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View Full Version : Soft or hard?... that is the question



iggy
26-02-2018, 15:26
Is it just me, or did choosing between hard and soft become much more challenging after patch v1.4? From my own personal observations, I would say that for short races ( 30 minutes or less )... bellow 85F track temperatures, soft tires are pretty good, but as track temps reach up to 90F or so, the choice becomes pretty tricky... Above 110F, there's probably very little doubt that hard slicks are the way to go... I don't do a lot of races that go beyond 60 minutes, but I would imagine this whole matter becomes trickier as race lengths increase... what about a race that goes from late afternoon, into the night... lets say the track was 100F during the late afternoon and cooled to 80F or maybe lower at night?

But it seems there's about a 20F range where it gets really hard to decide...

In general what I find is... soft tires on tracks around 75F , there's little doubt that they are the best choice... but at even 85F, if I push really hard in a GT4 car, soft start to loose side bite when they get warm... braking and accelerating work reasonably well still, but when cornering, they just start to feel like they loose too much as they get warm. Yet, at the same time, hard tires, particularly on these relatively light cars with little down force, the hard tires just seem really hard to heat up and they tend to have less braking ability and to some degree cornering, but I notice mostly that braking ability really suffers on cool hard slicks..

As the hard slicks start to warm up on tracks approaching 90F, or 95F, if I can get them warm, they do tend to be a little faster, but still feel like they are a bit slick in corners when the tire itself hasn't warmed up...


But anyway, what are your thoughts on tire compound choices post v1.4 patch? Which cars, what temperatures? what do you feel? what choice do you ultimately make?

AbeWoz
26-02-2018, 15:37
there are numerous discussions/threads on this already. I dont think another one is needed.

But it depends on the class. Jussi said the overlap between softs/hards is greater on LMP/GTE cars than it is on GT3/4.

poirqc
26-02-2018, 15:52
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?55303-Tire-temps-pcars-2

Also, have a look at my signature. There's a golden post.

davidt33
26-02-2018, 17:04
I've found since the latest patch choosing "Automatic by weather" applies the right tyres for whatever situations.

iggy
26-02-2018, 17:10
I've found since the latest patch choosing "Automatic by weather" applies the right tyres for whatever situations.

Wow, I'm not seeing that at all... at least not with GT4 and for sure not for qualifying vs racing. But in general, I just haven't felt this was true at all.

iggy
26-02-2018, 17:17
there are numerous discussions/threads on this already. I dont think another one is needed.

But it depends on the class. Jussi said the overlap between softs/hards is greater on LMP/GTE cars than it is on GT3/4.

Perhaps you could point me to one of these numerous discussions that have already been going on. I did a quick search and came up empty , if I had found some information I wouldn't have started the thread.

iggy
26-02-2018, 17:25
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?55303-Tire-temps-pcars-2

Also, have a look at my signature. There's a golden post.

The posts you have pointed to , all seem related to tire pressure... I have a pretty good handle on that issue ( or at least I think I do )...

What I'm experiencing really is the way the tires feel right in the area of overlap... where soft tires approach their upper temperature level that will maintain reasonable grip, and hard tires don't quite reach the minimum level to achieve optimal grip... I my current case I'm running GT4 class, trying to achieve about 1.7 to 1.8 BAR at the point where I need the most out of the tire ( a couple laps into qualifying... or a couple laps or more into a race ).

Jussi Karjalainen
26-02-2018, 19:59
Perhaps you could point me to one of these numerous discussions that have already been going on. I did a quick search and came up empty , if I had found some information I wouldn't have started the thread.On a really general level, because it can vary*:

Hard tyres are generally at their best starting at around 85C, and tolerate overheating really well compared to the Softs, so 80s, 90s, even the 100s are OK for these.

The Soft option for any given car will normally operate best at cooler temps than the Hard, usually at their best in the 70s and 80s, and losing significant performance by the 90s.

The GT3 Softs in particular were designed primarily as the cold weather option tyre, rather than a general choice. Series running cars like GTE and LMP cars generally have quite open tyre regulations, you're free to use multiple compounds and potentially even multiple suppliers (in 2016 most cars in the LMP2 class ran Dunlops, some ran Michelins), so we made Softs and Hards have a significant amount of overlap. Series running GT3 cars on the other hand almost always have just one tyre supplier, which by and large only bring a single slick compound and a wet compound to each race, meaning your options are "slicks" or "wets". However since we span a lot of ground between different climates, seasons and weather conditions, we couldn't just roll with having the Hard compound as the only option. But we wanted to keep it as the primary option, and for GT3 Softs to be there "just in case".

My personal rule of thumb: If I can't get my Hard tyres to get past 80C consistently, or I see my Softs hitting 90C easily, I make it a point to drive some laps on the other compound to see how it compares. Please do allow the temps to build up though, if you hit 80 C in the first 3 laps on Softs it doesn't mean you won't blow past 90C by lap 6, and likewise it can take a while for Hards to work their way up to full racing temps so a couple of laps isn't enough.

But since there is some overlap, sometimes you can't be exactly sure which one you should use. I tend to favor the Hards in those situations since underheating the Hards is less scary to me than overheating the Softs. =)


*OK so this is getting technical, but some people seem to appreciate it: The tyre temperature you see is measured a few millimeters into the tyre's rubber. It's not the outermost surface layer, because that changes temperatures wildly all the time and would be impossible to read anything useful out of during a race. But in the end it's the temperature of this outermost layer, right at the contact patch that is the important temperature for grip.

The suggested ranges (70s, 80s or 90s etc.) for the shown tyre temp are the rough ranges where you'll pretty consistently hit the optimum contact patch temperature during turns, but this can change depending on driving style and track type.

For example Soft tyres tend to heat up easier, and have a lower operating range. So when you're driving down a straight and there's not that much going on, the surface of the tyre cools down (even below the temperature shown), and when you brake and enter the corner, it starts rising again as the tyre is strained. Soft tyres have better grip than Hard tyres when cool, so the initial grip sensation here is usually better, but if the corner lasts too long or you turn your wheel too much and constantly scrub the tyres, the surface layer can overheat beyond its optimum performance window. So you might find the initial response better, while continued cornering might feel like the tyres are eventually washing out.

On the other side the Hards have less grip when they're cooled down to the same temps as the Softs, so you might find initial response on them to be worse when the surface layer is still cool, but as you press the tyres through the corner their grip starts to improve and you can lean on them harder, the opposite of the Softs.

So a driver with a really neat, smooth style with absolutely minimal steering input might be faster on Softs while a more heavy handed driver might be faster on the Hards, even in the same track conditions. How the corners are divided between long sweepers and short tight bends could throw this off in either direction as well. And of course at the extremes you can have conditions so hot that the Softs never get a chance to work, or so cold that you can't push the Hards up to the temps they like.

Like with many things, there is no one easy answer that always works. Sometimes it's pretty obvious (a track like Le Mans on a cold winter night preeeeetty likely won't favor hard tyres, and the sweepers of Algarve and Catalunya can be murder for Softs), but often it's not a clear cut decision at all. Best thing to do then is to try both and see what happens, and as you rack up experience your guesses will get better.

lotsofsmog
26-02-2018, 20:40
It's good to have you back on the forums

Jussi Karjalainen
26-02-2018, 23:05
It's good to have you back on the forumsIt's good to be back.

Hilazza
26-02-2018, 23:11
If i'm not mistaken what you run comes down to

Track layout
Number of laps
Track/Ambient temperature.

AbeWoz
26-02-2018, 23:29
If i'm not mistaken what you run comes down to

Track/Ambient temperature
Track layout
Number of laps.

FTFW ;)

Jussi Karjalainen
26-02-2018, 23:56
If i'm not mistaken what you run comes down to

Track layout
Number of laps
Track/Ambient temperature.And sometimes driving style and setup. And potentially whether there are others on the track (drafting doesn't mean just less drag, it also means less downforce, even through the corners)... =)

STaLLiOnO
27-02-2018, 00:14
On a really general level, because it can vary*:

Hard tyres are generally at their best starting at around 85C, and tolerate overheating really well compared to the Softs, so 80s, 90s, even the 100s are OK for these.

The Soft option for any given car will normally operate best at cooler temps than the Hard, usually at their best in the 70s and 80s, and losing significant performance by the 90s.

The GT3 Softs in particular were designed primarily as the cold weather option tyre, rather than a general choice. Series running cars like GTE and LMP cars generally have quite open tyre regulations, you're free to use multiple compounds and potentially even multiple suppliers (in 2016 most cars in the LMP2 class ran Dunlops, some ran Michelins), so we made Softs and Hards have a significant amount of overlap. Series running GT3 cars on the other hand almost always have just one tyre supplier, which by and large only bring a single slick compound and a wet compound to each race, meaning your options are "slicks" or "wets". However since we span a lot of ground between different climates, seasons and weather conditions, we couldn't just roll with having the Hard compound as the only option. But we wanted to keep it as the primary option, and for GT3 Softs to be there "just in case".

My personal rule of thumb: If I can't get my Hard tyres to get past 80C consistently, or I see my Softs hitting 90C easily, I make it a point to drive some laps on the other compound to see how it compares. Please do allow the temps to build up though, if you hit 80 C in the first 3 laps on Softs it doesn't mean you won't blow past 90C by lap 6, and likewise it can take a while for Hards to work their way up to full racing temps so a couple of laps isn't enough.

But since there is some overlap, sometimes you can't be exactly sure which one you should use. I tend to favor the Hards in those situations since underheating the Hards is less scary to me than overheating the Softs. =)


*OK so this is getting technical, but some people seem to appreciate it: The tyre temperature you see is measured a few millimeters into the tyre's rubber. It's not the outermost surface layer, because that changes temperatures wildly all the time and would be impossible to read anything useful out of during a race. But in the end it's the temperature of this outermost layer, right at the contact patch that is the important temperature for grip.

The suggested ranges (70s, 80s or 90s etc.) for the shown tyre temp are the rough ranges where you'll pretty consistently hit the optimum contact patch temperature during turns, but this can change depending on driving style and track type.

For example Soft tyres tend to heat up easier, and have a lower operating range. So when you're driving down a straight and there's not that much going on, the surface of the tyre cools down (even below the temperature shown), and when you brake and enter the corner, it starts rising again as the tyre is strained. Soft tyres have better grip than Hard tyres when cool, so the initial grip sensation here is usually better, but if the corner lasts too long or you turn your wheel too much and constantly scrub the tyres, the surface layer can overheat beyond its optimum performance window. So you might find the initial response better, while continued cornering might feel like the tyres are eventually washing out.

On the other side the Hards have less grip when they're cooled down to the same temps as the Softs, so you might find initial response on them to be worse when the surface layer is still cool, but as you press the tyres through the corner their grip starts to improve and you can lean on them harder, the opposite of the Softs.

So a driver with a really neat, smooth style with absolutely minimal steering input might be faster on Softs while a more heavy handed driver might be faster on the Hards, even in the same track conditions. How the corners are divided between long sweepers and short tight bends could throw this off in either direction as well. And of course at the extremes you can have conditions so hot that the Softs never get a chance to work, or so cold that you can't push the Hards up to the temps they like.

Like with many things, there is no one easy answer that always works. Sometimes it's pretty obvious (a track like Le Mans on a cold winter night preeeeetty likely won't favor hard tyres, and the sweepers of Algarve and Catalunya can be murder for Softs), but often it's not a clear cut decision at all. Best thing to do then is to try both and see what happens, and as you rack up experience your guesses will get better.

I'm not the best Tuner at all. So use Softs in the 50-80 temperature mark. Then Hards in 90 and above. Okay, what starting PSI, would you use in 50-80 Soft compound and hards in 90 and above?

AbeWoz
27-02-2018, 02:14
I'm not the best Tuner at all. So use Softs in the 50-80 temperature mark. Then Hards in 90 and above. Okay, what starting PSI, would you use in 50-80 Soft compound and hards in 90 and above?

whatever PSI is needed to get them to 1.8bar/26PSI when hot. It's the same as whether to use softs or hards. It varies greatly on temperature, car, track, driving style, race distance, car setup. As Jussi said, there is no one answer.

iggy
27-02-2018, 12:51
Okay, what starting PSI, would you use in 50-80 Soft compound and hards in 90 and above?

I'm no expert at all... but I do know that the tire ( tyre ) pressures that are ideal, vary from one car class to another... As far as I know, you have to figure out what temperature you can get your tires up to for any particular tire/track/conditions... and then adjust tire pressure such that it gets pretty close to the optimum pressure for that particular type of tire during the majority of the race your running. No way to give a general pressure setting for cold tires, because every racer builds up heat in tires differently... I find that sometimes, I need higher pressures for qualifying because the tires start out cold, than I do for racing, because tires start out warm...

IMHO , the best information about tire pressure is the following post, by Casey Ringley ( he works for SMS and is clearly someone who knows a lot of technical information about how stuff works in PC2 )

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?57541-Project-CARS-2-Tyre-Temps

iggy
27-02-2018, 13:58
On a really general level, because it can vary*:

Hard tyres are generally at their best starting at around 85C, and tolerate overheating really well compared to the Softs, so 80s, 90s, even the 100s are OK for these.

The Soft option for any given car will normally operate best at cooler temps than the Hard, usually at their best in the 70s and 80s, and losing significant performance by the 90s.

The GT3 Softs in particular were designed primarily as the cold weather option tyre, rather than a general choice. Series running cars like GTE and LMP cars generally have quite open tyre regulations, you're free to use multiple compounds and potentially even multiple suppliers (in 2016 most cars in the LMP2 class ran Dunlops, some ran Michelins), so we made Softs and Hards have a significant amount of overlap. Series running GT3 cars on the other hand almost always have just one tyre supplier, which by and large only bring a single slick compound and a wet compound to each race, meaning your options are "slicks" or "wets". However since we span a lot of ground between different climates, seasons and weather conditions, we couldn't just roll with having the Hard compound as the only option. But we wanted to keep it as the primary option, and for GT3 Softs to be there "just in case".

My personal rule of thumb: If I can't get my Hard tyres to get past 80C consistently, or I see my Softs hitting 90C easily, I make it a point to drive some laps on the other compound to see how it compares. Please do allow the temps to build up though, if you hit 80 C in the first 3 laps on Softs it doesn't mean you won't blow past 90C by lap 6, and likewise it can take a while for Hards to work their way up to full racing temps so a couple of laps isn't enough.

But since there is some overlap, sometimes you can't be exactly sure which one you should use. I tend to favor the Hards in those situations since underheating the Hards is less scary to me than overheating the Softs. =)


*OK so this is getting technical, but some people seem to appreciate it: The tyre temperature you see is measured a few millimeters into the tyre's rubber. It's not the outermost surface layer, because that changes temperatures wildly all the time and would be impossible to read anything useful out of during a race. But in the end it's the temperature of this outermost layer, right at the contact patch that is the important temperature for grip.

The suggested ranges (70s, 80s or 90s etc.) for the shown tyre temp are the rough ranges where you'll pretty consistently hit the optimum contact patch temperature during turns, but this can change depending on driving style and track type.

For example Soft tyres tend to heat up easier, and have a lower operating range. So when you're driving down a straight and there's not that much going on, the surface of the tyre cools down (even below the temperature shown), and when you brake and enter the corner, it starts rising again as the tyre is strained. Soft tyres have better grip than Hard tyres when cool, so the initial grip sensation here is usually better, but if the corner lasts too long or you turn your wheel too much and constantly scrub the tyres, the surface layer can overheat beyond its optimum performance window. So you might find the initial response better, while continued cornering might feel like the tyres are eventually washing out.

On the other side the Hards have less grip when they're cooled down to the same temps as the Softs, so you might find initial response on them to be worse when the surface layer is still cool, but as you press the tyres through the corner their grip starts to improve and you can lean on them harder, the opposite of the Softs.

So a driver with a really neat, smooth style with absolutely minimal steering input might be faster on Softs while a more heavy handed driver might be faster on the Hards, even in the same track conditions. How the corners are divided between long sweepers and short tight bends could throw this off in either direction as well. And of course at the extremes you can have conditions so hot that the Softs never get a chance to work, or so cold that you can't push the Hards up to the temps they like.

Like with many things, there is no one easy answer that always works. Sometimes it's pretty obvious (a track like Le Mans on a cold winter night preeeeetty likely won't favor hard tyres, and the sweepers of Algarve and Catalunya can be murder for Softs), but often it's not a clear cut decision at all. Best thing to do then is to try both and see what happens, and as you rack up experience your guesses will get better.

Thank you so much for this information, I will have to study it and see if I can apply it... it's exactly the kind of detailed information I had hoped for...

For me right now, I'm focused on GT4 class... and I've been running into the issue where I struggle to get hard tires up above 80C and soft tires will start to push up into 90C, so I seem to be in the 'gray' area where neither hard nor soft is ideal... I think the issue of surface overheating is coming into play too, when I run soft in these conditions. But at least now I have some numbers to work with , and knowledge is being slowly infused into my head about how it's all supposed to be working.

I think now, I'm really starting to get a much better since of just how dynamic it all is and how it's going to become a bit of a chess match in certain situations...