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LeoNTheSickOne
10-12-2017, 10:58
Alright so i have this problem when trying to use hard and soft slicks with the GT cars. I havent tried it with the other cars, perhaps its the same shit.
Basically what happens is that when the tyres are dead cold out of the pits. That is when i can drive the living shit out of my car. The grip is superb and i can really push the car in every corner and get the best lap time. But after only 1-2 laps when the tyres are warm it just drives so much slower. Take Imola for an example i sat at imola with my Ford GTE trying to figure out why the tyres wouldnt work for like 5 hours. When the tyres were cold i could do 1.43 laptimes. But after 1-2 laps i could only manage to do very high 1.45 or 1.46 laptimes. The car is massively understeering especially in that slow 180 corner. And its in general just much less grip. The temperature is fine, its between 80-95 celcius. Ive tried to use different PSI to see what changes. Having the default PSI does not work. Putting the PSI up so that the PSI reaches 28 psi after like 5-6 laps wont work. I just dont get it, its the same story for both soft slicks and hard slicks. Is anyone else having this problem? There is nothing wrong with the setup as i had taken the setup used to put down the world record on imola. I never get this problem in assetto corsa etc. In assetto corsa when the tyres are cold its harder to drive. In PC2 its faster???

hkraft300
10-12-2017, 11:19
Try ~25 psi hot for GT cars, soft or hard.

Also watch your brake temps. Don't get them too hot.

dhfool
10-12-2017, 11:21
Wrong setup. Maybe good for one fast lap, but bad for longterm racing in hot conditions. Your tyres are overheating and thats why you experience understeering and then your tyres are geting more heat from sliding... closed circle. You need to get more grip on your front tyres. Try to lift your rear or lower your front.Try to stiffen rear anti-roll bar... You need testing your setups for 5+ laps. After 5 laps your tyres are hottest and they are starting to slowly cool down about few degrees. When you cure understeer, then your tyres will no longer be overheated. Sorry for my english :indecisiveness:

dhfool
10-12-2017, 11:28
Try ~25 psi hot for GT cars, soft or hard.

Also watch your brake temps. Don't get them too hot.
I have this problem few days before. It is not something that is related to tyre pressure. Simply in Parabolica and in Lesmo left front tyre is overheating from too much load and slidig.

Keena
10-12-2017, 11:55
Might have to manage them a bit then possibly? There's probably a setup solution but I've found a reduction of just a few mph on corner entry can often cure this with minimal time loss.

Zaskarspants
10-12-2017, 12:04
As mentioned above it may be a set up issue. I tried the Ford gte at Imola practice, hards, 80f / 110f temps. Std Loose set up, no assists.

No issues. Tyres started at 21psi and warmed to 25 to 26 psi over three laps and gave more grip as expected. Temps were just over green as I tend to give the tyres a hard time.

edit.

Laps started 1.51, down to 1.47 after 8 laps.

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 12:57
Finally you guys noticed, took long enough. I been asking about this in discussion thread without answer. Everyone complaining online... here no one mentions anything unless gfx or ai usually, so glad you bring up the subject.

There is no setup solution for soft they begin with grip from stone cold, after 1 lap there is no mid corner or exit grip. After 2/3 laps while still in operating temp they literally go straight on if try to attack any corner, this then causes massive temp spike and everything becomes as much fun as pulling my own nails out. There is no temp that these tyres work at, seems to be related to the lack of any grip to begin with and shredding tyre or something. I have tried extreme setups for over steer they just continue to plough straight on.

Hard's are going in right direction, before I found them unusable on the M6, now they are very nice to run on this car, they do tend to overheat a little on said car still. Problem is on something like the Nissan GTR they turn to molten lava regardless of extreme setup e.g. doing everything possible to reduce temps. They are also working to well in the cold and are the go to tyre for everything in GT3. The soft's need some serious attention, they are not even an option, the hard's need to come down in temperature ever so slightly and be of no use where the soft's should work. Currently in the 20 degrees track temps we are running hard's with little more down force.

Is not all bad the hard's are really nice when they in the window (40-50 degrees temp), really, really enjoy these tyres now so don't change them too much please. If anything just need the soft's to be the same kind of drive in the 20-30 temps.

hkraft300
10-12-2017, 13:20
Ye it's normal. Parabolica cooks the tire, the next straight cools it. If the soft tires are losing grip/wearing fast, switch to the hard compound. Problem solved.

That's how it is intended by the game designers for the tires to work.

And what he said:


Might have to manage them a bit then possibly? There's probably a setup solution but I've found a reduction of just a few mph on corner entry can often cure this with minimal time loss.

You can't fix everything with tuning. Sometimes it's just how you drive.

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 13:33
So is intended for Hard's to be better in all situations, and the soft being a non option. Rather get official comment than someone guessing what the DEVS are thinking. From Dougs comment earlier regarding tires his goal was only to close a gap that was left between the 2 tires and track temps... there was a middle ground where no tyre worked well.

The Soft's were the go to tyre before, so i can't imagine it was meant to make soft redundant and Hard's the only tyre to work now. Is not a case of a few mph makes all fine either maybe go do some proper testing before jumping to conclusions. The problem becomes you cannot use any throttle on mid corner and exit. Also we seem to have skipped past the bit where even hard's will refuse to work on some cars.

Maybe take a GTR to Nurburgring in 40+ temp and make it work for you :)

Keena
10-12-2017, 13:36
There is a table somewhere which shows which tyre is good for which situation and ambient/ track temp. By the way, Just an FYI is that you cannot apply an understanding of how Formula 1 tyres work to other formula types and classes. F1 is an unusual situation regarding tyres.

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 13:41
I fail to see where F1 was mentioned?

Keena
10-12-2017, 13:42
I fail to see where F1 was mentioned?

It wasn't. "Just an FYI".

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 13:45
I'm well aware of the chart which doesn't represent what we have in game, I'm almost 400 hours played and I'm talking from hours upon hours of testing. Along with long discussions with other drivers who are among most experienced also.

hkraft300
10-12-2017, 13:47
Ye, AFAIK it is intended for the hard tires to be the main compound. Since nobody does winter /night races I guess the soft are redundant.
Funny the soft tires work great for me now, even better than last patch. They grip over 100℃, just wears out fast at that temp.

Which cars are you talking about?
GTR GT3 summer, Nur GP? Not much a challenge to make the hard tires work there.

Keena
10-12-2017, 13:48
I'm well aware of the chart which doesn't represent what we have in game, I'm almost 400 hours played and I'm talking from hours upon hours of testing.

Good luck. If you need any help in the future, just knock. ;)

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 13:55
As mentioned I tried the soft in the 20 degrees track temps they work the same in all conditions, they don't have enough enough grip at anytime (out lap aside) this is what is causing the issue with those, I believe. With the hard's certain cars will not manage to maintain the required temps to run those which brings on huge under steer and snap over steer, I am literally afraid of the Accel pedal at any speed after a few laps of Nurburgring with GTR.

At the moment is silly to run cold night races as, your running Monza for instance with hards on a 1/4 downforce, which is faster than Softs with a normal Monza setup.

Pete Gaimari
10-12-2017, 13:58
This is realistic to real racing. Push a racing tire too hard on the early laps and you'll burn them up faster. I'm not sure this is modeled in PC2, but if it is it's your problem.

Do you want a sim instead of a game? This is part of it. (If it's modeled)

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 14:05
So again your saying that the tires shouldn't work in their operating window...yes?

I cannot explain it any clearer than I explained it. If it was simulated when it gets cold we should swap to the correct tyre, not continue with the wrong tyre which works better. Come back with facts from extensive testing. I understand why the other guys won't come here and post now.

hkraft300
10-12-2017, 14:07
As mentioned I tried the soft in the 20 degrees track temps they work the same in all conditions, they don't have enough enough grip at anytime (out lap aside) this is what is causing the issue with those, I believe. With the hard's certain cars will not manage to maintain the required temps to run those which brings on huge under steer and snap over steer, I am literally afraid of the Accel pedal at any speed after a few laps of Nurburgring with GTR.

At the moment is silly to run cold night races as, your running Monza for instance with hards on a 1/4 downforce, which is faster than Softs with a normal Monza setup.

They don’t have enough grip?

Lol

Soft tires are gripping at 100c now, just wearing out quicker.

Your attitude seems like noob ranting. If you’re serious, you’d provide some screenshots/video/ data as evidence of a potential problem.

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 14:13
Well I posted in patch 3.0 discussion twice, as am willing to do so if is needed. As stated there I won't waste my time if is something they are aware of. There no reply as of yet, hence I not done the work with videos yet.

I saw this thread, and thought ok I post here.

Anyone who knows me, knows I been around for a long time and certainly no noob... certainly not ranting, I come after many hours of testing, having read all the posts regarding tires, not jumping to inaccurate guessing game of conclusions. Hopefully a DEV will see this no point discussing to those with closed mind set.

hkraft300
10-12-2017, 14:15
... Hopefully a DEV will see this no point discussing to those with closed mind set.

:applause:

Good luck.

Keena
10-12-2017, 14:15
400 hours in game developing 'racing' skills that don't work, 30 seconds in real life developing 'people' skills that don't work. As above, good luck. :)

hkraft300
10-12-2017, 14:17
400 hours in game developing 'racing' skills that don't work, 30 seconds in real life developing 'people' skills that don't work. As above, good luck. :)

Let’s not jump to conclusions there without many hours of testing.

Keena
10-12-2017, 14:18
Hehehe :)

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 14:20
Guy posts about an issue you tell him it is about how he drives and give contradicting answers. Yea my people skills are terrible. Thankfully I do check things before I post so I have something going for me. :p

MaximusN
10-12-2017, 14:30
Just a question, but are all tyres too hot or just the fronts or even one front? If the fronts get too hot you might want to dial in(just) a bit more oversteer in your setup. And I know you guys know, but I'm going to say it anyway. Don't fight oversteer with more steering angle, because that will worsen the problem. Not only the current corner but every consecutive corner after that(because heat-> more understeer-> you steer more-> more heat).

Zaskarspants
10-12-2017, 14:33
So again your saying that the tires shouldn't work in their operating window...yes?

I cannot explain it any clearer than I explained it. If it was simulated when it gets cold we should swap to the correct tyre, not continue with the wrong tyre which works better. Come back with facts from extensive testing. I understand why the other guys won't come here and post now.

There really is no call for that.

Also, I do not recognize your descriptions of the game as being close to what I experience. Maybe something else is causing this problem for you ?

hkraft300
10-12-2017, 14:35
Guy posts about an issue you tell him it is about how he drives and give contradicting answers. Yea my people skills are terrible. Thankfully I do check things before I post so I have something going for me. :p

Really? Here are examples of your great people skills:


Finally you guys noticed, took long enough...


So is intended for Hard's to be better in all situations, and the soft being a non option. Rather get official comment than someone guessing what the DEVS are thinking.



I'm well aware of the chart which doesn't represent what we have in game, I'm almost 400 hours played and I'm talking from hours upon hours of testing. Along with long discussions with other drivers who are among most experienced also.


So again your saying that the tires shouldn't work in their operating window...yes?

I cannot explain it any clearer than I explained it. If it was simulated when it gets cold we should swap to the correct tyre, not continue with the wrong tyre which works better. Come back with facts from extensive testing. I understand why the other guys won't come here and post now.

Edit: silly me, almost forgot this one.


... Hopefully a DEV will see this no point discussing to those with closed mind set.

davidt33
10-12-2017, 14:37
......There is nothing wrong with the setup as i had taken the setup used to put down the world record on imola. I never get this problem in assetto corsa etc. In assetto corsa when the tyres are cold its harder to drive. In PC2 its faster???

This could be the crux of the problem right there.
In case you missed it, Ian Bell advised with the release of the latest patch 3 (if you've installed it that is)....he advised to NOT USE old setups bro....since they may conflict with updated settings etc applied to cars, inclusive of updates to tracks and weather conditions, in the new patch. His advice was to delete old saved setups prior to installing the new patch (i.e: Do not use). If you installed the patch without deleting the old setups prior, then I would imagine you should delete the old setups following installation of said patch.

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 14:37
On the GTR example I gave on hard's, also on some other GT3 is all tires. With the soft there is lack of grip regardless of tire temp, which makes the temp sky rocket after a few laps (due to scrubbing). I tried everything with the soft's .. adding oversteer moving all weight to front, there is just a total lack of grip up front (in front engine cars, which is the type I personally drive). I heard many complaints from the "pro drivers" also about other classes but cannot speak for those and this is a GT tyre thread anyways, so I'll stay on topic.

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 14:39
HKraft no interest in your petty argument, I came here for an informed discussion... give a rest

Zaskarspants
10-12-2017, 14:40
HKraft no interest in your petty argument, I came here for an informed discussion... give a rest

I think people here are trying to help you out.

It might help if you chilled out a bit and stopped being so caustic.

MaximusN
10-12-2017, 14:42
I think people here are trying to help you out.

It might help if you chilled out a bit and stopped being so caustic.

Exactly, discussions tend to stay more informative if people don't try to continuosly put down and diss other people. ;)

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 14:44
I was replying to a guy who was suggesting I wanted an arcade game not a simulator... anyway moving on.

OP is correct soft's are fastest on out lap, when not warmed at all. Hard's are opposite though. He describes the problem correctly and all old setups are deleted on my system.

hkraft300
10-12-2017, 14:45
HKraft no interest in your petty argument, I came here for an informed discussion...

Examples of informed discussion:


.... There is no temp that these tyres work at, seems to be related to the lack of any grip to begin with and shredding tyre or something. I have tried extreme setups for over steer they just continue to plough straight on.



....
. The problem becomes you cannot use any throttle on mid corner and exit. Also we seem to have skipped past the bit where even hard's will refuse to work on some cars.


..., they don't have enough enough grip at anytime (out lap aside) this is what is causing the issue with those, I believe. With the hard's certain cars will not manage to maintain the required temps to run those which brings on huge under steer and snap over steer, I am literally afraid of the Accel pedal at any speed after a few laps of Nurburgring with GTR.


:applause:

hkraft300
10-12-2017, 14:47
I think people here are trying to help you out.
.

No, sorry. I have a closed mind set.

Keena
10-12-2017, 14:49
This could be the crux of the problem right there.
In case you missed it, Ian Bell advised with the release of the latest patch 3 (if you've installed it that is)....he advised to NOT USE old setups bro....since they may conflict with updated settings etc applied to cars, inclusive of updates to tracks and weather conditions, in the new patch. His advice was to delete old saved setups prior to installing the new patch (i.e: Do not use). If you installed the patch without deleting the old setups prior, then I would imagine you should delete the old setups following installation of said patch.

@Binarywibble
I think it might be time for you to go and do another 'testing' session. If it turns out that this was your problem, please have the courage to come back here and admit it. Perhaps an apology for labelling people who are trying to help you as having 'closed minds' might be a little too much to hope for, given your obviously superior abilities compared to us mere mortals ;)

Zaskarspants
10-12-2017, 14:49
No, sorry, I’ve stopped that.

Yes I saw, I guess I am just the optimistic type, but yea.

MaximusN
10-12-2017, 14:49
I dunno, but my cars don't understeer violently(if at all).

One thing to test is start with the default loose setup for that car. Like someone before said things changed after patch 3.0. And make sure stability control and traction control are off, because they both can cause irritating understeer.

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 14:56
Which GT3 cars are you driving? Maybe I go check one of your GT3's out as I said I've only been using the front engine GT3's might be the issue?

Pretty sure is not the issue but, more than willing to test.

Zaskarspants
10-12-2017, 15:04
Which GT3 cars are you driving? Maybe I go check one of your GT3's out as I said I've only been using the front engine GT3's might be the issue?

Pretty sure is not the issue but, more than willing to test.

I am surprised that after 400 hours of testing that you never tried fr gt3 cars.
I don't think that is your problem as I after my measly 160 hours of crap testing have driven every gt3 car and the mid and front engine cars are not so vastly different to cause the issues you describe.

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 15:09
whats an FR? I am driving front engine rear wheel drive if that's what your saying as all GT3 are rear wheel. I tried them all pre patch, of course I stuck with a car I had issues with for the testing to try and fix it. I am asking him because there is several non front engine cars and if there is a specific one that is working on softs it saves my time running laps in all.

MaximusN
10-12-2017, 15:20
I drive the M6 if I drive GT3 and I overheat the rears more than the fronts. But that's without TC. If I did use that (on a high level) I think I'd heat up the fronts(because too much TC leads to lethal understeer out of the corner).

Zaskarspants
10-12-2017, 15:26
whats an FR? I am driving front engine rear wheel drive if that's what your saying as all GT3 are rear wheel. I tried them all pre patch, of course I stuck with a car I had issues with for the testing to try and fix it. I am asking him because there is several non front engine cars and if there is a specific one that is working on softs it saves my time running laps in all.

My bad, I got car types wrong way round, but the rest of my last comment is unaffected.

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 15:34
Ok so we talking about the same car, I have tested this car now on softs for about 20hrs since patch. hmmmm

My lap times are very fast also, so this is weird we have conflicting views (because to me and others the problem is very obvious), sadly these same people avoid the forum here. My opinion as I said is fully tested and discussed with guys doing similar hours or lap times. Maybe I can try one of your M6 setups just in case you found some sorcery :)

I use very high TC (30-50 depending on track) never comes in basically unless I get very aggressive on a curb for instance.

Zaskarspants
10-12-2017, 15:41
Ok so we talking about the same car, I have tested this car now on softs for about 20hrs since patch. hmmmm

My lap times are very fast also, so this is weird we have conflicting views (because to me and others the problem is very obvious), sadly these same people avoid the forum here. My opinion as I said is fully tested and discussed with guys doing similar hours or lap times. Maybe I can try one of your M6 setups just in case you found some sorcery :)

No, it's just you. Most of us here are mystified by why you are experiencing these issues and are trying to help you.

As to suggested set ups, I use the standard loose set up with no assists and do not experience the challenges you do.

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 15:57
Go set a lap time on soft's (and post) pretty sure I will beat it (and post), that does not change my current view with trying extreme setups for over steer and weight to front, that the soft tyre is working exactly as OP describes. Rather than continue pointless comments add something to the discussion... I am open minded enough to try anything informative and tested you add to this discussion e.g. a working soft tyre setup for cold conditions. I would love to be proved wrong and have the two tyres I can run with.

So are you willing to give the setup info that me and many others cannot find that makes the soft's work in their operating temps? Although now I look me and most of others including OP are on PC and your on Xbox, so whether it would be relevant or not is another question.

MaximusN
10-12-2017, 15:58
Ok so we talking about the same car, I have tested this car now on softs for about 20hrs since patch. hmmmm

My lap times are very fast also, so this is weird we have conflicting views (because to me and others the problem is very obvious), sadly these same people avoid the forum here. My opinion as I said is fully tested and discussed with guys doing similar hours or lap times. Maybe I can try one of your M6 setups just in case you found some sorcery :)

I use very high TC (30-50 depending on track) never comes in basically unless I get very aggressive on a curb for instance.

In any kind of warm weather don't use softs.

Softs and hards compare like winter and summer tyres(although less far apart). A good winter tyre compound won't work in the summer and a good summer compound won't work in the winter. Ofcourse the thread is different too, but most comes down to winter tyres smearing in the summer and summer tyres(especially those eco turds) turning into rock in the winter. IT's the same here. So don't look for softs for extra grip on a warm track. Yeah maybe the first lap when they're cold. After that they'll just smear and run hot.

So if you overheat and understeer on the softs it's still too warm for them, just don't use them in that situation.

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 16:03
I am asking for a cold soft tyre setup that works in cold, which is faster consistently than hards in cold with more down force. Just to re clarify. If someone has such a thing please post and we continue this discussion with something to discuss. Else we go round in circles.

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 16:07
Also I am interested in a setup that makes the GTR usable on hards on twisty track without all four tires turning to mush. That does comparable lap times to the rest of the field. Anyone provide those two things, which seem unobtainable to me would be much appreciated.


thanks in advance.

EDIT:

In the mean time when I have some spare hours I will make the vid that shows the issue described exactly by the OP

Zaskarspants
10-12-2017, 16:17
I cant help you any more.

kevin kirk
10-12-2017, 16:17
I havnt tested since the last patch but i have been racing with tire temps super hot and smoking coming from them in the rear view but they dont actually wear any faster or feel like they are over heating. I even have tire to spare at the end of the run. I only use the hard tire tho. Put on hard tires, with the default pressures and just ignore the temps and smoke rendering and they should indeed last a run with no problem. At least for me the do anyway. Like i said i havnt tested since the last xbox patch a day or two ago

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 16:23
The smoke is a bug, ignore it as you say. An the hard tyre problem seems to be with some cars only.

Yes hard's are the goto tyre in any conditions post patch.

Thanks anyway.

MaximusN
10-12-2017, 16:40
Also I am interested in a setup that makes the GTR usable on hards on twisty track without all four tires turning to mush. That does comparable lap times to the rest of the field. Anyone provide those two things, which seem unobtainable to me would be much appreciated.


thanks in advance.

EDIT:

In the mean time when I have some spare hours I will make the vid that shows the issue described exactly by the OP
Try taking out(so closer to 0) .2 or .3 camber front and rear. That helped me gain more than a second on Laguna Seca. And play with tyre pressure a bit. Don't forget to fully open the brake ducts too, brakes heat the rims and therefor the tyres.

Oh and try opening up the rear diff. It's at 50/25(power/coast, raise the numbers to get less locking) which will lead to understeer eating up the fronts and rears. I hate high coast diffs...

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 17:43
Yea is pretty much what I use in all GT3 cars, although I go more extreme in camber after much testing. Minimal camber is best.

I also test the default setup which I found completely unusable pre patch and just as bad post. So I am not surprised people are complaining of over steer and not understanding what I am saying if using that. Using the Default my times go from among the fastest in M6 GT3 to so much over steer I cannot get past a corner without spinning. Engine braking 1 + rear brake bias 54 + TC a 10% is enough to put anyone off the game from first impressions on this alone. I don't purchase a sim to not use setups so was unaware it was still like this.

Engine braking should be more towards minimum, TC above .14 and I guess brake bias is more preference although 54 seems very extreme. Loose was severe understatement the, car was literally trying to kill me.

I just tested the soft at 14 degrees track and is almost usable whilst still being enjoyable there. The same under steer occurs but more inconsistently and less, and also less in the beginning (so it is actually pointing towards temps, even though I had this problem also within the temp range of the soft). Becoming very noticeable after 4 laps (compared to as soon as 2 laps in the 20's). So I have narrowed it down to the early 20's - 30's where the main issue is that is causing problems. I see on the chart there is a crossover in the 30's, but the crossover is going into the very low 20's currently.

Anyway I'll try to get the vids done tomorrow.

MaximusN
10-12-2017, 17:50
Yea is pretty much what I use in all GT3 cars, although I go more extreme in camber after much testing. Minimum camber is best.

I also test the default setup which I found completely unusable pre patch and just as bad post. So I am not surprised people are complaining of over steer and not understanding what I am saying if using that. Using the Default my times go from among the fastest in M6 GT3 to so much over steer I cannot get past a corner without spinning. Engine braking 1 + rear brake bias 54 + TC a 10% is enough to put anyone off the game from first impressions on this alone. I don't purchase a sim to not use setups so was unaware it was still like this.

Engine braking should be more towards maximum, TC above .14 and I guess brake bias is more preference although 54 seems very extreme. Loose was severe understatement the, car was literally trying to kill me.

I just tested the soft at 14 degrees track and is almost usable whilst still being enjoyable there. The same under steer occurs but more inconsistently and less, and also less in the beginning (so it is actually pointing towards temps, even though I had this problem also within the temp range of the soft). Becoming very noticeable after 4 laps (compared to as soon as 2 laps in the 20's). So I have narrowed it down to the early 20's - 30's where the main issue is that is causing problems. I see on the chart there is a crossover in the 30's, but the crossover is going into the very low 20's currently.

Anyway I'll try to get the vids done tomorrow.

I was talking about the GTR like you said in your post(I hope you meant Nissan?). And yes the M6 is a bit pointy, that's what I like about it. The GTR(I didn't drive it before) feels like a dead duck. Even if it's not understeering I'll have to get more oversteer in the setup because it's not really fun(for my driving style anyway). And I don't even understand why people would bother using TC with it, because it needs un-traction control ;)

binarywarrior
10-12-2017, 18:00
Sorry first line is for you, second paragraph in response to Zaskarspants regarding how the default setup is great for soft in cold and the rest is just update on my findings. I don't use forum much so my etiquette is rusty :)

Yea back to the Nissan will cover that in vid also, but yes I use this kind of setup through all the GT3's they are very similar. As I said before I tried more extreme stuff to stop the tires melting without any luck. I need to go back to the patch notes... I am guessing Doug raised all the temps to close the gap that existed before between compounds. Although is still weird that the soft is best stone cold... I think this is what might have confused me, into thinking was not temp related... still does :p

hkraft300
10-12-2017, 21:48
Go set a lap time on soft's (and post) pretty sure I will beat it (and post), that does not change my current view with trying extreme setups for over steer and weight to front, that the soft tyre is working exactly as OP describes. Rather than continue pointless comments add something to the discussion... I am open minded enough to try anything informative and tested you add to this discussion e.g. a working soft tyre setup for cold conditions. I would love to be proved wrong and have the two tyres I can run with.


Oh look. Guy tries to help, you start a pissing contest.



Yes hard's are the goto tyre in any conditions post patch.
.

In any condition?


Yea is pretty much what I use in all GT3 cars, although I go more extreme in camber after much testing. Minimum camber is best.

I also test the default setup which I found completely unusable pre patch and just as bad post. So I am not surprised people are complaining of over steer and not understanding what I am saying if using that. Using the Default my times go from among the fastest in M6 GT3 to so much over steer I cannot get past a corner without spinning. Engine braking 1 + rear brake bias 54 + TC a 10% is enough to put anyone off the game from first impressions on this alone. I don't purchase a sim to not use setups so was unaware it was still like this.

Engine braking should be more towards minimum, TC above .14 and I guess brake bias is more preference although 54 seems very extreme. Loose was severe understatement the, car was literally trying to kill me.

I just tested the soft at 14 degrees track and is almost usable whilst still being enjoyable there. The same under steer occurs but more inconsistently and less, and also less in the beginning (so it is actually pointing towards temps, even though I had this problem also within the temp range of the soft). Becoming very noticeable after 4 laps (compared to as soon as 2 laps in the 20's). So I have narrowed it down to the early 20's - 30's where the main issue is that is causing problems. I see on the chart there is a crossover in the 30's, but the crossover is going into the very low 20's currently.

Anyway I'll try to get the vids done tomorrow.

I thought you’d done “many hours” of testing :rolleyes:

M6 GT3 (in fact an6 GT3 car on default) has too much oversteer? :glee: that’s a joke if I’d heard one.

MaximusN
10-12-2017, 22:37
M6 GT3 (in fact an6 GT3 car on default) has too much oversteer? :glee: that’s a joke if I’d heard one.
Totally agree. It drives like a dream. The only downside: it's slower than that boring red car(which is fast but not fun to drive).

hkraft300
10-12-2017, 23:59
Totally agree. It drives like a dream. The only downside: it's slower than that boring red car(which is fast but not fun to drive).

Have you tried the 488 post patch? It feels like a GT1 /pseudo-prototype. Best handling car now, easily. Doesn’t feel beastly like the M6.

TrueValue
11-12-2017, 07:49
Hey guys,

since Patch 3.0 my front tires in the Ferrari 488 GT3 overheat/ wear a lot.
Did a race in Algarve, track temp 48°C, after lap 1 the left front had over 125°C. That should be way to much? I also struggle on other tracks, and it always seems to be the left front and sometimes the left rear tire. They overheat, or even if they don't overheat they wear pretty fast. After about 5-6 laps on every track they are over 20% down.
It is better with the stable setup, than the loose setup. I changed nothing except tire pressures, so that I end up at about 1.85 bar after a couple of laps.

I already tried out some tips to avoid overheating but they don't really help.

I am quite new to simracing, so I don't know, if 20% tire loss after 6 laps is appropriate or not? If not, what am I doing wrong? I try to not kill the tire too much, brake early, get a nice apex and then get up to speed again, but it won't really help.

Help would be much appreciated.
Regards.

Invincible
11-12-2017, 08:35
Hey guys,

since Patch 3.0 my front tires in the Ferrari 488 GT3 overheat/ wear a lot.
Did a race in Algarve, track temp 48°C, after lap 1 the left front had over 125°C. That should be way to much? I also struggle on other tracks, and it always seems to be the left front and sometimes the left rear tire. They overheat, or even if they don't overheat they wear pretty fast. After about 5-6 laps on every track they are over 20% down.
It is better with the stable setup, than the loose setup. I changed nothing except tire pressures, so that I end up at about 1.85 bar after a couple of laps.

I already tried out some tips to avoid overheating but they don't really help.

I am quite new to simracing, so I don't know, if 20% tire loss after 6 laps is appropriate or not? If not, what am I doing wrong? I try to not kill the tire too much, brake early, get a nice apex and then get up to speed again, but it won't really help.

Help would be much appreciated.
Regards.

Which tire did you use? Hard, I hope. And yes 125°C is too much. I think you're scrubbing the tire too much in right hand corners. Maybe reduce the tire pressure to reduce the scrubbing? Or get more grip on the front by softening the front sway bar.
20% wear over 6 laps in Algarve is a bit too much for hard tires, and a tiny wee bit too much for softs. But isn't extraordinarily high, given the long high speed right hand corners.

hkraft300
11-12-2017, 08:59
What he said^

At Algarve I think a good hot pressure would be 1.8 bar or a bit less, 1.75 maybe.
The soft tire will melt at that high track temp. Use the hard tire.
The loose setup should be a bit better there. Reduce toe close to 0, maybe increase camber.
You should also try a different line/approach to the last 2 corners: they're the biggest killers of that FL tire.

2 words: tire management! Critical with the new patch.

Top tip: increase steering ratio :)

TrueValue
11-12-2017, 09:04
Thank you both! I used the hard tire. I will try out your tips and hope they will work.

But even on other tracks like Algarve, f.e Hockenheimring or Long Beach with 28°C track temp, the tires are about 20% down after 6 laps. Feels wrong to me.

hkraft300
11-12-2017, 10:45
Do you have tire wear set to accelerated? (Gameplay settings for offline)

I'm getting noticeable tire wear on soft tires on a hot track. I raced the M6 GT3 on hard tires at a ~40℃ Spa, 10 laps had <20% wear.

dhfool
11-12-2017, 10:57
Guys, try to backup and delete whole Setup folder in your C:\Users\username\Documents\Project CARS 2\savegame\68983174\project cars 2 directory. Not only what is in tuningsetups folder but whole tuningsetups folder...

CoproManiac
11-12-2017, 11:03
Guys, try to backup and delete whole Setup folder in your /user/projectcars2/ directory. Not only what is in setup folder but whole folder. I am not sure with exact path to that folder...

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58008-Attention-Car-Setup-Saving-after-Patch-3-0

TrueValue
11-12-2017, 11:59
Do you have tire wear set to accelerated? (Gameplay settings for offline)

I'm getting noticeable tire wear on soft tires on a hot track. I raced the M6 GT3 on hard tires at a ~40℃ Spa, 10 laps had <20% wear.

No, tire wear is set to normal/realistic.

Zaskarspants
11-12-2017, 12:01
IIRC rate of tyre wear was increased for some formulas in the patch.

binarywarrior
11-12-2017, 13:29
Hey guys,

since Patch 3.0 my front tires in the Ferrari 488 GT3 overheat/ wear a lot.
Did a race in Algarve, track temp 48°C, after lap 1 the left front had over 125°C. That should be way to much? I also struggle on other tracks, and it always seems to be the left front and sometimes the left rear tire. They overheat, or even if they don't overheat they wear pretty fast. After about 5-6 laps on every track they are over 20% down.
It is better with the stable setup, than the loose setup. I changed nothing except tire pressures, so that I end up at about 1.85 bar after a couple of laps.

I already tried out some tips to avoid overheating but they don't really help.

I am quite new to simracing, so I don't know, if 20% tire loss after 6 laps is appropriate or not? If not, what am I doing wrong? I try to not kill the tire too much, brake early, get a nice apex and then get up to speed again, but it won't really help.

Help would be much appreciated.
Regards.

Might also try reducing engine breaking to the highest value or one below, I can't say whether is realistic or not as no one has let me drive their GT3 :p (probably is tho). Engine braking in PC2 is strong enough to drag the back wheels around the track, what also happens with it set to lowest value is you tend to drift and over compensate everything your doing during cornering. I think is likely this maybe the culprit for you.

I tend to run almost every car I drive with maximum value (which is lowest setting), it helps to be very smooth and also if you need to grab a gear mid corner for instance during an intense race the high setting will often catch you out.

binarywarrior
11-12-2017, 13:34
Right I have reinstalled my video editing software, hope I can remember how to use it :). This is quite some work to do frankly, will take me awhile. Also have to find a way to format it all so makes sense, rather than messy bunch of clips.

Small update on first vid, hard's in winter 14 degrees track temp... the time I set think I might struggle to beat on the soft's. Anyway hopefully get this lot uploaded in near future.

TrueValue
11-12-2017, 14:01
Ok guys, I am starting to go crazy.

Nürburgring Sprint Short is my next career race, 20°C track temp. Tried the soft tire, which is blown away in pieces after a couple of laps. So the hard one it is.

After 5 laps my front left tire is 10% down, front left has about 95 degrees (thats ok), all the other tires have only about 70°C. The left front tire is killing me.
I tried softening the front sway bar and reduced toe close to 0. Not only is the car undriveable now, but it also still looses a lot of tire, although the temperatures are normal or even below normal. This can't be right. Maybe it really is my driving style, but I doubt that it will have such an huge impact.

PS: The Soft Slick is super understeery, even after 1 lap, it is crazy.

binarywarrior
11-12-2017, 14:09
Yes as I am trying to capture now, hard is the option from 20 degrees track temp upwards, possibly below testing that as we speak. So hard with a little more down force added... dependent of track can be as little as 2 clicks on the rear only. Not only does the soft not have as much purchase as the hard out of the box (out lap aside). The hard wears much slower, therefore any small time that may or may not be lost in first laps will be made up after you enter 3rd lap onward.

The only downside to hard in cold is you need 3 laps to warm them, but in race they begin very warm so is a non issue there.

Edit:

Ran the winter test at Monza 15 degrees track temp, identical setup apart from tires. The Soft did a 1:48:302, the hard a 1:48:337.... now yes the soft did a faster time (just), but I am testing over 10 laps and there is no reason to use the soft in any dry condition sadly. Firstly to get a comparable time had to take huge risks with the under steer falling off the track several laps in a row, take super aggressive lines to compensate for under steer also killing the tires. Again the drive is also a chore and not something I enjoy, even if you hit your apex and go for throttle on exit you have to lift several times just to make a turn (even on a long turn when you have the right line and completely settled). Mid corner is just a complete gamble trying to attack the corner.

I felt more comfortable with the hards as the two options were compensate for under steer every corner or deal with tricky bit of over steer in one with the hards.

The setup used for hards had 3 clicks rear only, I thought I could beat the time by using a more normal approach with the softs and went to 1 click rear... after that I could not control the under steer.

Previous I said softs were fastest on out lap when cold... at 15 degrees this was not the case it was a similar experience to hards, they needed much warming up.

So just for those following wonder what to do in the below 20 degrees, take the hard.

binarywarrior
11-12-2017, 18:04
Well if the boot was on the other foot I can assure you I would have been man enough to say, I was wrong. I don't give advice unless I am sure of something or went away and tested what that person was saying. On the bright side I have a thick skin and it won't stop me posting in future... funny that the OP never posted again I wonder why? Most importantly off all we should get a two tyre option again, giving added tactics back to GT racing... great news!

gp2112
11-12-2017, 19:36
Also I am interested in a setup that makes the GTR usable on hards on twisty track without all four tires turning to mush. That does comparable lap times to the rest of the field. Anyone provide those two things, which seem unobtainable to me would be much appreciated.


thanks in advance.

EDIT:

In the mean time when I have some spare hours I will make the vid that shows the issue described exactly by the OP

There are a few things that I noticed are missing from your posts:

1. What is the set-up you are using? I.E. You gave us tire pressure but no mention of camber nor mention of toe values. If you are using extreme camber the insides of your tires will heat up very fast. If you use extreme toe (some cars require it) you will heat up your tires if the tire does not have the power to overcome the toe, then you will be scrubbing your tires 100% of the time. What are your damper settings? To hard and the tires will scrub every time you hit a corner as they will lose mechanical grip. You need the body to roll a bit and the chassis to be able to settle in, or out of a corner. The chassis also needs to settle midcorner and when shifting weight from front to back, side to side, or you will get tire scrub. Is your set-up so firm you are carrying one of the front wheels, thus putting more pressure on the other three?

2. What aero setting are you using? I realize that to go fast one thinks they need less aero but if you have it too low your car will slide from the moment you hit the track. Many do not realize that to save tires it is often better to sacrifice straight line speed for more aero. Doing this will actually allow you to corner faster, exit faster and lower times while saving tires. This is the strategy that most of the LMP-1H cars went to in recent years: Straight line speed was sacrificed for cornering speed, thus allowing the LMP-1H cars to turn record lap times.

3. I think you have mentioned it but I will say it again: The softs for GT3 cars and any of the newer models is only for colder weather. The hottest track temp you want to run softs is about 100-105 F. Any higher and you will bake the tires withing a lap or two unless you are in conservation mode. Go with hards, stay with them and you will passing all the drivers who give up control over the long run for one or two fast laps. I rarely run softs.

4. Are you warming your tires up on your out-lap? If not you are wasting time. You should go easy for the first 1/2-3/4 of your outlap and then put the hammer down the last two or three corners to get your entry and exit speed up. This will save the tires a bit more and, additionally , break them in properly.

There is not one car that I use that cannot be used, properly, if you set up the car correctly, use the proper tires and warm the tires properly.

binarywarrior
11-12-2017, 20:10
1. I was talking of extreme settings to cool the tires, from a more neutral setup I kept moving everything toward less aggressive so when I say extreme in this case I mean minimal toe, camber, maximum down force... opening brakes, softening suspension stuff etc... so going through everything up and down the scale. Pressure would be minimal as the heat will inflate the tyre (but yes i tried the opposite just because also).

2. Answered in 1 :)

3. Problem with cold tyre confirmed by Doug: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58703-Soft-tyre-after-patch

4. Well depends if they are overheating I try not to abuse them cold... in other instances yes.

I am talking about GTR on a warm summers day... happy to try your working setup, else will test this again last to triple check. As I said above I am already recording the soft tyre issues.

Also as I said above I will post vids here, all will become much clearer soon.

Thanks

gp2112
12-12-2017, 03:41
1. I was talking of extreme settings to cool the tires, from a more neutral setup I kept moving everything toward less aggressive so when I say extreme in this case I mean minimal toe, camber, maximum down force... opening brakes, softening suspension stuff etc... so going through everything up and down the scale. Pressure would be minimal as the heat will inflate the tyre (but yes i tried the opposite just because also).

2. Answered in 1 :)

3. Problem with cold tyre confirmed by Doug: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58703-Soft-tyre-after-patch

4. Well depends if they are overheating I try not to abuse them cold... in other instances yes.

I am talking about GTR on a warm summers day... happy to try your working setup, else will test this again last to triple check. As I said above I am already recording the soft tyre issues.

Also as I said above I will post vids here, all will become much clearer soon.

Thanks

The GTR will tend to be harder on front tires as it is AWD. AWD tends to heat the fronts up more than normal as they are constantly trying to get grip. As you turn this will heat up the tires considerably. Try modulating the accelerator as you are turning. Every time you lift the fronts stop driving and will steer better. This technique was used by Stuck, Haywood, et-al when they drove the Audi SCCA/IMSA car, which was AWD. They understood that the car lacked the turning ability if they drove it normally so they developed, with the help of Rhorhl, a few techniques to get the car to rotate and keep the turbo spooled (which you dont have to worry about).

Toe in that car is important. Usually with a RWD you will toe the front in and toe the rear out. This allows the fronts to "swing" back and the rears to "grab" forward toward neutral when at speed. Think of the tires as a pendulum that swings back, if not a drive wheel, and forward if it is a drive wheel. If you do not have the proper toe for the GTR the wheels will not be able to swing to neutral and will heat up because they are scrubbing 100% of the time. Depending upon the power distribution (60-40 to the rear?), you may want to try using +1 in the front and +2 - +4 in the rear. This should allow the tires to swing to neutral (toward the front of the car) at speed and stop so much scrubbing. Maybe go from there and go forward or back depending upon how the tires heat up.

Again: Add aero, especially at the Nordschleffe. While this track gives alot of opportunity for all-out speed, you need it for the turns. Try 1/6 or 7 and see how it works. 0/2 or 1/3 will give top end but not enough grip in the twisties.

I am aware that there are issues, I just had the problem in the BMW M1 (Gp. 4), but if you spend enough time you will be able to figure out a tune.

Hope I was able to give at least a modicum of help. Good luck.

hkraft300
12-12-2017, 04:20
GTR GT3 is RWD.

Keena
12-12-2017, 08:55
Just did ten laps of Algarve in GTR with hard tyres, track temp 40C. Assists Off.
Absolutely no probs keeping front tyres in operating window once camber adjusted. Its very easy to overdrive the tyre against throttle especially on the last turn, so taking that at about 5mph less than is actually possible. Lap times in region of 1.49.6.
Its my belief you're simply overdriving the car.

Soft tyre front left overheats as expected. It would with a track temp of 40C.

Edit- I then adjusted my brake pedal sensitivity in the main menu to 60, found I could brake better in this car and started averaging 1.48s, so even without adjusting power diff there's plenty to do to unlock performance in the car without ragging the tyres to bits. I find on hot tracks I'm generally more worried about engine temps than I am about tyre temps as I use power to balance the car a lot in my setups. Assists OFF or having the TC at about 80 will help balance the car- instead of driving through the front wheels the back will step out except for sustained high speed corners, and theres other setup ideas to help here.

binarywarrior
12-12-2017, 09:16
It was Hard on Nurburg GP, I didn't test as thoroughly as I did the soft's.. happened in a race, then I immediately tested again using free practise with varying setups. I will check again when I get back from dentist :(

Was for a friend new to game and racing .. loves GTR so I said I would do some setups.

Thanks anyway Keena

Keena
12-12-2017, 09:22
It was Hard on Nurburg GP, I didn't test as thoroughly as I did the soft's.. happened in a race, then I immediately tested again using free practise with varying setups. I will check again when I get back from dentist :(

Was for a friend new to game and racing .. loves GTR so I said I would do some setups.

Thanks anyway Keena

No worries my friend. We all want the same thing in the end :)

TrueValue
12-12-2017, 20:35
So, today I started another session, this time at the Nürburgring GP, 6 laps with the BMW M6 and after that another 6 laps with the Ferrari F488 GT3, both default loose setup except tire pressures. The tire wear and temperatures were ok, about 10% tire was gone after the six laps.
Afterwards I tried Algarve again with slightly cooler temperatures (32°C) than last time and I tried to attack the last two corners differently: worked! About 5-10% less tire wear than before.

So I thought maybe my issue was solved, but then I tried Spa. Wow.
41°C, did my outlap and 3 quite slow laps (2:25) and the front tires were gone about 20 - 25%. My third lap was over 2 seconds slower than the ones before. I wasn't even attacking the corners like a maniac, but still the tires were gone. Temperatures and pressure were ok, the whole time.

So, the game wants to tell me, that after about 7-8 laps in Spa my tire is more than 50% gone? Really? This is crazy man. None of the setup solutions really work

Herege
12-12-2017, 20:48
The soft tires with the new patch are now butter melting.

binarywarrior
13-12-2017, 01:03
I have all the facts, I know whats going on but am busy with the vid and GTA V heist. I try update the thread soon with what I know. Certainly very interesting.

Just ignore the softs currently, all I can say for now without typing an essay :)

Truevalue you shouldn't even be trying softs above the mid 20 degrees track temp anyway, I gather that what your using as hards so not wear that fast.

Bl4ckBoyZ
13-12-2017, 10:16
Hi guys, I add myself to the discussion for clarification. I state that in qualifying in monza I'm fine, so much so that I often get the pole. Different speech instead for the race where after 3/4 laps the tires collapse so much to make me recover a lot of those behind me, and sometimes I struggle to keep the car cornering at 7/8 lap without turning. Advice on what can I change for my race setup? convergence, tampons, camber ... etc. thank you

hkraft300
13-12-2017, 10:24
Try a hard compound.

Also, if you're fast enough in qualifying that you're often on pole, means you're pushing the tires a lot because you are very fast.

Manage your pace and tires during the race. Example: you start on pole and instead of driving at 100% the full race, build a gap to P2 in the first few laps then drive slower to maintain the gap. Manage your pace and tires.

Tire management is now critical since patch 3.

Rx4speed
13-12-2017, 11:05
No, sorry. I have a closed mind set.

I've read this entire thread and I do NOT see you helping this guy. What I see is your being snarky, list each post he's made just to make fun of him. I see this alot on this forum. I've been sim racing since dial-up in 1997, and I've never seen guys asking for help being berated like they do on this forum. It's ridiculous. This Sim is AWESOME; however, most of the time when someone posts an issue, they have to endure a barrage of "your a horrible driver, etc", or better yet picking on their people skills before some finally says "let me try to replicate that and get back to you".

This is the first negative post I've made, but I could not stand by and watch this bullying. That's what it is. You should be ashamed of yourself,

TrueValue
13-12-2017, 11:11
I have all the facts, I know whats going on but am busy with the vid and GTA V heist. I try update the thread soon with what I know. Certainly very interesting.

Just ignore the softs currently, all I can say for now without typing an essay :)

Truevalue you shouldn't even be trying softs above the mid 20 degrees track temp anyway, I gather that what your using as hards so not wear that fast.

Sadly, I did use the hard tires.

hkraft300
13-12-2017, 12:02
I've read this entire thread and I do NOT see you helping this guy. What I see is your being snarky, list each post he's made just to make fun of him. I see this alot on this forum. I've been sim racing since dial-up in 1997, and I've never seen guys asking for help being berated like they do on this forum. It's ridiculous. This Sim is AWESOME; however, most of the time when someone posts an issue, they have to endure a barrage of "your a horrible driver, etc", or better yet picking on their people skills before some finally says "let me try to replicate that and get back to you".

This is the first negative post I've made, but I could not stand by and watch this bullying. That's what it is. You should be ashamed of yourself,

That's your conclusion after reading this entire thread? :glee:
What a fair and accurate assessment of this forum and my bullying... :applause:

binarywarrior
13-12-2017, 12:11
Sadly, I did use the hard tires.

Well Spa is my most played track after Monza (yea I'm one those guys). I have no issue like you have on the hard tyre with the M6 I can't speak for the Ferrari, I hate it, never drive it because reasons. Also I am on PC not PS4, maybe better to ask people online you see doing well to share setups. I wouldn't use setups taken from ghosts in TT for varying reasons, mainly though from what I seen the fastest way to 1 lap in Pcars 2 is a kind of drifting and this certainly doesn't translate well to racing or tyre wear.

There is plenty of good advice in this thread on how to make less aggressive setup if you tried all these things, and are sure that your using hards and ABS, like I say better to seek a setup from a fellow online ps4 player.


Actually my last advice would be lower brake pressure and raise abs, try on the M6 89% for both.. gives maximum ABS without unsettling the car (tend to use this in most of the GT3).

Zaskarspants
13-12-2017, 12:13
I've read this entire thread and I do NOT see you helping this guy. What I see is your being snarky, list each post he's made just to make fun of him. I see this alot on this forum. I've been sim racing since dial-up in 1997, and I've never seen guys asking for help being berated like they do on this forum. It's ridiculous. This Sim is AWESOME; however, most of the time when someone posts an issue, they have to endure a barrage of "your a horrible driver, etc", or better yet picking on their people skills before some finally says "let me try to replicate that and get back to you".

This is the first negative post I've made, but I could not stand by and watch this bullying. That's what it is. You should be ashamed of yourself,

Bullying? That is just ridiculous.

pferreirag60
13-12-2017, 12:19
Like Rx4speed said... You haven´t helped him a bit! just snarky comments.... Really this type of attitude in this forums have always been the same, even some moderators( not all them) suffer from the same attitude. It really is a shame as PCARS2, in my opinion is the best of them all, by miles!!!
But closed minded individuals exist every where, and with that kind of "help comments", many people prefer not to post here.

gp2112
13-12-2017, 12:25
I've read this entire thread and I do NOT see you helping this guy. What I see is your being snarky, list each post he's made just to make fun of him. I see this alot on this forum. I've been sim racing since dial-up in 1997, and I've never seen guys asking for help being berated like they do on this forum. It's ridiculous. This Sim is AWESOME; however, most of the time when someone posts an issue, they have to endure a barrage of "your a horrible driver, etc", or better yet picking on their people skills before some finally says "let me try to replicate that and get back to you".

This is the first negative post I've made, but I could not stand by and watch this bullying. That's what it is. You should be ashamed of yourself,


Did you really read the whole thread? Yes, there were a number of posts in here that were not helpful but there were also a number of posts that were trying to be helpful. Or are you looking for support in every word, nuance, punctuation mark? As for "replicating" what he was doing: How does that happen if he does not give all the info needed? He did not. He tried passing the info along but there are a lot of gaps in his info too.

Are you sure you are not just looking for a "victim" and seeing what you want to see in order to strengthen your point?

I think you should work on your reading comprehension skills along with your mind set when reading other persons posts. Then, once you do that you should comment.

There is no problem when calling out people for being turds but don't paint with a broad brush when you try to mete out social justice. It just makes you look like you are a hysterical hand-wringer.

You should be ashamed of yourself for performing your own brand of bullying.

Sankyo
13-12-2017, 12:26
OK cool down guys. If you have a personal issue, take it to PM. If you think a reply isn't helpful, you can state that without resorting to personal attacks, as that will not improve things.

gp2112
13-12-2017, 12:27
Like Rx4speed said... You haven´t helped him a bit! just snarky comments.... Really this type of attitude in this forums have always been the same, even some moderators( not all them) suffer from the same attitude. It really is a shame as PCARS2, in my opinion is the best of them all, by miles!!!
But closed minded individuals exist every where, and with that kind of "help comments", many people prefer not to post here.

I will just re-post for you my reply to your fellow social justice bully:

Did you really read the whole thread? Yes, there were a number of posts in here that were not helpful but there were also a number of posts that were trying to be helpful. Or are you looking for support in every word, nuance, punctuation mark? As for "replicating" what he was doing: How does that happen if he does not give all the info needed? He did not. He tried passing the info along but there are a lot of gaps in his info too.

Are you sure you are not just looking for a "victim" and seeing what you want to see in order to strengthen your point?

I think you should work on your reading comprehension skills along with your mind set when reading other persons posts. Then, once you do that you should comment.

There is no problem when calling out people for being turds but don't paint with a broad brush when you try to mete out social justice. It just makes you look like you are a hysterical hand-wringer.

You should be ashamed of yourself for performing your own brand of bullying.

Zaskarspants
13-12-2017, 12:28
Like Rx4speed said... You haven´t helped him a bit! just snarky comments.... Really this type of attitude in this forums have always been the same, even some moderators( not all them) suffer from the same attitude. It really is a shame as PCARS2, in my opinion is the best of them all, by miles!!!
But closed minded individuals exist every where, and with that kind of "help comments", many people prefer not to post here.

Well, I have been posting here for three months or so, and I do not recognize your rant. Myself and many others enjoy posting to help others. For you to elide that the whole forum is anathema to some imagined others because you have taken exception to something in one thread is just scurrilous.

Keena
13-12-2017, 12:29
I assume in this case the criticism applies to me also. So having spent a couple of hours replicating the described circumstances then working on a setup and adjustments to try and rectify the issue, I should concentrate instead on being a bit more touchy feely for the delicate racers out there? Hmm yes on a forum where we have no idea of the age, mental state, vulnerabilities etc of the person to which we are addressing our remarks we should indeed bear such considerations in mind. At the end of the day though we are only human, and if something irritates us it is a function of our primordial brain that we do not always allow our cerebral cortex the space to formulate a reasoned response. So the caveat to the point I make about being sensitive to the situation of others needs to be tempered by an awareness that cultural miss-understandings, tiredness, personality etc can result in an unfavourable response or bias, to which you who call out "bully" are no less susceptible. But we try, and continue to try to be better people. I shall continue to try and help people enjoy this game, because its too good for people to miss out because of something that may not be a real problem. Sometimes I'll give out a snarky comment, but most of the time that will be because Ive just been up for well on 24 hours working or suffering massive jet lag, or I'm just having a weak moment. A bit less of the broad brush judgement calls from Mount Moral would be nice :)

Edit- Regarding my own sometimes foul behaviour, just someone pointing out that a remark wasn't very kind or a highly specific question targeted at bringing the issue back on target works for me when I am behaving like a bit of a tool. When I'm being a jerk, the last thing that's going to stop me being a jerk is being told that I'm being a jerk. Anything that gets me thinking about something specific is normally good to refocus the mind EG what tyres/temps/pressures would you recommend? Is there anything obvious that I'm missing? ;)

Zaskarspants
13-12-2017, 12:31
OK cool down guys. If you have a personal issue, take it to PM. If you think a reply isn't helpful, you can state that without resorting to personal attacks, as that will not improve things.

Yes, I will say no more.

TrueValue
13-12-2017, 12:33
Well Spa is my most played track after Monza (yea I'm one those guys). I have no issue like you have on the hard tyre with the M6 I can't speak for the Ferrari, I hate it, never drive it because reasons. Also I am on PC not PS4, maybe better to ask people online you see doing well to share setups. I wouldn't use setups taken from ghosts in TT for varying reasons, mainly though from what I seen the fastest way to 1 lap in Pcars 2 is a kind of drifting and this certainly doesn't translate well to racing or tyre wear.

There is plenty of good advice in this thread on how to make less aggressive setup if you tried all these things, and are sure that your using hards and ABS, like I say better to seek a setup from a fellow online ps4 player.


Actually my last advice would be lower brake pressure and raise abs, try on the M6 89% for both.. gives maximum ABS without unsettling the car (tend to use this in most of the GT3).

I tried the M6 now and it is much better at Spa! Had 20% tire wear after about 9 laps, at 41°C track, I think that is ok.

Keena
13-12-2017, 12:34
I tried the M6 now and it is much better at Spa! Had 20% tire wear after about 9 laps, at 41°C track, I think that is ok.

That's pretty impressive. I think I might be coming to you for setups :fox:

binarywarrior
13-12-2017, 12:53
OK I will post my findings so far and get this back on topic, hopefully can get some actual tyre discussion going on. I appreciate the comments regarding myself... but would prefer this thread stay completely on topic as the topic is something really want discussed as the tyres are really important to my enjoyment of the game. Also maybe someone can fill in the gaps regarding the real life soft tyre, because I am struggling to find lap time info's which include it.

Lastly I need to do 1 more test at late 20 degrees temps so that I have covered all the bases.

I thought was bad idea to post here before vid, but more I think on it probably someone will post something useful to add to it. I have done some Pcars mod physics several times before but tires were never my thing so.

TrueValue
13-12-2017, 13:20
That's pretty impressive. I think I might be coming to you for setups :fox:

Got the setup from YouTube, just search BMW M6 GT3 Setup there is one guy showing his on Nürburgring GP, I use it for every track now.

binarywarrior
13-12-2017, 14:46
For reference here is the Pirelli chart for GT3 tires:

247348

Firstly I am not here to berate the tires, they are probably the thing that impresses me most about the game, they are an amazing piece of kit and as such is probably why it is hard to get them so right. Might I point out again everything I state here is with video to back it up (it will just take sometime to get the clips edited and uploaded).


The problems I originally reported were with the softs, I and many others just found them lacking in all areas. They are according to the chart supposed to be the tyre to use between 10 - mid to late 20 degrees track temps. Most races (with day night transition) you will come across include a track condition in the low to mid 20's. Trying to use said tyre in changing time of day conditions caused me me to lose many races and even just give up in instances, hence my frustration and much testing. The thing is whilst trying to race or drive on the limit it is quite hard to actually tell what the issues are and for those that disagree with my findings, I cannot recommend highly enough to record and have a look yourself.

The testing was done at Monza, with identical setups bar the tires over 10 laps.


The soft:

It is actually hard to remember what they were like in patch 2.0, I do remember reporting even then they had the most amount of grip when leaving the pit. I never thought them fantastic then either. What I find now is they are just worse at everything bar that same out lap, so believe the only thing changed in the softs is the wear rate. This wear rate in turn "I think" just amplifies the problems that were already there, the problems are two fold. Now I cannot confirm or deny these problems exists in the real soft tyre... although I find it hard to believe they are to such an extent. In my findings which we will get to real soon, I found the hard tyre was a big part of the cause also (more on that later). What I am sure of is that whilst the hard tyre is a big part of the problem here, it's times represented in its track temp window e.g. 30- 40 degrees are pretty much bang on the money compared to real life times (bravo SMS).

I'll begin with the out lap as this was first thing many people notice, you do a fantastic out lap then is going down hill from there. After watching those clips of my laps which, were done very thoroughly might I add. The soft tyre is indeed working as expected in that lap it is slightly slippery and whilst not fantastic (there is still a lack of overall grip) it is getting better over that lap ever so slightly whilst warming. What do I mean by a lack of overall grip? Well the rears seem fine an work well, the problem is even at optimal temps the tyre has a tendency to under steer and refuses any stress you apply to them mid corner or on corner exit, with the throttle. After some practise with softs you begin to anticipate this and drive very aggressive lines which why killing the tyre does not actually produce a decent lap time regardless.

Even at a track temperature of 15 degrees the soft is unable to find any solid grip whilst the tires are running within optimal temp, with minimal wear. At a track temp of 21 degrees we have the same results in all instances until approx two and a half laps in, now the problems are amplified as the front tires are up to to temperature and begin overheating every time you enter a corner of any note. They do not cool sufficiently most of the time and the continual scrubbing and rise in temps brings about a situation where you need to lift several times even in a fast wide corner to make the exit. The problem is not only the temperature though as in some instances I found that the tires were in a good temperature but would allow no throttle at all and still manage to under steer like mad. So again it is two problems causing the issue and again I have no data regarding soft tire lap times to draw a complete conclusion.

I have yet to record clips in the late 20's track temp but would imagine this is when they are at their worst, I just cant give temps to back up my findings. At 21 degrees the tire would enter a corner at around 80-85 degrees and jump up to 95 - 100 degrees. Now you can jump on me and say I am over driving the tyre but given the soft time was 1:48:302, the hard a 1:48:337 and the wear rate of the softs and issues with keeping car on the track... to beat the the hards in the soft track temp of 15 degrees you have no choice but to overdrive the car with no real gains whatsoever.


Now according to the chart the crossover of these two tires is 35 degrees track temp e.g. according to that chart (I have no rel life experience of these tires), this is when it would be warm enough (and possibly slight cooler) to run hards in their optimal pressures/temps.


The Hards:

Now in patch 2.0 I hated the Hards on my M6, I could never really get the needed heat in them for braking where I was wanting to brake... basically under heavy braking I was sliding around. If honest I just used the Soft in just about all instances. In patch 3.0 I love the hard it does exactly what I want it to do with a very nice wear rate, it is certainly currently my favourite tyre of any sim ever. The problem I had was with changing time of day conditions, after a bit of testing I found the hard was better than the soft on a cold night. I would pop on the hard add few clicks of down force and destroy the rest of the field... no fun and I am all about the realism. Now during my testing thankfully I was comparing the soft versus the hard and found more issue with the hard than the soft.

Now again I don't know how to approach this because it is a complicated thing to get right imo, the hard is doing the correct times compared to real life in it's operating window (and I would also like the hard to keep it's handling characteristics in said window). The problem is it compounds the soft issue because the hard is actually just as fast as the soft right down to the 10 degrees track temp (remembering the hards cutoff is around 30 degrees lets say, according to the chart).

The handling of the hard right down to 10 degrees track temp is superior to the softs (once warmed), if you get your line right the hard will hold it amazingly well at all track temps unless over heated. If you try using the same throttle inputs with the softs they don't have any of that bite and (no exaggeration) will literally drive straight off the track. Now one approach would obviously be remove a lot heat from the hards (I think this maybe what changed in patch 3.0), but as I said in their actual window their perfect and I would not want to go back to how they were patch 2.0.

On the other hand there is currently no reason to take the softs, your doing the same lap times, taking more risks (as the hard rarely causes you to fall off the track and has a nice over steer element in the cold, compared to only under steer in the softs) and on top of that the soft will become useless after very few laps.



Now I'll be honest if was down to me to fix the hard I would be scratching my head.. thankfully SMS has far more knowledge and data than I ever will :p and I trust they will get this right soon.


As for the softs I would really like to see some lap time info to back up my gut feelings... but I just feel they need a slightly more abrasive surface and probably to come down around 5 degrees in temp. I certainly still want tyre management to be a big part of the game and for tires to overheat when over driven.

You may I ask why I care so much? Well we have all these great tools in weather and time of day etc and a huge part of racing for me is tactics. Certainly in the current situation in a long race there are no decisions to make other than pitting for fuel in dry conditions.

So to end I apologise for the length, can anyone get hold of lap time data for softs? Any thought on how to fix such an issue are welcomed... like I said the video will take awhile because is not just the softs that I am covering since issues with the hards were found also.

I hope now there is something to discuss.

fostrike
13-12-2017, 14:51
ops, sorry,wrong tread :D

Bl4ckBoyZ
14-12-2017, 06:17
in monza with the porsche how much are you with the tire pressure?

Keena
14-12-2017, 14:23
TBH a table of pressures and temps would be good. I know it depends on setup to a certain extent but something ballpark as a benchmark would sure make setup development easier..

Bl4ckBoyZ
14-12-2017, 14:34
Try a hard compound.

Also, if you're fast enough in qualifying that you're often on pole, means you're pushing the tires a lot because you are very fast.

Manage your pace and tires during the race. Example: you start on pole and instead of driving at 100% the full race, build a gap to P2 in the first few laps then drive slower to maintain the gap. Manage your pace and tires.

Tire management is now critical since patch 3.

Thanks, in the setup what helps the tires? give more pressure than qualifications, raise the pads, decrease the anti-roll bar, or what? thank you

Keena
14-12-2017, 14:51
Keep an eye on the temp spread across the face of the tyre. If the inside temp gets to high reduce camber. If the middle temp is too high/low reduce/increase pressure. That's the obvious stuff. Less obvious is soft bump under braking but that's an essay in itself.

hkraft300
14-12-2017, 21:27
Thanks, in the setup what helps the tires?

Everything, but most importantly: your driving.

Spring rates, arb, brake pressure/ bias/ ducts, aerodynamic, everything.

You want target hot pressure ~1.85 bar for monza, qualifying and race.

Toe = 0. Adjust camber as needed.

Be smooth.

Bl4ckBoyZ
14-12-2017, 21:35
Everything, but most importantly: your driving.

Spring rates, arb, brake pressure/ bias/ ducts, aerodynamic, everything.

You want target hot pressure ~1.85 bar for monza, qualifying and race.

Toe = 0. Adjust camber as needed.

Be smooth.

thanks, as I'm going to 1.38 in front and 1.35 behind, 1.85 is not too much? as camber I have -0.1 in front and 0.3 behind .. conducted at 20/30%.

hkraft300
14-12-2017, 21:41
SMS recommendation 1.8 bar for GT and LMP tires.

Bl4ckBoyZ
15-12-2017, 05:57
SMS recommendation 1.8 bar for GT and LMP tires.

I mean in the setup settings

Zenzic
15-12-2017, 06:01
1.80/1.85 bar are the hot pressures. The tire pressures in your setup are cold pressures and will therefore be lower.

hkraft300
15-12-2017, 06:57
I mean in the setup settings

Adjust pressure and brake ducts til you reach ~1.8 bar hot.
Usually I'm in the 1.45-1.5 bar mark depending on track temp for hard tires. Rear about 0.05 bar less, again depending on diff setup and balance.

Bl4ckBoyZ
15-12-2017, 12:21
1.80/1.85 bar are the hot pressures. The tire pressures in your setup are cold pressures and will therefore be lower.


Adjust pressure and brake ducts til you reach ~1.8 bar hot.
Usually I'm in the 1.45-1.5 bar mark depending on track temp for hard tires. Rear about 0.05 bar less, again depending on diff setup and balance.

Thanks I will try to do so and raise them.