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View Full Version : Physics of the Porsche Legends DLC



Casey Ringley
08-03-2018, 22:56
Better grab snacks and a beverage, because this is a long one. From the production side, I'm not sure we've ever had a more interesting or well-documented group of DLC cars to work on. Each one of them was an absolute joy for us to build up and it's great to see so many people enjoying the drives.

Porsche Carrera GT: Just a great car; all the bits of it are in a great balance. Research for this one proved particularly productive as there is a strong and open community of owners at Rennlist who love to talk about their cars and share experiences.

The engine is that famous V10 which began life with intention to race in the 3.5L era of Formula 1. It was shelved for a bit before being brought back for the aborted LMP900 project, and eventually grew to the 5.7L variant used here. The owner's manual includes a nice dyno plot of the engine's full range which matches up well with independent dyno data and served as our main reference point. It makes a smooth 600hp with plenty of torque from 5500rpm right up to the limiter at 8400rpm. Feedback from owners is that it's just a perfect example of a naturally aspirated engine to drive once you get the hang of starting off with the aggressive clutch and virtually no flywheel. (2005 model year updates added some software anti-stall auto-throttle to help get the car rolling) Power goes through a 6-speed manual and clutch-pack LSD to the rear wheels. Ratios spaced in nice progressive steps that increase speed by about 30mph in each gear; combined with the fat torque curve, it feels like you always have a good gear to use and the whole thing is working with you.

Aero claims for the car are modest with CdA=0.72 and a useful downforce of 400kgf @ 330kmh, with both values being backed up well by Sport Auto wind tunnel tests. Aero balance is actually slightly forward of where you would expect on a road car, but still in a nice position given the car's weight distribution and heritage of being set up by Porsche factory race drivers of the era.

Suspension is a very simple double wishbone design with coilovers on inboard rockers. Very similar setup to the Enzo from that same supercar era. Rocker-pushrod design appears to work out to a motion ratio of 1:1 (Suspension tuning being one of the few things not discussed at length on rennlist, aside from how to lift the car for daily use on rough roads) and good photos of one car being worked on show 90N/mm springs at both ends. Those wheel rates, the 1455kg DIN weight & 60% rear weight, and a typical Arnao-Porsche damper setup work out to a very nice chassis balance.

The car did originally have a strong reputation for oversteer as it rolled out from the factory - both in general cornering and lift-off oversteer. It has an adjustable rear anti-roll bar, and their test drivers liked it in the firmest position. Randy Pobst had a good article about it during his time as a Porsche factory driver and pins it on their test drivers all having strong karting background. A bunch of kids who grew up winning races by adopting a ‘pitch sideways and catch’ driving style; heavy emphasis on oversteer in the baseline setup. Porsche eventually changed to shipping cars with the rear bar in the middle of three settings, and pretty much every owner has moved to the softest setting for 'very slight' understeer and increased confidence in the car. Our setups default there too.

It is very quick. In testing on Trofeo R tires, I'm lapping the Ring in around 7:15 (Jussi turned a 7:07, the speed demon). Given that we're modeling newer, better tires, and the official lap done back in 2004 was a 7:28, we appear to be right on target for performance.


Porsche 935/78 'Moby Dick': While the real thing was an awesomely big job of hacking the rulebook to make the car lower, longer, and more powerful, for us it works out to a fairly mild mod of our existing 935/77. That chopping of the chassis to lower the entire car plus new bodywork front and rear made the car significantly more efficient. Wind tunnel data from the time shows 10% less drag and 50% more downforce compared to the 935/77, though 97% of that downforce is applied to the rear axle; not exactly great for cornering speed, but does wonders for high speed stability and that was the whole purpose of this car. The real secret weapon here was the new four-valve, 3.2L engine with water-cooled heads (code 935/71). While not a huge power advantage on paper over the 3.2L 2-valve 930/80 unit we have in the 935/77 and 935/80 models - 750hp@8200rpm vs 740hp@7800rpm, both at 1.4bar boost - it can pull right up to 9000rpm and maximum boost of 1.7bar puts it well over 800hp for qualifying. The broader power band plus the improved aero mean it will gets up over 365km/h on the Mulsanne straight while feeling perfectly stable going flat through the kink. It may burn through fuel in a flash, but it's happy cruising around those old tracks at high speed all day long.


Porsche 911 Carrera RSR 2.8: Huge credit to the old Paul Frère books which just go into ridiculous on every racing model from the 1970s and were an invaluable resource putting this together..

The 2.8L flat-6 is good for 308hp@8000rpm and drives the rear through a type 915 5-speed. There's a big set of alternate race ratios, but the engine is smooth enough that you won't often feel the need to adjust things per track. The standard ZF limited slip differential could be set for 40% or 80% lock; 40% feels good on ours as a baseline (6 clutches, 50° ramps).

RSR race models were stripped down to 900kg for a neat 40/60 weight distribution. This was the time when wind tunnels were just starting to see use in developing race cars, and the 911 proved particularly terrible at the beginning with upwards of 300lb lift happening at the rear axle in the initial tests. The duck tail addition helped balance that and cut about 75% of the rear lift, but still left significant lift overall. Numerous other tweaks just didn't work very well, resulting in a car with downforce on the front end and lift at the rear, until the 'Mary Stuart' setup which actually made useful downforce at both ends of the car for only a small drag penalty. We've gone with that kind of configuration for our aero model as it just drives the best of the bunch.

Suggested suspension setup for the RSR was effectively identical to the street RS models, with zero camber at the front, -1° at the rear, a touch of rear toe, torsion bars of 18.8mm diameter at the front and 23mm at the rear with 18mm anti-roll bars at both ends. Stiffness numbers make this look soft, but the car is so light that it all works out in the end. It does get faster if you make it lower and stiffer, but the relationship between stiffness and difficulty is quite direct on this car. Dampers are very similar to Bilstein valving spec for the real thing - 100/220 on the front and 160/210 on the rear. Brakes for the RSR came straight off of the 917 prototypes; more than adequate for the job!

I'm loving driving this thing. It's easy to see why they are so popular for vintage racing; the balance of power and grip is great, and the steering feel works perfectly with the chassis balance to glide through corners with the rear end hung out. Top speed isn't especially high at around 250km/h, but the lightness and handling make it a good match for the old Camaro and Ferrari 365. Multi-class at Le Mans with this will be great fun; 911 giving all it's got for 250km/h on the Mulsanne while the 917 and !redacted! blast by doing closer to 390km/h!


Porsche 917K: I've never seen so much detailed documentation on a 45 year-old car before; made putting this together very easy. Nice dyno plots, full gearbox/differential specs for various circuits, multiple wind tunnel and track aero tests in various configurations and an array of ride heights, complete chassis blueprints for suspension geometry, corner weights, fuel usage, etc. etc. etc. Amazing stuff in these old Frère books.

Engine for these 1971 cars was the 4.9L version of Porsche's flat-12 making an even 600hp@8400rpm and 415lb-ft@6500rpm. Unusual engine as it was essentially two regular 911 boxer 6-cylinders joined together in the middle; the length of such an arrangement meaning that power had to be taken from the middle of the crankshaft to help control vibrations and the gears used to achieve this essentially making for a 32:31 overdrive. Also note that while these are traditional 'air-cooled' Porsches, there is a radiator at the front you can damage which will cause some trouble. They ran an 80cm-wide oil cooler up there, and the 917K variants even going so far as to carry a 55L (no, that's no a typo) oil tank to help regulate engine temperature over the endurance races.

That engine drives the rear through the same type-917 gearbox we have later in the 936/77 (minus the power take-off overdrive) and was run as either a 4- or 5-speed unit depending on the track and model type (K models usually going 4-speed, LH 5-speed). Same internals, but they would just block off 5th gear and select ratios to suit a given track with only four gears; an easy thing to do as the power band is quite wide and the engine doesn't need to be up at the top of its range for best performance. Standard differential was a ZF with 75% locking (8 clutches, 40° ramps) and preload. Track tests were done with 25% locking and steady state handling improved slightly, but sudden throttle lifting would then cause the car to instantly spin out.

K models tended to be lighter, even needing ballast to get up to the 800kg minimum, and roughly a 63.5% rear weight bias.

Suspension design is nothing too special and typical of the time: double wishbones up front, radius rods plus inverted lower wishbone at the rear. This is another area with great documentation for camber and toe changes w.r.t. suspension motion, which where is a fair amount of both. Matching that in our model and using real setup values from the period all works out to make good sense; they often ran zero, or even positive, camber at the rear and quite a lot of toe-in at both ends. The camber helps agility at low speed while the toe-in stabilizes, and it all cancels out at high speed under aero load such that the rear tires stand perfectly upright when you are over 200mph, which is good for endurance of the tire carcass. Progressive springs/geometry were used in the design, complicating matters, but some track aero tests provide spring compression for a known aero load so working out typical average rates for the suspension stiffness was easy and drove well from the start on those numbers. The blueprints plus old setup sheets also helped to work out wheel rate for typical anti-roll bar sizes used. Easy stuff and all just works when we put it on the car.

Like the 911 Carrera 2.8 RSR, this was the very beginning of the wind tunnel era and it helped them make one slippery car. Downforce levels are nothing astounding, but useful and well-balanced for high speed stability. Drag levels are astonishingly low at around 400lb for the 917K, making it good for over 350km/h while feeling perfectly comfortable through the Mulsanne kink flat out. Overall a very easy drive at just about any track with great stability and tons of grip from the giant, 14.5" wide rear tires. Feels like they would be good for cruising around at race pace all day long, which is what they were designed to do.


Porsche 908/03: It's like the 917's flyweight sibling and was a surprise highlight of the group for me. Same chassis frame design, same suspension geometry, same width tires, same basic layout of flat engine mounted in the middle driving through a 5-speed gearbox to ZF differential at the rear. Differences largely boiled down to the engine, aero concept, and materials selection.

The engine was an evolution of Porsche's flat-8 design, going from 2.2L and 270hp in the 1966 910 models to the 3.0L unit here good for a quoted 350hp@8500rpm though the best examples were making upward of 370hp. Not nearly the power levels of F1-derived units it competed against in the Group 6 P3.0 class (you will have moments begging the car for a little more top speed) but it was reliable, had a strong power band from 6600-8700rpm and, most importantly, was very lightweight. The 5-speed gearbox and differential bore a lot of similarity to the 906, 907, and 910 before it (and even the Carrera RSR) with the ZF 80% lock differential being commonly used; default setup on ours uses the 40% lock configuration as it's a bit easier to approach for a starting point.

Rules of the day very clearly put an advantage to the S5.0 class cars at long races on fast tracks like Daytona, Sebring, Le Mans, and Spa. As the 917 was already doing well there, this allowed Porsche to give clear focus on making the 908/03 a tool specifically for winning at the twistier tracks where the absence of a minimum weight could be put to good use - particularly the Nordschleife and Targa Florio. Aerodynamically, this meant cutting off the roof to save weight with spyder bodywork and a short tail design. Lots of iteration and wind tunnel testing from the 908/02 to 908/03 models resulted in a car that made a nice amount of useful downforce (around 450lb @ 150mph) with a useful balance (around 60% rear) without too much sensitivity to ride height changes, and all for only 10-15% more drag than the 917K design (40-50% more than the 917LH).

Then there was extensive use of magnesium, aluminum, and titanium through the chassis to cut weight as expense of reliability, knowing that the car would be used more for 1000km races rather than 24hr endurance fests. All-aluminum chassis frame weighed in at only 35kg, titanium usage throughout the suspension, magnesium in the gearbox and brakes trimmed weight further. A clever use of epoxy around foam core even resulted in an entire bodyshell for a mass of only 12kg. They even experimented with chome-plated beryllium brake rotors for a further 30lb weight savings, but the wear characteristics of these were sub-optimal. In the end, they had a car which tipped the scales at only 545kg - on average between 100-140kg lighter than any other 3.0L prototype - with a near-ideal weight balance of 55% rear.

So you've got a prototype sport racer as light as an F1 car of the era with just as much rubber and more usable downforce. A bit down on power, comparatively, but it more than compensates for it with the aero grip and nimble handling. One of these broke the 1969 F1 Nordschleife record in 1971 on the way to a 1-2-3 finish in the 1000km race. (granted, F1 retook the record later that year by over 20s) On our modern Nordschleife track, I'm comfortably lapping near 7-minutes flat in this. The 917K feels fat and lumbering by contrast (at all of 800kg!) and is about 10s per lap slower. The situation reverses, of course, going to Le Mans where the 917 can use its power advantage and pull a 15s lead per lap. There are a bunch of tracks in between those two where they come out just about equal - like Oulton Park - and they should make for some great multiplayer competition.


2017 Porsche 991 RSR: What started as a variant of the 991 GT3 R has ended up with quite a different feel thanks to the increased front weight distribution and completely different suspension concept.

The engine begins with the same 4.0L base as the GT3 car, but they must work some serious magic on it for the LM GTE spec RSR. Same layout and capacity with smaller restrictors - 2x31.5mm vs. 2x40mm - and it makes more power than the GT3 car at 520hp. Best guess is the thing would be close to 700hp if run unrestricted...which, IMHO, the FIA/ACO should allow since these are all more like prototypes than GT cars anyway. Still revs to 9400rpm like the GT3, but the smaller restrictor mean power drops off earlier and it is best between 8000rpm and the shift point of 8500rpm. Steering light LEDs reflect this.

Gearbox is your typical 6-speed sequential with a nice array of ratios to select from. Differential is clutch & plate type with the usual Porsche locking values of 45% power / 65% coast. An option for the RSR is to use a viscous pack instead of clutch preload; personally I prefer the steadiness of clutch preload so that is how it's set up by default.

Suspension on the RSR deviates totally from the GT3 R, which must stay close to the original road car. The RSR goes double wishbone front and rear, and our reference material gave good enough data to draw up a new model to reflect what they've done here plus some baseline suspension setup info. Steering feel from the new design is nice but it's definitely a big step away from your ordinary 911. Where the GT3 is more forgiving and does a great job at planting the rear end, this one is more tuned for prototype-like sharpness and carving into high speed corners. It's a bit more 'pro' to drive and quite a bit faster over a lap as the reward.

Then there's the big feature of this car: moving the engine ahead of the rear axle to a mid-engine layout. Nobody will share hard numbers on such a sensitive topic, but our best estimations show this moves the weight distribution forward 4% to about 55.5% rear and reduces the moment of inertia by about 10% in yaw. Makes the car more nimble and does good things for cornering performance with the tire sizes used on these cars.

First tests have it running 15 lap stints at Le Mans with a best time of 3:57 and Long Beach in the mid-1:16s. Pretty close to the real world targets as those will come down with setup work and a better driver. A nice addition to our LM GTE class.


Porsche 917/10: Can-Am was so badass. Minimal rules, maximum speed and creativity. Minimum weight? Nah, we don't need that. Maximum engine size? Nah, don't need that either, and use turbos too, if you like. Just have two seats, enclosed bodywork, and 'reasonable' safety to the design.

Porsche sorta got into Can-Am by accident. They had entered a 908 because of convenience (there happened to be a shared weekend with the 6-hour Watkins Glen race) and did well, but were too far down on power to compete for a win. Further experiments with a spyder version of the 917K (near double the power of 908) were also insufficient on power. The car looked like a good base and the series a good challenge, plus they could use the additional North American exposure. Solution: Turbocharging it out the wazoo.

The engine in our model starts as the 917K base but with compression ratio lowered significantly to 6.4:1 and two giant turbos from a diesel truck strapped on, producing in the neighborhood of 1.3-1.5bar boost. At the 1.3bar race boost level, this makes for a 5.0L flat-12 outputting over 1000hp@7800rpm and 1000Nm torque in a range from 5000-7000rpm. Tighten some screws in the wastegate (this was early turbocharging, everything was mechanical) for some extra boost and you get north of 1250hp. The cooling system struggles to keep up with this for anything more than short bursts, so it was common for drivers to back off on the boost during races to save the engine.

Gearbox was an evolution of the 917 unit, strengthened to handle all the extra torque and reduced to 4 speeds. The differential was also a casualty of the design change. Tests using a spool on the 917K were positive for high speed stability and it removes another part which can break under the massive stress, so all the Can-Am 917s used a locked, spool differential.

Aero development in the wind tunnel continued, and with all that extra power, drag could be afforded for the sake of downforce production. Late versions of the 917/10 tested at around 1100lbf@150mph for downforce with a 75% rear balance and roughly 1.7:1 lift:drag efficiency. The car would make its own weight in downforce at around 180mph. Impressive numbers for the time! All of the downforce led to some suspension design changes so to reduce camber change with the travel which was inevitable under load at high speeds, plus adding back some anti-dive and anti-squat to the geometry to handle the braking and acceleration loads. Minor differences from the 917K or even 908/03, though. Old testing/race notes give some suspension stiffness targets they used; it ran very stiff at the rear to hold up almost a ton of downforce on the rear axle.

The chassis went through various lightening and strengthening phases, some even using a magnesium chassis frame that brought total weight below 800kg (1200hp to move only 800kg!) while the most successful/reliable cars from Penske weighed in at 820 and 837kg with 65% on the rear axle. To last through 200-mile races without refuelling, the cars could hold 325L of fuel in tanks either side of the cockpit. With driver weight and full fuel load, weight distribution moves forward to 59.5% rear.

Tires were big...really big. Rears are a full 17" wide tread. Think of it this way: the car is about 217cm wide and the rear tires combine for 110cm of that. The driving dynamics are very much dominated by the rear end and getting that power down. All that rubber plus a spool on the axle makes it push at low speed unless you run a very aggressive suspension setup with soft front and stiff rear. Downforce adds with speed and it is balanced enough to the rear that it also adds some understeer for the sake of planting the rear tires when the boost is on (with low rear wing settings and qualifying boost, it will spin the tires up through 150mph). Despite the tendency to understeeer, it is easy to rotate because there is always so much power on tap to help. Be ready to use the brakes a lot. It accelerates so fast that you are approaching most turns 40-50mph faster than any other car of the era. It has good enough cornering grip, but the key to performance is getting into and out of the corners like the rocket it is. Use that power and it is faster than an F1 car of the time.

Also, it does little wheelies on a hard launch. Raise the revs to build boost, dump the clutch, and this happens. This one is huge fun.

Jussi: Initial test at Nords put me at 6:32 and classic Le Mans at 2:55. That first value is as fast or faster than modern GT3s can handle Nords and almost half a minute quicker than I managed in the 917K, and the second is 20 seconds quicker than the 917 managed in 1971. Which was already 10 seconds quicker than the Ford Mk IV managed in 1967. Ludicrous machine.


Porsche 959 S: The supercar way ahead of its time.

Engine for this one was a detuned, 2.85L version of the 962 Group C race engine and one of the great cases of underrating power output. Quoted spec is only 450hp@6500rpm and 500Nm@5500rpm, all arriving thanks to boost pressures in the range of 1.9-2.1bar absolute. A fairly modest output for the top speed which was independently tested many times in the 197-200mph range. The owner’s manual includes a ‘dyno plot’ and our first tests with an engine matching that plus the right amount of aero drag (a very slippery claim of Cd=0.31) resulted in a top speed of only 175mph. It wasn't until adding ~70hp with a much fatter power band that the straight line performance numbers begin to make sense. I'd guess the real 959s were all producing more like 600Nm and 520hp, with over 500hp in a range from 6000rpm right up to the 7600rpm rev limit. Beefy.

Gearbox is a 6-speed manual, though it is is technically only labeled a 5-speed in the car with an additional gear for off-road. '1st' is quite short and is labeled 'G' for 'terrain' use. For most circuit driving, it does work best to think of 2nd as the lowest gear in slow corners and 1st/G only for rolling out of the pits or off the starting line.

Suspension differs from your typical 911 in that it uses a basic double-wishbone configuration. Each corner had a pair of coilovers and these could be actively adjusted for both damping rate and ride height in the Komfort model. The 959S Sport model bypassed that for stiffer springs and fixed damping to save weight.

The AWD system in this car was remarkable for the time. Rather than a center differential, it has a set of electronically-controlled clutches connecting the driveshaft to the front differential. The computers take into account static and dynamic weight distribution, wheel slip and surface grip, plus a number of other factors and send between 20-40% of the torque to the front axle. (alternatively, the driver can fully lock those clutches for off-road/low-grip use. Center spool option in game does this.) To make this work, the front tires are sized 1% bigger than the rears so that there is always some degree of slip at the central clutch to enable the variable torque transfer. We mimic this in game with a set of centrifugal clutches with the right range of torque holding capacity in the middle of the car. Altogether great for acceleration and high-speed stability, but the drawback of this is that there was always 20-40% of the engine torque being used to drive the front wheels forward; meaning some of the front tires' lateral grip capacity was compromised and the car generally understeers on power. Road tests from when the car was new point out this tendency to power understeer and that the rear end only really steps out via aggressive trail braking, after which is can easily be brought back in line by using power to pull the car straight. The fastest approach to most corners on a paved circuit is to be tidy on the entry and position the car to get back on power rapidly just past the apex.

The car's aerodynamics were focused heavily on drag reduction to get those high top speeds. Porsche marketed the design as being "zero lift". That's a great accomplishment considering the 911's reputation for lift-induced handling issues, but zero lift also means zero downforce. Combined with the car's hefty mass (Sport model over 1530kg in independent tests) and narrow tires (only 235-wide front and 255 at the rear), the 'supercar' performance on this one mostly comes via the fantastic engine and its ability to pull so strongly out of corners to a big top speed.

The cornering speed deficit hold it back from being truly supercar-fast on a dry circuit. Comparison tests of a 959 Komfort against the Ferrari F40 at Fiorano put the F40 at somewhere between a 6-10s per lap advantage...and that’s a short lap. In game, our 959S is roughly a 7:40 car at the Nordschleife. Not slow, for sure, but a ways off other iconic supercars which had more focus put on speed through curvy sections of track. Still, the car was a remarkable technical achievement, has wonderful handling manner on track, and is great fun to turn laps in even if it's not going to be setting any world records. Take it to the RX tracks too; it is a great match for that type of driving.


Jussi: Side note: The same basic system was later used for cars like the Nissan Skyline GT-R (and the current GT-R), Lamborghini Huracan and a ton of other cars, and the modern Haldex system is essentially a reversed version of this system (front-wheel drive with an electronic clutch to transmit power to the rear when necessary). Definitely ahead of its time.

Tank621
08-03-2018, 23:00
I love this stuff, always a fascinating read

David Wright
09-03-2018, 00:11
Thanks for these posts - they are really appreciated.

Paul Frere's books really are amazing. However, wind tunnel data from the period was not reliable so be careful putting too much reliance on it. The photos in Paul's books show the cars suspended well off the wind tunnel floor. Porsche already suspected this back in 1970 when they did the suspension compression measurements on the 917.

In Norbert Singer's book 24:16 on page 49 he says many years later they took a 917/30 from the museum and measured the downforce again in a modern facility. The downforce figure measured was 55% higher than the figure measured in the old wind tunnel.

Casey Ringley
09-03-2018, 00:53
Indeed. One of the books talks about how the wind tunnel numbers didn't match with measurements done from an instrumented track test. They were in the very early stages of figuring this stuff out. Still useful for watching trends much in the same way as dyno testing an engine.

BrainsBush
09-03-2018, 06:58
Great read and in depth knowledge. Much appreciated :encouragement:

APR193
09-03-2018, 10:01
Great read as always, but a word of warning that I feel you have mentioned a car we don't yet know about in the final sentence for the 2.8 RSR

Barmydoughnut24
09-03-2018, 10:01
"Multi-class at Le Mans with this will be great fun; 911 giving all it's got for 250km/h on the Mulsanne while the 917 and 512M blast by doing closer to 390km/h!"

Is that conformation then of the ferrari 512m then to come in either of the final 2 DLC packs???!!! ;) ;)

Lewy
09-03-2018, 10:15
Really interesting read.
Makes you realise just how much work and passion goes into each and every car in this game.
Much appreciated thanks.

John Hargreaves
09-03-2018, 11:47
If this much work goes into an arcade game, I dread to think what's involved in a proper sim ;) Great read as ever Casey, sharing these notes is one of the highlights of the DLC packs.

PostBox981
09-03-2018, 12:00
From now on all the guys going "Devs don´t care" or "Devs don´t post around here" should be automatically linked to this (highly appreciated) wall of text.

Great read, so much background on our new models and so much passion from the Blue Guys. Thanks! :cool:

rich1e I
09-03-2018, 12:44
Absolutely love reading this stuff! It gives DLCs a completely new dimension, from being a square it becomes a cube. Awesome.

Invincible
09-03-2018, 13:16
Absolutely love reading this stuff! It gives DLCs a completely new dimension, from being a square it becomes a cube. Awesome.

You mean it adds some depth? ;)

balderz002
09-03-2018, 13:22
"Multi-class at Le Mans with this will be great fun; 911 giving all it's got for 250km/h on the Mulsanne while the 917 and 512M blast by doing closer to 390km/h!"

Is that conformation then of the ferrari 512m then to come in either of the final 2 DLC packs???!!! ;) ;)

I PICKED UP ON THAT TOO!!!

Then when he puts a comment in for Jussi and mentioned classic Le Mans times in the bit about the 917/10............. Oh you tease Casey!!

Barmydoughnut24
09-03-2018, 13:45
Im also a big fan of this thread. I know it would be too much to ask for this on all of the base game cars, but would it be possible to do this for some of the more obscure cars, a few sms favourites. Possibly write up on once a week/month as they give a really good insight behind the history of the cars and also some insight into why certain cars were picked for the game.

Bealdor
09-03-2018, 14:03
Im also a big fan of this thread. I know it would be too much to ask for this on all of the base game cars, but would it be possible to do this for some of the more obscure cars, a few sms favourites. Possibly write up on once a week/month as they give a really good insight behind the history of the cars and also some insight into why certain cars were picked for the game.

Tons of news articles about base game cars can be found here (https://www.projectcarsgame.com/news/).

RomKnight
09-03-2018, 14:51
One (at least I) can't ever be bored of reading this.

Short of owning said books with not even mild understanding of engineering (in my case) these beverage and snacks reading posts are a joy so, again, very appreciated.

Thank you (also, again) Casey for the insight.

No need to mention Doug must need a serious medical intervention to take the smile of is face :D
IIRC Doug used to race a 914/2 which I so dearly miss from S2:U :( and is obviously a Porsche fan hence the comment :)

Christiaan van Beilen
09-03-2018, 21:09
Wasn't Doug's car a 914/6? The number 20 car in the below clip is Doug Arnao's car at least. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oziaJTkp0ag

Doug914
09-03-2018, 22:50
Yes, correct. Thats me there at the SCCA Nation championships circa 1989. I finished 3rd that year. Here's few pics of the car including the bare tube-chassis I built:
251536
251537
251538
251539

Christiaan van Beilen
10-03-2018, 00:19
Yes, correct. Thats me there at the SCCA Nation championships circa 1989. I finished 3rd that year. Here's few pics of the car including the bare tube-chassis I built

Your choice of car was made you easy to spot that year it seems, between all those 944s out there.

Now that I look at your pics I really notice that you had to widen those rear arches compared to the base model 914 for those wide tires. Actually looking at it, it does kind of seem similar to the '78 Carrera RSR we have in game in terms of track width and tire width front and rear. Were there regulations that made you go for that tire width at the time or was there just a need for grip?

That tube-chassis really looks skillfully made although quite heavy as well, at least compared to the thin pressurized tube-frames of some factory Porsches of old (like some in-game). I guess the complete car in the end had a curb weight of around... 720kg ish?

At least the frame has kept you safe from harm so you're with us today to bring us almost the same joy as you must've had in those days. Although the frustrations of building the cars still falls on you, Doug, and the rest of the team. I guess us sim racers are more those chaps at Goodwood. We'll simply get in any car given to us and drive the hell out of them. :p

Doug914
10-03-2018, 02:10
I ran the max tire and track widths allowed by the rules at the time. Thats what drove the bodywork. The car weighed 1780 lbs and needed an additional 150lbs of ballast to get it up to the minimum weight. The ballast was placed to off set my weight and get the car as balanced as possible on all four corners it was 45/55 weight balance, which imho is nearly perfect for a racecar. 7 lap records and 31 wins in a short time span proved it out.

John Hargreaves
10-03-2018, 08:51
That's a great little car Doug, I've always thought we should have it in PC2. Maybe one day.

Mark Race
10-03-2018, 09:12
Great read thank you for posting this it really demonstrates the dedication that has been put into the creation of these cars. Each car really does feel alive and full of character.

Thanks for those example lap times too, good to know I'm in the right ball park. The 908 is truly special at the Nordshcleife so intuitive even at and sometimes beyond the limit of grip.

morpwr
10-03-2018, 11:11
Yes, correct. Thats me there at the SCCA Nation championships circa 1989. I finished 3rd that year. Here's few pics of the car including the bare tube-chassis I built:
251536
251537
251538
251539

Bet you wish you still had the original 914/6 today. Who knew they would be worth a good chuck of money some day?lol

Christiaan van Beilen
10-03-2018, 12:02
I ran the max tire and track widths allowed by the rules at the time. Thats what drove the bodywork. The car weighed 1780 lbs and needed an additional 150lbs of ballast to get it up to the minimum weight. The ballast was placed to off set my weight and get the car as balanced as possible on all four corners it was 45/55 weight balance, which imho is nearly perfect for a racecar. 7 lap records and 31 wins in a short time span proved it out.

So to convert it to metric that is 807kg + 68kg ballast. Totalling 875kg.
You had to bring it back up quite a bit, but converting it to metric I realize just how much it did allow you to find a sweat spot for your CoG.

I guess you also placed the fuel tank in a different spot than normal? Since you build a new chassis and I am guessing regulations would dictate how big and of what materials a fuel tank should be. Unless of course that location was fixed too.


She really sounds like a great car, Doug. A weight ratio of 45/55 with that car is a nice achievement.

How many cars did you end up racing or even building?

Doug914
10-03-2018, 16:13
Bet you wish you still had the original 914/6 today. Who knew they would be worth a good chuck of money some day?lol

Although i did have a few original 914/6's this race car was built completly from scratch. I bought a new windshield / cowl from the dealer , a spare top i had, plus the rear tailight section was removed from a wreck - and the rest was fabricated or fiberglass. So no original Six was cut up.

Doug914
10-03-2018, 16:17
I built Porsche racecars for a living for about 12 years , so quite a few , mostly 911's , and still do dabble in it. Personally i raced a tub 914/6, this tube frame 914/6 and a 911 RSR clone that i co drove in long HSR races in the 90's.

Mad Al
10-03-2018, 16:25
OK, that's it.. time to fire up GT Legends for a few laps in the 914 around Mondello Park .... :)

David Wright
10-03-2018, 17:18
OK, that's it.. time to fire up GT Legends for a few laps in the 914 around Mondello Park .... :)

The GTL 914 has a little bug in the rear tyres. If you have the steam version or decrypted version go to steam - steamapps - common - GT Legends - gamedata - teams and find the Dunlop DO1J.tyr file

open it with notepad and look for the line

Temperatures=(9.0,20.0)

a few lines off the bottom. Edit the 9.0 to read 90.0 It will stop your rear tyres overheating

Mad Al
10-03-2018, 17:24
The GTL 914 has a little bug in the rear tyres. If you have the steam version or decrypted version go to steam - steamapps - common - GT Legends - gamedata - teams and find the Dunlop DO1J.tyr file

open it with notepad and look for the line

Temperatures=(9.0,20.0)

a few lines off the bottom. Edit the 9.0 to read 90.0 It will stop your rear tyres overheating

Nope, mine came on one of those old fashioned shiny disc things.. ;)

Christiaan van Beilen
10-03-2018, 19:19
Although i did have a few original 914/6's this race car was built completly from scratch. I bought a new windshield / cowl from the dealer , a spare top i had, plus the rear tailight section was removed from a wreck - and the rest was fabricated or fiberglass. So no original Six was cut up.


I built Porsche racecars for a living for about 12 years , so quite a few , mostly 911's , and still do dabble in it. Personally i raced a tub 914/6, this tube frame 914/6 and a 911 RSR clone that i co drove in long HSR races in the 90's.

With those skills and that knowledge I wish I was your neighbor. If you'd be willing to help this poor sod in making his own Porsche or restore one, and teach a younger generation a thing or two. I'd love to own an old Carrera RS or even just a clone, but with today's Porsche prices... Ouch!

12 years of race car building knowledge and skills. That's something to surely be proud of.
Although I do wonder. I never knew Porsche was a big thing (on the roads) in the USA or any Euro car for that matter compared to natively produced cars. How did you end up with such an job where you'd end up building Porsches for such a long time?

Somehow I start to feel like an interviewer now. I just admire you and everyone else in the team, and each of you have such interesting backgrounds. I mean, in your case you got to building foreign cars, build them for racing from scratch. Than end up being successful whilst racing your own creations, than only to somehow end up with Papyrus and sim racing. Only to finally settle down at Ian's place which is now called Slightly Mad Studios.

Quite a career and legacy in my opinion, and that's just Doug Arnao we're talking about. There is this whole bunch of other slightly mad folk with some crazy history of their own. :)

lurkusmaximus
10-03-2018, 21:14
Great read thank you for posting this it really demonstrates the dedication that has been put into the creation of these cars. Each car really does feel alive and full of character.

Thanks for those example lap times too, good to know I'm in the right ball park. The 908 is truly special at the Nordshcleife so intuitive even at and sometimes beyond the limit of grip.

Totally agree with you. The attention to detail in all aspects of Project Cars 2, is what makes so many of us fanatical about this game. Keep pumping out DLC like this, and we will keep purchasing them. Incredible job for the entire team.

Mad Al
10-03-2018, 22:27
OK, that's it.. time to fire up GT Legends for a few laps in the 914 around Mondello Park .... :)

Sad, reply to my own post..

Wow, forgotten how much fun that combo is... added bonus, SSH shifter works well with GTL, just need to get used to having it on the "wrong" side (otherwise getting in and out of the seat would be massive P.I.T.A).. also being old, I'm breaking in a new pair of slippers, so heal/toe is a little off ;)

Christiaan van Beilen
11-03-2018, 02:22
Sad, reply to my own post..

Wow, forgotten how much fun that combo is... added bonus, SSH shifter works well with GTL, just need to get used to having it on the "wrong" side (otherwise getting in and out of the seat would be massive P.I.T.A).. also being old, I'm breaking in a new pair of slippers, so heal/toe is a little off ;)

Slippers eh? I am wearing slippers like this normally:

https://s.s-bol.com/imgbase0/imagebase3/large/FC/0/6/5/9/9200000082739560.jpg


So I guess I am not the only one in the slipper racing lunatic asylum? lmao :p

PostBox981
11-03-2018, 13:31
You don´t use these for driving, do you.

morpwr
11-03-2018, 13:36
Although i did have a few original 914/6's this race car was built completly from scratch. I bought a new windshield / cowl from the dealer , a spare top i had, plus the rear tailight section was removed from a wreck - and the rest was fabricated or fiberglass. So no original Six was cut up.

I have a 914/4 right now. Don't ask how I acquired it but its twin broke in half when we went to pull them out of the garage.

Doug914
11-03-2018, 15:48
Racing and building racecars was drivien by my own desire to race and be the best i could at it. When that happened , people started asking me build them cars. So i never worked for anyone doing that. Always worked for myself. The race shop was at my house and still is.
Edit: Whoops, forgot to quote christian

RomKnight
11-03-2018, 16:14
Sorry for the late reply.

Memory seems to be failing with age :D but I was close enough on the Porsche used :p

Doesn't change how cool the S2:U model is and how Doug must've enjoyed working on this DLC in particular :)

Christiaan van Beilen
11-03-2018, 20:40
You don´t use these for driving, do you.

I put my shoes on when going out into the world, but for some practice fun and when I am too bored to put shoes on I'll just get into the rig with these. I hope that satisfies the question? Maybe it's cause I'm Dutch... clog history and all. lmao :p

Christiaan van Beilen
11-03-2018, 20:54
Racing and building racecars was drivien by my own desire to race and be the best i could at it. When that happened , people started asking me build them cars. So i never worked for anyone doing that. Always worked for myself. The race shop was at my house and still is.
Edit: Whoops, forgot to quote christian

I can't even weld let alone know enough to build my own tube frame for say... a kart. Not to mention the fact that I live row house with no garage, so if I work on my car at all it's out on the street. I did start to do my own maintenance with my E46 now, so maybe I'll someday get some skills going. :)

It's a great hobby (turned into a job) to have for sure. For some reason just talking to you and racing these virtual replicas of Porsches in the game makes me want to restore a Porsche for starters, but first I would need to get a job that pays enough to make such a thing happen.

Talking about Porsches though. You said you still dabbled in building them. Are those only old models or are you getting into more modern stuff nowadays as well?

ermo
12-03-2018, 12:23
Yes, correct. Thats me there at the SCCA Nation championships circa 1989. I finished 3rd that year. Here's few pics of the car including the bare tube-chassis I built:
251539

Possibly a (really!) stupid question, but did you ever have anyone do a FEM analysis on that frame to get an idea where the weakest spots were and where you would have had large stress concentrations?

Or was it all 'fly by the seat of the pants based on experience'?

morpwr
12-03-2018, 12:31
Possibly a (really!) stupid question, but did you ever have anyone do a FEM analysis on that frame to get an idea where the weakest spots were and where you would have had large stress concentrations?

Or was it all 'fly by the seat of the pants based on experience'?


Looking at the picture id guess that frame was really strong with the amount of tubes that are triangulated. Especially for the weight of the car.

Doug914
12-03-2018, 13:23
Possibly a (really!) stupid question, but did you ever have anyone do a FEM analysis on that frame to get an idea where the weakest spots were and where you would have had large stress concentrations?

Or was it all 'fly by the seat of the pants based on experience'?

I did do FEA. I used ALGOR at the time. It's main use was to decide on tube pacement in the engine bay to spread the load in that more open area. I don't remeber or think i saved the actual lbs force per degree. It was plenty strong though. About 4 times a stock tub if i rember right. Some more pics:

251723
251724
251725
251726
251727
251729
251730

Doug914
12-03-2018, 13:27
In the last pic, you can see my origianal #22 stock tub based racecar in the backround. It's what I learned most of what i had to do and optimize to make this tube car so sucessfull.

OddTimer
12-03-2018, 13:39
In the last pic, you can see my origianal #22 stock tub based racecar in the backround. It's what I learned most of what i had to do and optimize to make this tube car so sucessfull.

Ninja skills, seriously!

morpwr
12-03-2018, 13:52
In the last pic, you can see my origianal #22 stock tub based racecar in the backround. It's what I learned most of what i had to do and optimize to make this tube car so sucessfull.

I like how it looks like you really thought about having to work on it later. I work on a lot of custom stuff that is an absolute nightmare because nobody ever thought about having to fix it later. Really nice work!

Doug914
12-03-2018, 14:05
I like how it looks like you really thought about having to work on it later. I work on a lot of custom stuff that is an absolute nightmare because nobody ever thought about having to fix it later. Really nice work!

Yes EXACTLY. This was actually the second tube frame car i built. The first I didn't think through having to work on it and it was a nightmare at times. I learned that lesson with this one. It was extemely easy to work on. :)

Christiaan van Beilen
12-03-2018, 14:41
I actually picked my current car (BMW 3 series e46) because it's easy to work on. At least I didn't want to spend an hour on changing a light bulb like on a VW Golf.

Ease of maintenance is definitely a must have whether you build and race cars or just own one. The more you can do (and can do alone) in a so short amount of time, the cheaper it is and the more time you have to spend on other things.

morpwr
12-03-2018, 16:31
I actually picked my current car (BMW 3 series e46) because it's easy to work on. At least I didn't want to spend an hour on changing a light bulb like on a VW Golf.

Ease of maintenance is definitely a must have whether you build and race cars or just own one. The more you can do (and can do alone) in a so short amount of time, the cheaper it is and the more time you have to spend on other things.

You definitely don't want an impala then. 3 hours to change the headlight because you have to remove the bumper or 3 to change the third brake light because you have to remove most of the rear interior.

Invincible
12-03-2018, 17:28
You definitely don't want an impala then. 3 hours to change the headlight because you have to remove the bumper or 3 to change the third brake light because you have to remove most of the rear interior.

Still better than some early Ferrari where the engine had to be taken out to change the spark plugs.

morpwr
12-03-2018, 17:46
Still better than some early Ferrari where the engine had to be taken out to change the spark plugs.

I don't remember which but either Ford or Chrysler had some like that too when they started putting big blocks in the smaller cars. You either drilled holes in the wheel well or pulled the motor. Either way ill pass. And everyone thinks the old cars where easier to work on. lol We are showing our age...

Konan
12-03-2018, 17:58
I don't remember which but either Ford or Chrysler had some like that too when they started putting big blocks in the smaller cars. You either drilled holes in the wheel well or pulled the motor. Either way ill pass. And everyone thinks the old cars where easier to work on. lol We are showing our age...

I can put a fully extended ratchet at any angle in the engine bay of my little 20 year old Corsa and still wouldn't hit anything when ratching...LOL

Edit:sorry for the off topic :rolleyes:

Invincible
12-03-2018, 19:20
I can put a fully extended ratchet at any angle in the engine bay of my little 20 year old Corsa and still wouldn't hit anything when ratching...LOL

Edit:sorry for the off topic :rolleyes:

That's because the tiny engine :p put a c20let in it and place will be something you had it the past:D

Christiaan van Beilen
12-03-2018, 20:07
You definitely don't want an impala then. 3 hours to change the headlight because you have to remove the bumper or 3 to change the third brake light because you have to remove most of the rear interior.

Nope, that would be a definitive big no on my side. In my opinion if there is one thing governments should regulate is that you should be able to easily change any light bulb on a car by yourself in under 10 minutes, even for those who have to left hands and no brain capacity to spare. I mean that with no offense as there are just those in our community that are less capable than an average person and if these people can drive they should also know some basic DIY maintenance. Especially lights as that's for both your own safety and that of others.

But yeah, goes to show indeed that old cars or new cars... in every age there are 'trouble' cars in the sense of not being able to have easy access.

In my case I installed a removable towing hitch on the car. It took me as an amateur 1 day to install the hitch and another for routing and hooking up the electronics. Not bad if I says so myself. :)

morpwr
12-03-2018, 20:17
Nope, that would be a definitive big no on my side. In my opinion if there is one thing governments should regulate is that you should be able to easily change any light bulb on a car by yourself in under 10 minutes, even for those who have to left hands and no brain capacity to spare. I mean that with no offense as there are just those in our community that are less capable than an average person and if these people can drive they should also know some basic DIY maintenance. Especially lights as that's for both your own safety and that of others.

But yeah, goes to show indeed that old cars or new cars... in every age there are 'trouble' cars in the sense of not being able to have easy access.

In my case I installed a removable towing hitch on the car. It took me as an amateur 1 day to install the hitch and another for routing and hooking up the electronics. Not bad if I says so myself. :)


I own a shop and I totally agree there is no reason for things that should be simple to be that difficult. You should try explaining to a customer why their 20 dollar headlight cost 200 dollars to put in.

Christiaan van Beilen
12-03-2018, 20:38
I own a shop and I totally agree there is no reason for things that should be simple to be that difficult. You should try explaining to a customer why their 20 dollar headlight cost 200 dollars to put in.

Yeah, I'm sure you get a lot of furious red faces at times for such matters. Never to have them return again in some cases, yet they'll only find the same issue somewhere else.

That said. I really hate how many cars I see nowadays with broken or badly aimed lights these days, at least in the Netherlands. Not only headlights but rear lights, brake lights and so on.

Not to even get started about bicyclists in our country. Broken lights, lights on places they shouldn't be (the head, the bag, etc) so that you can't judge the vehicle's size, ghost driving their bicycles against you because they don't want to take the roundabout you just exited and thus they try to cut it, no signaling with the hands but rather stroking their darn mobile phones. Oh, and they also love to run red lights every now and again and continue even if they see you coming for them.

Sometimes I wish I drove something substantial with a bull bar as at times I'd love to go full carmageddon. How civilized racing is in comparison to driving on the public road... holy moly! :eek:

morpwr
12-03-2018, 20:54
Yeah, I'm sure you get a lot of furious red faces at times for such matters. Never to have them return again in some cases, yet they'll only find the same issue somewhere else.

That said. I really hate how many cars I see nowadays with broken or badly aimed lights these days, at least in the Netherlands. Not only headlights but rear lights, brake lights and so on.

Not to even get started about bicyclists in our country. Broken lights, lights on places they shouldn't be (the head, the bag, etc) so that you can't judge the vehicle's size, ghost driving their bicycles against you because they don't want to take the roundabout you just exited and thus they try to cut it, no signaling with the hands but rather stroking their darn mobile phones. Oh, and they also love to run red lights every now and again and continue even if they see you coming for them.

Sometimes I wish I drove something substantial with a bull bar as at times I'd love to go full carmageddon. How civilized racing is in comparison to driving on the public road... holy moly! :eek:


That brings up a funny story from over there. I had a customer stop in because he got stopped by the police because his brake lights were stuck on. Now mind you this was a European car. So I look and sure enough there are bright lights in the back like brake lights but not where they should be. So now I'm totally confused because his brake lights do work but theres an extra set that are just on. Turns out it had rear fog lights that are a European thing that he didn't know he had and I had never seen before. I guess they are for the snow over there?

Christiaan van Beilen
12-03-2018, 21:24
That brings up a funny story from over there. I had a customer stop in because he got stopped by the police because his brake lights were stuck on. Now mind you this was a European car. So I look and sure enough there are bright lights in the back like brake lights but not where they should be. So now I'm totally confused because his brake lights do work but theres an extra set that are just on. Turns out it had rear fog lights that are a European thing that he didn't know he had and I had never seen before. I guess they are for the snow over there?

To quote the Dutch (The Netherlands) Government site: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/verkeersveiligheid/vraag-en-antwoord/wanneer-moet-ik-mijn-autoverlichting-gebruiken


Het mistlicht aan de voorkant mag u alleen gebruiken als mist, sneeuwval of regen het zicht ernstig belemmeren. Het mistachterlicht mag u alleen gebruiken bij mist of sneeuwval waardoor het zicht minder is dan 50 meter. Bij zware regen mag u het mistachterlicht niet gebruiken. Als de mistlichten branden, hoeven de dimlichten niet aan.


Or in English:

You are only allowed to use the fog light on the front side during fog, snowfall or rain if the view is seriously hindered. You are only allowed to use the rear fog light during fog or snowfall that causes a limited range of sight that is 50 meters or less. During heavy rain you are not allowed to use the fog light. If the fog lights are on you won't have to have the low beam switched on.

morpwr
12-03-2018, 22:00
Yeah we don't have those over here well unless its on a European car apparently. Ive only seen it that one time. Is it a normal thing over there to have rear fog lights?

Bealdor
12-03-2018, 22:03
Yeah we don't have those over here well unless its on a European car apparently. Ive only seen it that one time. Is it a normal thing over there to have rear fog lights?

They're mandatory, at least here in Germany.

Konan
12-03-2018, 22:11
Yup...Belgium also...

morpwr
12-03-2018, 22:30
Yup...Belgium also...

They should have them here the way people drive. But I'm guessing most wouldn't be smart enough to figure out what they are.

Konan
12-03-2018, 22:33
They should have them here the way people drive. But I'm guessing most wouldn't be smart enough to figure out what they are.

Well if the cops don't even know what they are to begin with...:p

Invincible
12-03-2018, 22:49
They should have them here the way people drive. But I'm guessing most wouldn't be smart enough to figure out what they are.

Neither are people here. They're only to be on for view distances below 50m. Yet many people use them when it's drizzling or view is below 300m

Christiaan van Beilen
12-03-2018, 22:57
Yeah we don't have those over here well unless its on a European car apparently. Ive only seen it that one time. Is it a normal thing over there to have rear fog lights?

Mandatory in The Netherlands too, but I think this is something regulation from European Union level... so from Brussel.



@Doug:
I've got an AI issue for you, mate. Full grid of Porsche 917/10 (Turbo Panzer? That Can-Am monster!) at Bathurst will cause a HUGE pile-up in the first two corners. So the before the first one after the start and the second one where you start going uphill. This is with default opponent level and aggression on a same class race. Weather... well, real time summer Australian weather at real time... blue skies and hot. :)

PostBox981
13-03-2018, 06:59
Neither are people here. They're only to be on for view distances below 50m. Yet many people use them when it's drizzling or view is below 300m

...and finally forget about them for the next few days so you run blind when chasing them. :hopelessness:

morpwr
13-03-2018, 10:46
Back on topic.lol Doug the rsr is amazing !!Along with the rest of the pack! I'm not a huge Porsche fan normally but these cars are sooooo much fun to drive.:D

poirqc
13-03-2018, 13:03
The 959 is just awesome! :D The sound of the engine, rough clancky metal. :o

It's just so much fun to trow around at Doningtion. Cool thing about it is when i push to much, the rear end will snap at some point. As soon as it happen, i can recover while doing a long sideway drift and moving along.

It's not fast, but really fun! :D

morpwr
14-03-2018, 11:46
The 959 is just awesome! :D The sound of the engine, rough clancky metal. :o

It's just so much fun to trow around at Doningtion. Cool thing about it is when i push to much, the rear end will snap at some point. As soon as it happen, i can recover while doing a long sideway drift and moving along.

It's not fast, but really fun! :D

Tried that one at willow springs last night. Started out foggy then light rain and yes that car is a ton of fun. That track is perfect for those long drifts.:) I was actually surprised by how quick it was compared to some of the cars in the class.

chieflongshin
14-03-2018, 18:35
Has the BHPs been updated for the cars yet.The 959 on mine is barely making 400bhp

poirqc
14-03-2018, 19:36
Has the BHPs been updated for the cars yet.The 959 on mine is barely making 400bhp

It's probably the bug where the Turbo doesn't kick in, It's a known issue.

Konan
14-03-2018, 20:55
Has the BHPs been updated for the cars yet.The 959 on mine is barely making 400bhp

You can find the workarounds here :

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?61641-Workarounds-in-OP-New-Porsche-DLC-is-broken-bugged

Doug914
16-03-2018, 11:11
Mandatory in The Netherlands too, but I think this is something regulation from European Union level... so from Brussel.



@Doug:
I've got an AI issue for you, mate. Full grid of Porsche 917/10 (Turbo Panzer? That Can-Am monster!) at Bathurst will cause a HUGE pile-up in the first two corners. So the before the first one after the start and the second one where you start going uphill. This is with default opponent level and aggression on a same class race. Weather... well, real time summer Australian weather at real time... blue skies and hot. :)

A little wild, but fine enough here. Tried 5 starts with 20 AI. Anyway, i'm sure you'll occasionally get the "big one" with them, but these cars are just crazy, and a bunch of no fear AI driving them makes it wild :)

Christiaan van Beilen
16-03-2018, 14:12
A little wild, but fine enough here. Tried 5 starts with 20 AI. Anyway, i'm sure you'll occasionally get the "big one" with them, but these cars are just crazy, and a bunch of no fear AI driving them makes it wild :)

It is indeed quite a rodeo ride with them. Rather than this car having horsepowers I'd rather think of them as wild bullpowers. lol

So yeah, if the AI is being rough with one of those bulls all hell breaks lose.

Besides that, maybe Bathurst is a little on the small side as these cars want to dance a little after all. So on a small width track it's easy for the cars to accidentally hit each other and cause mayhem.

RomKnight
16-03-2018, 15:42
bullpower... pretty sure Lamborghini has a (tm) on that word :D

senna94f1
16-03-2018, 16:27
If this much work goes into an arcade game, I dread to think what's involved in a proper sim ;) Great read as ever Casey, sharing these notes is one of the highlights of the DLC packs.

I couldn't agree more, the huge amount of work and detail gone into this sim is amazing and so more advanced then the first game pcars1 ,
And there lays the problem , people who still try to be the last of the late breakers ,which you could do quite easily in Pcars1 you cannot do in pcars2. Why , because this is a full blown sim and with so many variables , which in turn make this sim so good ,

rosko
16-03-2018, 18:51
Can i ask is 4ws of any of the newer Porsches simulated?

Doug914
20-03-2018, 11:07
It is indeed quite a rodeo ride with them. Rather than this car having horsepowers I'd rather think of them as wild bullpowers. lol

So yeah, if the AI is being rough with one of those bulls all hell breaks lose.

Besides that, maybe Bathurst is a little on the small side as these cars want to dance a little after all. So on a small width track it's easy for the cars to accidentally hit each other and cause mayhem.

Yeah i would avoid tight tracks with walls with these cars. Ha try Long Beach :) But if you do turn down agresiveness to 50%.

Christiaan van Beilen
21-03-2018, 00:54
Yeah i would avoid tight tracks with walls with these cars. Ha try Long Beach :) But if you do turn down agresiveness to 50%.

Or Monaco... which is even tighter. I mean, just think about the hairpin or the pool areas... or that tight section before start/finish around pit entry. :cower:

Doug, do you think it would be possible to make the automated syncing of the gearbox upon missed shift a switchable option like 'automatic clutch'?
I know the gearbox including clutch works very well but I also know we made some compromises here, which results in end-user remarks like below in the video and its comment section.

Besides, I selfishly also still want to learn how to double clutch manhandle that ol' Austin. ;)

The reason for me asking is because I saw this video just now (popped up in recommendations):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niUdP1_uFwI

Pigmachine
19-04-2018, 00:55
Not a part of the specific DLC (still haven't tried a single car from from anything but the Japanese DLC (Sorry! been on other adventures))
But the Porsche 918.. what the heck have happened to it? No matter the amount of fiddling around the settings, it's really odd to drive. insane understeer, that could be dialed out quite a bit earlier, that turns into extreme oversteer, until it goes full understeer again.
Even checking the leading ghost on the 918's TT looks insane on Brands Hatch GP (No I will not leave that track yet, as then I don't have anything to compare with!)

PostBox981
19-04-2018, 08:12
Not a part of the specific DLC (still haven't tried a single car from from anything but the Japanese DLC (Sorry! been on other adventures))
But the Porsche 918.. what the heck have happened to it? No matter the amount of fiddling around the settings, it's really odd to drive. insane understeer, that could be dialed out quite a bit earlier, that turns into extreme oversteer, until it goes full understeer again.
Even checking the leading ghost on the 918's TT looks insane on Brands Hatch GP (No I will not leave that track yet, as then I don't have anything to compare with!)

Hey Pigmachine, finished with hibernation? :cool:

Pigmachine
19-04-2018, 14:17
Hey Pigmachine, finished with hibernation? :cool:

Almost.. Been a virtual sniper for ~6 months in various games, (and a samurai for a few hundred hours too) so I had to pop back in and test the.. not new cars yet.

Had to drag a few Nissan cars to #1 spot (in car specific class) on Brands hatch GP, as I couldn't live with seeing the new #1 both using my #22 Nissan GT3, and using external view?! Ok that he wants to admire my beauty from the outside, but he's not supposed to be in the top spot, with default setup at the same time! ;)
Spent 2 sweaty hours setting things right again, and trying to figure out what have happened to the 918? as there is nothing wrong with the track in itself, and I were 'tipsy' enough to have fun playing again, and actually felt more 'home' then 'burned out' from racing. I deleted all my old setups, and the cars behaved quite different even with close to my normal more or less random, but still the same, setups. Most of them in a lot better way.
But the 918 were beyond fun and boring (and burned out), it were just ..odd?

No setting could help it to convince me that the front wheels were active at any speed. The all felt like the wheels of an office chair you bought from IKEA, and assembled with the help of hallucinogenics and instructions written in Chinese, with 'magic eye pictures' as illustrations.
No real criticism to the physics, as I hardly know nothing about physics, it just don't ..well feel like a car anyone can survive in without assists.

PostBox981
19-04-2018, 14:32
Almost.. Been a virtual sniper for ~6 months in various games, (and a samurai for a few hundred hours too) so I had to pop back in and test the.. not new cars yet.

Had to drag a few Nissan cars to #1 spot (in car specific class) on Brands hatch GP, as I couldn't live with seeing the new #1 both using my #22 Nissan GT3, and using external view?! Ok that he wants to admire my beauty from the outside, but he's not supposed to be in the top spot, with default setup at the same time! ;)
Spent 2 sweaty hours setting things right again, and trying to figure out what have happened to the 918? as there is nothing wrong with the track in itself, and I were 'tipsy' enough to have fun playing again, and actually felt more 'home' then 'burned out' from racing. I deleted all my old setups, and the cars behaved quite different even with close to my normal more or less random, but still the same, setups. Most of them in a lot better way.
But the 918 were beyond fun and boring (and burned out), it were just ..odd?

No setting could help it to convince me that the front wheels were active at any speed. The all felt like the wheels of an office chair you bought from IKEA, and assembled with the help of hallucinogenics and instructions written in Chinese, with 'magic eye pictures' as illustrations.
No real criticism to the physics, as I hardly know nothing about physics, it just don't ..well feel like a car anyone can survive in without assists.

Seen this (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?61269-Porsche-918-Spyder-Energy-Recuperation-basically-non-existent)? Could be the explanation for no torque on the front wheels maybe.

Pigmachine
19-04-2018, 15:08
Seen this (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?61269-Porsche-918-Spyder-Energy-Recuperation-basically-non-existent)? Could be the explanation for no torque on the front wheels maybe.

Ah... Even one of my own old 918 rants there, then a good one from Jussi..
If that isn't what is implemented right now? Then something went the wrong way with the 'feeling'
Maybe 100% correct for the car, but as I haven't seen Clarkson's gravestone yet, something else is a bit off then?
Well I haven't even tried the P1 since release.
(and I'm not allowed to show my 'Trinity Race' against my own ghosts, (during late testing) where the 918 won mainly due to me touching the outside of the track with the P1.)
Will not rant on about the 918 here, as there was a dedicated thread to it.

(Not sure I still have the video even.)

OlivierMDVY
28-04-2018, 20:10
The Porsche 917/10 understeers so much: on Brands Hatch Indy,Druids turn, this car won't turn at low speed! (about 70kph)