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View Full Version : How to drift the Porsche 911 Carrera RSR (1973)



Mike1304
08-03-2018, 18:39
The car is so stable. I thought this Porsche would be more tail heavy?
Does anyone have tips how to drift this car so that the rear end breaks out (oversteer)?
Do I have to change the setup (what?) or is it possible to drift this car without changing the setup?

Ashaz
08-03-2018, 20:18
Without having tried the car at all, I'd suggest adjusting the sway bars. Make the rear one stiffer untill it becomes drifty enough for you.

Invincible
08-03-2018, 20:20
Without having tried the car at all, I'd suggest adjusting the sway bars. Make the rear one stiffer untill it becomes drifty enough for you.

This. If it isn't enough, increase the tire pressure on the rear wheels.
But I find it driftable with the default loose setup. You just have to chuck it into the corners nicely.

poirqc
08-03-2018, 20:28
I've only tried the stable setup and it felt well planted. The yellow bird in pCars 1 was tail happy, so i tought id try the stable first, in a race setup.

But yeah, every loose setup i tried had the rear breakable. It should also be the case! :)

Invincible
08-03-2018, 20:31
I've only tried the stable setup and it felt well planted. The yellow bird in pCars 1 was tail happy, so i tought id try the stable first, in a race setup.

But yeah, every loose setup i tried had the rear breakable. It should also be the case! :)

You can't compare the rsr2.8 with the Yellowbird. The Yellowbird had more power than the chassis was good for while the 2.8 is rather moderately powered without a torque-throwing turbo.

Jussi Karjalainen
09-03-2018, 03:16
You can't compare the rsr2.8 with the Yellowbird. The Yellowbird had more power than the chassis was good for while the 2.8 is rather moderately powered without a torque-throwing turbo.
Yup, there's a nearly 200 hp power gap and this car is on racing slicks, even if they're fairly old ones. It'll go a bit sideways with the correct setup, but it's not a drift monster.

Casey Ringley
09-03-2018, 03:42
Keep going up one click on the rear springs/torsion bars until you find a balance that suits your goal. It does have some big, grippy tires at the rear and a soft baseline setup adding more mechanical grip. Plenty of room to tune.

poirqc
09-03-2018, 10:19
This. If it isn't enough, increase the tire pressure on the rear wheels.
But I find it driftable with the default loose setup. You just have to chuck it into the corners nicely.

I like to drive cars, but I don't know them. I thought every Porsches were tail happy! :D

blinkngone
09-03-2018, 13:19
I don't know how to drift. But, all terrain tires and a ratchet diff.
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blinkngone
09-03-2018, 13:34
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blinkngone
09-03-2018, 13:53
Slicks, it's harder for me but then again I don't have a clutch.
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poirqc
09-03-2018, 15:10
What that many screenshot, didn't posting a video would've been easier! :p :D

blinkngone
09-03-2018, 16:14
Yeah, I don't know how to post videos of my fraps. They are pretty cool though. There are many other things I can't do, like use both arms and legs. Use a clutch, have my eyes focus. Run a road course lap without nearly puking and passing out so not being able to post a video is one of my least embarrassing faults.:cool:

Invincible
09-03-2018, 16:17
Yeah, I don't know how to post videos of my fraps. They are pretty cool though. There are many other things I can't do, like use both arms and legs. Use a clutch, have my eyes focus. Run a road course lap without nearly puking and passing out so not being able to post a video is one of my least embarrassing faults.:cool:

Sorry if I'm a bit indiscrete and curious, but what happened to you? If you don't want to tell, that's fine but I couldn't resist to ask...

blinkngone
09-03-2018, 16:40
Sorry if I'm a bit indiscrete and curious, but what happened to you? If you don't want to tell, that's fine but I couldn't resist to ask...
I have degenerative muscle disorder that is incurable, I am sure there are others on here in the shadows. Life is good and I am very lucky that it didn't hit me until I was 60 so I had a good life and was fortunate to be able to retire. It's been an interesting 5 years and sometimes I do feel like a science experiment for those practicing medicine but again I am fortunate to have come into contact and get under the care of some very good Dr.s.:D I wasn't trying to be snippy, I am sorry poirc/Invincible, I just had a very bad day because another Dr. had changed my meds and sent me backwards so I apologize. My wife of 30 doesn't get my sense of humor, what there is of it. I like every body here. Some day I might learn how to post a video even.:D

I had to make a lot of changes to get the RSR to spin, brake balance all the way forward, increasing the rear soft bump and rebound to maximum, camber to 0 on the rear, springs full stiff on the rear and high rear tire pressure as well but with the ratchet LSD it is a spin monster and even with my poor ability I could do doughnuts and reverse them easily, I was hoping you could see the skid marks in the screenshots.

Invincible
09-03-2018, 16:46
I have degenerative muscle disorder that is incurable, I am sure there are others on here in the shadows. Life is good and I am very lucky that it didn't hit me until I was 60 so I had a good life and was fortunate to be able to retire. It's been an interesting 5 years and sometimes I do feel like a science experiment for those practicing medicine but again I am fortunate to have come into contact and get under the care of some very good Dr.s.:D I wasn't trying to be snippy, I am sorry poirc/Invincible, I just had a very bad day because another Dr. had changed my meds and sent me backwards so I apologize. My wife of 30 doesn't get my sense of humor, what there is of it. I like every body here. Some day I might learn how to post a video even.:D

I had to make a lot of changes to get the RSR to spin, brake balance all the way forward, increasing the rear soft bump and rebound to maximum, camber to 0 on the rear, springs full stiff on the rear and high rear tire pressure as well but with the ratchet LSD it is a spin monster and even with my poor ability I could do doughnuts and reverse them easily, I was hoping you could see the skid marks in the screenshots.

Huh? Snippy? I really didn't take your previous post as snippy or anything like that, really.
It's kinda sad to hear what happened to you, yet it is also nice to see that you didn't lost the spirit. Many people would turn bitter and turn away from the world. I really hope that if something like this happens to me one day, I will still be able to enjoy life as far as I can and go with a smile on my face.

That being said, I wish you all the best and hopefully they find a cure or at least will be able to stop further degeneration.

poirqc
09-03-2018, 17:00
I am sorry poirc/Invincible...

Don't be! I was just joking/poking. You can post whatever you want man :D You're the master of your domain!

Basically, it's fairly easy. Once it's recorded(Can do done in a click with shadowplay), you open up youtube and drag and drop it there.

Found a 1 pager in case you're interested!
(https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/57407?co=GENIE.Platform%3DDesktop&hl=en)

Huh? Snippy? I really didn't take your previous post as snippy or anything like that, really.
It's kinda sad to hear what happened to you, yet it is also nice to see that you didn't lost the spirit. Many people would turn bitter and turn away from the world. I really hope that if something like this happens to me one day, I will still be able to enjoy life as far as I can and go with a smile on my face.

That being said, I wish you all the best and hopefully they find a cure or at least will be able to stop further degeneration.

This! :)

gp2112
09-03-2018, 17:50
Try softening the springs in the rear and get rid of the rear camber and toe. Some may say to stiffen the springs but the 911 engine, being behind the rear axle, will stop swaying as much with stiff springs. You want the engine to sway and get into a negative feedback(?) situation in which it will "overcorrect" it's weight balance sharply to the opposite side. Then as you enter a corner stab the brakes. This will force the nose down and the rear up, thus resulting in the weight off of the rear axle. Once you turn, the reduced weight on the rear will cause the back end to oversteer. Then once you have the rear loose you can proceed in any manner you choose.

When I race the Porsche I use the stab technique to get the rear to rotate around a corner. Then I punch it and the rear gathers up under the car and it shoots forward. The weight of the engine behind the rear axle is what makes the 911 such a good "mudder" and why one got the overall win, over DP cars, at the Petite a few years ago.

Remember: The Porsche cannot be set up like a mid or front engine car. You always have to account for the engine behind the axle.

Jussi Karjalainen
09-03-2018, 18:52
I like to drive cars, but I don't know them. I thought every Porsches were tail happy! :DPorsches were more "deadly" than tail happy. The Porsche thing has always been "traction", first and foremost. All that weight at the rear presses down heavily on the rear tyres, giving them a lot of grip when you're accelerating out of corners. That doesn't leave much for the fronts, so there is definitely such a thing as "Porsche Understeer", especially on power. They were historically point and shoot cars to an extent: Slow down for a corner, get the noise pointing towards the next straight, blast the throttle, trust that the heavy rear will give you all the traction you'll need.

But what about when things go wrong? The Porsche tail-happiness side comes mostly from how deadly they could be on the roads in the hands of unwitting drivers. It's not that they were inherently hard to drive, they just had a different dynamic than other cars of the time. With having to run without a good limited slip diff, using the horrible 70s tyres (narrow buggers, and terrible rubber, modern winter tyres on snow are surprisingly close to 70s tyres on tarmac), the initially not that fantastic rear suspension and other such issues, the cars could have a tendency for lift oversteer. And once that happened the engine at the rear could make things terribly tricky to recover from.

By contrast these racing Porsches had really fat and sticky rubber, about as good diffs as you could have back then, and suspensions designed for racing, they weren't anywhere near as treacherous. =)

Invincible
09-03-2018, 18:55
Jussi, one day you'll have to write a book on that stuff. Jussi's suspension bible.

Jussi Karjalainen
09-03-2018, 18:58
Try softening the springs in the rear and get rid of the rear camber and toe. Some may say to stiffen the springs but the 911 engine, being behind the rear axle, will stop swaying as much with stiff springs. You want the engine to sway and get into a negative feedback(?) situation in which it will "overcorrect" it's weight balance sharply to the opposite side.That works too. Suspensions can be funny in the way both too soft and too stiff settings can cause the same sort of driving issue. Too soft springs allowing the rear to wobble about out of control and causing oversteer, too stiff rear springs reducing compliance and as a result hurting mechanical grip, causing oversteer...

It's one of the reasons why I developed my calculator, so that I at least don't try to soften up a suspension that's already too soft, and waste time chasing a dead end. =)

Christiaan van Beilen
09-03-2018, 18:59
Porsches were more "deadly" than tail happy. The Porsche thing has always been "traction", first and foremost. All that weight at the rear presses down heavily on the rear tyres, giving them a lot of grip when you're accelerating out of corners. That doesn't leave much for the fronts, so there is definitely such a thing as "Porsche Understeer". They were historically point and shoot cars to an extent: Slow down for a corner, get the noise pointing towards the next straight, blast the throttle, trust that the heavy rear will give you all the traction you'll need.

But what about when things go wrong? The Porsche tail-happiness side comes mostly from how deadly they could be on the roads in the hands of unwitting drivers. It's not that they were inherently hard to drive, they just had a different dynamic than other cars of the time. With having to run without a good limited slip diff, using the horrible 70s tyres (narrow buggers, and terrible rubber, modern winter tyres on snow are surprisingly close to 70s tyres on tarmac), the initially not that fantastic rear suspension and other such issues, the cars could have a tendency for lift oversteer. And once that happened the engine at the rear could make things terribly tricky to recover from.

By contrast these racing Porsches had really fat and sticky rubber, about as good diffs as you could have back then, and suspensions designed for racing, they weren't anywhere near as treacherous. =)

Begs the question, Jussi... can we transform the car to a road going Carrera (or as close as we can) with the current available setup options? :rolleyes:

Jussi Karjalainen
09-03-2018, 19:00
Oh, and another good example of why rear heavy doesn't mean inherently unstable, as long as the suspension and tyres are designed around the concept: Nissan DeltaWing. You don't much more rear heavy than that, and all the driver's I've heard of mostly just remarked on how incredibly stable it was.

Jussi Karjalainen
09-03-2018, 19:02
Begs the question, Jussi... can we transform the car to a road going Carrera (or as close as we can) with the current available setup options? :rolleyes:
Well, those dirt tyres are probably one way to go about it, though they're still quite grippy (based on our RX tyres, which are designed to perform well on tarmac as well as gravel, mainly via being really soft compounds since longevity is a non-issue in RX), and you can definitely adjust the suspension and diffs... But I fear the road car might have had some differences in the suspension geometry, and you won't be able to adjust the tyre widths either.

Christiaan van Beilen
09-03-2018, 19:08
Well, those dirt tyres are probably one way to go about it, though they're still quite grippy (based on our RX tyres, which are designed to perform well on tarmac as well as gravel, mainly via being really soft compounds since longevity is a non-issue in RX), and you can definitely adjust the suspension and diffs... But I fear the road car might have had some differences in the suspension geometry, and you won't be able to adjust the tyre widths either.

Thanks for the tips. I'll see if I can have a fiddle with it tonight. The car (all of them) is real nice out of the box though, so you and the rest of the team did a cracking job. For me this RSR is like an extension of myself and it had me grinning from ear to ear as I feel the car is really incredibly predictable.

Also about the wider tyres. Do you reckon running some extreme camber with maybe a slightly lower (or higher) tyre pressure could somehow mimic smaller tyres? Since you are making the contact patch smaller.

Jussi Karjalainen
09-03-2018, 19:19
Also about the wider tyres. Do you reckon running some extreme camber with maybe a slightly lower (or higher) tyre pressure could somehow mimic smaller tyres? Since you are making the contact patch smaller.Extra camber? Probably not, you'd be introducing camber thrust etc. so it really wouldn't work the same way. Higher pressures? Well, those would at the very least reduce grip... So you might try running higher pressures at the rear than the front to "virtually" reduce the difference in width.

Of course increasing tyre pressure will also change the tyre spring rate, which will affect handling in other ways too, so... Yeah, neither is really a replacement for actually having period correct road tyres on the car.

Christiaan van Beilen
09-03-2018, 19:33
Extra camber? Probably not, you'd be introducing camber thrust etc. so it really wouldn't work the same way. Higher pressures? Well, those would at the very least reduce grip... So you might try running higher pressures at the rear than the front to "virtually" reduce the difference in width.

Of course increasing tyre pressure will also change the tyre spring rate, which will affect handling in other ways too, so... Yeah, neither is really a replacement for actually having period correct road tyres on the car.

I was afraid you'd say that. Spring rate of the tires can up to some point be compensated with a softer suspension though. Although it is never a replacement.

I am thinking along the lines of that a French car has stiffer suspension but tyres with a softer construction. French and Michelin go hand in hand. On the other hand you have German cars with in my opinion softer suspension that prefer a firmer tyre.
So what I am saying is that car manufacturers definitely tune their suspension to certain tire characteristics. Meaning that the reverse should be possible as well. Although it has its limits of course.

Jussi Karjalainen
09-03-2018, 20:46
If you consider the road tyres of that period, every car was set up pretty dang soft (unless you had to carry a lot of stuff on board of course). With about 0.7 Gs of lateral grip the last thing you want/need is a "sporty" suspension to go with it, so things mostly went to the 1.0-1.4 Hz region, even sports cars (below 1.0 Hz starts to be so wobbly that it's uncomfortable)...

These days when even the cheap chinese knock-off tyres can handle 1 G and Pirelli and Michelin are getting close to knocking on the 1.4 G barrier (steady, not peak) with road tyres, the suspensions do need a bit more oomph.

Christiaan van Beilen
09-03-2018, 23:51
If you consider the road tyres of that period, every car was set up pretty dang soft (unless you had to carry a lot of stuff on board of course). With about 0.7 Gs of lateral grip the last thing you want/need is a "sporty" suspension to go with it, so things mostly went to the 1.0-1.4 Hz region, even sports cars (below 1.0 Hz starts to be so wobbly that it's uncomfortable)...

These days when even the cheap chinese knock-off tyres can handle 1 G and Pirelli and Michelin are getting close to knocking on the 1.4 G barrier (steady, not peak) with road tyres, the suspensions do need a bit more oomph.

I agree, I was just talking from experience with modern road cars to be honest. The point where Chinese tyres actually differ is how they handle in the wet, and how high quality the carcass construction is. As in it's easy to break a belt under the running surface if you hit a pothole or maybe just when you clip a curb. Which is less likely to happen with a quality brand tyre where good quality materials are being used.

As far as suspension goes and geometry... a lot has changed over the years for sure. It basically evolved along with tyres i'd say, because as grip increases you get more roll in corners, dive under braking and even squat under acceleration (which can be an issue if the front starts to lift too much). So yeah, it's definitely been a natural progression.

Anyway... I am throwing this thread off into a massive off-topic zone.

As far as Porsches go. They indeed aren't drift machines as the weight distribution just isn't suited for it, but you can have some awesome time simply powersliding the car through a corner. Which I actually have been going in several races on a quite wet Nurburgring. I've basically just been tapping the brakes to cause a weight shift to the front, turn in almost simultaneously and than apply throttle and control your exit trajectory as well as speed with the throttle and steering inputs.

The setup I used was simple... stable setup with 100% brake strength (wheel user here) and some hand selected wet tyres.


Oh that reminds me. I keep having issues with automatic weather selection not working in a custom race or free practice. Any ideas as to why this happens or is it a known issue?

Mike1304
10-03-2018, 12:27
If you consider the road tyres of that period, every car was set up pretty dang soft (unless you had to carry a lot of stuff on board of course). With about 0.7 Gs of lateral grip the last thing you want/need is a "sporty" suspension to go with it, so things mostly went to the 1.0-1.4 Hz region, even sports cars (below 1.0 Hz starts to be so wobbly that it's uncomfortable)...

These days when even the cheap chinese knock-off tyres can handle 1 G and Pirelli and Michelin are getting close to knocking on the 1.4 G barrier (steady, not peak) with road tyres, the suspensions do need a bit more oomph.

Is it possible to change to such “old original road tyres of those days” in the game too or are they already on the car (standard setup)?

Is it possible to use an “OEM-setup” for this (1973) 911er?
I couldn’t find one at least...

Sorry for my noob questions but why have some Porsches (911 GT3 RS for example) such OEM setups and others not?
I tried the OEM setup with the 911 GT3 RS for example, turned off all driving aids (traction control....) and the car was superb to drive (I could decide if I wanted to drift or not).
Wanted to do this with the 1973 911er, but couldn’t drift it (no OEM or drift setup to choose...)

Janskulainen
11-03-2018, 07:59
Jussi, why is it not possible to change the weight balance on the regular Porsche 935? It is stuck on 40/60, on PS4 atleast, which makes it unnecessary "bad" to drive under certain circumstances, even though taking all of what you wrote in to account. Is this stuck by mistake/programing error? Pleeeeeease fix it :)

David Wright
11-03-2018, 08:58
Is it possible to change to such “old original road tyres of those days” in the game too or are they already on the car (standard setup)?

Is it possible to use an “OEM-setup” for this (1973) 911er?
I couldn’t find one at least...

Sorry for my noob questions but why have some Porsches (911 GT3 RS for example) such OEM setups and others not?
I tried the OEM setup with the 911 GT3 RS for example, turned off all driving aids (traction control....) and the car was superb to drive (I could decide if I wanted to drift or not).
Wanted to do this with the 1973 911er, but couldn’t drift it (no OEM or drift setup to choose...)

I think the discussion may have confused you. OEM setups are only supplied for road cars - same goes for road tyres. The 73 911 RSR is not a road car - its a fulll blown racing car, albeit one based on a road car.

Jussi Karjalainen
11-03-2018, 16:48
Is it possible to change to such “old original road tyres of those days” in the game too or are they already on the car (standard setup)?

Is it possible to use an “OEM-setup” for this (1973) 911er?
I couldn’t find one at least...

Sorry for my noob questions but why have some Porsches (911 GT3 RS for example) such OEM setups and others not? Not for the 911 RSR '73, since it's a racing car. Racing cars don't use road tyres, especially horrible road tyres. (If you really really really want them and request them enough, we might consider adding them as an easter egg...)

Road cars have OEM setups and access to road tyres, racing cars don't. Pretty much as simple as that. Some "road cars" don't have OEM setups either due to them being at times already modified, so there isn't necessarily an OEM setup to have on them. I think the F150 Funhaver is one such car.


Jussi, why is it not possible to change the weight balance on the regular Porsche 935? It is stuck on 40/60, on PS4 atleast, which makes it unnecessary "bad" to drive under certain circumstances, even though taking all of what you wrote in to account. Is this stuck by mistake/programing error? Pleeeeeease fix it :)You're lucky you can put it to 40/60, that's only possible due to ballast. Without ballast the car would be a natural 34/66. =)

For me it's not stuck either, you can adjust it between 40/60 and 34/66. Are you saying that you can't get it to 34/66 on PS4?

Why the Moby Dick variant can go to 56/64 is because it was massively altered from the normal variant. Let me quote Casey here:


Porsche 935/78 'Moby Dick': While the real thing was an awesomely big job of hacking the rulebook to make the car lower, longer, and more powerful, for us it works out to a fairly mild mod of our existing 935/77. That chopping of the chassis to lower the entire car plus new bodywork front and rear made the car significantly more efficient.The better weight distribution is another result of them chopping the car up and rebuilding it.

In the end I guess the answer to why the weight distribution is stuck between 40/60 and 34/66 is "Because Porsche put the engine in the wrong place". =)