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pferreirag60
24-01-2018, 12:24
I do not know if it could be called a bug, but what I discovered, because I spend most of my time on PCars2 running offline, usually 40-minute races, with rain in the middle of the race.
I always play with all the rules active (limits of the track.) Therefore during a race usually 2 to 3 times I pass the limits, something that I can only verify when seeing the replay of the race. Sometimes I was furious with the penalty that made me lose a lot more time than I ever won, if I won, given that I lost time because I put the outside wheels off the track and had to slow down.
One day at Le Mans, which has those limits on the straights, by mistake after a warning of track limits, I went back out again on the straight (limits) when I passed an AI, and noticed that for moments the warning message disappeared to return again, which led me to think that I had restarted the warning time. With this in mind I did a test, I left the track limits in the next straight near the next curve, I slowed down enough to the curve, to waste more time than necessary, and the warning message disappeared. With that in mind, in the following straight I did the same and at the end of the same straight I went out of the limits of the track to re-enter and brake hard at the beginning of the curve, the message disappeared again. In my opinion I did not waste any time with the penalties, so I have done maybe 5 or 6 track limits incursion in the same straight and at the end i could break very strong, loose more speed than needed and the warning message goes away, without a time penalty.

As I say in the title topic only at Le Mans, something like that is possible due to the track limits in the straights.

Plato99
25-01-2018, 16:00
I do not know if it could be called a bug, but what I discovered, because I spend most of my time on PCars2 running offline, usually 40-minute races, with rain in the middle of the race.
I always play with all the rules active (limits of the track.) Therefore during a race usually 2 to 3 times I pass the limits, something that I can only verify when seeing the replay of the race. Sometimes I was furious with the penalty that made me lose a lot more time than I ever won, if I won, given that I lost time because I put the outside wheels off the track and had to slow down.
One day at Le Mans, which has those limits on the straights, by mistake after a warning of track limits, I went back out again on the straight (limits) when I passed an AI, and noticed that for moments the warning message disappeared to return again, which led me to think that I had restarted the warning time. With this in mind I did a test, I left the track limits in the next straight near the next curve, I slowed down enough to the curve, to waste more time than necessary, and the warning message disappeared. With that in mind, in the following straight I did the same and at the end of the same straight I went out of the limits of the track to re-enter and brake hard at the beginning of the curve, the message disappeared again. In my opinion I did not waste any time with the penalties, so I have done maybe 5 or 6 track limits incursion in the same straight and at the end i could break very strong, loose more speed than needed and the warning message goes away, without a time penalty.

As I say in the title topic only at Le Mans, something like that is possible due to the track limits in the straights.

I've had exactly the same issue mate. Multiple false infringment warnings going down the Mulsanne Straight. I've got to a point where I have disabled warnings / penalties as it got too frustrating. Running slightly wide on the right hander before Mulsanne was giving me a multiple penalty, even though it can be argued that I gained absolutely nothing by running slightly wide.

satco1066
25-01-2018, 22:35
The problem is, there can only be one rule. Especialally one rule that everybody can look at and see.
The rule is, minimum one tire on track is good.
You can see the white line, thats the defined boarder of the track.
In pCARS1 there was no such precise line, thats why knowers of the tracks could cheat others.

Learn to drive following that rule and you'll have no penalties. Going wide in most situations clearly shows you were to fast and could not control the car.
This is what many experienced drivers see in public races. People think, they only get fast doing setups with low aero and other tricks.
That is true on the straits, but at the next corner they go wide and loose. Or push clean drivers off track. Car salad perfect.
People don't understand, that they cannot drive a 120 mp/h corner with 250. Sorry, this is not Need for Speed or Forza X.
pCARS2 cars follow physics not rails!

MuddyPaws73
25-01-2018, 22:51
The problem is, there can only be one rule. Especialally one rule that everybody can look at and see.
The rule is, minimum one tire on track is good.

I thought they changed that in PCar2 to half the vehicle must be over the white line?

cpcdem
25-01-2018, 22:52
Learn to drive following that rule and you'll have no penalties. Going wide in most situations clearly shows you were to fast and could not control the car.


Every single driver in real life racing goes at times slightly wider than that in every single track in existence, several times per race. It's part of racing and pushing and fighting that this will happen a few times, it's inevitable. Ask a real life racing driver to drive (edit:race) with this penalty system we currently have in the game, I'd really love to see the expression in his eyes..

satco1066
25-01-2018, 23:17
i know that, but as written above, there must be a clearly defined border.
Yes , sure it's sometimes frustrating, but w/o clear rule, replicable for everyone, chaos is back again.

You are right, IRL there are some places where off track is allowed, and the rules are not so hard. But there are many race directors, guys w/ flags and other people who have an eye on track.
Also before every race, there is a briefing for the drivers, clearing up whats allowed and whats not. That differs from race to race, class to class and track to track.
If you want to implement that to such a big a game, you have to write a very thick book.

Or, if the border is not the penalty line, you'll have to add a visible layer to every track, that can clearly be seen for every one ( would look totally crappy ) . But that would not help, 'cause
that discussion starts again. Why me, why here, why not 1cm more to the left, SMS does it wrong, etc, etc. It will never stop. If you make a mistake, stay for.
I remember endless discussions about that problem, to get clear rules and borders. Now we have them.

The best track to learn the current rule for me is Bathurst and Long Beach. Only few complaints for going wide, 'cause if you do it there most time you'll crash into the concrete boarder. ^^

satco1066
25-01-2018, 23:23
I thought they changed that in PCar2 to half the vehicle must be over the white line?

Somewhere here it was cleared by a mod, that its " one inside" and on some thick curbs "half of the car over it".

cpcdem
25-01-2018, 23:27
I think almost everybody agrees that the borders have been defined very well. Maybe there are few exceptions, but in general I think it's job well done there.

It's the strictness of the enforcement that is causing all the problems, frustrations and ruined races. If someone steals a single gum from a Super Market, they will not throw him immediately to jail, torture him and execute him the next day! (I hope this isn't how it works at least, but I haven't tried it yet :)). Especially if you don't do it on purpose, if you payed for 10 but accidentally your hand picked 11.. If they let us live for another day after going accidentally wide, I think there will be no complaints. OK, I know, this time I am indeed exaggerating, but...

satco1066
25-01-2018, 23:38
and the discussion starts again. ;)

We are men. We can make choices and excuses, good things and bad things. And cheat, as long nobody cares or catches.
This is driven by a machine. There is no maybe. Its only yes or no.

As said. Extend the border for e.g. the thicknes of one tire, you'll have complaints again. Why not 2 or 2 and a half, man. C'mon SMS, give us more.
And you'll have to concetrate on that new virtual line, that you can't see. No good solution.

Schnizz58
25-01-2018, 23:44
I think almost everybody agrees that the borders have been defined very well. Maybe there are few exceptions, but in general I think it's job well done there.
Well then I'd like to know what they are.

cpcdem
25-01-2018, 23:44
Come on, don't twist what I said. I didn't ask to extend the border. Only to not be so angry and punishing if I slightly cross the border once. Give me another chance...or two..especially if I didn't do it on purpose, or I just crossed the border by 30 cm and gained practically nothing. Don't completely ruin my race, slowdowns/penalties can be adjusted to be a lot more sensible.

And no, absolutely not, there's not only a yes or no for a machine, don't listen to those that say electronics work only with 1s and 0s...:)

cpcdem
25-01-2018, 23:53
Well then I'd like to know what they are.

Here, it was explained (after lot's of speculation from our end) very well by Bealdor:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58119-Race-Line-Penalties-Track-Limit&p=1440422&viewfull=1#post1440422

If you've got what it takes, try to read through the whole thread :)

satco1066
25-01-2018, 23:59
Come on, don't twist what I said. I didn't ask to extend the border. Only to not be so angry and punishing if I slightly cross the border once. Give me another chance...or two..especially if I didn't do it on purpose, or I just crossed the border by 30 cm and gained practically nothing. Don't completely ruin my race, slowdowns/penalties can be adjusted to be a lot more sensible.

And no, absolutely not, there's not only a yes or no for a machine, don't listen to those that say electronics work only with 1s and 0s...:)

got me wrong, it was just another example.

Yes i know, also know about fuzzy logic. Have studied all that long enough to earn my grade :p

Schnizz58
26-01-2018, 00:00
Here, it was explained (after lot's of speculation from our end) very well by Bealdor:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58119-Race-Line-Penalties-Track-Limit&p=1440422&viewfull=1#post1440422

If you've got what it takes, try to read through the whole thread :)

I was heavily involved with that thread but I came away from it more confused than I went in. So from Bealdor's explanation, there isn't in fact "one rule that everybody can look at and see". There are two rules and only one of them can be seen. So I can't agree that it's job well done.

satco1066
26-01-2018, 00:13
i wrote : Somewhere here it was cleared by a mod, that its " one inside" and on some thick curbs "half of the car over it". talking about whats allowed

Bealdor wrote: talking about what creates penalties
On straights/corners without kerbs: All four wheels are outside the white lines
Over kerbs (and sometimes grasscrete): More than 50% of the car are outside the kerbs/allowed surfaces

Clear?

I wrote "thick" curbs, because only there all 4 tires can be outside the white line and you would get a penalty w/o that exception.

BTW: the original clarification of the devs was about 40 lines. Those 2 are just the simple concentrade ;)

satco1066
26-01-2018, 00:30
What bothers me e.g. is the possibility to cheat in corners with yellow sausages, like 1st corner Red Bull Ring or 1st chikane at Monza.
IRL that are here to stop drivers from cutting this corners.

I often was at RBR and have made many photos and videos from there ( my home track ) . Porsche Supercup, F1,F2,F3, ELMS, DTM, etc.
IRL no driver cuts the first corner there. It's to dangerous.
But many experienced pCARS2 drivers do it, to gain some thenth.

cpcdem
26-01-2018, 00:50
I was heavily involved with that thread but I came away from it more confused than I went in. So from Bealdor's explanation, there isn't in fact "one rule that everybody can look at and see". There are two rules and only one of them can be seen. So I can't agree that it's job well done.

I said it's job well done in the sense that I don't see how it could be made better (the definition of the limits). I think it's very close to what is in practice allowable in real life, it allows going much on the kerbs (even though outside the white line) but still you need to be inside the white lines in all other places. To me it looks like a good compromise and I couldn't think of a better suggestion. It's the enforcement of those limits that brings me to my limits :)

Schnizz58
26-01-2018, 00:54
i wrote : Somewhere here it was cleared by a mod, that its " one inside" and on some thick curbs "half of the car over it". talking about whats allowed

Bealdor wrote: talking about what creates penalties
On straights/corners without kerbs: All four wheels are outside the white lines
Over kerbs (and sometimes grasscrete): More than 50% of the car are outside the kerbs/allowed surfaces

Clear?
No, see the post right above yours. How do I know when 50% of the car is over the imaginary line that you can sometimes see and sometimes can't?


I wrote "thick" curbs, because only there all 4 tires can be outside the white line and you would get a penalty w/o that exception.
So when I'm driving along and I see an upcoming kerb, how do I know if it's "thick" or not? How do I know what the limits are?


BTW: the original clarification of the devs was about 40 lines. Those 2 are just the simple concentrade ;)
If it takes 40 lines to describe the track limit rules, the track limit rules are too complicated.

As I see it, there are 3 problems:
The limits are ill-defined.
The algorithm that determines whether you've gained time or not through an excursion is inconsistent. [I've had laps deleted when I've come to a complete stop.]
The penalties for violating the limits are too draconian.

cpcdem
26-01-2018, 00:55
What bothers me e.g. is the possibility to cheat in corners with yellow sausages, like 1st corner Red Bull Ring or 1st chikane at Monza.
IRL that are here to stop drivers from cutting this corners.

I often was at RBR and have made many photos and videos from there ( my home track ) . Porsche Supercup, F1,F2,F3, ELMS, DTM, etc.
IRL no driver cuts the first corner there. It's to dangerous.
But many experienced pCARS2 drivers do it, to gain some thenth.

Yeah, completely agreed on that one. I also try to go through there (in RBR) because I know it is faster this way, but I don't like it that I have to do that to be fast.
Probably for yellow sausages the rule should be that no wheel should go outside them. Or even better, make the car unsettle very much when going over them. Right now it's relatively easy to go there with a GT3, which I think is not easy in IRL as you say.

Schnizz58
26-01-2018, 00:56
I said it's job well done in the sense that I don't see how it could be made better (the definition of the limits).
Let me help you. If you have more than 2 tires completely over the white lines, you're violating the track limits. There...simple and clear.

cpcdem
26-01-2018, 00:59
As I see it, there are 3 problems:
The limits are ill-defined.
The algorithm that determines whether you've gained time or not through an excursion is inconsistent. [I've had laps deleted when I've come to a complete stop.]
The penalties for violating the limits are too draconian.

I think that for (1), there's no perfect solution, some compromise must be made. Or paint the limit in red line so that it is always clear, but of course this can't be done.
I am sure that if (2) and (3) get rectified, then (1) will not be a problem anymore, at least not in 95% of the cases.

Schnizz58
26-01-2018, 01:01
I think that for (1), there's no perfect solution, some compromise must be made.
Why must we compromise? Have a simple to understand and easy to follow rule and then everybody knows where the limit is.

cpcdem
26-01-2018, 01:03
Let me help you. If you have more than 2 tires completely over the white lines, you're violating the track limits. There...simple and clear.

See the 1st image in this post:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58119-Race-Line-Penalties-Track-Limit&p=1439880&viewfull=1#post1439880

If it is implemented the way you suggest, then this would be a track limit violation. The problem is that every single driver goes there in real life. Similar at many kerbs at Spa for example and virtually every other track.

Schnizz58
26-01-2018, 01:05
I have no problem with that. If you want the kerb as part of the track, paint the white line outside of it.

cpcdem
26-01-2018, 01:08
Well, yeah, but in reality the white line is where it is shown in game. If they had pained it outside, people would accuse them of reproducing the track completely wrongly...so compromises...

Schnizz58
26-01-2018, 01:09
So then don't paint it outside the kerbs. Still no compromise.

kevin kirk
26-01-2018, 01:38
does the game enforce the same rules and marks all the time and for everyone playing it or are you saying sometimes the games calls it out of bounds and other times it doesnt? If so just follow the guide lines or marks the game makes everyone follow.

Schnizz58
26-01-2018, 01:40
does the game enforce the same rules and marks all the time and for everyone playing it or are you saying sometimes the games calls it out of bounds and other times it doesnt? If so just follow the guide lines or marks the game makes everyone follow.

Was that directed at me? If so, that's the utopia I would like to get to but until those limits are well-defined, it's pretty hard to follow them.

kevin kirk
26-01-2018, 02:17
Was that directed at me? If so, that's the utopia I would like to get to but until those limits are well-defined, it's pretty hard to follow them.

....just to the thread or OP in general. I'm just asking if everyone is getting a penalty for doing the same thing or is it not consistent with where out of bounds is thats all.

sas5320
26-01-2018, 02:24
I think somethig that coukd help would be to allow the lobby admin to set the number of warnings before penalties are assigned for both minor and major infractions (separately). This will allow the community to conrol how strict/lenient the races will be. Right now it is kind of "hard-coded" according to some SMS logic/decision, our only recourse is to totally disable the penalty system which is a bit of throwing baby out with bath water imo

Schnizz58
26-01-2018, 02:30
I think it's consistent in that if you get a penalty at a certain point on the track, you will get a penalty on the next lap too if you do the same thing. I'm not completely convinced that it consistently enforces the rules. There have been a lot of cases where I thought I was in bounds and got a penalty. But with the rules the way they are, it's hard to be sure.

satco1066
26-01-2018, 23:45
No, see the post right above yours. How do I know when 50% of the car is over the imaginary line that you can sometimes see and sometimes can't?


Did you ever sit in a real car as driver?
IRL you don't see any of your tires and do not know exactly where you are positioned.
You also don't see the gab between your car and that of the guy beneath.
Its the experience that gives you the right feel for that. Plus/minus a little gap. There is nothing exact.

In a game there must be an exact trigger line, indifferent where this is located.

So as IRL, to be on the save side, try to be a little bit more then exact 50% inside the allowed area and you won't fail, won't loose time and rise.
It's total nonses to do an endless debate on millimeters , when controling a device thats 2 and more meters wide.

If there is a concrete wall, i think you would try to not touch it, so why not do the same if it's only a white line?
Both have the same function but fortunatelly with different impact.

So the question is not "Why does SMS so bad penalties on me?" , you should ask " Why can't i stay between two lines?"

BTW: now i found the best 50% role example for those who attempt to not understand it.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58119-Race-Line-Penalties-Track-Limit&p=1439880&viewfull=1#post1439880

Schnizz58
30-01-2018, 13:50
Did you ever sit in a real car as driver?
IRL you don't see any of your tires and do not know exactly where you are positioned.
You also don't see the gab between your car and that of the guy beneath.
Its the experience that gives you the right feel for that. Plus/minus a little gap. There is nothing exact.

I can't see my ass either but I know where it is.

It's an important skill in driving -- especially racecar driving -- to know where your tires are. I'm sorry that you haven't developed that skill.


In a game there must be an exact trigger line, indifferent where this is located.
Yes, I would like to have such an exact trigger line. I don't care where it is as long as it's well-defined.


So as IRL, to be on the save side, try to be a little bit more then exact 50% inside the allowed area and you won't fail, won't loose time and rise.
Agreed. Give me an allowed area that's well-defined and we're both happy.


If there is a concrete wall, i think you would try to not touch it, so why not do the same if it's only a white line?
If it's a white line, I will. If it's a mysterious, arbitrary line midway down the middle of my car, I won't because I don't know where it is.


So the question is not "Why does SMS so bad penalties on me?" , you should ask " Why can't i stay between two lines?"
Well first of all, I never asked the first question. As for the second one, I already know the answer: Because I don't know how much of my car can be over that line.


BTW: now i found the best 50% role example for those who attempt to not understand it.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sho...=1#post1439880
That's the same thing that cpcdem posted. In both photos, the car is outside the track limits.

cpcdem
30-01-2018, 17:17
Really, the rule itself for track limits is straightforward:

- If there are no kerbs, (at least) 2 wheels must be inside the white lines
- If there are kerbs, 2 wheels must be inside the white lines OR the center of the car must be within the center "line" of the kerbs.

The definition itself is very straightforward and unambiguous, but I agree it's very often very hard to tell while driving, where's exactly that center of the kerbs, especially while turning in tight turns. Painting a line over the kerbs is not an option I think, but maybe changing the second rule like that would make things clearer:

- If there are kerbs, 2 wheels must be inside the white lines OR the outer wheels must be over the kerbs (not over the asphalt/grass outside the kerbs)

I am wondering, has this alternative been considered during the WMD days while developing the game? With a first thought this sounds like it would solve all issues, although I might be overlooking something of course.

Edit: It also looks closer to me to what is happening in real racing and what is (silently) allowed in them.

Schnizz58
30-01-2018, 17:27
Really, the rule itself for track limits is straightforward:

- If there are no kerbs, (at least) 2 wheels must be inside the white lines
- If there are kerbs, 2 wheels must be inside the white lines OR the center of the car must be within the center "line" of the kerbs.
For the most part yes. But then there is the exception that Bealdor mentioned "and sometimes grasscrete". So again, how do we know? Also, the rule doesn't say anything about the center of the kerb. It says "More than 50% of the car are outside the kerbs/allowed surfaces". So even you have misinterpreted this "straightforward" rule. And what does the "More than 50% of the car" actually mean? Does it mean that no part of the car outside of the centerline of the car can be over the kerb? Does it mean that >50% of the area of the car must remain inside of the outside edge of the kerb? How does this work on curves (where the kerbs are likely to be)? I don't think it's quite as straightforward as you do.


it's very often very hard to tell while driving, where's exactly that center of the kerbs, especially while turning in tight turns.
This is all I've been saying from the beginning. The rule needs to be easier to obey. I don't mind having track limits. I don't mind getting penalized for exceeding them. I just want to know where those limits are.


Painting a line over the kerbs is not an option I think
Probably not but they effectively have repainted the track by placing kerbs inside the track limits.


maybe changing the second rule like that would make things clearer:

- If there are kerbs, 2 wheels must be inside the white lines OR the outer wheels must be over the kerbs (not over the asphalt/grass outside the kerbs)
I think it would be better to say that the outer wheels can be on the kerbs but over the kerbs is a violation. That would be an improvement over the current situation. Still it's simpler to just say that two wheels must be within the track limits, period.

cpcdem
30-01-2018, 18:01
For the most part yes. But then there is the exception that Bealdor mentioned "and sometimes grasscrete". So again, how do we know? Also, the rule doesn't say anything about the center of the kerb. It says "More than 50% of the car are outside the kerbs/allowed surfaces". So even you have misinterpreted this "straightforward" rule. And what does the "More than 50% of the car" actually mean? Does it mean that no part of the car outside of the centerline of the car can be over the kerb? Does it mean that >50% of the area of the car must remain inside of the outside edge of the kerb? How does this work on curves (where the kerbs are likely to be)? I don't think it's quite as straightforward as you do.


I think the rule is exactly the way that I wrote it, just phrased it a bit different, so I think it's a bit easier to understand. If I am wrong, please someone corect me, but I don;t think so.

Look, I understand you want a very clear and easy to follow rule, but (although it would be ideal if we could have it) I think this is extremely difficult to implement in racing. I mean it's not like tennis, where there's no controversy if the ball was in or out of court, in real life racing there's a lot of gray area. I know, the rules are actually clear (2 wheels inside white lines), but in practice, in every single race, you have dozens of drivers going slightly off those limits over the (large) kerbs and are not penalized. So enforcing such strict limits would make the sim a lot different to what happens in reality (we already have that on the strictness of the penalties).

Schnizz58
30-01-2018, 18:10
I think the rule is exactly the way that I wrote it, just phrased it a bit different, so I think it's a bit easier to understand. If I am wrong, please someone corect me, but I don;t think so.
Here's what Bealdor wrote, C&P:

On straights/corners without kerbs: All four wheels are outside the white lines
Over kerbs (and sometimes grasscrete): More than 50% of the car are outside the kerbs/allowed surfaces

It says nothing about the center of the kerb.


Look, I understand you want a very clear and easy to follow rule, but (although it would be ideal if we could have it) I think this is extremely difficult to implement in racing.
I've already shown how it can be clear and easy to follow. And by the way, this is the way it's usually defined in real racing.


I mean it's not like tennis, where there's no controversy if the ball was in or out of court, in real life racing there's a lot of gray area. I know, the rules are actually clear (2 wheels inside white lines), but in practice, in every single race, you have dozens of drivers going slightly off those limits over the (large) kerbs and are not penalized. So enforcing such strict limits would make the sim a lot different to what happens in reality (we already have that on the strictness of the penalties).
That depends on how it's enforced. In real racing, a certain number of transgressions are generally forgiven before penalties start getting handed out. I think that's a good thing. You shouldn't get a penalty for one minor infraction. But if there is a pattern of exceeding the limits, then usually you get a final warning followed by a penalty for further violations. Enforcement of the penalties is a separate issue, and one that also needs adjusting but before we can do that, the limits themselves have to be corrected.

cpcdem
30-01-2018, 18:26
Here's what Bealdor wrote, C&P:

On straights/corners without kerbs: All four wheels are outside the white lines
Over kerbs (and sometimes grasscrete): More than 50% of the car are outside the kerbs/allowed surfaces

It says nothing about the center of the kerb.


Ouch, sorry! I should had said:

- If there are no kerbs, (at least) 2 wheels must be inside the white lines
- If there are kerbs, 2 wheels must be inside the white lines OR the center of the car must be within(over) any part of the kerbs.

Apologies for the confusion, but still I think those rules are very straightforward. Why I still managed to write them down wrongly is a different topic :)



That depends on how it's enforced. In real racing, a certain number of transgressions are generally forgiven before penalties start getting handed out. I think that's a good thing. You shouldn't get a penalty for one minor infraction. But if there is a pattern of exceeding the limits, then usually you get a final warning followed by a penalty for further violations. Enforcement of the penalties is a separate issue, and one that also needs adjusting but before we can do that, the limits themselves have to be corrected.

I completely agree with that, a much more lenient penalty/slowdown enforcement system would solve almost all problems. Harshly penalize blatant track cuts, but allow several very slight minor going wide moments and everybody will be happy.

Schnizz58
30-01-2018, 18:36
Ouch, sorry! I should had said:

- If there are no kerbs, (at least) 2 wheels must be inside the white lines
- If there are kerbs, 2 wheels must be inside the white lines OR the center of the car must be within(over) any part of the kerbs.
That's pretty much how the rule is now! You still need to define what the center of the car means. You still need to explain how it will be applied in curves. You still have the problem of the driver not knowing exactly where the center of the car is. So this really is no improvement.

Now, if you want to define it in terms of where the tires are I could live with that. So the rule is: there must be two tires inside the track limit, where the track limit is defined as the white lines or the kerbs in places where there are kerbs.

But the kerbs have alligator teeth in them to discourage people from driving there. So it makes no sense to me to include them as part of the track.


Apologies for the confusion, but still I think those rules are very straightforward. Why I still managed to write them down wrongly is a different topic :)
That's OK. You helped prove my point that they aren't that straightforward after all.

cpcdem
30-01-2018, 19:25
Now, if you want to define it in terms of where the tires are I could live with that. So the rule is: there must be two tires inside the track limit, where the track limit is defined as the white lines or the kerbs in places where there are kerbs.

This way, you would be able to put the inner wheels on the edge of the kerbs and the outer ones very far out off the track...if you changed it to "(1) there must be two tires inside the white lines where there are no kerbs, and (2) in places where there are kerbs there must be either two tires inside the white lines OR all tires on kerbs/road" I would completely agree.

Schnizz58
30-01-2018, 19:30
This way, you would be able to put the inner wheels on the edge of the kerbs and the outer ones very far out off the track...if you changed it to "(1) there must be two tires inside the white lines where there are no kerbs, and (2) in places where there are kerbs there must be either two tires inside the white lines OR all tires on kerbs/road" I would completely agree.

That's even better. The point is that the limits are defined in terms of the location of something the driver can get a mental grip on instead of an arbitrary point in space.

cpcdem
30-01-2018, 19:36
Yeah, completely agreed this time! Sounds the most intuitive way to me and very close to what happens in practice in real life, so I am wondering if they had already considered this approach and possibly found a flaw to it...

satco1066
31-01-2018, 00:20
nitpicking. Its all about the discussion. All you seem to want is "you're right in your definitions"
You only accept the right point, yours, so far. Nevertheless if a definition is the same.

eg.
I write about experience to know where the tires are located
you write No, its the skill.

And if you cannot unterstand the simple rules shown by the photos from Bealdor, it seems to be a simple problem by yourself.
It seems to be, you just like to negate everything.
Otherway arround, you say he is lying.

thats ridicolus.

And please , appologise, my english is maybe not that skilled, that all i've written is good enough, to not be misunderstood. I'm not a native speaker.

Schnizz58
31-01-2018, 01:32
Satco, I'm going to try one more time to explain it to you. I don't know why because you seem hellbent on misunderstanding what it is I'm on about. But I know that English isn't native for you so I'm going to try to be patient with you. Here you go point-by-point.


nitpicking. Its all about the discussion. All you seem to want is "you're right in your definitions"
You only accept the right point, yours, so far. Nevertheless if a definition is the same.

eg.
I write about experience to know where the tires are located
you write No, its the skill.
You completely missed the point here. The point is that a driver knows with more accuracy where his tires are than where the middle of his car is. That's just a fact. He needs to know where the tires are so that he can drive it effectively. So he learns that. When a driver drives from one surface to another, he can feel it and then he knows that's where that tire is in relation to himself. He has no particular reason to know where the center of the car is and he doesn't really have a good way of learning it. So it makes more sense to reference the track limits to the tires than to some arbitrary point, line or area on the car. You want to call it experience, fine. We can go with that. Call it whatever you want. The name isn't the point.


And if you cannot unterstand the simple rules shown by the photos from Bealdor, it seems to be a simple problem by yourself.

The issue is more that the rules are hard to obey than hard to understand. (Although part of the reason they're hard to obey is that they're incomplete.) The main reason they're hard to obey is what I wrote above. They are tied to an arbitrary reference rather than something concrete.
If you understand the rules then please answer the following questions:
1. What does "more than 50% of the car" mean?
2. Which grasscrete areas are considered kerbs?
3. Why should kerbs be considered part of the track?
4. How is the rule applied on curves?


Otherway arround, you say he is lying.
Bullshit! I never accused anyone of lying.


thats ridicolus.
indeed


And please , appologise, my english is maybe not that skilled, that all i've written is good enough, to not be misunderstood. I'm not a native speaker.
Yeah nice try. What I understand is that you said I called somebody a liar. You don't get to say that and hide behind your lack of English skills (or experience if you prefer).

Plato99
31-01-2018, 15:51
The problem is, there can only be one rule. Especialally one rule that everybody can look at and see.
The rule is, minimum one tire on track is good.
You can see the white line, thats the defined boarder of the track.
In pCARS1 there was no such precise line, thats why knowers of the tracks could cheat others.

Learn to drive following that rule and you'll have no penalties. Going wide in most situations clearly shows you were to fast and could not control the car.
This is what many experienced drivers see in public races. People think, they only get fast doing setups with low aero and other tricks.
That is true on the straits, but at the next corner they go wide and loose. Or push clean drivers off track. Car salad perfect.
People don't understand, that they cannot drive a 120 mp/h corner with 250. Sorry, this is not Need for Speed or Forza X.
pCARS2 cars follow physics not rails!

Thanks for the patronising reply. Note to self, it isn't Forza.......

If i avoid the inevitable pileup on the right hander before Mulsanne by taking evasion action and crossing the white line (even though I slowed down) does that make me out of control and going too fast? I mean, making sweeping generalisms is absolutely fine if that's the case :)

Maybe implementing the white line coupled with a "maximum speed" rule is the answer?
i.e. if we cross the line AND slow down to say, 60kph, we dont get a penalty? That would show the "brain working this stuff out" that yes I did cross the line, but I was driving at a crawl to avoid rear-ending that green Ginetta that always seems to get in trouble at LeMans.

Plato99
31-01-2018, 16:02
As a marshall IRL, if we observe a driver breaking track limits and report it to Race Control, it is most likely that RC would then ask us to put out a black/white flag to warn them of their unsporstmanlike conduct. RC wouldn't automatically impose a time penalty or a stop-go because of one track limit infringement. A repeat offender would, yes.

rich1e I
31-01-2018, 18:10
Just a few days ago a very competitive e-sports racer who’s taken part in every single ESL Go4 final so far clearly said that he enjoys being fast with cutting and being 2 metres off the white lines, so this kind of guys, whose determination of earning those 100 bucks is stronger than the will to stick to principles like fairness and sportsmanship (given they have any at all), will always exploit the warning system. Going off track won’t be just by mistake but to gain advantage until they got the last warning. Where’s the achievement in winning after having cut and extended the hell out of the track? Wouldn’t it be a much bigger success winning with fairness and respecting both your competitors and also the rules, which always say that drivers must use the track all of the time?
Quite disappointing when you read such things from competitive e-sports drivers.

Warnings are not coming to pCARS, at least Ian Bell said so. Can’t wait to see what they come up with.

cpcdem
31-01-2018, 18:29
I think we almost all agree that cutting by going 2 meters off track should be punished. (well unless it's on large kerbs like those of Watkins or Spa)

Do you have a link to where he said that? And/or a link to video of his race where he was doing that? Not disputing you, just interested to have a close look.

rich1e I
31-01-2018, 18:35
I think we almost all agree that cutting by going 2 meters off track should be punished. (well unless it's on large kerbs like those of Watkins or Spa)

Do you have a link to where he said that? And/or a link to video of his race where he was doing that? Not disputing you, just interested to have a close look.

Well, I'm not going to expose or name and shame anyone here. I can send you a private message with his exact words if you want.

cpcdem
31-01-2018, 18:42
Well, I'm not going to expose or name and shame anyone here. I can send you a private message with his exact words if you want.

Ah, I thought he had said that in a forum or something, so it was public already. Do you have a video showing that he did that and got away with it? If yes, then please PM it to me to have a look, thanks! But if he just said that he wants to do that, but he can't actually do it in practice, then it doesn't really matter, does it? :)

rich1e I
31-01-2018, 18:47
Ah, I thought he had said that in a forum or something, so it was public already. Do you have a video showing that he did that and got away with it? If yes, then please PM it to me to have a look, thanks! But if he just said that he wants to do that, but he can't actually do it in practice, then it doesn't really matter, does it? :)

No, he didn't say it in a forum but publically so his words are still there. He was just complaining about the penalty system being too strict as he enjoys being fast with cutting and going off track lol I was like 'huh??'

cpcdem
31-01-2018, 18:55
No, he didn't say it in a forum but publically so his words are still there. He was just complaining about the penalty system being too strict as he enjoys being fast with cutting and going off track lol I was like 'huh??'

Ah, ok, thanks for clarifying. Well, apparently he's like Verstapen who's also very fast and liked doing that, too, but he didn't get his way either :)
Of course the cut track detection/penalty system is absolutely necessary IMO, in order to avoid situations like that. Just make the slowdown penalties more sane and we'll all (most of us anyway) be happy.

BrunoB
31-01-2018, 19:04
Maybe implementing the white line coupled with a "maximum speed" rule is the answer?
i.e. if we cross the line AND slow down to say, 60kph, we dont get a penalty? That would show the "brain working this stuff out" that yes I did cross the line, but I was driving at a crawl to avoid rear-ending that green Ginetta that always seems to get in trouble at LeMans.
Seriously! That could be a pretty useable and SIMPLE rule - and because it is SIMPLE then it should also be reasonable easy to imply in the code.

Related to this then my hate "sim" iceRacing actually has such kind of feature/rule.
But I have only experienced it in free Practice where you allways get collected some socalled inc(cidents) if you go off track. :yes:
But if you do it purposedly AND SLOW! like as example you are running out of fuel - or if your wife are calling from the bedroom so you want to ESC the game - then the game senses if you are only driving about 10 km/h and you get no incīs.

Another thing related to this is that Im not sure pCars2 does know precisely where the 4 wheels of a car is positioned!
Again taken from iceRacing then this "sim" only know where the middle of the car is positioned - not where the wheels is.
So...

cpcdem
31-01-2018, 19:31
Another thing related to this is that Im not sure pCars2 does know precisely where the 4 wheels of a car is positioned!
Again taken from iceRacing then this "sim" only know where the middle of the car is positioned - not where the wheels is.
So...

Well, in the telemetry data the game provides detailed information about each wheel, what kind of surface there's underneath each one, in what height (if any) it's currently off the road etc, so I am pretty sure PCARS2 does know precisely all that info!

Schnizz58
31-01-2018, 19:35
Maybe implementing the white line coupled with a "maximum speed" rule is the answer?
i.e. if we cross the line AND slow down to say, 60kph, we dont get a penalty? That would show the "brain working this stuff out" that yes I did cross the line, but I was driving at a crawl to avoid rear-ending that green Ginetta that always seems to get in trouble at LeMans.
It kinda works that way already doesn't it? If I penalize myself by lifting when I run off, sometimes I can avoid a penalty altogether. It sort of seems that if you self-penalize, you get off easier than if the game has to penalize you.



Another thing related to this is that Im not sure pCars2 does know precisely where the 4 wheels of a car is positioned!
Again taken from iceRacing then this "sim" only know where the middle of the car is positioned - not where the wheels is.
So...
That would explain a lot but I don't see how the game can't know where the wheels are. It has to know what type of surface they're on right? So in order to do that it has to know where they are. But who knows...

BrunoB
31-01-2018, 19:58
Well, in the telemetry data the game provides detailed information about each wheel, what kind of surface there's underneath each one, in what height (if any) it's currently off the road etc, so I am pretty sure PCARS2 does know precisely all that info!
Yeah it sounds so obvious that the physics engine in games like pCars2 and iceRacing knows this stuff - but at least conserning pCars2 Im not sure.

But conserning iceRacing then you can deduct all possible values about the 4 tires and the 4 different rideheights and stuff via a real telemetry program: MoteC:)
But that has absolutely nothing to do with if the engine exactly know where the 4 wheels are positioned in relation to the current track.

My info about iceRacing is not a secret because the devs have openly told it connected to the same talk as here: common fairplay according to track limits.
Resume: Telemetry says nothing about what the game engine knows.

cpcdem
31-01-2018, 20:04
Resume: Telemetry says nothing about what the game engine knows.

I am talking about the telemetry data that the game provides itself to telemetry apps. Not data that can be deducted by the telemetry apps :)

BrunoB
31-01-2018, 21:17
I am talking about the telemetry data that the game provides itself to telemetry apps. Not data that can be deducted by the telemetry apps :)
Without pressing your argumentation too much - then this is nitpicking.
A telemetry app cannot deduct something the game dont provide - but often calculate a 3rd param from 2 more basic ones.

But my point was that just like in iceRacing you cannot conclude that because there is some telemetry data displaying as example ride height and maybe tarmac property
- then the game engine also know exactly where the 4 wheels are positioned according to the track limits.
pCars physics engine maybe does but none of us know because we cant use such simple deduction.

cpcdem
31-01-2018, 22:18
This is a small part of the large data the game itself provides to 3rd party apps through it's API (you can take this from https://www.projectcarsgame.com/project-cars-2-api.html?lang=en):

unsigned int mTerrain[TYRE_MAX]; // [ enum (Type#11) Terrain Materials ]

this represents a 4 item long array (TYRE_MAX=4, one item for each wheel), and each item provides info about the terrain type (asphalt/kerbs/grass/etc) under each wheel. This data is updated 600 times per second at realtime by the game while driving and I am seeing it changing to different appropriate values exactly at the time I see (in chase cam) each of the wheels in my car go to a different terrain type than before.

So the game does know exactly where each wheel is placed at any time. Really, if this still doesn't persuade you, nothing will I am sure :)

Tar Heel
01-02-2018, 04:06
i know that, but as written above, there must be a clearly defined border.
Yes , sure it's sometimes frustrating, but w/o clear rule, replicable for everyone, chaos is back again.

You are right, IRL there are some places where off track is allowed, and the rules are not so hard. But there are many race directors, guys w/ flags and other people who have an eye on track.
Also before every race, there is a briefing for the drivers, clearing up whats allowed and whats not. That differs from race to race, class to class and track to track.
If you want to implement that to such a big a game, you have to write a very thick book.

Or, if the border is not the penalty line, you'll have to add a visible layer to every track, that can clearly be seen for every one ( would look totally crappy ) . But that would not help, 'cause
that discussion starts again. Why me, why here, why not 1cm more to the left, SMS does it wrong, etc, etc. It will never stop. If you make a mistake, stay for.
I remember endless discussions about that problem, to get clear rules and borders. Now we have them.

The best track to learn the current rule for me is Bathurst and Long Beach. Only few complaints for going wide, 'cause if you do it there most time you'll crash into the concrete boarder. ^^

It would be nice if they had a two to three strike system instead of this slow down system. After the second or third strike you get a time penalty and after that you get a drive through.

I would prefer that system to the current one. Currently the time it takes to slow down is way more severe than almost any time advantage I would have gained from slightly leaving the track limits. It is actually worth taking that first time penalty most the time over slowing down to avoid it because the 4 second penalty you get for ignoring it is usually less severe than if you try and avoid the penalty and slow down.

The current system is also not very transparent in how long your slow down penalty is which is another source for why a lot of people don't like it.

I agree with you a penalty system needs to be in place, but I think OP has a point that the current system needs improvement.

NateDawg
01-02-2018, 05:56
This is a small part of the large data the game itself provides to 3rd party apps through it's API (you can take this from https://www.projectcarsgame.com/project-cars-2-api.html?lang=en):

unsigned int mTerrain[TYRE_MAX]; // [ enum (Type#11) Terrain Materials ]

this represents a 4 item long array (TYRE_MAX=4, one item for each wheel), and each item provides info about the terrain type (asphalt/kerbs/grass/etc) under each wheel. This data is updated 600 times per second at realtime by the game while driving and I am seeing it changing to different appropriate values exactly at the time I see (in chase cam) each of the wheels in my car go to a different terrain type than before.

So the game does know exactly where each wheel is placed at any time. Really, if this still doesn't persuade you, nothing will I am sure :)

Terrain material doesn't equal location though? So unless it is passing the x,y location of each wheel (what part of the wheel does it record co-ordinates for? inside, outside, centre?) then the penalty system module won't know WHERE in relation to the defined track limits (presumable a polygon layer of some sort) the wheels are. Knowing that your wheel is on tarmac/kerb/grass does not help understand if you have cut the track?

Presumably it would need to know the co-ordinates of the four corners of each wheel (so 16 co-ordinates all up) and compare their position to the track limits at all times, then decide if 12 or more of those vertices are outside permitted track limits... it starts getting very complex instead of just having 1 reference point being the centre of the car and then giving that one point an allowable limit based on the width of the car itself?

Bealdor
01-02-2018, 07:22
The issue is more that the rules are hard to obey than hard to understand. (Although part of the reason they're hard to obey is that they're incomplete.) The main reason they're hard to obey is what I wrote above. They are tied to an arbitrary reference rather than something concrete.
If you understand the rules then please answer the following questions:
1. What does "more than 50% of the car" mean?
2. Which grasscrete areas are considered kerbs?
3. Why should kerbs be considered part of the track?
4. How is the rule applied on curves?

1. I'm reasonably sure that the game uses the center point of the car when it applies the "50% over kerb" rule.
2. Highly depends on the track. At RBR most grasscrete areas are considered kerbs for example. Real grasscrete is considered part of the kerbs (with a few exceptions), simply green painted tarmac on the outside isn't.
3. This mainly came from pro driver feedback because they were being penalised for using kerbs that were outside the white lines.
4. See 1.

As a general note, I admit that I was very sceptic about this implementation during development wrt not just using the "2 wheels between the white lines at all times" rule but I have to say that IMO it turned out very well and the cut detection works very well and feels natural.


Maybe implementing the white line coupled with a "maximum speed" rule is the answer?
i.e. if we cross the line AND slow down to say, 60kph, we dont get a penalty? That would show the "brain working this stuff out" that yes I did cross the line, but I was driving at a crawl to avoid rear-ending that green Ginetta that always seems to get in trouble at LeMans.

The system already calculates if you gained time or not. The calculation of this was adjusted for patch 3, that's why it became much more strict now, too strict in many situations IMO.
But the good news is that this will be improved with the next patch.



Another thing related to this is that Im not sure pCars2 does know precisely where the 4 wheels of a car is positioned!
Again taken from iceRacing then this "sim" only know where the middle of the car is positioned - not where the wheels is.
So...


Terrain material doesn't equal location though? So unless it is passing the x,y location of each wheel (what part of the wheel does it record co-ordinates for? inside, outside, centre?) then the penalty system module won't know WHERE in relation to the defined track limits (presumable a polygon layer of some sort) the wheels are. Knowing that your wheel is on tarmac/kerb/grass does not help understand if you have cut the track?

Presumably it would need to know the co-ordinates of the four corners of each wheel (so 16 co-ordinates all up) and compare their position to the track limits at all times, then decide if 12 or more of those vertices are outside permitted track limits... it starts getting very complex instead of just having 1 reference point being the centre of the car and then giving that one point an allowable limit based on the width of the car itself?

I was part of the cut track testing group during development. I've seen the track meshes and the sensor points on the cars and I can assure you that the system knows exactly where the inner and outer edges of every single tire are and that they're used to determine if you left the track or not.


On another general note, I think that trying to rely on the center of the car to find the 100% perfect line is kinda the wrong approach.
IMO the cut track system would feel much more natural if they (the players) would actually try to stay on the kerbs with the whole car and accept/see the possibility to accidently drive outside of them with half of their car as additional room that compensates for driving errors without instantly giving you a penalty.
Because otherwise this would lead to a penalty everytime:

249352

BrunoB
01-02-2018, 12:19
So the game does know exactly where each wheel is placed at any time. Really, if this still doesn't persuade you, nothing will I am sure :)
OK fortunately for you you ended this unnessesary sarcastic remark with a lil smiley.
So you are forgiven.:)
Why I call it unnessesary is because I started my postings here by saying:

Yeah it sounds so obvious that the physics engine in games like pCars2 and iceRacing knows this stuff - but at least conserning pCars2 Im not sure.
And eventhough I accept your explanation as there is some "strong" indication of the pCars engine DOES know what is underneath the tires anytime then I still think that only a dev (with insight in the code) can say what is up and down in this case.
But I agree that it sounds like the pCars2 engine know something iceRacings engine dont know:p

A more interresting thing for me is the link you gave to pCars2īs 3rd party API.
I havent seen this description before. So thank you.
So if we could get someone skilled enough to make a 3rd party converter from the APIs output to a fullblown professional telemetry program (like MoteC) then this should at least be theoretical possible.
The reason for my interrest is that one of the reasons both rF2 and iceRacing are considered "real" sims is because they actually output telemetry data that rather easy can be converted to a format some RL telemetry programs can read(and analyze).
Hehe and I have used a lot of time in these 2 sims creating custom MoteC graphics trying to analyze what and why the cars are behaving as they do:cool:
-------------------------
EDIT: I just saw Nates clever remark above. And eventhough his formulation are better than mine then this is exactly Im still hessitant to fully conclude that the pCars2 engine know exactly where the 4 wheels are in relation to track limits.

Terrain material doesn't equal location though? So unless it is passing the x,y location of each wheel (what part of the wheel does it record co-ordinates for? inside, outside, centre?) then the penalty system module won't know WHERE in relation to the defined track limits (presumable a polygon layer of some sort) the wheels are. Knowing that your wheel is on tarmac/kerb/grass does not help understand if you have cut the track?

cpcdem
01-02-2018, 12:35
OK fortunately for you you ended this unnessesary sarcastic remark with a lil smiley.
So you are forgiven.:)


Yeah, it was a light-hearted remark! :)

About the 3rd party API, there are plenty of telemetry apps out there that do things like that. I have even written my own little app that collects the things that I am interested in and it's because I've been working much with it that I do know that the data the game provides matches with what I am seeing on my screen, so I know the game is very aware of what's exactly happening in and out of every wheel.

I can't seem to be able to find a list with the telemetry apps available for PC2, maybe someone else can step in. But you can also have a look at their dedicated sub-forum, you'll find plenty of information about them there: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/forumdisplay.php?151-Third-Party-Apps-amp-API-Discussion

Bealdor
01-02-2018, 12:42
EDIT: I just saw Nates clever remark above. And eventhough his formulation are better than mine then this is exactly Im still hessitant to fully conclude that the pCars2 engine know exactly where the 4 wheels are in relation to track limits.

Apparently you overlooked my response to this. ;)


...I was part of the cut track testing group during development. I've seen the track meshes and the sensor points on the cars and I can assure you that the system knows exactly where the inner and outer edges of every single tire are and that they're used to determine if you left the track or not...

BrunoB
01-02-2018, 12:55
Apparently you overlooked my response to this. ;)
Scheizze you are right:rolleyes:
I was so glad that I saw a post supporting my view that I just copy/pasted it.
But if(I believe you:-) you are right the at least this part of the track limits - penality system can rather easily be solved.

But I still think that the post above (name?) simply combining speed with track limits before penality is pretty straight forward and (again) pretty simple.
Hope the devs also get this idea:)

rich1e I
01-02-2018, 13:36
Scheizze you are right:rolleyes:
I was so glad that I saw a post supporting my view that I just copy/pasted it.
But if(I believe you:-) you are right the at least this part of the track limits - penality system can rather easily be solved.

But I still think that the post above (name?) simply combining speed with track limits before penality is pretty straight forward and (again) pretty simple.
Hope the devs also get this idea:)

This would be a reason for corner cutters and trolls to raise a glass to such a system. Just lift the gas or brake a little bit after you left the track to cut a corner.

Plato99
01-02-2018, 14:50
like as example you are running out of fuel - or if your wife are calling from the bedroom so you want to ESC the game
So...

How many wives have you got? Can they not wait??!!!! :)

Schnizz58
01-02-2018, 15:07
Bealdor, thank you very much for the clarification.


As a general note, I admit that I was very sceptic about this implementation during development wrt not just using the "2 wheels between the white lines at all times" rule but I have to say that IMO it turned out very well and the cut detection works very well and feels natural.
Obviously we have a difference of opinion on this point. It never felt very natural to me right from the start and still doesn't. Right from the beginning I was getting cut track penalties in places that it didn't seem like I should. I'm not perfect so I chalked it up to me making mistakes in a new game with a different feel. But it hasn't really gotten better with more playing time. When I go into a corner, I'm trying to put my inside tires right on the kerb (if there is one) and up against the sausage kerb (if there is one). I'm not really thinking about where the centroid of the car is and where it might be in relation to the track limits. Same thing on corner exit provided that the kerb is not so aggressive that it's going to upset the car. If I cut too much or if I run wide, I can feel the change in surface through the FFB and that gives me the feedback that I need to not make that mistake again. However with this system, I don't get that feedback. I get a message that pops up that tells me I exceeded the limits but it sometimes is delayed so I don't have the instantaneous feedback that tells me exactly where I screwed up. It's much harder to learn the track limits this way in my opinion.


The system already calculates if you gained time or not. The calculation of this was adjusted for patch 3, that's why it became much more strict now, too strict in many situations IMO.
But the good news is that this will be improved with the next patch.
I hope so. As I think I mentioned somewhere previously, I have gotten track limit penalties even when I've come to a complete stop.


I was part of the cut track testing group during development. I've seen the track meshes and the sensor points on the cars and I can assure you that the system knows exactly where the inner and outer edges of every single tire are and that they're used to determine if you left the track or not.
Then it's baffling to me why the center of the car was chosen to be the reference point for track limits.


On another general note, I think that trying to rely on the center of the car to find the 100% perfect line is kinda the wrong approach.
IMO the cut track system would feel much more natural if they (the players) would actually try to stay on the kerbs with the whole car and accept/see the possibility to accidently drive outside of them with half of their car as additional room that compensates for driving errors without instantly giving you a penalty.
Because otherwise this would lead to a penalty everytime:
I know I'm in the minority here (what else is new?) but I feel that it should be a penalty. OK not necessarily a penalty but a violation of track limits. (How that violation is penalized is another matter altogether.) To me the limits are the limits and once you start making exceptions to them, you end up creating gray areas in the rules and they become harder to enforce.

Again, thanks so much for chiming in. Your input here is very valuable.

Bealdor
01-02-2018, 16:27
Then it's baffling to me why the center of the car was chosen to be the reference point for track limits.

The center of the car is only used for cut detection on kerbs, otherwise the wheels are.
It's a compromise because 2 wheels inside the white lines was considered too strict and 2 wheels on the kerbs too forgiving.


I know I'm in the minority here (what else is new?) but I feel that it should be a penalty. OK not necessarily a penalty but a violation of track limits. (How that violation is penalized is another matter altogether.) To me the limits are the limits and once you start making exceptions to them, you end up creating gray areas in the rules and they become harder to enforce.

But real life racing series are constantly making exceptions to their track limit rules. If they would always enforce their strict two wheels inside white lines rule, races would be terribly boring.
Btw. kerbs are meant to be driven on, otherwise they wouldn't be there. And some kerbs are wider than the whole car...

BrunoB
01-02-2018, 16:57
This would be a reason for corner cutters and trolls to raise a glass to such a system. Just lift the gas or brake a little bit after you left the track to cut a corner.
Ah come on man. You are not serious here. The way to circumvent this kind of cutting is pretty simple.
If you dont bring the car down low enough in speed you get full penality for crossing the limit.
Thats it.
And if people is moaning then its because they intentionally are trying to get an advantage.

Remember my good man - there are some people who allways does try very hard to find a single hair in the soup.
Often they get thrown out of the waiter:p

Bealdor
01-02-2018, 16:59
Ah come on man. You are not serious here. The way to circumvent this kind of cutting is pretty simple.
If you dont bring the car down low enough in speed you get full penality for crossing the limit.
Thats it.
And if people is moaning then its because they intentionally are trying to get an advantage.

Remember my good man - there are some people who allways does try very hard to find a single hair in the soup.
Often they get thrown out of the waiter:p

The system is already doing this. It detects if you gained time or not.

BrunoB
01-02-2018, 17:02
How many wives have you got? Can they not wait??!!!! :)
Hahaha good one.
No I did just chose this one instead of having to ESCing out of the game because the dog insisted to have a walk - NOW.:p

BrunoB
01-02-2018, 17:06
The system is already doing this. It detects if you gained time or not.
Yeah I can see that on some of the other remarks. But then its just an (even more) simple solution to adjust the speed limit to precisely get the "criminals" and let the nice and good behaving drivers go.:p

BrunoB
01-02-2018, 17:18
The center of the car is only used for cut detection on kerbs, otherwise the wheels are.
It's a compromise because 2 wheels inside the white lines was considered too strict and 2 wheels on the kerbs too forgiving.
OK thats complete new info for me.
Because then this track limit sensoring is more advanced that I thought.

Note: I have reconsidered the lowering speed to not get a penality rule to 2 rules.
1. You dont get a penality if you before you cross the limit has lowered the speed.
2. You dont get a penality if you after you cross the limit lower the speed for so long time that the game decide that you have lost more than you gained(somewhat like iceRacings penality counter).

Note2: Should I make a poll of how many think this is a clever solution?:rolleyes:

cpcdem
01-02-2018, 17:20
And if people is moaning then its because they intentionally are trying to get an advantage.


Well, personally I am moaning because I love close and fierce wheel to wheel fights with other people, and sometimes during such fights I or somebody else might happen to go 10 cm wider that what is legal, and, instead of being it enough to lift for a brief moment to give the 0.05 sec I gained back, I currently need to lift for an eternity. And this ruins the fights and/or races.

I assure you, I am more or less a good person, please don't be so punishing! As for hair in the soup, usually I simply remove it without telling anybody about it! :)

MaximusN
01-02-2018, 17:37
And if people is moaning then its because they intentionally are trying to get an advantage.

Erm, are you trying to have a civil conversation or looking for a fight, because the best way to start one is to accuse people of something they are sure they are not guilty of. ;)

BrunoB
01-02-2018, 17:49
Well, personally I am moaning because I love close and fierce wheel to wheel fights with other people, and sometimes during such fights I or somebody else might happen to go 10 cm wider that what is legal, and, instead of being it enough to lift for a brief moment to give the 0.05 sec I gained back, I currently need to lift for an eternity. And this ruins the fights and/or races.

I assure you, I am more or less a good person, please don't be so punishing! As for hair in the soup, usually I simply remove it without telling anybody about it! :)
First take that hair in soup part as a joke. I just thought it was a funny analogy:p
And believe me Im not the slightest punishing like.
The reason I used the word moaning is because I really want 1 (or 2) rules that without human intervention(!) like report this accident to some human steward - instead I really think we could have something here (as example succesfull coding of my 2 rules above) + a sensible speed limit - and now comes my point of using "moaning":
If such a rule was working good (good the man said:-)) then if some drivers after a penality tried to make some discussion about precisely the fairness in their personal penality - then we could call it MOANING because the rule had be seen working good.

And yes you cant satisfy everybody. But if such a thing was functioning fair for the majority then it doesnt matter if someone once in a while feels sooo unfair treated.
OK?:)

MaximusN
01-02-2018, 17:52
And yes you cant satisfy everybody. But if such a thing was functioning fair for the majority then it doesnt matter if someone once in a while feels sooo unfair treated.
OK?:)
Someone, once, you are really funny. :) I bet it's one of the reasons there are hardly any players left. So the hardliners could be the majority now. That doesn't say they are right(or the overall majority for that matter).

rich1e I
01-02-2018, 18:00
Someone, once, you are really funny. :) I bet it's one of the reasons there are hardly any players left. So the hardliners could be the majority now. That doesn't say they are right(or the overall majority for that matter).

Hardliners? I see you keep stepping up your 'rhetoric war.' If you call those who are fine with a strict penalty system 'hardliners', it should be fine to call all the complainers track limit extremists :p :p :p

Matt York
01-02-2018, 18:01
Ok, there seems to be some confusion around the track limits system and how it works, so hopefully this post will help clarify some things.

The system works to follow 2 rules when it comes to defining the limits of the track:
1) At least 1 wheel within or ON the white lines (or yellow, or red, or whatever colour line the track uses).
2) At least 50% of the car (the cars centre across its width) is over a valid legal surface.
Valid legal surfaces include: the first layer of curbing, and grasscrete. It does NOT include: the second layer of curbing (usually larger, raised section of curbs or sausage curbing), additional or painted concrete, fake grass, AstroTurf, grass, dirt or gravel.

If rule 1 is broken, it then checks rule 2 to define whether you have exceeded track limits. So..
- If rule 1 is broken and you go all 4 wheels over the white lines, and there is no valid legal surface, you're exceeding track limits.
- If rule 1 is broken and you go all 4 wheels over the white lines, and there is a valid legal surface, and you have less than 50% of the car beyond the edge of the legal surface (i.e. the cars centre line is above the curbing or grasscrete), you are deemed within track limits still.
- If rule 1 is broken and you go all 4 wheels over the white lines, and there is a valid legal surface, but you have more than 50% of the car (the centre line of the car) beyond that legal surface, you're exceeding track limits.

Now, when you are detected as exceeding the track limits, the system calculates whether you have gained an advantage in the process of breaching track limits:
- If an advantage is NOT detected, you will NOT be issued with a slow down warning and can continue along your merry way.
- If an advantage is detected, you will be issued with a slow down warning, and must slow down to clear the amount of time you were deemed to have gained.

So with the above in mind, the best way to approach track limits and avoid getting slow down warnings where possible, is with the aim to keep at least 1 (ideally 2) wheels within the white lines at all times. If you exceed those, in some corners where there is large curbing or grasscrete, you may have that as an 'extra cushion' to fall back on before getting hit with a slow down warning. Majority of the time though with most tracks and most corners, if you're all 4 wheels over the white lines, you're going to be right at the limits with the curbing too. It's only in some corners where curbs are larger or there is grasscrete beyond the curbs where you have extra room beyond the white lines to fall back on. Likewise on some other tracks like Laguna Seca, the curbs might be so narrow that the moment you go all 4 wheels over the white line you have way more than 50% of the car over the legal surface, and if you gain an advantage, you're going to get a slow down.

Hope the above helps to clarify things for people :)

Martin03
01-02-2018, 18:11
''- If an advantage is NOT detected, you will NOT be issued with a slow down warning and can continue along your merry way.''

That is the part that is not really working for me, speccialy in RX, I just turned off penalty system in the end. You go wide, so you drift on the grass, on the outside of the track, and loses 3places and several sec, ''slow down to avoid a penalty'' and I though im not slowing down when I lost 3places, why should I slow down? Aaaand, 2sec penalty

-carbo-
01-02-2018, 18:37
I do not so much have a problem on how the system is implemented (except eg T1 at Monaco) but more with the way the punishment does not match the crime. As well as being over critical it impossible to tell how much time you need to give back.

rich1e I
01-02-2018, 18:51
I think the problem is that people feel the system does not calculate the amount of time gained correctly. Maybe it's just a matter of perception, I don't know, but I think most people don't serve the penalty immediately which could lead to an increased amount of time gained, hence the slow down message stays there and in a battle situation one second can be like an eternity, so the perception is that the penalty system is too strict because you have to give back an eternity for a 0.05 seconds advantage.

Schnizz58
01-02-2018, 18:51
The center of the car is only used for cut detection on kerbs, otherwise the wheels are.
It's a compromise because 2 wheels inside the white lines was considered too strict and 2 wheels on the kerbs too forgiving.
Right but where are the kerbs located? Mostly on curves. Where are you likely to exceed track limits? Mostly on curves.

Two wheels inside the lines allows nearly all of the car to be off the track so I just can't see how that rule is too restrictive.


But real life racing series are constantly making exceptions to their track limit rules. If they would always enforce their strict two wheels inside white lines rule, races would be terribly boring.
Btw. kerbs are meant to be driven on, otherwise they wouldn't be there. And some kerbs are wider than the whole car...
Yes they are and many times it opens up a can of worms*. It's a slippery slope once you start to say that the limits aren't really the limits. If you want to make the track wider, lay some asphalt or repaint the stripes.

Again, the 2 wheels rule allows probably 80% of the car to be outside the track limits. That seems more than generous.

*Zymurgy's Law of Evolving Systems Dynamics states that once you open a can of worms, the only way to get them back in the can is to use a larger can.

ETA: Thanks Yorkie for the explanation.

BrunoB
01-02-2018, 19:04
I do not so much have a problem on how the system is implemented (except eg T1 at Monaco) but more with the way the punishment does not match the crime. As well as being over critical it impossible to tell how much time you need to give back.
Without boring people too much with how iceRacing is handling this "how much time left" issue then when you get such "gaining advantage" penality a counter is blended in on top of the screen telling you how much time you have left to give up.
It works ok but most people agree the the penality (time) is allways to high.
So they moan all the time.:eek:

bmanic
01-02-2018, 20:41
Now, when you are detected as exceeding the track limits, the system calculates whether you have gained an advantage in the process of breaching track limits:
- If an advantage is NOT detected, you will NOT be issued with a slow down warning and can continue along your merry way.
- If an advantage is detected, you will be issued with a slow down warning, and must slow down to clear the amount of time you were deemed to have gained.

That part is bugged by the way.. badly bugged. Most of the time a tiny gain of a few tenths of a second leads to a slow down penalty of 3 to 4 seconds.. I've even had to slow down to crawl, losing almost 10 seconds before the message disappeared. Sometimes there was clearly a LOSS of time (due to losing control of car) yet a massive slow down penalty must be served.

I really do hope it's been noted internally and fixed. It all looks awesome on paper but the trick is to get it working. It was working really close to perfect before patch 3.

cpcdem
01-02-2018, 20:42
First take that hair in soup part as a joke. I just thought it was a funny analogy:p


I know and I liked it, that's why I also included a smiley in my response. It's hard to read sentiment in text, but yeah, I just tried to continue the joke. The "moaning" part indeed I did not really like it, but I don't take that too seriously either! Only way to really make me upset with you is if you say something bad about my (in game) 488! :)

cpcdem
01-02-2018, 20:46
That part is bugged by the way.. badly bugged. Most of the time a tiny gain of a few tenths of a second leads to a slow down penalty of 3 to 4 seconds.. I've even had to slow down to crawl, losing almost 10 seconds before the message disappeared. Sometimes there was clearly a LOSS of time (due to losing control of car) yet a massive slow down penalty must be served.


Yeah, I think this is practically the only and very big problem. I speculate that if this is fixed (slowdown required becomes reasonable), then nobody will be complaining anymore about track limits etc, because they will not matter any more.

Schnizz58
01-02-2018, 20:54
Yeah, I think this is practically the only and very big problem. I speculate that if this is fixed (slowdown required becomes reasonable), then nobody will be complaining anymore about track limits etc, because they will not matter any more.

I'll forever believe that they're not right but they're unlikely to change so I agree that there's no point in griping about them. Further if the penalties are made more lenient, the limits themselves won't be as big of a problem.

MaximusN
01-02-2018, 21:35
Hardliners? I see you keep stepping up your 'rhetoric war.' If you call those who are fine with a strict penalty system 'hardliners', it should be fine to call all the complainers track limit extremists :p :p :p

Fine with being called that. I'm pretty fed up with certain individuals saying people(that complain about penalties) are purposely trying to gain time when all they are doing is driving on the limit(that is the definition of racing). If you do you WILL go over ,if you don't you're a driving miss daisy.

BTW, come race me and you'll see I drive fair(to the point I disadvantage myself) and within the lines.

Not saying people who bend the rules don't exist, but generalizing all people into that group will get you flak. :)

Anyway, I'll be fine with it if it's toned down to my liking. I'm not against it, but absolutely not fine with how it awards punishment now.

rich1e I
01-02-2018, 23:40
Fine with being called that. I'm pretty fed up with certain individuals saying people(that complain about penalties) are purposely trying to gain time when all they are doing is driving on the limit(that is the definition of racing). If you do you WILL go over ,if you don't you're a driving miss daisy.

BTW, come race me and you'll see I drive fair(to the point I disadvantage myself) and within the lines.

Not saying people who bend the rules don't exist, but generalizing all people into that group will get you flak. :)

Anyway, I'll be fine with it if it's toned down to my liking. I'm not against it, but absolutely not fine with how it awards punishment now.

Well, there's no need to be upset then because I haven't generalized. There's no reason for me to believe that you are one of those who just don't care about track limits, just like that e-sports guy, so I don't understand why you mention this. Maybe it's because we're not native english speaker and written words can be misunderstood. I never meant to offend someone or generalize anything.

Shogun613
01-02-2018, 23:57
The system works to follow 2 rules when it comes to defining the limits of the track:
1) At least 1 wheel within or ON the white lines (or yellow, or red, or whatever colour line the track uses).
2) At least 50% of the car (the cars centre across its width) is over a valid legal surface.
Valid legal surfaces include: the first layer of curbing, and grasscrete. It does NOT include: the second layer of curbing (usually larger, raised section of curbs or sausage curbing), additional or painted concrete, fake grass, AstroTurf, grass, dirt or gravel.

If rule 1 is broken, it then checks rule 2 to define whether you have exceeded track limits. So..
- If rule 1 is broken and you go all 4 wheels over the white lines, and there is no valid legal surface, you're exceeding track limits.
- If rule 1 is broken and you go all 4 wheels over the white lines, and there is a valid legal surface, and you have less than 50% of the car beyond the edge of the legal surface (i.e. the cars centre line is above the curbing or grasscrete), you are deemed within track limits still.
- If rule 1 is broken and you go all 4 wheels over the white lines, and there is a valid legal surface, but you have more than 50% of the car (the centre line of the car) beyond that legal surface, you're exceeding track limits.



Ok, so regarding those guidelines, where do Graham Hill Bend and Westfield at Brands fit in? There are pretty good amounts of grasscrete in those two places, yet it's pretty strict.
Also, at Red Bull Ring - in places like the exits of corners 1,2 and the last two corners have dark green painted concrete where you can go 4 off with no penalty.
Are those instances track specific exceptions to the rule?

bmanic
02-02-2018, 04:52
Shogun, at Brands Hatch in real life they have pressure plates all over the place to enforce strict track limits, even on track days for the public. So yeah.. strict limits for British tracks isn't just a pCars thing.

The only real "fixing" that needs to be done is the slow down penalty. It really is as simple as that. That's the part that is broken most of the time, not the actual limits detection. Those track limits actually seem extremely realistic on most tracks, at least from a club racer / track day point of view. The only confusion is added when watching huge events like Lemans 24h or Formula 1 on TV when they allow ridiculous amounts of cutting. That's not the norm though as far as I know.

Shogun613
02-02-2018, 05:17
^Ok, thank you. I was always wondering about Brands Hatch because I've seen Blancpain cars go 4 off at Graham Hill Bend in the past. It's hard to get it right and keep good momentum while keeping the exit nice and tight.

wesker6664
02-02-2018, 07:33
- If an advantage is detected, you will be issued with a slow down warning, and must slow down to clear the amount of time you were deemed to have gained.

Thanks for the detailed informations Matt :encouragement:

About the quote above and like bmanic said a few posts before, then it's severily bugging ingame, as normally when slightly exceeding track limits a simple lift for a few tenths should be more than enough to cancel the penalty. With all due respect to the team, such annoyances should be patched in a matter of days, not months...

MaximusN
02-02-2018, 08:18
Well, there's no need to be upset then because I haven't generalized. There's no reason for me to believe that you are one of those who just don't care about track limits, just like that e-sports guy, so I don't understand why you mention this. Maybe it's because we're not native english speaker and written words can be misunderstood. I never meant to offend someone or generalize anything.
I wasn't reacting to you in the first place. :) Look I'll say again that I don't want people cutting corners either, but saying everyone who gets caught by the system(in it's current state) and feels he is being treated unfairly is basically a criminal trying to get the crime legalized is just not a valid or fair representation of facts. I've seen some pretty seasoned simracers on Youtube asking themselves what the sim was thinking when handing out penalties.

I (and I'm sure am not alone) treat track limits like a wall(do NOT go there), but there is a reason there is a wall of champions on Canada.

Matt York
02-02-2018, 08:34
Thanks for the detailed informations Matt :encouragement:

About the quote above and like bmanic said a few posts before, then it's severily bugging ingame, as normally when slightly exceeding track limits a simple lift for a few tenths should be more than enough to cancel the penalty. With all due respect to the team, such annoyances should be patched in a matter of days, not months...


That part is bugged by the way.. badly bugged. Most of the time a tiny gain of a few tenths of a second leads to a slow down penalty of 3 to 4 seconds.. I've even had to slow down to crawl, losing almost 10 seconds before the message disappeared. Sometimes there was clearly a LOSS of time (due to losing control of car) yet a massive slow down penalty must be served.

I really do hope it's been noted internally and fixed. It all looks awesome on paper but the trick is to get it working. It was working really close to perfect before patch 3.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58119-Race-Line-Penalties-Track-Limit&p=1447349&viewfull=1#post1447349

As our mighty lord Wookie has said himself already; that part of the system has been improved for the next patch, so determining of whether that moment exceeding track limits did actually gain an advantage, the amount of advantage gained and the ease at which time is given back have been improved.

Sessionerror
02-02-2018, 09:28
Those huge penalties of more than 30 seconds for rather small cuts are a bug though, right? Have you found the cause for that or should we report the situations/tracks/corners of those occurrences (I remember those were reported during development)?

bmanic
02-02-2018, 10:24
I think those huge penalties are very difficult to track down though.. it usually involved crashing out or spinning on the grass.. then when you re-entered the track you got a massive penalty. Sometimes you even got the message to give back a position even though all the AI had driven past you.

I haven't had these happen at all in the release version but then again I've not been crashing out on purpose to try to find any such bugs.

@Matt: It should be very easy to test if the system works. Just cut a corner a tiny bit, for instance Donington has several corners where you can cut them and not really gain any advantage (a few tenths at the most).

Sessionerror
02-02-2018, 10:29
I think those huge penalties are very difficult to track down though.. it usually involved crashing out or spinning on the grass.. then when you re-entered the track you got a massive penalty. Sometimes you even got the message to give back a position even though all the AI had driven past you.


We have those quite often in RX races but without crashing or spinning. Only cutting ;)

cpcdem
02-02-2018, 10:52
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58119-Race-Line-Penalties-Track-Limit&p=1447349&viewfull=1#post1447349

As our mighty lord Wookie has said himself already; that part of the system has been improved for the next patch, so determining of whether that moment exceeding track limits did actually gain an advantage, the amount of advantage gained and the ease at which time is given back have been improved.

Thank you to all involved for this, but then again I think it's the anxiety that kills us, if that will be good enough. It's been more than one and a half month since this update was announced, but in the mean time we still have to deal with the current state every day (edit:in online races I mean). It's not like the setup bugs which appear from time to time, this is something to deal with in every race, multiple times per race! Just hoping it is reasonable enough now.

BrunoB
02-02-2018, 11:39
.. determining of whether that moment exceeding track limits did actually gain an advantage, the amount of advantage gained and the ease at which time is given back have been improved.
If we sidestep the actual sensoring of cutting track limits for the moment then the other part of the problem the penality time added vs the actual advantage(time gained) then this issue will never(!) be silenced - before people actually can compare the 2 time spans!

The reason is the lot of psychology involved like: WTF!!! I did only cut slightly and now I have to wait an eternity before Im allowed to race on - this fu**ng game sucks!

But the situation would be more or less completely changed if as soon the track was cutted a warning line popped up in top of screen saying:
Gain: 3sec - PenalityLeft: 6sec
And the last value was counting down.

Because then people could instantly compare the cause(gain) and solution(penality) - and the only leftover to some psychology complaining would be focussed on if the Gain was fair calculated.
But another sim which name I will not mention allready calculate the gained time by accessing this drivers "normal" time on the sector involved.
Triviality: Its not calculating this sector "normal" that is the problem - its the psychology activated when you never know how long the eternity is.:cool:

MaximusN
02-02-2018, 12:01
If we sidestep the actual sensoring of cutting track limits for the moment then the other part of the problem the penality time added vs the actual advantage(time gained) then this issue will never(!) be silenced - before people actually can compare the 2 time spans!

The reason is the lot of psychology involved like: WTF!!! I did only cut slightly and now I have to wait an eternity before Im allowed to race on - this fu**ng game sucks!

But the situation would be more or less completely changed if as soon the track was cutted a warning line popped up in top of screen saying:
Gain: 3sec - PenalityLeft: 6sec
And the last value was counting down.

Because then people could instantly compare the cause(gain) and solution(penality) - and the only leftover to some psychology complaining would be focussed on if the Gain was fair calculated.
But another sim which name I will not mention allready calculate the gained time by accessing this drivers "normal" time on the sector involved.
Triviality: Its not calculating this sector "normal" that is the problem - its the psychology activated when you never know how long the eternity is.:cool:
If we're talking about psychology.

I'd like the system to be a gain-mitigator, not a punishment system(unless you do it multiple times of course). And I tend to not agree with people pushing for the latter. ;) I get where you're coming form but racing should never be about that IMHO. It's a gaming mechanic IMHO.

MABlosfeld
02-02-2018, 12:15
I found the solution: the host must be the judge himself to supervise the race.:)

rich1e I
02-02-2018, 12:59
I wasn't reacting to you in the first place. :) Look I'll say again that I don't want people cutting corners either, but saying everyone who gets caught by the system(in it's current state) and feels he is being treated unfairly is basically a criminal trying to get the crime legalized is just not a valid or fair representation of facts. I've seen some pretty seasoned simracers on Youtube asking themselves what the sim was thinking when handing out penalties.

I (and I'm sure am not alone) treat track limits like a wall(do NOT go there), but there is a reason there is a wall of champions on Canada.


The problem is, I've seen people saying that you get slow downs for nothing and that's just fairy tales or misjudgement. If we want to have a constructive discussion we must keep it honest. You don't get slow downs for being half a tyre width off track. That's nonsense. People need to watch replays. It's happened to me too in private testing that I thought 2 wheels must've been on track after my lap was invalidated. Then the replay showed I was MILES off track.

I think the slow down penalty problem is that many people keep going after the message pops up, that's probably why it took more time to serve the penalty, so if the system detected an advantage of lets say 0.1 seconds and gives you a slow down, that advantage increases the more you keep driving. So, if you see the message pop up and start swearing while you keep going for 3, 4, 5 seconds and by the time you accept the slow down penalty and slow the car down 5, 6, 7 seconds may have gone by so that 0.1 becomes a 5/6/7.1 seconds. That's my thesis.
I just can't confirm that you have to stop your car in the middle of the track for a 0.1 gain because I've served my penalties immediately, and I can assure you the message disappears after just a few moments.

pferreirag60
02-02-2018, 13:28
The problem to everyone, i think, is that we are sure that our little offline excursion(talking about curbs or corner exit) donīt gave as an advantage quiet the opposite, it made us lose time, and iīm quiet sure that is what happens almost 99% of the time to the drivers that try to drive always on the limit of the track, but sometimes, as many have said on a battle or just pursuing a driver or even to avoid an accident, you go offline, and we feel injustice by receiving an penalty. Even so because the mechanism to communicate the time penalty is too obscure, we never now how much time we received, just slow down...but to slow down, for example from 200km to 80 or 120, takes some times, and we can have drivers just at your back...

MaximusN
02-02-2018, 13:55
The problem is, I've seen people saying that you get slow downs for nothing and that's just fairy tales or misjudgement. If we want to have a constructive discussion we must keep it honest. You don't get slow downs for being half a tyre width off track. That's nonsense. People need to watch replays. It's happened to me too in private testing that I thought 2 wheels must've been on track after my lap was invalidated. Then the replay showed I was MILES off track.

I think the slow down penalty problem is that many people keep going after the message pops up, that's probably why it took more time to serve the penalty, so if the system detected an advantage of lets say 0.1 seconds and gives you a slow down, that advantage increases the more you keep driving. So, if you see the message pop up and start swearing while you keep going for 3, 4, 5 seconds and by the time you accept the slow down penalty and slow the car down 5, 6, 7 seconds may have gone by so that 0.1 becomes a 5/6/7.1 seconds. That's my thesis.
I just can't confirm that you have to stop your car in the middle of the track for a 0.1 gain because I've served my penalties immediately, and I can assure you the message disappears after just a few moments.
I also serve my penalties immediately. And I never said I get a slowdown for nothing, I DO get slowdowns when losing time already. If that never happened to you you weren't going fast when you took the corner legally. ;)

Over 40 now, been simracing since F1GP, I know how it works by now.

rich1e I
02-02-2018, 14:37
I also serve my penalties immediately. And I never said I get a slowdown for nothing, I DO get slowdowns when losing time already. If that never happened to you you weren't going fast when you took the corner legally. ;)

Over 40 now, been simracing since F1GP, I know how it works by now.

I really don't know why you think I'm referring to you when I say something. Happened multiple times now.
I also get slowdowns but I'm not sure if I'm losing time. Usually you run wide if you create new apexes by getting on the gas earlier. I think another problem with the penalty system is the transparency. Would be nice if SMS explained more how things work, what the system does and how it calculates things. That would help drivers a lot even if they (SMS) keep it superficial.
And yeah, my boring driving must be the reason why I have no trouble with the race director ;-)

MaximusN
02-02-2018, 14:49
I really don't know why you think I'm referring to you when I say something. Happened multiple times now.

Because your exaggerating multiple times now. You don't have to be miles off and gain tenths of seconds to get seconds worth of loss in penalty slowdown(even when served immediately).

There is a reason the system is being reworked again...

Plato99
02-02-2018, 15:55
The system is already doing this. It detects if you gained time or not.

It's not doing it very well, sorry.
Massive pileup ahead, track blocked. minor detour to avoid being a racing statistic, penalized. I know its hard to program this stuff, but if the system knows there is a crash, it should know those in the immediate vicinity are making detours to avoid adding to the problem.

cpcdem
02-02-2018, 16:14
The problem is, I've seen people saying that you get slow downs for nothing and that's just fairy tales or misjudgement. If we want to have a constructive discussion we must keep it honest. You don't get slow downs for being half a tyre width off track. That's nonsense. People need to watch replays.

I cannot understand why you keep saying this, while it has been proven over and over again with so many videos that it does happen all the time (but I agree there are also cases of false accusations). This is a pic of the rear mirror from the video discussed in http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?60049-Why-do-I-have-to-give-the-position-back&p=1461460&viewfull=1#post1461460 showing me cutting the track in Zolder:

249491

How much is this off the white lines, 30 cm /1 foot or less? As discussed in that thread, at the end of the next straight this had given me at max a 0.2 sec advantage, although most likely it was a lot less than that, because I also had the slipstream that helped me get 0.2 closer to the car ahead (which of course I then lost again at the brakes for the next corner) than I was before the turn. Well, for that outrageous, disgraceful cut of mine of 30cm which happened in the heat of the battle, the game asked me to slow down giving a 2 seconds comfortable lead to the car ahead, ruining the battle.

And if you argue that I had to slow down that much because I didn't serve the slowdown instantly, well a couple laps later the guy in front did the same extremely small cut, slowed down immediately and again had to slow down for an eternity, allowing me to catch him again. It's in the video.

MABlosfeld
02-02-2018, 16:42
written by Bram Hengeveld : "For online play i don't mind kerbs being twice as high to be honest" ;)
http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/inside-kerbs-gentlemen-agreement.87996/

edit: I think the effects generated by the edges, gravel, sidewalk, kerb are weak.

rich1e I
02-02-2018, 17:06
I cannot understand why you keep saying this, while it has been proven over and over again with so many videos that it does happen all the time (but I agree there are also cases of false accusations). This is a pic of the rear mirror from the video discussed in http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?60049-Why-do-I-have-to-give-the-position-back&p=1461460&viewfull=1#post1461460 showing me cutting the track in Zolder:

How much is this off the white lines, 30 cm /1 foot or less? As discussed in that thread, at the end of the next straight this had given me at max a 0.2 sec advantage, although most likely it was a lot less than that, because I also had the slipstream that helped me get 0.2 closer to the car ahead (which of course I then lost again at the brakes for the next corner) than I was before the turn. Well, for that outrageous, disgraceful cut of mine of 30cm which happened in the heat of the battle, the game asked me to slow down giving a 2 seconds comfortable lead to the car ahead, ruining the battle.

And if you argue that I had to slow down that much because I didn't serve the slowdown instantly, well a couple laps later the guy in front did the same extremely small cut, slowed down immediately and again had to slow down for an eternity, allowing me to catch him again. It's in the video.

Ok my bad. I understand what you mean. What I meant was 'with half a tyre off track'. 'Half a tyre width' is a quote from the e-sports guy I was talking about earlier. I misunderstood this. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if you're light years off track or just 0.001 cm. Sorry for the misunderstanding, but my statement is still correct though: you don't get slowdowns for nothing.
What I was saying earlier with serving the penalty was just a thesis because I haven't experienced the eternity slowdown. Could also be a bug that the message does not go away. I have no idea. Next patch should be around the corner. Let's see what the changes are after it went live.

cpcdem
02-02-2018, 17:23
Ok my bad. I understand what you mean. What I meant was 'with half a tyre off track'. 'Half a tyre width' is a quote from the e-sports guy I was talking earlier. I misunderstood this. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if you're light years off track or just 0.001 cm. Sorry for the misunderstanding, but my statement is still correct though: you don't get slowdowns for nothing.
What I was saying earlier with serving the penalty was just a thesis because I haven't experienced the eternity slowdown. Could also be a bug that the message does not go away. I have no idea. Next patch should be around the corner. Let's see what the changes are after it went live.

OK, thanks for your reply. But it really should matter if you're light years off track or just 0.001 cm, in the first case you should get a severe punishment (if you gained time and not just went into the gravel), while in the second case you should not get a punishment at all, or just a tiny one (lift off for a moment).

Also by the world "eternity" I don't mean you need to slow down for a minute or somehing, but when you are in close battle with 3-4 cars, giving away 2 seconds for a 30cm cut feels like an eternity as it means all the others overtake you and your race is ruined. And in many cases it's much more than 2 seconds..

Schnizz58
02-02-2018, 18:15
OK, thanks for your reply. But it really should matter if you're light years off track or just 0.001 cm, in the first case you should get a severe punishment (if you gained time and not just went into the gravel), while in the second case you should not get a punishment at all, or just a tiny one (lift off for a moment).
Don't you think it should be based on how much time you gained by the cut, not how far off you were? (Although there could be a correlation there. The further off you go, the more time you gain in some cases?)

MaximusN
02-02-2018, 18:31
I think time should be the thing to watch for here. You can go miles off because you lost the car, but if you lose 2 seconds in the process(and rejoin safely) why would you even want to give a penalty?

If anything, you could deduct(miles off) from the safetyrating. Although I find that a gray area, because the system doesn't take avoiding accidents and spun cars into account.

cpcdem
02-02-2018, 18:39
Don't you think it should be based on how much time you gained by the cut, not how far off you were? (Although there could be a correlation there. The further off you go, the more time you gain in some cases?)

Yes, of course! This is how it is supposed to be working already, but I guess the calculations have gone horribly wrong and you currently need to give 2 seconds back for a gain of 0.1 second, or even worse for cases that you go wide, slow down because of that but still get a slowdown warning.

Or it could be currently coded like the minimum give back time for any cut is 2 seconds, no matter if you lost time or gained a couple tenths. For a cut that gained you 0.5 sec, you may need to give back 4 secs and for bigger cuts, you need to give back some other larger number of seconds. Obviously that's pure speculation and the numbers are off my mind, but that's how the system looks like it's currently working to me.

Anyway, already several devs/mods have told us that the calculations have been adjusted for the next patch, I am just hoping they have been adjusted well enough to allow proper racing and fighting.

Schnizz58
02-02-2018, 18:43
Agreed. I'm guessing that's a very difficult calculation to make. How can the game know where you would have been if you had not cut the track?

rich1e I
02-02-2018, 19:28
And if you argue that I had to slow down that much because I didn't serve the slowdown instantly, well a couple laps later the guy in front did the same extremely small cut, slowed down immediately and again had to slow down for an eternity, allowing me to catch him again. It's in the video.

I just watched the part where he gets the penalty. It's exactly the same spot where you got the penalty earlier and it's not correct that he lifted immediately. He kept going 4 or 5 seconds before he slowed down, so yeah, I still think the system adds every second you wait to serve the penalty to the initial gain, or are you referring to another situation in the video?

cpcdem
02-02-2018, 19:45
I just watched the part where he gets the penalty. It's exactly the same spot where you got the penalty earlier and it's not correct that he lifted immediately. He kept going 4 or 5 seconds before he slowed down, so yeah, I still think the system adds every second you wait to serve the penalty to the initial gain, or are you referring to another situation in the video?

Ah, right! Sorry, I had the impression it was instant, but you're right it took him around 4 seconds to slow down. Hopefully this is indeed the main problem after all, that the game currently adds much slowdown time as time passes very quickly, because adjusting this will be a lot easier than improving the time gained detection mechanism.

bmanic
03-02-2018, 02:22
.. if that is the case, that the game adds every second until you slow down, then that's a pretty silly system and explains why it suddenly became so wonky/broken after patch 3. Especially considering that the 'Slow Down' warning does not appear immediately but after quite a delay (up to 10 seconds later). This would explain almost everything wrong about the system and why it feels so broken after patch 3.

cpcdem
03-02-2018, 11:59
.. if that is the case, that the game adds every second until you slow down, then that's a pretty silly system and explains why it suddenly became so wonky/broken after patch 3. Especially considering that the 'Slow Down' warning does not appear immediately but after quite a delay (up to 10 seconds later). This would explain almost everything wrong about the system and why it feels so broken after patch 3.

Yeah, but that's just pure speculation from our part. Possibly it's a combined problem of adding much more time as time goes by, in addition to the initial calculation of time gained if any by a cut being very wrong already in the first place. Let's see what patch 4 brings.

GOAT Vettel
03-02-2018, 22:38
As much as I hate to say it this game should have an incident system like Iracing as this would solve the Track limits and collisions where say across the whole race you can't rack up more than 17 incidents, and collisions and track limits equal a different number of incidents.

MaximusN
03-02-2018, 22:53
As much as I hate to say it this game should have an incident system like Iracing as this would solve the Track limits and collisions where say across the whole race you can't rack up more than 17 incidents, and collisions and track limits equal a different number of incidents.
I hated the iRacing system back in the day(and after 2 years haven't ever renewed) but would definitely prefer it to what we have now(after patch 2).

But I'll wait and see what patch 4 brings. :)