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ScaredDuck
24-03-2018, 02:15
This is from a controller users perspective.

I did modify my setups from stable. But recently i realised. I get a better balance moding from a loose setup.

Reason i change both setups is stable has excessive understeer and loose has excessive oversteer and very little stability. I assume its more noticeable due to controllers limitations ie steering travel with sticks. And was thinking id personally like a default balanced set up as an option as then would require less setup inputs to get my desired setup be it. Under or oversteer

Mahjik
24-03-2018, 18:42
I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. Setups are really a personal preference. SMS provides two default setups to cater towards two main targets of drivers. The Race Engineer is added in there to help users make quick changes to suit their styles.

Beastie
24-03-2018, 19:16
Loose is generally faster.

Stable is usually easier not to crash.

I'd go for loose if you are setting better times without crashing all the time. An oversteery car turns more easily.

MaXyM
24-03-2018, 20:37
IMO the OP puts a question, do default loose/stable setups has something hidden which might affect car stability. I Undersood, OP has a feeling that 2 setups, the same regarding set values but created from different default ones (loose and stable) results with different car stability.

simsimsheree
24-03-2018, 21:19
I also wonder, are the loose and stable defaults based on actual playtesting per car, or is there some kind of generic adjustment to tune that is copy/pasted and not tested well?

I find the wild disparity between some cars' stability and ease of driving using the stock tunes hard to understand, if the tunes have actually been hand written and tested.

ScaredDuck
24-03-2018, 23:10
I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. Setups are really a personal preference. SMS provides two default setups to cater towards two main targets of drivers. The Race Engineer is added in there to help users make quick changes to suit their styles.

Sorry i was trying to be clever in the post title. What i was asking is. I find stable has excessive understeer and loose has excessive oversteer. And wondering if there should be a default balanced setup. Somewhere inbetween. As this would be a better base to modify your setups from

Mahjik
25-03-2018, 00:45
Sorry i was trying to be clever in the post title. What i was asking is. I find stable has excessive understeer and loose has excessive oversteer. And wondering if there should be a default balanced setup. Somewhere inbetween. As this would be a better base to modify your setups from

Could there be a 3rd setup? Absolutely. However, at some point SMS is going to draw the line between how much time it takes them to do setups for every car and how much energy they put into features like the Race Engineer which are supposed to augment that need. I doubt we'll see them add more setups for every car, at least with PC2, but there have been people who have suggested each car should have 4-6 setups (adding in rain and other setup changes).

ScaredDuck
25-03-2018, 00:56
Could there be a 3rd setup? Absolutely. However, at some point SMS is going to draw the line between how much time it takes them to do setups for every car and how much energy they put into features like the Race Engineer which are supposed to augment that need. I doubt we'll see them add more setups for every car, at least with PC2, but there have been people who have suggested each car should have 4-6 setups (adding in rain and other setup changes).

I find due to the vast amount off setup inputs you can make that effect under/oversteer and stability its hard to know which to change and by how much without hours off testing.

When it comes to the basics ie suspension, anti rollbars, cambers, brakes, tires and downforce._. Im well versed. But all the slip dif etc settings i have difficulties with.

DECATUR PLAYA
25-03-2018, 04:57
Sorry i was trying to be clever in the post title. What i was asking is. I find stable has excessive understeer and loose has excessive oversteer. And wondering if there should be a default balanced setup. Somewhere inbetween. As this would be a better base to modify your setups from

It doesn't matter which one you start with if you are a serious tuner the defaults are just starting places. The 2 tunes are really meant to show guys who dont tune how different 1 car can be with 2 different tunes and serves as kind of a introduction to tuning. Which is better is all driver preference.

Mahjik
25-03-2018, 18:24
I find due to the vast amount off setup inputs you can make that effect under/oversteer and stability its hard to know which to change and by how much without hours off testing.

When it comes to the basics ie suspension, anti rollbars, cambers, brakes, tires and downforce._. Im well versed. But all the slip dif etc settings i have difficulties with.

I get what you mean, but there is no way to every satisfy everyone with default setups. SMS could create 6 more, and someone will still say "Could you create one that is between setup #4 & #5?".

This is why the Race Engineer was added, to help people get started with setup changes without having to be an engineer themselves. Yes, the Race Engineer cannot do everything, but it gives most people a good start at making changes to their car based on "behavior" which is the first step to learning how to change the car... i.e. you first have to understand what you want changed, to know where to start changing things.

Keena
25-03-2018, 19:31
New to tuning users might find this useful
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=451307434

ScaredDuck
25-03-2018, 22:15
I get what you mean, but there is no way to every satisfy everyone with default setups. SMS could create 6 more, and someone will still say "Could you create one that is between setup #4 & #5?".

This is why the Race Engineer was added, to help people get started with setup changes without having to be an engineer themselves. Yes, the Race Engineer cannot do everything, but it gives most people a good start at making changes to their car based on "behavior" which is the first step to learning how to change the car... i.e. you first have to understand what you want changed, to know where to start changing things.


I dont disagree with you. The F1 games had 5 default options. Of which i only ever used 3 Which were a stable set up for wet races. Loose set ups for Monza etc. And balanced for everything else. Id set a fast lap in practice before fine tuning the setups. Which is no different to what i do in pcars. However. Stable for wet races, loose for fast circuits. But the majority off tracks require a more balanced setup. Which isnt a problem if youve got time to do alot of laps in practice. But i know i havnt and i have more free time than most.

And just want to point out. To get a fairly balanced setup starting from either stable or loose requires alot off changes in the setup menu. Also if i used a steering wheel. It wouldnt be so bad. . But as i use a controller which has restricted steering movement. I cant just pick one or other. As stable has to much understeer to be fast. And loose to unstable for ds4.

Really sorry if that makes no sense ive not had any sleep since friday.

And i know im making a big issue over something that will only gain a second or so a lap. And stable set up is a decent enough default setting for players off every experience. But the more experienced you get the less you need a stable option.

davekojo
26-03-2018, 00:47
For most cars the difference between loose and stable is the diff. I'll have to double check but maybe areo is a bit different as well.

If you start by "Merging" the diff values you should be on the right track. I start with "stable" to see where the car is. For off throttle/corner entry understeer increase diff coast, for on throttle/corner exit understeer reduce diff power (I think thats the one). Some cars like the M3 GT4 are just "broken" (I'm sure there is a way to get a good setup I just can't find it).

There is also the fact that each car drives differently. The GT3 911 is the best example as no other GT3 car behaves anywhere close to this car. You need a different driving style to drive the car before you can even start to look at the setup.

The sheer volume of cars means that each setup is a lot of work. I know the guys at SMS have put in a huge amount of work just to get the current setups so that for the most part they are very drivable and have consistent behavior.

I've played other sims where the default setups make no sense and the cars don't have a consistent behavior.

For the OP, are you using "every" car e.g playing career or random lobbies? or are there a handful of cars you use e.g. racing in a league, or the same servers?

Once I figure out a diff setting that "balances" the car corner behavior I normally create 3 setups for high, low and medium downforce with just areo changes. Because I try and drive most cars I find this approach lets me have a "competitive" car without need to spend too much time on my setups.

Also don't feel bad about asking questions like you have. The way you've discussed it has allowed for a constructive conversation that may be taken on board by SMS. But you might have to wait for Pcars3

ScaredDuck
26-03-2018, 01:23
Problem i find setting up from stable is it seems all the settings that increase understeer effect are set. And its having to find which ones in the diff settings especially to change. When Using DS4 controller you still require a fair amount off rear mechanical grip. So trying to balance out stability under braking and traction when accelerating out off a bend whilst keeping understeer to a minimum is a pain.

Whereas as loose setup using Ds4 is alittle easier as you can just keep increasing rear mech grip until oversteer and stability become manageable. Which is still abit off a flap

ScaredDuck
26-03-2018, 01:45
For most cars the difference between loose and stable is the diff. I'll have to double check but maybe areo is a bit different as well.

If you start by "Merging" the diff values you should be on the right track. I start with "stable" to see where the car is. For off throttle/corner entry understeer increase diff coast, for on throttle/corner exit understeer reduce diff power (I think thats the one). Some cars like the M3 GT4 are just "broken" (I'm sure there is a way to get a good setup I just can't find it).

There is also the fact that each car drives differently. The GT3 911 is the best example as no other GT3 car behaves anywhere close to this car. You need a different driving style to drive the car before you can even start to look at the setup.

The sheer volume of cars means that each setup is a lot of work. I know the guys at SMS have put in a huge amount of work just to get the current setups so that for the most part they are very drivable and have consistent behavior.

I've played other sims where the default setups make no sense and the cars don't have a consistent behavior.

For the OP, are you using "every" car e.g playing career or random lobbies? or are there a handful of cars you use e.g. racing in a league, or the same servers?

I only do career and test to death. Ive deleted and restarted career countless times always changing between car models.

I dont like changing ai settings during career. So still trying to find a doable ai balance. And im assuming there will be a ai patch soon. So for now Im just focusing on getting to grips with the handling balance. And when new patch comes ill restart from scratch again.

Gromran
26-03-2018, 13:36
The F1 games had 5 default options.Yeah, but only one car.

Shockwave Fox
26-03-2018, 15:43
Just out of interest as Iv been getting into trying to tune the cars to feel good "to me" but are the default loose and stable set ups that bad?

Iv been using the suspension tool on here and sometimes it feels amazing but sometimes nothing really changes.

Edit : I'm on a wheel sorry, not trying to derail the thread or anything though!

yannara
26-03-2018, 15:58
I really couldnīt drive this game before I found stable preset. I drive with no assists.

Keena
26-03-2018, 16:32
@ Shockwave Fox
Yeah im one of those people who prefers a car thats not going to stab me in the back halfway through a race, so while it may not be the pure pace setup option, it does net a lot of points. Then qualifying becomes a more unique option too. Its like the hatd/soft debate in marginal conditions- ill often go for the hard because i know then i can push a predictable car without cooking the tyres, but in qualy again its a different story.
The level of detail introduces some fascinating permutations.

xtro
26-03-2018, 18:31
Ah I'm glad to read that about the M3 GT4... I was pulling my hair yesterday trying to make this car work. I think it is achievable to make it work with some suspension and diff changes. The very first value under the suspensions tab needs to be increased a lot. But anyways this car demonstrates that some cars are just completely setup like crap by default... The Radical Road Car is the same horror. We need a setups database or SMS to come up with proper default tunes.

Mahjik
26-03-2018, 19:08
We need a setups database or SMS to come up with proper default tunes.

There are setup databases around. There is no such thing as a "proper default tune". Whatever you think is proper, someone else will complain about.

ScaredDuck
27-03-2018, 01:44
Just out of interest as Iv been getting into trying to tune the cars to feel good "to me" but are the default loose and stable set ups that bad?

Iv been using the suspension tool on here and sometimes it feels amazing but sometimes nothing really changes.

Edit : I'm on a wheel sorry, not trying to derail the thread or anything though!

There not bad at all. But as the previous post mentioned everyone is different. Whilst getting used to the general handling physics settings for controllers, wheels etc i used stable. But once i got accustomed to the gameplay. I dont need the excessive understeer in in the cars stable setup to keep me from go over the track. I highly recommend stable to all pc2 novices that usw a controller even if there were a default balance set up. But i find it impossible to keep a loose setup car on trackk for multiple laps using ds4.

hkraft300
27-03-2018, 02:41
But i find it impossible to keep a loose setup car on trackk for multiple laps using ds4.

Stick with stable and make it looser, or go loose and make it a touch more stable.

There are some things that have major impact in handling, and some that have minor depending on circumstances and what youíre trying to achieve.
Example: adjusting sway bars will have a minor impact in the balance but spring change will have a major impact. Dampers are a subtle change thatís noticeable on wheels (not so much on ds4), but it wonít help you if your problem is an aggro diff. Diagnose the problem: is it imbalanced pressures, or wings?

Most people donít have time for custom tunes. Iíll do a custom baseline then tweak for different tracks and situations as I go. Example: I have a smashing tune for Spa but a race at road America so Iíll pull my Spa tune and have a crack. 1st race Iíll make a few changes. Next time I race there Iíll make a few more changes... repeat until eventually I have a killer road America tune too.

Mahjik
27-03-2018, 03:41
Also, for those who want to learn a little bit about some of the setup options but concerned about it being a daunting task... Yorkie has some great videos:

https://www.youtube.com/user/Yorkie065/videos

belaki
27-03-2018, 14:23
I find due to the vast amount off setup inputs you can make that effect under/oversteer and stability its hard to know which to change and by how much without hours off testing.

When it comes to the basics ie suspension, anti rollbars, cambers, brakes, tires and downforce._. Im well versed. But all the slip dif etc settings i have difficulties with.

A good way to save time getting a quick setup is to take a few minutes and set all suspension parameters to 50% of their respective ranges. From there, fleshing out nuances is greatly facilitated. Once the 50% setup is done you can save it as a baseline setup for any new course you want to learn. My personal experience is this is a good way to rapidly eliminate off-throttle oversteer and arrive at a good, raceable, setup.

After that its tuning for speed and braking, and the race engineer function is enhanced...

hkraft300
27-03-2018, 14:27
A good way to save time getting a quick setup is to take a few minutes and set all suspension parameters to 50% of their respective ranges. ...

Wouldn’t recommend it, unless you’re using Jussi’s suspension calculator in conjunction.

More important is to isolate and diagnose the problem. This will greatly narrow your list of appropriate solutions and therefore save time.

belaki
27-03-2018, 14:41
Wouldn’t recommend it, unless you’re using Jussi’s suspension calculator in conjunction.

More important is to isolate and diagnose the problem. This will greatly narrow your list of appropriate solutions and therefore save time.

A solid test paradigm requires a known baseline. I have described a methodology that has proven successful for me.

hkraft300
27-03-2018, 15:41
A solid test paradigm requires a known baseline. I have described a methodology that has proven successful for me.

Tuning sliders are not scaled for effect.
Some cars springs 0-50-100% on the slider will give you understeer, understeer, more understeer.

I’m just saying: you can keep fishing in the dark randomly changing sliders or change specific sliders for what you want to achieve.

V8SC for example, no matter what you do with the springs, will still handle like a turd because spool diff.

McLaren 650s will understeer whatever you do with the springs.

simsimsheree
28-03-2018, 04:50
One thing essential about the Loose/Stable stock tunes.

We need the bug fixed (not sure if same across all platforms, but definitely present in PS4) where online rooms set to default tunes don't allow you the choice between Loose or Stable.

A lot of quick casual racing could be done in default setup rooms if the player had the choice of whatever SMS offer. Not everyone has the time or patience to spend hours fine tuning, and those that don't face the choice of a few default tune rooms with no guarantee that the stock tune they have got used to will be the one imposed, or joining tuned rooms and being destroyed by players that have days to spend fine tuning (or going online to copy others' tunes!).

This is yet another aspect where PC2 shoots its casual players in the back rather than prioritizing making them welcome.

Closer tunes to optimal as stock tunes would allow a lot more 'sit and go' racing, which is all the time many can afford. And fixing the bug where even the tunes that are provided cannot be chosen in untuned rooms (most games have one stock tune, which makes that moot, and also pressures stock tune creators into prioritizing the tune easiest driven by the majority of new players).

Please remember, before the usual cadre of posters rushes in to defend SMS, none of this changes in one iota the game at its higher levels. But even the pro player might appreciate the resources SMS could throw at faster bugfixing, or more DLC, more licensed tracks and cars, or a faster path to the NEXT Project Cars that making the game easier for the casual player (and the consequential increase in revenue that would provide) would bring.

Surely? :greedy_dollars:

hkraft300
29-03-2018, 06:23
If you're fast, with a default setup you'll beat most guys with a killer tune.
If you're slow, doesn't matter how good your setup is, you'll get beat. I regularly get my arse kicked by guys who don't tune (maybe a brake bias shift is about all), and I tweak a lot.

If you're a "casual" fps player, you'll get beat by experienced, high XP fps players. If you're a "casual" footballer you'll get beat by a pro.
Is your suggestion really a silver bullet to bring more "casual" players to the fray? Forced default lobbies themselves are also rare on ps4 public MP. So how big a difference will it make?
And if multiple "default" setups are provided, how do you maintain parity where currently a default lobby ensures parity in the car's ability?
Personally I'm glad "casual" racers have shifted to GT:S.

flatspunout
29-03-2018, 06:52
Personally I'm glad "casual" racers have shifted to GT:S.

Cause, you know, those casuals' aren't important to sales...might want to be careful what you wish for. GTS is outselling PC2 10 to 1 because of those pesky casuals.

Wow, just wow.

hkraft300
29-03-2018, 07:10
Is that a surprise for you?
SIM racers are a minute percentage of gamers.
SIM racing is a niche market.
I won't deny a bit of polish on project car's MP wouldn't retain some players, but it's not going to help keep those who don't want depth in a racing game.

belaki
29-03-2018, 16:15
Tuning sliders are not scaled for effect.
Some cars springs 0-50-100% on the slider will give you understeer, understeer, more understeer.

Iím just saying: you can keep fishing in the dark randomly changing sliders or change specific sliders for what you want to achieve.

V8SC for example, no matter what you do with the springs, will still handle like a turd because spool diff.

McLaren 650s will understeer whatever you do with the springs.

The very purpose of the approach I describe eliminates "fishing in the dark," by definition, by starting from a physically consistent baseline to achieve a balance.

As for "sliders" you seem to have forgotten SMS did away with sliders in PC2, so setting springs and dampers at 50% of their ranges actually requires a bit of math.

Of course, if one isn't capable of identifying what part of the car is over\under steering, and when, then any approach to tuning is doomed to failure. Likewise, the driver\tuner needs to cultivate a sense of when to stop focusing on tuning improvements and start focusing on driving improvements - as in the case of the spooled diffs you referred to. No matter what, at the edge of the envelope one will face the stark realization that additional tuning work will not overcome the simple fact that "I'm gonna have to out drive this guy if I want to beat him."

ScaredDuck
30-03-2018, 02:29
Also, for those who want to learn a little bit about some of the setup options but concerned about it being a daunting task... Yorkie has some great videos:

https://www.youtube.com/user/Yorkie065/videos

Although these videos are hugely helpful. Sometimes when it comes to the tech stuff Yorkie is not so clear and his tone sounds as though he is not 100% himself. Which isnt a criticism off him. He understands and explains better than most.

But videos on the techy tech stuff would be more helpful if SMS employed a real race engineer. As even the likes off Alonso and Hamilton defer to. Just look at the uproar caused by F1 drivers when the rule was brought in to restrict information during races given by engineers to drivers

hkraft300
30-03-2018, 05:34
A quick read of Casey's physics of threads show how complex the cars in this game are.
You can go down that tuning rabbit hole or stick to the basics.
It becomes a matter of diminishing returns.
If the driver doesn't have the capability to extract the performance, it's fruitless.

Mahjik
30-03-2018, 14:36
Although these videos are hugely helpful. Sometimes when it comes to the tech stuff Yorkie is not so clear and his tone sounds as though he is not 100% himself. Which isnt a criticism off him. He understands and explains better than most.

But videos on the techy tech stuff would be more helpful if SMS employed a real race engineer. As even the likes off Alonso and Hamilton defer to. Just look at the uproar caused by F1 drivers when the rule was brought in to restrict information during races given by engineers to drivers

I will say you have me confused. You mentioned that you didn't have time to dive into the details, yet you are suggesting the videos should be more detailed.

There is someone that does that already:

https://www.youtube.com/user/EngineeringExplained/videos

However, try going through some of his videos and let me know if you find them more or less helpful than Yorkie's. I think you'll find Yorkie's much more helpful unless you are an engineering student. ;)

Ofnir4
31-03-2018, 11:33
EE is a great channel but you do need a good understanding of the subject, otherwise you end up watching five or six other videos to understand one of his.

But Yorkie's work is way more focused on the game, meaning anything you get out of it is much more applicable. EE is more for the engineers or generally curious people that like in depth stuff.

The one thing not working in Yorkie's favor is the visual stagnation (99% is on the setup page) of the video and the monotonous speech pattern. (and the plethora of "obviously, basically")

But since it's not part of his job to do these video, I won't ask him to pit up to six hours into editing a video that is visually pleasing (like having the setup screen for a particular setting, then two runs side by side of the same car with the two different settings) and be thankful that these videos even exist.

simsimsheree
02-04-2018, 18:56
Diminishing sales means diminishing development. Diminishing sales means diminished pace of bugfixing. Diminishing sales means diminishing pace of car and track modeling.

But please keep telling those that have the idiotic idea that attracting lots more players to the game would be good for it that you are glad they want to leave. Then, in a few years when SMS fold, please come to the GT forums and complain about the arcade handling. Where you will likely get the same welcome.

How clueless do you have to be to think that adding elements that make the game easier to play at beginner levels would change the game one iota at higher levels? We are beginning to see...

SMS have the game perfect for the 1% of hardcore players. But need little more to make it playable for the other 99%. GT has the game perfect for the 99%. But will probably never be able to improve the game enough to satisfy the 1%.

Guess how much better PCARS could be with 100 times as much money pumped into it? With this attitude, I guarantee you will never find out.

Mahjik
02-04-2018, 19:08
But please keep telling those that have the idiotic idea that attracting lots more players to the game would be good for it that you are glad they want to leave. Then, in a few years when SMS fold, please come to the GT forums and complain about the arcade handling. Where you will likely get the same welcome.

How clueless do you have to be to think that adding elements that make the game easier to play at beginner levels would change the game one iota at higher levels? We are beginning to see...


Bring it down a notch. You are about to take it a step too far...

simsimsheree
02-04-2018, 20:20
No problem. Apologies.

Any chance of moderating the 'Good riddance' posts as well?

I am up for an actual discussion about the issues, but moderation should tame both sides of the polemic, shouldn't it?

Mahjik
02-04-2018, 20:49
Any chance of moderating the 'Good riddance' posts as well?

I am up for an actual discussion about the issues, but moderation should tame both sides of the polemic, shouldn't it?

If you have concerns about certain posts, use the "Report Post" function at the bottom of the post.

senna94f1
03-04-2018, 01:29
This is from a controller users perspective.

I did modify my setups from stable. But recently i realised. I get a better balance moding from a loose setup.

Reason i change both setups is stable has excessive understeer and loose has excessive oversteer and very little stability. I assume its more noticeable due to controllers limitations ie steering travel with sticks. And was thinking id personally like a default balanced set up as an option as then would require less setup inputs to get my desired setup be it. Under or oversteer

Just my opinion ,

(Loose ) tends to be softer on suspension and everything else , I tend not to like this only because it doesn't suit my driving style ,

(Stable ) tends to be more stiffer on suspension . and you notice in set up menu everything is tweaked more aggressive , this suits my driving style as you can point the car into the corners, but with this setup it can snap easier ,

I use to think there wasn't too much difference between the 2 , it was only when screen shotted both setups that there's a big difference between loose and stable , hope this helps

I run standand ps4 with corbeau race seat and frame with thrustmaster gte 300 wheel ,50in tv ,

Wheel makes a huge difference and if you don't have lot of money ,it's worth investing in a budget thrustmaster t150 , these are brand new around £100 , Pcars 2 begs to be played using a ffb wheel ,

Jezza819
03-04-2018, 17:30
I've only tried stable on a couple of cars that I was having tons of trouble with trying the loose setup. Formula C and Formula Renault. Both cars seemed to wallow more than the loose setups. Almost like the steering ratio went slower by 50%. I drove the Formula Renault at Silverstone GP and through Maggotts & Becketts the AI would catch right up to me because I couldn't slice through there. I haven't done a back to back test at the same track with either car to see which setup is slower but at least stable kept the car pointing forwards.

Fight-Test
03-04-2018, 18:53
There are setup databases around. There is no such thing as a "proper default tune". Whatever you think is proper, someone else will complain about.

https://www.racingsimtools.com/

Tuning database

hkraft300
04-04-2018, 00:36
I've only tried stable on a couple of cars that I was having tons of trouble with trying the loose setup. Formula C and Formula Renault. Both cars seemed to wallow more than the loose setups. Almost like the steering ratio went slower by 50%. I drove the Formula Renault at Silverstone GP and through Maggotts & Becketts the AI would catch right up to me because I couldn't slice through there. I haven't done a back to back test at the same track with either car to see which setup is slower but at least stable kept the car pointing forwards.

Ride height makes a massive difference in balance on the Renault.
Get that under control and you too shall slice and dice maggots.

Jezza819
04-04-2018, 02:39
Ride height makes a massive difference in balance on the Renault.
Get that under control and you too shall slice and dice maggots.

Up or down? Down I'm assuming?

Keena
04-04-2018, 10:00
Up or down? Down I'm assuming?

By lowering ether the front or rear of the car you are moving the centre of gravity either fwds or rearwards. This will help dial out under or oversteer. An overall reduction in ride height will only be beneficial to cars with wide floor surface area. As tge airflow moves beneath the car it will speed up causing a reduction in pressure, thereby pulling the car down. Bernoullis theorum- in the streamline flow of an ideal fluid, the sum of all energies remains constant.
Just beware that your aero setting will also have an impact as well because of the above.
Hope that helps
You can simulate bernoullis theorum with a spoon held under a flowing tap. As the water flows over the spoon it adheres and accelerates, pressure reduces, the spoon is pulled outward. It is the outer surface of the spoon the provides the lift, not the inner surface. This is why the upper surface of plane wings are curved.
Angle of attack relative to the airflow is critical- exceed the AofA and the aerofoil stalls. This can occur at any airspeed. At this point the streamline flow of the fluid over the wing is lost, and the reduction of lift occurs. Turbulent airflow can achieve the same affect- following a car in front for example.
Add to this the Venturi effect and you can begin to understand its a little more complex than just "up or down" when we are thinking about rake on the car.

hkraft300
04-04-2018, 15:48
Up or down? Down I'm assuming?

Formula Renault (also the Indy car, both are Dallara chassis’) likes to sit low. The lower you get, the more downforce you get.
You want the front low and stiff, without bottoming out. It will give you great front grip. Now the rear you can have a play with: raise the rear and the diffuser becomes less effective, moving the centre of pressure forward and giving you less understeer.

What you can do for a track like silverstone gp is set soft rear springs. When you’re going slow the rear will rise and give you less downforce at the back, giving you less understeer. At speed, the rear wing pushes the rear down to give you more more downforce from the diffuser, less oversteer and more stability. It’s how the Indy car was set up on default in pc1.