PDA

View Full Version : Sitting on A by ages, seems impossible to reach S



tipostrano
17-12-2017, 19:27
I've been sitting in A for a long time, at least 100 races.
I have more or less an average of wins of 1 in 2 races. Same story for qualifications.
1 pole on 2. From the patch, I can see the progression and are at 60%, and each race at most rises by 1 point. Unfortunately, close-knit duels are not something for every day, often being in front.
I drive super clean. Sometimes unfortunately someone happens on turn 1 from behind ( well, you know ), and here I lose 2/5 points of progression. In this situation, S license seems like a mirage.
What should I do? slow down and stay in the middle of more cars possible? It would seem stupid, as well as risky for the rating

beatrunner
17-12-2017, 20:03
i can assure you: it took me exactly 165 races (91 since patch 1.3) to change from A to S.
and of course i wasn't entitled an S driver because i drove back with the pack or something.
maybe it's a possible way. my way of driving in PC2 (with the goal to become one of the highest ranked drivers in public lobbies :-) ) was quite simple (especially since patch 1.3):

my Recipe to become S1777

- qualifing first (or as fast as possible)
- end first (or as best as i could without beeing "unclean / unfair")
- only have valid laps - never leave track / never spin off
- never ever get any time-penalites
- allways slow down asap if you get a prompt (even if that means loosing position)
- be patient with back markers / you can overtake them easily or they spin off anyway quite soon with bit of pressure from behind
- same goes for everbody in front of me in racing (when i can see on my app that im faster anyway)
- overtake everybody clean without any contact(warning) (that's quite easy as most people prefer understeery "loose" setup)
- stay away from toxic U-lobbies with more players then you can "monitor at once" during a race (for me 10)
- stay especially away from monza: that place seems to be the only track noobs "are able to drive" on - it's pest over there
- it's the track that will destroy your license for sure with random newbie u-drivers. just: FOR SURE
- stay away from tracks (when in noob lobbies) that have any sharp T1 you can't go thru faster for sure then the average driver

maybe (or for sure?) you can gain safety rating faster when starting in the back. but then the recipe above will be much harder to follow when you're not really that much faster then the "pack"...otherwise you will just have greater opportunitie/risk to be rammed and abused as a brake by the drivers who don't know (yet) how to drive...




that's (or was for me) the only way to get into promies land (S Rank). :_)

Markus Ott
17-12-2017, 20:40
That's just how the slipstream rating works.
If you are fast and you are safe, you don't get much.
If you are slow, a wrecker, and drive behind someone with your wrecked car 30 seconds off pace you get rewarded for that. That's also why you see so many high safety rating, low skill rating drivers out there. Crashers who come in last most probably have more luck gaining safety rating than actual safe drivers.

If you want to climb fast you have to drive closely behind someone. If you take pole and go on to win the race without a fault you will get 1%, or at best 2% for a longer race (if you are A).
pCARS made me realize how much smarter the simpler iRacing safety rating is. It depends on how safe you are, and only that. safety rating > slipstream rating

tipostrano
17-12-2017, 20:47
Yeah beatrunner, your way is similar to mine. ( I'm 1740 ) and is soo slow. I think before 1.3 patch it could have been much easier

bmanic
17-12-2017, 21:24
'S' is supposed to be difficult to achieve. Otherwise there would be no point with it. Seen plenty of 'S' rated players so it's definitely not at all impossible to get.. nor even all that difficult it seems.

ironik
17-12-2017, 22:28
That's just how the slipstream rating works.
If you are fast and you are safe, you don't get much.
If you are slow, a wrecker, and drive behind someone with your wrecked car 30 seconds off pace you get rewarded for that. That's also why you see so many high safety rating, low skill rating drivers out there. Crashers who come in last most probably have more luck gaining safety rating than actual safe drivers.

If you want to climb fast you have to drive closely behind someone. If you take pole and go on to win the race without a fault you will get 1%, or at best 2% for a longer race (if you are A).
pCARS made me realize how much smarter the simpler iRacing safety rating is. It depends on how safe you are, and only that. safety rating > slipstream rating

Sorry, but this is non sense. How a wrecker could improve his safety rating?
This is not possible.
So what you're complaining about is some slow drivers that are very safe to drive around...
Or maybe average drivers that are very cautious.
I myself tend to be on the too cautious side by the way.

So, in short, pCARS 2 safety rating is rewarding people that are safe to drive around.
Yeah slipstream rating you said... :rolleyes:

tipostrano
17-12-2017, 22:58
I made a stupid test.
Raced a race, got the pole. Slow down to be in the pack... and drove in the pack till the end ( finished 6, lost 5 points ahah )
Tried to stay as much as close to other cars. 2/3 little race contacts... but, anyway, i've got 3% of progression vs 0/1 of when i start first and finish first.
Even with 2/3 collision, i gained a lot. in that scenario, one can go from A to S in 30/40 races.

MaximusN
17-12-2017, 23:03
I made a stupid test.
Raced a race, got the pole. Slow down to be in the pack... and drove in the pack till the end ( finished 6, lost 5 points ahah )
Tried to stay as much as close to other cars. 2/3 little race contacts... but, anyway, i've got 3% of progression vs 0/1 of when i start first and finish first.
Even with 2/3 collision, i gained a lot. in that scenario, one can go from A to S in 30/40 races.
It was the general consensus that it worked that way.

I'm okay with it, but it's also a bit sad. Becasue if you are safe by avoiding other cars(be it from starting pole and running away or keeping your distance in the pack), you don't earn safety points.

Your insurance would applaud you for avoiding danger, this system makes you face danger to earn 'insurance discount'. :) And having no car contact in multiple laps or even races should count for something.

Markus Ott
18-12-2017, 00:06
Sorry, but this is non sense. How a wrecker could improve his safety rating?
This is not possible.
So what you're complaining about is some slow drivers that are very safe to drive around...
Or maybe average drivers that are very cautious.
I myself tend to be on the too cautious side by the way.

So, in short, pCARS 2 safety rating is rewarding people that are safe to drive around.
Yeah slipstream rating you said... :rolleyes:


I made a stupid test.
Raced a race, got the pole. Slow down to be in the pack... and drove in the pack till the end ( finished 6, lost 5 points ahah )
Tried to stay as much as close to other cars. 2/3 little race contacts... but, anyway, i've got 3% of progression vs 0/1 of when i start first and finish first.
Even with 2/3 collision, i gained a lot. in that scenario, one can go from A to S in 30/40 races.

Yeah. Anything left to say, ironik?
More funny jokes about the slipstream rating?

On a side note it also works that way in qualifying. It should be the exact other way round. If someone starts racing you in qual, instead of leaving space for fast laps, he hasn't understood the meaning of qualifying. That should give negative slipstream rating.

cpcdem
18-12-2017, 03:14
Problem is that lately there are too many A/S drivers that have absolutely no problem dive bombing, ramming and blocking others, you can trust nobody anymore for racing cleanly, unless you've raced together with them before. So I am afraid that the problem is that it's actually too easy to keep high ranking. I think it needs some re-balancing, I guess the target ranking distribution should be something like most people at F,E,D, much less in C,B, a few in A and very few in S, but doesn't look like it's anything like that. I am speaking also about myself, I've been at S since too long now, even though I have several incidents lately (not discussing if they are my fault or not). I think it should be a lot easier to drop...

MaximusN
18-12-2017, 08:50
Problem is that lately there are too many A/S drivers that have absolutely no problem dive bombing, ramming and blocking others, you can trust nobody anymore for racing cleanly, unless you've raced together with them before. So I am afraid that the problem is that it's actually too easy to keep high ranking. I think it needs some re-balancing, I guess the target ranking distribution should be something like most people at F,E,D, much less in C,B, a few in A and very few in S, but doesn't look like it's anything like that. I am speaking also about myself, I've been at S since too long now, even though I have several incidents lately (not discussing if they are my fault or not). I think it should be a lot easier to drop...

I think it's connected to the my post about having to put your car in danger to even earn safety points.

I said this before. Having an equal blame system actually helps a bully earn safety rating(and the guy that bends too I admit). It's actually quite similar to the equal blame system. When 2 crash two get punishment, when 2 are in a overtaker and overtakee situation(and don't crash), both earn safety rating. Being safe by staying out of every bodies way doesn't help you one bit.

I will tell you a dive bomber will have a hard time hitting me, but an easy time overtaking me.

Sankyo
18-12-2017, 09:06
It was the general consensus that it worked that way.

I'm okay with it, but it's also a bit sad. Becasue if you are safe by avoiding other cars(be it from starting pole and running away or keeping your distance in the pack), you don't earn safety points.

But you cannot decide whether someone really is a safe driver if he starts at pole a wins the race with a track length distance, can you? He just stays far in front from other people, but that's not the same as being a safe driver. Safety can be attributed to taking care of your own safety (not spinning/crashing) and taking care of the safety of other drivers (not ramming, avoiding contact). Apparently iRacing doesn't distinguish between the two, but pC2 weighs the latter heavier than the former. I don't see how that is bad.

ironik
18-12-2017, 09:30
Yeah. Anything left to say, ironik?
More funny jokes about the slipstream rating?

On a side note it also works that way in qualifying. It should be the exact other way round. If someone starts racing you in qual, instead of leaving space for last laps, he hasn't understood the meaning of qualifying. That should give negative slipstream rating.

I have some more for you mate but I feel you're getting a bit touchy. :D

I can understand your point of view (and MaximusN's one).
You're upset because you're both fast drivers and you feel that you're getting punished for being fast.
Point is that the you don't race against drivers that have the same level as you.
That's why one can create a lobby with a minimum rank. That way you would be racing against fair drivers with a similar level and you won't be pulling away that easily.

I'm still D. I was something like D (14%) and did three races. I made pole and finished first in the three races. I'm now D (46%).
So, when you have a quite low SR, running by yourself makes you earn quite a lot of points.
I guess that when you're in high SR, you have to prove you know how to race against others. Makes sense to me.


Problem is that lately there are too many A/S drivers that have absolutely no problem dive bombing, ramming and blocking others, you can trust nobody anymore for racing cleanly, unless you've raced together with them before. So I am afraid that the problem is that it's actually too easy to keep high ranking. I think it needs some re-balancing, I guess the target ranking distribution should be something like most people at F,E,D, much less in C,B, a few in A and very few in S, but doesn't look like it's anything like that. I am speaking also about myself, I've been at S since too long now, even though I have several incidents lately (not discussing if they are my fault or not). I think it should be a lot easier to drop...

Wow, be ready for the raise of pitchforks and torches. :cool:
I don't have a high SR so I can't judge but I tend to agree with you.


I think it's connected to the my post about having to put your car in danger to even earn safety points.

I said this before. Having an equal blame system actually helps a bully earn safety rating(and the guy that bends too I admit). It's actually quite similar to the equal blame system. When 2 crash two get punishment, when 2 are in a overtaker and overtakee situation(and don't crash), both earn safety rating. Being safe by staying out of every bodies way doesn't help you one bit.

I will tell you a dive bomber will have a hard time hitting me, but an easy time overtaking me.

How having an equal punishment is helping bullies? I genuinely don't get it.
A bully will have a lot of incident whereas a safe driver will have one incident caused by the bully and that's it. So the bully will lose more SR than the safe driver.

Regarding dive bombers, yeah, that's true. Dive bombers will often overtake cautious drivers but they'll fail at it soon or later and they'll lose SR.
That is, of course, if hitting a car is making you lose enough points.


But you cannot decide whether someone really is a safe driver if he starts at pole a wins the race with a track length distance, can you? He just stays far in front from other people, but that's not the same as being a safe driver. Safety can be attributed to taking care of your own safety (not spinning/crashing) and taking care of the safety of other drivers (not ramming, avoiding contact). Apparently iRacing doesn't distinguish between the two, but pC2 weighs the latter heavier than the former. I don't see how that is bad.

Totally agree with you.
IMHO, the problem here is that people are grinding for it. They want to be S.
Why don't you guys just play and enjoy yourself racing ?
Your SR will climb by itself without even thinking about it. (If you're safe off course).

Shepard2603
18-12-2017, 09:37
IMHO, the problem here is that people are grinding for it. They want to be S.
Why don't you guys just play and enjoy yourself racing ?
You're SR will climb by itself without even thinking about it. (If you're safe off course).
Pure elitism, I think...and it's nonsense.

ironik
18-12-2017, 09:40
Pure elitism, I think...and it's nonsense.

EDIT : Nevermind, I thought you were talking about me :D

Sankyo
18-12-2017, 09:42
Care to explain ? I don't see how it's elitism ?
This is a safety rating. It's here to judge how safe you are. Why grind for it ?
I'm D and happy with that, how is it "elite" ?
I guess he means wanting to achieve S rating is elitism. I don't agree, and we don't need these polarizing statements in this discussion anyway.

ironik
18-12-2017, 09:46
I guess he means wanting to achieve S rating is elitism. I don't agree, and we don't need these polarizing statements in this discussion anyway.

Yeah, maybe "elitism" is a bit strong and maybe a bit judgmental too but this grinding mentality is by-passing the goal of the SR.
That's why SMS didn't want to share the formula: to avoid grinding.
Fact is that everyone now know how to grind for it and like cpcdem said, you can't really trust the SR now, because of that.

Mbondracing
18-12-2017, 09:55
I’m not a slow driver but I usually find myself back in the pack a bit not being as fast as the aliens out front. I’ll never race in any lobby less than D safety rating and preferably minimum 1000skill rating too. Doing this the other drivers are mostly clean I find and I’m able to progress quickly with my safety rating. I hit A yesterday and I don’t race online that much just don’t have the time! When I do I keep it clean and now post patch 3 it seems much easier to gain back my skill rating which I lost early on after launch.

Sankyo
18-12-2017, 09:58
Yeah, maybe "elitism" is a bit strong and maybe a bit judgmental too but this grinding mentality is by-passing the goal of the SR.
That's why SMS didn't want to share the formula: to avoid grinding.
Fact is that everyone now know how to grind for it and like cpcdem said, you can't really trust the SR now, because of that.
Sorry, you lost me at the last statement. Why can't it be trusted? Knowing how to obtain it still requires you to drive safely. Knowing that you can abuse the system and be an arse online after obtaining the S ranking doesn't mean anything, any system can be abused but that doesn't make the system bad. If you're intent to abuse the system, you can, because in the end it's based on the assumption that people race online to enjoy racing, and not to be a twat.

ironik
18-12-2017, 10:13
Sorry, you lost me at the last statement. Why can't it be trusted? Knowing how to obtain it still requires you to drive safely. Knowing that you can abuse the system and be an arse online after obtaining the S ranking doesn't mean anything, any system can be abused but that doesn't make the system bad. If you're intent to abuse the system, you can, because in the end it's based on the assumption that people race online to enjoy racing, and not to be a twat.

I'm not clear enough I guess. :)
For example, I drive in leagues and I like to think that I'm a safe driver.
I'm used to race in pack, with three wides, with early braking from the guy in front, I know how to give enough room etc...
Still, I'm D.
Now, you take an average player who gamed the game. He stays behind a slower driver just to gain SR. he'll get S very quickly.
Is he a safer driver than me ? Actually, we can't know as he never really raced. He just grinded.
Off course we know that he's not a wrecker and that he should know how to drive properly around others. What we don't know for sure, is that he knows how to drive "fast", overtake and defend in pack.

Furthermore, if the grinding outweight the contacts during a race, he could still be gaining SR while making some contacts. (I have no clue about that, I'm just quoting cpcdem here).

Anyway, like you said, any system can be abused. I prefer pCARS 2 system rather than iRacing one. Driving by your own is not making you a safe driver by any means.

MaximusN
18-12-2017, 11:11
How having an equal punishment is helping bullies? I genuinely don't get it.
A bully will have a lot of incident whereas a safe driver will have one incident caused by the bully and that's it. So the bully will lose more SR than the safe driver.

If someone wants to take your seat in the train, and you know(for a fact) you will both get the exact same fine if you get into a fight, what would you do?

Having same blame gives the bully the advantage, because A) he probably cares more about gaining a place than losing safety B) The same thing for the saferacer, but the other way around(doesn't want to risk safety rating and doesn't mind losing a place to keep it). Couple that with the fact that you get safety points for close racing, and bullies kind of earn safety points by bullying(because 9/10 times the other will give way because of the psychology involved).

Look it's a bit like with Schumacher. After a while everybody was trained to get out of the way for him, until Montoya came along, he was having none of that(which led to some interesting clashes :) ).

Markus Ott
18-12-2017, 12:15
But you cannot decide whether someone really is a safe driver if he starts at pole a wins the race with a track length distance, can you? He just stays far in front from other people, but that's not the same as being a safe driver. Safety can be attributed to taking care of your own safety (not spinning/crashing) and taking care of the safety of other drivers (not ramming, avoiding contact). Apparently iRacing doesn't distinguish between the two, but pC2 weighs the latter heavier than the former. I don't see how that is bad.

What?
Someone who makes no fault at all and goes on to win the race is not a safe driver?! We seem to live in different worlds then.
It is like you'd say Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel are unsafe drivers and Maldonado or Grosjean are safe.
On top of it safe racing is a case of the guy behind AND in front. The slipstream rating only favors the guy behind, that guy can still be divebombing as often as he want, as long as the guy in front leaves him the room. So why does the divebomb guy get rating for coming from behind and the guy in front who left the space doesn't get something for it? For me the system is not fair at all.
If you look at the numbers online you can clearly see the system doesn't work. There is a huge number of high slipstream rating, low skill rating drivers out there. So they ended a lot of races at the back of the field, maybe because they are slow, but more probably because they crash all the time. Still the grinding system favors them and they grind their way up to a slipstream rating they don't deserve. You can not look at the slipstream rating without looking at the skill rating, because only people with high skill rating show that they are ended up front AND are safe.

The next thing, and yes I also have crash races that don't run as I wish, losing rating is almost impossible. I am A and I had an eight lap race with three car incidents and several off tracks. I didn't lose rating. I definetly deserved it after the race, but I didn't. I wonder how anyone could lose in slipstream rating if even such a bad race does not cost you rating. On the other side if you run a race weekend without any faults you get only 1% or 2% if you run up front. I think the system at least needs some more adjustment.

ironik
18-12-2017, 12:45
If someone wants to take your seat in the train, and you know(for a fact) you will both get the exact same fine if you get into a fight, what would you do?

Having same blame gives the bully the advantage, because A) he probably cares more about gaining a place than losing safety B) The same thing for the saferacer, but the other way around(doesn't want to risk safety rating and doesn't mind losing a place to keep it). Couple that with the fact that you get safety points for close racing, and bullies kind of earn safety points by bullying(because 9/10 times the other will give way because of the psychology involved).

Look it's a bit like with Schumacher. After a while everybody was trained to get out of the way for him, until Montoya came along, he was having none of that(which led to some interesting clashes :) ).

Ok, I get it.
If I understand it correctly, what you call "bullies" is drivers that "dive bomb" you ?
I am also a bit too cautious but when I back up from a driver it's not for my safety rating, it's because I think there is more to lose than to gain (wreck vs one position) or because I don't own the optimal line.

If the "bully" do it often, I bet he will get a lot of contacts whereas, cautious drivers won't. Maybe he'll stay out of problem 1/2, who knows?
Maybe it was just a mistake, or maybe he'll miss his turn (and lose SR).
I don't call that a "bully" but an agressive driver.

The fastest drivers are usually more agressive than the others. When they see an opportunity, they take it.
This is racing, not a polite run around a track after all.
I'm not that kind of drivers as I prefer to finish a race without damages than gain a position and then lose many because of a wreck or damages.

So, IMHO, the best way to counter these guys is to defend well by taking the inside line.

Anyway, as you said, it happens a lot in real life too and they don't get penalized for it if there is no heavy contact.
If someone take the inside line and breaks much later than you, he owns the corner and you have to let him pass.
The problem could be that he brakes too late : In this case, yeah you should back up a bit, let him overcook the corner and go away with a better exit (Easy to say, I know) ^^.

Is this bullying for you ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jezbabdxFc

I think that intimidation is part of the game, even if I don't like that :P


What?
Someone who makes no fault at all and goes on to win the race is not a safe driver?! We seem to live in different worlds then.

This guy is fast and stay on track. We can't say it's safe to drive around him.


[...]
On top of it safe racing is a case of the guy behind AND in front. The slipstream rating only favors the guy behind, that guy can still be divebombing as often as he want, as long as the guy in front leaves him the room. So why does the divebomb guy get rating for coming from behind and the guy in front who left the space doesn't get something for it? For me the system is not fair at all.

I don't know why you think that only the guy behind is having a SR bonus ?
I don't think this true, at all. You earn SR points while driving AROUND other players. You can be in front, behind or side by side and gain points.
That's what "around" means, right?


If you look at the numbers online you can clearly see the system doesn't work. There is a huge number of high slipstream rating, low skill rating drivers out there. So they ended a lot of races at the back of the field, maybe because they are slow, but more probably because they crash all the time. Still the grinding system favors them and they grind their way up to a slipstream rating they don't deserve. You can not look at the slipstream rating without looking at the skill rating, because only people with high skill rating show that they are ended up front AND are safe.

Again, how can you think that is beyond me.
If they have a high SR and low Skill points, this is just because they are cautious and not that fast or because they grinded to S (driving below their skill, still being safe off course).


The next thing, and yes I also have crash races that don't run as I wish, losing rating is almost impossible. I am A and I had an eight lap race with three car incidents and several off tracks. I didn't lose rating. I definetly deserved it after the race, but I didn't. I wonder how anyone could lose in slipstream rating if even such a bad race does not cost you rating. On the other side if you run a race weekend without any faults you get only 1% or 2% if you run up front. I think the system at least needs some more adjustment.

This point is much more interesting. Maybe there is a problem with SR, like cpcdem said.
The problem is that many guys complain about not being able to get away from U and E and on the other side, it seems you don't lose enough SR for mistakes when you have a high SR.
Maybe there is something to look at, I agree on that.

Sankyo
18-12-2017, 12:46
What?
Someone who makes no fault at all and goes on to win the race is not a safe driver?! We seem to live in different worlds then.

I clearly stated that safe driving consists of two aspects: keeping your car on the road, and staying out of contact with other cars.

Someone who is always in front at the start and never has to deal with other cars may be a very unsafe driver when driving in a pack, but you'll never know if he doesn't get in that situation. Therefore both aspects need to be taken into account, and I argue that being able to drive safely in a pack counts more than keeping you car on the road when you're in front, but that's just my opinion.

Mad Al
18-12-2017, 12:48
Markus, there is a difference between a safe driver and a safe RACER..

Interchangeable
18-12-2017, 12:53
Look. If you drive safe and don't hit other cars, then you get a better safety rating. If you beat better players with a better safety and skill rating than you then you'll gain more skill points. If you drive like your hair is on fire then you'll lose safety rating. If other racers with a lower skill rating are beating you then you'll lose (or only get a few points) points.

I drive every race as hard and as best as I can. Trying to put the car on pole or win the race. If you do that safely (Like I did, 98% of the time) then you'll get a good safety and a skill rating in no time at all (It took me around 25 hours to gain S rating.)

You need too ask yourself a question. Are racing to a get a good rating? or are you racing because you love racing and want a good hard fight to the top tiers? I did opition 2.

cpcdem
18-12-2017, 12:53
Sorry, you lost me at the last statement. Why can't it be trusted? Knowing how to obtain it still requires you to drive safely. Knowing that you can abuse the system and be an arse online after obtaining the S ranking doesn't mean anything, any system can be abused but that doesn't make the system bad. If you're intent to abuse the system, you can, because in the end it's based on the assumption that people race online to enjoy racing, and not to be a twat.

Not saying the system is bad in concept, on the contrary, I think it's one of the extremely good things in PC2. It just doesn't work right now IMO, but that's a matter of balancing it to improve it, not implying one bit that we should get rid of it! Btw, if the assumption "that people race online to enjoy racing" was true all the time, we wouldn't need a safety ranking system that much, would we? It's because a lot of people are bullies/noc lean drivers that we need such a system.

In the previous weeks, I was usually doing what the other guys here are saying, if I was seeing someone about to divebomb, I would give up the corner and do his thing, but that was not happening very often, at least not from high rank players. But now, it seems to be the norm from a lot of people..also bumping the other car to pass, pushing out of the road too avoid being overtook etc, even by A/S drivers. It's funny how many S drivers complain to low rank drivers for being dirty and then you watch the replay of the race and you realize they both have been extremely dirty..

Lately I decided I will not tolerate bullies anymore, so I play by those people's rules, I am having a lot of incidents, but my rating still stays as S. I assume the same happens to all others that are in A/S. I guess it was a double edged knife showing the % from one grade to the next, now people can see how much they gain/lose and react accordingly, they know how many incidents they can give away per race.. I really think there's some rebalancing needed, especially about losing rank much easier than what it is now.

Interchangeable
18-12-2017, 12:59
Lately I decided I will not tolerate bullies anymore, so I play by those people's rules, I am having a lot of incidents, but my rating still stays as S. I assume the same happens to all others that are in A/S. I guess it was a double edged knife showing the % from one grade to the next, now people can see how much they gain/lose and react accordingly, they know how many incidents they can give away per race.. I really think there's some rebalancing needed, especially about losing rank much easier than what it is now.

The ONLY way to deal with that is too keep a cool head and race on! There are and always will be idiots in online racing! I always try and use my experince to educate other players. Don't just swear or hit them cause they may have no idea what they've done wrong! Remeber not everyone watches motorsport on a regual bases! Explain what they've done wrong and how they can try to improve.

If you feel like they're doing something on purpose then use the vote to kick function or report them to the host!

Gysepy
18-12-2017, 13:03
The problem with these systems is that people start to obsess over it and nothing seems to matter anymore but your rating..... If you are fast, clean and winning races just keep doing what you are doing and forget about that letter and number. If you are not enjoying the racing then whats the point....

Interchangeable
18-12-2017, 13:06
The problem with these systems is that people start to obsess over it and nothing seems to matter anymore but your rating..... If you are fast, clean and winning races just keep doing what you are doing and forget about that letter and number. If you are not enjoying the racing then whats the point....

You'll see people defend 6th as if their and their families lives depended on it. Just so they don't lose 5 points!

MaximusN
18-12-2017, 13:23
I clearly stated that safe driving consists of two aspects: keeping your car on the road, and staying out of contact with other cars.

Someone who is always in front at the start and never has to deal with other cars may be a very unsafe driver when driving in a pack, but you'll never know if he doesn't get in that situation. Therefore both aspects need to be taken into account, and I argue that being able to drive safely in a pack counts more than keeping you car on the road when you're in front, but that's just my opinion.

But the question is, is being on your own AND safe taken into account at all? You shouldn't have to put yourself in danger to be able to gain any safety rating.

And still, if I agree to do a whole race of overtaking back and forth with some people I can skyrocket my safety rating even with some contacts. You can't do that with laps per incident that well because if takes a whole lot of laps. Overtakes can be 20 per lap if you want to.

rich1e I
18-12-2017, 13:25
Not saying the system is bad in concept, on the contrary, I think it's one of the extremely good things in PC2. It just doesn't work right now IMO, but that's a matter of balancing it to improve it, not implying one bit that we should get rid of it! Btw, if the assumption "that people race online to enjoy racing" was true all the time, we wouldn't need a safety ranking system that much, would we? It's because a lot of people are bullies/noc lean drivers that we need such a system.

In the previous weeks, I was usually doing what the other guys here are saying, if I was seeing someone about to divebomb, I would give up the corner and do his thing, but that was not happening very often, at least not from high rank players. But now, it seems to be the norm from a lot of people..also bumping the other car to pass, pushing out of the road too avoid being overtook etc, even by A/S drivers. It's funny how many S drivers complain to low rank drivers for being dirty and then you watch the replay of the race and you realize they both have been extremely dirty..

Lately I decided I will not tolerate bullies anymore, so I play by those people's rules, I am having a lot of incidents, but my rating still stays as S. I assume the same happens to all others that are in A/S. I guess it was a double edged knife showing the % from one grade to the next, now people can see how much they gain/lose and react accordingly, they know how many incidents they can give away per race.. I really think there's some rebalancing needed, especially about losing rank much easier than what it is now.

I think you can't judge people by one unfair action. People have good days and bad days, sometimes they're more sensitive or more aggressive. Nobody's perfect. Don't forget, if you're a bully you're never ever going to get an A or S rank, so we must differentiate to understand better.
I don't think it's a good idea to play by bullies' rules if you complain about such a behaviour. You let them draw you down to their level where they beat you with experience. You can only lose by doing that. If you don't agree with bullies, why be a bully as well?


The problem with these systems is that people start to obsess over it and nothing seems to matter anymore but your rating..... If you are fast, clean and winning races just keep doing what you are doing and forget about that letter and number. If you are not enjoying the racing then whats the point....

Yes absolutely. I really think the introduction of the performance rank was a bad idea. I said this before, racing is not important anymore. Gaining points is what it's all about now, and if they can't many would even stop playing the game. Really people? SMS really underestimated the negative effect the idea of accumulating something would have on the racing.

Sankyo
18-12-2017, 13:27
But the question is, is being on your own AND safe taken into account at all? You shouldn't have to put yourself in danger to be able to gain any safety rating.
...
That I don't know, I was assuming it is but it's not something I know the details of.

ironik
18-12-2017, 13:47
But the question is, is being on your own AND safe taken into account at all? You shouldn't have to put yourself in danger to be able to gain any safety rating.

And still, if I agree to do a whole race of overtaking back and forth with some people I can skyrocket my safety rating even with some contacts. You can't do that with laps per incident that well because if takes a whole lot of laps. Overtakes can be 20 per lap if you want to.

I'm pretty much sure it is taken into account. I went from D14 to D46 in three races (Pole and win, at least 5s ahead).

The problem you're facing, IMO, is that you don't race with fast enough drivers.

MaximusN
18-12-2017, 14:05
I'm pretty much sure it is taken into account. I went from D14 to D46 in three races (Pole and win, at least 5s ahead).

The problem you're facing, IMO, is that you don't race with fast enough drivers.

If I'm not mistaken safety rating is being calculated in Q too(opposed to skill rating where only races count).


That I don't know, I was assuming it is but it's not something I know the details of.

I don't know either, that's why I asked. :)

ironik
18-12-2017, 14:09
If I'm not mistaken safety rating is being calculated in Q too(opposed to skill rating where only races count).


Oh, yeah, you're probably right. If I remember correctly, I followed and passed some guys during qualification.
That would explain the quite big SR improvment.

cpcdem
18-12-2017, 17:13
I think you can't judge people by one unfair action. People have good days and bad days, sometimes they're more sensitive or more aggressive. Nobody's perfect. Don't forget, if you're a bully you're never ever going to get an A or S rank, so we must differentiate to understand better.
I don't think it's a good idea to play by bullies' rules if you complain about such a behaviour. You let them draw you down to their level where they beat you with experience. You can only lose by doing that. If you don't agree with bullies, why be a bully as well?


Unfortunately it's not like that anymore, there are a lot of bullies now that have made it to A and S. And because it has become obvious that it is very difficult to lose safety ranking, even at least 7-8 collisions per race do not make you fall from S, they don't care about it anymore, and when in a fight they just play completely dirty. It is not that they are newbies so make a mistake, it is obvious they do it deliberately again and again and to several people. Yesterday night we had a great GT3 race in Nuburgring, 4 of us fighting for 10 laps for the 4 first positions. One of us was a dive bomber, fast driver and he had an A rating I think but he did bump each of the other 3 of us at least a couple of times in order to overtake. At the end he even tried to throw the leader of of the road.

Similar thing to almost all other races, you will now see at least 2-3 fast A/S drivers that bully around. And if someone from lower ranking complains about their driving, one of them yesterday said to an "E" guy, "Looool, you are E ranking, so...". They think that because they have reached A or S they are clean and their actions are fair and ok, but they totally aren't. It's just that for the most part of the race they are clean, but when it comes to a close fight, they will bully their way out. I know, treating them the same way is not good and will not end nice, but on the other hand, if they always have it their way and have no consequences, what will stop them. I think the only answer is to make the system much more strict as the safety ranking goes up, in my opinion it should be made A LOT easier to lose safety ranking by having collisions, at least if you are an S,A,B driver.

MaximusN
18-12-2017, 17:19
Unfortunately it's not like that anymore, there are a lot of bullies now that have made it to A and S. And because it has become obvious that it is very difficult to lose safety ranking, even at least 7-8 collisions per race do not make you fall from S, they don't care about it anymore, and when in a fight they just play completely dirty. It is not that they are newbies so make a mistake, it is obvious they do it deliberately again and again and to several people. Yesterday night we had a great GT3 race in Nuburgring, 4 of us fighting for 10 laps for the 4 first positions. One of us was a dive bomber, fast driver and he had an A rating I think but he did bump each of the other 3 of us at least a couple of times in order to overtake. At the end he even tried to throw the leader of of the road.

Similar thing to almost all other races, you will now see at least 2-3 fast A/S drivers that bully around. And if someone from lower ranking complains about their driving, one of them yesterday said to an "E" guy, "Looool, you are E ranking, so...". They think that because they have reached A or S they are clean and their actions are fair and ok, but they totally aren't. It's just that for the most part of the race they are clean, but when it comes to a close fight, they will bully their way out. I know, treating them the same way is not good and will not end nice, but on the other hand, if they always have it their way and have no consequences, what will stop them. I think the only answer is to make the system much more strict as the safety ranking goes up, in my opinion it should be made A LOT easier to lose safety ranking by having collisions, at least if you are an S,A,B driver.

Same goes for blockers*. They think they can do that because you will be afraid of losing safety. Good tactic is to get your nose in in a safe place and if the do veer left or right they'll take themselves out(basically a self-PIT)

*=People weaving left and right duplicating every move you make, not a person driving a defensive line, that's fine.

cpcdem
18-12-2017, 17:19
Is this bullying for you ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jezbabdxFc

I think that intimidation is part of the game, even if I don't like that :P


No that was fine for me, aggressive and awesome racing, but fair and clean, even in that dangerous very-close-to-the-wall moment, the overtaking car gave (just :)) enough room to the other.

What I would call a dive bomb, is if at 1:35, in that right corner, the red car (which was not alongside the blue one in front) had dived into the corner, but he didn't. A lot of people now do exactly that, even if they are one or two car lengths behind, and if they car in front does not give all the corner to them to avoid a collision, a crash happens. And they are S/A drivers in many cases...

MaximusN
18-12-2017, 17:27
What I would call a dive bomb, is if at 1:35, in that right corner, the red car (which was not alongside the blue one in front) had dived into the corner, but he didn't. A lot of people now do exactly that, even if they are one or two car lengths behind, and if they car in front does not give all the corner to them to avoid a collision, a crash happens. And they are S/A drivers in many cases...
Yeah that. They just push you wide(almost opposite of the apex) and make you solve their overtake. Which I politely do, but I'm wondering if I will still let them... Takuma Kamikasato comes to mind...

cpcdem
18-12-2017, 17:27
Same goes for blockers*. They think they can do that because you will be afraid of losing safety. Good tactic is to get your nose in in a safe place and if the do veer left or right they'll take themselves out(basically a self-PIT)

*=People weaving left and right duplicating every move you make, not a person driving a defensive line, that's fine.

Yeah, absolutely agreed, it's full also of them now. It reminds me the days when I was racing in Grid 2 and that was the norm for 80% of the people, to block you and try to force you out to the walls. I think what happened is that in the beginning people were afraid to lose their safety ranking, so they weren't doing things like that and we had mostly clean races (above midfield at least). But now that they realized they can drive like that and still get away with it (by both winning and not losing safety ranking), so we get to see that behavior more and more often..

Btw, have to say that this not always the case, there are still plenty races with very close battles, fair and clean, and when you o get those, it is an absolute pleasure driving in this sim online. But unfortunately those races become more rare as time goes by, because one-two bullies are enough to spoil them..

cpcdem
18-12-2017, 17:28
Yeah that. They just push you wide and make you solve their overtake. Which I politely do, but I'm wondering if I will still let them...

Same as you, but now I decided I will not let them anymore...

Herege
18-12-2017, 17:29
Stay away from noob car category :p

MaximusN
18-12-2017, 17:36
Stay away from noob car category :p

Yeah, funny thing is, races in Gr.4, Gr.5 and VGTA are mostly fine. And some of those cars can be a handful. Bummer most of the filled servers are GT3(which are kind of boring if you ask me).

rich1e I
18-12-2017, 17:39
Unfortunately it's not like that anymore, there are a lot of bullies now that have made it to A and S. And because it has become obvious that it is very difficult to lose safety ranking, even at least 7-8 collisions per race do not make you fall from S, they don't care about it anymore, and when in a fight they just play completely dirty. It is not that they are newbies so make a mistake, it is obvious they do it deliberately again and again and to several people. Yesterday night we had a great GT3 race in Nuburgring, 4 of us fighting for 10 laps for the 4 first positions. One of us was a dive bomber, fast driver and he had an A rating I think but he did bump each of the other 3 of us at least a couple of times in order to overtake. At the end he even tried to throw the leader of of the road.

Similar thing to almost all other races, you will now see at least 2-3 fast A/S drivers that bully around. And if someone from lower ranking complains about their driving, one of them yesterday said to an "E" guy, "Looool, you are E ranking, so...". They think that because they have reached A or S they are clean and their actions are fair and ok, but they totally aren't. It's just that for the most part of the race they are clean, but when it comes to a close fight, they will bully their way out. I know, treating them the same way is not good and will not end nice, but on the other hand, if they always have it their way and have no consequences, what will stop them. I think the only answer is to make the system much more strict as the safety ranking goes up, in my opinion it should be made A LOT easier to lose safety ranking by having collisions, at least if you are an S,A,B driver.

OK, I'm not with you in the lobby so if you say it's like that it's actually sad. Bad apples maybe? You can only solve the problem by kicking those players, I mean it's mostly your and RWB guys' lobby, isn't it?

cpcdem
18-12-2017, 17:45
The ONLY way to deal with that is too keep a cool head and race on! There are and always will be idiots in online racing! I always try and use my experince to educate other players. Don't just swear or hit them cause they may have no idea what they've done wrong! Remeber not everyone watches motorsport on a regual bases! Explain what they've done wrong and how they can try to improve.

If you feel like they're doing something on purpose then use the vote to kick function or report them to the host!

Forgot to reply this, the problem with reporting to the host is that it would not be fair by a host to kick somebody because someone complains, there are a lot of people that complain but in the end they are actually the ones to blame. So the replay must be carefully watched first, before deciding to kick someone fairly, but I don't think this will work in random public lobbies, people want to race, not watch replays. It will work in organized leagues and in servers of guys like RWB, but in order to manage to do it, I think they have a couple guys not racing at all, but monitoring the qualifying/race instead..

About your first point, while I agree there are many people what don't have a clue that they are unfair in their racing, I am afraid unfortunately there are also a lot of people lately who are fast and know well what they are doing, but keep doing it since they know they will get away with it.

cpcdem
18-12-2017, 17:52
OK, I'm not with you in the lobby so if you say it's like that it's actually sad. Bad apples maybe? You can only solve the problem by kicking those players, I mean it's mostly your and RWB guys' lobby, isn't it?

When I race in the RWB lobbies, races have almost always been very clean and fair. But it's no solution being able to connect to just one group to be certain you will have a fair race..they guys might be in the final minutes of qualifying in front of a 20 or so minute race, you can't just wait half an hour to race. Or sometimes they pick some very peculiar car/track combo :) that you don't want to race into..

Btw, I am talking about PC online, don't know how the driving standards have evolved in the consoles.

Herege
18-12-2017, 17:54
Yeah, funny thing is, races in Gr.4, Gr.5 and VGTA are mostly fine. And some of those cars can be a handful. Bummer most of the filled servers are GT3(which are kind of boring if you ask me).

I fully agree.
And, It is precisely in these categories that I find racing cleaner players and more correct people and GT4/5 too. Sometimes someone always appears to destabilize, which is rare.

Charger
18-12-2017, 18:44
When I race in the RWB lobbies, races have almost always been very clean and fair. But it's no solution being able to connect to just one group to be certain you will have a fair race..they guys might be in the final minutes of qualifying in front of a 20 or so minute race, you can't just wait half an hour to race. Or sometimes they pick some very peculiar car/track combo :) that you don't want to race into..

Btw, I am talking about PC online, don't know how the driving standards have evolved in the consoles.

Our RWB lobbies are monitored by admins including myself, we usually set a qualy lap and take it in turns to watch and listen out on Discord for troublemakers and deal with them accordingly, this is why people rank up in our lobbies quite quickly, most of us are at S rating and it isn't because we don't race hard, quite the opposite in fact, it's easy to keep your safety rating with us but a lot harder to keep your driver points, some days I have been near s1600 and some days near s1400, it's very tough and we are constantly taking points off each other.

I don't do public lobbies for all the reasons stated before, no discipline, hosts that don't care what happens to other players being rammed or hosts that want to win and kick people that beat them, it's about the close racing with us, cpcdem joins us from time to time when he finds a car he likes and he is selective, if he knows the track he will race, if he doesn't he will sit out, this is the problem people find going in blind and expect to be competitive with a car and track they don't know, we mix it up but some nights stick to one car.

We don't really give a stuff about driver points but safety rating is important to us as it is earned the hard way, no point complaining about not getting your ratings up if you don't race against good players, we don't go noob hunting for glory points, it's boring.

Also safety rating as someone mentioned in qualy is not counted, it is only in race it is affected.

Simple answer is if you want to get your rating up quickly race with S rated players, even if they pass you and it's clean you will get safety points for that and vice versa, if you hit an S rated player it hurts your rating more than theirs if you are a lower rank.

beatrunner
18-12-2017, 18:53
as one of the guys almost daily hosting gt3 lobbies with D+ rating i just have to say we enjoy over 100 laps everyday in our safe gt3 lobbies.
as host it's my responsability/decision to keep the lobby clean. i for sure rather race only 3-4 guys than 30 in the crowded u lobbies. because these 3-4 guys (can be more ofcourse) can make for a great race without the fear of the usual ramming etc.

and for me personally 10-15 min of qualifing in such a lobby is enough to see how people behave on track. who can't let clearly faster cars just pass in quali and think this is already racing, usually doesn't make it into the race session but get informed/warned/and then kicked...

rich1e I
18-12-2017, 18:55
I'm pretty sure that SR counts in qualifying. I think Yorkie mentioned it as well in his latest video. It also counts during the cool down lap.

cpcdem
18-12-2017, 19:11
cpcdem joins us from time to time when he finds a car he likes and he is selective, if he knows the track he will race, if he doesn't he will sit out, this is the problem people find going in blind and expect to be competitive with a car and track they don't know, we mix it up but some nights stick to one car.


Ah, you got me wrong, when I ask you sometimes what's the next track, it's usually just out of curiosity because of that new bug where you don't see the newly selected track in the lobby. Or sometimes I am tired and want to go to sleep, but if your next race is in RBR or RA, I will stay for just one more :). No problem for me about tracks, it's only about the cars sometimes, because when I am not familiar with some and for example I don't know their braking points, it will end up badly in the race. Also I don't like formula cars, I cannot stand the idea that I need to use DRS in every single straight...

MaximusN
18-12-2017, 19:17
Also I don't like formula cars, I cannot stand the idea that I need to use DRS in every single straight...

I don't even have a button I can constantly press comfortably on my wheel all the time so I never use it. And the way it works(always available) totally defeats the purpose of the system, so I'd rather have it not there.

cpcdem
18-12-2017, 19:20
I don't even have a button I can constantly press comfortably on my wheel all the time so I never use it. And the way it works(always available) totally defeats the purpose of the system, so I'd rather have it not there.

We seem to totally agree on every single matter that much, that it's starting to freak me out! :)

MaximusN
18-12-2017, 19:53
We seem to totally agree on every single matter that much, that it's starting to freak me out! :)
Civil racers think alike? ;)

Charger
18-12-2017, 19:54
I'm pretty sure that SR counts in qualifying. I think Yorkie mentioned it as well in his latest video. It also counts during the cool down lap.

No it doesn't, if it did most of our racers would be a U rating as we have a a bit of a cooldown lap blowout to relieve stress and total each others cars for fun when it's just us in racing.

rich1e I
18-12-2017, 20:07
No it doesn't, if it did most of our racers would be a U rating as we have a a bit of a cooldown lap blowout to relieve stress and total each others cars for fun when it's just us in racing.

Watch Yorkie's video, the relevant part starts at 3:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=216&v=-WFDKD99SKg

Charger
18-12-2017, 20:10
Watch Yorkie's video, the relevant part starts at 3:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=216&v=-WFDKD99SKg

Well I still say it doesn't, I will test it tonight but I'm 99% sure it doesn't.

rich1e I
18-12-2017, 20:19
Well I still say it doesn't, I will test it tonight but I'm 99% sure it doesn't.

I think Yorkie knows what he's talking about. I guess you didn't notice because if you have close racing with minor incidents over 20 minutes and that the whole evening, some "cool down lap fun" after the race has not enough negative impact on your license.

Charger
18-12-2017, 20:30
Well qualy I'll maybe give you that but cooldown I still don't think so, we are going to test it with a non S rank player.

MaximusN
18-12-2017, 20:37
I think Yorkie knows what he's talking about. I guess you didn't notice because if you have close racing with minor incidents over 20 minutes and that the whole evening, some "cool down lap fun" after the race has not enough negative impact on your license.

He also said qually had less of an effect. And if you don't know how much less(half, one third, a quarter) it could get overlooked because the effect might be much smaller than you expect.

Markus Ott
18-12-2017, 21:40
It even works in practice (100% sure) but the effects on the rating are indeed lower than the race itself.
Most probably also because you don't race each other in prac and qual, but leave space to test out setups or do a fast lap, which then gives you not much rating anyways.

couffi
21-12-2017, 15:06
don't really know how much races i have done before going in S, but i reach it easyly and Fastly ..
Perhaps my driving is clean enough ..

MaximusN
21-12-2017, 20:25
don't really know how much races i have done before going in S, but i reach it easyly and Fastly ..
Perhaps my driving is clean enough ..

My profile says 97 online starts and I'm 28% up from A(so 72% until S), sounds pretty okay indeed. :)

Charger
21-12-2017, 20:30
Took me a week from launch to reach S, about 3-4 hours a night maybe 10x5 lap races a night, it doesn't take long if you are clean.

MaximusN
21-12-2017, 20:57
Took me a week from launch to reach S, about 3-4 hours a night maybe 10x5 lap races a night, it doesn't take long if you are clean.
And overtake/be overtaken/are in the vicinity of other cars a lot. If you race a lot of lonely races it will take you a lot longer.

Not getting into incidents only doesn't earn you any safety points, only if you also put yourself in danger(overtake/be overtaken)

Charger
21-12-2017, 23:38
And overtake/be overtaken/are in the vicinity of other cars a lot. If you race a lot of lonely races it will take you a lot longer.

Not getting into incidents only doesn't earn you any safety points, only if you also put yourself in danger(overtake/be overtaken)

That was with 20 racers on average but yes, being passed and passing and staying on the track helps, if you race with good racers it helps an awful lot.

I don't do lonely races, it's pointless, no enjoyment in racing and just staying safe, you have to push hard but safe.

Raysracing
22-12-2017, 19:09
I'm pretty new, but it true that going through a field cleanly is key to fast advancement (U-B at least). I was between C-B as I wasnt racng much and when I did, little advancement because I would start and end in the same spot. Had an 18th or something start because I had technical problems so started almost last. Got to 8th place, clean run and BAM, 40% progress and some safety rating too in one race. Wow! Dont know if this helped, but many of the people in the race were A,B,C rated. Does it matter if you beat higher ranked drivers? I dont think so.

Charger
22-12-2017, 23:43
It isn't difficult if you race with people you know are safe and get used to their driving style, we only do one league race a week the rest is open lobbies and we have some great racing....

247826

Edit, damn that is hard to read due to widescreen

zedeeyen
23-12-2017, 09:08
U-A was ridiculously fast. Pretty sure I jumped up some levels there in just one race. Certainly went from D to B without even noticing.

A-S is taking a looooong time though, the percentage only crawls up, even after a race where I've had 0 contact and 0 warnings or penalties.