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Dave81983
25-02-2018, 10:21
Hi,

I just did an online race at Bathurst which started wet and dried up. It was 15 laps, so not short. It was dry by lap 7 so people pitted, I stayed out. I ended up coming second despite the fact I was a lot slower than a few other drivers.

I tested the wet tyre time afterward. At red bull ring I was only 2 seconds a lap slower than on slicks in hot dry weather. Surely they should be a lot slower than that in the dry. It means that basically unless you're doing an endurance race it's always better to stay out on wets than pit for slicks.

Dave.

Mad Al
25-02-2018, 10:27
Hi,

I just did an online race at Bathurst which started wet and dried up. It was 15 laps, so not short. It was dry by lap 7 so people pitted, I stayed out. I ended up coming second despite the fact I was a lot slower than a few other drivers.

I tested the wet tyre time afterward. At red bull ring I was only 2 seconds a lap slower than on slicks in hot dry weather. Surely they should be a lot slower than that in the dry. It means that basically unless you're doing an endurance race it's always better to stay out on wets than pit for slicks.

Dave.

Just like in real life... you need to work out if a pit stop is worth the time lost and that will depend on how, fast a track is drying, how much distance is left to go, how fast your tyres are degrading/wearing and if you can maintain a decent pace without cooking the tyres

Jussi Karjalainen
26-02-2018, 00:15
Wet tyres are really soft, sticky rubber, even more so than most soft compounds. To an extent the only reason why they'd be slower than slicks in the dry is overheating and the grooving to some extent (both are likely reasons why racing teams often use rain tyres for winter tests when it's so cold even Softs don't heat up quickly enough). Two seconds per lap is pretty much completely non-competitive so doesn't sound at least destructively too quick in the dry.

And yeah, for sprint races you really want to avoid pitting, it eats up a lot of time and getting it back from faster tyres can be hit or miss unless you have quite a few laps to spend closing the gap.

sylekta
26-02-2018, 00:33
how long does it take to pit for slicks ~30 seconds? if you see the guy in front/behind pit for slicks, and you are going to be 2-3s seconds a lap slower, will they catch you before the end of the race? if the answer is no then you gotta gamble by staying out imo

bmanic
26-02-2018, 06:15
Not sure about real life GT3 compounds but my overall feel of the wet tires is that temperature is not building up fast enough in pCars 2 and also conversely they are not cooled down enough by standing water (easy to test on a wet track once the sun comes out). If this balance was a bit tighter it would mean wets are less viable once the track drys out and you'd have to maintain their temperatures by making sure you are in wet patches every now and then.

Right now they feel way too "safe" and conservative, almost as if the fantastic livetrack tech isn't being used to it's full potential. This leads to them feeling too fast in the dry as they don't heat up brutally enough.

Could be I'm wrong about this though.. but in various racing series they do talk about the wets falling off a cliff once the track starts drying. I've never ever experienced anything like that in pCars 2. Only gradual and very conservative wear and heating.

Gav88888
26-02-2018, 07:36
I did the same sort of race over the weekend, wet to dry, 5 laps wet, 5 with a drying line and 10 laps were dry and the AI pitted for slicks but I stayed on wets watching my laptimes and waiting for the temps to get too high before pitting. It never happened, I was running the same times on slicks as wets, and the temps never went over 90 front and rears so no reason to pit, stayed out and won comfortably.

I could be wrong but I thought the wets go red after 3 dry laps and become slippery and difficult to drive, but that didn't happen. I am on XB1 and was testing max grids and noticed the rear slicks kept going cold when doing dry qualifying, ie about 60 degrees on the rears, but the fronts stayed about 80 which is about right, so that might be why the wets lasted in the race? This was a TC race in the BMW at Donny.

Jussi Karjalainen
26-02-2018, 08:22
I did the same sort of race over the weekend, wet to dry, 5 laps wet, 5 with a drying line and 10 laps were dry and the AI pitted for slicks but I stayed on wets watching my laptimes and waiting for the temps to get too high before pitting. It never happened, I was running the same times on slicks as wets, and the temps never went over 90 front and rears so no reason to pit, stayed out and won comfortably.

I could be wrong but I thought the wets go red after 3 dry laps and become slippery and difficult to drive, but that didn't happen. I am on XB1 and was testing max grids and noticed the rear slicks kept going cold when doing dry qualifying, ie about 60 degrees on the rears, but the fronts stayed about 80 which is about right, so that might be why the wets lasted in the race? This was a TC race in the BMW at Donny.Now that sounds a lot more serious. Can you tell me more about the exact conditions of the race (mainly track and date) so that we can investigate closer?

On the slicks staying cold, were those soft or hard slicks?

Gav88888
26-02-2018, 10:23
No worries mate, it was Donnington in Summer, end of June I think it was, midday race. I did qualifying 1hr, same date, midday and it was clear weather. I was driving the BMW TC using stable which I tweaked to my liking. Slicks only as it doesn't give you the option for soft or hard.

I also ran mixed grid, 32 cars, it was TC, GT1, GTE and LMP1.

Race was 4 weather slots, clear, rain, cloudy and clear. 20 lap race, no time progression but weather sync to race.

As I mentioned in quali the rears slowly went down in temp over a few laps so I ended up adjusting toe in and tire pressures to try and keep some heat in but didn't work. Race started on slicks, then it rained after 5 laps so changed to wets and stayed on wets for the remainder of the race.

Tires were 80 front and rear if I recall when coming out of the pits and slowly went up to 90s but still gave good grip and I noticed on the last lap it was my quickest lap, which was previously set before it raining...

My mate said on the PC version 3 laps on a dry track and the wets are cooked, and he often would drive the wet parts of the track to keep them cool rather than sticking to the drying line, but doing that didn't seem to make a difference.

XB1 with G920. FFB 70,20,100,0,0, Raw.

Ofnir4
26-02-2018, 10:40
With 32 cars tires heating and wear seems to be off, I ran 1h30 at Le mans yesterday (in LMP1), on soft, they were in pristine condition after a triple stint. (in the summer, 45c track in the day)

At bathurst, 32 cars again, max temp of the soft in summer was 105 at the top of the hill. Barely made a dent in the soft. (GT3)

But at indy, the temp keep rising until I get 300F in all tires but the front left. In qualifying (wet to dry) the wets did just fine, overheating once the track was dry enough.

You may ask, why soft in summer ? Because with 32 cars, the hard tires just don't heat up or retain the heat at the start, after 5 laps of zhuhai they were at 60c in the R8 LMP900.

Sankyo
26-02-2018, 10:44
With 32 cars tires heating and wear seems to be off, I ran 1h30 at Le mans yesterday (in LMP1), on soft, they were in pristine condition after a triple stint. (in the summer, 45c track in the day)

At bathurst, 32 cars again, max temp of the soft in summer was 105 at the top of the hill. Barely made a dent in the soft. (GT3)

But at indy, the temp keep rising until I get 300F in all tires but the front left. In qualifying (wet to dry) the wets did just fine, overheating once the track was dry enough.

You may ask, why soft in summer ? Because with 32 cars, the hard tires just don't heat up or retain the heat at the start, after 5 laps of zhuhai they were at 60c in the R8 LMP900.
Did you verify whether the tyre heating changed when using less AI opponents?

Gav88888
26-02-2018, 10:47
I did wonder if this was a bug relating to max grids on XB1, given the many discussions regarding this and the impact on car handling, but I didn't personally re-run the TC race I did with only say 10 cars, but its a good shout and I will do it tonight or tomorrow night.

Ofnir4
26-02-2018, 11:35
Did you verify whether the tyre heating changed when using less AI opponents?

For le Mans, yes, I've done that race with 16, 22 and 32 cars a number of times. With 16 cars, after 4 or 5 laps at race pace, the (soft) tires is halfway dead, usually the max temp I get is at the end of the esses, around a 105, going gown to 75-70 before the first kink.

At 32 cars, I'm running 85-95 everywhere, porsche curves going flat out ? 95 at 1.86 bars front and 1.85 rear.
Esses ? 95?
End of the first straight ? 85
It never goes cold or hot (you would expect it to do so), night or day. As it stays in the perfect temperatures, I keep pushing it, getting into porsche at 220kph, the right-hander before maison blanche easily at 220 again.

The left-hand in the esses, 175kph at night, no sign of any overheating., even when I push like hell from Porsche all the way to Tertre Rouge.

Indy it's another story, I did test when talking to Bealdor about the Pull of asymetrical setups, but didn't run long enough to get to overheating (I ran 17, 20, 22, 24, 26 and 32 cars if I recall correctly), I ran 5 or 6 laps with the two default setups each time, but in the race I got into "way-over-the top" heat around lap 10-12. So no real data here.

sas5320
26-02-2018, 11:58
I also ran mixed grid, 32 cars ...
XB1 with G920. FFB 70,20,100,0,0, Raw.

The player physics is known to break down after 13 AI. It's a long time known issue on original XB1 (XB1X runs fine with all 32 AI as does all flavors of PS4).

For all of you on XB1 you can only use up to 13 AI after patch 4 or your player physics is not what SMS really intended. And therefore we cannot take your reports as seriously if you use high AI count. Original XB1 is definitely not strong enough to run full AI grids, this has been known since launch.

Ofnir4
26-02-2018, 12:38
13

Made up number.

Anyway, who is the Dev here, you or Jussi ? I think he'll take any info he deems useful.

Gav88888
26-02-2018, 13:43
The player physics is known to break down after 13 AI. It's a long time known issue on original XB1 (XB1X runs fine with all 32 AI as does all flavors of PS4).

For all of you on XB1 you can only use up to 13 AI after patch 4 or your player physics is not what SMS really intended. And therefore we cannot take your reports as seriously if you use high AI count. Original XB1 is definitely not strong enough to run full AI grids, this has been known since launch.

Have you spent any time in the XB PC2 forum, everyone is well aware of the AI bug with max grids, its the first thing I tested with patch 4. I did say in my comments that I was testing max grids and I raised the question about tyre temps, Jussi said that isn't right and asked for more details.

Also 13 AI for some classes, 16 for others, if you add in smaller tracks you can bump up the AI further so its not set in stone 13 AI across the board, despite the weird tire temps I saw max grid with TC was enjoyable and the car handled well.