey. :)

The rules of the FIA clearly state, the track is between the two white lines, everything else is off track. But irl in nearly every race it is tolerated to go off track as long as two tires are still between those two white lines. As far as I know SMS defined the track limits in the way, 50% of the car have to be within those lines. Dont shoot me if I'm wrong.

Basicly this idea wasnt really bad, and imho beginners can easily adjust to those limits, because they've never learned otherwise. But on the side, long time sim racers imho run into troubles, because they've learned completely different cornering. You can take every other sim, AC, R3E, rFactor, Automobilista, hell even pCARS1 didnt have those strict limits. For example, Campus and Stavelot at Spa, every racer irl uses those curbs for fast cornering. Brands Hatch, the curbs left handed after Paddock Hill and Druids, Donington Park, the curbs after Redgate, the old hairpin and McLeans, all get used by racers in real life, and noone complains.

To be honest, last week I personally hated pCARS2. Had a race at the lovely track of Spa, 40 laps. A couple of penalties occured, slowing down always was hell. Maybe I've gained an advantage of a tenth by going a lill wide, but I've always lost at least five seconds whenever I had a slow down. That was already very annoying, but the real fun occured within the last lap. I was still fighting through the bus stop for a position. I've tried overtaking at the outside, my opponent decided I dont need room to survive, gave me a lill hit, my car oversteered a lill and I had a nice drift over the curb on the right. Didnt even notice I was off the track, and got disqualified crossing the finishing line. As you can imagine, I was laughing my ass off. DQed after nearly 90 minutes racing for, well, catching an oversteering car again. Guess if I had spun, I would have been slow enough to avoid the DQ. :D

Ian Bell
12-12-2017, 06:44
The problem is, this isnt all black and white, on a race track there is a huge amount of grey. :)

The rules of the FIA clearly state, the track is between the two white lines, everything else is off track. But irl in nearly every race it is tolerated to go off track as long as two tires are still between those two white lines. As far as I know SMS defined the track limits in the way, 50% of the car have to be within those lines. Dont shoot me if I'm wrong.

Basicly this idea wasnt really bad, and imho beginners can easily adjust to those limits, because they've never learned otherwise. But on the side, long time sim racers imho run into troubles, because they've learned completely different cornering. You can take every other sim, AC, R3E, rFactor, Automobilista, hell even pCARS1 didnt have those strict limits. For example, Campus and Stavelot at Spa, every racer irl uses those curbs for fast cornering. Brands Hatch, the curbs left handed after Paddock Hill and Druids, Donington Park, the curbs after Redgate, the old hairpin and McLeans, all get used by racers in real life, and noone complains.

To be honest, last week I personally hated pCARS2. Had a race at the lovely track of Spa, 40 laps. A couple of penalties occured, slowing down always was hell. Maybe I've gained an advantage of a tenth by going a lill wide, but I've always lost at least five seconds whenever I had a slow down. That was already very annoying, but the real fun occured within the last lap. I was still fighting through the bus stop for a position. I've tried overtaking at the outside, my opponent decided I dont need room to survive, gave me a lill hit, my car oversteered a lill and I had a nice drift over the curb on the right. Didnt even notice I was off the track, and got disqualified crossing the finishing line. As you can imagine, I was laughing my ass off. DQed after nearly 90 minutes racing for, well, catching an oversteering car again. Guess if I had spun, I would have been slow enough to avoid the DQ. :D

Nope, we follow FIA until it comes to kerbs where you need to keep 50% of your car on the kerb or grasscrete. For white lines you're legal so long as some part of your outer tyres are still on white lines (except for the kerbs as before).

mister dog
12-12-2017, 08:43
So 'fun' is people cutting deliberately? If you cheat, you should get punished.

Racing is about tuning your car for the track/conditions and being fastest around a set amount of laps. If you go outside of the track and are quicker, you sure as hell deserve a time penalty.

Imagine the track had walls, like a street circuit. You can't cut anywhere. That's how you should imagine a track without walls, and find the quickest line you can.
You're missing the point here as the complaints are for slowdown penalties being given when you aren't cutting, nor gaining much of an advantage (on the contrary even when going wide).

barekone
12-12-2017, 09:47
Personally i don't find the cut system too bad overall, cutting the INSIDE of a corner/chicane OR tracks with big tarmac runoff areas on exits like cota, Le man, Monza or Silverstone need the penalty system as it is now..

Its the accidentally running wide on the exit of tracks with gravel traps or grass that i reckon needs a look at..?

Running wide on exit shouldn't be a slow down penalty, invalid lap would be enough (as long as there's no tarmac area beyond) your losing speed/lap time anyway...

Since pc1 Ive run in a lobby where half a second covers the top 10 drivers, a slow down penalty is way too harsh for the slightest mistake, it used to be if you pushed a bit hard on an exit and touched a bit of grass you`d lose at a minimum 1 position, possibly 2 positions (due to slower exit speed) and it invalidated you`re lap time..

Major inside cutters need to be penalized harshly...

its the tiny mistakes that cost you time and make you slower overall that shouldn't be penalized...

demadou
12-12-2017, 10:34
Maybe coming back to PC1 penaly system ? Automatic slowdown for a given amount of time ?
For a clear and dirty cut : 5 s and for a little run wide on a turn for example, let's say 2s

Is it possible ?
Because with the state of the game, we have been from light penalties to very harsh ones ...

mister dog
12-12-2017, 10:40
No slowdowns for non cuts please, just give a driving standards warning when people go wide or make an involuntary excursion and after 5 or so warnings add a time penalty (should scale to the length of the race ideally). Slowdown only in the event of a genuine cut that gains the player a good amount of time.

AbeWoz
12-12-2017, 11:49
Maybe coming back to PC1 penaly system ? Automatic slowdown for a given amount of time ?
For a clear and dirty cut : 5 s and for a little run wide on a turn for example, let's say 2s

Is it possible ?
Because with the state of the game, we have been from light penalties to very harsh ones ...

dear god know....thats a crash fest waiting to happen online

cpcdem
12-12-2017, 12:41
Guys, really, after all those discussions, aren't things simple really? Does anybody disagree with that? :

- For cutting the track (lot's of time gained), give instant harsh penalty (as it is now or even harsher)
- For going just a bit wide (minimal time gained or even lost), give only a warning and after x warnings a penalty

Invincible
12-12-2017, 12:54
Guys, really, after all those discussions, aren't things simple really? Does anybody disagree with that? :

- For cutting the track (lot's of time gained), give instant harsh penalty (as it is now or even harsher)
- For going just a bit wide (minimal time gained or even lost), give only a warning and after x warnings a penalty

Sounds easy, but isn't. How is the game deciding if you're cutting or running wide? Also, the engine cannot reliably calculate how much time you might have gained from a cut, compared to staying barely within the track limits.

In some situations, running a bit wide can give a much better entry into the next corner, yielding a massive time gain. But how is the game to know that?

cpcdem
12-12-2017, 12:59
That's been discussed already, Ian said in this thread that the system calculates the time gained, so this info is available to the game.

Edit: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58607-Multiplayer-is-fundamentally-broken-or-some-don-t-like-the-penalties&p=1444483&viewfull=1#post1444483

IsaacAsimov2670
12-12-2017, 13:42
My two cents for what they are worth.. I only ever play multiplayer... random lobbies...(or the best I can find as between my Ninja Daughter & having to make my own sandwiches I ain’t got no time!). I have changed my mind on the penalty system/track cutting, up until this point I thought it was killing my game enjoyment...Over the last few nights of playing and with the new patch which I absolutely love by then way..(congrats to Pcars2 entire Team, licking my lips for the next) I have come to accept the penalty system and make my adjustments accordingly... with that has come more enjoyment and understanding of why the system is in place, when I see the amount of people picking up penalties that are quicker than me..In the end it will punish those who don’t adjust and that includes the ones who are ‘just running a bit wide’ now again. Ultimately either way thoughtfully or not you are making a mistake (if you are cheating then the mistake was buying the game in the first place) so why shouldn’t it give you a warning or penalty, take it on the chin and put another lap in.. As I mentioned for me this was also brought about by the latest patch which is such an improvement it feels like another game to me.
Must admit there are a few places where it could do with some tweaking especially last few corners of a lap in quali and some grey areas I have probably missed as mentioned by other users but for me where we are at now is well ‘On Track’ to positioning this sim at best in class by a country mile. Absolutely loving the lobbies I was driving over the long weekend...even tried out the Ford Pick Ups at Knockhill. Congrats again to all involved, assume everyone on here is supporting the composer for the music score of project cars2 awards too as it deserves an award too. Time to hit the track, my two hours of fix!

CeeBee2001
12-12-2017, 14:31
idk about you but every car i drive has less acceleration than every one else. even the same cars. no matter how i take a turn, they can just blow right by me.

Check your throttle calibration.

cpcdem
12-12-2017, 14:39
In the end it will punish those who don’t adjust and that includes the ones who are ‘just running a bit wide’ now again. Ultimately either way thoughtfully or not you are making a mistake (if you are cheating then the mistake was buying the game in the first place) so why shouldn’t it give you a warning or penalty, take it on the chin and put another lap in.

How can you "take it on the chin and put another lap in"? You're in the middle of a race, there are a few people behind you and ahead and you are fighting with them, you can't just take another lap. If you go "a bit wide", even if you earn nothing, you are now forced to slow down and have the guys behind pass, race completely ruined. Same if it happens to another driver, he gets a slow down where he really shouldn't, you easily pass him. Is this racing?

I agree with your other points about the game, it is brilliant, but the way the penalty system is awarding slowdowns/penalties even in situations that absolutely no racing director would even bother with in real life, is killing the online racing in my opinion. Still also I can adjust and when I am racing, I am still usually at least in the top 3, I'm just not enjoying it personally anymore.

rich1e I
12-12-2017, 14:59
The problem is, we can give 100 million good suggestions but I think we shouldn't forget that everything has to be coded as well and I think most of us have no clue how all that works and how much it takes to implement something that complicated.
In RL drivers are given warnings, I think it's 3 warnings before getting penalized for not respecting track limits. After that what penalty should be applied? Slow down only? Drive through? Time added at the end of the race? Plus, the system must distinguish between leaving the track and cutting (best example is COTA to prevent players from cutting the esses section after T1) and going slightly wide on exit.
In theory we could "create" a nearly perfect penalty system, but can something like that be done and will it be 100% consistent with that amount of tracks? I doubt it. There will always be someone complaining afterwards about penalties at turn X at Dubai making no sense, being BS or whatever because racing creates countless different situations. There are just too many variables.

rich1e I
12-12-2017, 15:08
How can you "take it on the chin and put another lap in"? You're in the middle of a race, there are a few people behind you and ahead and you are fighting with them, you can't just take another lap. If you go "a bit wide", even if you earn nothing, you are now forced to slow down and have the guys behind pass, race completely ruined. Same if it happens to another driver, he gets a slow down where he really shouldn't, you easily pass him. Is this racing?

I agree with your other points about the game, it is brilliant, but the way the penalty system is awarding slowdowns/penalties even in situations that absolutely no racing director would even bother with in real life, is killing the online racing in my opinion. Still also I can adjust and when I am racing, I am still usually at least in the top 3, I'm just not enjoying it personally anymore.

If you say the game calculates the time gained, how can it give you then a slow down when you actually didn't gain any time? It's a bit contradictory, don't you think? I don't think the penalty system penalizes people for nothing.
Again, it's not true that race directors in RL don't bother with track limit violations. I can provide evidence for that. Lots of drive throughs are handed out.

Fight-Test
12-12-2017, 15:19
Why would running wide not give a advantage? This can be more of advantage then cutting. Using more of the track will give you better times especially into a long straight but of course it situational. Like barekone said, I can think of 2 corners on Silverstone alone that you can run wide and get advantage.

cpcdem
12-12-2017, 15:20
If you say the game calculates the time gained, how can it give you then a slow down when you actually didn't gain any time? It's a bit contradictory, don't you think? I don't think the penalty system penalizes people for nothing.
Again, it's not true that race directors don't bother with track limit violations. I can provide evidence for that. Lots of drive throughs are handed out.

It wasn't me that said it, Mr. Bell did :). Indeed, it sounds to me a bit strange that the penalties are the way they are now. Maybe they did it by mistake, or maybe they made it very overzealous, so for example when a driver gains 0.2 sec, they made it ask to slow down for say 2 seconds (10x gained) and that was by design. But yes, it also does penalize people for nothing, you go a little wide, possibly 2 wheels in the sand so you lose already much speed and time, but you still get penalized. So maybe the time gain detection needs also some improvement, but in any case we really don't know, we can only assume and hear what the devs say to us. Oh, how much I wish I could have a peek at the code :)

About track violations, yes if cars go 5 meters wide, or by going wide they cut the track, then of course race directors do/should give penalties. But for very brief slight going wide moments? Absolutely not IMO. Check this also: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58119-Race-Line-Penalties-Track-Limit&p=1436754&viewfull=1#post1436754

cpcdem
12-12-2017, 15:26
Why would running wide not give a advantage? This can be more of advantage then cutting. Using more of the track will give you better times especially into a long straight but of course it situational. Like barekone said, I can think of 2 corners on Silverstone alone that you can run wide and get advantage.

OK, I'll shut up now. Just a last reply, been saying the same thing over and over again for days but you still ask this, so no point further discussing it it seems. Yes, when you gain an advantage, in my opinion the system should give you a slowdown or penalty. When you don't gain an advantage, or it is extremely small, it should not give you a penalty. Or give you a warning x times before giving you a penalty.

Schnizz58
12-12-2017, 15:33
If you say the game calculates the time gained, how can it give you then a slow down when you actually didn't gain any time? It's a bit contradictory, don't you think? I don't think the penalty system penalizes people for nothing.
Sometimes it does. I've gotten penalized when I accidentally ran off track (wide) for 5-10 seconds.

Jesup16
12-12-2017, 15:36
Why would running wide not give a advantage? This can be more of advantage then cutting. Using more of the track will give you better times especially into a long straight but of course it situational. Like barekone said, I can think of 2 corners on Silverstone alone that you can run wide and get advantage.

Running wide doesn't always guarantee an advantage because you are increasing the distance. If there is grass or something to inhibit acceleration at the edge of the track, that would also negate any advantage.

I don't know how to improve this system, but I can say it is very frustrating to receive penalties when there is no advantage gained.

IMO, running wide and cutting the corner are 2 different things and thus, should be treated different. Example:

I can "cut" the first chicane at Monza... infact, I can totally skip it. That should be treated more harshly because the time to gain is more than running wide on the exit... which has its own natural penalty system to prevent running wide in the sand trap.

To play devils advocate: running wide at turn 1 means you'll likely cut the next the corner... especially if you are forced off due to someone overshooting the inside line. It happens to me at the Monza almost every time I have the outside line into turn 1. I get punted by the inside line drive and I get the more severe penalty because I'm forced to "cut" the next turn. Never mind the curbs which are another form of "track design imposed penalty".

ironik
12-12-2017, 15:44
It wasn't me that said it, Mr. Bell did :). Indeed, it sounds to me a bit strange that the penalties are the way they are now. Maybe they did it by mistake, or maybe they made it very overzealous, so for example when a driver gains 0.2 sec, they made it ask to slow down for say 2 seconds (10x gained) and that was by design. But yes, it also does penalize people for nothing, you go a little wide, possibly 2 wheels in the sand so you lose already much speed and time, but you still get penalized. So maybe the time gain detection needs also some improvement, but in any case we really don't know, we can only assume and hear what the devs say to us. Oh, how much I wish I could have a peek at the code :)

About track violations, yes if cars go 5 meters wide, or by going wide they cut the track, then of course race directors do/should give penalties. But for very brief slight going wide moments? Absolutely not IMO. Check this also: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58119-Race-Line-Penalties-Track-Limit&p=1436754&viewfull=1#post1436754

To be fair, Ian wanted to make the cut detection much more lenient in race than what we have now.
IIRC, he wanted to allow 50% of the car above the curb / painted areas, a bit like the link you provided.
Many WMD members, including league racers and organizers voiced strongly against that and pushed toward a stricter rule. They asked for a strict two tyres on track (white lines define the limit of the track as curbs aren't part of it).

So, if I remember correctly, Ian went for a mixed approach, except for chicanes.
The point is, if SMS allow drivers to drive over the curbs and the "grasscrete", you can be sure that if one wants to compete, one has to follow these lines EVERY laps.
The guys who follow the rules (white lines defining the track limit), would lose a lot of time.

In my opinion, the real "problem" here is that SMS went a bit too far for correcting the too lenient "advantage detection" so that, now, you can be warned even if you lose time.
I guess that the too long slow down penalties is linked to this "advantage detection" and that's why we have huge slow down penalties compared to the actual gain (or loss).

g33k hack3rs
12-12-2017, 16:35
So 'fun' is people cutting deliberately? If you cheat, you should get punished.

Racing is about tuning your car for the track/conditions and being fastest around a set amount of laps. If you go outside of the track and are quicker, you sure as hell deserve a time penalty.

Imagine the track had walls, like a street circuit. You can't cut anywhere. That's how you should imagine a track without walls, and find the quickest line you can.

The problem is that many "cuts" are avoiding contact with others making a mistake or even yourself making a mistake and auto correcting by slowing down and not taking advantage of it. That is why many of us feel that the system is excessive and the resulting penalty not even remotely related to the advantage that has been gained. I'm all for penalizing blatant cutting but as Ian so accurately pointed out it is very difficult to determine with all the benefits of replays and driver questions on who is to blame and if it was really an attempt to gain an advantage. Doing this in code is exponentially more difficult. Not all racing stewards agree on the person to blame and penalty so simplifying the system and eliminating slow down on track would be my recommendation.

I've been at a multitude of races and never have I seen a penalty to slow down on track. At most a penalty will be applied in the pits or at the end of the race. Gaining an advantage and overtaking is different but without overtaking there is no slow down on track. The closer we can get to this, the better the acceptance from the community would be imho.

IsaacAsimov2670
12-12-2017, 16:40
I won’t go into it but all valid points considering I just got penalized 1.32, 7 laps at Oulton, TC. Me 2nd place, 3rd -4secs. All S level racers, 1 C level. Penultimate lap, last right hand, v small infraction inside, warning (first of race), I start to slow.. BAM!....penalty 1.32, cross the line 2nd but lose 2nd, 3rd, -20 skill. Meh! Grand scheme though that is the first real game breaker for me in around two weeks of multiplayer not counting usual online tech issues.. and I said I wouldn’t ‘Go into it!’ Sorry don’t have a vid so can’t help much with reporting except that I experience... so to answer the OP’s title for me would be a ‘no Defo not’ but there can always be improvements but isn’t that true of absolutely everything in life?... trick part is there will be improvements & as long as we make sms aware of them in a calm and polite manner then I am sure they are intelligent enough to decide for the drivers that understand what is essentially right & wrong, fair, unjust & if it’s possible make the required adjustments..i know it’s not as black and white as that but.... just saying, bit harsh saying it broken cos it’s not.. isn’t this always a can of worms though too in all racing sims?

Colburnnn
12-12-2017, 23:36
The problem is that many "cuts" are avoiding contact with others making a mistake or even yourself making a mistake and auto correcting by slowing down and not taking advantage of it. That is why many of us feel that the system is excessive and the resulting penalty not even remotely related to the advantage that has been gained. I'm all for penalizing blatant cutting but as Ian so accurately pointed out it is very difficult to determine with all the benefits of replays and driver questions on who is to blame and if it was really an attempt to gain an advantage. Doing this in code is exponentially more difficult. Not all racing stewards agree on the person to blame and penalty so simplifying the system and eliminating slow down on track would be my recommendation.

I've been at a multitude of races and never have I seen a penalty to slow down on track. At most a penalty will be applied in the pits or at the end of the race. Gaining an advantage and overtaking is different but without overtaking there is no slow down on track. The closer we can get to this, the better the acceptance from the community would be imho.

Me too. Which is why in an earlier post I said whack a time penalty on your finishing time and thats it. If you gain an advantage you pay for it later. Stay on the track.

Its obviously different if you are trying to avoid an accident, but you should consider that when you are piling into the first few corners with your finger (or foot) held down on the accelerator. People who think they can go from 6th to first in the first few corners are a big problem.

My previous post on here, someone replied that 'it's simply not fun' to have a race decided by time penalties. Well... Would you prefer a 20-25 sec DT for every small cut?
No.

Even if the advantage you gained was 0.2secs you still went off the track, (cheated) and it was your fault in some way. You should rightly be punished with a (for example) 1 sec pen.

If you lost time, then yes, no penalty. The game should be able to tell you are behind on lap delta.

Charger
13-12-2017, 02:19
Be interested to see how much the guys that say everything is fine (extends we are talking about and penalty given) actually race per week or per night and with how many people?

We race EVERY night and have from 10-30 people every night and race for at least 4-5 hours per night, when you do that much racing you will find these penalties are not correct, some tracks are fine and adhere to the 50% or kerb rule but some just don't, when you have 4 fast racers battling for a corner to get ahead and you get a slowdown for a MINOR wheel or whatever off track is very frustrating, offliners may be fine as they are following a train of AI, real people don't do that, they adjust mid corner or touch brakes to adjust and get a fast line out.

Don't judge the penalties given by offline, please try it online and I welcome you to join our servers and see how you fare.

I have adjusted to the WALL (i.e the track limit is a wall) ethos but it just doesn't work, there are occasions where you have no choice to run that little bit wide to avoid accidents and we are not talking about first corner stuff here, honestly some of these comments make me feel like some people have never experienced a real race with 32 REAL people doing whatever they need to do SAFELY to get ahead, it isn't sloppy racing or cheating, it's very hardcore racing.

Let's get it into perspective here though, cuts IMHO are ok, if you cut the chicane at Monza a slowdown is a good thing or insta penalty, cuts don't seem to be the issue here, neither are extends to a point, it is the slowdown that is the problem full stop, warnings are what you should get, the same as you get warnings for contact by the race director, he doesn't say you hit that guy slow down, he says warning for driving standards, this should be the same to a point.

When I have had driving standard warnings maybe 3 times (because I'm on it after my Sandwich) I have not had a penalty but assume this will chip into your safety rating so accumulates over time and will drop you down, I am an S rating and have not dropped down since week 2, so why do I suffer on one race for trying to win a race by pushing hard, not cutting, not cheating, just racing?

Here is a video of a couple of races, single and crossclub, thanks to Speed and Bull.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_Mj3xDsCt0&t=2578s

Pick where you would have given penalties, this is how we race
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stXQhduuQAk&t=2501s

Colburnnn
13-12-2017, 02:59
[QUOTE=Charger;1446027]Be interested to see how much the guys that say everything is fine (extends we are talking about and penalty given) actually race per week or per night and with how many people?

We race EVERY night and have from 10-30 people every night and race for at least 4-5 hours per night, when you do that much racing you will find these penalties are not correct, some tracks are fine and adhere to the 50% or kerb rule but some just don't, when you have 4 fast racers battling for a corner to get ahead and you get a slowdown for a MINOR wheel or whatever off track is very frustrating, offliners may be fine as they are following a train of AI, real people don't do that, they adjust mid corner or touch brakes to adjust and get a fast line out.

Don't judge the penalties given by offline, please try it online and I welcome you to join our servers and see how you fare.

I have adjusted to the WALL (i.e the track limit is a wall) ethos but it just doesn't work, there are occasions where you have no choice to run that little bit wide to avoid accidents and we are not talking about first corner stuff here, honestly some of these comments make me feel like some people have never experienced a real race with 32 REAL people doing whatever they need to do SAFELY to get ahead, it isn't sloppy racing or cheating, it's very hardcore racing.

Yes, it is frustrating. But so are cheaters. So you think that track limits shouldn't matter when there is a battle? How about when you are by yourself chasing someone down and run wide? The answer is it is exactly the same. If you are in a battle you should give the position/time back. If you are on your own you should give the time back.

If you cant make a pass without going off/forcing someone else off the circuit you're doing it wrong.

In this conversation we both agree that slow downs are horrible and ruin racing. The answer? Time pens.

If you don't like the pens that much why don't you turn them off? Because people will just abuse the system.

Charger
13-12-2017, 03:06
We don't turn them off, did you watch the videos?, we always take our penalties like a man! whether we deserve them or not is another story, I suggest you watch the 2nd video and then give me your view!

Another thing is our lobbies are monitored more or less 24/7 so you can't cheat, if you cut a chicane and you do it twice or keep cutting the same corners you will be banned, it's simple, we don't allow cheats ;-)

Oh and another thing you console boys maybe don't know, on PC we have access to an API that we can ban people instantly from rejoining, this isn't a session kick, this is an instant ban, never come back type thing ;-)

Colburnnn
13-12-2017, 03:36
I said, if you don't like them why don't you turn them off, not why do you have them off.

If you take the pens like a man then there is no problem?

I don't really want to get into a **** flinging contest about PC/PS4, the penalty 'problem' is on both. 'PC boy'.

Anyway, I've agreed with you from the start. Slow downs are BS, should be time pens. The only way to solve online lobbies that are not spectated by a mod. If you don't like time pens, sort your racing line/driving style out.

Charger
13-12-2017, 03:43
I said, if you don't like them why don't you turn them off, not why do you have them off.

If you take the pens like a man then there is no problem?

I don't really want to get into a **** flinging contest about PC/PS4, the penalty 'problem' is on both. 'PC boy'.

Anyway, I've agreed with you from the start. Slow downs are BS, should be time pens. The only way to solve online lobbies that are not spectated by a mod. If you don't like time pens, sort your racing line/driving style out.

Lol PC Boy, give me a minute while I reel into the corner tending my wounds, at least we agree as I come out of my corner swinging like a bitch needing a Sandwich!

Colburnnn
13-12-2017, 05:35
Oh and another thing you console boys maybe don't know


Does a bitch needing a sandwich swing as limp as it sounds? Haha...

Peace out, hopefully the next patch cheers you up! :)

Sankyo
13-12-2017, 07:57
No need for PC-vs-console handbagging guys, it doesn't add anything to the forum.

Racing4Life
13-12-2017, 08:45
Well.
Imho there are two differents things which needs to be adressed:

1. The sometimes very strict track limits.
2. The penalty system.

Personally I could life with those strict limits, really I could. If the penaltys werent that harsh, and if you could really turn penalties completely off, if you decide for yourself the fellows around you respect those limits to a certain point.

But this isnt working everytime. Bug? The last two race evening I participated were both with guys I know for a very long time. In both races we've turned the penalty system off, but penalties were still handed out. First time we thought, umm maybe there was something wrongly setup. So we've double and tripple checked before the second race, penalties were completely off. And again, they werent. :mad:

OK, so we had to race with penalties, which were given excessive. For ganining maybe 0.1, 0.2 seconds by running a lill wide on exit, you either have to slow down a couple of seconds or you'll even receive a DT. Dont get me wrong, gaining an advantage should be penalised, but it is just to harsh. I'd like to remind you, I was running a lill wide at the last corner due to oversteer, and I got DQed for that maybe 200 metres before the race was over, because pCARS decided I need a DT for that mistake, and I just didnt have any chance anymore to comply. So decide for yourself if this is a proper penalty after 90 minutes of racing.

Some people wrote, its not that easy to implement a penalty system, which is able to include every aspect. And I really cant object here. Any penalty system is always a compromise. But maybe it would be possible to make some adjustments. For example, I had a race yesterday with a known "Free2Play"-Game. During this race over one hour I went wide on exit maybe five or six times. It just happens. I got punished for that, but in a way I couldnt complain. For 0.2 - 1 second I only had 90% throttle to my proposal instead of 100%. Surely I've lost time, maybe a second overall per penalty, so my advantage was completely gone and, and that is imho the important part, neither did I lose a huge amount of time for gaining a minor advantage, nor was there a risc for the other guys, because I was still but less accelerating after the corner. For gaining an advantage by going wide, imho this is a damned good solution.

But that is just my opinion, and maybe a proposal worth looking into. :)

Gromran
13-12-2017, 09:38
Fact is: respect the track limit, you don't get a penalty. Everything else is crying .

mister dog
13-12-2017, 09:54
Fact is: respect the track limit, you don't get a penalty. Everything else is crying .

:rolleyes:

Sankyo
13-12-2017, 09:59
Fact is: respect the track limit, you don't get a penalty. Everything else is crying .
The discussion was already much more nuanced than this, please don't derail it again with statements like these.

ironik
13-12-2017, 10:00
Be interested to see how much the guys that say everything is fine (extends we are talking about and penalty given) actually race per week or per night and with how many people?

We race EVERY night and have from 10-30 people every night and race for at least 4-5 hours per night, when you do that much racing you will find these penalties are not correct, some tracks are fine and adhere to the 50% or kerb rule but some just don't, when you have 4 fast racers battling for a corner to get ahead and you get a slowdown for a MINOR wheel or whatever off track is very frustrating, offliners may be fine as they are following a train of AI, real people don't do that, they adjust mid corner or touch brakes to adjust and get a fast line out.

Don't judge the penalties given by offline, please try it online and I welcome you to join our servers and see how you fare.

I have adjusted to the WALL (i.e the track limit is a wall) ethos but it just doesn't work, there are occasions where you have no choice to run that little bit wide to avoid accidents and we are not talking about first corner stuff here, honestly some of these comments make me feel like some people have never experienced a real race with 32 REAL people doing whatever they need to do SAFELY to get ahead, it isn't sloppy racing or cheating, it's very hardcore racing.

Let's get it into perspective here though, cuts IMHO are ok, if you cut the chicane at Monza a slowdown is a good thing or insta penalty, cuts don't seem to be the issue here, neither are extends to a point, it is the slowdown that is the problem full stop, warnings are what you should get, the same as you get warnings for contact by the race director, he doesn't say you hit that guy slow down, he says warning for driving standards, this should be the same to a point.

When I have had driving standard warnings maybe 3 times (because I'm on it after my Sandwich) I have not had a penalty but assume this will chip into your safety rating so accumulates over time and will drop you down, I am an S rating and have not dropped down since week 2, so why do I suffer on one race for trying to win a race by pushing hard, not cutting, not cheating, just racing?

Here is a video of a couple of races, single and crossclub, thanks to Speed and Bull.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_Mj3xDsCt0&t=2578s

Pick where you would have given penalties, this is how we race
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stXQhduuQAk&t=2501s

What are you trying to show with these videos ? I watched it a bit and didn't see any cutting or penalties ...
I really don't get what your point is.

Sankyo
13-12-2017, 10:01
But this isnt working everytime. Bug? The last two race evening I participated were both with guys I know for a very long time. In both races we've turned the penalty system off, but penalties were still handed out. First time we thought, umm maybe there was something wrongly setup. So we've double and tripple checked before the second race, penalties were completely off. And again, they werent. :mad:


Could you give more info about this? What kind of lobby, what settings, car/track, can you reproduce the issue and if yes, please post repro steps? Thanks.

FxUK
13-12-2017, 10:06
Fact is: respect the track limit, you don't get a penalty. Everything else is crying .

Mistakes happen, but as somebody who doesn't get many penalties, instead I cause an obstruction and a danger on the track by slowing down and trying to fulfil the notice requirements, I would rather see it just go straight to a penalty rather than an uninformative slow down notice. At least its a level playing field for all then.

I was in a race last night where two people in front got a slow down on spa, they tried to incorporate that slow down into the next turn, which you sort of can, except they where side by side, crawling around the corner with a small queue building behind them due to aggressive blocking. The only way to pass, ironically, being to go slightly off track, which would no doubt result in a penalty and potential instability, so about 5 people served the slow down notice, intended for 2. The amount of evasive manoeuvres I have seen / had to do myself because of people trying to tactically slow down is frustrating and can often end in disaster, but as above, I try to do this tactical slowing down myself, although without the aggressive blocking. Sometimes, it simply punishes me anyway, so I lose time to a slow down and the penalty on top.

Gromran
13-12-2017, 11:24
The discussion was already much more nuanced than this, please don't derail it again with statements like these.I know, but each second post is only "limits/penalty are to harsh". And i say, they don't.

Racing4Life
13-12-2017, 11:27
Could you give more info about this? What kind of lobby, what settings, car/track, can you reproduce the issue and if yes, please post repro steps? Thanks.

First session was the Honda 2&4 Concept at Long Beach, second one was the entire GT3 at Spa, both created ingame via "Create Online Event." Right now I'm not at my private PC (with pCARS2 installed), so I cant tell you what the first slider in "Rules and Regulations" is labeled, but for sure all penalties were set to off in this area.

We've tried reproducing with both sessions, and its completely random. Sometimes the penalties are off, sometimes they arent. We even tried reproducing it by different ppl creating the session, the song remains the same. Sometimes the penalty system is properly disabled, sometimes it isnt.

I know this doesnt belong into this thread, but FYI it is exactly the same with custom setups. After the latest patch nearly every time the proper setup is active after switching to the next session, but occasionally ... I'd say one out of of ten ... a completely different setup is active. One of those annoying little buggers, which are hard to catch.

Edit.: And Yes, those setups were created after the latest patch, so no old one.

Sankyo
13-12-2017, 11:33
First session was the Honda 2&4 Concept at Long Beach, second one was the entire GT3 at Spa, both created ingame via "Create Online Event." Right now I'm not at my private PC (with pCARS2 installed), so I cant tell you what the first slider in "Rules and Regulations" is labeled, but for sure all penalties were set to off in this area.

We've tried reproducing with both sessions, and its completely random. Sometimes the penalties are off, sometimes they arent. We even tried reproducing it by different ppl creating the session, the song remains the same. Sometimes the penalty system is properly disabled, sometimes it isnt.

I know this doesnt belong into this thread, but FYI it is exactly the same with custom setups. After the latest patch nearly every time the proper setup is active after switching to the next session, but occasionally ... I'd say one out of of ten ... a completely different setup is active. One of those annoying little buggers, which are hard to catch.

Edit.: And Yes, those setups were created after the latest patch, so no old one.
I guess that more people switch this off in online races, but currently you're the first/only reporting this. Have you tried whether it matters when you deselect penalties in the whole lobby creation? For example is it the first thing you set, or the last thing?

cpcdem
13-12-2017, 12:16
I had a couple races with the RWB guys yesterday night (until the standard Tuesday's Steam maintenance shut down disrupted it unfortunately). First race, in RBR, had a nice battle in qualifying, managed to get 1st. Race started, had a bad start, was 2nd after the first corner. For the next 4 laps (5 laps total race), I was having a great battle with the guy in 1st, pushing him for the overtake, but he has defending greatly, couldn't pass him. I thought, ok 2nd is still good, it was a good fight. And then it happened, the guy in front went just a little bit wide in one corner, just like EVERY SINGLE F1 driver does multiple times in RBR. In the next straight he slowed down (apparently slow down penalty), I comfortably passed him and won the race. Obviously completely un-enjoyed win, that was not racing (at the end), again it was penalty hunting.

A lot of people keep talking about cheaters etc etc. For the NNNth time, nobody disputes that the game should be harsh with corner cutters, who straighten chicanes etc, everybody (I assume) agrees that those should be penalized harshly, like they are now, or even more. But tiny off track moments, should not be penalized, or at most there should be a penalty only after going wide a certain number of times. Really, does anybody disagree with that?? The devs have said that the game engine already distinguishes cuts which gain the driver a lot of time, to "cuts" which gain him nothing or very little, so it should be doable with some calibration to make the system more real life like. After all, so many people say that "this is a sim,...." (and I agree), so I guess we all want the sim to be similar to what happens in real life also in this area, don't we?

Tom Curtis
13-12-2017, 12:19
First session was the Honda 2&4 Concept at Long Beach, second one was the entire GT3 at Spa, both created ingame via "Create Online Event." Right now I'm not at my private PC (with pCARS2 installed), so I cant tell you what the first slider in "Rules and Regulations" is labeled, but for sure all penalties were set to off in this area.

We've tried reproducing with both sessions, and its completely random. Sometimes the penalties are off, sometimes they arent. We even tried reproducing it by different ppl creating the session, the song remains the same. Sometimes the penalty system is properly disabled, sometimes it isnt.

I know this doesnt belong into this thread, but FYI it is exactly the same with custom setups. After the latest patch nearly every time the proper setup is active after switching to the next session, but occasionally ... I'd say one out of of ten ... a completely different setup is active. One of those annoying little buggers, which are hard to catch.

Edit.: And Yes, those setups were created after the latest patch, so no old one.

Were you using any Motorsport Presets for these online races? Also what are your setups? Just races or P Q etc?

Racing4Life
13-12-2017, 16:29
For example is it the first thing you set, or the last thing?
Usually its the last, because other stuff is more important. But next time I'll set the regulations first. :)

Edit: No Tom, no presets at all. And P, Q and race at the end.

bmanic
13-12-2017, 17:56
Also, since patch 3.0 the slow down penalties are utterly ridiculous. Not only are they absurdly strict to the point that you have to practically stop on track, but they’re causing far more wrecks as half the grid every race ends up with slow down penalties and have to literally crawl on track in most cases which now makes it a game of avoiding slow moving traffic as opposed to actual racing.

This bit I can confirm. Had a few near misses in yesterdays online session when quite a few people suddenly slowed down like crazy on various parts of the track. Turns out they were trying to get rid of the "Slow down!" penalty message.

As I've said before.. it's currently broken and was working just fine before patch 3.0. Luckily this is now starting to be rather obvious so hopefully it'll get rectified for next patch as it's again an issue that seems to get people to drop the game (as you can clearly see on PC / steamcharts.com).

On a positive note.. had my first ever combined Pole + Win and every single one of the guys racing (18 people) were absolutely awesome and very safe drivers. Even respecting blue flags!! This was on a U100 server. That's just awesome!

Charger
13-12-2017, 20:11
What are you trying to show with these videos ? I watched it a bit and didn't see any cutting or penalties ...
I really don't get what your point is.

You answered your own question and that is the point I was making, there were a few cuts on the second video on the last corner, more extends than cuts, these races were pre patch 3 hence the reason there were no penalties, if they were post patch there would have been a lot of penalties, it just shows that the racing was clean and didn't require a penalty.

rich1e I
13-12-2017, 20:53
I had a couple races with the RWB guys yesterday night (until the standard Tuesday's Steam maintenance shut down disrupted it unfortunately). First race, in RBR, had a nice battle in qualifying, managed to get 1st. Race started, had a bad start, was 2nd after the first corner. For the next 4 laps (5 laps total race), I was having a great battle with the guy in 1st, pushing him for the overtake, but he has defending greatly, couldn't pass him. I thought, ok 2nd is still good, it was a good fight. And then it happened, the guy in front went just a little bit wide in one corner, just like EVERY SINGLE F1 driver does multiple times in RBR. In the next straight he slowed down (apparently slow down penalty), I comfortably passed him and won the race. Obviously completely un-enjoyed win, that was not racing (at the end), again it was penalty hunting.

A lot of people keep talking about cheaters etc etc. For the NNNth time, nobody disputes that the game should be harsh with corner cutters, who straighten chicanes etc, everybody (I assume) agrees that those should be penalized harshly, like they are now, or even more. But tiny off track moments, should not be penalized, or at most there should be a penalty only after going wide a certain number of times. Really, does anybody disagree with that?? The devs have said that the game engine already distinguishes cuts which gain the driver a lot of time, to "cuts" which gain him nothing or very little, so it should be doable with some calibration to make the system more real life like. After all, so many people say that "this is a sim,...." (and I agree), so I guess we all want the sim to be similar to what happens in real life also in this area, don't we?

Honestly, I don't want to tell anybody how to set their lobbies up and I totally respect a few RWB guys I "know" from discord and the forums, but why on earth do you set up 5 laps races with 20+ people in the lobby? No wonder everybody has to push and defend like hell. If you all had longer races, tiny mistakes wouldn't mean anything, everyone would be more relaxed because in a 15 or 20 minutes race anything can happen, there's plenty of time to recover even from having spun and maybe in the end even take a podium.

Charger
13-12-2017, 20:58
Honestly, I don't want to tell anybody how to set their lobbies up and I totally respect a few RWB guys I "know" from discord and the forums, but why on earth do you set up 5 laps races with 20+ people in the lobby? No wonder everybody has to push and defend like hell. If you all had longer races, tiny mistakes wouldn't mean anything, everyone would be more relaxed because in a 15 or 20 minutes race anything can happen, there's plenty of time to recover even from having spun and maybe in the end even take a podium.

We do have longer races, we put 5 lappers on for random open lobbies as most people don't want to do long races, the 20+ lobbies are usually longer races, in the race cpcdem refers to there were about 10 of us iirc and I was 3rd got a couple slowdowns, this was on the RBR as in the second video I posted where we did 30 odd laps and no slowdowns pre patch 3.

Couldn't get near you last night cpcdem, damn Ferraris destroyed my Porker lol.

AbeWoz
13-12-2017, 21:01
Honestly, I don't want to tell anybody how to set their lobbies up and I totally respect a few RWB guys I "know" from discord and the forums, but why on earth do you set up 5 laps races with 20+ people in the lobby? No wonder everybody has to push and defend like hell. If you all had longer races, tiny mistakes wouldn't mean anything, everyone would be more relaxed because in a 15 or 20 minutes race anything can happen, there's plenty of time to recover even from having spun and maybe in the end even take a podium.

well the host sets the race length before people join...and he can't change it mid session so..............yeah

and a lot of people that do public lobbies like quicker races (less time commitment) and offers more variety to race more tracks in a given time.

I usually set up lobbies with 15min quali and 8-10 lap races.

davidt33
13-12-2017, 21:16
well the host sets the race length before people join...and he can't change it mid session so..............yeah

and a lot of people that do public lobbies like quicker races (less time commitment) and offers more variety to race more tracks in a given time.

I usually set up lobbies with 15min quali and 8-10 lap races.

That's my kind of lobby. Unfortunately haven't been able to find any like that yet.

cpcdem
13-12-2017, 21:31
Honestly, I don't want to tell anybody how to set their lobbies up and I totally respect a few RWB guys I "know" from discord and the forums, but why on earth do you set up 5 laps races with 20+ people in the lobby? No wonder everybody has to push and defend like hell. If you all had longer races, tiny mistakes wouldn't mean anything, everyone would be more relaxed because in a 15 or 20 minutes race anything can happen, there's plenty of time to recover even from having spun and maybe in the end even take a podium.

I only mentioned this race because I saw Charger's post and that race was just some hours before. In the last week I've had the same thing happening in several other races, 8, 10 laps, or even more, the duration doesn't change much. Unless you are doing very long endurance races, you always fight, no matter if it is for 1st place or for 10th or whatever.

In a race with touring cars 3-4 days ago, 11 or 12 laps long, I was chasing the leader, I saw he already had a 1 or 2 sec penalty, but I wouldn't just wait behind him and get a victory like that, I was trying to catch him and then would try to pass. But while I was still a few seconds behind, he suddenly slowed down a lot in the straight, I did not notice him going really wide, but apparently he got a warning. He was a standing duck at that point, easy to overtake him, but as I was doing that, obviously he was very frustrated and when I was side by side to him, he turned the wheel and pushed me to the wall, car almost destroyed. Obviously this is not acceptable behavior (and was dealt with later <g>), but I sort of understand him becoming so frustrated when he was giving it his all and in the heat of the moment a message appears telling him to slowdown for ever, because he slightly went off line or something like that. I have the same frustration when it happens to me, I just don't crash other cars afterwards..

cpcdem
13-12-2017, 21:41
Couldn't get near you last night cpcdem, damn Ferraris destroyed my Porker lol.

Yeah, even though the Ferrari was made slower in the last patch, same happened to the Porsche and I think it actually got slower even more that what the Ferrari did?
But you guys were also racing on my favorite tracks, I have run countless hours in TT at the RBR and RA. I won't tell about the other couple tracks I also like :)
Btw, as always great racing with you guys, very clean and fair..cheers!

Nyreen
13-12-2017, 23:04
From my perspective, the Porsche is on the top-tier at the moment ! Also with the BMW, but even if I get very good results in TT mode, I found myself not enough consistent to run the car in open lobbies (despite the hours I have in TT with the car). But it depends on the track, I would never make a Le Mans race in the 911, I always spin in the Porsche curves (...) because of the minimum downforce the track requires.

g33k hack3rs
14-12-2017, 17:23
well the host sets the race length before people join...and he can't change it mid session so..............yeah

and a lot of people that do public lobbies like quicker races (less time commitment) and offers more variety to race more tracks in a given time.

I usually set up lobbies with 15min quali and 8-10 lap races.

Wish I could find more lobbies like this. You must be racing at a different time than me. 80% of all lobbies seems to be GT3 and I rarely jump into any GT3 lobby. Might have to get a GT3 setup for lobby racing but I like a bit more diversity than driving the same car/class over and over.

Dave White
14-12-2017, 17:57
I'm fine with the track limits - maybe some people think that they're a bit tight in some places, but there have to be limits and as long as we all know what the limit is that's fine.
I'm also fine with getting a slowdown for even a small cut or run wide, as long as it is proportional to the time gain.

What I find frustrating is not being told about the infraction quickly so that I end up having to slow down way more than I gained (since apparently the penalty increases if you don't serve it quickly) or how much time I need to give up.
It isn't always obvious if you're inside or outside the line by 1cm when you're on pushing hard in close racing and I'm not going to slow down every time I feel I've hit the apex (or clipped the outside edge between two corners, or whatever) perfectly "just in case" (to avoid a penalty which I may or may not get).
If it comes up on screen that I need to give up .1 of a second I'll do that gladly, but currently it waits a few seconds and then tells me I need to "slow down" - at this point apparently the penalty is harsher, and I often need to lift for a few seconds and lose a relatively huge amount of time before the message goes away.

Herege
15-12-2017, 00:09
I would never make a Le Mans race in the 911, I always spin in the Porsche curves (...)

Irony? ;)

DodgeAnon
18-12-2017, 22:17
Bumping this as per v3.02 I’m unable to enter an online lobby due to constantly being disconnected... and if this is because all parties need to be on the same version number then that in itself is problematic given it isn’t out in all regions.

(Edit) Given the change in title I see I may have hit a nerve. If you are wanting create a multiplayer environment in which cars constantly slam their brakes on a straight due to an excessive slowdown penalty in the corner prior, causing crashes, contact warnings and driver standard warnings for those unfortunate enough to be behind, then by all means, I have no problem with that. That just isn’t the game I wish to play and I shall use my spare time playing other racing games instead.

cpcdem
19-12-2017, 00:02
The devs said they have already eased off the penalties for the next patch:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58607-Multiplayer-is-fundamentally-broken-or-some-don-t-like-the-penalties&p=1444549&viewfull=1#post1444549

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58119-Race-Line-Penalties-Track-Limit&p=1447349&viewfull=1#post1447349

No point using sarcasm I think, with a nice constructive discussion they heard us and fixed it. We just need to wait a bit more to get that released now.

davidt33
19-12-2017, 00:11
The devs said they have already eased off the penalties for the next patch:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58607-Multiplayer-is-fundamentally-broken-or-some-don-t-like-the-penalties&p=1444549&viewfull=1#post1444549

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58119-Race-Line-Penalties-Track-Limit&p=1447349&viewfull=1#post1447349

No point using sarcasm I think, with a nice constructive discussion they heard us and fixed it. We just need to wait a bit more to get that released now.

Amen.

Sankyo
19-12-2017, 14:45
Bumping this as per v3.02 I’m unable to enter an online lobby due to constantly being disconnected... and if this is because all parties need to be on the same version number then that in itself is problematic given it isn’t out in all regions.

(Edit) Given the change in title I see I may have hit a nerve. If you are wanting create a multiplayer environment in which cars constantly slam their brakes on a straight due to an excessive slowdown penalty in the corner prior, causing crashes, contact warnings and driver standard warnings for those unfortunate enough to be behind, then by all means, I have no problem with that. That just isn’t the game I wish to play and I shall use my spare time playing other racing games instead.
Are you on PS4 or PS4 Pro?

CRace44
21-12-2017, 01:49
Ah, so that's why some guy was slightly bumping me corner after corner for a whole lap in a race a couple days ago (until I managed to get a good lead)? He was simply trying to literally push me wide out of the track to get a penalty myself? I had not realized it, but now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense! It's getting better and better...

I got rammed wide in T2 at Redbull Ring, forcing me across of the white lines, which in turn triggered a slow down warning. It seems insane that I end up with a penalty because someone else rammed me off the racing surface. This is probably the most frustrating aspect of PCars 2.

1Bad_VR-4
21-12-2017, 05:10
I'm glad they're patching it, it was needed but is a little too harsh at times...was at sakitto earlier today, behind the leader by a second maybe and he spun out on one of the last corners...he was facing me when I came through and had nowhere to go, so I dove off track, hit him slightly in the process and barely saved it. What happens...lol...you need to give back the position you just gained within 20 seconds....he's all wrecked and I had to come to a complete stop or risk DQ. That's the 2nd time that's happened, the other was at laguna on the last corner and I never initiated or touched either of them until they had already spun out and were on the way off the track.

On a sidenote, besides that incident today, it actually felt a little different...I'd gone off quite a few times on quite a few diff tracks, working on setups and never got penalties unless I gained time and they were really warranted. Maybe I'm just finding where and how the penalties hit you easier though. I dunno.

nemo06
21-12-2017, 11:38
I can not understand.
Monza, three drivers: me with D1376, one with a better score than mine, one with a worse score than mine.
I come last, no errors, and I lose 34 points.

cpcdem
21-12-2017, 12:56
I'm glad they're patching it, it was needed but is a little too harsh at times...was at sakitto earlier today, behind the leader by a second maybe and he spun out on one of the last corners...he was facing me when I came through and had nowhere to go, so I dove off track, hit him slightly in the process and barely saved it. What happens...lol...you need to give back the position you just gained within 20 seconds....he's all wrecked and I had to come to a complete stop or risk DQ. That's the 2nd time that's happened, the other was at laguna on the last corner and I never initiated or touched either of them until they had already spun out and were on the way off the track.

Yeah, also that happens very often and it is extremely annoying. I think the system must check if the car(s) that were "overtaken" while going wide were stationary or just moving too slowly (they were still spinning for example) and in this case never ask to give a position back. Not sure how easy it is to implement that, though..



On a sidenote, besides that incident today, it actually felt a little different...I'd gone off quite a few times on quite a few diff tracks, working on setups and never got penalties unless I gained time and they were really warranted. Maybe I'm just finding where and how the penalties hit you easier though. I dunno.

I suspect I know why this happens. When you are trying a new track, learning the lines etc, you generally go a lot slower than on tracks you already know well enough and are fast in them. The system compares how fast you go through a corner to some predefined time that is considered "normal" and gives you a penalty/slowdown only when you are faster than that. So if you are generally not up to speed yet in that track, then penalties are not that much of a problem. But when you gain confidence in the car/track combo and start to push/do good lap times, it's then when you're being heavily penalized for going slightly off track.

1Bad_VR-4
21-12-2017, 14:37
Yeah, also that happens very often and it is extremely annoying. I think the system must check if the car(s) that were "overtaken" while going wide were stationary or just moving too slowly (they were still spinning for example) and in this case never ask to give a position back. Not sure how easy it is to implement that, though..



I suspect I know why this happens. When you are trying a new track, learning the lines etc, you generally go a lot slower than on tracks you already know well enough and are fast in them. The system compares how fast you go through a corner to some predefined time that is considered "normal" and gives you a penalty/slowdown only when you are faster than that. So if you are generally not up to speed yet in that track, then penalties are not that much of a problem. But when you gain confidence in the car/track combo and start to push/do good lap times, it's then when you're being heavily penalized for going slightly off track.

Yeah, that would be a good idea, cause it is definitely not fair but I don't know how easy it would be to implement either.

the second part makes sense but I did a long 5 or 6 hour session, so I was also on a lot of track/car combos I do know really well and was just working on finding the last second or so. I'm not alien fast but I'm not slow and I was definitely pushing, so I would go off in the process. It just seemed like it was a lot more lax, unless I really gained time...I might be subconsciously making sure to stay within the limits tho, because before I was 2 wheels on the track and that's not exactly how it works here and curbs are different too.

Maybe my lines are slightly adapting because when they first made the change, I was getting penalties all the time for what seemed to me, to be pointless errors or things I couldn't help going wide or just barely getting 2 wheels over the line but not gaining any time, forced off the track/line by opponents etc...it was very frustrating at first but it was needed vs what the penalty system was like before the patch. I do hope they end up being able to tweak it for the better though.

Foofer37
22-12-2017, 00:18
I've just about given up on any and ALL multiplayer. It never works right. Someone is always gaming the system. My score just goes down and down :) I will soon be excluded from many multiplayer races anyway, and to no fault of my own. Back to single player.

Balles
22-12-2017, 06:13
I've just about given up on any and ALL multiplayer. It never works right. Someone is always gaming the system. My score just goes down and down :) I will soon be excluded from many multiplayer races anyway, and to no fault of my own. Back to single player.

It's not a score !!! Going down just means you're not as good as the others you racing with. Look at your skill and racing behavior before acusing Multiplayer.
People have to stop saying multiplayer is broken because they are not S5000 !

Multiplayer is good and there are just some little fixes and updates to do here and there to be really good.

txalin
22-12-2017, 08:19
I've just about given up on any and ALL multiplayer. It never works right. Someone is always gaming the system. My score just goes down and down :) I will soon be excluded from many multiplayer races anyway, and to no fault of my own. Back to single player.

I must be that one gaming the system.... i just go up and up all the time, both safety and performance, am i a hacker and i dont know?

bmanic
22-12-2017, 09:00
Same here.. I must be gaming it as I'm constantly going up, both safety rating and race rating (or whatever it's called).

Atak Kat
22-12-2017, 10:02
I do have a bit of a conspiracy theory that might relate to this....
- Recently I've been in a lot of races that there are several players with U1500 (ish) ratings. Around 1500, but always U.
- And I've found that several of them are always putting in unbelievable qualifying times, and often going on to win the races. Almost impossible to catch.
- They are obviously good/experienced players that have spent a lot of time on setups, etc. But that doesn't really make sense for someone around U1500... Nor, someone who has been suffering the repeated onslaught of the -40 skill rating points that most of us have all suffered for the past few months being removed from the sessions (I'm barely clawing may way back from a low of 1280 now getting back close to 1400, but my safety rating almost at C level)
- at same time, it seems to me that they are often the ones that abandon/leave the race after the first lap if for some reason they end up in an accident and no longer have chance to just run-away with the win.

My conspiracy theory is that there are simply lots of experienced and good racers (and setup experts) just creating new profiles and 'starting over' in the on-line racing. It is what it is, I guess. Not really sure if that is better or worse for me when thinking about my skill rating and how it may influence it. But I'm in for the long-haul anyway.... not too worried about the "points" race by race.... sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it's really confusing. It's not perfect, but then again I'm not so worried about it. Much more interested in the safety rating and match-ups with similar drivers.

Sankyo
22-12-2017, 10:56
My conspiracy theory is that there are simply lots of experienced and good racers (and setup experts) just creating new profiles and 'starting over' in the on-line racing.
But why do such a thing? What does it accomplish? :confused:

Atak Kat
22-12-2017, 11:08
But why do such a thing? What does it accomplish? :confused:

I'm not really sure, actually. It seems really strange to me as well. That's why I call it 'conspiracy theory'... But I cannot figure out otherwise how I keep seeing U1500 drivers so strong. Every now and then, OK. But when the top 3 or 4 guys in the quali/race are all the same U1500.... something is strange.

Maybe their skill rating got so bad that they were having difficulty finding on-line lobbies to join? So they just start over?
And in the end, who cares? Just thought it was an interesting observation and I also cannot really understand why....

zedeeyen
22-12-2017, 11:23
I also see a lot of U1500 guys who are super fast, but my assumption is simpler: their license just didn't sync properly and so it's displaying the default value. Probably running off the same code that assigns the country flags a d seems to get them wrong 50% of the time :)

1Bad_VR-4
22-12-2017, 13:53
I do have a bit of a conspiracy theory that might relate to this....
- Recently I've been in a lot of races that there are several players with U1500 (ish) ratings. Around 1500, but always U.
- And I've found that several of them are always putting in unbelievable qualifying times, and often going on to win the races. Almost impossible to catch.
- They are obviously good/experienced players that have spent a lot of time on setups, etc. But that doesn't really make sense for someone around U1500... Nor, someone who has been suffering the repeated onslaught of the -40 skill rating points that most of us have all suffered for the past few months being removed from the sessions (I'm barely clawing may way back from a low of 1280 now getting back close to 1400, but my safety rating almost at C level)
- at same time, it seems to me that they are often the ones that abandon/leave the race after the first lap if for some reason they end up in an accident and no longer have chance to just run-away with the win.

My conspiracy theory is that there are simply lots of experienced and good racers (and setup experts) just creating new profiles and 'starting over' in the on-line racing. It is what it is, I guess. Not really sure if that is better or worse for me when thinking about my skill rating and how it may influence it. But I'm in for the long-haul anyway.... not too worried about the "points" race by race.... sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it's really confusing. It's not perfect, but then again I'm not so worried about it. Much more interested in the safety rating and match-ups with similar drivers.

They probably are...I thought about doing it myself, once I started running consistent again. I've been running AC/raceroom the last couple years but not multiplayer or league anymore, so I'm a little rusty. In the beginning before I had cars halfway setup, I wasn't consistent, my quali times were ok but I would always make stupid little mistakes and then end up in the mid of the pack, where you don't want to be because most of them will battle unfairly if trying to pass. Lots of frustration, disconnects, rage quits, many 30 point losses : D

I was down to 1220 but back to 1500 now and S class, so it's all good I suppose. I also became a little picky, avoiding the 20-30 packed lobbies, as people are usually more prone to smash to gain any advantage...10-15 is good.

Fight-Test
22-12-2017, 14:14
I never much cared what my rankings were but I know I was at 1300 before patch 3. I'm 1575 now so I think it's working much better than before. I think a lot of my point loss before patch was disconnects.

iggy
22-12-2017, 15:18
I suspect I know why this happens. When you are trying a new track, learning the lines etc, you generally go a lot slower than on tracks you already know well enough and are fast in them. The system compares how fast you go through a corner to some predefined time that is considered "normal" and gives you a penalty/slowdown only when you are faster than that. So if you are generally not up to speed yet in that track, then penalties are not that much of a problem. But when you gain confidence in the car/track combo and start to push/do good lap times, it's then when you're being heavily penalized for going slightly off track.

That's why to me, the system should be relative to your own potential, not to a generic potential speed. That way, even when you were just getting up to speed, you would know where the areas are that you should not be driving on , etc... If you don't get the penalties or warnings as your just learning, you won't REALLY learn just when you can go off and when you can't.


A separate thought about this... It would be very nice to be able to see sort of a log of all the off track incidents, with some information about the level of severity and such. Especially for a group/league play, where you may choose to relax or turn off the penalties during the race... but have it still record that the events occurred. A league , could periodically review people's driving, and perhaps discipline people after the fact ( Yeah, OK, so it sound like those reviews could turn into very tricky business ). But anyway, for me personally, while just practicing, I like to have penalties on, so I can at least know what to expect during a race with others, etc... but most of the time, I would rather not have to slow down for the penalty during my practice session, but would like a log off all violations I had and their severity.

Foofer37
22-12-2017, 15:28
Same here.. I must be gaming it as I'm constantly going up, both safety rating and race rating (or whatever it's called).

Well, we're all very happy for you. But obviously you can see that it's not this way for others. Perhaps you can offer a solution instead of telling us how awesome YOU are?

cpcdem
22-12-2017, 16:00
Well, we're all very happy for you. But obviously you can see that it's not this way for others. Perhaps you can offer a solution instead of telling us how awesome YOU are?

In order to offer a solution, it's important to fully understand the problem first. Can you share a video of a race you have, so people can offer their advice on what to do differently?

Foofer37
22-12-2017, 16:22
In order to offer a solution, it's important to fully understand the problem first. Can you share a video of a race you have, so people can offer their advice on what to do differently?

Oh my. Here we go. "Prove this and prove that" Look it's clear there is an issue as many have stated. We've also stated what the problem is. What do you need a video of? My rating before a race, then my rating after? Someone ramming me off the track? I just love the soooo typical "Can you like, you know, provide a video of that? I think your answer honestly is just a defensive one.
Whatever, who cares? Why do I waste my time on the forums, really. I guess something tells me "Ah, go ahead. Talk about it on the forums. Maybe you'll get an answer or be able to express a problem etc." But what a total waste of time. What a total. Waste. Of. Time.

Fight-Test
22-12-2017, 16:49
Oh my. Here we go. "Prove this and prove that" Look it's clear there is an issue as many have stated. We've also stated what the problem is. What do you need a video of? My rating before a race, then my rating after? Someone ramming me off the track? I just love the soooo typical "Can you like, you know, provide a video of that? I think your answer honestly is just a defensive one.
Whatever, who cares? Why do I waste my time on the forums, really. I guess something tells me "Ah, go ahead. Talk about it on the forums. Maybe you'll get an answer or be able to express a problem etc." But what a total waste of time. What a total. Waste. Of. Time.

So you don't want us to see your driving...that's all you had to say. The childish rant was unnecessary. Guys are trying to help.

Foofer37
22-12-2017, 17:03
So you don't want us to see your driving...that's all you had to say. The childish rant was unnecessary. Guys are trying to help.

Oh, you guys were trying to help. Ok, if you call it that. Ok. Provide a video, childish rant. These are usually also included to disqualify someone. So typical.

g33k hack3rs
22-12-2017, 17:29
I do have a bit of a conspiracy theory that might relate to this....
- Recently I've been in a lot of races that there are several players with U1500 (ish) ratings. Around 1500, but always U.
- And I've found that several of them are always putting in unbelievable qualifying times, and often going on to win the races. Almost impossible to catch.
- They are obviously good/experienced players that have spent a lot of time on setups, etc. But that doesn't really make sense for someone around U1500... Nor, someone who has been suffering the repeated onslaught of the -40 skill rating points that most of us have all suffered for the past few months being removed from the sessions (I'm barely clawing may way back from a low of 1280 now getting back close to 1400, but my safety rating almost at C level)
- at same time, it seems to me that they are often the ones that abandon/leave the race after the first lap if for some reason they end up in an accident and no longer have chance to just run-away with the win.

My conspiracy theory is that there are simply lots of experienced and good racers (and setup experts) just creating new profiles and 'starting over' in the on-line racing. It is what it is, I guess. Not really sure if that is better or worse for me when thinking about my skill rating and how it may influence it. But I'm in for the long-haul anyway.... not too worried about the "points" race by race.... sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it's really confusing. It's not perfect, but then again I'm not so worried about it. Much more interested in the safety rating and match-ups with similar drivers.

I can tell you that I was U1500 about 2 weeks ago. The reason for that is that I concentrated on career races and finally are now participating more in online races. Think I've done about 7 to 10 races to date and although my skill score hasn't gone up much I'm at a much higher safety rating. Not sure if everybody starts out at U1500 but that was the case for me. No gaming the system but I would expect to be up in the A group as I have minor contact from time to time but would consider myself a clean racer. Probably not the best out there but usually get on the podium in a small group and top 5 for bigger lobbies.

Konan
22-12-2017, 17:43
Oh my. Here we go. "Prove this and prove that" Look it's clear there is an issue as many have stated. We've also stated what the problem is. What do you need a video of? My rating before a race, then my rating after? Someone ramming me off the track? I just love the soooo typical "Can you like, you know, provide a video of that? I think your answer honestly is just a defensive one.
Whatever, who cares? Why do I waste my time on the forums, really. I guess something tells me "Ah, go ahead. Talk about it on the forums. Maybe you'll get an answer or be able to express a problem etc." But what a total waste of time. What a total. Waste. Of. Time.

Ever heard of the saying:"one picture says more than a thousand words"?
No need to get into "rant mode" when people are just trying to help...

Rapid FACR
22-12-2017, 18:30
Oh I'm not happy about that 😂

Rapid FACR
22-12-2017, 18:33
Perhaps SMS could programme in a big time penalty for front end damage to overcome this

Foofer37
22-12-2017, 18:58
Ever heard of the saying:"one picture says more than a thousand words"?
No need to get into "rant mode" when people are just trying to help...

247815

I didn't realize it was a rant. I'll be sure to just nod in the future.
And by the way, here is a picture of my rating. So now perhaps you can go into details as to what the problem might be. I would have sent a 'much requested' video, but in the end it would have looked the same. So what can you surmise from this?

Gysepy
22-12-2017, 19:27
I'm not really sure, actually. It seems really strange to me as well. That's why I call it 'conspiracy theory'... But I cannot figure out otherwise how I keep seeing U1500 drivers so strong. Every now and then, OK. But when the top 3 or 4 guys in the quali/race are all the same U1500.... something is strange.

Maybe their skill rating got so bad that they were having difficulty finding on-line lobbies to join? So they just start over?
And in the end, who cares? Just thought it was an interesting observation and I also cannot really understand why....

While i do understand your point, what you have got to remember is that Just because some people have a Letter + Number next to their gamertag is by no means a reflection of how fast they are. If you remove the Letter and Number would they be slower or faster?

In saying that however this Rating system has been nothing short of a disaster, it has come to the stage now that people are just simply opening lobbies with it turned off and i have had some fair share of good racing in them. Do not let the letter and number fool you into thinking because it is low or high that said player is bad or really good.

The problem with all of this is that people are starting to think that higher "letter" players are the fastest guys when in fact it is simply not true.

Dikikeys
22-12-2017, 20:15
I feel there ought to be an initial 'Track Learning Mode', where you get a license to race the track online, before you are allowed to inflict yourself in public rooms. GTS gets this semi-right, only unlocking tracks for you to use in single player mode (although online is open at the start) after you have beaten a (quite easy) time limit on different sectors of a track, then the full track.

This gives newcomers a leg up on track awareness right from the start.

If PC2 wants to represent itself as a 'sim', well, IRL you would not be allowed to participate in a race before you have your racing license and track pass.

But one advantage of the Track Learning Mode would be the opportunity to NOT have mandatory slowdowns, but a buzzer goes off each time you exceed penalized track limits. Maybe even a two-tone buzzer warning you as you get close to penalized and a different one for notice that, if on, you WOULD have been penalized. Then the Track License challenges are done with full penalties on.

But constant slow-downs for exceeding track limits not only makes the next few corners an exercise in wasted time (you aren't close to the correct speed to approach them, changing everything) but also negates the 'sim' aspect, as this practice never happens on real tracks.

SMS need to seriously revise the penalty system if they want the mantle of 'Sim'. General practice IRL involves a warning, a return of position if an exploit of limits makes for a pass, and then a drive-through after repeated warnings. This would also make online a) more realistic, and b) remove the pile-ups that occur as drivers try to pass those making unexpected slow-downs.

That track exploitation is well detected is a plus for the game, but penalties being so unrealistically enforced is a major negative.

cpcdem
23-12-2017, 00:02
Oh my. Here we go. "Prove this and prove that" Look it's clear there is an issue as many have stated. We've also stated what the problem is. What do you need a video of? My rating before a race, then my rating after? Someone ramming me off the track? I just love the soooo typical "Can you like, you know, provide a video of that? I think your answer honestly is just a defensive one.
Whatever, who cares? Why do I waste my time on the forums, really. I guess something tells me "Ah, go ahead. Talk about it on the forums. Maybe you'll get an answer or be able to express a problem etc." But what a total waste of time. What a total. Waste. Of. Time.

I think I was polite in my message to you and I was only trying to help. Let's ignore the attacking tone of your reply and explain further: The thing is that a lot of people find it easy enough to increase their safety ranking (and some say the same even about the performance ranking). There are some that even think it's way too easy doing that (improve safety ranking), and it should be made more difficult actually. Then, there are also a lot of people who say the complete opposite, that it is extremely difficult to rank up. Both group of people give their honest personal view on the matter of course, so we need to find out why their views are so much different.

It could be a lot different things, maybe there's a bug in the game and in some machines drivers get more penalized than in others. Maybe some people always join lobbies with a lot of wreckers, while others do the opposite. Maybe it's the actual driving of the different people that is very different than others. It could be due to different things, but the only way to find out is to see the actual races and draw conclusions out of that. So it's just an honest proposition, show a video of a race and people can give their opinions (edit: and suggestions!), based on concrete data..Don't do it if you think it's a waste of time, but please rest assured that there do exist people who spend some time in the forum instead of playing the game because they do genuinely like to help if they can.

bazzalaar
23-12-2017, 00:57
It's an in-perfect system. You just have to get on with it. My rating is currently A1605, 5% towards "S". I'll race in any lobby that seems to have an alright grid size. I do get a little concerned sometimes about the number of "U" rated drivers, but ultimately I've only come across a handful that are actually there to just cause issues. Fortunately in my case I don't particularly care too much for what my rating is. So if someone is a d*ck and tries to fire me off, or does, I have no problem returning the favour. I'll point out though, that I'd never go out of my way to be disruptive, I welcome a clean scrap. But also a firm believer in "an eye for an eye". Only really have to worry about this when you're taking part in a short race 5-6 laps and you lap people. Sometimes it's those ones that like to fire you off. On the whole though, I find most drivers be ok. Think some people worry too much about their driver ratings...

Charger
23-12-2017, 01:10
It's an in-perfect system. You just have to get on with it. My rating is currently A1605, 5% towards "S". I'll race in any lobby that seems to have an alright grid size. I do get a little concerned sometimes about the number of "U" rated drivers, but ultimately I've only come across a handful that are actually there to just cause issues. Fortunately in my case I don't particularly care too much for what my rating is. So if someone is a d*ck and tries to fire me off, or does, I have no problem returning the favour. I'll point out though, that I'd never go out of my way to be disruptive, I welcome a clean scrap. But also a firm believer in "an eye for an eye". Only really have to worry about this when you're taking part in a short race 5-6 laps and you lap people. Sometimes it's those ones that like to fire you off. On the whole though, I find most drivers be ok. Think some people worry too much about their driver ratings...

An 'Eye for an Eye' doesn't work though, you bring yourself to their level and that's where everyone does the same and hence it becomes a fuckfest, drive your own race, pass people and don't worry about the wreckers, they will always be behind you, if someone hits you get back on track and press on, forget them, you can kick them after race if they are a real dick.

bazzalaar
23-12-2017, 10:35
Yep very true. I don't really know how the kicking system works. I've only ever been able to kick someone when I've been host. The situations I'd apply that to, would be one I had a week or so ago. Race at road america, I was leading, caught a back marker, as I tried to pass he was weaving around and blocking, then when I did get alongside on the start finish straight he side swiped me. I went off he continued. Then the he fired off the next couple of cars that were behind me. So when I caught him back up rather than go through it again I just gave him a little love tap under brakes.

rich1e I
23-12-2017, 12:09
An 'Eye for an Eye' doesn't work though, you bring yourself to their level and that's where everyone does the same and hence it becomes a fuckfest, drive your own race, pass people and don't worry about the wreckers, they will always be behind you, if someone hits you get back on track and press on, forget them, you can kick them after race if they are a real dick.

Yes absolutely! Couldn't agree more. The Old Testament is not the solution xD

Iuse2stroke4cologne
24-12-2017, 19:29
5th post saying MP works great for me

Fight-Test
24-12-2017, 20:44
247815

I didn't realize it was a rant. I'll be sure to just nod in the future.
And by the way, here is a picture of my rating. So now perhaps you can go into details as to what the problem might be. I would have sent a 'much requested' video, but in the end it would have looked the same. So what can you surmise from this?

That you aren't very good. I guess we didn't need a video.

Foofer37
24-12-2017, 20:56
That you aren't very good. I guess we didn't need a video.

Thanks for the insult. That's pretty typical from the SIM community. I only just started playing multiplayer because I knew it would suck, but still have given it a shot. This is not a total reflection on the game (although there are issues with multiplayer) but more of a reflection on the losers that play in multiplayer. Obviously, such as yourself. My point was, if you have the capability to understand, that when someone rams you off the track the innocent party gets penalized. Thus showing big flaws in the penalty system. But hey, thanks for your stupid comment.

Mahjik
24-12-2017, 21:05
Perhaps SMS could programme in a big time penalty for front end damage to overcome this

That won't work... It will just have griefers slamming on their brakes in front of people to cause a front end collisions.

Fight-Test
24-12-2017, 21:38
Thanks for the insult. That's pretty typical from the SIM community. I only just started playing multiplayer because I knew it would suck, but still have given it a shot. This is not a total reflection on the game (although there are issues with multiplayer) but more of a reflection on the losers that play in multiplayer. Obviously, such as yourself. My point was, if you have the capability to understand, that when someone rams you off the track the innocent party gets penalized. Thus showing big flaws in the penalty system. But hey, thanks for your stupid comment.

Keep it coming, only a few more post like this and we can get rid if you. This one will be pretty easy. We have a passive aggressive pro on our hands. :))

Foofer37
24-12-2017, 21:50
Keep it coming, only a few more post like this and we can get rid if you. This one will be pretty easy. We have a passive aggressive pro on our hands. :))

What's your problem dude? You can dish it out but can't take it. I left associating with people such as yourself since 3rd grade. Now I would suggest you move out of your mom's house and get a job and a life. And get some friends while you're at it. I know this one will be real hard, but maybe someday. :)

Fight-Test
24-12-2017, 22:04
What's your problem dude? You can dish it out but can't take it. I left associating with people such as yourself since 3rd grade. Now I would suggest you move out of your mom's house and get a job and a life. And get some friends while you're at it. I know this one will be real hard, but maybe someday. :)

The good old "moms house, no friends get a life ". I knew it was close, there was nowhere but down. Lol.

Foofer37
24-12-2017, 23:06
To the moderators: I find this guy 'Fight-Test' (his tag says it all) to be a real nuisance. He obviously thrives on threats and seems to be hung up on having me banned. It sheds a bad light on SMS. I won't put up with it. And there's no need to send me 'Warnings' every five minutes for defending my position. How about sending a few 'Warnings' his way? Thanks :)

Konan
24-12-2017, 23:12
To the moderators: I find this guy 'Fight-Test' (his tag says it all) to be a real nuisance. He obviously thrives on threats and seems to be hung up on having me banned. It sheds a bad light on SMS. I won't put up with it. And there's no need to send me 'Warnings' every five minutes for defending my position. How about sending a few 'Warnings' his way? Thanks :)

How about you knock it off with insulting people?

Foofer37
24-12-2017, 23:32
How about you knock it off with insulting people?

Yes SIR! Thanks very much. I'm getting into an online race now anyway, so that Fight-Test can ram me off again. Lol!

Konan
25-12-2017, 00:51
Well if it's personal issues you guys have i'd suggest you take it to PM...no need to spread it all over the forum...that goes for both of you BTW...

hkraft300
25-12-2017, 00:52
247815
So what can you surmise from this?

That you are inexperienced online. I’m confident the blue strip means you don’t have many hours. Keep going: eventually you’ll get to A. It’s unrealistic to expect to be S2500 in 5 races.

I’m doubtful you’ll get to S Because you blame others for ramming you. To get to S, you have to proactively avoid contact and dangerous drivers. The onus, then, is on you. You can’t just blame the noobs and griefers, you have to spot them, avoid them, make your way past them. That’s what a safe driver does.

This is how I got to S. (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58359-Avoiding-Brutal-Driver&p=1444611&viewfull=1#post1444611)


Yes SIR! Thanks very much. I'm getting into an online race now anyway, so that Fight-Test can ram me off again. Lol!

Ease up with the “me vs world” victim mentality mate. Everyone trying to help despite your terrible attitude.

Foofer37
25-12-2017, 01:39
That you are inexperienced online. I’m confident the blue strip means you don’t have many hours. Keep going: eventually you’ll get to A. It’s unrealistic to expect to be S2500 in 5 races.

I’m doubtful you’ll get to S Because you blame others for ramming you. To get to S, you have to proactively avoid contact and dangerous drivers. The onus, then, is on you. You can’t just blame the noobs and griefers, you have to spot them, avoid them, make your way past them. That’s what a safe driver does.

This is how I got to S. (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58359-Avoiding-Brutal-Driver&p=1444611&viewfull=1#post1444611)



Ease up with the “me vs world” victim mentality mate. Everyone trying to help despite your terrible attitude.

Thanks for the psychology lesson. So funny actually. Lol.
So, let's explain it this way, since you guys don't get it: (Actually you do get it but just change the subject, make me as the problem, and divert the focus off of the real problem. And that's fine, you'll do that anyway, no matter what I say, so go for it.
The problem is, and many of us see it, is that there are ways to game the system. Such as pushing cars from behind, cutting certain corners, bumping, ramming etc. THIS is many online players' real skill. This is why they are so called GOOD. It's because they're ok with this kind of driving. The game lets you do it. And they know it. The rest of us that try to drive cleanly and fairly are just 'dummies' for not taking part in this also.

As usual, when I mention something like this, that is true, I get shut down. Why, because many on here don't want this fixed. If it were to get fixed it would end their ability to win and be competitive. So, instead, disqualify me as an idiot with mental issues. :) When you read through forums you basically see this same pattern over and over, no matter who makes the post. If it's true, points out an issue that strikes a nerve with those that push the limits, it gets shut down.

So whatever. I made my usual mistake of..... Wait for it..... Posting anything on the forum.

hkraft300
25-12-2017, 02:26
:hopelessness:

You're testing everyone's patience with your attitude. If you weren't such an a*hole you might get a better response and treatment everywhere. Goes back to your me vs world attitude. Stop being such a victim cry baby and you'll realise not everyone is out to get you.

You're welcome.

Back on topic:


...
The problem is, and many of us see it, is that there are ways to game the system. Such as pushing cars from behind, cutting certain corners, bumping, ramming etc. THIS is many online players' real skill. This is why they are so called GOOD. It's because they're ok with this kind of driving. The game lets you do it. And they know it. The rest of us that try to drive cleanly and fairly are just 'dummies' for not taking part in this also.

There's no fool proof way to stop this behaviour. I've seen this behaviour from B drivers. I've had this behaviour accidentally (they apologised) from A drivers.
I've seen this behaviour in real life! There are real race drivers who will do this and admit to it openly. How's anyone gaming that system? I have NEVER seen this behaviour from S drivers, but I know it happens.

So how do you work the system to your favour? How do you avoid this behaviour: don't jam yourself between 2 cars going into T1 then blame everyone else for crashing into you. Avoid the potential crash.

Put yourself 3-wide into T1 you're asking for it. It's simple. It's your fault.



As usual, when I mention something like this, ... *boohoo-woe-is-me-rant*

:rolleyes:

Foofer37
25-12-2017, 02:40
:hopelessness:

You're testing everyone's patience with your attitude. If you weren't such an a*hole you might get a better response and treatment everywhere. Goes back to your me vs world attitude. Stop being such a victim cry baby and you'll realise not everyone is out to get you.

You're welcome.

Back on topic:



There's no fool proof way to stop this behaviour. I've seen this behaviour from B drivers. I've had this behaviour accidentally (they apologised) from A drivers.
I've seen this behaviour in real life! There are real race drivers who will do this and admit to it openly. How's anyone gaming that system? I have NEVER seen this behaviour from S drivers, but I know it happens.

So how do you work the system to your favour? How do you avoid this behaviour: don't jam yourself between 2 cars going into T1 then blame everyone else for crashing into you. Avoid the potential crash.

Put yourself 3-wide into T1 you're asking for it. It's simple. It's your fault.



:rolleyes:

Yep, my fault. Thanks. Now, moderate your own post because you called me an a**hole. Oh no wait...it's a one way street around here so that won't happen. We get it. And stop testing my patience. In the end, it's a game. A toy.

Mahjik
25-12-2017, 03:10
Because you all can't play nice together...