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Albertsen
17-02-2018, 21:55
I can manage challenging (sometimes stupid) AI - and the infamous single puddle at Bathurst and Zolder.
But those puddles that cover the whole track over long distances (Like the whole stretch between the chicanes at Le Mans) Why??

Is it fun?
No - you get to go off track almost every time you pass that point.

Is it realistic?
No - The AI powers through, you can barely manage at walking pace.

Is it for great gameplay?
No - If you go on a track where the whole width of the track is covered, there's nothing you can do.

It's NOT fun when the AI just powers through and I have to aquaplane 20 times per lap..
They ruin races for anyone but the AI.

I was looking forward to the Porsche 935/77 Hockenheim Historic race.... Yet, 30 minutes in, and it was ruined by puddles.
You can claim it's realistic, challenging and fun - but it's not.
Go ahead and try to finish that race if you don't believe me.

So, devs - please give the AI tweaking a rest... and turn the puddle amount way down on some of the tracks.

Albertsen
18-02-2018, 17:00
Great, this seems to be another case of "If we just look the other way, the problem will magically vanish."

Christiaan van Beilen
18-02-2018, 17:20
Your solution is a bit crazy. Why not suggest to improve the road surface at these problem areas? The system is based on fluid dynamics and precipitation after all, so water will naturally flow to the lowest point or gets stuck in ruts in the road, and that Le Mans stretch is public road for the rest of the year after all, so ruts are normal due to trucks driving there.

Jetsun
19-02-2018, 05:49
Le Mans stretch is public road for the rest of the year after all, so ruts are normal due to trucks driving there.
...and add a bit of French road engineering expertise and you got it :)

Sankyo
19-02-2018, 09:24
...

So, devs - please give the AI tweaking a rest... and turn the puddle amount way down on some of the tracks.
Doug will be rather surprised when he'll be told to stop optimizing the AI because one of the weather coders needs to adjust the rain build-up rate in the code...

In other words: AI tweaking and puddle forming are two completely separate areas in the game with different people working on them. Stopping work on AI because you think the puddles need tweaking would be an odd decision to say the least.

MortICi
19-02-2018, 16:14
I can manage challenging (sometimes stupid) AI - and the infamous single puddle at Bathurst and Zolder.
But those puddles that cover the whole track over long distances (Like the whole stretch between the chicanes at Le Mans) Why??

Is it fun?
No - you get to go off track almost every time you pass that point.

Is it realistic?
No - The AI powers through, you can barely manage at walking pace.

Is it for great gameplay?
No - If you go on a track where the whole width of the track is covered, there's nothing you can do.

It's NOT fun when the AI just powers through and I have to aquaplane 20 times per lap..
They ruin races for anyone but the AI.

I was looking forward to the Porsche 935/77 Hockenheim Historic race.... Yet, 30 minutes in, and it was ruined by puddles.
You can claim it's realistic, challenging and fun - but it's not.
Go ahead and try to finish that race if you don't believe me.

So, devs - please give the AI tweaking a rest... and turn the puddle amount way down on some of the tracks.

When you start the 935 race, did you check to see you have the right tires on? Slicks will act like the literal name once its really wet out. Make sure to equip rain/wets before race start...

The puddles and rain is fine, if anything in the G40J the rain was too easy (all weather tires help). Only time I had issues is driving with slicks in the wet, once swapped to a proper tire everything was a-ok.

Albertsen
19-02-2018, 17:35
What solution is crazy? :rolleyes:
That i suggest that the racing should have a higher priority than nice looking eyecandy puddles, that ruin racing for everyone but the AI? :confusion:
If this is so realistic as you claim it to be .... WHY does all the AI just plow through?

I know Mulsanne is Public road... I've driven there myself.
Public roads have camber. As in high on the middle where the two lanes meet, so water flows out to the sides and off the road (track in this case.)
Like so:
http://magazine.roadtrooper.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/MichelinPilot_Review_llustration_2.jpg
Apart from bumps, Mulsanne is level in the game.
I've never seen Mulsanne totally flooded in real life. Wet , yes - but not flooded as much as the cars went of to the grass at EVERY lap.

The fluid "dynamics" are crazy. I've seen puddles that are on high points of some tracks. Like at the top of the kink after mulsanne??! WTF??
(At 3:40 here)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGbbGn0mzME&feature=youtu.be&t=3m37s

Albertsen
19-02-2018, 17:37
When you start the 935 race, did you check to see you have the right tires on? Slicks will act like the literal name once its really wet out. Make sure to equip rain/wets before race start...

The puddles and rain is fine, if anything in the G40J the rain was too easy (all weather tires help). Only time I had issues is driving with slicks in the wet, once swapped to a proper tire everything was a-ok.

Yes, of course. Rain tyres for rain... And I even raised the car.

Albertsen
19-02-2018, 17:43
Doug will be rather surprised when he'll be told to stop optimizing the AI because one of the weather coders needs to adjust the rain build-up rate in the code...

In other words: AI tweaking and puddle forming are two completely separate areas in the game with different people working on them. Stopping work on AI because you think the puddles need tweaking would be an odd decision to say the least.


Jeeeez... In other words how on earth am I supposed to know how you guys work...

It would seem that you all really like the rain more than actually being able to race. Gameplay .... pffft - we have eyecandy.

Christiaan van Beilen
19-02-2018, 20:35
What solution is crazy? :rolleyes:
That i suggest that the racing should have a higher priority than nice looking eyecandy puddles, that ruin racing for everyone but the AI? :confusion:
If this is so realistic as you claim it to be .... WHY does all the AI just plow through?

I know Mulsanne is Public road... I've driven there myself.
Public roads have camber. As in high on the middle where the two lanes meet, so water flows out to the sides and off the road (track in this case.)
Like so:
http://magazine.roadtrooper.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/MichelinPilot_Review_llustration_2.jpg
Apart from bumps, Mulsanne is level in the game.
I've never seen Mulsanne totally flooded in real life. Wet , yes - but not flooded as much as the cars went of to the grass at EVERY lap.

The fluid "dynamics" are crazy. I've seen puddles that are on high points of some tracks. Like at the top of the kink after mulsanne??! WTF??
(At 3:40 here)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGbbGn0mzME&feature=youtu.be&t=3m37s

The reason AI plows through is because they are on a simpler and far less demanding tire model. The BTM or Brush Tire Model and not STM or Sera Tire Model like on the player car.
Which is basically causing the entire issue here with the AI performance troubles, but we can't put AI on STM because of a lack of computation power in today's computers and consoles.
So since STM more accurately reacts to water, BTM reacts simplified to water and can get away with more or ends up on the other end and you will have AI spinning out more quickly.

Also the puddles are not eye candy like in For a or others. They are actual representations of the water level on those spots. Like I said... it is all based on fluid dynamics and the graphics are attached to that data.

As far as the road surface goes. You are right, but sometimes roads are slanted to one side or another as well. For example a road alongside a river will be slanted towards the river.

Its well possible that Le Mans has flaws as I don't believe it is scanned, so I won't be surprised if they forgot to make it slightly convex if the real road is like that.
Personally I have never been to Le Mans, so I wouldn't know the road structure there at all.

MrTulip
19-02-2018, 22:06
Some puddles are really killers when they grow, like the one in furthest end of Sakitto where you can get a puddle so big there is simply no chance of driving that specific bend at almost any speed without spinning or understeering off the road. (Well at least with Corsa tyre which should handle water quite well.)

It might be realistic; even 60 km/h into a very deep puddle certainly throws a car quite a lot in real life. But I think that gameplay wise a good compromise for these mega puddles would be that there were some kind of limit how big they can grow, or at least lower their maximum depth if drainage simulation allows that.

Albertsen
20-02-2018, 17:20
The reason AI plows through is because they are on a simpler and far less demanding tire model. The BTM or Brush Tire Model and not STM or Sera Tire Model like on the player car.
Which is basically causing the entire issue here with the AI performance troubles, but we can't put AI on STM because of a lack of computation power in today's computers and consoles.
So since STM more accurately reacts to water, BTM reacts simplified to water and can get away with more or ends up on the other end and you will have AI spinning out more quickly.

Also the puddles are not eye candy like in For a or others. They are actual representations of the water level on those spots. Like I said... it is all based on fluid dynamics and the graphics are attached to that data.

As far as the road surface goes. You are right, but sometimes roads are slanted to one side or another as well. For example a road alongside a river will be slanted towards the river.

Its well possible that Le Mans has flaws as I don't believe it is scanned, so I won't be surprised if they forgot to make it slightly convex if the real road is like that.
Personally I have never been to Le Mans, so I wouldn't know the road structure there at all.

I understand that the AI is on simpler tyres. It has been mentioned in numerous threads.

But I don't understand why they should have an advantage over the player car.
You don't have AI being the only one with downforce, or the only ones with headlights.
It's not realistic when it's not the same for all cars!

And that's why I plead of you to turn down the amount of puddles on flooded tracks. Players don't have a bleeding chance.

I like the rain - and I can manage puddles - but flooded tracks doesn't make sense. Driving at walking pace doesn't make it realistic. Or fun.
I've driven for about 20 years now IRL - only aquaplaned ONCE.

Tryout Le Mans or Hockenheim Classic in the Storm ... then tell me where to drive, because there's points where it doesn't matter. BIG puddles cover EVERYTHING. Look at the bove video for a good example. The swerving motions ARE NOT me swerving - but aquaplaning.
And it happens EVERY time I pass that point. It feels like driving through a river.

Yet, Spa Classic is really manageable... guess why... It has only 2 puddles!
I counted over 20 from the first chicane down to Mulsanne at Le Mans. So something is way off with the amount of distributing those race-killers.
Not even the Ford Bronco can get a foothold in those puddles.

It's a good thing this isn't a bike game.

Mahjik
20-02-2018, 19:49
Christiaan is correct, that it's based on fluid dynamics.

However, what SMS can do is add drainage options to areas of tracks that are too saturated. They have done this in several cases already where real life drainage was not adequate.

What might be helpful for SMS is identifying tracks and specific areas on those tracks where users believer there is too much pooling. I'm suggesting SMS will necessarily go do something about it, but that is the best way to aid in improving what you perceive as an issue.

Jetsun
20-02-2018, 21:47
I'm suggesting SMS will necessarily go do something about it, but that is the best way to aid in improving what you perceive as an issue. You probably mean 'not suggesting' :)

ermo
20-02-2018, 22:01
I understand that the AI is on simpler tyres. It has been mentioned in numerous threads.

But I don't understand why they should have an advantage over the player car.
You don't have AI being the only one with downforce, or the only ones with headlights.
It's not realistic when it's not the same for all cars!

And that's why I plead of you to turn down the amount of puddles on flooded tracks. Players don't have a bleeding chance.

I like the rain - and I can manage puddles - but flooded tracks doesn't make sense. Driving at walking pace doesn't make it realistic. Or fun.
I've driven for about 20 years now IRL - only aquaplaned ONCE.

Tryout Le Mans or Hockenheim Classic in the Storm ... then tell me where to drive, because there's points where it doesn't matter. BIG puddles cover EVERYTHING. Look at the bove video for a good example. The swerving motions ARE NOT me swerving - but aquaplaning.
And it happens EVERY time I pass that point. It feels like driving through a river.

Yet, Spa Classic is really manageable... guess why... It has only 2 puddles!
I counted over 20 from the first chicane down to Mulsanne at Le Mans. So something is way off with the amount of distributing those race-killers.
Not even the Ford Bronco can get a foothold in those puddles.

It's a good thing this isn't a bike game.

The more specific you can be re. the problem areas, the easier you make it for the devs to reproduce and experience the issue as you do.

If you hope for action to be taken, yelling at the developers is rarely the most constructive approach. If instead you were to, for example, mark/annotate the video you uploaded with the worst of the problem spots, the devs have a place to start IF they find the time to take a good, long look at this.

For the record, I'm not suggesting that you are wrong or anything. Just that your approach might benefit from a slight adjustment? :)

Christiaan van Beilen
21-02-2018, 02:54
Guys, I just drove the track in stormy conditions in Free Practice. My amount of puddle forming was no where close to what's in the video. So either something is wrong with Albertsen his game somehow (suggest profile delete & Steam file integrity check) or I have the wrong settings.

Albertsen, could you post your settings? Cause honest I drove 10 laps without issues with the same car using the stable setup with the only change being from automatic to wet tyres and using 100% brake pressure.

MrTulip
21-02-2018, 17:50
Hmm... This could be tied to race length and weather synced to race. I remember that during the development sync to race caused different results compared to free accelerated time in how fast the track floods.

Edit:
Tried to prove above sync to race thesis but no need for that eventually. I tested at Le Mans now in summer time with one Storm weather slot. After 2 laps the straight sections had plenty of deep enough puddles that were able to throw around McLaren F1 around violently (using track - medium - tyres).
Might be so that different wet tyres handle them better than others and they go unnoticed at speed.

Edit2:
Looks like with McLaren F1 with medium tires I was just asking for trouble. I had much better success with summer tyres. It was not easy though, but I wonder if ground clearance would also have effect should it be adjusted.

I then tested with BMW M3 Group A touring car (stable setup) with wets, and I didn't really have much trouble with puddles anymore. There were again many but only few of the deepest ones in the bends had enough effect on driving to require immediate corrections with the wheel.

I had time only to do few laps with my runs so I don't know whether the puddles would have grown to the extremes shown in Albertsen's video. Mine certainly weren't that huge after 2 to 4 laps. I'll try running longer races in storm weather tomorrow.

Albertsen
22-02-2018, 15:27
The more specific you can be re. the problem areas, the easier you make it for the devs to reproduce and experience the issue as you do.

If you hope for action to be taken, yelling at the developers is rarely the most constructive approach. If instead you were to, for example, mark/annotate the video you uploaded with the worst of the problem spots, the devs have a place to start IF they find the time to take a good, long look at this.

For the record, I'm not suggesting that you are wrong or anything. Just that your approach might benefit from a slight adjustment? :)

Okay - first of all, I'm not yelling at anyone - I'm trying to highlight what's important in my post, so you don't have to read a wall of text.
I would give you a link to the video at the exact point in time - but this forum doesn't accept timecodes.

OddTimer
22-02-2018, 15:35
SMS could remove the puddles...In real life, races would be red flagged. Or at least have them in thunderstorm weather only.

Albertsen
22-02-2018, 15:41
Guys, I just drove the track in stormy conditions in Free Practice. My amount of puddle forming was no where close to what's in the video. So either something is wrong with Albertsen his game somehow (suggest profile delete & Steam file integrity check) or I have the wrong settings.

Albertsen, could you post your settings? Cause honest I drove 10 laps without issues with the same car using the stable setup with the only change being from automatic to wet tyres and using 100% brake pressure.

What settings? Hardware?
Last race before I gave up on the puddles were the Porsche 935/77 Hockenheim Historic race.
I think the race defaults to an hour.
Loose Setup. Tire chance: Automatic by weather.

I only changed these settings:
Raised the car from Front80/Rear90
to Front100/Rear120 (To stay out of the water.)
Boost Pressure 100

Other than that, I never changed anything.

The puddles you see in the Le Mans video, is there every time I get Stormy weather. Practice or race.

I bet there's more tracks with strange puddles than these two, but I haven't had time to check all of them, sorry. :p

Edit: Mine is the Deluxe Edition - I don't think it matters, but who knows.

Albertsen
22-02-2018, 15:48
SMS could remove the puddles...In real life, races would be red flagged. Or at least have them in thunderstorm weather only.
I'm not asking to remove the puddles altogether. I don't mind a few of them - But when they gang up on me and leave the AI, then I think they could use a bit of tweaking.

Mahjik
22-02-2018, 16:26
SMS could remove the puddles...In real life, races would be red flagged. Or at least have them in thunderstorm weather only.

Not true.... https://john4kc.smugmug.com/NASARacing/MAM-April-2014/RAIN-RACE-on-Sunday/i-7vb4w4t/A

Christiaan van Beilen
23-02-2018, 13:30
What settings? Hardware?
Last race before I gave up on the puddles were the Porsche 935/77 Hockenheim Historic race.
I think the race defaults to an hour.
Loose Setup. Tire chance: Automatic by weather.

I only changed these settings:
Raised the car from Front80/Rear90
to Front100/Rear120 (To stay out of the water.)
Boost Pressure 100

Other than that, I never changed anything.

The puddles you see in the Le Mans video, is there every time I get Stormy weather. Practice or race.

I bet there's more tracks with strange puddles than these two, but I haven't had time to check all of them, sorry. :p

Edit: Mine is the Deluxe Edition - I don't think it matters, but who knows.

I meant the weather, date and other settings of the track itself.

The issue is mostly that I really don't have much standing water on the track at all. Your video shows it's littered with water to a crazy amount.
The only place where I have serious issues is at the first chicane on entry only. Other than that it's simply water buildup on the inside of cambered corners, so you need to go wide of the apex.

That said, I can easily keep the car straight albeit not always while driving with no hands on the wheel. So there are some puddles that can cause some aquaplaning at speed that will give a tug on the car.

I won't have much time for gaming tonight to test things further though. Yesterday was my birthday, today my ol' granny has hers. So it won't be sooner than tomorrow.

Azure Flare
24-02-2018, 05:20
I did some driving. Not completely sure about the conditions shown in the video, but I was in the 935, with full boost for added effect, rain tires, in a thunderstorm. I drove for 10 laps, and not once did I see any massive puddles of water as shown in the video. I tried it a second time, but only for 5 laps, and I saw the same things as in my first run.

MrTulip
24-02-2018, 18:05
I had two runs.

First run:
10 laps, storm, time 60x, McLaren GT3

No considerable water buildup on the racing line until 8 laps in. It does seem to continue though, so there could be flooding if one runs, say 20 laps, we might get conditions similar to Albertsen's video. Not much difficulties to drive with GT3 car until last two laps out of ten but still manageable.

Second run:
10 laps, medium+storm+thunderstorm and synced to race, time 15x, McLaren GT3

Starts raining on the second lap. Big puddles have formed after the 7th lap and keep growing. I think puddles were bigger now, probably because of the thunderstorm. Still manageable but more difficult than on the first run. One exceptionally big on the short straight before the last bend you get to go into the pits. This had also formed on the first run with just stormy conditions, though.

Albertsen's video shows those mega puddles on the very first lap, so it is likely that it is either a bug and/or possibly already fixed in patch 4?

Mahjik
24-02-2018, 18:13
Initial track saturation is random, so you likely will not be able to get the OP's initial scenario unless you keep re-trying the same combination multiple times.

Christiaan van Beilen
25-02-2018, 03:57
Initial track saturation is random, so you likely will not be able to get the OP's initial scenario unless you keep re-trying the same combination multiple times.

Did the day/night time setting upon speed up also speed up the weather transition? In which case we could make an hour last 10 minutes and driver for 20 or let the PC running for a bit during say... dinner or something. If not than it would indeed be a royal pain to get the exact saturation as in the video.

Although that said... I feel OP is getting the same saturation each time? Or else it would be odd to get so frustrated I'd think. I could be wrong but maybe OP can clarify.

Albertsen
25-02-2018, 10:06
Initial track saturation is random, so you likely will not be able to get the OP's initial scenario unless you keep re-trying the same combination multiple times.

Not random at my end. Puddles are located at the same spots every time in storm or thunderstorm. ~2 laps in.
Weather settings:
Date: 01/03/2018
Session Start: 09:00
Time Progression: 5X
Season: Spring
Weather: 4 - Storm, Thunderstorm, Clear, Clear
Weather Progression: 5X

Thanks for taking your time Christiaan van Beilen and the rest of you guys.
The previous response I got from this forum - if I even got a response, was "The puddles are fine."
Goddamn that's frustrating.

I verified Integrity of the files about an hour ago. Still the same puddles.

Albertsen
25-02-2018, 13:37
Here's the last couple of laps of the Hockenheim Historic Race ... just after the heavy rain stopped.
I don't know how wet it is on your machines - but I didn't have the willpower to do this for an hour (That was my original plan.) - so I cut it down to shortest time possible.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R60FZgIpDkw

Christiaan van Beilen
25-02-2018, 14:15
Not random at my end. Puddles are located at the same spots every time in storm or thunderstorm. ~2 laps in.
Weather settings:
Date: 01/03/2018
Session Start: 09:00
Time Progression: 5X
Season: Spring
Weather: 4 - Storm, Thunderstorm, Clear, Clear
Weather Progression: 5X

Thanks for taking your time Christiaan van Beilen and the rest of you guys.
The previous response I got from this forum - if I even got a response, was "The puddles are fine."
Goddamn that's frustrating.

I verified Integrity of the files about an hour ago. Still the same puddles.

It's not the puddle location but the saturation (how much of a puddle has been build up (ie. how much water there is to make up the puddle)).

I'm starting to feel like something is going wrong with your installation somehow, cause it seems like each time for some reason you have 'maximum saturation' of the track. Which is really weird.

Personally I'd start from a fresh installation and make sure to manually delete any remaining files in the Steam installation folder and My Documents folder. However, if you have an on-going career that you've worked hard on I can understand you'd rather not do that.

Albertsen
25-02-2018, 14:49
Yeah, it kinda sucks .... But on the other hand I would rather have this working properly.
If I join a race online on a wet track then I guess I'm screwed, since I probably have more water on track than the rest.

Edit: No way back now. I really really hope this works.

Christiaan van Beilen
25-02-2018, 15:04
Yeah, it kinda sucks .... But on the other hand I would rather have this working properly.
If I join a race online on a wet track then I guess I'm screwed, since I probably have more water on track than the rest.

Edit: No way back now. I really really hope this works.

I'll keep my finger crossed for you. :)

MrTulip
25-02-2018, 16:39
Not random at my end. Puddles are located at the same spots every time in storm or thunderstorm. ~2 laps in.
Weather settings:
Date: 01/03/2018
Session Start: 09:00
Time Progression: 5X
Season: Spring
Weather: 4 - Storm, Thunderstorm, Clear, Clear
Weather Progression: 5X

Thanks for taking your time Christiaan van Beilen and the rest of you guys.
The previous response I got from this forum - if I even got a response, was "The puddles are fine."
Goddamn that's frustrating.

I verified Integrity of the files about an hour ago. Still the same puddles.

Above settings, race time set to one hour, I had three subsequential runs. At 20+ mins Hockenheim Classic track was absolutely flooded and worse than in the video. Especially puddles on the stadium area (just after arriving from the back straight) were huge.
At this point it was quite clear that Hockenheim Classic would be in the need of additional drainage.

As with my struggles with medium tyres (Track) on McLaren F1 and better results with hard (Summer) tires, I thought that biggest problem would not be the puddles but that Group 5 wet tyres were simply too bad at replacing water.

During those three runs I had following observations:

The 1st run was with Group 5 BMW 320 Turbo. Absolute nightmare of a race. I had very difficult time already two laps in. With any bigger puddles I had to drive under 60 km/h and I still could often spin almost uncontrollably. I had to double check that I endeed had rain tyres. At 20+ minutes in there was no chance of driving much faster at all (because you were going through flooded areas constantly and if you'd aquaplane instantly and lose control.

The 2nd run was with Group A BMW M3 Touring Car. Puddles were as big as on the first run but driving was a lot easier. I actually enjoyed this one. Eventually the big floods started causing some problems, but nowhere near to the amount of 320 Turbo!

The 3rd run I did with 320 Turbo again, with upped ground clearance to the max, which was only few centimeters away from the default on M3. Not remarkable difference compared to the first run, so it is not that this excessive aquaplaning of Group 5 cars would be caused by their bottom plate (not sure if that is even modeled in).

So, it seems that Group A Wets are so much better in the same conditions that you can easily drive over big puddles at 150+ km/h speeds. With Group 5 cars you have to slow down to 50 km/h to prevent aquaplaning and spinning.

Albertsen
25-02-2018, 16:43
Finally a proof that I'm not that crazy.

Albertsen
25-02-2018, 18:09
Oh, well - after uninstalling via Steam, and deleting the PCars2 folder in my documents, and reinstalling there's no difference.
It loaded up my game progress after reinstalling - so I guess there's a backup on Steam?

Christiaan van Beilen
25-02-2018, 22:01
Oh, well - after uninstalling via Steam, and deleting the PCars2 folder in my documents, and reinstalling there's no difference.
It loaded up my game progress after reinstalling - so I guess there's a backup on Steam?

Ehm... it might be pulling My Documents from OneDrive instead of local from your harddrive. I had that and removed OneDrive, cause somehow it linked directly to OneDrive no matter what I did. Which I truly do not want.

breyzipp
25-02-2018, 23:58
I would give you a link to the video at the exact point in time - but this forum doesn't accept timecodes.

It does if you post the video as an URL:

1:56 as URL:
https://youtu.be/RGbbGn0mzME?t=1m56s

Albertsen
26-02-2018, 08:20
Ehm... it might be pulling My Documents from OneDrive instead of local from your harddrive. I had that and removed one drive, cause somehow it linked directly to OneDrive no matter what I did. Which I truly do not want.

Strange - I don't even use OneDrive.

Christiaan van Beilen
26-02-2018, 10:31
Strange - I don't even use OneDrive.

Well, that's not it in that case. It's just a little thing I had when I was wondering why in the world my profile wasn't removed. So it was a could be. ;)

Normally you should have a clean slate if you delete the Project CARS 2 folder in My Documents, and deleting the folder in the Steam folder is just so you didn't have any trouble with old files that could have remained after a patch for some reason. The only other place I could think of is the hidden Program Data folder on your C drive. Some programs and games store data there as well. I just can't remember if PC2 did or not. I'd have to check later as I need to get out of the house now.

Albertsen
26-02-2018, 16:45
After digging around I found this little thing ... I bet that's the culprit.

250736

Oh, well - uninstalling .... again.

Raklodder
26-02-2018, 18:54
It was hard in the beginning to dodge those puddles, but once you learn how to cut through or go past them, everything will come full circle.

Albertsen
27-02-2018, 08:52
How do you dodge anything that covers the whole width of the track?
250789

Azure Flare
01-03-2018, 03:03
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if nobody else is reporting of having the same issues, it may be hardware related.

twb86
03-03-2018, 18:09
I've just been searching for a thread on this subject as I'm experiencing exactly the same issues in my Career, Porsche manufacturer Affinity stage 1 race, Hockenheim Classic in the 935.

The race defaults to two hours long but i don't have the time for that in one sitting so i knocked it down to 15mins, the race starts in a thunderstorm and by lap two or three there is no chance at all of getting out of second gear, the car is absolutely undriveable in the way that the OP describes even crawling along the straights. The AI don't seem to have such a hard time. I don't know if the shortening of the race and presumably the weather then scaling over 15mins what it was going to do in 2hrs is relevant?

I am on PS4 and a competent driver with sim racing experience starting in the Grand Prix Legends days, something really seems not to be right here.

Mahjik
03-03-2018, 22:34
What might be helpful for SMS is identifying tracks and specific areas on those tracks where users believe there is too much pooling. I'm not suggesting SMS will necessarily go do something about it, but that is the best way to aid in improving what you perceive as an issue.

..............

Christiaan van Beilen
04-03-2018, 02:34
..............

The track was already identified by OP as being the Le Mans 24h layout as also used in various video and image material already.

I've already said that the first chicane is more or less flooded. I don't know if this happens normally at that area in real life but to me that's the biggest car turns speedboat area. Others to me have been normal.

The bigger issue is the fact that users like me that don't have issues seem to have normal randomized pre-floading of the track as stated before as to what should normally happen, but in OP's case the entire track seems to be flooded by default as shown in the picture above and also showcased in his first video of the issue. This to me is really out of the ordinary but he also already reinstalled his game and deleted his my documents folder. Something is wrong on his end from my perspective but I can't seem to figure out what it is, but maybe a dev can chime in and give possible hints? Or any of the mods can do a back and forth?

Mahjik
04-03-2018, 03:23
The track was already identified by OP as being the Le Mans 24h layout as also used in various video and image material already.

I'm not talking about a single track. Let's make a list fellas. It's not that hard. If there are areas of tracks where users believe there should be better drainage, then start a list for the devs. i.e.

Le Mans - Playstataion Chicane
Track 2 - T4
Track 4 - Straight after T5


etc..

Albertsen
04-03-2018, 08:58
I think I have mentioned that the part between the chicanes is terrible, quite a few times.

Albertsen
04-03-2018, 09:20
The video provides a lot of hints as to where the puddles are - just hit pause. Most of them you can't miss.

Anyway:
251050

Albertsen
04-03-2018, 09:33
Hockenheim Classic
251051

Albertsen
04-03-2018, 09:40
So, I'll say it again - maybe it would be easier to turn down the "drag" of the puddles - and let us go through them just as the AI - and leave them as is, instead of going through a lot of tracks - and deleting and or tweaking individually.

That way we could end up with something a lot more fun than aquaplaning: racing the AI.

Mahjik
04-03-2018, 16:43
So, I'll say it again - maybe it would be easier to turn down the "drag" of the puddles

That's up to the devs to decide how they want to handle things. However, from what I've seen throughout WMD2, proper drainage points are more desired.

Christiaan van Beilen
04-03-2018, 16:46
So, I'll say it again - maybe it would be easier to turn down the "drag" of the puddles - and let us go through them just as the AI - and leave them as is, instead of going through a lot of tracks - and deleting and or tweaking individually.

That way we could end up with something a lot more fun than aquaplaning: racing the AI.

Solution... Don't drive in the rain if you don't want the consequences of rain. That or just drive online.

Sure Ai isn't perfect but it has been explained why, but dumbing down physics that works... I don't see the use in that. Besides, removing physics just because a solution is hard to achieve is just the easy way out. Finding a proper solution to your problem will benefit everyone.

Azure Flare
05-03-2018, 00:12
I decided to try to replicate the conditions thst have been shown. I managed to do it when I had 2 slots, both with thunderstorms, and 30x weather progression.

This makes me think Albertsen isn't being completely genuine with his claims.

Raklodder
05-03-2018, 01:07
I actually encountered it today at Le Mans, where the AI just drove straight through a whole pond of water (just before Tertre Rouge) while I just gently touched it and flew into the wall and spun around.

Christiaan van Beilen
05-03-2018, 01:58
I decided to try to replicate the conditions thst have been shown. I managed to do it when I had 2 slots, both with thunderstorms, and 30x weather progession.

This makes me not think Albertsen isn't being completely genuine with his claims.

Is that double negative on purpose? Just making sure. :confused:

Azure Flare
05-03-2018, 02:03
Is that double negative on purpose? Just making sure. :confused:

I don't know what you're talking about. :p

Christiaan van Beilen
05-03-2018, 02:24
I don't know what you're talking about. :p

Don't feign ignorance... the automated edit time under an edited post never lies. :p

I have been thinking though. To which time is the draining speed hooked up? Is that weather progression time or the day/night cycle of time progression, or maybe even system time aka real time?
My point is if it isn't hooked up to weather time progression and the game time cycle or real time cycle does not progress at the same speed as the weather, the drains don't drain at the same speed as the weather is coming down. Thus effectively flooding the track.

To explain it simple. If during a normal thunderstorm you have 50mm of rain in 24hr with 30x speed up you would have 150mm of rain in 24hr. No normal drainage working in real time would be able to cope with such crazy amounts of water. It is normal to expect the flooding of streets in this case to the point where some cars might even decide to float down the streets, if it were to happen in real life.
So thinking that drainage speed (and thus time) isn't hooked up to weather progression and causing this mess is a most logical deduction.


...and no my name isn't Watson or Holmes. :p

Azure Flare
05-03-2018, 02:45
I have been thinking though. To which time is the draining speed hooked up? Is that weather progression time or the day/night cycle of time progression, or maybe even system time aka real time?
My point is if it isn't hooked up to weather time progression and the game time cycle or real time cycle does not progress at the same speed as the weather, the drains don't drain at the same speed as the weather is coming down. Thus effectively flooding the track.

To explain it simple. If during a normal thunderstorm you have 50mm of rain in 24hr with 30x speed up you would have 150mm of rain in 24hr. No normal drainage working in real time would be able to cope with such crazy amounts of water. It is normal to expect the flooding of streets in this case to the point where some cars might even decide to float down the streets, if it were to happen in real life.
So thinking that drainage speed (and thus time) isn't hooked up to weather progression and causing this mess is a most logical deduction.

That's worth testing. I would set weather progression tp 30x, but time is still progressing at 1x. If both was matched, then would the rain still build up to an ocean?

Christiaan van Beilen
05-03-2018, 03:04
That's worth testing. I would set weather progression tp 30x, but time is still progressing at 1x. If both was matched, then would the rain still build up to an ocean?

True, but that might not be the end of it. Cause if the drainage system is synced to the computer's internal clock than it doesn't matter what the time progression is set to.

I am now going to bed though, so I won't be firing up the rig until tomorrow.

Maskmagog
05-03-2018, 12:44
My point is if it isn't hooked up to weather time progression and the game time cycle or real time cycle does not progress at the same speed as the weather, the drains don't drain at the same speed as the weather is coming down. Thus effectively flooding the track.

I haven’t experienced or tried this, but it sure sounds like a plausible cause for flooding.

Christiaan van Beilen
05-03-2018, 18:42
Okay, here's what I tried and the results

Time Prog.: real time + Weather Prog.: real time + 1 slot: thunderstorm = Normal puddle forming
Time Prog.: real time + Weather Prog.: real time + 2 slot: thunderstorm = Normal puddle forming
Time Prog.: real time + Weather Prog.: real time + 4 slot: thunderstorm = Normal puddle forming
Time Prog.: 30x + Weather Prog.: real time + 1 slot: thunderstorm = Normal puddle forming
Time Prog.: 30x + Weather Prog.: real time + 2 slot: thunderstorm = Normal puddle forming
Time Prog.: real time + Weather Prog.: 30x + 1 slot: thunderstorm = Normal puddle forming
Time Prog.: real time + Weather Prog.: 30x + 2 slot: thunderstorm = Abnormal puddle forming
Time Prog.: 30x + Weather Prog.: 30x + 2 slot: thunderstorm = Abnormal puddle forming with no drainage improvement due to time progression
Time Prog.: 60x + Weather Prog.: 30x + 2 slot: thunderstorm = Abnormal puddle forming with no drainage improvement due to time progression


To me this seems as if the drainage system is only hooked up to the system clock (of your PC) and thus will always be operating in real time. Weather seems to stay normal and doesn't flood the drainage system with only 1 slot used even with increased time progression, but as soon as you add more than one slot than the system starts to "add up" the amount of rain that has to come down instead of just progressing through the storms. Using more than 1 slot for thunderstorm also seems to darken the environment more.

So either there is something wrong with how the weather progresses and adds up instead (at least the amount of rain falling), or the drainage system is operating too slow as it's hooked up to system clock and thus working in real time thus resulting in a flooded track.

Albertsen
11-03-2018, 07:42
I decided to try to replicate the conditions thst have been shown. I managed to do it when I had 2 slots, both with thunderstorms, and 30x weather progression.

This makes me think Albertsen isn't being completely genuine with his claims.

Yeah. And i posted fake videos and fake screenshots as well. :rolleyes:

Alex_76
11-03-2018, 15:52
I decided to try to replicate the conditions thst have been shown. I managed to do it when I had 2 slots, both with thunderstorms, and 30x weather progression.

This makes me think Albertsen isn't being completely genuine with his claims.

Please do this test:

Go to career mode and do the Porsche Manufacturer 935/77 Hockenheim Classic race.

Set the race length to 12m and the AI to a level where you can easily get pole by around 10s.

Do the race then come back here and tell us where you finished and whether you still think this is not a problem.

Azure Flare
11-03-2018, 17:58
Yeah. And i posted fake videos and fake screenshots as well. :rolleyes:

The findings thst Christiaan has posted shows that you need to overwhelm the drainage system to replicate what you posted earlier.

Albertsen
17-03-2018, 11:34
So what are you saying? That I hacked the game?? :rolleyes: Why on earth would I do that?

Albertsen
17-03-2018, 12:05
Solution... Don't drive in the rain if you don't want the consequences of rain. That or just drive online.

So screw the career and invitational races then??
I thought this game should be letting people win or lose by actually driving - and not AI having unfair advantages.

Azure Flare
18-03-2018, 04:38
So what are you saying? That I hacked the game?? :rolleyes: Why on earth would I do that?

Never said that. I'm saying that what you show can be replicated, so it won't "just happen".

Gordon
18-03-2018, 07:04
Have any mods seen this thread - does it need to be shifted somewhere more appropriate?

edit: reported own post for this purpose :)

Konan
18-03-2018, 07:25
Have any mods seen this thread - does it need to be shifted somewhere more appropriate?

edit: reported own post for this purpose :)

The devs have seen it yes...

Edit:and including me five mods also...

Christiaan van Beilen
19-03-2018, 22:11
So screw the career and invitational races then??
I thought this game should be letting people win or lose by actually driving - and not AI having unfair advantages.

Okay, I notice you're just trying to yank on some chains to get attention and put the game in a bad daylight. This both because of the way you reply to Azure Flare and how you quote me out of context.

First let me quote myself in full:

Solution... Don't drive in the rain if you don't want the consequences of rain. That or just drive online.

Sure Ai isn't perfect but it has been explained why, but dumbing down physics that works... I don't see the use in that. Besides, removing physics just because a solution is hard to achieve is just the easy way out. Finding a proper solution to your problem will benefit everyone.

I never said screw anyone. I was just being sarcastic with that remark.
The thing is, we (SMS together with aid of WMD members) have been trying to make a simulation racing game that is as realistic as possible within the constraints of contemporary technology. This meant that sacrifices had to be made and a big one being that the AI couldn't be put on the same tyre model as the player. The player's STM tyre model has been constructed that it will naturally respond to fluid dynamics as well as other surface types (grass, gravel, snow, ice, sand, etc). The AI's BTM tyre model doesn't have this and thus some MacGuyver solution had to be put into place to make it work as good as possible but never will be perfect, which is something you can expect with "workarounds" opposed to proper "solutions".

Of course dumping down the Physics would be saying that we are better off going back to Shift 2 physics in my opinion, which was fully BTM tyre model as far as I know. Or we could just hack it some more until everyone is satisfied and hope that soon more computation power is available on the consumer market, so that we can use STM for the entire grid. Of course what I mean with being satisfied is work at it until it works well enough albeit not perfect but isn't annoying or game experience breaking.


Now as for the puddles. As Azure Flare said... the only way to replicate your situation is by overloading the drainage system. Which on my end at least can't be done unless certain conditions are met, see my test results above. So maybe you can perform tests like that on your end and see if anything changes on your end for better or worse. After all, only by testing and looking at results can you get closer to the source of the issue as well as better informing the developers here.

Albertsen
23-03-2018, 15:35
Okay. Listen. I'll break it down again.

1. I'm not trying to yank any chains. I'm getting frustrated having to repeat myself numerous times to report a bug where:
A: The AI has a big advantage over me in puddles. But, It's as if the devs don't want to test it themselves - and I have to proof everything though walls of text - instead of you just firing up the game with more than 2 weather slots.
B: Some tracks are "blocked" by big water puddles. There's no obvious raceline. This would never happen on a real track.

2. I know the AI don't have player physics. I never said they should have player physics. What they do though, is the ability to go 3 times as fast as me through water. And I don't think I've seen one aquaplane ever. It's a big immersion breaker. If this was a simulation (as claimed - the difference between player and AI speed in water should not be that far apart.)
So - I propose a solution - instead of fixing 3000 tyres - fix the puddles. Or slow down the AI in water.

3. I don't mind the rain. A BMW group 5 on slicks, on a damp track is quite fun.
Spinning out for the 5th time because I go more than 30kmh on raintyres in water isn't fun though.

4: You make it sound like I'm the only one with this problem, but I'm not.

User Nint found a puddle bug with more than two weather slots. (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?58623-Behaviour-in-rain-on-puddles-(AI-Human)&p=1483698&viewfull=1#post1483698)

It's not fun when the race gets killed by puddles - when I just want to settle who wins by actually racing. I know that sounds crazy to you. (As per post #3.)

Albertsen
23-03-2018, 15:49
Okay, I notice you're just trying to yank on some chains to get attention and put the game in a bad daylight.

That makes no sense at all.
I could paint cars for attention.

252169

hiro17
01-04-2018, 03:48
Hi, I have the same problem:

The Porsche Career Drive at Historic Hockenheimring is impossible with the aquaplaning - on a 45min race the first 15 are easily driveable in the rain, but then the track gets flooded in most parts as per OP (looks the same as video) and requires slowing down to <50km/h to get through the water. I am on PC

Ixoye56
01-04-2018, 19:40
Hi, I have the same problem:

The Porsche Career Drive at Historic Hockenheimring is impossible with the aquaplaning - on a 45min race the first 15 are easily driveable in the rain, but then the track gets flooded in most parts as per OP (looks the same as video) and requires slowing down to <50km/h to get through the water. I am on PC

Same problem, I'm on Xbox X, this has caused me to avoid career, for now anyways, still enjoy a majority of the game, maybe racing in the rain should be left to online only for now.

2010 Synergy Camaro
06-04-2018, 02:11
Update 5.0 did not resolve the Career Mode Porsche Manufacturer 935/77 Hockenheim Classic race puddles issue. Maybe SMS could change the weather slot to dry so we could advance to the next race.

thomasjohansen
28-05-2018, 18:35
going from wets to slicks after the rain has stopped and a few laps of dry runs, there are a few puddles one have to avoid to prevent aquaplaning. but its impossible to get through Mulsanne without sliding off track.

even after 30 minutes of dry weather and 20 cars passing by there is no dry path through it....


where are the intermediate tires for the lmp1's? that could be a solution. Is it the all terrain tires??

KANETAKER
28-05-2018, 18:55
going from wets to slicks after the rain has stopped and a few laps of dry runs, there are a few puddles one have to avoid to prevent aquaplaning. but its impossible to get through Mulsanne without sliding off track.

even after 30 minutes of dry weather and 20 cars passing by there is no dry path through it....


where are the intermediate tires for the lmp1's? that could be a solution. Is it the all terrain tires??

Same case with the puddles at Bus Stop Chicane and before curve 6 at Daytona Road Course...

I also ask why they eliminated the intermediate tires and the medium compound for PCars2? That limits the strategies only to rain tires and soft and hard compounds.

thomasjohansen
28-05-2018, 19:37
just did 50 min lemans with 30 cars and had 4 weathers starting with light rain and then sun for the rest.
Which means 35 minutes of dry weather. and had to drive with wet tires all 50 minutes.

The track hadnt dryed up enough on the racing line to go on slicks. wierd puddles especially in Mulsanne.

And the more the track dries up the more aquaplaning in puddles even with wet tires.

cjhill44
28-05-2018, 20:15
Gt3 World Cup career mode

So I had just won the European gt3 championship and had some great close racing on 105 difficulty.
Yet I start the gt3 World Cup with the same difficulty level and I am shocked to find that in practice I am 10 seconds per lap off the pace at Road America!!!

How can this be?

I have had to turn it down to 65 to even be fighting mid pack!

Anyone else experienced similar issues?

Rain might have played a part, the grip they can carry through fast corners in the wet is ridiculous

Mahjik
28-05-2018, 20:17
Yet I start the gt3 World Cup with the same difficulty level and I am shocked to find that in practice I am 10 seconds per lap off the pace at Road America!!!

How can this be?


Check the post here from SMS:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?62712-Unofficial-issue-list-Post-Patch-5-0&p=1510026&viewfull=1#post1510026

cjhill44
28-05-2018, 20:32
Sorry this is a general AI performance discrepancy not to do with rain puddles I don't believe, I should move my post to the AI related thread

Paulpg87
29-05-2018, 06:28
Yes, puddles totally ruin the experience. The AI is not affected. The issue is there from day 1.

I hope It will get solved even if i am not playing the game anymore.

Zaskarspants
30-05-2018, 10:50
Yes, puddles totally ruin the experience. The AI is not affected. The issue is there from day 1.

I hope It will get solved even if i am not playing the game anymore.

This is not what I find. In my experience the AI are slower in the rain than me by about two to three seconds per lap when in the dry I am about equal to them.

The AI tend to stay on the racing line and are more like to go through puddles and slow, by taking better lines the AI can be more easily matched.

Dry.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj7FsM_Q4RA

Thunderstorm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcugmMO73nw

Raklodder
30-05-2018, 11:55
Session settings: https://i.imgur.com/ZWcgX32.png Race results: https://i.imgur.com/KYSUwCx.png

I did a 24 lap race last night at the NŁrburgring (combined) against the AI (100/50) TC, GT4 & GT3 and I was clearly the faster driver for 18 laps, but then came the rain and by the end I was in 10th.

We all changed (yes, me and my imaginary AI friends) tyres on lap 16-18, but now they were all starting to pull away at a rate of 10 seconds per lap?

The AI seemed unaffected and immune by the "race running puddles", whereas soon as I would touch the border of it, I would go for a spin, hence my 2 extra pit stops...

I would also like to point out that the AI never once went off track (not even when I tried to squeeze through them multiple times) nor did I see a yellow flag, but perhaps that's because of my aggression settings?

Part of it probably comes down to me not tuning my car properly, well, other than changing my tyres, aero, break and radiator opening, suspension, etc. but it just seems so strange?

But despite of all my frustrations, I had a blast, just wanted to add that, before someone thinks I only bash the game, when in reality, I enjoy it almost every day.

:cool:

Zaskarspants
30-05-2018, 12:48
^^^ I find increasing tyre pressures in torrential rain helps me.

Raklodder
30-05-2018, 16:36
^^^ I find increasing tyre pressures in torrential rain helps me.
It seemed to work alright the first lap and a half, but then they got below 50c and I found it ever harder to control my car and dodge those tiny puddles, but I will keep at it and not give up until I've got it nailed.

I think the game would be better off without the severity of just touching those puddles, I mean, should 1cm spin the whole car when going in a straight line (perhaps an exaggeration) but you get the point?

Cholton82
30-05-2018, 17:16
^^^ I find increasing tyre pressures in torrential rain helps me.

What sort of cold pressures do you set in the average GT3 car in wet conditions ? Iíll give them a try

Seelenkrank
30-05-2018, 17:53
find the error with these "puddel" on this track location.
https://youtu.be/bMdkxhRjoqs?t=737

Keena
30-05-2018, 17:55
This article might be an interesting read for you chaps..
https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Aquaplaning

Seelenkrank
30-05-2018, 18:09
ok its from planes but even a plane would not come into this condition @50 km/h.
they drive on the 24H NOS race in the rain with over 200 km/h (!)
and it was heavy raining.
they going slower in corners and has to catch the car more often but they race like mad man.

skcusIHC
31-05-2018, 17:02
I really like the normal rain AI pace and performance, as well as the player physics. The normal rain seems like a great experience to me.

The big puddles in heavy rain are very difficult, if not impossible. But that's also one of the reasons that races get red flagged in those conditions. I've been at a race at Road America where it finished raining before the race start and the track was fairly dry at race start. Standing water in Kettle Bottoms resulted in cars instantly losing all rear grip and slamming into the barrier despite trying to just coast through it off throttle (on long straights). No choice but to red flag the race. During monsoons at the Sao Paulo street circuit, the track became undriveable in no time due to standing water. Tons of examples through the years.

The main problem I see with PC2, is the complete lack of any sort of grip at crawling speeds and the AI seeming to be much better through the standing water. I'm pretty sure others have expressed the same thing.

I'm not sure what the answer is for a sim because in real life, large standing water is near impossible in high performance race cars. I hope the rest of the rain experience doesn't get changed.

gp2112
31-05-2018, 20:18
I dunno, there were puddles on the Mulsanne, before the Playstation chicane, that seemed out of place. Sure, one could account for the road surface, but how often do you find puddles on streets that are on slopes? I am not even talking mountain slopes but slopes that are as obvious as the slope of the Mulsanne going to Playstation. I know of no road that would hold water like that. I do know of roads that would shed that water to a lower level and puddle at the bottom, but unless you have potholes or sunken areas, you do not get puddling on slopes.

The puddles at the crest on the straight from Mulsanne corner to Indy was also telling. There would be no puddles on any crest unless there was a pothole severe enough to notice while the track was dry. Anyone notice the condition of the dry track? Notice any severe low spots or potholes? I don't either and I sure do not notice dips or holes on that crest.

Fluid dynamics is one thing, and one thing I understand, but if SMS is using fluid dynamics then the program is forgetting that puddles will not form when water has an opportunity to find it's own level unless it is contained by something that will not allow it to move. Something that would put that amount of water in that place would be noticeable when dry.

I too have had issues with trying to race on wet circuits where it is nearly impossible yet the AI plows right along as if the track is dry. I have also had issues with heavy puddles building in areas that, when dry, do not have the type of road level variances that would allow for those puddles to form.

jaredinhouston
31-05-2018, 20:38
I was leading a career race at Knockhill in Ginnetta Juniors by 7 seconds halfway through a race with light rain. There were puddles forming but I was able to go around and also keep posting personal best times as the race dwindled down however the AI was able to catch up to me somehow and even get lap times 3-4 seconds quicker then they qualified with the weather and same difficulty. Didn't seem fair one bit.

Seelenkrank
31-05-2018, 20:43
well i bet there are no fluid dynamics taken on the tracks (and i dont understand why not).
the puddels (see my video link above) form on a downhill section...
it is not the place where a real puddel would form.
these puddels in the game are "strategic" placed to be in the raceline and affect the racing.
not more, not less.
worsed thing is that the AI is not affectet by these and we human drivers to much (lost control while moving with ~30km/h).
i hope the patch will fix these "bugs".

davidt33
31-05-2018, 21:53
Recently done an online race on Zhuhai with the Nissan 240 ZG GTS. Season: Summer, Time: 12:00, Weather: Light rain (not even Rain or heavy rain).
Was the most frustrating race ever with that light rain, puddles all over the place. Was near impossible to keep the car on track even at snail pace. Car was skidding all over the place despite having wet tyres on. It was most unrealistic. Was sure glad for that race to finish.

Gregz0r
01-06-2018, 08:42
Are the puddles as bad on the laser scanned tracks? You’d expect them to form in the right places, being scanned, but that depends on the quality of the scanning.

Zaskarspants
01-06-2018, 10:06
I do find I need total concentration in the rain, but rarely do I find anything frustrating.

I will try some of the combinations I see mentioned here as very difficult, I may not have come across the most difficult or problematical.

I see the AI as slower in the rain than the dry, likely to go through puddles and slow down, whereas the player can go faster by taking a line avoiding the puddles.

I have been trying to beat the AI at 120 with the gt5 at Nordschleiffe for the last two days, I am struggling in the dry with a good last v 5 AI but in the torrential rain I can win.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc_3S6fCD1s

pferreirag60
01-06-2018, 10:18
I had the same problema in Lemans as the OP, since the beginning of PCars2. Giant puddles all over the place, exactly as in is video!

Maybe the puddles forming or how big they form could be indexed to your hardware(kind of bug)?!


AI speed in rain: I always race witth 100:80, and in almost all circuits, with almost all class Iīm always faster than the Ai, be it dry or rain. But in some circuits/cars even if iīm much faster in dry (1 or 2 sec lap) in the rain they are faster than me, not all the cars, but the first ones can be much faster than me.

Maskmagog
01-06-2018, 10:32
I was leading a career race at Knockhill in Ginnetta Juniors by 7 seconds halfway through a race with light rain. There were puddles forming but I was able to go around and also keep posting personal best times as the race dwindled down however the AI was able to catch up to me somehow and even get lap times 3-4 seconds quicker then they qualified with the weather and same difficulty. Didn't seem fair one bit.

I did that race a while ago. IIRC, the rain stops after a while, and the track begins to dry. I remember that I didn't notice that the rain had stopped. Suddenly the AI came roaring in my rear view mirror, and I barely held on to my pretty big lead. If I had noticed the weather change earlier, I could probably have avoided the panic I felt :)

Zaskarspants
01-06-2018, 10:46
I will try le mans today. I admit I have never raced there, I just drove the it once in a group c with min aero to see what top speed I could get, and never in the rain.

edit - I just read the whole thread. I only play in normal time and with no weather acceleration, so having read the whole discussion that may be why i have no issues or lake corners ( so far).

Leper Messiah
01-06-2018, 12:32
The thing I find most mind boggling about all this is that scripted weather for Career is still a thing, if players could change the weather in the options then 99.9% of the complaints on this subject would cease. I truly love the game but the career weather thing is just exasperating things and creates frustration. Player choice should always be paramount.

Kitt
02-06-2018, 11:02
Hi, I have the same problem:

The Porsche Career Drive at Historic Hockenheimring is impossible with the aquaplaning - on a 45min race the first 15 are easily driveable in the rain, but then the track gets flooded in most parts as per OP (looks the same as video) and requires slowing down to <50km/h to get through the water. I am on PC

Same....so frustrating

r200ti
02-06-2018, 12:38
Same here, several of the career races are impossible due to the AI's performance in the rain. It effectively renders the changeable weather feature (one of the pluses over AC) pointless/useless for single player
That 935 race i just set the AI to 10% and minimum distance in the end to complete it, which completely defeats the point of racing.


Online its awesome (same for all) but nobody ever sets up races with it!

fishaac
05-06-2018, 14:49
I was having the same problem with flooded tracks as previously posted, especially in the 1st Porsche event at hockenheim classic.
Patch 6 seems to have fixed it though, I managed to actually finish that event last night and the FFB generally feels loads better everywhere else!

dan2312
19-07-2018, 12:26
Tracks with killer puddles in my experience which definitley need to be looked at is:

Imola: after you go down in incline into the fast right and then brake for a tight right and go uphill, inbetween them two corners. Its ruined my races, no way around it.

Sakitto, Near the end of the S-bends. there is one that snags me off the track every time. The one after you go under the bridge i can cope with that one. I don't know about other people.

Keena
20-07-2018, 07:11
During the race (single player only) view replay. Dont bother watching the whole replay, exit back to race- hey presto puddles reset to zero. Rinse and repeat as required.

davidt33
20-07-2018, 11:41
During the race (single player only) view replay. Dont bother watching the whole replay, exit back to race- hey presto puddles reset to zero. Rinse and repeat as required.
Thanks for that tip.

Zenzic
25-09-2018, 19:26
During the race (single player only) view replay. Dont bother watching the whole replay, exit back to race- hey presto puddles reset to zero. Rinse and repeat as required.

Being forgetful about this and watching the instant replay right after a cool moment has ruined many of my races. And to add to the frustration: the magically dry track causes AI to enter the pits to swap to dry tires. And a few laps later they go in again for wets.

albus
14-11-2018, 19:19
Hockenheim Classic
251051

i have the same problem. I thought that i was not good enough. I was doing fine until the rain began to form a lot of puddles. I had to struggle just to pass over them while the AI was going at full throttle. No problem with other tracks, but I'll try le mans and see if there is the same problem.

(sorry for bad english)

CastrolGT
14-11-2018, 21:24
another track with killer puddles? there we go: Monza
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and, the best joke. try to avoid this:
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there could be fish and ducks on it, you wouldn't even see the difference…

this is definately not right and puddles like that IRL equals red flag

even with Group B cars it's impossible to pass these. yes, GROUP B CARS! you know, the ones that passes on rivers without any problems in some of their rally stages. here, even at 15kph, I turn the wheel, the car still goes "straight". sideways, but still straight…

UkHardcore23
14-11-2018, 22:28
Would love it if they vastly reduced puddles in the next patch or two.

Cholton82
15-11-2018, 08:23
Would love it if they vastly reduced puddles in the next patch or two.

I canít see there being another patch .

Bambasti
18-11-2018, 07:20
Wow. SMS still didn't figure it out.

Puddles -as they are currently in PC2 - suck.

There's no way around that conclusion for me. Could be slightly different if the AI model was more sophisticated - but it isn't. And driving through too many puddles would still be no fun. If you have to master a certain event in the rain often the only way is to dumb down AI to levels where it barely moves. I really don't know what SMS is doing, but this issue isn't exactly new. There are several tracks (last one I tried and why I ended here was Le Mans Classic) that have puddle issues which should concern you deeply. They were mentioned here before and issues were documented in way that seems coherent. Way too often there are puddles, even at normal rain, which are impossible to avoid and they make the car going full retard, unless you lower the speed to bicycle levels. Otherwise there's a guaranteed contact with the track barriers. AI doesn't care and ploughs through them at full speed. Realism gets washed away instantly and is gone down the drain.

I see two solutions: finally fix this (certainly about time) or get rid of puddles altogether (or at least give the option in the settings). A working game design is always more important than fancy looking stuff. I mean I get it: SMS is proud of their puddles. Weather effects as advertised, yaaay! But certain aspects just don't work out. I mean: does nobody in charge at SMS ever wonder why online sessions almost never have rainy weather? And did nobody over there notice that racing in the rain is only fun until a kind of puddles appears that can't be avoided and randomly throws a car uncontrollable off the track?

Another hint should be that Assetto Corsa Competizione is in Early Access these days and still missing quite a bit of features. It's nowhere close to PC2. But weather is implemented and, surprise, there aren't any puddles of doom. They would have adopted them if they were any good, wouldn't they? At the moment more rain just means more water on the track and it's more difficult to drive - overall. There aren't single puddle encounters that can't be controlled. Seems like a more mature design to me, by far.

UkHardcore23
18-11-2018, 12:10
You would think its just a case of a simple code input? Like flickkng a switch that says 75% less puddle ;)

Sentry87
18-11-2018, 14:05
That looks like massive down pour though. Who races in those conditions?

MrTulip
18-11-2018, 14:50
AFAIK puddles mechanism is very different in ACC compared to PCARS2. Latter is much more dynamic and has things such as the wetness of the soil that is random seeded in the start of the race to match the general weather of the area and season, as well drainage systems.

Different option for weather slots also affect PCARS2 a lot, so if you are experiencing mega puddles, try to avoid adding too many weather slots to the short races with sync to race option enabled. As long as it is not career race, of course.

All the while we know how PCARS2 weather system works, I'm still bit puzzled why there is no option to limit the maximum size of the puddles, after which they simply would stop gaining depth and width no matter how much it pours in.

2010 Synergy Camaro
18-11-2018, 15:21
I can’t see there being another patch .

SMS has not released data to third parties of the Ferrari Pack and there is no mention anywhere about the game being complete. Therefore, I believe there is more to come for Project Cars 2. As far as the puddles go the (pause, view replay, resume) work around still works.

Bambasti
18-11-2018, 20:59
Aquaplaning in reality (should still be the reference):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxuYOI_uruU

You may notice how the car doesn't change its direction even if the driver manically rotates the steering wheel. That's how physics work. Law of inertia when things are moving. The faster the more inertia. If the speed is high enough you can even go over larger bodies of water, like a lake. There are videos on Youtube showing this.

How it works in PC2:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmND4pvuroI


Why in hell does the car suddenly change directions in an uncontrollable manner?

Should just move over the water and you shouldn't be able to steer while on it. The speed is high enough so that there shouldn't be any other effects, just fly over it. Instead in PC2 the car just goes full retard. That's not physics. It's the inability to simulate a working copy. Get it done, get puddles in a working state, get rid of the deeper ones altogether since you don't seem to be able to fix it or give players the possibility to deactivate your nonsense please. Just a switch to keep the small puddles but deactivate the lager ones. Will make everyone happy.

MrTulip
18-11-2018, 22:23
Why in hell does the car suddenly change directions in an uncontrollable manner?


To be honest uncontrollable manner in your video happens because the left side of your car is going over a deeper part of the puddle than the right. You are hitting much more standing water there thus causing the pull to the left. Also your speed is much higher than what is in the tutorial video of aquaplaning (probably 100 km/h versus over 200 km/h).

It helps somewhat if you aim to the parts of the puddle that are of equal size for the both sides of the car, and also lift off to prevent wheel spin or push to the side when you go over the puddle. Although that is not an easy task in high speed and low visibility and view angle.

Urban Chaos 2.0
18-11-2018, 22:34
Aquaplaning in reality (should still be the reference):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxuYOI_uruU

You may notice how the car doesn't change its direction even if the driver manically rotates the steering wheel. That's how physics work. Law of inertia when things are moving. The faster the more inertia. If the speed is high enough you can even go over larger bodies of water, like a lake. There are videos on Youtube showing this.

How it works in PC2:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmND4pvuroI


Why in hell does the car suddenly change directions in an uncontrollable manner?

Should just move over the water and you shouldn't be able to steer while on it. The speed is high enough so that there shouldn't be any other effects, just fly over it. Instead in PC2 the car just goes full retard. That's not physics. It's the inability to simulate a working copy. Get it done, get puddles in a working state, get rid of the deeper ones altogether since you don't seem to be able to fix it or give players the possibility to deactivate your nonsense please. Just a switch to keep the small puddles but deactivate the lager ones. Will make everyone happy.

Take your car out in the rain, disable the electronic aids, and drive over a shallow puddle at around 80km/h. You WILL lose control. For the record, please don't attempt this if you don't understand the kind of behaviour that should follow. I don't want to be held accountable for serious damage, or loss of life. These are the REAL consequences of driving over puddles. Your will never just drive over it. That's not how things work. If you really can find a very safe place to test it out, then you can. Otherwise, stick to theory, and INVESTIGATE the effects of shallow street puddles on cars, both with and without the electronic aids.

The video on top, also features a very wide, even puddle which is approached head on, The driver starts turning the wheel only while in its midst, and very likely has stability control enabled. The reason your car swerved to the left in Project Cars 2, is the fact that you hit a patch of road with the water unevenly situated. This will result in one tyre being forced into different conditions from the other. Your car will lose stability and veer off course.

satco1066
18-11-2018, 22:37
imho , rain density and puddle building should be reduced overall.
I think , light rain should really be "light". I was more than once at Red Bull ring with light rain. There was just a little bit spary, but never puddle building.
This condition cannot be simulated here. If you set light rain, in 10 to 15 minutes there is too much water on track. This is not light. This is heavy.
I know, SMS sits in good old England. What most people in other countries see as light rain, is just a little bit moist for them ;)
So again please.
Density should be reduced all over and no puddle building for light rain.

Urban Chaos 2.0
18-11-2018, 22:44
imho , rain density and puddle building should be reduced overall.
I think , light rain should really be "light". I was more than once at Red Bull ring with light rain. There was just a little bit spary, but never puddle building.
This condition cannot be simulated here. If you set light rain, in 10 to 15 minutes there is too much water on track. This is not light. This is heavy.
I know, SMS sits in good old England. What most people in other countries see as light rain, is just a little bit moist for them ;)
So again please.
Density should be reduced all over and no puddle building for light rain.

It depends on the track. Some tracks will displace the water quite well, others won't. Look at this year's Silverstone MotoGP race. Due to a new track surface, the track was unable to get rid of the rain water, and so the race wound up being cancelled. The thing is, in Project Cars 2 there are no red flags or race cancellations for such things when they do occur on certain tracks. It makes much more sense to include that as an option, than to gimp Livetrack's fluid mechanics of water build-up and drainage.

Bambasti
18-11-2018, 23:33
Take your car out in the rain, disable the electronic aids, and drive over a shallow puddle at around 80km/h. You WILL lose control. For the record, please don't attempt this if you don't understand the kind of behaviour that should follow. I don't want to be held accountable for serious damage, or loss of life. These are the REAL consequences of driving over puddles. Your will never just drive over it. That's not how things work. If you really can find a very safe place to test it out, then you can. Otherwise, stick to theory, and INVESTIGATE the effects of shallow street puddles on cars, both with and without the electronic aids.

The video on top, also features a very wide, even puddle which is approached head on, The driver starts turning the wheel only while in its midst, and very likely has stability control enabled. The reason your car swerved to the left in Project Cars 2, is the fact that you hit a patch of road with the water unevenly situated. This will result in one tyre being forced into different conditions from the other. Your car will lose stability and veer off course.

I actually had aquaplaning on several occasions and obviously I survived. Even years ago when there was no electronic aid for the rescue. My cars never got hit with a hammer. The most prominent effect was that the steering wheel felt loose and disconnected. Obviously a warning sign that shouldn't be ignored.

Physics also tell you that water becomes "hard" when the impact is happening at a high velocity. That's why jumping from high altitudes into water doesn't go well. Driving >200 km/h like I did in the video would make me expect that I just slide on top of the surface of the water, without diving into it too deep. Obviously losing grip due to the nature of the effect (like riding on ice), but not having impact on the direction of my vehicle as well.

In PC2 it hits you like a hammer and throws you off course, no matter how fast you go. In my experience in reality this doesn't happen. Aquaplaning/hydroplaning is sneaky. Drive a car on you own in heavy weather and if you're fast enough you'll see this.

Physics again: If water would have as much stopping impact as it has in PC2 this vehicle never would make it to the other side:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWWt9IC7mGs

But it does. I would conclude that the stopping effect at high speeds is way below the energy that's needed to throw a fast going car off the road. The faster you go the greater the forces to change course have to be (law of inertia again).

In PC2 invisible puddle-forces throw you around like mad. This isn't fun and feels unrealistic as well. There must be a reasons why drivers are avoiding bad weather playing online like the plague. If you believe that the effects of the weather system in PC2 are so great then it's hard to argue against the vote of a majority that is seeing this differently. Apart from obvious physics obviously.

P.S.
Also we know that these crazy changes of direction happen as well while hitting a puddle symmetrically.

Urban Chaos 2.0
19-11-2018, 07:30
I actually had aquaplaning on several occasions and obviously I survived. Even years ago when there was no electronic aid for the rescue. My cars never got hit with a hammer. The most prominent effect was that the steering wheel felt loose and disconnected. Obviously a warning sign that shouldn't be ignored.

Physics also tell you that water becomes "hard" when the impact is happening at a high velocity. That's why jumping from high altitudes into water doesn't go well. Driving >200 km/h like I did in the video would make me expect that I just slide on top of the surface of the water, without diving into it too deep. Obviously losing grip due to the nature of the effect (like riding on ice), but not having impact on the direction of my vehicle as well.

In PC2 it hits you like a hammer and throws you off course, no matter how fast you go. In my experience in reality this doesn't happen. Aquaplaning/hydroplaning is sneaky. Drive a car on you own in heavy weather and if you're fast enough you'll see this.

Physics again: If water would have as much stopping impact as it has in PC2 this vehicle never would make it to the other side:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWWt9IC7mGs

But it does. I would conclude that the stopping effect at high speeds is way below the energy that's needed to throw a fast going car off the road. The faster you go the greater the forces to change course have to be (law of inertia again).

In PC2 invisible puddle-forces throw you around like mad. This isn't fun and feels unrealistic as well. There must be a reasons why drivers are avoiding bad weather playing online like the plague. If you believe that the effects of the weather system in PC2 are so great then it's hard to argue against the vote of a majority that is seeing this differently. Apart from obvious physics obviously.

P.S.
Also we know that these crazy changes of direction happen as well while hitting a puddle symmetrically.

You have neglected to keep in mind that every video (2) you have shown to argue your case (1 which may even feature electronic aids on the vehicle), includes a vehicle travelling into a a body of water of even lateral distribution. Do you know what happens when that is the case? Nothing.

Again: The reason your car swerved to the left in Project Cars 2, is the fact that you hit a patch of road with the water unevenly situated. This will result in one tyre being forced into different conditions from the other. Your car will lose stability and veer off course. Or do you not remember that the entire straight section of the track was wet while you driving in PC2? It is only when you hit a PATCH of uneven water, that the car lost stability.


Physics also tell you that water becomes "hard" when the impact is happening at a high velocity. That's why jumping from high altitudes into water doesn't go well. Driving >200 km/h like I did in the video would make me expect that I just slide on top of the surface of the water, without diving into it too deep. Obviously losing grip due to the nature of the effect (like riding on ice), but not having impact on the direction of my vehicle as well.

Wrong. The working principle behind the water seeming to become "harder" at high speed is surface tension. The water does not become harder. From a vertical drop, you are having to overcome the tendency of the water molecules to resist deformation at a much higher rate. This is why it hurts. Now, the quad bike is displacing the water on the surface by driving over it, but is being kept afloat by that which lies below (to a significant depth). Again: The water is proportional in availability in all directions about the quad bike. Show me a video where a car drives over a puddle with one set of tyres, while the other set remains dry. Or a video where the the road surface to the right of the car is more or less wet than the left. The car will not be stable. At higher speeds, this effect is in fact multiplied. Especially as the puddle deepens. Driving over a small puddle, and driving into a lake, are NOT one and the same thing. Especially, when you understand that most tarred roads, are not evenly flat and straight.

You know, I was driving dead-straight on a highway once at about 120km/h, when my car hit a series of puddles. Each time, the car rapidly tilted right/left to a large degree, and maintained that position for a few tenths of a second, before stability control set it back straight. Without SC, I'd have spun... very badly. This was a front wheel-drive vehicle.

CastrolGT
19-11-2018, 14:01
You have neglected to keep in mind that every video (2) you have shown to argue your case (1 which may even feature electronic aids on the vehicle), includes a vehicle travelling into a a body of water of even lateral distribution. Do you know what happens when that is the case? Nothing.

Again: The reason your car swerved to the left in Project Cars 2, is the fact that you hit a patch of road with the water unevenly situated. This will result in one tyre being forced into different conditions from the other. Your car will lose stability and veer off course. Or do you not remember that the entire straight section of the track was wet while you driving in PC2? It is only when you hit a PATCH of uneven water, that the car lost stability.



Wrong. The working principle behind the water seeming to become "harder" at high speed is surface tension. The water does not become harder. From a vertical drop, you are having to overcome the tendency of the water molecules to resist deformation at a much higher rate. This is why it hurts. Now, the quad bike is displacing the water on the surface by driving over it, but is being kept afloat by that which lies below (to a significant depth). Again: The water is proportional in availability in all directions about the quad bike. Show me a video where a car drives over a puddle with one set of tyres, while the other set remains dry. Or a video where the the road surface to the right of the car is more or less wet than the left. The car will not be stable. At higher speeds, this effect is in fact multiplied. Especially as the puddle deepens. Driving over a small puddle, and driving into a lake, are NOT one and the same thing. Especially, when you understand that most tarred roads, are not evenly flat and straight.

You know, I was driving dead-straight on a highway once at about 120km/h, when my car hit a series of puddles. Each time, the car rapidly tilted right/left to a large degree, and maintained that position for a few tenths of a second, before stability control set it back straight. Without SC, I'd have spun... very badly. This was a front wheel-drive vehicle.

then tell me why, in Monza, under the bridge before Ascari, with that massive lake that covers the entire width of the track, when you drives onto it, the car suddenly gets trown to the left without no reason? again, that massive lake covers the entire width of the track. there's no patch of tarmac under that bridge. even with a Group B car, it brutally drifts to the left.

to remind you, here's what I'm talking about:
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this lake. it's straight, it does indeed change elevation, but still, ANY car gets uncontrollable when driving onto this at ANY speed. which does not reflect reality at all

Urban Chaos 2.0
19-11-2018, 14:13
Seriously, are you making any attempts to understand what's going on here? Look at the border of water towards the entry of that bridge. Is it a straight line cutting across the track, or do you see that it partially meanders? This at least, should give you clues as to the nature of the road onto which the water has settled.

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Zaskarspants
19-11-2018, 14:22
Yesterday I tried Monza in a thunderstorm briefly and did not see large puddles like those posted above. I may not have done enough laps or perhaps had a shallow seed state but I was able to lap with the other cars.

I will try to do a video later.

CastrolGT
19-11-2018, 15:57
Seriously, are you making any attempts to understand what's going on here? Look at the border of water towards the entry of that bridge. Is it a straight line cutting across the track, or do you see that it partially meanders? This at least, should give you clues as to the nature of the road onto which the water has settled.

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when you drive at a moderate speed, I understand that. but when you drive more than 200 kph with a group B car like the Ford RS200 on the right of that "puddle", the slight offset of that "puddle" entry becomes almost straight. when you go over 200kph on a real SLIGHTLY offset puddle, you car doesn't really react by pointing in another direction than the one you where already going. I could understant for the track racing cars that sits low, but on higher sitting cars, this is just ridiculous. and it is even more ridiculous when you go less than 30kph and still have massive aquaplaning when the wheels should have the time to evacuate that amount of water by going very slow. looks like the game doesn't even wear its name correctly. just a reminder: it's Project Community Assisted Racing Simulation. but it doesn't look like this anymore. I can be banned, I don't care. I'm just stating a fact

Bambasti
19-11-2018, 18:11
when you drive at a moderate speed, I understand that. but when you drive more than 200 kph with a group B car like the Ford RS200 on the right of that "puddle", the slight offset of that "puddle" entry becomes almost straight. when you go over 200kph on a real SLIGHTLY offset puddle, you car doesn't really react by pointing in another direction than the one you where already going. I could understant for the track racing cars that sits low, but on higher sitting cars, this is just ridiculous. and it is even more ridiculous when you go less than 30kph and still have massive aquaplaning when the wheels should have the time to evacuate that amount of water by going very slow. looks like the game doesn't even wear its name correctly. just a reminder: it's Project Community Assisted Racing Simulation. but it doesn't look like this anymore. I can be banned, I don't care. I'm just stating a fact

That's exactly the point I am trying to make and where some refuse to follow. Arguing like physics in a game are the reference and not reality doesn't make any sense. If you go fast enough the water in a puddle just becomes a solid body you skip over. You can't change direction or brake while being on it but it won't change yours as well. Like going on ice. Ever skipped a flat stone on a lake? Same principle. High velocity + low angle of impact = bounce.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VjP4SjK2O0

PC2 doesn't feel like that. In both directions it's off. There is a speed, depending on tyres and weight, where a car is fast enough to lose contact to the tarmac but to dive in deep enough at the same time so that considerable forces have a breaking impact on the wheels. If this happens one sided and hard enough the car is going to spin, obviously. But why do you spin in PC2 even while hitting a puddle symmetrically? The behaviour is completely erratic, like the car has no weight (having no inertia) and the effect is mostly uncontrollable. If you go slow enough you should just drive through the puddle or being fast enough you'll rush over it in a straight line.

PC2 seems to be off in both directions. Even being very slow a car becomes a boat and no matter how fast it is going (as seen in my video, was way above 200 km/h) water hits like a hammer to throw you off the road.

If this would be the real world and a realistic behaviour there wouldn't be any race in the rain since there would be several deaths to mourn afterwards.

Urban Chaos 2.0
19-11-2018, 18:26
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OK, let me try and spell it out for you guys. The left outline of the puddle (red) is further toward the tunnel than the right. This means: The puddle is deeper on the left.

Now what are the implications?

1) The resistance encountered by the left wheels of the car will be greater than that encountered by the right (BECAUSE THERE IS MORE WATER ON THE LEFT).
2) The car will steer to the left, as that side's wheels are forced to slow more, and the torque difference compels that motion.

That's all there is to it. It's not complicated.

CastrolGT
19-11-2018, 18:39
no matter if the puddle is deeper on the left or not. there's no deep measure in PC2. I've clearly looked onto that in game. it's just a big layer of water like you're applying a paper onto a surface. there's no deepness at all. plus, I don't recall that section under the bridge being banked to get that famous "deeper on the left". also, you're forgetting an important fact: the faster you go on an uneven puddle, the more likely you're going to stay at the top layer of water. no matter if the front left wheel touches first the water or the front right wheel. if the difference of impact is less than 0.01 second, it's like both wheels touches the water at the same time. your explanation works on cars that dives into a deep puddle; but on PC2, you're even with the track. so as the water. there's no deepness. there's just an impression of deepness. and even if there was deepness, the water would still be heavily chased due to the bumper also chasing the water like in rally stages where they can go into puddles that are around 50cm deep and are really huge

Urban Chaos 2.0
19-11-2018, 18:45
no matter if the puddle is deeper on the left or not. there's no deep measure in PC2. I've clearly looked onto that in game. it's just a big layer of water like you're applying a paper onto a surface. there's no deepness at all.

Oh God. I'm done. I'm done. Go do your research dude. Go do your research. Because you have not the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Cheers.

CastrolGT
19-11-2018, 19:15
basic facts of puddles still applies, dude.
you're going fast on a puddle with your 4 wheels touching it at a very high speed, you're going straight. not sideways.
one side of your car hits the water at a very high speed, you go sideways.
you go on a deep puddle with your 4 wheels at a very high speed, you float straight while you pass on it.
you go at a medium speed on that same puddle, you start to go sideways because you have less speed.
you go slow on that puddle, you're actually getting slowed down heavily due to the bumper catching the water too.
you go on a deep puddle on one side and a not deep puddle on the other side at very high speed, you stay on the top layer.
you pass on the same uneven puddle at a lower speed, you start drifting towards the deepest part due to lower speed.
you go slowly in that puddle, then you can still have control of your car.

in PC2, no matter if the puddle feels deep or not, you go on the water, whatever if the speed is very high, moderate or walking speed, you're on ice.
with ANY tires. slicks(understandable), dirt, road, wet, ice, ANY! also, with ANY car that you drive. race, road, rally, high ground clearance, low ground clearance, F1, Prototype, GT, car, truck, no differences.
you lose control, period.

do I have to explain more the issue?

Zaskarspants
20-11-2018, 11:43
Here is a video of a race at monza at max difficulty with no assists with a thunderstorm. I didn't see the lakes forming alluded to in previous posts. In the second part of the video I deliberately dip my inside wheels into inner corner puddles and the cars reaction appears and feels as you might expect. The AI cars give me a good race, their restricted physics not appearing to be a problem.

I also tried 2 weather slots ( thunder, storm) in ten mins as accelerated weather has in the past caused excessive puddle formation but again I didnt see any excessive accumulation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRFETSkV_ns

MrTulip
20-11-2018, 18:34
basic facts of puddles still applies, dude.
you're going fast on a puddle with your 4 wheels touching it at a very high speed, you're going straight. not sideways.
one side of your car hits the water at a very high speed, you go sideways.
you go on a deep puddle with your 4 wheels at a very high speed, you float straight while you pass on it.
you go at a medium speed on that same puddle, you start to go sideways because you have less speed.
you go slow on that puddle, you're actually getting slowed down heavily due to the bumper catching the water too.
you go on a deep puddle on one side and a not deep puddle on the other side at very high speed, you stay on the top layer.
you pass on the same uneven puddle at a lower speed, you start drifting towards the deepest part due to lower speed.
you go slowly in that puddle, then you can still have control of your car.

in PC2, no matter if the puddle feels deep or not, you go on the water, whatever if the speed is very high, moderate or walking speed, you're on ice.
with ANY tires. slicks(understandable), dirt, road, wet, ice, ANY! also, with ANY car that you drive. race, road, rally, high ground clearance, low ground clearance, F1, Prototype, GT, car, truck, no differences.
you lose control, period.

do I have to explain more the issue?

Try Group A cars (BMW at least). I haven't had single bad race even with very big puddles, as their wet tyre feels superior over puddles to any other wet tyres in PCARS2. Yes, there is some effect to them from big puddles, as they should, but much lesser than, say that what Group 5 cars have.

Bambasti
21-11-2018, 04:07
What I figured out:

Especially older cars (like Ford Capri Zakspeed) suffer heavily.

Feels like way too much hydroplaning while the AI at the same time has an easy day.

What's most annoying: sudden and uneven changes of direction and having hydroplaning at ridiculous low speeds (like 50 km/h). Perhaps needs some tweaks here.

CSL-Drive
22-11-2018, 08:14
The aqua planing is fine.

How hard can it be to fix an A.I. that drives 300 kmh over a road wide and full straight puddle the length of several kilometers, without even 1 inch of asphalt in sight, accelerating full throttle, overtaking, steering full throttle, full braking and flat out braking without a single slide or tire spin or wheel lock. While I cannot even survive 70kmh in neutral without spinning. The suspension of the A.I. compresses fully and the tire flexes to the max, in this fully puddled corner. The A.I. simple drives as if there is no puddle. It is so massively bugged, but appearantly, this is not a video game. Otherwise it would have been fixed. People seem to play without the A.I.
So it's just a driving simulator. Not a racing simulator. There is no other explanation that I can think of. There aren't even yellow flags in this game, no safety car or full course yellow either.

Pretty scam, but hey, atleast I can drive the cars, so whatever. Except for the A.I., the driving itself is fun. So it makes sense people ignore A.I. as it would just take up too much CPU capacity to have a good functioning A.I.

Cholton82
22-11-2018, 09:00
Are these major puddles that people are having problems with in career races ? I haven’t come across any yet , I haven’t explored all disciplines so may have missed them.
There are ones that form on the inside of some corners but I just take a different line and there is one that spans the track At Hockenheim between T11 and Sachs curve but I lift and brake after.

UkHardcore23
22-11-2018, 13:53
Are these major puddles that people are having problems with in career races ? I haven’t come across any yet , I haven’t explored all disciplines so may have missed them.
There are ones that form on the inside of some corners but I just take a different line and there is one that spans the track At Hockenheim between T11 and Sachs curve but I lift and brake after.

Career yes. Last time i played career at Laguna Seca i was spinning off on the straight every lap heading towards the 5th corner before you start heading up hill, The AI no problem at all straight through while im head fist into the barriers every single lap. Slowing down to 40-50mph made no difference which leads me to think these puddles are bugged and not acting how SMS wanted them to act as i just cannot see this being a design choice.

A torrential Knockhill for the most part they are glued to the road, 8.42 the BM goes through a large puddle and locks up but almost immediately gains control, 10.08 is a perfect example of how cars behave going over puddles.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo4u1-xrFKo

Cholton82
22-11-2018, 20:04
Career yes. Last time i played career at Laguna Seca i was spinning off on the straight every lap heading towards the 5th corner before you start heading up hill, The AI no problem at all straight through while im head fist into the barriers every single lap. Slowing down to 40-50mph made no difference which leads me to think these puddles are bugged and not acting how SMS wanted them to act as i just cannot see this being a design choice.

A torrential Knockhill for the most part they are glued to the road, 8.42 the BM goes through a large puddle and locks up but almost immediately gains control, 10.08 is a perfect example of how cars behave going over puddles.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo4u1-xrFKo


Which career race is it ?

UkHardcore23
23-11-2018, 14:41
Which career race is it ?

Im away all weekend but now im thinking it could of been a single race. Honestly i dont think puddles make any difference in career or single race i think they are botched in both.

Cholton82
23-11-2018, 14:44
Im away all weekend but now im thinking it could of been a single race. Honestly i dont think puddles make any difference in career or single race i think they are botched in both.

You may be right , I just havenít come across any real bad ones that cover the track or that have caused major problems. That being said I mainly race in the GT3 , WSCC , GEC and PWC so may not have found the right race yet.

UkHardcore23
23-11-2018, 15:46
You may be right , I just haven’t come across any real bad ones that cover the track or that have caused major problems. That being said I mainly race in the GT3 , WSCC , GEC and PWC so may not have found the right race yet.

It doesnt cover the track its just a regular puddle that if hit would hit and would send me off at a right angle head first into the barrier every lap.

The problem with the PS4 Pro version is the poor AF so its very hard to see the puddles until they are 5 yards away. Not sure if PC or or X is the same? I doubt it.

Cholton82
23-11-2018, 17:50
It doesnt cover the track its just a regular puddle that if hit would hit and would send me off at a right angle head first into the barrier every lap.

The problem with the PS4 Pro version is the poor AF so its very hard to see the puddles until they are 5 yards away. Not sure if PC or or X is the same? I doubt it.

Ok , Yes I know where the naughty puddles form so just make sure I take a slightly different line.
They seem pretty clear on the X so easy to avoid but Iíve come a cropper before at T1 Oulton Park , That one sent me head first into the barrier.