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iggy
14-02-2018, 16:48
I don't think I've seen anything discussing this particular issue, and I'm curious what exactly has changed and how it affects the ability to race without excessive incursion of penalties... However, since I'm on a Playstation, I don't have the new update, so no personal ability to experience the tweaks that have apparently been made...

Here is a list of things that seem related in the patch 1.4 update log... not sure if there are others that I overlooked.

Added sound for penalty HUD messages.
Tuning of cut track ‘tweakers’ following Update 3 feedback. This now reduces the amount of calculated slow down time required following track limit breaches.
Fixed an exploit where the player could become immune to penalties when ghosted in multiplayer.
Improved an issue where ‘return to position penalties’ were allocated based on overall position, and not class position.
Improvements to the cut-track penalty system now takes into account crashed, pitted, and other class opponents in timed races.

So, have things improved significantly in your post patch 1.4 observations?

Schnizz58
14-02-2018, 17:19
I'm interested in this too, thanks for posting the question.

I think this is the one that's going to have the most impact.


Tuning of cut track ‘tweakers’ following Update 3 feedback. This now reduces the amount of calculated slow down time required following track limit breaches.


Rather than improve the limits themselves they've opted to be more forgiving on the enforcement side. Which is fine, that needed to be done too. I was hoping that they would make it so that the first n violations would result in no penalty as long as no positions were gained but the release notes don't read that way. If we're still forced to give back time for every little transgression, then it's still busted in my opinion.

MaXyM
14-02-2018, 17:23
I did 1 league race (GT3@Brands) including preparations after patch4 so far.
Based on this experience I have to list some things:
1. Warning sound is a bit too aggressive. But I don't do much offtracks so cannot say it's annoying.
2. On the other hand I cannot see a reason behind adding this sound. For sure it is not played at the moment of exceeding a track limits. It's played simultaneously with message about a need to slow down, so it can happen even after subsequent turn.
3. There is no indicator how much you have to slow down, or how long you have to slowing. Sometimes it takes a really a lot of time, especially if you postponing execution of a penalty. Sometimes I took whole straights between turns, Let's say Dingle Dell or between Sheene and Stirlings
4. I have a feeling the later you start execution the longer penalty you get. IMO it includes the delay between exceeding limits and warning message. But don't have hard evidences.
5. In practice session the penalties are way way longer comparing to race.
6. System doesn't gave us penalty in situation when I has been thrown by another car to cut a corner. Please note it happened only once to me, so cannot say more. But it looks very good so far.

As I mentioned, I'm one of drivers who doesn't care much about penalties because I used to race with fine margin not exceeding track limits. But it is important to me to be not penalized for situations I'm not responsible for, like consequences of accidents, avoiding crashed/stalled cars etc. From mine, and other drivers short experience, this aspect looks way better.
What is I don't understand is, SMS added something which hasn't been requested by community (penalty sound indicator), or at least I haven't noticed such requests, on the other hand they haven't added what has been been requesting: indicator of "size" of penalty; how long we have to roll slowing down.

Schnizz58
14-02-2018, 17:29
Thanks MaXyM.

2. Based on this, the warning sound is useless.
4. I'm pretty sure you're right about that.
5. I'm reasonably OK with that because they don't really matter in a practice session anyway.
6. That's good news.

rich1e I
14-02-2018, 17:40
Pretty sure the sound has been added because people could easily overlook the message.

Mark Race
14-02-2018, 17:41
I also give the updated penalty system a cautious thumbs up. Like MaXyM I don't really have enough evidence to go on so this is based on just a few experiences.

Also playing Brands Hatch but with the little Ginetta GT5 back to back on Xbox then PC I'd say the penalties have improved quite a bit. I felt Brands Hatch was one of the more severe tracks for penalties in v3, no complaints from me though it was harsh but fair for everyone, on most other tracks, chicane at Nurburgring GP aside I rarely get any penalties in any case. The V4 version feels fairer both in terms of allowable use of kerbs and any time added if I did stray too far. The in class race return race position is working correctly from what I've seen on the Red Bull Ring and Daytona Road Course.

Personally I like the audio cue, it seems about the right level in Rift VR, it sometimes helps in the heat of a close battle.

Knowing how much or for how long I need to slow down would certainly be the biggest improvement they could add.

Overall though it seems to be working well but keep in mind I'm the sort of person that likes track limits and rules because I can't stand the blatant cheating that goes on in so many other racing games.

Ofnir4
14-02-2018, 17:41
Okay, I thought the sound was a widget of some sort the stream I watched (sim racing paddock) had and said to myself 'that is ridiculous, why would you add that ?"...

I was really hoping for 3.

gregc
14-02-2018, 17:42
Thanks MaXyM.

2. Based on this, the warning sound is useless.
4. I'm pretty sure you're right about that.
5. I'm reasonably OK with that because they don't really matter in a practice session anyway.
6. That's good news.

Very useful in VR - the message is very easy to miss there :)

ant1897
14-02-2018, 17:44
Limits are more bearable now. However, in the public lobbies I've been in, ive gotten give back position penalties for being crashed into and pushed off the track. At the end of the day, the penalty system is 'ok' for public lobbies and casual play, but for league/competitive play, i'm a firm believer that rules and regs off is the way to go.

Schnizz58
14-02-2018, 17:45
Very useful in VR - the message is very easy to miss there :)

That's a good point. However it's still of limited usefulness if it's delayed, especially if the system penalizes you more, the more you wait to serve your time penalty.

cpcdem
14-02-2018, 17:53
I think slowdowns in general are a lot more reasonable than in patch 3.

Needs a lot more racing tests (I have around 10 online races post-patch 4), but I felt that in some cases (mainly in low speed) the system is too lenient at times, while still too harsh in some others, especially when going high speed. I mean in wide fast corners like the Schumacher S in Nurburgring, where you typically use a lot of kerbs, if you happen to overdo it, you need to slow for too long, hurting you a lot because it's high speed straight ahead and you lose a lot of time (while didn't gain that much by going just a bit off). On the other hand I saw someone blatantly cut the final S and he told me after race that he did not get a slowdown.

Take this with a grain of salt, as I said needs more race time to get a better opinion. But apart from some hiccups, it does seem much better now. Although some indication of how much we need to slowdown would be an enormous extra help...

Mark Race
14-02-2018, 17:55
but for league/competitive play, i'm a firm believer that rules and regs off is the way to go.

It's good that we've got the choice to turn regulations on or off then.

Personally, I wouldn't race in any form of competitive way with them off. I've experienced plenty of people who are super fast in games with no rules but can't complete a lap without getting a penalty in this system. Worst of all they had no idea why they were getting a penalty even when the replays show them fully 4 wheels off track. Years of games without decent penalties are part of the problem. With the penalties off it all becomes so much more subjective and individuals view of what is and isn't cheating and that in my experience has been the 2nd most frequent cause of racing game arguments, after that eternal favourite - who caused the accident.

poirqc
14-02-2018, 18:03
About point 4:

IIRC, In Yorks videos, about the online system, the longer you take to slowdown when the penalty pops up, the longer you need to slowdown to remove it.

sp3ctor
14-02-2018, 18:06
I like the alert noise. It gets my attention when sometimes the message can get lost. Personally, I wish they’d give you a number to hit on the penalty (ie: slow down to 100 for five seconds) and a count.

tipostrano
14-02-2018, 18:12
A timer could be amazing. Like how much time you have to "lose" for warning to disappear.
Anyway, now is more fair, you don't lose 4/5 seconds every time u have to slow down for warning. Is more consistent and about how much time you gained for cutting

gp2112
14-02-2018, 18:46
I think slowdowns in general are a lot more reasonable than in patch 3.

Needs a lot more racing tests (I have around 10 online races post-patch 4), but I felt that in some cases (mainly in low speed) the system is too lenient at times, while still too harsh in some others, especially when going high speed. I mean in wide fast corners like the Schumacher S in Nurburgring, where you typically use a lot of kerbs, if you happen to overdo it, you need to slow for too long, hurting you a lot because it's high speed straight ahead and you lose a lot of time (while didn't gain that much by going just a bit off). On the other hand I saw someone blatantly cut the final S and he told me after race that he did not get a slowdown.

Take this with a grain of salt, as I said needs more race time to get a better opinion. But apart from some hiccups, it does seem much better now. Although some indication of how much we need to slowdown would be an enormous extra help...

I have seen what you have posted myself. Some tracks seem to allow you much more freedom while others seem just as bad. A good example of "bad" is Imola. Due to the nature of the layout and corners there are a lot of corners that either require you to slow down to an unreasonable level, or be more liberal in your usage of the kerbs. I was in a race last night at Imola and was being penalized for using Kerbs as liberally, if not less liberally, as they are used in reality. I must have received five slow-downs in the race yet not once did a tire touch anywhere but the track or kerb.

There is a reason why those kerbs are there, and even the green areas beyond or after some of the kerb: It is less expensive to alter kerbs, to make the "area of use" on the track bigger, than to enlarge and re-pave the whole track. All one has to do is look at the preponderance of black and where it is at on a track to see where the "natural" line is. Often, whether the marshals will admit it or not, the "natural" line is not within the marked "limits" of the track, and is still allowed as part of the racing surface. This should be considered when delineating the "boundaries" of the track.

Schnizz58
14-02-2018, 18:52
There is a reason why those kerbs are there, and even the green areas beyond or after some of the kerb: It is less expensive to alter kerbs, to make the "area of use" on the track bigger, than to enlarge and re-pave the whole track. All one has to do is look at the preponderance of black and where it is at on a track to see where the "natural" line is. Often, whether the marshals will admit it or not, the "natural" line is not within the marked "limits" of the track, and is still allowed as part of the racing surface. This should be considered when delineating the "boundaries" of the track.
I believe they did try to consider such areas, which is how we ended up with the lovely "50% rule".

Purg
14-02-2018, 18:55
I have no problem with the alert noise, stops me from having to take my focus from what's happening in front of me instead of peering into the corner waiting to see if I was penalised for a mistake.

The penalties themselves appear to be a lot more forgiving and applied more intelligently. Penalties for mistakes where you may run wide and not gain any time advantage happen a lot less (if at all).

I'd still prefer a timer that gave you an indication about how much time you need to give back. Especially when you're coming onto a long straight, giving back time is compounded and if you're trying to flirt between serving an unknown penalty and trying to get back on it, you're in danger of losing significantly more time than you're required to serve.

iggy
14-02-2018, 18:58
Well, you all are making me cautiously optimistic about the changes... I'm a driver who still has a 'green' flag, I don't get that many penalties , but there are certain tracks and places that I do, and it really gets irritating...

As for the sound... I do sometimes miss the warning text, so I could see that a sound to indicate the penalty has been incurred could at least make me more aware of the problem ( although in my experience, it's pretty rare that slowing down would save more time then just taking the penalty). I would love to get warning much quicker, so that I could actually better understand where I went wrong... it would be really nice to have a warning sound that would go off immediately upon exceeding the track limit , at least for practice purposes.

I fully agree that what would be really nice, is a timer that would give you some solid clues as to how much you have to slow down. Not sure why SMS wouldn't provide this to us, unless they somehow feel it'd give people some way to game the system... but as it stands right now, without actually knowing how much you have to slow, I find that if you get the message and your on a long straight , or have someone immediately behind you, your better off just taking a time penalty than you are trying to guess how much you'll need to slow down to avoid the penalty.


Of course the most annoying penalty of all, is when you drive off track to avoid someone spinning, and then have to give the position back to the person who spun... if this issue isn't addressed , well, I sure hope they are working on a problem for it.

Meanwhile, any improvements will be good... I often drive way more conservatively than others, and my lap times probably suffer because of it. If I see any improvements, I should be able to push my limits a bit more.

Konan
14-02-2018, 19:05
That's a good point. However it's still of limited usefulness if it's delayed, especially if the system penalizes you more, the more you wait to serve your time penalty.

I think it notifies you the moment the message pops up? So at the time you need to serve the penalty...

Mad Al
14-02-2018, 19:17
I think it notifies you the moment the message pops up? So at the time you need to serve the penalty...

Correct.. it's just to draw your attention to the message.

Konan
14-02-2018, 19:25
Correct.. it's just to draw your attention to the message.

Cool...

SpecialistZer0
14-02-2018, 19:48
Correct.. it's just to draw your attention to the message.

I love that they added the Ping sound, although I'm still fed up with the penalty system. I have just retired from an online race where I was rammed and smashed by another driver, twice, just sat there waiting for someone to pass. He damaged my car which made me limp back to the pits and of course they were full. After waiting a few seconds i get a warning that I will be retired for lack of progress! I therfore retired myself in disgust. Meanwhile, looking at my licence, i've been demoted back to U from F which I worked hard to gain and have now lost due to someone else not driving correctly. This all makes me so annoyed that I think i'll go back to single player only as I don't feel that the penalty system is at all fair or just and there are too many others out there that are willing to ruin your race. Shame.

Mad Al
14-02-2018, 20:08
I love that they added the Ping sound, although I'm still fed up with the penalty system. I have just retired from an online race where I was rammed and smashed by another driver, twice, just sat there waiting for someone to pass. He damaged my car which made me limp back to the pits and of course they were full. After waiting a few seconds i get a warning that I will be retired for lack of progress! I therfore retired myself in disgust. Meanwhile, looking at my licence, i've been demoted back to U from F which I worked hard to gain and have now lost due to someone else not driving correctly. This all makes me so annoyed that I think i'll go back to single player only as I don't feel that the penalty system is at all fair or just and there are too many others out there that are willing to ruin your race. Shame.

As the expression goes, don't let the *******s grind you down.

To get fast safety progress you need to be getting up close and personal to other cars.. but not touching them.. and just a couple of races should get you from a U to an F.. another 3 to 4 should get you an E.... basically as long as you concentrate on staying clean and avoiding the troll types, you'll make progress.

Schnizz58
14-02-2018, 20:54
I think it notifies you the moment the message pops up? So at the time you need to serve the penalty...

It would be a lot more useful if it was when the infraction occurred. The message is usually late and provides little feedback for what you did wrong.

Mad Al
14-02-2018, 20:56
It would be a lot more useful if it was when the infraction occurred. The message is usually late.

The infraction is based on gaining time.. so until it has calculated that you have gained time.. see how it works ?

cpcdem
14-02-2018, 20:56
I love that they added the Ping sound, although I'm still fed up with the penalty system. I have just retired from an online race where I was rammed and smashed by another driver, twice, just sat there waiting for someone to pass. He damaged my car which made me limp back to the pits and of course they were full. After waiting a few seconds i get a warning that I will be retired for lack of progress!

That's a completely different problem, it's a new bug after patch 4, but doesn't have to do at all with the penalty system. I wanted to do some more testing before posting a report for that, but in short, this message "retiring due to insufficient progress" it's being displayed at times it shouldn't and it does not go away, no matter what you do. It has happened to me twice after patch 4, that in qualifying once I left the pits for a second time, I was getting this countdown, end when it ended it would return me back to the pits, tried to go out many times but it wouldn't let me. Both times I think I had been previously indeed stationery for a few seconds on track, before going to the pits "directly" (by pressing the button, not manually driving back).

Konan
14-02-2018, 20:58
It would be a lot more useful if it was when the infraction occurred. The message is usually late and provides little feedback for what you did wrong.

Blame that on the marshalls...:p
Doesn't the penalty time start once the message is shown (so no use in serving it before that)

Schnizz58
14-02-2018, 20:58
The infraction is based on gaining time.. so until it has calculated that you have gained time.. see how it works ?

I do. Poorly.

Schnizz58
14-02-2018, 21:01
Blame that on the marshalls...:p
Doesn't the penalty time start once the message is shown (so no use in serving it before that)

I disagree...the sooner the better. If I got the warning right when the imaginary center of my car crossed the fuzzy track limits, I might be better able to avoid the penalties. Sometimes, if you know you went over the line, you can avoid a penalty altogether if you lift and "self-penalize".

fbetes
14-02-2018, 21:10
Please include a timer\countdown in the next patch (slowdown)

There's already a timer when you overtake illegally to an opponent.

Mahjik
14-02-2018, 21:17
That's a good point. However it's still of limited usefulness if it's delayed, especially if the system penalizes you more, the more you wait to serve your time penalty.

The sounds happens as soon as the system has made the determination that you need a penalty/slow down. I don't see how it can be any sooner since just going over the track line isn't automatically grounds for a penalty.

MaXyM
14-02-2018, 22:25
Is it the fact given you by developers or your assumption?

Sometimes it's given a few hundreds meters from the point I came back on track. I really cannot get idea why sometimes penalty can be determined almost immediately while other time it needs more time/distance. Especially in obvious places. I'm far from suspecting SMS for creating some super-sophisticated system of gain recognition with different behaviour on individual places.

Also it's almost a rule, every time the system needs more time to determine the penalty, then penalty is extraordinarily high. Which of course doesn't match the real gain from particular track limits violation.
Sorry to say, but it seems it still doesn't work as should be.

Herege
14-02-2018, 22:57
Sound seems useful to me. I do not like the delay that exists in the information, the moment you commit the fault and the time in which you are aware of that same fault. Processing should be more streamlined

Mad Al
14-02-2018, 23:35
Sound seems useful to me. I do not like the delay that exists in the information, the moment you commit the fault and the time in which you are aware of that same fault. Processing should be more streamlined

Read the posts above..

Schnizz58
14-02-2018, 23:41
The sounds happens as soon as the system has made the determination that you need a penalty/slow down. I don't see how it can be any sooner since just going over the track line isn't automatically grounds for a penalty.

Easy. Change the definition of the sound from "you just got a penalty" to "you just exceeded track limits".

Mad Al
15-02-2018, 00:07
Easy. Change the definition of the sound from "you just got a penalty" to "you just exceeded track limits".

you could exceed limits on every corner in a 20 lap race and not get a single penalty.. and going ping every time would piss people off.

How about you wait till you've tried the patch yourself before jumping to all sorts of conclusions of what should or shouldn't be happening.

Schnizz58
15-02-2018, 00:19
you could exceed limits on every corner in a 20 lap race and not get a single penalty.. and going ping every time would piss people off.
Yeah sort of like when you get a limit violation 3 seconds after it happened and don't know why.

NateDawg
15-02-2018, 00:25
Blame that on the marshalls...:p
Doesn't the penalty time start once the message is shown (so no use in serving it before that)


I disagree...the sooner the better. If I got the warning right when the imaginary center of my car crossed the fuzzy track limits, I might be better able to avoid the penalties. Sometimes, if you know you went over the line, you can avoid a penalty altogether if you lift and "self-penalize".

As stated, the game has to calculate the size of the penalty before it can be confirmed. There is no way around this if you want fair penalties instead of a flat 5 seconds for example.

If you suspect you've exceeded track limits, you can lift off immediately and then the penalty you get, if any, will also be smaller and quicker to serve. Many occasions I have exceeded track limits, coasted/reduced throttle the rest of the corner and not been penalised. You don't have to wait for the penalty message if you know/suspect you've exceeded track limits. If you've put in more than 20 hours in to the game, you will start to be better at knowing the track limits and when you've exceeded. If you still haven't worked it out by then, you are kidding yourself.

That's not to say you won't still get frustrated when it happens though :P

Schnizz58
15-02-2018, 00:27
Easy. Change the definition of the sound from "you just got a penalty" to "you just exceeded track limits".

As stated, the game has to calculate the size of the penalty before it can be confirmed. There is no way around this if you want fair penalties instead of a flat 5 seconds for example.
As stated, the warning doesn't need to be tied to the penalty.

satco1066
15-02-2018, 01:17
precognitive penalty sound :beaten:

cpcdem
15-02-2018, 02:28
I just did some more extensive testing offline, where it is easy to test without bothering others :) and I think the time gained calculation system now is pretty good. I got used to how much time it expects us to slowdown and it's reasonable indeed now. The only problem is the missing of an indication of how much we must slow down...

I realized you can now slowdown just a little bit after a minor off moment and then go back on throttle. The slowdown still shows for a couple seconds or so, but eventually disappears, at the moment I guess the system calculates that the necessary time has been given back. I think we will soon be able to tell quickly how much we need to go off throttle, but, yeah some indication would be great help!

Edit: Have done very few offline races, but during testing I raced the AI a bit. Big kudos to the team for a fantastic job they've done on it, personally I have not seen such good AI in any other racing game. I've read that they are inconsistent in speed between tracks and conditions, but guys, this is adjustable, the most important thing is that they are racing so well!

NateDawg
15-02-2018, 04:20
As stated, the warning doesn't need to be tied to the penalty.

True, but i'd soon get sick of hearing it buzz at me every time I left the track. Tbh I don't see the point of the sound at all, but I guess others might. If I think I've left the track, I will just check the corner of the screen for a penalty.

Konan
15-02-2018, 06:14
True, but i'd soon get sick of hearing it buzz at me every time I left the track. Tbh I don't see the point of the sound at all, but I guess others might. If I think I've left the track, I will just check the corner of the screen for a penalty.

That's what i do but it's happened before when i thought i didn't exceed track limits when i did and saw the message by accident...so a "ping" is real handy in those situations.

Tar Heel
15-02-2018, 06:33
That's what i do but it's happened before when i thought i didn't exceed track limits when i did and saw the message by accident...so a "ping" is real handy in those situations.

I'm having a hard time understanding how this is such a hot topic lol. Like of all things to complain about an audible sound that aids you if you dont see the message is something worth complaining about?

I get wanting a timer on the penalty, but the sound is an issue? SMH

ATSS
15-02-2018, 07:08
Its much better than was at 1.3.

PoL
15-02-2018, 08:02
Please include a timer\countdown in the next patch (slowdown)

There's already a timer when you overtake illegally to an opponent.

I agree this would be a worthwhile enhancement, but I feel more players will start to exploit the penalty times on certain tracks/corners once they have 'figured out the timing' of the penalties. For example one kind of exploit was Monza turn 1 - this guy just went straight through the styrofoam markers while I went through turns 1 and 2 like a human being. In this case instead of getting the time penalty AND the position penalty for overtaking me - he only received the 'give back the position you bafoon' penalty and didnt serve the slow down penalty for the rest of that lap (as i flashed lights at him from his bootlid)

MANIAC!

Dave White
15-02-2018, 08:21
I'd like a notification that I exceeded track limits immediately (sound or visual, I don't care) - sometimes I feel I hit the limit perfectly but I may have actually been over by a centimeter or whatever. That way I can make a small lift straight away and avoid the major slowdown that I would get several seconds later which would then cause me to lose a significant amount of time (and often several places in a close race).

I'm not going to lift every time I'm anywhere near the limit "just in case", but if I know I'm over the limit I lift straight away to avoid the heavy penalty for waiting for the slowdown message to appear.

I'm fine with not getting a countdown of how much time to give up at this point (because the game may not be able to calculate that until later), just an 'exceeded limits' warning, but once the slowdown warning (if we wait for that) has appeared it should really tell us how much time we need to give up.

PoL
15-02-2018, 09:14
I'm fine with not getting a countdown of how much time to give up at this point (because the game may not be able to calculate that until later), just an 'exceeded limits' warning, but once the slowdown warning (if we wait for that) has appeared it should really tell us how much time we need to give up.

For reference, I played F12017 (before PC2 was released :)) and found that they use a penalty system where if you exceed track limits continuously then you get a time penalty at the end of the race or a drive through if you persist.
This actually worked surprisingly well and was fairly lenient if you had to lift-off the throttle while exceeding. It didn't always work in online lobbies because people would take the cheating penalty on the knuckles of 2/5/10 seconds once they rip a gap big enough to compensate over the next 10 laps. The system took a few patches to iron out the internal rules, but also started with generally a more strict penalty system and loosened it within a few months of the initial release.

Even though that's the simulated steward-based penalty system of F1 irl, simulating it proved to be challenging. I don't suggest that SMS change anything here to make it more like F1 from codemasters (please dont) - my main point is that it might very well be intentional rather than development/bug-related, because it can be a good way to discipline drivers/players if the rules are exaggerated (stricter) on first releases.

This is my opinion, thus I am prepared for the inevitable criticism from the purists.

PoL
15-02-2018, 09:15
Its much better than was at 1.3.

Yes it is!
More lenient i would say.

OddTimer
15-02-2018, 09:15
much better in my opinion. never noticed the sound though, are you supposed to turn that on in audio?

Jonyvf
15-02-2018, 10:01
Now that the penalty system seems good they need to adjust the colision system for better colisions judgement :D

Konan
15-02-2018, 10:09
Now that the penalty system seems good they need to adjust the colision system for better colisions judgement :D

Well...IRL,it's sometimes hard to judge if a racer braked too early causing the follower to slam into him or the follower braking too late causing a collision...
Imagine how hard it must be to program something like that into a game...:cool:
And that's only one example...

MaXyM
15-02-2018, 10:13
That's what i do but it's happened before when i thought i didn't exceed track limits when i did and saw the message by accident...so a "ping" is real handy in those situations.

So maybe there should be 2 messages/sound notifications: one for exceeding track limits (pending penalty analysis) and another if driver is requested to slow down.
If someone is going to be annoyed with the first one, it might help him to not go off the track ;)

And also, what is even more important: "laziness of marshals" (time needed to determine penalty) should NOT affect penalty size. I still have a feeling it does.

BTW: I never missed penalty message. On monitor it's even harder to miss it. So really don't know what are you guys talking about. This yellow message was so distinct, only blind had no noticed this.

Daynja
15-02-2018, 10:39
Its definitely better but it is still detecting/prioritising cuts rather than time gains.

You can come off from over doing it or perhaps being knocked off, go on to grass the car is unstable and unable to push due to the tyres having no grip on non solid ground and must slow down of its own accord or be going off over a corner with bumpy grass section in which you must brake or the car will spin, yet even though you came off and your time loss is quite obvious it still can throw a penalty at you when you get back on ( unless you really had to come to a halt) because it detects a cut despite probably already being .5-1.0 down already due to the way you came off and had to jostle the car to not spin.

Most of the cuts now are genuine cuts which is good, but I do not share the stance SMS have that we must slow down very fast on track to get rid of of the warning and that slowing down (easing off) to let others past safely and for your car to still keep a fair bit of momentum , which loses you a second anyway roughly, still means the warning stays/ can stay up for ages.

I wish they would indicate the time gains in a separate UI element and then expect you to give it back over the course of a lap to keep your car (as much as possible) at near race traffic speeds to keep momentum and safety rather than as it is now having randoms in public lobbies mashing their brakes causing accidents , or even in our league races where cars suddenly slow despite the discord warnings and cars attempting to not be off line hazards which is what rapidly slowing cars become aka dangerous and clumsy. It would be better for race flow if you could give it back safely. And then if people still abused and didn't slow down AT ALL, the time gains would tick UPWARDS to the point that after 3 laps (if a 5 lap race) or after a certain penalty tally was achieved, they get a drive through, no ifs no buts, a get into the pits now demand or they suffer a DQ.


I doubt SMS are finished with it though. During WMD 2 you can tell that these guys are busy bodies and they arent satified easily which is good for us as it means that they will keep at it. We will see even more tweaks to the cut detection, AI, live track etc etc over the next few months, these guys are pure savages, they dont stop coding !!!

Jonyvf
15-02-2018, 10:52
Well...IRL,it's sometimes hard to judge if a racer braked too early causing the follower to slam into him or the follower braking too late causing a collision...
Imagine how hard it must be to program something like that into a game...:cool:
And that's only one example...

Yup
I know it´s hard but it´s frustating when we brake and the guy back push us out of the track and we got penalisation
Anyaway great job with the game. In this moment PC2 is a WIN

deluca_pabloj
15-02-2018, 11:27
Yup
I know it´s hard but it´s frustating when we brake and the guy back push us out of the track and we got penalisation
Anyaway great job with the game. In this moment PC2 is a WIN

Patch 1.4 does not improve collision penalization at all?

mister dog
15-02-2018, 11:59
I still think the whole 'slowdown' concept for track limits needs to be ditched in favor of an alternative, it destroys people's flow and it creates weird situations with slowing cars in the middle of the track all of a sudden (imagine the mayhem if this was implemented in real life motorsports).

I'd much prefer a system of warnings and after x amount of warnings a time penalty is added to your race result. Slowdown and hand positions back when you cut a corner on the inside and make a pass that way yes, but for track limits it doesn't work good IMO.

Jonyvf
15-02-2018, 12:07
Patch 1.4 does not improve collision penalization at all?

I´m a PS4 player and not test yet the patch but in the pc notes there´s no reference to the collisition system
So i think no improvement in that area

rich1e I
15-02-2018, 12:29
So maybe there should be 2 messages/sound notifications: one for exceeding track limits (pending penalty analysis) and another if driver is requested to slow down.
If someone is going to be annoyed with the first one, it might help him to not go off the track ;)

And also, what is even more important: "laziness of marshals" (time needed to determine penalty) should NOT affect penalty size. I still have a feeling it does.

BTW: I never missed penalty message. On monitor it's even harder to miss it. So really don't know what are you guys talking about. This yellow message was so distinct, only blind had no noticed this.

There is or was a yellow message?

I really hope Yorkie makes a little tutorial about the penalty system as it is now so we can understand the process a little bit, for instance if the penalty increases the more we wait to serve it. On the other hand maybe SMS doesn't want too much transparency because people always find ways to exploit things. The best way to handle the slow down problem is to add a timer that counts down a few seconds in order to be able to get out of the racing line before slowing down.

Ofnir4
15-02-2018, 13:10
Imagine if the IRS (or what serves as the IRS where you live) came after you for tax evasion, "hey, you owe us money", The sum owned is between $0.99 and $10,000 but for reasons of states we aren't allowed to tell you how much. So pay pack ! In case you paid us back too much, we'll keep the change, in case you underpay, we'll penalize you to 3 or 4 times the amount you owed and give you a stern warning, that will teach you.

MaXyM
15-02-2018, 13:18
There is or was a yellow message?

I am/I was sure some of those off-track messages was/are yellow (shown over yellow background). But I also noticed some recent message is gray



I really hope Yorkie makes a little tutorial about the penalty system as it is now so we can understand the process a little bit, for instance if the penalty increases the more we wait to serve it. On the other hand maybe SMS doesn't want too much transparency because people always find ways to exploit things. The best way to handle the slow down problem is to add a timer that counts down a few seconds in order to be able to get out of the racing line before slowing down.

I would say, it doesn't have to be counter literally, because the penalty is probably dynamic, depending on your speed, which turns into gain loss. It could be some representation of progress of executing penalty. It might be progress indicator, for example progress bar. Then it's on a driver how to execute the penalty: slowing down slowly, or hit brakes to satisfy the system quicker, then being able to accelerate earlier.

rich1e I
15-02-2018, 13:32
I am/I was sure some of those off-track messages was/are yellow (shown over yellow background). But I also noticed some recent message is gray



I would say, it doesn't have to be counter literally, because the penalty is probably dynamic, depending on your speed, which turns into gain loss. It could be some representation of progress of executing penalty. It might be progress indicator, for example progress bar. Then it's on a driver how to execute the penalty: slowing down slowly, or hit brakes to satisfy the system quicker, then being able to accelerate earlier.

I'm pretty sure the slow down message has been grey since launch because when I read that a sound was going to be added to the message I wondered why not make the message yellow or red, some color that easily catches your attention.
I think many different people will always complain about many different things, so it doesn't really matter what SMS come up with in terms of penalty system. One thing is for sure, it never will be a perfect system where 100% of the time the right 'decision' is made.

Bealdor
15-02-2018, 13:37
Slow down warning was always grey. The yellow one is for invalidated lap times.

rich1e I
15-02-2018, 13:44
I thought he was talking about the slow down message, but yeah also the lap invalidation is part of the penalty system

MaXyM
15-02-2018, 14:12
Yes, it's possible that I was wrong about colors. Most time I go off track is during private practice sessions, where slow down message is never shown. It made me concluded all off-track related messages are yellow.

I know the system will never be perfect. But:
1. we need to know the place we went off track. PC2 messaging system doesn't give a cue about it. Sometimes CrewChief helps with this.
2. the penalty size should not be dependent on time needed to penalty evaluation (it seems how it works right now).
3. as mentioned before, some indicator how much penalty left would be nice addition

cpcdem
15-02-2018, 15:17
BTW: I never missed penalty message. On monitor it's even harder to miss it. So really don't know what are you guys talking about. This yellow message was so distinct, only blind had no noticed this.

Often the message was "covered" by some other message, so it was not visible. One very typical example was when receiving a slowdown messages in the final moments on qualifying (after regular time was over), in this case the "Qualifying ending" (or similar) message was shown in the same place with the slowdown message and it was hiding it. That was happening every single time in this scenario. Similar to last moments of a race.

I guess for that reason in patch 4 they made it possible to adjust the positions where different messages appear on screen. And I assume the sound was added as an extra measure to make absolutely sure the message is shown/heard...

blackduckrun
15-02-2018, 15:25
The infraction is based on gaining time.. so until it has calculated that you have gained time.. see how it works ?

This is nice in theory, and perhaps this is even how it is intended to work, but this is not always how it plays out. I've gotten a penalty at Laguna Seca for going wide into the dirt on the turn before going up the hill to the kink before the corkscrew, clearly loosing at least half a second plus momentum lost up the hill, and then gotten a slow down penalty that took a third of a lap or so to get rid of. But that was patch 3, maybe it's a kink they have ironed out in patch 4, but from what I've read in this thread it seems like it's the same system, just less severe. I should get some racing in tonight so I can better see for myself what it's like.

As others have mentioned, drive through penalties seem like the best way to enforce track cutting. I personally think V8 Supercars is a great model for the inspiration of rules and regulations as they seem to have gotten things more right than any other car racing series on the planet. They give out unsportsmanlike behavior warnings (which includes track cuts) and after so many, your fourth I think, you get a drive through (or time added on if it's the last lap of the race). Not sure what happens if they go back out and abuse the track limits again as it very rarely happens that anyone ever gets their 4th for a penalty, but a reset doesn't seem too unreasonable. Right now we get an ambiguous slow down which may result in a time added on penalty to boot if not executed properly. Having a warning system allows a person to gauge how aggressive they care to be as the counter goes up, and should allow mistakes by the system to not always affect a persons race.

Schnizz58
15-02-2018, 16:03
This is nice in theory, and perhaps this is even how it is intended to work, but this is not always how it plays out. I've gotten a penalty at Laguna Seca for going wide into the dirt on the turn before going up the hill to the kink before the corkscrew, clearly loosing at least half a second plus momentum lost up the hill, and then gotten a slow down penalty that took a third of a lap or so to get rid of. But that was patch 3, maybe it's a kink they have ironed out in patch 4, but from what I've read in this thread it seems like it's the same system, just less severe. I should get some racing in tonight so I can better see for myself what it's like.
Agreed. Let us know your results. Thanks!


As others have mentioned, drive through penalties seem like the best way to enforce track cutting. I personally think V8 Supercars is a great model for the inspiration of rules and regulations as they seem to have gotten things more right than any other car racing series on the planet. They give out unsportsmanlike behavior warnings (which includes track cuts) and after so many, your fourth I think, you get a drive through (or time added on if it's the last lap of the race). Not sure what happens if they go back out and abuse the track limits again as it very rarely happens that anyone ever gets their 4th for a penalty, but a reset doesn't seem too unreasonable. Right now we get an ambiguous slow down which may result in a time added on penalty to boot if not executed properly. Having a warning system allows a person to gauge how aggressive they care to be as the counter goes up, and should allow mistakes by the system to not always affect a persons race.
Most forms of racing use something similar. It takes a pattern of abuse before a warning is issued and then more violations before receiving a penalty. But then the penalty is pretty harsh. PC1 actually did it better I think. IIRC, you got up to 10 violations before a penalty was handed out. But when you did get a penalty it was a DQ.

satco1066
15-02-2018, 23:56
Agreed. Let us know your results. Thanks!


Most forms of racing use something similar. It takes a pattern of abuse before a warning is issued and then more violations before receiving a penalty. But then the penalty is pretty harsh. PC1 actually did it better I think. IIRC, you got up to 10 violations before a penalty was handed out. But when you did get a penalty it was a DQ.

that might be right for sprints with a few laps.
But for races longer than 1 hour we had to switch the flags off in PC1, because more than half the field got DQed.
In our amateur and fun race league we race 1 race per week since start of PC1 in 2015 between 1h and 3h's.
Thats why the current penalty system is way better, though not perfect.

iggy
16-02-2018, 21:06
Got v1.4 on PS4 now... penelties for minor off track are significantly less severe. In a one hour offline race, I had 3 minor errors cutting corners a tiny bit too much... each time the penalty was over before I really puposlely slowed... I very much like this change.

Chawabax
16-02-2018, 21:39
Got v1.4 on PS4 now... penelties for minor off track are significantly less severe.

same for me, good (racing in Le mans GT1 series, this morning before the patch and this night after the patch)


In a one hour offline race I had 3 minor errors cutting corners a tiny bit too much... each time the penalty was over before I really puposlely slowed...

same for me, even going a little bit wide on some fast corners.... is it really good? why giving me the advice to slow down but not a penalty if I do not purposlely slow down?

Then I tried to do bad things, cutting corners, cutting chicanes.... I was not able to receive a penalty even if I had the advice to slow down (I did not, going faster and faster, even not changing gear to avoid my speed to decrease)

No penalty at all, not in che HUD, not in the final results :cool:

Is there something I'm missing? (some new session parameter ?)

iggy
16-02-2018, 23:02
I assumed my infractions were very minor and my normal driving relatively slow, figured it assumed that I did slow down... ( I may have slowed just a tiny bit)

I haven't tried to blatantly cut corners yet...

iggy
17-02-2018, 00:54
Ah... I did start to purposely cut some corners and I'll only say that it looks like you can really push hard now without too much fear of the dreaded slowdown... in fact as it is now, if you were like me and really drove conservatively within track boundaries your going to need to start pushing the boundaries harder or your going to leave a lot of time on the track.

Chawabax
17-02-2018, 07:29
... in fact as it is now, if you were like me and really drove conservatively within track boundaries your going to need to start pushing the boundaries harder or your going to leave a lot of time on the track.

I was.... and I liked a lot :(

But... pushing the boundaries harder is one thing, cutting because no penalties at all is another

BTW did you received some penalties?

I will try today driving on other tracks to check this

iggy
17-02-2018, 12:00
I was.... and I liked a lot :(

But... pushing the boundaries harder is one thing, cutting because no penalties at all is another

BTW did you received some penalties?

I will try today driving on other tracks to check this
No, so far I have not received an actual penalty, I've always been able to slow enough, without actually having to slam on the brakes to avoid a penalty.

Konan
17-02-2018, 12:02
I had one a couple of times but managed to lose it by slightly lifting off...so less severe than it was before.

bazzalaar
17-02-2018, 12:16
I like the new BEEP when you get a penalty. Had a weird one myself last night whilst rain at Imola. Ran over a kerb and shortly after I got two messages, side by side at the top of the screen. "2 second penalty for track limits" and next to it "First warning for track limits" both appeared at the same time.

I also got a penalty at spa. I don't have a handbrake assigned. On the start line the car started to roll backwards and I got a Drive Through penalty...

iggy
17-02-2018, 13:42
I did finally get a penalty, it was during qualifying and lost the scoring of that lap. I also noticed if you cut the last corner during qualifying you don't get a chance to slow, it just invalidates the current and next lap... (at least at Red Bull Ring GP ).

I've had some of the best racing ever since v1.4 patch... as far as I'm concerned, I love the new slow down scheme.

blackduckrun
17-02-2018, 14:42
I had a wonky penalty at Sakkito when I slid wide on the exit of Degner 1, pretty clumsy and probably a loss of time, that left me with +3 seconds on my lap time and almost crashing the guy coming up behind me when I slowed down to serve. Extra burn as the guy in front of me was also wide but did not seem to have to slow down. The three or 4 other slips ups that I had which caused penalties and may have actually gained me a bit were much less severe.

I also like the beep. Would be nice if we had a few tones to choose from, including none for those who do not like it.

Chawabax
17-02-2018, 19:26
Take a look at this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ9kfyiKAE4

Offline race against IA
Le Mans (2 laps)
GT1
PS4 after patch 4.0

Sorry if in italian.

"Rallenta per evitare una penalità dei giudici di gara" => "Slow down to avoid penalty"

I did not, but no penalty for me many times
Even cutting completely the final chicane was useless to receive a penalty!
Only once (2s, I knew the game is not happy if you cut that corner too much)
At the end 34s penalty for... don't know, maybe 30 because of illegal overtake and 4 because of exceeding trck limits.

P.S: this is not my usual way of driving... I was trying to receive penalties :D:D:D

Don't understand the logic of these penalties.

iggy
17-02-2018, 22:30
Your right... it's way to easy to cut the track at Lemans now, probably other tracks as well.

Last week I was running 4:33 or so in a Jaguar E-type vintage GTA... I just ran 4:28 by cutting corners...

There's a known issue with the old penalty system were it seems each new off track seems to reset the penalty clock. I wonder if the old issue combined with the new system is compounding the ability to exploit these off track issues.

One thing is for sure... this new penalty system needs some refinement.

zedeeyen
17-02-2018, 22:44
It's really oddly inconsistent. I had a couple of races ruined tonight because I tried to slow after a tiny little mistake that gained no time all, and it took foreeeeeeeeveer to clear the penalty - I lost about 10 seconds and 5 places for going 1mm over the line and gaining nothing.

I was so annoyed I just decided to take the penalties from then on, and lo' and behold, every time I got a penalty I ignored it without lifting and it disappeared on its own without me incurring anything, even when I totally deserved it and did gain time.

Chawabax
17-02-2018, 22:50
There's a known issue with the old penalty system were it seems each new off track seems to reset the penalty clock. I wonder if the old issue combined with the new system is compounding the ability to exploit these off track issues..

Issue is still here, with the new patch

Something resets the penalty clock... if the penalty advice is visible for more than 4-5 s you are sure you will receive a true penalty (if not slowing down).
Sometimes seems even 1 gear up (or down) is the resetting event, sometimes not... I was not able to find a general rule

Chawabax
18-02-2018, 21:29
Tested this NO PENALTY "bug" on more tracks.
Using GT1 or GT3 cars
Race online/offline, NO career

-) Le Mans: lot of penalty advices but able to receive a penalty only cutting the last corner before the long straight, able to cut the final chicane without any penalty (advice to slow down, but not penalty if not slowing down)
-) Brno: lot of penalty advices but able to receive a penalty only cutting one corner (in the middle of the track, don't remember which one)
-) Hockenheim classic: some penalty advices but NOT able to receive a penalty even cutting the first chicane or crossing the line at the pit exit
-) COTA: lot of penalty advices but NOT able to receive a penalty even cutting completely 3,4,5 corners ("S" corners close after the finish line)... this is crazy
-) Laguna Seca: some penalty advices but NOT able to receive a penalty cutting the corkscrew (I know I was in the sand but I do really gained time)
-) Daytona: my friend tested it, no specific data but he found the same issue

So... every track I'm testing the same result:
-) penalty detecting system is working, more permissive than before, and I like it
-) slow down advice is working, you can see it and you can hear the new beep (useful)
-) except in rare cases, the penalty is not given even if the driver is not slowing down at all

iggy
19-02-2018, 11:08
Yeah, it's odd. At fuji, there are a couple spots that seem way to easy to get warning, I did get one 1 second penalty and I don't really even know where I wentered off. But mostly the warnings just go away without really slowing

Biddrace
20-02-2018, 16:38
other Test
The mans / Online
5 lap
no sign of penalty

Can someone tell us if it's a known problem?
Thank you


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI-leGY9KH0

iggy
20-02-2018, 17:38
It's known to you... known to me... known to Chawabax... It's unclear if SMS has acknowledged the problem yet. ( I suspect they've seen or at least heard something about it. )

It's a little unclear how much this is related to Le Mans in particular , vs something that's more wide spread... Chawabax has indicated he's seen similar issues at several other tracks.. To me at least, it's a bit of a mystery as to what's likely to be causing it... I know for sure at some tracks I've been racing at such as Fuji and Sonoma , it's fairly easy to get a penalty...

Konan
20-02-2018, 18:48
The issue has been reported yes...

Chawabax
20-02-2018, 20:19
It's a little unclear how much this is related to Le Mans in particular , vs something that's more wide spread...

take a look at: Hockenheim Classic, COTA, Nurb GP, Laguna Seca, Spa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6L8dOTvOZI

Unfortunately this "bug" is not LeMans related... it is something common in every track.
I call it bug because in Time trial and Qualifying sessions the penalty system works, lap time is correctly invalidated.
It happens only during race session

rich1e I
20-02-2018, 20:58
This is not good.

Schnizz58
20-02-2018, 21:03
take a look at: Hockenheim Classic, COTA, Nurb GP, Laguna Seca, Spa
Maybe the system is taking pity on you because you're so far behind. :D

The first one (Hock) shouldn't have been a penalty. You still had two tires on the track.
You actually did get a 2 second penalty for cutting the chicane at Nurb GP.
There was one or two where it seemed like you weren't going as fast as you could after the track cut so maybe the penalty system took that as penance.
The rest, seems like you should have been penalized for those.

M4MKey
20-02-2018, 21:06
He wasn't on the track at all at Hockenheim...
And about the Nurb, he already had 2seconds penalty before the cut. :D

Schnizz58
20-02-2018, 21:09
He wasn't on the track at all at Hockenheim...

0:28 - He had two wheels on the grass and two on the track.

M4MKey
20-02-2018, 21:09
Can't you see that it's not the proper piece of tarmac ?

Chawabax
20-02-2018, 21:12
Maybe the system is taking pity on you because you're so far behind. :D

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


The first one (Hock) shouldn't have been a penalty. You still had two tires on the track.
This is not true... maybe you don't know well the track: there are 2 ways at the first chicane... the good one on the left, and the shortcut on the right (faster way). I did the shorcut :rolleyes:


You actually did get a 2 second penalty for cutting the chicane at Nurb GP.
2 seconds penalty are there from the previous lap when I tried to cut completely the chicane and I was penlized. When cutting half chicane I was not penalized

Schnizz58
20-02-2018, 21:13
Can't you see that it's not the proper piece of tarmac ?

Derp....I do now.

Mahjik
20-02-2018, 21:58
This is not good.

It just basically the same way it was before 1.3.

fbetes
20-02-2018, 22:05
The question is: if in PC version the penalty system is working fine, why is this issue just in console version?

rich1e I
20-02-2018, 22:19
It just basically the same way it was before 1.3.

Yeah, but that was the reason why it needed to be reworked. The following was recorded on October 26th last year. This guy took me out in the last lap of a 20 minutes race and took 2nd place. It makes racing a joke if this is possible.

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/rich1e%20I/video/39061354

cpcdem
20-02-2018, 22:39
The question is: if in PC version the penalty system is working fine, why is this issue just in console version?

It's the same issue in PC, we (at least I) had not realized yet that we can many times just ignore the slowdown warning. I agree, it's not good, most importantly it is not consistent, sometimes you can completely ignore the warning and get away, some times not. A countdown showing how much we need to slowdown would have been extremely helpful...

FxUK
20-02-2018, 22:56
I didn't spend too much time watching.. but I did notice you basically holding back quite a bit initially. Perhaps this is throwing it off when trying to determine if you gained time or not.. I'm not sure.
I know I have received penalties when I expected them, but also got away with one or two. However, with those I usually find my lap time was down on the prior one, so I thought that perhaps the segments used to determine if time had been gained had increased quite a bit.

Does it behave the same if you push it hard from the start, as in can you get new personal best lap times?

Or, to put it another way... tracks I am quite good / consistent on, if I do cut and don't adhere to a slow down, I pretty much always get a penalty.
Tracks I have either never raced on (there was one or two) I found that I could "almost" get away with murder, initially at least. Once I started setting consistent times, it seemed harder to control the slow downs.

To be honest though, I'm just wild guessing.. I haven't tried any of it, other than racing in my usual way, which is doing my utmost to avoid penalties & collisions whilst still trying to come second from last :P

Chawabax
20-02-2018, 23:13
I didn't spend too much time watching.. but I did notice you basically holding back quite a bit initially. Perhaps this is throwing it off when trying to determine if you gained time or not.. I'm not sure.
I know I have received penalties when I expected them, but also got away with one or two. However, with those I usually find my lap time was down on the prior one, so I thought that perhaps the segments used to determine if time had been gained had increased quite a bit.

Does it behave the same if you push it hard from the start, as in can you get new personal best lap times?

Take a look at my previous video in Le Mans (you can find it on my channel): 2 laps. Second lap I was pushing (not so hard, still looking for a penalty :o )
I can tell you, at least for Le Mans, that the penalty system is working in the same way if you are pushing and if you are not. In Le Mans there is only one corner you can not cut, the last before the main straight... the rest you can cut everything
COTA: I was maybe 5s back but I was able to catch other cars after 5 corners (cutting). Maybe penalty calculation system was confused by my way of driving... but it is still unfair, not correct, wrong.


To be honest though, I'm just wild guessing.. I haven't tried any of it, other than racing in my usual way, which is doing my utmost to avoid penalties & collisions whilst still trying to come second from last :P

I suppose.... this is what is happening to PJC2 players: they are happy for the new penalty detecting system (you can have more fun driving) but they are used to drive clean and slow down when they are told to do so... they simply did not realized they are allowed not to do so.
Maybe even patch testers were dazzled by the new system :D

FxUK
20-02-2018, 23:25
I suppose.... this is what is happening to PJC2 players: they are happy for the new penalty detecting system (you can have more fun driving) but they are used to drive clean and slow down when they are told to do so... they simply did not realized they are allowed not to do so.
Maybe even patch testers were dazzled by the new system :D

I have been driving as if it was 1.3 penalty system still, so yeah quite possibly. Well, cpcdem confirms this too, that he has only just realised, so I think you might be right.
Also, +100000000 for a countdown or better indication of how to serve the slow down.

MortICi
21-02-2018, 04:12
I have been driving as if it was 1.3 penalty system still, so yeah quite possibly. Well, cpcdem confirms this too, that he has only just realised, so I think you might be right.
Also, +100000000 for a countdown or better indication of how to serve the slow down.

There are still some tracks that have too heavy of a penalty and give it to easily for what should be fair play. Brands hatch being one of them, on the Indy circuit going wide on T3 just a bit too much insta slow down, and it basically requires you to give a position.

On the full circuit, the 90 degree turn after the long straight, if you run wide a bit more than 50% of the car also an insane slow down penalty.

Its a hit or miss for now, so i just simply disabled penalties for now as i don't intend to cheat anyway, and the AI doing the same wide move don't slow down or receive penalty anyway so its just punishing the player at this point.

cpcdem
21-02-2018, 04:21
I think unfortunately it's the time gained/lost/given back detection system, it isn't working properly, it's very inconsistent. I'm sure it is anyway extremely difficult to implement this properly, and it probably needs a lot of calibration, testing, calibration again, more testing etc. In my opinion the best short term solution would be to give us a controllable level of system harshness, from 1 to 10 let's say, which we can play with and decide ourselves what level we think is more appropriate for offline and online races.

For time trial, the detection works nicely, apart from the "invalidate next lap 5 corners before the finish line" thing.

MortICi
21-02-2018, 05:08
I think unfortunately it's the time gained/lost/given back detection system, it isn't working properly, it's very inconsistent. I'm sure it is anyway extremely difficult to implement this properly, and it probably needs a lot of calibration, testing, calibration again, more testing etc. In my opinion the best short term solution would be to give us a controllable level of system harshness, from 1 to 10 let's say, which we can play with and decide ourselves what level we think is more appropriate for offline and online races.

For time trial, the detection works nicely, apart from the "invalidate next lap 5 corners before the finish line" thing.

Yeah i agree with you it needs to be worked out then a track by track test/verification needs to happen.

Personally i never had a problem with 1.0/1.1/1.2 system after 1.3 it just went freaking insane with handing out insane times for minor infractions. Before it was a simple lift and not even full lift just like 30% for a brief moment or two, now it still seems like in some areas you basically crawl or give a position or two before it dismisses the penalty. Heck for all we know the icon/notification is the problem and the penalty has been served its just not disappearing...

The problem still remains though that AI can run wide in the same areas but doesn't get or serve the same type of penalty as the player...

rich1e I
21-02-2018, 13:15
Yeah i agree with you it needs to be worked out then a track by track test/verification needs to happen.

Personally i never had a problem with 1.0/1.1/1.2 system after 1.3 it just went freaking insane with handing out insane times for minor infractions. Before it was a simple lift and not even full lift just like 30% for a brief moment or two, now it still seems like in some areas you basically crawl or give a position or two before it dismisses the penalty. Heck for all we know the icon/notification is the problem and the penalty has been served its just not disappearing...

The problem still remains though that AI can run wide in the same areas but doesn't get or serve the same type of penalty as the player...

Before 1.3. the penalty system was pretty much useless and consisted in a message popping up and disappearing again. No time penalties for ignoring the slow down and no drive throughs. I think this is not very "motorsport" and makes online just terrible.
It's not entirely proven but i think it looks like the penalties were not harsh. You just had to slow down right after the message popped up. The more you waited the more you had to slow down. People were reporting they had to stop in the middle of the track to serve the penalty. I've never experienced something like that.
Track limits are well defined this time, and maybe for the first time in sim racing (don't know about iRacing) they were consequently enforced in 1.3. Just as it should be. I don't know what happened now with the latest patch but it seems MP will be a joke again.

iggy
21-02-2018, 13:25
My understanding of how it's supposed to work... The programing has some way to calculate the fastest way around any given part of the track and then compares your time through that part of the track... if you've went faster than should be possible , you get the slowdown message, and then you need to 'slow' to give back a amount of time that's proportional to how much time you'd theoretically gained. It has been my understanding that the calculation for 'fastest way around' that part of the track, is not based on your own personal ability, but on some best case ability of that class of vehicle.

So, if my understanding of it is correct... a slow driver could go off track much more and never get penalized... as you get closer and closer to the theoretical maximum race pace, your off track excursions are more likely to give warning/slow down. If this is close to being accurate, it may very well give bad drivers a false sense of where the actual boundaries of the track limits are.

I do agree that the calculations required and methods that must be used to figure it all out are sort of mind boggling... and it seems there's something they've gotten wrong, or haven't accounted for yet..

sas5320
21-02-2018, 13:29
Its a hit or miss for now, so i just simply disabled penalties for now as i don't intend to cheat anyway, and the AI doing the same wide move don't slow down or receive penalty anyway so its just punishing the player at this point.
^yes, good idea. For offline playing, just disable penalties if you are basically an honest racer anyway. The penalty system does not add much to the gameplay experience for offline/AI play, the player is it an unnatural disadvantage here.


The problem still remains though that AI can run wide in the same areas but doesn't get or serve the same type of penalty as the player...
^and i think it will remain this way for this game since it has for the previous SMS games. AI is on a different (or zero) penalty system than the player. Sometimes, it seems they're even on a different weather system in some cases. So again, use penalties and weather carefully/thoughtfully for offline gameplay. Maybe pcars3 the AI will subject to same penalty/weather as the player or at least some better illusion of it.

Chawabax
21-02-2018, 13:31
Strange thing is that in Qualifying session your laptime is immediately canceled after a slow down warning. So... it works!
In race session there must be something wrong with the slow down calculation or maybe something is resetting the countdown

clanky
21-02-2018, 14:32
Very useful in VR - the message is very easy to miss there :)

I was going to say this, it's a welcomed thing.. but probably should allow an option to turn it off. I missed a lot of slow downs just because I wasn't looking up to see the message.

shiftee
21-02-2018, 15:37
It's the same issue in PC, we (at least I) had not realized yet that we can many times just ignore the slowdown warning. I agree, it's not good, most importantly it is not consistent, sometimes you can completely ignore the warning and get away, some times not. A countdown showing how much we need to slowdown would have been extremely helpful...

wow I wish I had not come into this thread, I also did not realize the slow warnings could be ignored. I am going to forget I ever saw this and slowly back out of here...3...2...1...

Even though I am an offline driver, I prefer to have rules turned on to keep me honest (still have some bad habits left over from my console forza days to fully eradicate). So I always adhere to the slow down warnings, although I get them very rarely now, but love the new improved track limits in 1.4 - I can finally drive like the AI does and not get penalized, so much more fun!

Schnizz58
21-02-2018, 15:43
My understanding of how it's supposed to work... The programing has some way to calculate the fastest way around any given part of the track and then compares your time through that part of the track... if you've went faster than should be possible , you get the slowdown message, and then you need to 'slow' to give back a amount of time that's proportional to how much time you'd theoretically gained. It has been my understanding that the calculation for 'fastest way around' that part of the track, is not based on your own personal ability, but on some best case ability of that class of vehicle.
I don't think this is correct...at least I hope not.

And this is the reason...


So, if my understanding of it is correct... a slow driver could go off track much more and never get penalized... as you get closer and closer to the theoretical maximum race pace, your off track excursions are more likely to give warning/slow down. If this is close to being accurate, it may very well give bad drivers a false sense of where the actual boundaries of the track limits are.

iggy
22-02-2018, 17:42
I'm pretty sure it is correct... or at least i'm pretty sure that the majority of it is correct and I do hope someone would point out where I might have it wrong.

And for Shiftee - I too really like to run within the actual track boundaries, especially when practicing. Ideally, I'd like the option to warn me ever single time I just barely leave the actual boundaries ... not necessariallly get penalized every single time, but i'd like to get a beep or something that told me whenever I drove outside the track, not just when I'd exceeded some limit that actually allowed me to improve my lap time. But anyway, I do also like to race hard, and there were at times with the old system that it seemed too hard to race really hard when around others.... so I did like that they were going to try and tweak the rules a bit... Now , if they just sort out whatever bug that seems to slipped it's way into the current penalty system.

MaXyM
22-02-2018, 19:59
mabe because every driver has own pace fighting against other drivers with similar one. Regardless the pace he can get unfair advantage against other drivers with similar pace.
If someone is slower 3 secs than a leader, it cannot be a reason to not penalize him, or penalize him less.

Actually I could try to defense a thesis that slower driver gets even more advantage by running off track than faster one

mister dog
22-02-2018, 21:58
So apart from scrapping slow downs for track cuts entirely, I would really appreciate it if the 'next lap invalidated' penalty is tweaked so it only starts from the last corner (or the one before). Those two changes would alleviate a lot of frustration I think.

Raklodder
07-05-2018, 11:12
The infractions dealt on contact needs to be much more severe, just to keep players from wanting to do harm and/or retaliate and hitting another driver in the process.

Perhaps you could implement a system, where if you hit multiple cars within a given time frame, your infractions will get incrementally higher and/or multiplied.

rich1e I
07-05-2018, 12:22
Penalty system is VERY lenient now. Guy in front extends the hell out of the track, ignores slow downs and goes on and gets away with it. Racing becomes a joke. Getting away with ignoring penalties has nothing to do with fairness. Maybe remove track limits so the rules are clear but what's the point in having rules for fairness when infractions aren't sanctioned?

cpcdem
07-05-2018, 13:32
Penalty system is VERY lenient now. Guy in front extends the hell out of the track, ignores slow downs and goes on and gets away with it. Racing becomes a joke. Getting away with ignoring penalties has nothing to do with fairness. Maybe remove track limits so the rules are clear but what's the point in having rules for fairness when infractions aren't sanctioned?

In some cases it is indeed very lenient and in other cases still you get to slowdown for an eternity to get rid of the slowdown message for just a very tiny off road moment that gained you nothing, and at the end you might still get a penalty. And there's still the problem you still have absolutely no idea for how long you need to further slowdown...

I think the system still needs a lot of calibration, but at least it allows us to race now, not like a few months ago when it was completely ruining races. About people who find exploits and completely cut the track and go unpunished, I think they need to get kicked from the race when possible. Good hosts do that already.

Mahjik
07-05-2018, 13:42
If it's overly strict, users complain. If it's not overly strict, users complain... ;)

Unfortunately, unless the users take it seriously, there will always be some to find exploits and use them. As cpcdem mentioned, those will be few and the same drivers each time so just start booting them when you see them. Either they will stop their behavior, or stop playing. Either way, everyone else wins.

rich1e I
07-05-2018, 13:47
In some cases it is indeed very lenient and in other cases still you get to slowdown for an eternity to get rid of the slowdown message for just a very tiny off road moment that gained you nothing, and at the end you might still get a penalty. And there's still the problem you still have absolutely no idea for how long you need to further slowdown...

I think the system still needs a lot of calibration, but at least it allows us to race now, not like a few months ago when it was completely ruining races. About people who find exploits and completely cut the track and go unpunished, I think they need to get kicked from the race when possible. Good hosts do that already.

It might be different from track to track but I think if you get a slow down for cutting Raidillon at Spa and going wide in the following corners and don't want to slow down at least you should get a few seconds added to your final time. At the moment just nothing happens. Absolute joke in my view.

Edit: @Mahjik Yeah it seems either way there's always someone complaining but at the moment the penalty consists in a ping sound and a message that appears and disappears after a few seconds. No time added, nothing. I think this does not even remotely have something to do with motorsport.

cpcdem
07-05-2018, 14:20
It might be different from track to track but I think if you get a slow down for cutting Raidillon at Spa and going wide in the following corners and don't want to slow down at least you should get a few seconds added to your final time. At the moment just nothing happens. Absolute joke in my view.

I was not aware of that one, but just tested it and you are right, it's not good. This is why I said the system needs a lot of calibration, I think it's the time gaining detection mechanism that needs a lot of improvement, although I can only guess how difficult it is to implement that correctly.

Btw, I still think it's better (or less worse) like that now, compared to what it was before. OK, if someone is a cheater, he can abuse that exploit and go through this corner flat out. This can be dealt with. But what was happening before, is that you were trying to take the corner legally, within the limits of the tracks, but if you got it just very slightly wrong and went 10 cm wide, then you needed to give back 5 seconds or so, completely ruining your race in many cases.



Edit: @Mahjik Yeah it seems either way there's always someone complaining but at the moment the penalty consists in a ping sound and message that appears and disappears after a few seconds. No time added, nothing. I think this does not even remotely have something to do with motorsport.

That's only in some cases. There are other cases where you slowdown and slowdown and slowdown...and still get a penalty! I still think it would be extremely helpful to get some kind of indication of how long we still need to slowdown...

PS. So you're one of those strange guys who like to call corners with their correct names? :)

Ofnir4
07-05-2018, 14:26
That's only in some cases. There are other cases where you slowdown and slowdown and slowdown...and still get a penalty! I still think it would be extremely helpful to get some kind of indication of how long we still need to slowdown...

If the message isn't gone by coasting for a second I just take the penalty and get on with my race. At zolder, on the Villeneuve chicane you could lose 2 to 3 seconds and still have the message.

rich1e I
07-05-2018, 14:42
Btw, I still think it's better (or less worse) like that now, compared to what it was before. OK, if someone is a cheater, he can abuse that exploit and go through this corner flat out. This can be dealt with. But what was happening before, is that you were trying to take the corner legally, within the limits of the tracks, but if you got it just very slightly wrong and went 10 cm wide, then you needed to give back 5 seconds or so, completely ruining your race in many cases.


PS. So you're one of those strange guys who like to call corners with their correct names? :)

I don't know if I made my point clear. The guy in front chose not to slow down (probably because he didn't want lose points :rolleyes:), I understand that. We have a battle a he doesn't want to give up the position. He cuts Raidillon and 100% got a slow down and ignores it. He went wide a few corners before and after that and doesn't even get one single second added? Why not remove slow downs completely at this point if ignoring them makes no difference? It's complete nonsense.
And yes, if corners have names it helps a lot understanding which corner we're talking about :p

cpcdem
07-05-2018, 15:04
I don't know if I made my point clear. The guy in front chose not to slow down (probably because he didn't want lose points :rolleyes:), I understand that. We have a battle a he doesn't want to give up the position. He cuts Raidillon and 100% got a slow down and ignores it. He went wide a few corners before and after that and doesn't even get one single second added? Why not remove slow downs completely at this point if ignoring them makes no difference? It's complete nonsense.

Yeah, I agreed with you, in this particular case it is bad indeed. But it was worse (in the opposite way) before IMO.



And yes, if corners have names it helps a lot understanding which corner we're talking about :p

I meant that while almost everybody (including The Stig himself :)) refers to Raidillon as Eau Rouge, you used the correct name instead :)

Ofnir4
07-05-2018, 15:20
I meant that while almost everybody (including The Stig himself :)) refers to Raidillon as Eau Rouge, you used the correct name instead :)

If you speak french, the complex is "Raidillon de l'eau rouge", a raidillon being a small steep trail. So in english you get "the steep trail of eau rouge". So technically the corner complex is eau rouge, there is no raidillon corner in itself.

Maybe at some point someone translated it as Eau rouge('s) raidillon and then people started thinking it was the combination of corners.

cpcdem
07-05-2018, 15:27
If you speak french, the complex is "Raidillon de l'eau rouge", a raidillon being a small steep trail. So in english you get "the steep trail of eau rouge". So technically the corner complex is eau rouge, there is no raidillon corner in itself.

Maybe at some point someone translated it as Eau rouge('s) raidillon and then people started thinking it was the combination of corners.

Thanks for the info! What I knew is that "Eau Rouge" is the name of a small river that goes underneath the circuit, exactly down below the small left turn that then leads to the right steep curve, so I knew that small left corner as "Eau Rouge" and the next (the wow! one) as "Raidillon".

Schnizz58
07-05-2018, 16:46
If it's overly strict, users complain. If it's not overly strict, users complain... ;)
Such is the way of video games I guess. I know you're not singling anybody out but I just want to go on record that all of my bitching on this topic had less to do with the strictness and more to do with the arbitrariness of the limits themselves.


Thanks for the info! What I knew is that "Eau Rouge" is the name of a small river that goes underneath the circuit, exactly down below the small left turn that then leads to the right steep curve, so I knew that small left corner as "Eau Rouge" and the next (the wow! one) as "Raidillon".
That was always my understanding too. Thanks to Ofnir for straightening me out.

rich1e I
07-05-2018, 16:52
Thank you for the clarification Ofnir, my french is pretty much only the basics. In most maps the top corner of eau rouge is called raidillon and I think also motorsport commentators call it raidillon.

Raklodder
07-05-2018, 18:13
If it's overly strict, users complain. If it's not overly strict, users complain... ;)
Unfortunately, unless the users take it seriously, there will always be some to find exploits and use them. As cpcdem mentioned, those will be few and the same drivers each time so just start booting them when you see them. Either they will stop their behavior, or stop playing. Either way, everyone else wins.
I remember a time when I had hardly played any online and just wanted loosen penalties, but over time it has started to make sense and seeing how a lot of players drive, I do believe harsher penalties are in order.

Tar Heel
07-05-2018, 18:24
If the message isn't gone by coasting for a second I just take the penalty and get on with my race. At zolder, on the Villeneuve chicane you could lose 2 to 3 seconds and still have the message.

Not knowing how long I need to lift and coast is probably my biggest gripe with the penalty system and the inconsitency of time gained vs penalty time is second.

I think adding a count down timer would improve the penalty system greatly.

banner77amc
07-05-2018, 19:05
Not knowing how long I need to lift and coast is probably my biggest gripe with the penalty system and the inconsitency of time gained vs penalty time is second.

I think adding a count down timer would improve the penalty system greatly.

Or just like the AI system make adjustment on aggression of the penalty system. Top aggression= Chinese fire drill in the pits with your co-driver, Normal Aggression= slow down with a timer, and Low aggression= a nasty letter that you will get in the mail.

simsimsheree
07-05-2018, 21:50
If this is a sim, then the penalties should be sim penalties. That is, what they do IRL.

No real life series (AFAIK) allows drivers to serve timed penalties on track, on the racing line, with no regard for whether anyone is close by or not. Generally, drivers get a warning for a track cut or exceeding limits, and a drive-through if enough of them. Plus a return of position if the cut or exceeding limits gets them a pass within a turn or so of the infraction. Alternatively, a timed penalty that cannot be run off, and is deducted at the end of the race.

TBH, this is an easier system to implement than the current one... and far more serious to a racer that wants to win, as a drive-through is generally the kiss of death to a podium position.

But, if SMS regain their sanity, and decide that they actually DO want to create a sim, they probably need to revisit the track boundaries and allow a bit more leeway. I think best would be to allow the driver the exact same line that the AI use. Not an inch more, not an inch less. This would, at least allow the player the opportunity to emulate the AI's line rather than getting penalty after penalty following them! If SMS want an ultra-tight track boundary, make the AI follow it too...

It's an interesting comparison... PC2 allows their AI more freedom than the player, GT Sport allows the player more freedom than the AI. Both, IMHO, are wrong.

cpcdem
07-05-2018, 22:27
If this is a sim, then the penalties should be sim penalties. That is, what they do IRL.

No real life series (AFAIK) allows drivers to serve timed penalties on track, on the racing line, with no regard for whether anyone is close by or not. Generally, drivers get a warning for a track cut or exceeding limits, and a drive-through if enough of them. Plus a return of position if the cut or exceeding limits gets them a pass within a turn or so of the infraction. Alternatively, a timed penalty that cannot be run off, and is deducted at the end of the race.


Yeah, that would had been ideal, to fully emulate real life, where they give penalties only when a corner cut is either blatant (it very rarely is in real life, while it is common in sim racing...), or leads to an illegal overtake. But in real life they use several human stewards for that, which we do not have in sim racing, so until artificial intelligence becomes so much sophisticated to be able to correctly judge things like that, compromises need to be made.

I think the cut track detection mechanism in PC2 is in most cases almost perfect, it's the enforcement (or non enforcement) of it that still requires a lot of improvement.

Konan
07-05-2018, 22:34
But, if SMS regain their sanity, and decide that they actually DO want to create a sim

Why do you always have to explore/challenge the boundaries?
Your post was actually good...and then you throw in a line that's borderline insulting...

cpcdem
08-05-2018, 00:11
Speak of the devil, just now I am doing qualifying in Imola. Few minutes left, went on my out lap for one good lap. Finished the out lap, started my flying one, went through all the straight and at the end of it, before turn one, I got a message that my lap was invalidated due to last sector (in the out lap). Apparently I had somewhere went out in the out lap and did not realize it, but learned about it around a minute later. So no quali time. i think those are very unneeded frustrations.

Also Imola is an example of slowdowns being extremely harsh. Out of 10 drivers, 9 got for 1 to 3 penalties in just 6 laps...

inthebagbud
08-05-2018, 14:56
Speak of the devil, just now I am doing qualifying in Imola. Few minutes left, went on my out lap for one good lap. Finished the out lap, started my flying one, went through all the straight and at the end of it, before turn one, I got a message that my lap was invalidated due to last sector (in the out lap). Apparently I had somewhere went out in the out lap and did not realize it, but learned about it around a minute later. So no quali time. i think those are very unneeded frustrations.


I have had this at other tracks and wondered if it was linked to the lap you pitted on, as you may have decided to pit and not been fully on the ball with track limits and the resulting infringement is kept over to your next lap .

cpcdem
18-05-2018, 23:35
Hmm, looks like SMS is trying to slowly & quietly bring back the penalty system of patch 3 I think :)

At some point it was ok enough, but lately I was getting so many slow down warnings on occasions that I didn't gain anything, thought my driving has changed or something. But today it was just too much, we had a long race and it was penalties galore, almost everybody had 1 to 5, for extremely minor off track moments. And just today I realized that this change was actually made in patch 5!

I really hope this trend does not continue, in my opinion it is already creating a lot of trouble. A couple weeks ago I joined a well known league and found to my surprise that they had disabled cut track penalties, today I learned they did that because of patch 5, they did have them enabled before it...

PostBox981
19-05-2018, 10:44
Hm. How could they have changed that without sending any data to your computer? Or did I miss a tiny update?

cpcdem
19-05-2018, 12:08
Hm. How could they have changed that without sending any data to your computer? Or did I miss a tiny update?

Patch 5! Remember, it did not have detailed changelist, so that change was not mentioned either :)

KANETAKER
19-05-2018, 14:36
Patch 5! Remember, it did not have detailed changelist, so that change was not mentioned either :)

That explains everything ... phantom or hidden changes in patch 5 ... In fact a couple of my colleagues in LMP1 told me precisely that after patch 5 they felt that the LMP1 cars apparently had more grip than before, which is why in the time trial mode they have been able to improve their records even more in many tracks, becoming unreal:

1:48 vs 1:58 at SPA, and 3:07 vs 3:20 at LeMans. Comparing the laptimes of the TS040 in the game vs the real TS040. But before patch 5 the best times in those tracks were the following: 1:51 at SPA and 3:09 at LeMans.

We talk about an improvement of around 2 or 3 seconds compared to the performance of the LMP1 before patch 5. The reason for the improvement in times is due to the fact that having greater grip that allows to use much more aggressive setups with more oversteer and less aerodynamic load, allowing more top speed at straights and faster turns in the curves.

PostBox981
19-05-2018, 16:35
Patch 5! Remember, it did not have detailed changelist, so that change was not mentioned either :)

Okay, that´s a different story. I thought you felt changes within the last few days.