PDA

View Full Version : Canīt hold the position in race / AI is faster in race



yannara
17-03-2018, 10:57
Iīm having a trouble to keep my position in a race. Feels like AI is getting faster in race than in qualify or practise. Specially, last laps are hard to hold on the position. I donīt feel like I am making any mistakes. Besides, in race I thought everyone would drive little bit slower than in qualify. Also, AI gets away from me rather quickly (gap grows fast). This happens, if I keep AI the same during all sessions. I easily qualify top-5, but race is hell....

APR193
17-03-2018, 11:11
Could be a setup thing. I for instance am the complete opposite, struggle quite a lot in practice (varies per track/class, but can be just inside the top 20 in practice, although I tend not to do a a low fuel/qualy run in practice, can be right at the front if I do a low fuel run), qualy I can normally get into the top 10, can vary depending on car (Porsche 908 in VPTB I have 3/3 poles), and in the race I'm generally on the leaders pace, or at least as fast as the fastest ai in the same car. All I do other than the 10/15 minutes in qualifying though is high fuel runs, so perhaps it could just be down to experience in racing conditions, and tyre/engine conservation with regards to late race pace??

sisollazzo
17-03-2018, 16:37
Thanks for posting. I have the same problem. At the moment with FA

sisollazzo
17-03-2018, 16:39
I have compared the AI time and my and the AI is at leat 1 s faster during the race. I think this is a bug.

yannara
18-03-2018, 15:17
Could be a setup thing.
My strategy is this;
1. I learn the track in Practise with stable setup and enough fuel.
2. If in practise is still some time left, I try few laps with loose setup.
3. I qualify with few lap fuel on loose setup.
*if I spin, I try to qualify with stable setup.
4. I race with stable setup, adding always +2 additional lap fuel.

yannara
18-03-2018, 15:18
I have compared the AI time and my and the AI is at leat 1 s faster during the race. I think this is a bug.

I noticed, that I hit abosule fastest lap times in race. It is because I memorized completely the track at this point.

sisollazzo
18-03-2018, 17:19
This is a bug for sure the AI is not right balanced

johnnyone
18-03-2018, 18:30
I hope they dont give up and keep tuning AI.

Mahjik
18-03-2018, 18:39
The AI can be faster during the race, especially if they are bunched up (i.e. drafting). They will run faster together in a group than alone.

Keena
18-03-2018, 18:43
The AI can be faster during the race, especially if they are bunched up (i.e. drafting). They will run faster together in a group than alone.

Hmm, I'd love to see some real world timing sheets showing that. From practice to race- sure. But from qualifying to race you'll have to convince me..

Mahjik
18-03-2018, 20:57
Hmm, I'd love to see some real world timing sheets showing that. From practice to race- sure. But from qualifying to race you'll have to convince me..

I'm talking about our AI, not necessarily real world. In the real world they do a lot of tricks to the cars for qualifying that are not used during a race. We don't have that with our AI which can allow the AI to be faster during a race.

Keena
18-03-2018, 21:06
Ah ok. I’m rubbish in qualifying. Race day is my chance to shine ;)

yannara
19-03-2018, 06:54
They will run faster together in a group than alone.
I think that is not the real case. When you drive in a group, you are always slower, because you need to be carefull each one another and there is always someone infront of you breaking. Only the first driver of a group might be faster, because he is independend.

yannara
19-03-2018, 06:55
This is a bug for sure the AI is not right balanced

They did fix a lot in Patch #4.

yannara
19-03-2018, 06:57
Ah ok. I’m rubbish in qualifying. Race day is my chance to shine ;)

Previous games Iīve played, WTCC, GTRs etc, I could overtake quite easily. Now pCars2 is more realistic, overtaking is much more harder. Or might be because I finally found my balance and have pation.

Mahjik
19-03-2018, 13:28
I think that is not the real case. When you drive in a group, you are always slower, because you need to be carefull each one another and there is always someone infront of you breaking. Only the first driver of a group might be faster, because he is independend.

No true. Just watch NASCAR. ;) What can make a car slower is if it cannot take an optimal line. i.e. if running in a pack hampers the ability to follow the fast line around a track. They question is then can the a draft make up for not being on the optimal line. NASCAR seems to prove that is correct as you'll have cars going side by side with the outer car covering more ground but not losing anything to the inside car. The amount of speed the outer car is able to maintain is enough to cover the additional distance.

yannara
19-03-2018, 14:36
No true. Just watch NASCAR. ;) What can make a car slower is if it cannot take an optimal line. i.e. if running in a pack hampers the ability to follow the fast line around a track. They question is then can the a draft make up for not being on the optimal line. NASCAR seems to prove that is correct as you'll have cars going side by side with the outer car covering more ground but not losing anything to the inside car. The amount of speed the outer car is able to maintain is enough to cover the additional distance.
Nascar is different animal. In oval races, draft makes much more effect there, rather than a traditional track with different corners.

Mahjik
19-03-2018, 15:03
Nascar is different animal. In oval races, draft makes much more effect there, rather than a traditional track with different corners.

The track has nothing to do with the effectiveness of drafting, it's the cars. A car with a low frontal square area will produce less of a draft effect than a car with a higher frontal square area. It just depends if the track has any stretches of road where speeds are high that make a draft effective. Just about all GP level tracks have that. The smaller "National" or "Club" layouts may not.

g.stew
19-03-2018, 17:51
Feels like AI is getting faster in race than in qualify or practise.

I've felt like this before too but it's usually been down to something like conditions changed for the race and I didn't adjust my setup for it.

Do you have example lap times from races where the AI has done this? If you have some specific examples then we can all try it and see if we are getting the same behavior. You might have actually found a bug, but it's not going to get any attention without providing all the details so it can be reproduced.

ps. I did have a career race last night at COTA where one of the GTE cars had a race lap time about 8 seconds faster than any of the other GTE cars. I meant to go back and check the replay since I assumed he cut the track somewhere and ended up with that time.

yannara
19-03-2018, 19:03
Do you have example lap times from races where the AI has done this? If you have some specific examples then we can all try it and see if we are getting the same behavior. You might have actually found a bug, but it's not going to get any attention without providing all the details so it can be reproduced.


I will report it next time I witness this. What do you need?
1. Class
2. Track
3. Best time of AI in Practise, Qualify and Race?

Keena
19-03-2018, 19:14
I will report it next time I witness this. What do you need?
1. Class
2. Track
3. Best time of AI in Practise, Qualify and Race?

I’m restarting my career when I get back on wed. Will be starting in either the rookie or ginetta. I’ll start keeping a log of my times and best of AI for each session. Great idea guys. The more data the better.

yannara
20-03-2018, 10:58
Hey, could this be because I drive without rules? Iīm faster in practise and qualify because I am not punished for cutting corners. How does AI behave without rules? I bet they still drive clean...

Mahjik
20-03-2018, 12:32
Hey, could this be because I drive without rules? Iīm faster in practise and qualify because I am not punished for cutting corners. How does AI behave without rules? I bet they still drive clean...

Yes, the AI won't change anything with or without rules enabled.

yannara
20-03-2018, 14:49
Nope, it wasnīt it. I hit penalty back on, did qualify 1st. For me it seems, that penalty rules in Private Days are much more strict than in a qualify!

pferreirag60
20-03-2018, 15:18
Before the last big patch, some times the AI when qualifing, one of the sectors was not counted to the total lap time, usually it was just one AI car to have the lap time total with only 2 sectors.

I believe that bug was fixed.

yannara
20-03-2018, 17:33
I just had another 30min race and the problem was, that AI got away from me long time. Let me summarize you entire event. Because this is very typical scenario for me last months.

1. In Practise I am 1st.
2. In qualify I am 1st, difference to 2nd was around 0.00.500.
3. In Race, I loose my position to 3rd at the start. These 2 guys get away from me. At last laps, I loose one position more, so I am 4rd. I finish 4rh. My difference to the 1st driver is 20 seconds!

...how in hell this happend, if I were fastests in other events?

I got 6-7 L fuel left after race is finished. Setup suggested 13 laps, I added fuel for 17 laps. Perhaps the difference was 34 vs. 44. L. Car weight is less than 1300kg.

Also, entire set of cars were just right behind my ass all the race. Iīm quite good in racing lines, so there was no place to overtake me.

And this is very common scenario, what happends with me :(

Mahjik
20-03-2018, 17:42
Have you tracked specifically what lap times you are running in each session?

yannara
20-03-2018, 18:03
Have you tracked specifically what lap times you are running in each session?

No not yet, let me gather this info in next event. I assume screenshots from end result of every session is enough? So you are looking only for the best lap, right?

Mahjik
20-03-2018, 18:22
No not yet, let me gather this info in next event. I assume screenshots from end result of every session is enough? So you are looking only for the best lap, right?

Best or average would be helpful.. i.e. are you running relatively the same lap times in each session....

g.stew
20-03-2018, 18:31
No not yet, let me gather this info in next event. I assume screenshots from end result of every session is enough? So you are looking only for the best lap, right?


If you can, just provide all of the details. Then someone else can try it and see what happens for them.

Track:

Your car:

Rest of field:

AI level:

AI aggression:

Practice session
Date:
Time:
Weather:
Length:

Qualifying session
Date:
Time:
Weather:
Length:

Race session
Date:
Time:
Weather:
Length:

Race start type:

If not default, what race penalties are enabled?


Setup details are too much work but maybe just some basics:

Practice Session
Tyres:
Pressures:

Qualifying Session
Tyres:
Pressures:

Race Session
Tyres:
Pressures:

What is your tyre wear set to in options?


Not totally necessary, but if you can include the times for:

Best AI lap time in practice:
S1:
S2:
S3:

Best AI lap time in qualifiers:
S1:
S2:
S3:

Best AI lap time in race:
S1:
S2:
S3:


Please add anything else you think is important. We really should have a standard set of data like this. It's not hard to provide and anyone can quickly report back on what they see. It would make it much easier to get to the bottom of things.

yannara
21-03-2018, 14:08
..youīll need full time employee for testing :D

Voodoochild
22-03-2018, 12:48
check your laptime progression, maybe you're losing performances due to uncorrect tyres/brake ducts setup.

chase.husky
22-03-2018, 22:58
Before the last big patch, some times the AI when qualifing, one of the sectors was not counted to the total lap time, usually it was just one AI car to have the lap time total with only 2 sectors.

I believe that bug was fixed.

That glitch is still present in the latest version of the game (4.0.0.3). I've gone into three career mode races with the top time during qualifying before skipping until the end. I'll be at least a few seconds ahead of the remaining drivers before skipping. After skipping, one of the AI drivers will be 20+ seconds ahead of myself and every other AI racer. This occurs regardless of the AI difficulty setting.

g.stew
23-03-2018, 21:26
That glitch is still present in the latest version of the game (4.0.0.3). I've gone into three career mode races with the top time during qualifying before skipping until the end. I'll be at least a few seconds ahead of the remaining drivers before skipping. After skipping, one of the AI drivers will be 20+ seconds ahead of myself and every other AI racer. This occurs regardless of the AI difficulty setting.

Are you only seeing it in career? I've found if I set a fast time and then skip to the end, I'll keep my position, where if I'd stuck around, a couple of ai would have put in faster times. Have all of the ai put in times when you skip? Are you skipping after your first lap or do you set multiple times? Do you return to the pits before you skip to the end? I'll see if I can get it to reproduce.

I have seen a couple times where the AI finish their flying laps with faster times than you after qualifying ends but you keep your position for the race. For example, I do a flying lap of 1:01.500 after qualifying ends and place in 5th. An AI then does a 1:00.500 to bump me to 6th, then another AI does a 0:59.900 to bump me to 7th. When I continue to the race, I am starting in 5th. I haven't followed the AI to see if they end up with their previous lap times or not. I've been meaning to see if it's something I can reproduce consistently.

Where was your race with the AI 20 seconds ahead? I did have a career race at cota recently where one of the AI had a race lap 20 seconds faster than anyone else. I was thinking if they got bumped off track in sector 1 they might have cut across the boundaries and gained a lot of time. Since they don't get penalties, that would be the perfect place to gain a lot of time since it's not dirt or grass outside the boundaries.

Foofer37
25-03-2018, 04:18
I notice this as well. It seems to me to be related to the AI not reacting to cold tires. But for the 'simmer' cold tires play a huge role when entering a race. The reason I think is because in qualifying I've noticed that my car is not that affected by tire temperature. But when I enter a race, cold tires play a huge factor and I slide around a lot losing a lot of time, then as the race goes on you can feel the added grip and you start to catch up. Seems that it's something in the coding of the game that doesn't tell the AI that they have cold tires that is causing this. ALL of the cars should struggle a bit for grip during the first part of qualifying and the beginning of a race. But you can tell the AI are just not affected. They just take off.

LM24z
25-03-2018, 14:10
I’ve noticed there’s at least one AI in career usually about 1 sec a lap faster than me. Heaven forbid it rains, then its like 3 to 4 seconds no matter what I do. And they can mob through puddles like it’s nothing.

poirqc
25-03-2018, 15:17
I notice this as well. It seems to me to be related to the AI not reacting to cold tires. But for the 'simmer' cold tires play a huge role when entering a race. The reason I think is because in qualifying I've noticed that my car is not that affected by tire temperature. But when I enter a race, cold tires play a huge factor and I slide around a lot losing a lot of time, then as the race goes on you can feel the added grip and you start to catch up. Seems that it's something in the coding of the game that doesn't tell the AI that they have cold tires that is causing this. ALL of the cars should struggle a bit for grip during the first part of qualifying and the beginning of a race. But you can tell the AI are just not affected. They just take off.

Tires are cold in practice and qualifying, when you get out of the pits. On a race start, they're always warmed.

yannara
25-03-2018, 18:05
I started to pay attantion to lap times during different sessions, and I found out, that I am lot slower in races, probably because of a fuel. During the practise, best time of America road was 12.12.x.xxx. Mine was 12.13x.xxx. During qualify the same thing. During race, best time was 12.13x.xxx and mine best time was 12.2xx.xxx. I also had over 20l of fuel left after the race. So, it seems that fuel load really effects on the performance!

g.stew
25-03-2018, 23:49
I notice this as well. It seems to me to be related to the AI not reacting to cold tires. But for the 'simmer' cold tires play a huge role when entering a race. The reason I think is because in qualifying I've noticed that my car is not that affected by tire temperature. But when I enter a race, cold tires play a huge factor and I slide around a lot losing a lot of time, then as the race goes on you can feel the added grip and you start to catch up. Seems that it's something in the coding of the game that doesn't tell the AI that they have cold tires that is causing this. ALL of the cars should struggle a bit for grip during the first part of qualifying and the beginning of a race. But you can tell the AI are just not affected. They just take off.


Tires are cold in practice and qualifying, when you get out of the pits. On a race start, they're always warmed.

Yep. If you are slipping and sliding when the race starts then your pressures are probably not set right for fully warmed tires, so when you start the race the pressures are too high. Try running 6 laps in practice to get your tires fully warmed and then check the pressures. Compare to the pressures you have in the start of the race (or in time trial) and adjust to make sure you'll have the right pressures for warmed tires. Get used to always adjusting your pressures before a race depending on the conditions. If you edit the pressures and save the setup, you'll see the pre-warmed tire pressures in the top right corner.

Remember the race and qualifiers could also be at different times and have different track temps, so could require different tires.

Also, from what I understand, the AI are not affected by tire temps. They don't have to warm up tires.

g.stew
25-03-2018, 23:54
I started to pay attantion to lap times during different sessions, and I found out, that I am lot slower in races, probably because of a fuel. During the practise, best time of America road was 12.12.x.xxx. Mine was 12.13x.xxx. During qualify the same thing. During race, best time was 12.13x.xxx and mine best time was 12.2xx.xxx. I also had over 20l of fuel left after the race. So, it seems that fuel load really effects on the performance!

That makes sense. Have you tried starting a race with only 1 or 2 laps of fuel just to see how it compares?

yannara
26-03-2018, 15:53
That makes sense. Have you tried starting a race with only 1 or 2 laps of fuel just to see how it compares?

I ran 5 lap custom race and I could keep up with AI fine.

Keena
26-03-2018, 16:36
I ran 5 lap custom race and I could keep up with AI fine.

Not sure if the ai would also adjust their fuel for race distance here. Im going to run a test with a long (think full fuel) distance then try it both with a full tank and just a few laps worth. Im curious about the pace relationship to Ai through the sessions too. Im not back to my pc for a few days so im following a few threads today with interest ;)

yannara
26-03-2018, 16:51
Not sure if the ai would also adjust their fuel for race distance here. Im going to run a test with a long (think full fuel) distance then try it both with a full tank and just a few laps worth. Im curious about the pace relationship to Ai through the sessions too. Im not back to my pc for a few days so im following a few threads today with interest ;)

Some developer answered me, that yes AI adjust they fuel, they do not run with full tank.

APR193
26-03-2018, 17:14
If you do a quick test of retiring at the start of a race and going to monitor, you can see what each ai has in terms of tyre compound, fuel load etc as they continue to race. Some (very few) ai run with a full tank, and ai fuel levels can vary massively in the same car (which leads to amazing endurance races in my opinion)

yannara
27-03-2018, 13:23
If you do a quick test of retiring at the start of a race and going to monitor, you can see what each ai has in terms of tyre compound,
Holly shit, now I finally got it! AI drives with over 100l practise session 60min, and I drove with 20l... no wonder I am faster but not in the race! I need to rethink by AI adjust totally because of the fuel!

Keena
27-03-2018, 13:34
Time for another career restart and another difficulty tune for me I feel.. ;) Good feedback guys :) It sure would explain my good practice, bad qualifying good race pattern!

OddTimer
27-03-2018, 13:56
try reducing the AI agression. I've noticed that aggression also contributes towards the raw speed and as a result their lap times will be faster.

yannara
27-03-2018, 18:07
Nope, I ended up with 1L fiel left (gool calculating, hah), and I was still 2-3 sec slower than othres (best lap time).

I probably should not touch the fuel program, that it would calculate fuel for every session for me, right? And then adjust AI skill again?

yannara
28-03-2018, 17:38
In previous race I noticed from Monitoring, that AI started practise with 100 L. Now second track of championship, they started with 10-20L. What a heck????

yannara
01-04-2018, 13:51
I will end up with disabling fuel consuption, sense this issue seems to be buggy around Fuel topic.

CSL-Drive
02-04-2018, 09:12
I have compared the AI time and my and the AI is at leat 1 s faster during the race. I think this is a bug.

no its in most cases due to weather conditions that ai drive faster during the race, like eg, the track is warmer, are has more rubber, or less dust. especially in career the weather and track conditions are very scripted and changes quickly. You are expected to know how to addopt to these conditions as if you have already practised in them. the ai however, they are programmed to already know how to drive in each different weather scenario or circumstance. so you might say ai has an unfair advantage here, but not if you realize that you can do the same, if you give it more than one shot. it like, starting to rain during race, even tho you practised in dry. ai doesnt drive like they have not practised in rain, but we do, unless we practice in rain.

CSL-Drive
02-04-2018, 09:21
i have tested ai in many different weather/ track conditions and scenarios, and their lap times are highly sensitive to even the slightest of condition change. Which is a wonderful thing. It's marvelous. Everything matters, wind, temp, humidity, dust, clean, rubber, wet, dry, sun, cloud, time of day, season, etc, etc.

yannara
27-04-2018, 16:30
I might now know what is the cause of my problem. Tyre wear! I drove 30min race, started P2. First 10-15min I was fighting for P1, being all the time on P1's tail. Then I started loosing it, and my lap times drop (I followed delta time info). I lost my P2 position, and P2 ran off from me. Rest 10min I was fighting to keep my P3. I noticed, I indeed became slower last 10-15min. My tyre wear is set to autentic.

yannara
26-07-2018, 19:49
Hmm... I drove very succsessfull career at GT4 class, had no issues. Always kept my pace and lap times were similar. In GT3, the problem came back - at the start at the race Iīm good, but start loosing position. The fact is, that when someone passes me, I canīt get him back, he will run away. In GT3 and GT4 the AI difficulty is the same, 75% and no assits in both.

What are the real difference between Hard Slicks and Soft Slicks? Does the hard slick have long life time?

Cholton82
27-07-2018, 07:48
What are the real difference between Hard Slicks and Soft Slicks? Does the hard slick have long life time?

The Hards will last longer than softs , sometimes twice as long . The softs will have a quicker warm up but start losing grip when they start going past the operating window , I use them on track temps sub 25 degrees anything above I use Hards which take a little longer to heat but can be more stable.

yannara
27-07-2018, 08:19
Best or average would be helpful.. .
Where I can locate average lap time for each session?

Leper Messiah
27-07-2018, 10:16
I might now know what is the cause of my problem. Tyre wear! I drove 30min race, started P2. First 10-15min I was fighting for P1, being all the time on P1's tail. Then I started loosing it, and my lap times drop (I followed delta time info). I lost my P2 position, and P2 ran off from me. Rest 10min I was fighting to keep my P3. I noticed, I indeed became slower last 10-15min. My tyre wear is set to autentic.


Hmm... I drove very succsessfull career at GT4 class, had no issues. Always kept my pace and lap times were similar. In GT3, the problem came back - at the start at the race Iīm good, but start loosing position. The fact is, that when someone passes me, I canīt get him back, he will run away. In GT3 and GT4 the AI difficulty is the same, 75% and no assits in both.

What are the real difference between Hard Slicks and Soft Slicks? Does the hard slick have long life time?

The main thing I try to do regarding adjusting the Ai is my "race pace", what I can do consistently across a tyres life. If you adjust the ai based on your absolute fastest lap time then you 'll probably hit issues in the race due to tyre wear. It's hard to find the balance though.

Also regarding hards and softs, IMO it's less about tyre life and more about track temp dictates what tyres I use. I also use asymmetrical tyre choice sometimes (i.e. at RBR nat my front left get's a pounding and needs to be hard (hmm re reading that senstance makes it sound rude!)) but the right hand side often needs softs for the one left hander. I havn't tried tyre pressure tinkering too much yet as I have to read up on it.