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Ryori San
10-02-2018, 08:41
Morning all!

While we're all still buzzing from yesterdays long awaited patch, I thought I'd share a few details that I noticed while racing last night.

I spend almost all my time racing AI, set to 120/100 on Le Mans in Group C (having clocked just under 14'000 miles on La Sarthe as I type this.. Don't judge me! It's why I bought this!) regularly racing between 30 - 60 lap races. I always use the XJR9 and have my setups as spot on as can be. As many of you, I was exceptionally excited about the patch so left work early yesterday to get home and try it out. After a few 'tweaks' and testing the starts (I'll get back to that in a wee bit) I set off for another 30 laps at Le Mans

Using rolling starts, I immediately notice a change for the better as all cars stick to their lines around the Ford chicanes, stay in position and don't hit the throttle until green. A much more natural start. Before yesterday I was able to pull an average of 6 seconds lead before hitting the Mulsanne which was always frustratingly unnatural, so I tended to drop off the throttle and stay near the field, hoping for a fight later on. I don't have to do this anymore. (They are still a little slower than me into the first corners but they seem to make it up shortly after) On to the Mulsanne, there are two scenarios I see most regularly: 1. They disappear in my mirror and I gradually pull a large gap over the next few laps. 2. I get a bit of a fight for half a lap or so and then they disappear in my mirror and I gradually pull a large gap over the next few laps... Most of the fun has been coming from the endurance side of it and the later down the line fights here and there. Yesterday 2nd place was 6 tenths behind me at this point with the entire field lined up behind. I had to defend into both chicanes and this continued until the Porsche curves, where I managed to pull a second on them. "Nice while it lasted" I thought, until I looked in the mirror to see that a rogue Porsche had broken free from the pack and was now 0.3 seconds behind me.. Practically touching my rear end and fighting for my position! I was pretty shocked to be honest.. It turned into a back and forth that lasted several laps.

I have never had to fight so hard against the AI and it was truly awesome. For whatever reason, the Porsche pitted at lap 6 putting an end to the fight, but it was not the last time this happened in the race. Later, I was again being pushed for position, this time by a Sauber Merc (That engine noise is quite intimidating when it's right behind you). I expected this encounter to come to an end as usual, when we hit traffic, as the AI is so tentative around slower cars. Didn't happen... first gt3 car we happen upon and I see this Merc' fire round it at full chat, staying right on me. A second backmarker, a third and so on. Did not phase him at all! Approaching the end of lap 11 and we both pit at the same time.. He refuels a little quicker than me, taking 1st and the battle continues as we leave the pits. It all felt pretty Epic.

The balance is far superior and I absolutely loved this race. I expect there will be plenty more moments I want to shout about. Hope you're all experiencing this sort of racing too!

Going back to those tweaks:

Obviously, being obsessed with Group C and Le Mans, it was the first thing I looked for in patch notes. I (and a friend) have spent an unnatural amount of time tuning the XJR9 to get it where we want it, in prep for a 24hr event we're doing. So, as you can imagine, I was a little worried when I read there had been changes to Group C handling. On entering the game, I find my setup has changed in a few areas (e.g. tyre pressures were lowered, tyre contact patch had changed etc) and unfortunately, the car drove like a bag of badgers so I set out to get the handling back. I did get it to drive pretty well after a few changes but it's nowhere near as stable and has lost considerable speed. I have had to drop difficulty and aggression to keep the car competitive/stop me worrying about it's stability.

I'm looking at the patch note RE: Group C


"Group C and IMSA GTP: increased engine rotational inertia, new tyre carcass, and re-balance of adhesive vs ‘rip grip’. Bump Stop lengths also reviewed, as was lift:drag ratio on all cars. Fuel consumptions also addressed."

And wondering if anybody (perhaps from SMS?) is able to help explain what this translates to more specifically with regards to setup so I can figure out how to get the car's handling somewhere near my previous.

Any info on this would be really appreciated.

Cheers!

davidt33
10-02-2018, 09:33
......I spend almost all my time racing AI, set to 120/100....

Kudos to you guys who race against AI at 120/100 or thereabouts. Bewilders me every time I see you guys mention that. Y'all deserve some sort of an Alien award.

rosko
10-02-2018, 09:44
The Ai is better, its come along way from release, I'm just really disappointed with the state of the ffb in many of the cars.

prinsmp
10-02-2018, 09:44
Kudos to you guys who race against AI at 120/100 or thereabouts. Bewilders me every time I see you guys mention that. Y'all deserve some sort of an Alien award.

My feeling reading that part, if you're easily competitive against 120ai, you're just too good : )

Buy glad to see the experience drives can enjoy the game as well. Look forward playing on ps4 when patch is available.

Ryori San
10-02-2018, 09:57
Kudos to you guys who race against AI at 120/100 or thereabouts. Bewilders me every time I see you guys mention that. Y'all deserve some sort of an Alien award.


My feeling reading that part, if you're easily competitive against 120ai, you're just too good : )

Buy glad to see the experience drives can enjoy the game as well. Look forward playing on ps4 when patch is available.

14'000 Miles on the same track in the same car will do it for you :D .. I'm not that good everywhere and I'm pretty much useless if I'm using paddle shift.. Brain gets confused if there is no H box! For now, I've also had to drop the setting a bit until I sort this tuning. Car just isn't fast enough :(



The Ai is better, its come along way from release, I'm just really disappointed with the state of the ffb in many of the cars.

I know it changes a lot from car to car, but I find there are enough options and parameters to make it pretty sweet in anything I drive. Took me a lot of fiddling and testing, but I can get it sweet quickly even in new cars (to me) now. Maybe throw some time at messing with FFB alone and see how one setting varies from say, a road car to a high aero car, imagining why it's different as a result of suspension etc. Just a thought.

Zaskarspants
10-02-2018, 10:03
Patches can change the performance of cars so you may not be able to reach your previous times but I would have thought the effect would be quite small.

Ryori San
10-02-2018, 10:09
Patches can change the performance of cars so you may not be able to reach your previous times but I would have thought the effect would be quite small.

The effect on the tuning has been huge unfortunately (around 5 seconds per lap average). I know these things happen, that's fine.. Just hoping someone can shed a little light on the specifics of the changes so I can relate them to tuning. I am cool to just re tune.. But it's taken literally months of tweaking in preparation for a charity event which is not far away now.. I haven't got the time to test things anymore.

Sidenote: Bristol U.S or UK?

pferreirag60
10-02-2018, 10:13
I race too almost exclusively with the Ai. Yesterday trying my favorite car in a 40 minutes race in nurburgring nordschleife with GT3 GTE and LMP2, using almost the same settings as you(100:100), usually at the start i always have a fix position, almost at the back of the pack, just so i can have some fight with the ai. Well but what a surprise, after the first couple of corners i coulndīt run awy from them, driving the Porsche Gt3, before patch i could run with the lmp2 cars and pass by the GTE, now...letīs just say that before entering Nordschleife, Lmp2 at the front followed by GTE and then 2 GT3 cars followed by me.. It took me almost an entire lap just to pass an GT3 car, and then i was been forced by another one at my back almost bumper to bumper... letīs just say, that i had to stop after 4 laps, just think about what was happening i was a bit let down with myself, very difficult now to keep up with them at the max settings, i suppose in some class and tracks i will have to tone a little bit down the Ai :).

I also feel the Porsche GT3 different, much more tail happy, iīm slower now with that car, I also feel that the FFB in that car changed a lot, like iīm driving a different car. Because i didnīt knew, i tested with hard tires only. It is so different the FFB that i changed from Immersion to custom with Jack Spadeīs files, with total different values(almost) than before... and it feels better, maybe, iīm a little bit lost now, have to test much more.

Zaskarspants
10-02-2018, 10:21
The effect on the tuning has been huge unfortunately (around 5 seconds per lap average). I know these things happen, that's fine.. Just hoping someone can shed a little light on the specifics of the changes so I can relate them to tuning. I am cool to just re tune.. But it's taken literally months of tweaking in preparation for a charity event which is not far away now.. I haven't got the time to test things anymore.

Sidenote: Bristol U.S?

Bristol, UK.

I cannot repeat or dispute your claim as I am awaiting the xbox patch.

I am surprised by your claim of a 5s difference as outside of specific bop adjustments I have not noticed such a performance variation issue previously.

My own particular 120 /100 crown is at Oulton park with the ginetta GT5 where I can often beat the AI. I use std loose set up but I will be sure to check my times after p4.

davidt33
10-02-2018, 10:28
My feeling reading that part, if you're easily competitive against 120ai, you're just too good : )

Buy glad to see the experience drives can enjoy the game as well. Look forward playing on ps4 when patch is available.

True dat.

And about the latest patch for PS4/Console users, boy oh boy am I looking forward to that like a little kid anxiously awaiting his present to open. I know it's already out for PC users and just can't wait for when it's available for us. Keeping fingers crossed when I fire up the console this morning I see it available. Gonna make this great game even better as evidenced from patch to patch. I read the patch release notes for PC and it looks very promising.

Ryori San
10-02-2018, 10:53
Bristol, UK.

I cannot repeat or dispute your claim as I am awaiting the xbox patch.

I am surprised by your claim of a 5s difference as outside of specific bop adjustments I have not noticed such a performance variation issue previously.

My own particular 120 /100 crown is at Oulton park with the ginetta GT5 where I can often beat the AI. I use std loose set up but I will be sure to check my times after p4.

Well awright then babber!

5 seconds isn't huge on a circuit as big as La Sarthe I guess. Lap times though, aren't my focus here, I can balance that with AI difficulty in the short term, should I need to. I would however like to get the stability back. Having a twitchy car for 24 hours definitely makes me feel less confident about completing the event, which is for something very close to my heart and thus, important to me.

Zaskarspants
10-02-2018, 11:39
Well awright then babber!

5 seconds isn't huge on a circuit as big as La Sarthe I guess. Lap times though, aren't my focus here, I can balance that with AI difficulty in the short term, should I need to. I would however like to get the stability back. Having a twitchy car for 24 hours definitely makes me feel less confident about completing the event, which is for something very close to my heart and thus, important to me.

The changes in that class will presumably be experienced by all other participants. If all experience the changes as you do then I expect the racing still to be close, albeit at a 5s per lap slower pace as you reported.

yannara
10-02-2018, 11:42
I was just going to start new thread about "Adjusting AI diffuculty in patch 4" but I guess this thread could do the same. I gone through entire change log, but didnīt find any single line to answer my concern about AI diffuculty. I notice there was a lot of track-based inprovements though. Lets see how this will work out for me now :)

Ryori San
10-02-2018, 12:07
The changes in that class will presumably be experienced by all other participants. If all experience the changes as you do then I expect the racing still to be close, albeit at a 5s per lap slower pace as you reported.

To be clear, the racing is not 5 seconds a lap slower. The changes to the handling on the XJR9 have caused my tuning to be less stable, causing it to be 5 seconds a lap slower. It is simply the tuning that has been affected.

yannara
10-02-2018, 14:22
TC, Tier1, Euro Champ, 1st track - hockenheim. AI 79%. Practise and qualify during rain - always 16th, 2-4 sec behind 15th driver. During race, overtook half of a pack during first lap, during secold placed myself 3rd. Without a small spin, I would won the race. Hmm... still not good.

Tar Heel
10-02-2018, 21:03
Here I am still experiencing the lonely island effect where the AI behind me can't keep up and I can't catch the AI in front of me. There is always about a 3-4 second gap behind me and ahead of me and it just feels like I am doing laps with no one to race. Maybe someday I will be able to dial the AI in.

yannara
11-02-2018, 10:45
I still see the same AI behavior around lap times.
1. In Practise, the best time is set within first 5-10min and it never changes.
2. Same for qualify, though might get little bit better.
3. In race, AI is slower than in qualify and practise. I came last at qualify, but I won the race. Not realistic situation, is it? ... :(

Bealdor
11-02-2018, 11:22
I still see the same AI behavior around lap times.
1. In Practise, the best time is set within first 5-10min and it never changes.
2. Same for qualify, though might get little bit better.
3. In race, AI is slower than in qualify and practise. I came last at qualify, but I won the race. Not realistic situation, is it? ... :(

1+2: Known issue
3: They're faster in qualifying but should be slower in practice session than in the race. Raise the AI level and improve your qualifying setups. :)

koivis
11-02-2018, 11:34
The Group C and GTP cars definitely had their lift drag values changed, the biggest change seems to be for the Nissan GTP. I tested its top speed on the Monza oval just a day before the patch, and it was 369 km/h(!). After the patch, i could only do 347 km/h, even after meticulously tweaking the gear ratios. Other cars were not touched as much, most seemed to stay the same. Nissan R89C lost about 10 km/h, the LM version stayed the same.

Anyway, the "nerfing" of the GTP probably means that on any track with long straights (Le Mans, Daytona, Nordschleife) its laptimes will be seriously worse than before, and frankly, the old high speed drag values must have been way too low. The car, as it was raced in real life, mostly raced on slow-ish tracks, Daytona being the fastest one they raced it on. It also missed 1988 Daytona, Nissan not taking part at all. Current in game record with the old version at Daytona is a completely ridiculous 1:29.259. A realistic lap time would be 1:35-1:37. From 1989 Nissan lost about 100 horsepower due to a tighter restrictor, and could barely go under 1:38 at Daytona. The GTP record is 1:33.875 in 1993 with the ultra high-tech Toyota Eagle Mk III.

DinoM
11-02-2018, 11:41
In qualifying, you always have to be faster than a tournament. Minimal fuel, special settings. Tank filled with contests, other cars, etc. ... I think.

Ryori San
11-02-2018, 14:18
In qualifying, you always have to be faster than a tournament. Minimal fuel, special settings. Tank filled with contests, other cars, etc. ... I think.

Agree. Take 70 or 80 kg out of the fuel tank and your obviously going to be faster, so absolutely normal for quali times to be lower. I have a quali setup and race setup and the difference between them is within the same margin as AI quali/race times.


The Group C and GTP cars definitely had their lift drag values changed, the biggest change seems to be for the Nissan GTP. I tested its top speed on the Monza oval just a day before the patch, and it was 369 km/h(!). After the patch, i could only do 347 km/h, even after meticulously tweaking the gear ratios. Other cars were not touched as much, most seemed to stay the same. Nissan R89C lost about 10 km/h, the LM version stayed the same.

Anyway, the "nerfing" of the GTP probably means that on any track with long straights (Le Mans, Daytona, Nordschleife) its laptimes will be seriously worse than before, and frankly, the old high speed drag values must have been way too low. The car, as it was raced in real life, mostly raced on slow-ish tracks, Daytona being the fastest one they raced it on. It also missed 1988 Daytona, Nissan not taking part at all. Current in game record with the old version at Daytona is a completely ridiculous 1:29.259. A realistic lap time would be 1:35-1:37. From 1989 Nissan lost about 100 horsepower due to a tighter restrictor, and could barely go under 1:38 at Daytona. The GTP record is 1:33.875 in 1993 with the ultra high-tech Toyota Eagle Mk III.

And yet, unfortunately it's still considerably faster than other GC/IMSA cars on Le Mans.

Tar Heel
11-02-2018, 15:41
Is the Porsche still the slowest Group C car? The testing I did with the class a few months ago showed it quite a bit down on the other Group C cars. Is that still the case?

Ryori San
11-02-2018, 15:53
Is the Porsche still the slowest Group C car? The testing I did with the class a few months ago showed it quite a bit down on the other Group C cars. Is that still the case?

I don't know what it's capable of since patch, TT wise, but I do know that it's now balanced well in AI racing. It's been up there giving me a hard time as much as the rest.

lollygag
11-02-2018, 21:24
To be clear, the racing is not 5 seconds a lap slower. The changes to the handling on the XJR9 have caused my tuning to be less stable, causing it to be 5 seconds a lap slower. It is simply the tuning that has been affected.

I dont agree.. its simply the grip has changed across most cars. you still prob have the best possible setup

Stone Cold Stig
11-02-2018, 22:52
I was always confident that sms would make the AI better and better.
In fact, in its current state im having alot of fun with the AI.

As for the upcoming patch for consoles, its the performance tweaks/optimization that i am most anxious about.

Right now, the game has a "Few" problems when racing with over 15-20 ai cars.

getting this "patched up", no pun intended, will be a deal breaker for me.

Tar Heel
12-02-2018, 06:32
I don't know what it's capable of since patch, TT wise, but I do know that it's now balanced well in AI racing. It's been up there giving me a hard time as much as the rest.

I'll have to redo my class testing again. Part of me wants to wait though as it takes quite a bit of time to test each car, record, and create the video to show out of the box performance before tuning comes into play. I'll probably revisit each class that I have tested once the updates are done, so it may be a while.

I'll give the Porsche a go tomorrow to see if I notice a difference.

Ryori San
12-02-2018, 13:55
I dont agree.. its simply the grip has changed across most cars. you still prob have the best possible setup

After all the testing and retuning I've done over the weekend, I think you're partly right here. AI Racing lap times are indeed around 5 seconds slower on average as the grip just isn't there anymore so cornering speeds are lower. I have however changed several things drastically in the tuning to compensate and get the stability back. Original tuning just didn't cut it, post patch. You're absolutely right about grip. I am starting to feel that the changes to the car are making it more interesting to drive as well.. it's definitely harder work! And I quite like that. Getting excited about the 24 hour race again now :D

N0body Of The Goat
12-02-2018, 15:30
Maybe it is simply the default AI strength and aggression, but I've found the AI to be rather weak in wet conditions at Spa with the Formula A.

Spa
Formula A
21/8/2016 (IIRC)
1400 race start (IIRC)
6 laps
Clear> Thunderstorm x10 weather progression
I used untouched default setup (which still has approximately twice as much fuel as I require, in a car very sensitive to weight changes), but did not use any DRS or KERS all race, starting in last place

I've not done any sim racing for at least two months, I'm very rusty! Also, my wheel had to be limited to ~180 degrees lock-to-lock, because the issue where my wheel locks at ~90 degrees right was present.

In the dry, the AI are competitive, but once the rain comes their pace slows right down and I make up the best part of a minute over the last three laps. At least some of the AI pitted, presumably for wet tyres, when the rain came.

249989

MrTulip
12-02-2018, 18:02
Group A Touring Cars, 10 laps at Donington National and Oulton Park GP.

3 weather slots: medium clouds + random + random, weather synced to race.

AI is very good at 100 skill and 100 aggression. Very nice side by side racing, until it starts raining (heavily). At Donington AI does not pit although the track is completely wet, and forms a "conga line". At Oulton Park similar behavior but half of the AI pits one lap too late even while it rains heavily already on the previous lap, and the rest eventually come at pits total 3 laps late.

If they are calculating that it is better tactic to stay on slicks and waiting for the third slot or the end of the race, that is too much off and they simply lose too much time.
(I checked at Oulton that when they get wets, they are competitive again so they were using slicks when conga forms.)

I tested briefly with Renault 3.5 at Donington and AI was in time to the pits with the same settings, so this may be problem just with Group A touring cars.

I haven't used exact weather slots for testing yet, nor switching to time based weather cycling, but I will do more testing.

Doug914
12-02-2018, 21:53
They are doing that calculation. Admittedly these short races with multiple slots are difficult to balance.

pferreirag60
13-02-2018, 15:00
Hi, i race very often in Nordschiele with multiple class, length 40 minutes races, with 1 hour of practique, with rolling dices as weather slotīs, in Autumm, because of tires. many times is raining. Yesterday with Road B, C and D max cars the race starts with rain, the tires chosen by PCars was Soft(Road porsche Gtr3) and at the beginning i has able to follow the fast cars and even pass two or three cars (100:100 difficult level), but with the passing of time, more rain but the track was nice without water puddles, but my car was sliding allover the place, I was unable to follow even the slowest class cars, only in a straigh, and after maybe fourth gear. The Ai was planted to the track, i was just sliding :)

Note: In another race, with another road car, in rain also, the chosen tires have been Medium, with exactly the same conditions.

With the new patch, what i feel with Hard and Soft tires, is that the window of optimum traction is to small, for me, maybe my style of driving, but iīm really not slow, i just bring the tires to a high temp very fast, and i try to race in tracks with a max temp of 30šc, usually with that temp iīm able to maintain a fast pace, but not in every track, in some, they just overheat to fast, when i can maintain the tires below 85šc, usually i can race for 1 hour with the same tires and maybe not even 60% of worn, so I think i donīt have a bad style of driving in respect to maintain the tires. The climb of temp in the tires(to fast) have been my problem. Iīve tried all the good advices, even setup the car with the brake conducts full opened the right pressure for the right tire as i have read in the forums, but even with the right pressures it is to much difficult to maintain the right temp, if i race in cold conditions, winter with maybe 10šc or track at 20šc it is better to soft tires but also difficult to have the need temp, I think 80šc in the tires?!

Of course when everything runs well, I mean the right temperatures of weather/track/tire, as i had also yesterday, in Sugo with GT1 and Ferrari F50(what a machine, what a machine!!!) driving with the Ai (100:100) i just couldnīt believe what i was feeling, lap by lap i could just take more time, every lap, 0,020s 0,030 0,010 I was feeling just as been there in the "game" driving this fantastic race car in a marvelous track with an ferocious competition, this car feels so good, when the tires are there, 40 minutes race, started 12, finished first, but just for an hair, an ai was just bumping my bumper in the final 2 laps, tires to hot :)

MrTulip
13-02-2018, 16:48
They are doing that calculation. Admittedly these short races with multiple slots are difficult to balance.

Maybe the amount of weather slots should be limited for short races (just to save you the nigh impossible task of balancing all possible combinations). That would be too bad, though, as I absolutely love dry-random-random combination with short races. Starting from the back of the pack, when the AI works, good timing with pitstop gives just enough time to get into the points fight on the last laps.

I did today several races at Donington National, trying different weather conditions (synced to race), with three slots. 'Rain' in the middle slot and AI started pitting immediately on the next lap after it started raining. But with 'random' in the middle slot (even when it starts pouring) they act differently. So would it be so that the AI does not "know" the upcoming weather and does it act differently because of that?

I also tried with just two weather slots, second one with random, and that worked better. AI started pitting immediately after the conditions became too unbearable, although they went from competitive to conga real fast in the middle of the lap before going in to pits.
Currently they are really slow when they switch to this panic mode. Just before that happens they are still very believable; not too fast and they fight each other and player.

MrTulip
13-02-2018, 17:55
Hi, i race very often in Nordschiele with multiple class, length 40 minutes races, with 1 hour of practique, with rolling dices as weather slotīs, in Autumm, because of tires. many times is raining. Yesterday with Road B, C and D max cars the race starts with rain, the tires chosen by PCars was Soft(Road porsche Gtr3) and at the beginning i has able to follow the fast cars and even pass two or three cars (100:100 difficult level), but with the passing of time, more rain but the track was nice without water puddles, but my car was sliding allover the place, I was unable to follow even the slowest class cars, only in a straigh, and after maybe fourth gear. The Ai was planted to the track, i was just sliding :)


This has been my experience too with road cars (already before Patch 4); AI is too fast with Soft tyres (Trofeo R / Semi-slicks / Nitto-01) in the rain.

Of course I cannot tell for certain that they aren't using Corsa or Summer tyre from the start, but if they do, they are seriously spanking me in Corvette with Trofeos several laps while the track is still dry. :upset:


Edit: Come to think of it, this might be deliberate with road cars. It would be generally difficult to balance road cars to weather, as some of them do not have soft tyres at all (McLaren F1 at least, and possibly Ferrari Enzo too). They'd always be under or overperforming compared to others or they'd have to be left out of the class group.

And I don't think they pit either, so for the best road car racing experience one should find out a good difficulty level and then use Medium tyres (Corsa / Track / Nitto-05), unless one is hotlapping in Time-Trial.

GregFowler
21-02-2018, 19:03
I am currently in the Group C racing series driving the C9 Mercedes. It reminds me of the SportsLite cars where you are doing 35 miles an hour in a second gear corner and you lose the rear end and do a near 360. I have tried to dial out the oversteer but I never feel confident in any corner. It is like I have to tip toe just about every where. I wonder if it is just the C9 or are the other cars like that too?

I do not have the new patch.
Cheers, Greg

Bealdor
21-02-2018, 19:09
I am currently in the Group C racing series driving the C9 Mercedes. It reminds me of the SportsLite cars where you are doing 35 miles an hour in a second gear corner and you lose the rear end and do a near 360. I have tried to dial out the oversteer but I never feel confident in any corner. It is like I have to tip toe just about every where. I wonder if it is just the C9 or are the other cars like that too?

I do not have the new patch.
Cheers, Greg

Are you losing it on corner entry?
If yes, increase the engine braking compensation value in the car setup (Engine/ECU tab).