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h4rdy
05-02-2018, 15:14
Hello,

I've been wondering what rules apply in overtaking? When do you have to give an opponent space and when not? Are there any tutorials online for it?
I want to make sure I act better in the race as I am often not sure if I have the right of way in a turn or not when it gets close.

Thx!

Mahjik
05-02-2018, 15:19
Every organization will have their own rules around overtaking. However, most of them will have similarities. Here are some pieces from the NASA rulebook:

https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/document/document/282/2018.2.pdf



25.4 Rules for Overtaking

25.4.1 Passing General
The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the overtaking driver. The
overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed and must not impede the pass by blocking. A
driver who does not watch his/her mirrors or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass may be
penalized. The act of passing is initiated when the trailing car’s (Car A) front bumper overlaps with the lead
car’s (Car B) rear bumper. The act of passing is complete when Car A’s rear bumper is ahead of Car B’s front
bumper. “NO PASSING” means a pass cannot even be initiated. Any overlap in a NO PASSING area is
considered illegal.

25.4.2 Punting / Passing in Corners
The term “punting” is defined as nose to tail (or side-of-the-nose to side-of-the-tail) contact, where the leading
car is significantly knocked off of the racing line. Once the trailing car has its front wheel next to the driver of the
other vehicle, it is considered that the trailing car has a right to be there. And, that the leading driver must leave
the trailing driver enough “racing room.” In most cases, “racing room” is defined as “at least three quarters of
one car width.” If adequate racing room is left for the trailing car, and there is incidental contact made between
the cars, the contact will be considered “side-to-side.” In most cases, incidental side-to-side contact is
considered to be “just a racing incident.” If, in the case of side-to-side contact, one of the two cars leaves the
racing surface (involuntarily) then it may still be considered “a racing incident.”

25.4.3 Right to the Line
The driver in front has the right to choose any line, as long as they are not considered to be blocking. The
driver in front loses the right to choose his or her line when the overtaking driver has their front wheel next to the
driver. As an example, once the lead car loses the right to choose the line that driver cannot “squeeze” another
vehicle off of a straight away claiming the “three-quarters of a car width.”

25.4.4 Blocking
A driver may choose to protect his or her line so long as it is not considered blocking. Blocking is defined as
two (2) consecutive line changes to “protect his/her line,” and in doing so, impedes the vehicle that is trying to
pass with each of the two (2) consecutive movements. Drivers are encouraged to check with the Race Director
for a full explanation before the start of the race.


"Right to the Line" is the one people generally don't understand.

MaXyM
05-02-2018, 15:36
"Right to the Line" is the one people generally don't understand.

Especially if someone tries to apply this rule to dive-bombing ;)
Worth to mention, a lot of league regulations (I believe to be corresponding with FIA ones) define edge point of "right to the line" as a moment when front wheel being next to the rear wheel.

davidt33
05-02-2018, 15:59
Every organization will have their own rules around overtaking. However, most of them will have similarities. Here are some pieces from the NASA rulebook:

https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/document/document/282/2018.2.pdf

"Right to the Line" is the one people generally don't understand.

Excellent guidance in the linked quote.

dhfool
05-02-2018, 19:55
Every organization will have their own rules around overtaking. However, most of them will have similarities. Here are some pieces from the NASA rulebook:

https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/document/document/282/2018.2.pdf




"Right to the Line" is the one people generally don't understand.

In praxis...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-MLP5hilpg

MaXyM
05-02-2018, 20:30
In praxis there are other rules, even different in specific series. For example in F1 you don't have to leave a room for a car outside, while leaving room for car inside is mandatory.

Mahjik
05-02-2018, 21:12
In praxis...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-MLP5hilpg

BTW, those drivers were on probation after that race...

dhfool
06-02-2018, 15:08
BTW, those drivers were on probation after that race...

I donīt have more info on that. What was the reason for that probation? It is extreme, but to me, it looks like rules were not broken...

cpcdem
06-02-2018, 15:23
I donīt have more info on that. What was the reason for that probation? It is extreme, but to me, it looks like rules were not broken...

Well, let's get started with "...The driver in front loses the right to choose his or her line when the overtaking driver has their front wheel next to the
driver. As an example, once the lead car loses the right to choose the line that driver cannot “squeeze” another
vehicle off of a straight away...". I think throwing the other car to the wall qualifies as breaking this rule :)

Drizute
06-02-2018, 15:32
As a NASA graduate.. 80/20 Rule applies, 80% of the responsibility for passing is on the passer, AS long as the passee COMPLIES. If you cannot maintain a line in a corner, either outside or inside and leave room for the each other, DONT make the pass.
Dive Bombers can possibly get to a point of contention on the inside at an apex but frequently are travelling waaaay to fast to maintain the inside line and push outward on the under steer pushing the passee into the wall(insert appropriate barrier).

Same goes for the outside, if you lose the corner on the apex and are not up to the driver with your wheel, give way in the corner and allow the inside passer to drift to the outside, because its his corner, you have not attained the right to the line at that stage.

Its just my 2c but mostly its common cents.....

dhfool
06-02-2018, 15:50
Is there any official statement?

cpcdem
06-02-2018, 16:03
I really hope you don't consider this throwing to the wall move legit. Because unfortunately it appears there are many players online who indeed believe it's ok to do that!

Mahjik
06-02-2018, 16:14
Is there any official statement?

https://www.motorsport.com/alms/news/laguna-seca-imsa-statement-on-gt2-finish/

dhfool
06-02-2018, 17:50
I really hope you don't consider this throwing to the wall move legit. Because unfortunately it appears there are many players online who indeed believe it's ok to do that!

Porsche driver was not penalised and there were no protests after the race. So i think, that it was legit move. That is why i want to know why they were both punished. If that was for breaking the rules or for "dangerous behavior" on track.

IMO it was legit move but very dangerous in this scenario...

cpcdem
06-02-2018, 17:54
IMO it was legit move but very dangerous in this scenario...

A legit move pushing the other guy on the wall, while he was alongside him?

Mahjik
06-02-2018, 17:56
Porsche driver was not penalised and there were no protests after the race. So i think, that it was legit move. That is why i want to know why they were both punished. If that was for breaking the rules or for "dangerous behavior" on track.

IMO it was legit move but very dangerous in this scenario...

At least every racing series that I have looked at the rules (aside from demolition derbies), you cannot simply run an opponent off the track or into a wall. You can squeeze them, but you have to provide running room. There was a lot of contact between both cars. Again, avoidable contact. There were several "infractions" during that sequence of events which lead to probation on both drivers.

VelvetTorpedo
06-02-2018, 18:07
IMO it was legit move but very dangerous in this scenario...

I'll be sure not to join an online session with you if you think thats an ok thing to do to someone.

dhfool
06-02-2018, 18:38
A legit move pushing the other guy on the wall, while he was alongside him?

But he was far behind when porsche starts to changing direction to the wall. In that moment he should go outside and win maybe. Yes porsche should leave him more room...and vette should brake when he realise that he could not pass. They are both to blame. At the end, porsche has won and donīt have DQ or any other penalisaton. If you find OFFICIAL evidence about braking the rules then I would happily change my opinion.

Mahjik
06-02-2018, 18:42
But he was far behind when porsche starts to changing direction to the wall. In that moment he should go outside and win maybe. Yes porsche should leave him more room...and vette should brake when he realise that he could not pass. They are both to blame. At the end, porsche has won and donīt have DQ or any other penalisaton. If you find OFFICIAL evidence about braking the rules then I would happily change my opinion.

Don't need to.. IMSA declared they drove against their driving regulations and took action. You can disagree with IMSA, but it was already handled and dealt with... IMSA would not have taken action if everything was within their rulebook.

dhfool
06-02-2018, 18:44
I'll be sure not to join an online session with you if you think thats an ok thing to do to someone.

If something is legit that does not mean it is OK. I would not do that.

AbeWoz
06-02-2018, 18:46
But he was far behind when porsche starts to changing direction to the wall. In that moment he should go outside and win maybe. Yes porsche should leave him more room...and vette should brake when he realise that he could not pass. They are both to blame. At the end, porsche has won and donīt have DQ or any other penalisaton. If you find OFFICIAL evidence about braking the rules then I would happily change my opinion.


Don't need to.. IMSA declared they drove against their driving regulations and took action. You can disagree with IMSA, but it was already handled and dealt with... IMSA would not have taken action if everything was within their rulebook.

and in case you weren't aware dhfool, IMSA is the governing body for the old ALMS (series the video clip is from) and the current WTSC, so the link posted with the IMSA response is as official as it gets.

cpcdem
06-02-2018, 18:53
But he was far behind when porsche starts to changing direction to the wall.

A defensive move (line change) is allowed only when it is pro active (you change your line before the car just behind changes his). If you change your line as a reply to the attacking car changes his, then this is illegal blocking.

But in this specific case, it was even worse than that, the corvette was already partly alongside the Porsche, and the Porsche kept pushing him to the wall. And he kept doing it even after he had almost completely passed him.

In my opinion handing them just a simple probation was very forgiving...

Edit: just to be fair, I am sure the Porsche guy was very upset by the other guy bumping him, throwing him out of line and making it easier for him to pass for the win and I assume in the heat of the battle he sort of felt entitled of returning the favor by blatantly blocking him. So IMO they are both to blame, the Corvette guy should be penalized as well, but what the Porsche guy did was way over any kind of limits..

iggy
06-02-2018, 21:01
I've , been driven off track several times by one driver... annoying as can be... the guy was turning laps 1.5 to 2 seconds slower then me, things like that are what lead to road rage... and other time it was a guy driving a Church bus in RL...