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Roland2
27-02-2018, 00:56
Why are the games street cars suspension like driving a "1960 Cadillac".

To me it seems like most of the street cars in the game all have the same suspension "1960 Cadillac"

I tried a few cars Chev Camaro LT1, Z06 Corvette, Ford mustang, BMW etc .

The suspension movement using the in car camera view is all over the place. etc steering left and right back and forth, the amount of car tilt is like a 1960's car.

Also if you step on and off the gas the front end jumps up and down again like a 1960's car. The amount of body roll and up and down movement doesn't seem correct for these modern cars in the game.

Then I tried the following experiment. Set the suspension setup from the C7R GT3 car (all suspension settings) apply them to the C7 Z06 Street Car and compare the differences. The GT3 car behaves like what I know a Z06 corvette is like, but yet with the street car using the C7R suspension settings it still floats like a "1960 Cadillac"

Mahjik
27-02-2018, 13:54
Compared to race cars, most street cars handle like boats... There is no comparison from a race car suspension to a street car suspension (without including Hypercars that is).

The difference is that in the real world, most people not have the opportunity to drive a full race car. Therefore, their comparisons are between various street cars in which yes the C7 Corvette is going to be stiffer than a Honda Accord. However, if you were to jump into a race prepped car then back into the C7, it will feel like a boat. I've been in many C7's since they were released and they do feel like boats compared to my race car.

In computer sims, we can just hop between various cars. When you go from a race prepped car to a street car, if the street car doesn't feel like a boat then something is wrong.

Roland2
27-02-2018, 15:04
Compared to race cars, most street cars handle like boats... There is no comparison from a race car suspension to a street car suspension (without including Hypercars that is).

The difference is that in the real world, most people not have the opportunity to drive a full race car. Therefore, their comparisons are between various street cars in which yes the C7 Corvette is going to be stiffer than a Honda Accord. However, if you were to jump into a race prepped car then back into the C7, it will feel like a boat. I've been in many C7's since they were released and they do feel like boats compared to my race car.

In computer sims, we can just hop between various cars. When you go from a race prepped car to a street car, if the street car doesn't feel like a boat then something is wrong.

Then why when I use the suspension setup from the C7R GT3 car I don't get the same results when applied to the C7 Z06 car. Using the same springs / stock settings etc.
I also set the Z06 from the softest to the hardest settings and the results on the screen are the same. "Floats like a Cadillac"

I think the problem is I cannot see any visual changes with the settings changed.

I have driven many C7 Z06's , ford mustangs, at the track (real cars) and in this sim the visual effects are not close to the real car.

I think the visual effect is over exaggerated in the sim. I also noted that depending on the view you use in the game its not consistent.

eg cockpit view vs bumper view. Based on the cockpit bounce I would except 3-4 inches of bumper travel and yet the bumper view looks much more realistic.

So I think if you work backwards getting the bumper travel correct and determine what this should look like in the cockpit view needs to be looked at.

Zaskarspants
27-02-2018, 15:13
A racing GT3 car is a very different thing from the street version of that car, it is not possible to transfer like for like settings and expect the car to handle like a gt3 car.

Roland2
27-02-2018, 15:24
A racing GT3 car is a very different thing from the street version of that car, it is not possible to transfer like for like settings and expect the car to handle like a gt3 car.

Its not the handling I am excepting but the visual movement (what I see). Springs and shock settings roll bars determine how much travel in the suspension and at what rate. While the car wont drive the same due to alignment changes during suspension travel because of design, the visual effect should be similar.

As a test try this. Take the Z06 Corvette street car and change from the softest suspension to the stiffest suspension, and there is no noticeable visual change you see in the cockpit view. The car still floats like a Cadillac.

Its really noticeable when you drive on a straight and swerve back and forth, no visual changes soft vs stiff settings. While the car may corner different in the game, but what your eyes see in the game don't match the settings changed.

bmanic
27-02-2018, 15:24
Then why when I use the suspension setup from the C7R GT3 car I don't get the same results when applied to the C7 Z06 car. Using the same springs / stock settings etc.
I also set the Z06 from the softest to the hardest settings and the results on the screen are the same. "Floats like a Cadillac"

I think the problem is I cannot see any visual changes with the settings changed.

I have driven many C7 Z06's , ford mustangs, at the track (real cars) and in this sim the visual effects are not close to the real car.

I think the visual effect is over exaggerated in the sim. I also noted that depending on the view you use in the game its not consistent.

eg cockpit view vs bumper view. Based on the cockpit bounce I would except 3-4 inches of bumper travel and yet the bumper view looks much more realistic.

So I think if you work backwards getting the bumper travel correct and determine what this should look like in the cockpit view needs to be looked at.

Do you perhaps have exaggerated camera settings? You can minimize the movement if that's your thing.

The cockpit camera in pCars is one of the weak links though.. the view is always 100% "stuck" to the middle of the screen, only rotates and skews around that middle.. so you never have a truly "3D" feel to it all, unlike most of the other sims where the cockpit and virtual driver view is fully separated from everything and runs independently.

This is one of the areas I was hoping would improve for pC2 from version 1 but unfortunately was never iterated upon. Hence the cockpit view is a bit weird and takes some getting used to. I suspect still many of Assetto Corsa vs pC2 physics debates (especially when it comes to suspension movement and car chassis movement) stems from this camera limitation, not from any real physics stuff.

Mahjik
27-02-2018, 16:38
Then why when I use the suspension setup from the C7R GT3 car I don't get the same results when applied to the C7 Z06 car. Using the same springs / stock settings etc.

You cannot just copy spring/damper settings from a race car and then apply them to a street to get the same results. If it were a GT3 car, the suspension geometry would be similar to a street car but the Vette is GTE which just has a shell that looks like the street version. The quality of the dampers is a whole other issue (most race suspensions are almost $30k per corner). Also, race cars have full roll cages. The amount of rigidity a roll cage adds to a car cannot be replicated with without on a cage. It's apples and oranges comparing a race car


I think the problem is I cannot see any visual changes with the settings changed.

Even though you have a lot of adjustments, it doesn't mean those will have radically different physical behavior. Street cars are made to be soft compared to a race car. You cannot simply add stiffer springs and you suddenly end up with a Le Man contending Corvette.


I think the visual effect is over exaggerated in the sim. I also noted that depending on the view you use in the game its not consistent.

Are you using Cockpit or Helmet Cam?

Jussi Karjalainen
27-02-2018, 17:58
Then why when I use the suspension setup from the C7R GT3 car I don't get the same results when applied to the C7 Z06 car. Using the same springs / stock settings etc.
I also set the Z06 from the softest to the hardest settings and the results on the screen are the same. "Floats like a Cadillac"The C7R is a GTE car. =)

At least 3 things affecting this, plus one potential extra:

1. The road car is a good 350 kg heavier. More weight on a spring has a similar effect as having softer springs.

2. They have different suspension layouts with totally different motion ratios. The same numerical spring stiffness won't have the same effect on both. To make the road car as stiff as the default Stable setup on the racing car (which has 200 N/mm front and 170 N/mm rear springs for 3.37 Hz frequency at the front and 3.00 Hz frequency at the rear), you'd need 350 N/mm front and 403 N/mm rear springs, or thereabouts. The stiffest we'll allow the road car to go is 158 N/mm at the front and 280 N/mm at the rear, landing in at 2.48 Hz and 2.53 Hz, which is getting into GT4 territory. Even the Porsche 911 GT3 road car is more in the 2 Hz range in real life.

3. Unless you pick the OEM setup, you're likely running on the incredibly grippy Trofeo R tyres, which will cause the car's motions to be larger than you'd see on tyres it's more normally running with in real life. Grippier tyres mean more forces, which means more squat on acceleration, more dive on braking, more roll in cornering. On the Corsa tyres which are closer to what the real car is usually equipped with the body roll is quite contained:

http://i65.tinypic.com/xq61c.jpg

And there's only around 4 cm (less than two inches) of consistent dive under braking.

Extra: Potential perceptional differences emerging from not being used to seeing body roll on a computer screen, since most sims focus heavily on racing cars instead of road cars, and other perceptional issues emerging from camera settings. There's no difference in how the car's motions are drawn based on the camera (beyond World Movement and G effect settings etc.), the actual body of the car moves the same in all of them (or if there is it's new information to me and I'd have to wonder why we'd implement it). And of course the view you get in a game isn't totally comparable to what you'd see in real life, because in real life the human head and eyes do constant work on filtering the effects of movement, whereas in-game we're much more locked to the car, usually.

Jussi Karjalainen
27-02-2018, 18:09
The dampers could probably stand to be stiffer if we wanted to replicate "Sport Mode" fully though.

hkraft300
27-02-2018, 22:13
Maybe you need to adjust the camera and world movement settings?

You don't want to confuse driver body movement with car body movement. If a race driver had to tune a GTE car with Cadillac seats in it, they wouldn't do very well.

Stewy32
27-02-2018, 22:42
First thing that caught my attention on this thread...the C7.R is a GTE car and for that any points made lose,in my opinion,their validity.

Roland2
28-02-2018, 00:58
First thing that caught my attention on this thread...the C7.R is a GTE car and for that any points made lose,in my opinion,their validity.

I think you are confusing car handling vs the visual effect in the game. Cars with similar suspension settings (stiffness) should produce a similar visual impression nothing more.

There was never a reference that the Z06 would handle like the C7.R. You are completing missing the point. Its all about the visual impression you get from the cockpit view. Its over exaggeration, and
changing the settings of the suspension on the Z06 from stiffest to softest settings has no effect in your visual impression.

Roland2
28-02-2018, 01:09
You cannot just copy spring/damper settings from a race car and then apply them to a street to get the same results.
Even though you have a lot of adjustments, it doesn't mean those will have radically different physical behavior. Street cars are made to be soft compared to a race car. You cannot simply add stiffer springs and you suddenly end up with a Le Man contending Corvette.


We are not expecting the car to handle like the race car as you stated. But the mathematics of spring rates, damping rates etc doesn't care if its on a GT3 car or a street car. Force is Force when applied in any direction. The main difference would be the amount of force from the weight at each corner, the difference in track width, angles of the force. This would effect how the weight is transferred front to back and side to side.

But removing the GT3 car from the picture and only making changes to the Z06 car from stiffest to softest settings has no visual effect in the game when it should.

I believe the game has a default visual effect for the car regardless of the suspension settings. That is the only point. Street Cars in the game all have a similar 60's Cadillac look and feel. There is a big difference between a Z06 and a BMW but not in this game based on what your eyes see.

Roland2
28-02-2018, 01:21
Do you perhaps have exaggerated camera settings? You can minimize the movement if that's your thing.(especially when it comes to suspension movement and car chassis movement) stems from this camera limitation, not from any real physics stuff.

I am using the cockpit view and not the helmet view. I have already turned everything off I can find in the game settings.

And I agree it not how the car handles but what my eyes see. All the Street Cars have the same visual effect.

The amount of visual effect from the bumper / hood views are not consistent when compared to the cockpit views. The visual effects are over exaggerated.

blinkngone
28-02-2018, 01:43
We are not expecting the car to handle like the race car as you stated. But the mathematics of spring rates, damping rates etc doesn't care if its on a GT3 car or a street car. Force is Force when applied in any direction. The main difference would be the amount of force from the weight at each corner, the difference in track width, angles of the force. This would effect how the weight is transferred front to back and side to side.

But removing the GT3 car from the picture and only making changes to the Z06 car from stiffest to softest settings has no visual effect in the game when it should.

I believe the game has a default visual effect for the car regardless of the suspension settings. That is the only point. Street Cars in the game all have a similar 60's Cadillac look and feel. There is a big difference between a Z06 and a BMW but not in this game based on what your eyes see.
Hi, to me this view produces the 60s caddy bounce(or small boat in a light chop). To me it's as if the car is broken in half, coming apart and going back together. The other views are better though.
250853

Roland2
28-02-2018, 04:23
The C7R is a GTE car. =)

At least 3 things affecting this, plus one potential extra:

1. The road car is a good 350 kg heavier. More weight on a spring has a similar effect as having softer springs.

2. They have different suspension layouts with totally different motion ratios. The same numerical spring stiffness won't have the same effect on both. To make the road car as stiff as the default Stable setup on the racing car (which has 200 N/mm front and 170 N/mm rear springs for 3.37 Hz frequency at the front and 3.00 Hz frequency at the rear), you'd need 350 N/mm front and 403 N/mm rear springs, or thereabouts. The stiffest we'll allow the road car to go is 158 N/mm at the front and 280 N/mm at the rear, landing in at 2.48 Hz and 2.53 Hz, which is getting into GT4 territory. Even the Porsche 911 GT3 road car is more in the 2 Hz range in real life.

3. Unless you pick the OEM setup, you're likely running on the incredibly grippy Trofeo R tyres, which will cause the car's motions to be larger than you'd see on tyres it's more normally running with in real life. Grippier tyres mean more forces, which means more squat on acceleration, more dive on braking, more roll in cornering. On the Corsa tyres which are closer to what the real car is usually equipped with the body roll is quite contained:

http://i65.tinypic.com/xq61c.jpg

And there's only around 4 cm (less than two inches) of consistent dive under braking.

Extra: Potential perceptional differences emerging from not being used to seeing body roll on a computer screen, since most sims focus heavily on racing cars instead of road cars, and other perceptional issues emerging from camera settings. There's no difference in how the car's motions are drawn based on the camera (beyond World Movement and G effect settings etc.), the actual body of the car moves the same in all of them (or if there is it's new information to me and I'd have to wonder why we'd implement it). And of course the view you get in a game isn't totally comparable to what you'd see in real life, because in real life the human head and eyes do constant work on filtering the effects of movement, whereas in-game we're much more locked to the car, usually.

Is there a data logger that I can use to see the suspension movement and compare soft vs stiff. I know the HUD displays some info, but without video capture I am not sure if would be easy to compare before and after.

g.stew
28-02-2018, 06:26
I am using the cockpit view and not the helmet view. I have already turned everything off I can find in the game settings.

When you said this, it made me think of something. Did you set your World Movement in the camera settings to zero? I just tried this car with it set like that and it feels almost like a boat. If I set it to 100, it's much more drivable for me. That effect does feel more exaggerated in this car. I think a setting of zero gives you a fixed horizon/world so all the motion you get is with the car moving around you. I have mine set normally around 82 which felt best for me. Some people have said before that they get motion sick with it set to zero.

Anyway, when you mentioned you had turned everything off, it made me think of that since I did the same thing at first.

hkraft300
28-02-2018, 07:41
Is there a data logger that I can use to see the suspension movement and compare soft vs stiff. I know the HUD displays some info, but without video capture I am not sure if would be easy to compare before and after.

VRhive by mikeyTT is very comprehensive. Don't think it's been updated for PC2 extra UDP info.

Mr Schumacher
28-02-2018, 09:23
[QUOTE=Jussi Karjalainen;1482799]The C7R is a GTE car. =)

The C7R is a GTLM car =) #IMSA #All Hail Jan Magnuson.. well have none of that WEC GTE madness.. ;-)

blinkngone
28-02-2018, 10:12
When you said this, it made me think of something. Did you set your World Movement in the camera settings to zero? I just tried this car with it set like that and it feels almost like a boat. If I set it to 100, it's much more drivable for me. That effect does feel more exaggerated in this car. I think a setting of zero gives you a fixed horizon/world so all the motion you get is with the car moving around you. I have mine set normally around 82 which felt best for me. Some people have said before that they get motion sick with it set to zero.

Anyway, when you mentioned you had turned everything off, it made me think of that since I did the same thing at first.

Thanks, fixed it for me.

Jussi Karjalainen
28-02-2018, 10:15
I don't know of a logger that can write down suspension metrics like that unfortunately. I did compare the roll behavior in the Vette between minimum and maximum anti-roll bars, and there was a good few cm of difference in compression on either side between the two settings.

If you really want to compare somewhat similar setups for the two, then this is probably as close as you can get:

250871

Ready-made setups there (if you're on PC these go to Documents\Project CARS 2\savegame\(SteamID)\project cars 2\tuningsetups), screenshots here.

http://i65.tinypic.com/2re2vf7.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/k3l03.jpg

Setups that are about as close (from a springs and dampers point of view) as you can get right now. It won't be the same though, the racing car doesn't go as soft as the road car is at its stiffest, the racing car doesn't ride as high as the road car does on its lowest setting, their center of gravities are at very different heights, the racing car is lighter, has better inertia properties, they have different amounts of anti-dive, anti-squat and different front/rear roll center heights for the suspension linkages, they have different amounts of suspension travel, different built in bump stops (which are separate from the ones you can adjust), different tyres generating different amount of forces... They're just too different from exact comparisons like that, you'll always notice some differences between how they move on their springs, even if you get them very close to each other.

Also threw in a damper setup that's probably closer to the Sport Mode on a modern sports car.


http://i65.tinypic.com/122g3rp.jpg

Jussi Karjalainen
28-02-2018, 10:39
The C7R is a GTLM car =) #IMSA #All Hail Jan Magnuson.. well have none of that WEC GTE madness.. ;-)No, it's a GTE car, it's allowed as is to take part in GTE competition. =)

The M6 GTLM on the other hand IS a GTLM car, and is not allowed in general GTE competition.

Ofnir4
28-02-2018, 13:33
Thank the sim gods for that comment ! :applause:

And I'l let myself out, I'm banned from any GTLM v. GTE discussions.

Roland2
28-02-2018, 14:53
When you said this, it made me think of something. Did you set your World Movement in the camera settings to zero? I just tried this car with it set like that and it feels almost like a boat. If I set it to 100, it's much more drivable for me. That effect does feel more exaggerated in this car. I think a setting of zero gives you a fixed horizon/world so all the motion you get is with the car moving around you. I have mine set normally around 82 which felt best for me. Some people have said before that they get motion sick with it set to zero.

Anyway, when you mentioned you had turned everything off, it made me think of that since I did the same thing at first.

Yes set to 0, I will try your suggestion to see if the visual impression changes.

Roland2
01-03-2018, 00:45
When you said this, it made me think of something. Did you set your World Movement in the camera settings to zero? I just tried this car with it set like that and it feels almost like a boat. If I set it to 100, it's much more drivable for me. That effect does feel more exaggerated in this car. I think a setting of zero gives you a fixed horizon/world so all the motion you get is with the car moving around you. I have mine set normally around 82 which felt best for me. Some people have said before that they get motion sick with it set to zero.

Anyway, when you mentioned you had turned everything off, it made me think of that since I did the same thing at first.

Thanks for the suggestion, The boat is now in the dock. Works for me. What I don't understand why this setting doesn't effect the C7R car and mostly street cars.

texjet454
02-03-2018, 01:35
Don't know if this is really relevant here but I do know that at least one of the street cars isn't modeled all that great. My daily driver is a 2016 Ford Mustang GT and it sounds, revs and handles nothing like the car in game. Pcars 2 is a fantastic sim but it does miss the mark with at least one of the street cars.

Roland2
03-03-2018, 00:05
Don't know if this is really relevant here but I do know that at least one of the street cars isn't modeled all that great. My daily driver is a 2016 Ford Mustang GT and it sounds, revs and handles nothing like the car in game. Pcars 2 is a fantastic sim but it does miss the mark with at least one of the street cars.

Same thing with the C7 Z06 corvette, drives nothing like the real Z06, also I agree the Mustang, Camaro is also way off.

I find it difficult to drive any of these cars at speed and be nice and smooth. The cars drift all over the place without steering input simulating over steer in a un realistic manner.

eg: drive on a straight road 2nd gear and accelerate in the straight line, the car with drift left or right with no steering input, and if you try to counter steer you get a 1/2 sec delay before anything happens and then you get into a pendulum effect going back and forth trying to settle the car. The real cars just drive nice and straight (TC)(AH) on. Not in this game.

Kostman22
03-03-2018, 00:22
Why are the games street cars suspension like driving a "1960 Cadillac".

To me it seems like most of the street cars in the game all have the same suspension "1960 Cadillac"

I tried a few cars Chev Camaro LT1, Z06 Corvette, Ford mustang, BMW etc .

The suspension movement using the in car camera view is all over the place. etc steering left and right back and forth, the amount of car tilt is like a 1960's car.

Also if you step on and off the gas the front end jumps up and down again like a 1960's car. The amount of body roll and up and down movement doesn't seem correct for these modern cars in the game.

Then I tried the following experiment. Set the suspension setup from the C7R GT3 car (all suspension settings) apply them to the C7 Z06 Street Car and compare the differences. The GT3 car behaves like what I know a Z06 corvette is like, but yet with the street car using the C7R suspension settings it still floats like a "1960 Cadillac"

Cuz you need to get-good.

hkraft300
03-03-2018, 00:36
Same thing with the C7 Z06 corvette, drives nothing like the real Z06, also I agree the Mustang, Camaro is also way off.

I find it difficult to drive any of these cars at speed and be nice and smooth. The cars drift all over the place without steering input simulating over steer in a un realistic manner.

eg: drive on a straight road 2nd gear and accelerate in the straight line, the car with drift left or right with no steering input, and if you try to counter steer you get a 1/2 sec delay before anything happens and then you get into a pendulum effect going back and forth trying to settle the car. The real cars just drive nice and straight (TC)(AH) on. Not in this game.

You failed to differentiate between suspension/body movement from camera movement in the game...

But according to you the in game cars are "way off".

Credibility.

Roland2
03-03-2018, 04:46
Cuz you need to get-good.

I guess you have never had a chance to drive the real car on a track. If you had any real track experience with the Mustang,Camaro or Corvette, you would not make that comment.

Would you like to meet up at a real track ? I have no desire to learn bad habits because of poor sim behavior.

The "pendulum effect" in sims is a well know problem and some handle it better than others.

Drive the C7 in GT Sport vs PC2, GT Sports wins hands down with it comes to realistic car handling.

Roland2
03-03-2018, 05:18
You failed to differentiate between suspension/body movement from camera movement in the game...

But according to you the in game cars are "way off".

Seems legit.

Once you get passed the game settings to get the visual part working more realistic you start to notice how poorly the "Street cars" behave in this game.

Over steer skids in the game are poorly represented in the sim

All you need to do is examine real life skid patterns compared to the sim and you start to see they are not similar.

Here is an example of PC2 on throttle over steer.

view to the 25 sec mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNugeqOuXKk

now do the same in other sims the car usually ends up off the track on the left side. (similar to real life skid patterns as well) The skid pattern in the video is usually represented by "off throttle over steer" or "braking over steer" where the weight is transferred to the front wheels (more grip) and off the rear wheels (less grip). The opposite happens with on throttle over steer, weight is transferred to the rear wheels and remove from the front wheels producing understeer (pushing) to the point where enough rear wheel spin (to much throttle or to fast throttle) and you loose grip both front and rear.

hkraft300
03-03-2018, 05:21
...

Drive the C7 in GT Sport vs PC2, GT Sports wins hands down with it comes to realistic car handling.

:glee:
Found me a new sig.

Pekka Salminen
03-03-2018, 09:37
Once you get passed the game settings to get the visual part working more realistic you start to notice how poorly the "Street cars" behave in this game.

Over steer skids in the game are poorly represented in the sim

All you need to do is examine real life skid patterns compared to the sim and you start to see they are not similar.

Here is an example of PC2 on throttle over steer.

view to the 25 sec mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNugeqOuXKk

now do the same in other sims the car usually ends up off the track on the left side. (similar to real life skid patterns as well) The skid pattern in the video is usually represented by "off throttle over steer" or "braking over steer" where the weight is transferred to the front wheels (more grip) and off the rear wheels (less grip). The opposite happens with on throttle over steer, weight is transferred to the rear wheels and remove from the front wheels producing understeer (pushing) to the point where enough rear wheel spin (to much throttle or to fast throttle) and you loose grip both front and rear.

So you demonstrate your point by using an ancient video of a BUG relating to grip levels in online lobby! A bug that shouldn't even happen anymore.
And IMO it tells enough of your understanding of basic physics if you think that GTSport handling is more realistic than PCars 2. I mean, GTS physics have been demonstrated to have various fundamental flaws, while in PCars 2 all flaws I have seen have been related to bugs or incorrect parameters, but never anything really fundamental flaws in the physics system.

Juiced46
03-03-2018, 14:17
Drive the C7 in GT Sport vs PC2, GT Sports wins hands down with it comes to realistic car handling.

It all makes sense now.....

No, GT Sport does not have more realistic car handling. Neither does Forza. Those cars in those games are just EASIER to drive. That does not make the handling of the game better.

Roland2
03-03-2018, 15:41
So you demonstrate your point by using an ancient video of a BUG relating to grip levels in online lobby! A bug that shouldn't even happen anymore.
And IMO it tells enough of your understanding of basic physics if you think that GTSport handling is more realistic than PCars 2. I mean, GTS physics have been demonstrated to have various fundamental flaws, while in PCars 2 all flaws I have seen have been related to bugs or incorrect parameters, but never anything really fundamental flaws in the physics system.

Sorry but this still happens in the game with the 3 street cars I tested "Camaro, Mustang , Z06 Corvette.

Have you ever driven any of these cars on a "Real Track" ? you wouldn't make your comment if you have. You clearly are a sim only driver.

"While in PCars2 all flaws I have seen have been related to bugs or incorrect parameters"

incorrect parameters, when was the last time you needed to enter the correct parameters in your real car so it would drive correct.

Roland2
03-03-2018, 15:47
It all makes sense now.....

No, GT Sport does not have more realistic car handling. Neither does Forza. Those cars in those games are just EASIER to drive. That does not make the handling of the game better.

What is your stance on "more realistic" Are you comparing the "real car" vs any sim ? If you are saying EASIER to drive, then PC2 for the 3 mentioned street cars is off.

All of the 3 street cars are much easier to drive on a "real track" compared to the sim. So which is off. Your experience with the real cars or your experience with the sims.

I am going to go with "Your experience with "real cars".

But can you explain why the "on throttle over steer" skid pattern is correct when compared to a "real car" ?

Pekka Salminen
03-03-2018, 17:45
Sorry but this still happens in the game with the 3 street cars I tested "Camaro, Mustang , Z06 Corvette.

Have you ever driven any of these cars on a "Real Track" ? you wouldn't make your comment if you have. You clearly are a sim only driver.

"While in PCars2 all flaws I have seen have been related to bugs or incorrect parameters"

incorrect parameters, when was the last time you needed to enter the correct parameters in your real car so it would drive correct.

Do you know how simulation of something works? In driving simulation, there are parameters which estimate, how the car would act in real life in different simulations. Tire grip is pretty much a function, which has parameters for friction coefficients etc. If some parameters are off, the car's handling differs from real world. Some cars (/tires) might have too much/little grip, or the balances between static and skid friction might be off and so on.

And no, I haven't driven those cars in track. But I know enough about basic physics to say that I'm not impressed by your statements. I mean, sure, the tire models or something might not reflect the real world 100%, but at least the handling model does not contain fundamental flaws (not necessarily flaws, simpler physics modelling might be a design choice), as in GTSport.

hkraft300
03-03-2018, 22:33
What is your stance on "more realistic" Are you comparing the "real car" vs any sim ? If you are saying EASIER to drive, then PC2 for the 3 mentioned street cars is off.


Mate, I think you need to go back to the track with some Real cars and get some lessons. Your "real car" and "real track" experience has done little for your credibility so far.

You can't differentiate between camera and car movement. Your understanding of oversteer is questionable as a result. Also... GTS > PC2 :glee:

Real cars are easier to drive in real life than EVERY sim. You get close with motion rigs. I can well slide cars and give my wife a right scare without a thought. Even when it happens unexpectedly.
In a sim I find it harder because lack of g-force and other sensations. It's normal. What's your point? Because you can drive the cars easier GTS and it makes you feel like a Track Master Race God?

Juiced46
03-03-2018, 22:54
What is your stance on "more realistic" Are you comparing the "real car" vs any sim ? If you are saying EASIER to drive, then PC2 for the 3 mentioned street cars is off.

All of the 3 street cars are much easier to drive on a "real track" compared to the sim. So which is off. Your experience with the real cars or your experience with the sims.

I am going to go with "Your experience with "real cars".

But can you explain why the "on throttle over steer" skid pattern is correct when compared to a "real car" ?

Considering I have played all of the games in question. I can tell you GT Sport is not realistic. I think your "realistic" feeling of GT Sport is because when you turn in the car you do not oversteer and spin out. Because GT Sport does not have the same handling physics as PC2 nor the same tire model. PC2 does it better. You think it is realistic because its "easier to drive" That is why when people that come over to PC2 from GT sport or Forza complain, whine etc because THEY CANNOT DRIVE. They are so used to flying into a corner, yanking the wheel and the car sticks and goes around the corner. That by no means makes GT sport more realistic. That just shows the difference between knowing how to drive, and not knowing how to drive properly.

With that being said, my experience driving real life cars is quite extensive. Over the past 17 years I have built, raced, owned many cars of all sorts. I started out my hobby with 1/4 mile racing. Building 8-9 sec street cars for my self and customers. Cars in excess of 1000HP. I have moved over to turning. I have track raced many cars including many M model BMWs (which I also own) Multiple Ferraris (458s and 488s) a few Mclarens as well. Now I am not saying I am a pro race driver. But I will say with my real life experience I have a feel of what a car should feel like when racing in a video game. What I can tell you is that GT Sport and Forza do not replicate on how a car acts realistically in real life. PC2 does it much better.

With that being said, can you explain your real life racing background? Do you have any track experience in any of the cars you mentioned or any cars for that matter.

Roland2
04-03-2018, 00:35
But I know enough about basic physics

Then please describe what "On throttle over steer skid pattern might look like" With the 3 "Street Cars" I get similar results to the video I Linked.

And the only statement I made about GT Sport is about the 3 street cars. Please don't read into it more than that.

Roland2
04-03-2018, 00:44
GTS > PC2 :glee:
Real cars are easier to drive in real life than EVERY sim.

Go back and re-read. The statement was The C7 Z06, Mustang , Camaro "Real cars" are not as difficult to drive as the PC2 sim makes them out to be. In PC2 these cars are very difficult/ unstable to drive.

The comparison with GT Sport was only to show they are much closer to the real cars. And the main problem in PC2 was about "on throttle over steer skid pattern"

Please don't read every other word and blow a fuse. Test them for your self and let me know what you think. How do they drive ? Can you keep the cars on corner exit or do they drift offline ?

I tried 2 courses "Laguna seca" and "nurburgring GP Layout".

Roland2
04-03-2018, 00:52
Considering I have played all of the games in question. I can tell you GT Sport is not realistic. I think your "realistic" feeling of GT Sport is because when you turn in the car you do not oversteer and spin out. Because GT Sport does not have the same handling physics as PC2 nor the same tire model. PC2 does it better. You think it is realistic because its "easier to drive" That is why when people that come over to PC2 from GT sport or Forza complain, whine etc because THEY CANNOT DRIVE. They are so used to flying into a corner, yanking the wheel and the car sticks and goes around the corner. That by no means makes GT sport more realistic. That just shows the difference between knowing how to drive, and not knowing how to drive properly.

Never made the claim GT Sport overall is more realistic. Just the representation of the mentioned 3 "Street Cars" And how these cars display "On throttle over steer" Which isn't part of corner turn in but part of apex unwind and accelerate. And I am doing nothing more than exploring if any one else experiences what I showed in the video "As others called a bug" show "on throttle over steer" where the car crashed in a direction I believe is not realistic. Never claimed it shouldn't over steer, but shouldn't end up where it did.



With that being said, my experience driving real life cars is quite extensive. Over the past 17 years I have built, raced, owned many cars of all sorts. I started out my hobby with 1/4 mile racing. Building 8-9 sec street cars for my self and customers. Cars in excess of 1000HP. I have moved over to turning. I have track raced many cars including many M model BMWs (which I also own) Multiple Ferraris (458s and 488s) a few Mclarens as well. Now I am not saying I am a pro race driver. But I will say with my real life experience I have a feel of what a car should feel like when racing in a video game. What I can tell you is that GT Sport and Forza do not replicate on how a car acts realistically in real life. PC2 does it much better.


If you have great real life experience on a track then tell me what you think "On throttle over steer" skid pattern should look like ?

This has nothing do to with GT Sport VS PC2 "How realistic" they are. The only statement I made is I believe that GT SPORT for the 3 "Street Cars" with on throttle over steer is more realistic. And only because where the car ends up.

But is seems PC2 "gamers" see this as a threat when people try to understand what the game is doing. All I ask is people tell me what you experience in the game with these cars. If you get the same results or different so I can understand what's the difference in what I am doing.

And people like your self that have actual "Road Track" experience may have a different perspective.

Mad Al
04-03-2018, 01:11
From reading what you keep talking about, I'm getting the impression your term "on throttle oversteer" is you asking if the cars should actually be understeering..

Will you please just throw the OEM setup on the cars in question and see if you then think they handle how you think they should (which from reading your previous posts sounds like you want them to UNDERSTEER.)

Roland2
04-03-2018, 05:09
From reading what you keep talking about, I'm getting the impression your term "on throttle oversteer" is you asking if the cars should actually be understeering..

Will you please just throw the OEM setup on the cars in question and see if you then think they handle how you think they should (which from reading your previous posts sounds like you want them to UNDERSTEER.)

Yep they should understeer unless the rear tires brake loose, but also it's the pattern of the skid path.

eg. On the right hand turn near apex start to add throttle and continue to corner exit. Adding throttle should move the weight to the rear, reduce traction on the front (under steer), and when the rear tires brake loose the car should go off track on the left, for me in the game with these 3 "street cars" I get the front end of the cars to pull to the right as if I have the wheel turned right. Behaves like "off throttle over steer" when the weight is shifted to the front, while loosing traction on the rear.

kevin kirk
04-03-2018, 05:29
Why are the games street cars suspension like driving a "1960 Cadillac".

To me it seems like most of the street cars in the game all have the same suspension "1960 Cadillac"

I tried a few cars Chev Camaro LT1, Z06 Corvette, Ford mustang, BMW etc .

The suspension movement using the in car camera view is all over the place. etc steering left and right back and forth, the amount of car tilt is like a 1960's car.

Also if you step on and off the gas the front end jumps up and down again like a 1960's car. The amount of body roll and up and down movement doesn't seem correct for these modern cars in the game.

Then I tried the following experiment. Set the suspension setup from the C7R GT3 car (all suspension settings) apply them to the C7 Z06 Street Car and compare the differences. The GT3 car behaves like what I know a Z06 corvette is like, but yet with the street car using the C7R suspension settings it still floats like a "1960 Cadillac"

be sure camera options like helmet and camera lean when using those cars isnt causing it to look like its rolling over more than it is.

hkraft300
04-03-2018, 05:32
Yep they should understeer unless the rear tires brake loose, but also it's the pattern of the skid path.

eg. On the right hand turn near apex start to add throttle and continue to corner exit. Adding throttle should move the weight to the rear, reduce traction on the front (under steer), and when the rear tires brake loose the car should go off track on the left, for me in the game with these 3 "street cars" I get the front end of the cars to pull to the right as if I have the wheel turned right. Behaves like "off throttle over steer" when the weight is shifted to the front, while loosing traction on the rear.

No. That's not what happens.
The rear breaks loose. The caster effect pulls the front wheels towards the direction of travel, unless your wheel /ffb settings a re rubbish.

demand34
04-03-2018, 08:31
Why are the games street cars suspension like driving a "1960 Cadillac".

To me it seems like most of the street cars in the game all have the same suspension "1960 Cadillac"

I tried a few cars Chev Camaro LT1, Z06 Corvette, Ford mustang, BMW etc .

The suspension movement using the in car camera view is all over the place. etc steering left and right back and forth, the amount of car tilt is like a 1960's car.

Also if you step on and off the gas the front end jumps up and down again like a 1960's car. The amount of body roll and up and down movement doesn't seem correct for these modern cars in the game.

Then I tried the following experiment. Set the suspension setup from the C7R GT3 car (all suspension settings) apply them to the C7 Z06 Street Car and compare the differences. The GT3 car behaves like what I know a Z06 corvette is like, but yet with the street car using the C7R suspension settings it still floats like a "1960 Cadillac"Are you using assists on street cars?, a controller instead of a wheel?

Mad Al
04-03-2018, 10:42
Yep they should understeer unless the rear tires brake loose, but also it's the pattern of the skid path.

eg. On the right hand turn near apex start to add throttle and continue to corner exit. Adding throttle should move the weight to the rear, reduce traction on the front (under steer), and when the rear tires brake loose the car should go off track on the left, for me in the game with these 3 "street cars" I get the front end of the cars to pull to the right as if I have the wheel turned right. Behaves like "off throttle over steer" when the weight is shifted to the front, while loosing traction on the rear.

The way they are set up is to allow the car to rotate on throttle, so you can basically complete the turn using the throttle, they are NOT setup to understeer like you average street car. As I've already said, try the OEM setup and compare, as it's setup to understeer more than the in game default(s)... which may feel more like what you think it should (basically if you are in terminal understeer, you shouldn't be applying more throttle in car with a setup so it is biased to understeer)

Juiced46
04-03-2018, 15:20
Never made the claim GT Sport overall is more realistic. Just the representation of the mentioned 3 "Street Cars" And how these cars display "On throttle over steer" Which isn't part of corner turn in but part of apex unwind and accelerate. And I am doing nothing more than exploring if any one else experiences what I showed in the video "As others called a bug" show "on throttle over steer" where the car crashed in a direction I believe is not realistic. Never claimed it shouldn't over steer, but shouldn't end up where it did.



If you have great real life experience on a track then tell me what you think "On throttle over steer" skid pattern should look like ?

This has nothing do to with GT Sport VS PC2 "How realistic" they are. The only statement I made is I believe that GT SPORT for the 3 "Street Cars" with on throttle over steer is more realistic. And only because where the car ends up.

But is seems PC2 "gamers" see this as a threat when people try to understand what the game is doing. All I ask is people tell me what you experience in the game with these cars. If you get the same results or different so I can understand what's the difference in what I am doing.

And people like your self that have actual "Road Track" experience may have a different perspective.

You dodged my question, what type of real life experience do you have as far as track driving?

As far as perspective. I know what a car should feel like when turning in, going through a corner and such in real life. In a simulation without a motion rig, it is much harder to mimic that "feeling" So they have to do it with FFB and camera movements.

When you are turning through a corner and apply too much throttle, the result is what is happening to you. The back end comes out and you spin out. It does not happen in GT Sport, because like I said, the game does not have as realistic handling physics so you can "get away" with more throttle during cornering without the back end coming out and spinning out. It also depends on if you are using assists or not and tire choice in GT sport. Plus GT Sports tire model is nowhere near what PC2 can do. I am not a PC2 "fanboy". I actually have all games mentioned. I came from Forza before PC1 came out. When you are used to driving in games like Forza and GT sport, the learning curve trying to drive in PC2 is tough. The reason why is, because it is more realistic as to how the car handles in real life. It seems to me this transition is your issue. It is not the game, it is the sole fact that the reality is this is how cars handle, but you are used to GT Sport/Foza type SimCade games where cars are just easier to drive and you can get a bit more aggressive with them.

Like mentioned are you using the OEM setup for these cars? Controller or wheel? What assists are you using if any when comparing both games?

Also if you can, can you post a video (of your own) of what is happening? Maybe then we can help figure out what you are doing wrong.

Juiced46
04-03-2018, 17:14
Ok, so I just ran a few laps with the Mustang with Authentic assists and then with NO assists both running OEM setup with slightly lowered tire pressures. No other changes. Car handles fine both with assists on or off. Car is not "undriveable" as you state. The car is extremely controllable.

So we need to go back to the questions in my last post which would really help figure out your problem. Wheel or controller, what setup, cold or warm tires, what assists? OR please post a video of your own (not a Youtube search)

Here are 2 videos I just took driving the car.


Assists on/Authentic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FStccopFmsk&feature=youtu.be

Assists OFF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTqcqR_V7UY&feature=youtu.be

Mr Schumacher
05-03-2018, 09:22
No, it's a GTE car, it's allowed as is to take part in GTE competition. =)

The M6 GTLM on the other hand IS a GTLM car, and is not allowed in general GTE competition.

Wait hold on. So your saying the Corvette C7 #All Hail Jan Magnuson Isent a GTLM car in the IMSA WeatherTech Tudor Championship? Is that what your saying? Because I’m in Cali, we don’t care about the WEC.. LOL :)

Its alllll about IMSA, where they race GT LaMa and GT Daytona

blankfile
05-03-2018, 09:55
Yup, The Corvette is a GTE car made fully to ACO ruleset which the GTLeMans class in IMSA runs aswell. The only difference is that in IMSA there is a different BOP

texjet454
05-03-2018, 14:38
Ok, so I just ran a few laps with the Mustang with Authentic assists and then with NO assists both running OEM setup with slightly lowered tire pressures. No other changes. Car handles fine both with assists on or off. Car is not "undriveable" as you state. The car is extremely controllable.

So we need to go back to the questions in my last post which would really help figure out your problem. Wheel or controller, what setup, cold or warm tires, what assists? OR please post a video of your own (not a Youtube search)

Here are 2 videos I just took driving the car.


Assists on/Authentic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FStccopFmsk&feature=youtu.be

Assists OFF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTqcqR_V7UY&feature=youtu.be

Ok just watched these two example videos and here are my observations on the differences with what I can see in the video and how the real car behaves. Unfortunately I don't possess the technical vocabulary to perfectly describe the differences so there is risk here that my message may not be fully understood but it is what it is. Here is a short list of what I see that is wrong:

1. Engine sounds are way off. The real Mustang has a more pronounced throaty gurgle or rumble due to its cross plane crank. I also think the engine revs a bit faster in the lower gears in the real car
2. The real car doesn't have as much body roll (both side to side and front to back)
3 The real car doesn't wallow on the suspension nearly as much as the sim version. In the sim even turning the wheel slightly on the straight causes some wallow. The real car doesn't do that.
4. In the video you can see times where the car hits a bump and the body travels up then down several times before the car returns to a level state. That behavior is not as pronounced in the real car. the real car doesn't bounce as much and returns to a level state much quicker

Juiced46
05-03-2018, 14:48
Ok just watched these two example videos and here are my observations on the differences with what I can see in the video and how the real car behaves. Unfortunately I don't possess the technical vocabulary to perfectly describe the differences so there is risk here that my message may not be fully understood but it is what it is. Here is a short list of what I see that is wrong:

1. Engine sounds are way off. The real Mustang has a more pronounced throaty gurgle or rumble due to its cross plane crank. I also think the engine revs a bit faster in the lower gears in the real car
2. The real car doesn't have as much body roll (both side to side and front to back)
3 The real car doesn't wallow on the suspension nearly as much as the sim version. In the sim even turning the wheel slightly on the straight causes some wallow. The real car doesn't do that.
4. In the video you can see times where the car hits a bump and the body travels up then down several times before the car returns to a level state. That behavior is not as pronounced in the real car. the real car doesn't bounce as much and returns to a level state much quicker

The purpose of the post is about handling so lets toss the sound thing out.

The body roll you see is my world movement setting. If I turn it up more the body roll in cockpit view will be much less pronounced. The roll is just an exaggerated motion based on how you have world movement set. The car handles very good. OP stated the car is undriveable, clearly it is not.

xtro
05-03-2018, 16:36
So much of these complains are tied to faulty setups in your input devices. Since September I am still finding ways to refine the driving experience.

Stewy32
05-03-2018, 17:04
Wait hold on. So your saying the Corvette C7 #All Hail Jan Magnuson Isent a GTLM car in the IMSA WeatherTech Tudor Championship? Is that what your saying? Because I’m in Cali, we don’t care about the WEC.. LOL :)

Its alllll about IMSA, where they race GT LaMa and GT Daytona

You still care about Le Mans right?
Ford certainly wouldn't be in GTLM without Le Mans,nor Aston Martin whenever they race in IMSA,and probably not Porsche as well.And with all those out all the other Manafacturers wouldn't put full factory efforts in.Does that appeal?

And the same with GTD.Without Stephane Ratel most the cars wouldn't be there and it would be a Porsche Cup class,if it existed whatsoever.

texjet454
05-03-2018, 17:48
The purpose of the post is about handling so lets toss the sound thing out.

The body roll you see is my world movement setting. If I turn it up more the body roll in cockpit view will be much less pronounced. The roll is just an exaggerated motion based on how you have world movement set. The car handles very good. OP stated the car is undriveable, clearly it is not.

My thoughts:

1. FWIW I was the one who made the first comment regarding the Mustang handling . You can go back and read the old posts if you want to get caught up 100%
2. I'm not throwing anything out. The sound is off. It's a valid point regardless.
3. I don't believe that your real world movement is the total reason for the way the suspension behaves. I could be wrong though, it will be easy to test and find out for sure.
4. I do agree that the car is very driveable, it just seems off from the real thing. However I haven't driven it with the OEM setup and since the latest patch so the next thing for me is to fire up PCARS 2 and do some testing.

Juiced46
05-03-2018, 19:34
My thoughts:

1. FWIW I was the one who made the first comment regarding the Mustang handling . You can go back and read the old posts if you want to get caught up 100%
2. I'm not throwing anything out. The sound is off. It's a valid point regardless.
3. I don't believe that your real world movement is the total reason for the way the suspension behaves. I could be wrong though, it will be easy to test and find out for sure.
4. I do agree that the car is very driveable, it just seems off from the real thing. However I haven't driven it with the OEM setup and since the latest patch so the next thing for me is to fire up PCARS 2 and do some testing.

Im not trying be harsh.

1. I read the complete thread. Roland also stated the mustang is undriveable. Its not undriveable and he has not answered if he is running the OEM setup or any other important questions which matter.

2. This thread is about handling. Not sound. Lets keep it about the topic.

3. Test it yourself. Set movement to 0, the car will roll more then an old caddy. Set it to 100, stiff as a****. You can adjust it in race as well. So no need to even back out of a race to test this. It will take you seconds to see what I am talking about

4. Try the OEM setup and report back. The car works really well. I usually dont race with road cars. But since I was running this test I actually put in some time with the Mustang last night and I thought it did pretty damn good.

texjet454
05-03-2018, 20:25
Im not trying be harsh.

1. I read the complete thread. Roland also stated the mustang is undriveable. Its not undriveable and he has not answered if he is running the OEM setup or any other important questions which matter.

2. This thread is about handling. Not sound. Lets keep it about the topic.

3. Test it yourself. Set movement to 0, the car will roll more then an old caddy. Set it to 100, stiff as a****. You can adjust it in race as well. So no need to even back out of a race to test this. It will take you seconds to see what I am talking about

4. Try the OEM setup and report back. The car works really well. I usually dont race with road cars. But since I was running this test I actually put in some time with the Mustang last night and I thought it did pretty damn good.

So my perspective here is not just handling only. I happen to own the real thing so I thought it would be interesting to do a broader comparison hence the point about the sound. So I did some testing and thought I'd report my observations. Take them for what they are worth since there are many variables that I can't control that could affect your experience in the mustang.

The camera movement settings for the test were:

1. High Speed Shake - Off
2. World movement - 0
3 G-Force effect - 0
4 Show helmet - No
5 Helmet depth of field - No
6. Helmet look to apex - 0
7. Helmet leaning - 0
8. Camera leaning - 0

I tested using the California highway and the Daytona road course. I used the OEM setup with one change. I changed the final drive to 3.55 to match my real world car

Here is what I found

1. First of all all of the things that I noticed that were different from the real car were visual in nature. The actual handling of the car in game seemed to be close.
2. Body roll was a bit pronounced but not by much so I think we could call this good enough
3. Front to back pitch under braking and acceleration was a different story. Visually it is way off. I'd guess at least twice as much but it could be more.
4. Once again visually the suspension of the car in game is much slower to react than the real car.
5. During my testing I also thought that the gearing was off. 6th gear didn't seem to have the same pull as the real car. So to check that out I actually went for a drive in the real car and determined that everything was spot on. I found what was throwing me was the sense of speed and the seat of the pants feel you get in the real car that you don't get in the PC2 version.

As I mentioned before the actual handling seems to be on par with the real car. I don't take my Mustang to the track so my conclusion regarding handling is lacking that data. Overall I'd rate the implementation of the Mustang in PC2 as good. I'd change it to very good if visually the suspension could be tightened up, some of the front/back pitch removed and the engine sound changed to better match the real car

Mahjik
05-03-2018, 21:13
texjet454, try setting World movement = 100. The way that one works is a little backwards to how most people perceive it should.

g.stew
05-03-2018, 22:23
texjet454, try setting World movement = 100. The way that one works is a little backwards to how most people perceive it should.

Is this the kind of thing that can be added to the FAQ & Tips in your sig? The number of times it's been mentioned in this thread alone makes me think it would help. Things like this, the fov speed sensitivity (where min/max fov are percentages of the fov), etc. would be really helpful to have there for newer users.

Juiced46
05-03-2018, 23:28
So my perspective here is not just handling only. I happen to own the real thing so I thought it would be interesting to do a broader comparison hence the point about the sound. So I did some testing and thought I'd report my observations. Take them for what they are worth since there are many variables that I can't control that could affect your experience in the mustang.

The camera movement settings for the test were:

1. High Speed Shake - Off
2. World movement - 0
3 G-Force effect - 0
4 Show helmet - No
5 Helmet depth of field - No
6. Helmet look to apex - 0
7. Helmet leaning - 0
8. Camera leaning - 0

I tested using the California highway and the Daytona road course. I used the OEM setup with one change. I changed the final drive to 3.55 to match my real world car

Here is what I found

1. First of all all of the things that I noticed that were different from the real car were visual in nature. The actual handling of the car in game seemed to be close.
2. Body roll was a bit pronounced but not by much so I think we could call this good enough
3. Front to back pitch under braking and acceleration was a different story. Visually it is way off. I'd guess at least twice as much but it could be more.
4. Once again visually the suspension of the car in game is much slower to react than the real car.
5. During my testing I also thought that the gearing was off. 6th gear didn't seem to have the same pull as the real car. So to check that out I actually went for a drive in the real car and determined that everything was spot on. I found what was throwing me was the sense of speed and the seat of the pants feel you get in the real car that you don't get in the PC2 version.

As I mentioned before the actual handling seems to be on par with the real car. I don't take my Mustang to the track so my conclusion regarding handling is lacking that data. Overall I'd rate the implementation of the Mustang in PC2 as good. I'd change it to very good if visually the suspension could be tightened up, some of the front/back pitch removed and the engine sound changed to better match the real car

The suspension seems slower and the body roll is more pronounced because you have world movement at 0. That will make the roll more pronounced. The higher you go, the less obvious it is. Also the beauty of the game allows you to change that plus camera and helmet leaning to dial it in to your liking to be as realistic as possible. The sense of speed will throw you off for sure. Again, the beauty of the game lets you adjust all these things. Change FOV, speed sensitivity, world movement etc to make it the way you like. Do not just set everything to zero

Sampo
05-03-2018, 23:45
Think of the world movement like at 0 the world doesn't move (and the car body moves) and at 100 the car body doesn't move (and the world moves). World being anything outside the car.

texjet454
05-03-2018, 23:54
Ok tried it at 100 and the car pitches front and rear just as much and perhaps more. Neither setting (0 or 100) is like the real car.

Juiced46
06-03-2018, 00:11
Try World Movement 60, Gforce 100, Helmet/camera 50.

You should see a huge difference between world movement at 0 to 100

hkraft300
06-03-2018, 00:24
Ok tried it at 100 and the car pitches front and rear just as much and perhaps more. Neither setting (0 or 100) is like the real car.

You realise that's camera movement and not the car pitching/rolling?
:hopelessness:

Kostman22
06-03-2018, 01:36
I guess you have never had a chance to drive the real car on a track. If you had any real track experience with the Mustang,Camaro or Corvette, you would not make that comment.

Would you like to meet up at a real track ? I have no desire to learn bad habits because of poor sim behavior.

The "pendulum effect" in sims is a well know problem and some handle it better than others.

Drive the C7 in GT Sport vs PC2, GT Sports wins hands down with it comes to realistic car handling.

Whoa Whoa there COWBOY! You wanna go, yeah? Let's go tough guy, Nurburgring Germany Friday the 9th, 10am bring your tits they'll help with the impact lol.

texjet454
06-03-2018, 01:50
Try World Movement 60, Gforce 100, Helmet/camera 50.

You should see a huge difference between world movement at 0 to 100

Yea I've used setting similar to that and it doesn't change anything. Sorry but I've wasted enough time here already. I thought it would be a fun comparison (real car to the game version) but it turns out to be not so much. No one really cares anyway so moving on .....

Thanks!

texjet454
06-03-2018, 01:54
You realise that's camera movement and not the car pitching/rolling?
:hopelessness:

Is camera movement in all of the internal views?

hkraft300
06-03-2018, 03:11
Whoa Whoa there COWBOY! You wanna go, yeah? Let's go tough guy, Nurburgring Germany Friday the 9th, 10am bring your tits they'll help with the impact lol.

:glee: challenge accepted!

Is camera movement in all of the internal views?

I think it is. I only use cockpit so I'm not sure.

Roland2
06-03-2018, 03:12
So much of these complains are tied to faulty setups in your input devices. Since September I am still finding ways to refine the driving experience.

Are you talking about FFB Settings ? I am on PS4. Wheel is detected as "thrustmast TS300"

I think you are on to something here.

What would you suggest as starting point for the Z06 Corvette. I tried a few settings and noticed a difference in the things that I feel make the car unrealistic changed.

What I need good feedback in is
-tire slip angles
-steering centering or knowing where steering center is

Roland2
06-03-2018, 03:34
texjet454, try setting World movement = 100. The way that one works is a little backwards to how most people perceive it should.

That setting is what did it for me. I was using 0 thinking it would turn off fake feedback of what world movement simulation, when in fact I have now adjusted to give enough car roll so I get the effect of weight shifting, and how hard I am braking.

My next problem is getting the FFB Settings which I now believe is the source of the unrealistic handling and how the car drives in the game. What do you suggest ?

Wheel is detected as "thrustmast TS300" PS4 system.

The car I am most interested in is the Z06 Street Corvette. What I am having problems with is feeling "Tire slip angles" and have a hard time feeling "steering center point"

I set some of the values to extremes and noticed a big difference in how the car drives. I believe this is because my sense of where the steering wheel is getting poor feedback and therefor not providing the correct steering input. Most of the problems is with feeling front wheel grip on corner exit, and when the optimum tire slip angle is lost.

Roland2
06-03-2018, 03:57
Is this the kind of thing that can be added to the FAQ & Tips in your sig? The number of times it's been mentioned in this thread alone makes me think it would help. Things like this, the fov speed sensitivity (where min/max fov are percentages of the fov), etc. would be really helpful to have there for newer users.

I agree. or the defaults in the game should be set based on what the majority feels seems realistic.

This setting made me think the "street cars" visually are way off. Now I have adjusted so I can see "weight transfer rate" and "braking level" much more realistic, since you cannot feel the G's.

Great tip for new people to this game. But because it took a while for this to come up, I think it has been unnoticed by long time people as well. I think if it was mentioned as the first response this thread would have taken a different route, especially for me. No 1960 cadillac's in my game anymore. Thanks to the guys that pointed me to this ?

Roland2
06-03-2018, 04:07
No. That's not what happens.
The rear breaks loose. The caster effect pulls the front wheels towards the direction of travel, unless your wheel /ffb settings a re rubbish.

Yep I think you are correct. My FFB Settings are rubbish. Wheel is detected as "thrustmast TS300"

I am getting poor "tire slip angles" feelings and incorrect feedback for steering centering" I played with settings and noticed a big difference on the car handling, because of incorrect steering input based on my current reflexes for tracking my "real cars". I must be providing incorrect inputs based on what I feel. The GT sport game default (simple settings 1-10 Scale) is closer to what my reflexes expect.

Now I need to get the same FFB for this game.

What would you suggest as a starting point for the C7 Z06 Corvette. I am testing on Laguna Seca layout.

Roland2
06-03-2018, 04:14
Ok tried it at 100 and the car pitches front and rear just as much and perhaps more. Neither setting (0 or 100) is like the real car.

I tested with the Z06 Corvette and found a day and night difference in the Cockpit views. Not in the chase camera view. Should this setting effect other views ?

g.stew
06-03-2018, 05:32
I agree. or the defaults in the game should be set based on what the majority feels seems realistic.

This setting made me think the "street cars" visually are way off. Now I have adjusted so I can see "weight transfer rate" and "braking level" much more realistic, since you cannot feel the G's.

Great tip for new people to this game. But because it took a while for this to come up, I think it has been unnoticed by long time people as well. I think if it was mentioned as the first response this thread would have taken a different route, especially for me. No 1960 cadillac's in my game anymore. Thanks to the guys that pointed me to this ?

And you wouldn't think to mention that setting because it's not something you'd think would affect it unless you'd had experience with it. As soon as someone mentioned a boat, it reminded me of this right away from having mine set wrong at first. As you can see, it's gone unnoticed a few more times in this thread since I brought it up and new people have come in. Two patches from now, someone will be referencing this thread for some issue they have.

The first thing I did when I came to this forum was read the tips and tricks, but if seems like more questions people had before the game came out. I'd love to see that thread updated with some of these common things that people run into. The Insiders Guide series does a great job covering many of these things, but it would be cool to have a text resource that people can be pointed to.

xtro
06-03-2018, 05:51
It's not necessarily all Ffb. I'll give you my full current setup and you can have a test drive with it see it that helps...

Those are for a t300 on ps4


1) set you wheel at 900 degrees (4 lights)
2) calibrate wheel and pedals
3) input setup

Steering sensitivity 50 dz 0
Brake 50 and clutch 70 sensitivity dz 2
Throttle 50 dz 0

Speed sensitivity 25 -- this act a bit like a variable assisted steering

Damping is at 100 -- haven't played with that since patch 4

4) make sure you turn off your PS4 controller before you start the game or make sure it doesn't work in Bluetooth mode... I noticed it does create interference. Especially with the brakes. Also you will enjoy every game more plugged in USB mode (ps4 settings devices controllers communication method )-- have a test

Ffb settings I currently use immersive around those values 60 40 70 20

Now you should be good.. at least I do enjoy that setup a lot with any car especially road cars. As other members said use the OEM setup or Stable setup on the cars you know. Disable all assists (assign buttons for SC and TC to turn them off on easily)

Cota has been pretty nice to drive those cars around. And eventually drift a bit. If you feel you reach the grip limit too fast when turning increase a bit the steering rack ratio. It could be too "race car" like with the default settings.

Hope some of that helps

hkraft300
06-03-2018, 06:33
Yep I think you are correct. My FFB Settings are rubbish. Wheel is detected as "thrustmast TS300"

I am getting poor "tire slip angles" feelings and incorrect feedback for steering centering" I played with settings and noticed a big difference on the car handling, because of incorrect steering input based on my current reflexes for tracking my "real cars". I must be providing incorrect inputs based on what I feel. The GT sport game default (simple settings 1-10 Scale) is closer to what my reflexes expect.

Now I need to get the same FFB for this game.

What would you suggest as a starting point for the C7 Z06 Corvette. I am testing on Laguna Seca layout.

I'd suggest:
steering sensitivity = 50 (linear)
Damping = 0 (to minimise wheel drag)

And my ffb settings in my sig below. Maybe you'd need to reduce gain to 75-80 if the wheel is too strong. This enhances the caster effect, which gives steering feel as per the direction of the car travelling. For example when you oversteer the front wheels will track towards the direction the rear end is trying to go. So if the back steps wide towards the left (in a right turn oversteer), the front wheels will track left.