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bainstyles
29-03-2018, 02:20
Can anybody explain why my car behaves completely different during a race vs when in private testing session ???

I triple checked that EVERYTHING from track temp/ambient temp/ tire pressure is the same as in testing session.

And no I'm not driving any different or faster in the race compared to testing session. This is extremely frustrating as the car is almost undrivable during the race.

Justin Case
29-03-2018, 09:29
I've noticed the very same thing. Seems like they r trying to make the races harder that way or something. I had to quit 2 race, because my car was simply undriveable. 1-2 laps it was almost ok and then it was like driving a bar of soap on a wet ice.

chickano
29-03-2018, 09:46
Alot of people in the league racing are saying this as well. We practice during the week and come race night in the league the car is totally different. On Xbo and PS4, accrooss 8 leagues with full tiers and many say the same

Sankyo
29-03-2018, 10:21
Make sure that the proper set-up (even when using default) is (manually) loaded before starting a session and see if that helps. Are you all on consoles (i.e. Justin Case is your platform set correctly in your profile)?

hkraft300
29-03-2018, 10:29
I've had this happened to me the few times I hadn't reloaded the setup I want during the pre-race ready menu.
Always load setup in that 2 minute window before the race and you'll be sweet.
Spread the word!

chickano
29-03-2018, 11:10
yep on ps4, and yes always load the correct set up between qualy and race in the 2 minute window you get to check fuel etc

Blaulicht
29-03-2018, 11:30
Does the game simulate dirty air? I've driven the R8 countless laps around LeMans and seem to have a lot less grip when driving near someone else. The weird thing is, that it also applies when driving IN FRONT of other cars. Even my vmax seems to increase from ~327km/h to almost 340 when driving next to or right in front of somebody which doesn't nake too much sense to me

hkraft300
29-03-2018, 11:32
Does the game simulate dirty air?

Yup.

Bump drafting too.

Zaskarspants
29-03-2018, 11:38
Does the game simulate dirty air? I've driven the R8 countless laps around LeMans and seem to have a lot less grip when driving near someone else. The weird thing is, that it also applies when driving IN FRONT of other cars. Even my vmax seems to increase from ~327km/h to almost 340 when driving next to or right in front of somebody which doesn't nake too much sense to me

That is expected.

The car in front gains from slipstreaming along with the rear car.

" On the faster speedways and superspeedways used by NASCAR, and ARCA two or more vehicles can race faster when lined up front-to-rear than a single car can race alone. The low-pressure wake behind a group's leading car reduces the aerodynamic resistance on the front of the trailing car allowing the second car to pull closer. As the second car nears the first it pushes high-pressure air forward so less fast-moving air hits the lead car's spoiler. The result is less drag for both cars, allowing faster speeds."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drafting_%28aerodynamics%29#Stock_car_racing

edit - this does seem confusing but it is easy to understand if you imagine the two cars welded together. They will behave like one long car with two engines and clearly achieve higher top speed.

AbeWoz
29-03-2018, 12:20
Can anybody explain why my car behaves completely different during a race vs when in private testing session ???

I triple checked that EVERYTHING from track temp/ambient temp/ tire pressure is the same as in testing session.

And no I'm not driving any different or faster in the race compared to testing session. This is extremely frustrating as the car is almost undrivable during the race.

how many AI are you running against? There is an entire thread about this issue. Seems to be an XB1 processor power issue.

ShneebnaMRR108
29-03-2018, 13:27
Can anybody explain why my car behaves completely different during a race vs when in private testing session ???

I triple checked that EVERYTHING from track temp/ambient temp/ tire pressure is the same as in testing session.

And no I'm not driving any different or faster in the race compared to testing session. This is extremely frustrating as the car is almost undrivable during the race.

Depending on which car and which track, and how many AI you select, or individual racers are in, the XBOne will reach a limit to the amount of data that it can process effectively.

There are threads currently going on about cars and tracks and how they perform with a certain number of AI, and what does and doesn't work effectively at this point.

You will have to come to some conclusion about the car and track combo you are using, and how many AI or racers can work, then tune your set up for that combo and conditions in race.

Bultaco85
29-03-2018, 13:47
Iīm on Xbox one X, most powerful console there is, and it still happens. Clearly no a power issue.

Sankyo
29-03-2018, 14:20
Iīm on Xbox one X, most powerful console there is, and it still happens. Clearly no a power issue.

Not sure about that, how many AI are you running?

ShneebnaMRR108
29-03-2018, 14:46
Iīm on Xbox one X, most powerful console there is, and it still happens. Clearly no a power issue.

XBOX 1X is same CPU, but clocked faster. Similar, but to a lesser degree CPU capability issues to XBOX One.

Clearly a game requirement to console power capability issue.

bainstyles
29-03-2018, 16:00
Yes I am on Xbox 1.

Yes I have preloaded my setup before the race. Then I even tweaked setup after the race, restarted then raced again and still the same. Undriveable. Car is sliding and oversteering like crazy which again NEVER did that in practice

Thanks everyone for responses. Guess its time to get out of consoles and onto PC !

Bultaco85
29-03-2018, 16:09
Itīs not the same CPU, itīs a 4 times more powerful custom cpu on top of being clock faster. Youīre really not much into it, arenīt you?

It could never be an issue of CPU in ONE X when a PS4 runs it ok with 4x less power.

Bultaco85
29-03-2018, 16:12
20 on Barcelona.

Iīve tried to reload the setup before race as per your recomendation and it helped. The physics donīt change per se but i get a lot more understeer and braking issues. Maybe due to dirty air?
AI always has more braking power, but itīs ok, can manage it.

Bultaco85
29-03-2018, 16:17
I think that the issue here is that theses changes make more difficult to set up a propper race, because even without it we have to adapt to AI/Track combo, thus we can take a lot of time.
I understand this is the price to pay for having a fully dynamic sim that gives it a lot of depth, while in games like Assetto Corsa by comparison you just have to work on one scenario.

ShneebnaMRR108
29-03-2018, 16:55
Whatever console, whatever CPU, MPU, whatever, whatever, the fact remains that a lot of users experience this issue, are frustrated, and can only wait until the next patch maybe improves it further.

awaite85
29-03-2018, 17:03
Yes always re load your setups when entering a room.

g.stew
29-03-2018, 18:38
20 on Barcelona.

Iīve tried to reload the setup before race as per your recomendation and it helped. The physics donīt change per se but i get a lot more understeer and braking issues. Maybe due to dirty air?
AI always has more braking power, but itīs ok, can manage it.

Try start your race in last place, wait for the AI to get halfway on their lap and then start driving normally. You should have no influence of dirty air from the AI at that point. If the same thing is still happening then try the same conditions and same headstart with less AI and more AI.

chickano
29-03-2018, 21:37
ok that's interesting to read the other posts as I and anothe couple people had begun to think that it was becaue when we practice there are 1 - 5 people in a lobby and when we race there are 16. So it makes sense. I consider it a distinct possibility at this stage :)

The caveat is that we have some people report issues for example at RA, in practice can ride the kerbs but not in race. Possibly fuel ride height issue or set up / game issue as obviously not dirty air related.

Cheers all.

hkraft300
29-03-2018, 23:28
Yes always re load your setups when entering a room.

And before going to the grid for race start.

CoproManiac
30-03-2018, 15:46
I experience the same thing. There's something off with this game, not trying to bash or anything.
I can spend hours in practice to make a good setup, as soon as it's raceday the car behaves strange. Certainly it does not feel like the car I've made the setup for, sometimes the car is even undriveable and I've had to quit from a couple of races because it didn't feel safe and I was afraid of ruining somebody else's race.

I dunno if the effects are overdone, or maybe there's something with LiveTrack 3.0, all I know is there's something off. Even laptimes are off, in practice I'm 1-2 seconds faster per lap than I am during the actual race.

I don't even know how to practice anymore, it seems almost futile to even practice (apart from better understanding the track i.e. driving lines, brake point, turn points).
Start Practice Session, create setup. Then start offline mode vs AI, car behaves completely different. Create online session vs AI, car behaves differently again. Then it's raceday, car behaves differently again.
Sometime the car feels good, most of the times the car feels off.
What's the point of practicing when the car will feel different almost every single session?

I'm certainly not the only one who's noticing this. Even in the league I'm racing in people complain how their car feels totally different to the point of it being undriveable.

Now you might ask why there's not more of these kind of posts. I think I can answer that; because most people don't drive in a league.
I have never noticed this strange behavior until I joined a league. Before that, I just joined random online lobbies and created a setup in the qualifying session, or I simply adjusted a couple of things when there's not too much time left.
I never used Practice Session to create a setup before that, and now that I do, I definitely notice the strange behavior.

It's got nothing to do with loading a setup before the race, as I always do that.

Some people seem to not notice a difference, whilst others do. I don't know if it might be a hardware issue, or that it has something to do with LiveTrack 3.0. But there's definitely something going on which I can't simply point out the cause of.
A couple of patches ago, there were problems with LiveTrack 3.0 in which some people were driving on a different surface (some people were driving on a wet track, whilst others were driving on a dry track). Maybe there's more issues with LiveTrack 3.0 like these that are harder to point out.

Other than these problems, the mass disconnects are ruining the game. It's like 2 or 3 out of every 5 games, disconnects happen. Sometimes the lobby is split into 2, or even 3. Sometimes you just get disconnected from the game and get put back in the main menu.
I don't think this game is actually eSports ready, to me personally it feels like I'm playing a beta version.

Again, I'm not trying to bash, I'm just pointing out some of the issues I've been having with this game and I hope these things will get fixed in upcoming patches.

AbeWoz
30-03-2018, 15:57
keep in mind everyone that the track conditions (rubbering in) are not the same in private testing as they are in a race. IIRC private testing starts with a 'green' track whereas a race has the effect of being rubbered in from practice and quali sessions.

also, private testing, practice, and quali start on cold tires. Races start with warm tires to simulate a warm-up/formation lap. I know most people are aware of this, but just want to bring it up for those who don't.

Issues on console (xbox at least) seem to be mostly attributed to running more than a certain AI and it puts excess stress on the CPU causing the physics processes to be slowed down.


Also, it's natural for lap times to be slower in races than in qualifying because you have more fuel, and can't run the same lines you do in qualifying because of cars around you and what not.

CoproManiac
30-03-2018, 16:06
keep in mind everyone that the track conditions (rubbering in) are not the same in private testing as they are in a race. IIRC private testing starts with a 'green' track whereas a race has the effect of being rubbered in from practice and quali sessions.

Maybe then herein lies the issue.


Also, it's natural for lap times to be slower in races than in qualifying because you have more fuel, and can't run the same lines you do in qualifying because of cars around you and what not.

Yeah, I'm aware of that fact. I was referring to the difference in laptimes between Private Session and Race. In Private Session with a full tank I'm 1-2 seconds per lap faster than in a race session with a full tank of fuel, with the exact same setup.

AbeWoz
30-03-2018, 16:10
Yeah, I'm aware of that fact. I was referring to the difference in laptimes between Private Session and Race. In Private Session with a full tank I'm 1-2 seconds per lap faster than in a race session with a full tank of fuel, with the exact same setup.

could be you are running slightly different lines. I assume you have weather set the exact same in testing and race to eliminate that as a potential cause as well?

CoproManiac
30-03-2018, 16:18
could be you are running slightly different lines. I assume you have weather set the exact same in testing and race to eliminate that as a potential cause as well?

Everything is the exact same. I'm pretty consistent, 2 seconds difference in laptimes in 1 particular session is quite uncommon and mostly only happens if I accidentally mess up a corner. Certainly not something that happens consistently.

I'm just curious, but do you use Private Session to create setups and then race them online, for example in a league? If you do, don't you feel any difference whatsoever, ever?

AbeWoz
30-03-2018, 16:21
no, i use 'custom event' with AI turned off to get a baseline

CoproManiac
30-03-2018, 16:29
no, i use 'custom event' with AI turned off to get a baseline

I've tried that too, some people recommended creating a private online session, but whatever I try, car feels different on raceday.
I dunno what to do to, I'm just at the point it feels less of a joy to play the game. There's definitely something going on and others notice it too.

I wish I could pinpoint the cause of it, but I can't.

Another curiosity, but why do you create a baseline in custom event?

AbeWoz
30-03-2018, 17:20
I've tried that too, some people recommended creating a private online session, but whatever I try, car feels different on raceday.
I dunno what to do to, I'm just at the point it feels less of a joy to play the game. There's definitely something going on and others notice it too.

I wish I could pinpoint the cause of it, but I can't.

Another curiosity, but why do you create a baseline in custom event?

so the track is semi-rubbered in so it will feel more consistent over a race 'weekend' when i play online. same reason some people use Time Trial to create their setups.

CoproManiac
30-03-2018, 17:34
Wait, you create a race session in a custom event? I mean, you skip practice + qualifying and you start in a race without AI? And everytime you want to adjust something to the car, you restart the race again?
If so, I'll try this out for the upcoming league race.

AbeWoz
30-03-2018, 17:53
Wait, you create a race session in a custom event? I mean, you skip practice + qualifying and you start in a race without AI? And everytime you want to adjust something to the car, you restart the race again?
If so, I'll try this out for the upcoming league race.

I just use the practice or qualifying session in the custom event.

CoproManiac
30-03-2018, 18:26
So, the track is semi-rubbered-in in a custom session, whereas in a private session it is not?

I've tried creating a setup in a custom practice session. Still, when it's raceday the car feels off.

You said you use this type of session to create a baseline, correct? Have you ever created a setup for a track/date/weather specific race?
Like, you can create a baseline setup for a specific track, but when you have to race in different weather/temperature conditions you have to change certain options in your setup accordingly.
Or do you create a baseline without having knowledge of the race settings regarding weather/date/temperatures and adjust the settings while in the practice/qualifying session of the online lobby?

I ask this because I do know the upcoming race settings and I create my setups specifically for those settings, yet the car feels different a lot of times and sometimes even horrible when it's raceday.
If you don't create setups for specific session settings, then that might explain why I do notice the huge difference and you maybe don't.

I've thought about just taking the Loose setup that SMS has provided us with and just change a few settings during the qualifying session on raceday as it feels like a gamble every time I create an actual setup. I just don't know with what I will end up when it comes to how the car will feel during the race.

Sorry for asking so many questions, I just want to enjoy the game and have a reasonably consistent feel in setup between different sessions. I don't know a lot about the mechanics behind the game, I play mostly by how it feels to me.

Schnizz58
30-03-2018, 18:33
There's definitely a difference when there are cars on the track vs. a solo practice run. I started a thread about it months ago. At the time I speculated maybe that private testing came with a "pre-rubbered" track. But that doesn't explain it. I have much less grip in a career race (when the track should be well-rubbered) than I do in a private test run on the same track with the same car under the same weather conditions.

AbeWoz
30-03-2018, 19:01
So, the track is semi-rubbered-in in a custom session, whereas in a private session it is not?

I've tried creating a setup in a custom practice session. Still, when it's raceday the car feels off.

You said you use this type of session to create a baseline, correct? Have you ever created a setup for a track/date/weather specific race?
Like, you can create a baseline setup for a specific track, but when you have to race in different weather/temperature conditions you have to change certain options in your setup accordingly.
Or do you create a baseline without having knowledge of the race settings regarding weather/date/temperatures and adjust the settings while in the practice/qualifying session of the online lobby?

I ask this because I do know the upcoming race settings and I create my setups specifically for those settings, yet the car feels different a lot of times and sometimes even horrible when it's raceday.
If you don't create setups for specific session settings, then that might explain why I do notice the huge difference and you maybe don't.

I've thought about just taking the Loose setup that SMS has provided us with and just change a few settings during the qualifying session on raceday as it feels like a gamble every time I create an actual setup. I just don't know with what I will end up when it comes to how the car will feel during the race.

Sorry for asking so many questions, I just want to enjoy the game and have a reasonably consistent feel in setup between different sessions. I don't know a lot about the mechanics behind the game, I play mostly by how it feels to me.

i usually just make a generic baseline that I can use whenever/wherever i race the car. If i know the weather conditions beforehand, I'll practice in those conditions and tailor my baseline setup to suit (brakes, radiators, tire pressures generally).

Bultaco85
31-03-2018, 10:42
Just so you know, iīve managed to understand the issue, just made small changes in set up. On Xbox One X, things donīt change that much, i really now think itīs all due to dirty air from other cars and rubbered track, that make me get more understeer than in Free Practice.

hkraft300
31-03-2018, 11:47
... dirty air from other cars and rubbered track, that make me get more understeer ....

= Car behaving completely different?
:rolleyes:

Bultaco85
31-03-2018, 12:14
On the normal XONE unfortunatelly it happens. On the X not so much.

rich1e I
31-03-2018, 12:23
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but a rubbered track gives you more grip, not the opposite, so why should a rubbered track be the cause for a drop in lap times?

Bultaco85
31-03-2018, 13:15
Because it also may give you understeer if you donīt correct tire pressures accordingly. And with other cars infront and dirty air...

rich1e I
31-03-2018, 14:21
Because it also may give you understeer if you donīt correct tire pressures accordingly. And with other cars infront and dirty air...

Tyre pressures should be the same regardless if the track is rubbered in or not.

hkraft300
01-04-2018, 00:05
Tyre pressures should be the same regardless if the track is rubbered in or not.

If you’re driving slightly off the Racing line, maybe you get inconsistent grip slowing you?
I don’t know, but the drafting/slipstream/dirty air effect is definitely a big factor.

rich1e I
01-04-2018, 12:59
If you’re driving slightly off the Racing line, maybe you get inconsistent grip slowing you?
I don’t know, but the drafting/slipstream/dirty air effect is definitely a big factor.

Well, not taking the racing line is always slower regardless of grip levels. This issue is a strange one. People definitely need to try reproducing it. I myself think it could be related to a Livetrack 3.0 issue. I've also noticed that hard tyres behave differently after the latest patch. It could all be an issue with the track surface.

KrypticTMG
01-04-2018, 13:03
This is something i feel extremely strongly about and whenever racing in AOR GT3 Elite most races i'm normally over 1 second off my own pace from practice to race at 1st i thought it was me but clearly it is something that effects almost everybody specially if you league race.

I think live track 3.0 is almost working in reverse because when you are on the track alone or with 1 or 2 people the grip levels feel fine but as soon as you go into a full lobby the car seems to skate across the surface and almost turn from the rear on the entry to corners its as if the more cars you have on track the less grip it gives you when it should be the other way around and i have to say its really starting to put me off league racing at the moment and to be honest i feel the the actual racing on pcars1 was so much better. When you spend a hours practicing and figuring out a good setup only to get to the race and the car feel totally useless its very frustrating. Sometimes 20mins before race i'll be practicing and when the race starts i'll be 1.3 - 2.0 seconds off of what i was doing 20mins earlier with the same setup and same track conditions.

The only time i enjoy live track 3.0 is when its raining other than that it seems to be more problematic than anything else. I actually wish there was a setting to just turn it off because for me it kind of spoils the league racing a bit and its starting to change the way i feel about the game, its almost become impossible to properly prepare for races because im not sure what kind of car i will get once the race starts for example my last AOR race i was running low 2:08's with 105litres in practice literally 15mins earlier and then once the race started i was doing high 2:09s low 2:10s same conditions same setup and in my head im like there is nothing i can do about this because the grip levels are just terrible but it seems to effect some more than others its just weird.

rich1e I
01-04-2018, 13:41
This is something i feel extremely strongly about and whenever racing in AOR GT3 Elite most races i'm normally over 1 second off my own pace from practice to race at 1st i thought it was me but clearly it is something that effects almost everybody specially if you league race.

I think live track 3.0 is almost working in reverse because when you are on the track alone or with 1 or 2 people the grip levels feel fine but as soon as you go into a full lobby the car seems to skate across the surface and almost turn from the rear on the entry to corners its as if the more cars you have on track the less grip it gives you when it should be the other way around and i have to say its really starting to put me off league racing at the moment and to be honest i feel the the actual racing on pcars1 was so much better. When you spend a hours practicing and figuring out a good setup only to get to the race and the car feel totally useless its very frustrating. Sometimes 20mins before race i'll be practicing and when the race starts i'll be 1.3 - 2.0 seconds off of what i was doing 20mins earlier with the same setup and same track conditions.

The only time i enjoy live track 3.0 is when its raining other than that it seems to be more problematic than anything else. I actually wish there was a setting to just turn it off because for me it kind of spoils the league racing a bit and its starting to change the way i feel about the game, its almost become impossible to properly prepare for races because im not sure what kind of car i will get once the race starts for example my last AOR race i was running low 2:08's with 105litres in practice literally 15mins earlier and then once the race started i was doing high 2:09s low 2:10s same conditions same setup and in my head im like there is nothing i can do about this because the grip levels are just terrible but it seems to effect some more than others its just weird.

You still don't know if it's LiveTrack 3.0. It could also be a consoles issue not having enough processing power, or maybe a connection issue with people with a very high ping. PC2 is more demanding and complicated than PC1 so it could be a lot of things. You should all practice together, all participants, and maybe do a test race prior to the actual race to see if it's consistent.

CoproManiac
01-04-2018, 18:02
You still don't know if it's LiveTrack 3.0. It could also be a consoles issue not having enough processing power, or maybe a connection issue with people with a very high ping. PC2 is more demanding and complicated than PC1 so it could be a lot of things. You should all practice together, all participants, and maybe do a test race prior to the actual race to see if it's consistent.

What's he's saying is not a problem limited to consoles, everything he's stated is exactly what I'm noticing in the game and I'm on PC. There's something going on with this game.

g.stew
01-04-2018, 23:34
I'm wondering if the debris on track during races is part of it. A big difference between races and practice/qualifying is more drivers having to put tires off track, especially in race starts when cars are running a few wide. This is supposed to bring a lot of dirt and debris on to the track, which should affect grip.

This was the item related to Livetrack in the 4.0 patch notes:

Improved Livetrack 3.0 performance.

Improved performance could mean we're now seeing the expected behavior of Live Track, where we weren't seeing it before. We can only guess, but it's just a thought I had when trying to consider the differences between race and practice that we might not be thinking about since they aren't things we control.

Ian Bell
03-04-2018, 03:20
Just so you know, iīve managed to understand the issue, just made small changes in set up. On Xbox One X, things donīt change that much, i really now think itīs all due to dirty air from other cars and rubbered track, that make me get more understeer than in Free Practice.

The XOneX maintains 600Hz, physics at all times without stepping down to our minimum of 400Hz. What you are experiencing are some very detailed draft/downforce reduction effects when running in 'dirty air'. That and a fair amount of particles being dragged onto the track by AI and possibly yourself. Oh and marbles building slightly offline and affecting your overall grip for a while. Most/all of the above doesn't apply outside of a race.

There's more but if there's an area we were suboptimal in, it was in making all of this much more visual and obvious.

Ian Bell
03-04-2018, 03:21
Tyre pressures should be the same regardless if the track is rubbered in or not.

Unless they're preheated vs not preheated... It's up to you to get them up to adequate and balanced temperatures.

falm
03-04-2018, 07:15
Unless they're preheated vs not preheated... It's up to you to get them up to adequate and balanced temperatures.

Sorry for going off topic, but I have to say, it's great to see Ian back. :)

F1_Racer68
03-04-2018, 15:48
You still don't know if it's LiveTrack 3.0. It could also be a consoles issue not having enough processing power, or maybe a connection issue with people with a very high ping. PC2 is more demanding and complicated than PC1 so it could be a lot of things. You should all practice together, all participants, and maybe do a test race prior to the actual race to see if it's consistent.

It's not a Console specific issue. We run on PC and had many members complain about this in our past season as well. It also doesn't affect all drivers to the same extent. I have not had the issue in most races, but have experienced it a few times, while other drivers experience it nearly every time. IT is extremely noticeable when you spend almost 2 weeks preparing for each race and put in 40+hours of work into a single setup for a race weekend, only to have the car feel like you are on ice come race day.

Also, to add to this, the experience has been that the cars/track feel perfectly normal during the 50 minute practice session and 40 minute qualifying session with 25+ online players, but as soon as it switches to the RACE session, the problem manifests itself.

All of us have noted the fact that the tires at race start are preheated, and often at a higher pressure than what we have tuned the car for (Mine are set to be at 26 PSI, and are usually between 27 and 28 PSI at race start), so we are prepared for this and expect it. However, there is definitely far more to this than just the tire temps/pressures. This has been something we have been dealing with since day one.

msmith792
03-04-2018, 16:19
I agree 100%. I'm on PC as well and i've experienced the same issue. I almost wonder if its a computational limit or something behind the scenes that is reducing the frequency of input from the tire model. Just seems different. I've tried anything from 5 cars to 25 and it seems to only happen in a race. The FFB in PCars2 while not my favorite by a long margin, is usable in hotlap mode. However, I find races to be significantly different and not enjoyable due to the change in handling/ffb.

I'd like to know if the FFB data frequency or physics are changed at all when racing with multiple cars on a track. Seems like it must be different.

Jordan_m6
03-04-2018, 21:56
Well, if you guys think about it. Drafting generates more speed while slightly loosening the car if you have cars behind you. Just tighten the car a little. And you will be fine. Im no pro, but most racing games now days have a draft.

Practice in groups next or make sure you try to followed an AI in practice.

F1_Racer68
03-04-2018, 22:06
Well, if you guys think about it. Drafting generates more speed while slightly loosening the car if you have cars behind you. Just tighten the car a little. And you will be fine. Im no pro, but most racing games now days have a draft.

Practice in groups next or make sure you try to followed an AI in practice.

I think you are completely missing the point.......

PRactice session with 25 drivers, setup "x"..... car drives as expected.
Qualifying session with same 25 drivers and same setup "x"..... car drives as expected.
Race session with same 25 drivers and same setup "x"....... Car might drive as expected, or car might be completely undriveable with significantly less grip than in previous session of the same event.

This has NOTHING to do with draft, and the severity of how it impacts the car's handling can sometimes be significantly more than what hotter, over inflated tires would account for.

It also is NOT a matter of online vs. offline as it has been experienced in both environments.

Jordan_m6
03-04-2018, 22:44
Nerves... you have plenty of them and they are showing.





That affects driving habits.... btw. I may be new here but ive been racing games since Grand Turismo.

CoproManiac
03-04-2018, 22:54
I don't understand why the point of drafting has even come up. This has nothing to do with draft, even when there's no cars close by whatsoever the handling of the car differs from practice session.

Jordan_m6
03-04-2018, 23:30
Its where it start people try to drive a certain way, forget that even having a car close can upset the balance of the car. Then they blow a corner. This is when nerves take over and throw off the driving habits.

Im pretty sure you people just want to blame something and its the programming of the game that its off. Would be nice to see telemetry of everyones driving habits during practice when you are concetrating on your markers and apexs'. Then when you hit the track in a race, while you are concentration on getting to the front rather than running your race.

F1_Racer68
03-04-2018, 23:49
Nerves... you have plenty of them and they are showing.





That affects driving habits.... btw. I may be new here but ive been racing games since Grand Turismo.

That's funny..... :rolleyes: If you really want to get into a dick measuring contest, we can go there. Let's just say I am pretty sure I have been racing sims (and driving real cars) longer than you have been out of diapers. So my advice is check your ego at the door.

CoproManiac
03-04-2018, 23:54
Its where it start people try to drive a certain way, forget that even having a car close can upset the balance of the car. Then they blow a corner. This is when nerves take over and throw off the driving habits.

Im pretty sure you people just want to blame something and its the programming of the game that its off. Would be nice to see telemetry of everyones driving habits during practice when you are concetrating on your markers and apexs'. Then when you hit the track in a race, while you are concentration on getting to the front rather than running your race.

lol... I hope you're not serious.

Jordan_m6
04-04-2018, 00:08
Half of the people who whine and complain about this are their worse enemy.

Yea, I dont care how old you are F1or how long you have been doing something. You can dress up all of your profile with BS and it still doesnt mean anything to anyone. Also if you are so good at this why not help someone with a tune rather than throw some BS excuse at someone. (Btw... my 15 yr old has more computer) <--- yes thats a shot at you... I dont like the instability of computers and would rather dump money into welders and tools that go in my garage to build real cars.

Tighten the car up and try not to over drive the car in the race. How you tighten the car is based off of your specific driving style.

CoproManiac
04-04-2018, 00:19
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?62349-Car-behaving-COMPLETELY-different-in-race-vs-private-testing&p=1495701&viewfull=1#post1495701

Go check out his videos and then tell us again it's simply our drivestyle.

hkraft300
04-04-2018, 00:26
lol... I hope you're not serious.

You must be joking if you don’t think race day nerves is not a factor.

As is drafting and aero.

Jordan has a point, but I’m not sure if he’s familiar with the live track sync issue.

I haven’t experienced my car being “completely undriveable” come race time. I haven’t had the live track sync problem myself but I’ve seen In wet races where others have continued on setting dry lap times on slicks and pitted much later than everyone else. Before patch 4.

I think some people are exaggerating (eg OP). A slight change in handling/ balances grip levels doesn’t make the car ”completely undriveable”.

Race starts give you automatic warmed up tires. Takes a couple laps to settle so your car will handle different.

Aero effects of many cars in close proximity already discussed.

You MUST reload your setup after qualifying during the race ready screen, or you get I think default setup or at least wrong tires. I’m anal about the details and micro manage the game, from tuning to pit stops and I don’t have issues.

F1_Racer68
04-04-2018, 00:31
Half of the people who whine and complain about this are their worse enemy.

Yea, I dont care how old you are F1or how long you have been doing something. You can dress up all of your profile with BS and it still doesnt mean anything to anyone. Also if you are so good at this why not help someone with a tune rather than throw some BS excuse at someone. (Btw... my 15 yr old has more computer) <--- yes thats a shot at you... I dont like the instability of computers and would rather dump money into welders and tools that go in my garage to build real cars.

Tighten the car up and try not to over drive the car in the race. How you tighten the car is based off of your specific driving style.

Says the guy who started with the "I've been racing since Gran Turismo".... laughable at best.

As for the rest of your comments, considering that you know nothing about me, my tuning abilities, my driving abilites, they'll just go on the "Just another Internet troll trying to make himself sound superior" pile. I've already wasted far too much time on you.

hkraft300
04-04-2018, 00:35
Easy F1. He’s new round here. He hasn’t met the senior citizens on the forum yet :p

Jordan_m6
04-04-2018, 00:35
Ive yet to experience having to reload a tune on the ONE.

I have experienced the very loose behavior of the car, but i entered the race thinking my car would handle like it would after a warm up lap. If you race the AI then they do not experience the samething, so most people over drive the car on lap one and get mad. Then they come here for answers.

Jordan_m6
04-04-2018, 00:37
I came here for PC2 tuning knowledge and of course the internet is full of people who dont like others opinions.

cpcdem
04-04-2018, 00:40
Guys, hasn't it all been answered already just a few posts above?

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?62349-Car-behaving-COMPLETELY-different-in-race-vs-private-testing&p=1496123&viewfull=1#post1496123

As Ian Bell said, the real problem is that the track differences from practice to race (particles, marbles, green or not track, even wind direction and speed I would add) are not visible somehow on the track, so we get caught on surprise sometimes. If there was a way to tell what the exact conditions are, we wouldn't be wondering about all this.

hkraft300
04-04-2018, 00:41
Ive yet to experience having to reload a tune on the ONE.


Done it by mistake and ended up with hard tires when I had soft tires set on my setup. Also different fuel loads, etc.

My tunes are a fair bit different from default so I notice immediately. Makes the car slightly different, but not undriveable as some suggest. Unless I’m stuck with soft tires on a hot track, which has happened too.

Also, yes. +1 for race driver excuses. We all have em.

F1_Racer68
04-04-2018, 00:44
Easy F1. He’s new round here. He hasn’t met the senior citizens on the forum yet :p

Well, like I said. He needs to check his ego at the door.

Now, as for the issue, you know that I have been around this place long enough to know the "work arounds". Myself, I only started experiencing the issue recently, and even then, only sporadically. Others in the league have been complaining about it since day 1. And yes, some of us wrote it off as "nerves", much like Jordan suggested. But when some of our most experienced drivers start commenting about it, you start to take it a bit more seriously. Finally experiencing it myself recently, I take it a LOT more seriously now.

Jordan_m6
04-04-2018, 00:53
Youre emotions kick in first. Just saying

My tuning issue started with the Radical SU8 (or whatever) couldnt even get the car to go around the track. Between the brakes locking up due to low temps or the rear differential decel locking as I feather the throttle in the middle of turns.

I made the car .2 seconds off the leader at 70% difficulty. Jumped in a race and immediatly realised the AI dont experience the same tire warm up and brake warm up everyone else does.

CoproManiac
04-04-2018, 00:54
Well, like I said. He needs to check his ego at the door.

Now, as for the issue, you know that I have been around this place long enough to know the "work arounds". Myself, I only started experiencing the issue recently, and even then, only sporadically. Others in the league have been complaining about it since day 1. And yes, some of us wrote it off as "nerves", much like Jordan suggested. But when some of our most experienced drivers start commenting about it, you start to take it a bit more seriously. Finally experiencing it myself recently, I take it a LOT more seriously now.

Nahh man, it's all in your head, it's not the game. "I've played racing games since Gran Turismo"... lol

Jordan_m6
04-04-2018, 00:58
Nahh man, it's all in your head, it's not the game. "I've played racing games since Gran Turismo"... lol
Twisting words.... typical. You must be a tide pod challenge winner.

CoproManiac
04-04-2018, 01:08
Im pretty sure you people just want to blame something and its the programming of the game that its off.


btw. I may be new here but ive been racing games since Grand Turismo.

Thought you said it quite literally.
But this is turning into another "It's a game-related issue" vs "It's an all-in-your-head issue".

There's people here expressing their issues they have with this game. Some are very experienced, some are a bit less experienced.
I just can't stand it when people get put down like 'it's just a bit of extra stress during races', or 'draft changes the way you have to take a corner'.
Most people know these things already and still feel there's something off with this game, and after all the things we've experienced with this game in the past, is there not a chance that something might actually be off?

I dunno how long you've been playing this game, but you're quite new to the forums thus maybe you have not played it as long as some of us have and are unaware of the issues there were with LiveTrack 3.0, setups and tyremodels before this current patch.
We're just people pointing out we see a problem with the game, which has nothing to do with draft or stress-related issues.

Jordan_m6
04-04-2018, 01:19
I can hit the same times during a race that I can during practice. Just not on lap one like the AI can, which most people including the OP is probably experiencing.

CoproManiac
04-04-2018, 01:26
I can hit the same times during a race that I can during practice. Just not on lap one like the AI can, which most people including the OP is probably experiencing.

I'm proud of you :)

Jordan_m6
04-04-2018, 01:44
Thank you, now that class is over. You can complain about a video games unrealistic behavior without me.

sylekta
04-04-2018, 03:13
jordan these guys arnt talking about racing AI on easy
they are talking about online league racing with the fastest guys in the game. some of these guys even race in real life so have shit loads of sim and real world racing experience

when they go through a practise and quali session and they have their race pace dialed in, then suddenly the car behaves totally differently in the race it is very noticeable and you cant just blame it on nerves

Jordan_m6
04-04-2018, 10:10
Really? Thought they were talking about space ships. Hell back to my space rock.

I can guarantee you the OP (followed by the next 2 responders) is 100% talking about hitting the race track in caree mode. So, everyone of you who threw an excuse at the guy didnt help them rather than trying to explain to them that they need to look and log some of the information the telemetry screen is telling them at practice and during the race. Then adjust the suspension/tires to accomedate some of the differences.

I am fully aware there are plenty of tuning threads to assist new users with their issue, but people are lazy and would rather have someone give them the miracle tune.

In the end you are creating a bad name for the game to anyone who is trying to step away from forza or perhaps just getting into racing games.

Sankyo
04-04-2018, 10:22
Please cut out the personal attacks in the discussion and concentrate on the issue described. Telling someone is wrong can be done without getting personal, but before you do you have to be very sure that he/she is actually wrong about something.

CoproManiac
04-04-2018, 10:38
Really? Thought they were talking about space ships. Hell back to my space rock.

I can guarantee you the OP (followed by the next 2 responders) is 100% talking about hitting the race track in caree mode. So, everyone of you who threw an excuse at the guy didnt help them rather than trying to explain to them that they need to look and log some of the information the telemetry screen is telling them at practice and during the race. Then adjust the suspension/tires to accomedate some of the differences.

I am fully aware there are plenty of tuning threads to assist new users with their issue, but people are lazy and would rather have someone give them the miracle tune.

In the end you are creating a bad name for the game to anyone who is trying to step away from forza or perhaps just getting into racing games.

They're not talking about career mode. It's good to know where the confusion is coming from though.
Might I ask if you have even touched the online gamemode yet? If you haven't, then you might simply not understand what we're discussing here.
(Edit: this is not an attack on him, it's a genuine question.)


Can anybody explain why my car behaves completely different during a race vs when in private testing session ???


I had to quit 2 race, because my car was simply undriveable.


Alot of people in the league racing are saying this as well.

hkraft300
04-04-2018, 12:19
The Times it's happened to me I flicked up the telemetry screen and saw wrong tires.
Have any of you checked telemetry and seen wrong tires/ fuel load/pressures etc when you experience the " car is totally undriveable" issue?

CoproManiac
04-04-2018, 12:32
The Times it's happened to me I flicked up the telemetry screen and saw wrong tires.
Have any of you checked telemetry and seen wrong tires/ fuel load/pressures etc when you experience the " car is totally undriveable" issue?

Yes, I check the telemetry screen regularly during the race when the car feels off.
I load up the correct setup every time prior to the race due to some kind of paranoia I built up because of setup bugs in previous patches xD

The way the tyres interact with the track surface changes from private sessions to race session.
It was mentioned before that this might have something to do with dirt on the track, which I don't think is the issue as some people do experience difference whilst others don't.
Which leaves me to think there's more problems with either the tyres or LiveTrack 3.0. Somewhat similar to previous patches where some would experience a dry track whilst it was raining, whilst others were driving on a soaked track.

rich1e I
04-04-2018, 12:50
I think if more and more people report this there must be something wrong. The question is what exactly makes the car undrivable. One factor people seem to mention quite often is that it feels like driving on ice, so obviously there's no grip. I noticed that hard tyres don't heat up like they did before the latest patch. I first noticed an issue with tyres in an online session at Monza in TCR. I can't remember the exact track temps but I remember that I had zero grip and my tyres where actually almost frozen while the other guys in the lobby were 10 or more seconds faster. Tyres wouldn't heat up at all after 5 or more laps. It was insane.
So, what does 'the car is undrivable' mean? Is it tyres not heating up properly? I mean, that's what causes the cars to feel like driving on ice.

Schnizz58
04-04-2018, 14:40
I think if more and more people report this there must be something wrong.
Despite what the deniers say, there definitely is something wrong.



So, what does 'the car is undrivable' mean? Is it tyres not heating up properly? I mean, that's what causes the cars to feel like driving on ice.

I wouldn't say it's undriveable because I've been able to finish and sometimes even win races. But you have to drive completely differently. It's almost like a rally style of driving. You have to flick the car into turns, straighten the wheel before you get to the apex and slide out to the exit.

Also it's not the hard tires because I have less grip on softs in a career event than I do on hards when in a private testing session under the same conditions. The problem, as I've said before, is overall grip. There is very little of it when there is a full grid of cars on the track.

msmith792
04-04-2018, 14:58
Agreed. Not undriveable, but totally different and feels very numb and unpredictable. If it really is "dirty air" and marbles, then the effect is exaggerated too much in my opinion. I'd like to see that effect toned down at the least if that really is the cause.

I'm still questioning whether we are getting the same physics though. It really feels like the sampling rate or something is reduced.

hkraft300
04-04-2018, 15:34
hypothesis: livetrack sync issue where the track becomes completely green, or the rubbering effect is going haywire come race time.

cpcdem
04-04-2018, 15:37
I think it's many different possible things:

- Marbles, rubbered track or not, wind and things like that
- Draft/reduced downforce due to that. Even due to humidity I think I've read...
- Sometimes Assists appear as set or not, while in fact they are actually set to the opposite state. So you may expect you are racing with traction control and ABS, while in fact you are not.
- Sometimes you think you have hard tires, but you have soft instead, or vice versa. Maybe related to setup not always loading correctly when race starts.
- Tire temps and pressures are sometimes different to what you expect them to be. Unfortunately the tire temp is only shown vaguely in the car staus graphic and additionally after patch 4, the pressure in bar shows no precision, so it makes things even more complicated (in the heat of the race start it is not really easy going to telemetry screen)

Then it's also the possibility of some kind of physics issue, but I'm 95% convinced that almost always (apart maybe form when racing in a low spec machine) it's one or more of the above that causes the strange feeling while racing (sometimes of course only). Some of the above are due to game bugs, which I hope they will be fixed soon. The rest are a presentation thing, somehow we need to be more aware of the general conditions I think.

hkraft300
04-04-2018, 15:51
I think it's many different possible things:
...
- Sometimes Assists appear as set or not, while in fact they are actually set to the opposite state. So you may expect you are racing with traction control and ABS, while in fact you are not.
...
- Tire temps and pressures are sometimes different to what you expect them to be. Unfortunately the tire temp is only shown vaguely in the car staus graphic and additionally after patch 4, the pressure in bar shows no precision, so it makes things even more complicated (in the heat of the race start it is not really easy going to telemetry screen)


Maybe it’s assists switching themselves off. Has anyone checked when they suffered the “completely different” behaviour?

Jordan_m6
04-04-2018, 15:51
I have but i have never experienced the game prior to the large update that was something like 1 month ago.

Was not a fan of the drivers found in regular races. So yes this game is relatively new, but that also means im not really the affected be the changes.

CoproManiac
04-04-2018, 15:51
I think it's many different possible things:

- Marbles, rubbered track or not, wind and things like that
- Draft/reduced downforce due to that. Even due to humidity I think I've read...
- Sometimes Assists appear as set or not, while in fact they are actually set to the opposite state. So you may expect you are racing with traction control and ABS, while in fact you are not.
- Sometimes you think you have hard tires, but you have soft instead, or vice versa. Maybe related to setup not always loading correctly when race starts.
- Tire temps and pressures are sometimes different to what you expect them to be. Unfortunately the tire temp is only shown vaguely in the car staus graphic and additionally after patch 4, the pressure in bar shows no precision, so it makes things even more complicated (in the heat of the race start it is not really easy going to telemetry screen)

Then it's also the possibility of some kind of physics issue, but I'm 95% convinced that almost always (apart maybe form when racing in a low spec machine) it's one or more of the above that causes the strange feeling while racing (sometimes of course only). Some of the above are due to game bugs, which I hope they will be fixed soon. The rest are a presentation thing, somehow we need to be more aware of the general conditions I think.

I'm 95% sure it's not one of the above.

- Marbles, rubbered track or not, wind and things like that
If this was the case, everybody would feel a difference but not everybody does. Also, if this was the case you can be quite sure a lot more of these kind of threads would be started.

- Draft/reduced downforce due to that. Even due to humidity I think I've read...
This occurs even when not in the proximity of other cars.

- Sometimes Assists appear as set or not, while in fact they are actually set to the opposite state. So you may expect you are racing with traction control and ABS, while in fact you are not.
This might be possible, but doesn't explain the issue of cars feeling like they're skidding on the surface.

- Sometimes you think you have hard tires, but you have soft instead, or vice versa. Maybe related to setup not always loading correctly when race starts.
This is not the case, I check my telemetry regularly when my car feels off.

- Tire temps and pressures are sometimes different to what you expect them to be. Unfortunately the tire temp is only shown vaguely in the car staus graphic and additionally after patch 4, the pressure in bar shows no precision, so it makes things even more complicated (in the heat of the race start it is not really easy going to telemetry screen)
It's true that it shows vaguely (please SMS, add the decimal numbers), but when you switch to the telemetry screen, tyre pressures and temperatures are displayed fully.

hkraft300
04-04-2018, 15:54
...

- Sometimes Assists appear as set or not, while in fact they are actually set to the opposite state. So you may expect you are racing with traction control and ABS, while in fact you are not.
This might be possible, but doesn't explain the issue of cars feeling like they're skidding on the surface.
...

The “completely different”/ “undriveable” descriptions are exaggerations.

If you’ve tuned the car to rely on assists, it will feel very different when the assists are off.

I think the assists turning itself off could be a legit cause.

CoproManiac
04-04-2018, 15:56
Maybe it’s assists switching themselves off. Has anyone checked when they suffered the “completely different” behaviour?

I have an upcoming race tonight, I will try it out.

CoproManiac
04-04-2018, 15:58
The “completely different”/ “undriveable” descriptions are exaggerations.

If you’ve tuned the car to rely on assists, it will feel very different when the assists are off.

I think the assists turning itself off could be a legit cause.

Completely undriveable might be an exaggeration, completely different really isn't.
Sometimes I spend a couple of hours setting up the car and testing the car and in a lot of cases, the car does indeed feel completely different. It's like you have to relearn how to drive the car during the race.

rich1e I
04-04-2018, 16:08
I think the experienced league racers could tell if it was just assists turning themselves off. I think it's a combination of issues. I myself can say that TCR at Monza was absolutely undriveable due to frozen tyres and they wouldn't want to heat up AT ALL while the other guys in the lobby seemed to have no issues. That's at least what I'm experiencing.
It's definitely a strange one. It seems we need to pay more attention when it happens again and gather more info on this matter.

cpcdem
04-04-2018, 16:19
- Marbles, rubbered track or not, wind and things like that
If this was the case, everybody would feel a difference but not everybody does. Also, if this was the case you can be quite sure a lot more of these kind of threads would be started.


Well, I also sometimes experience what you guys are describing, but it is relatively rare and in most cases I realized it was due to one of the reasons I listed. In a very few cases I could not explain it, it just felt strange, but I did not start such a thread because I did not really have much information to provide. I suspect it was due to one or more of the other reasons I listed, without being completely sure about it of course.

F1_Racer68
04-04-2018, 16:23
The “completely different”/ “undriveable” descriptions are exaggerations.

If you’ve tuned the car to rely on assists, it will feel very different when the assists are off.

I think the assists turning itself off could be a legit cause.

Sorry hkraft300 but I will disagree with you about them being "exaggrations".

I used to think that way myself until I recently experienced one of those "completely different" situations myself.

Given the level of competition I face, and the number of known idiosyncracies pCARS2 has, I have always done everything I can to reduce the variables when preparing for a race event. As such, all my tuning is done for each track using the exact conditions expected for race night. That includes using a "private" online room that includes a practice, qualifying and race session, filled with the same number of AI drivers as we expect for our race night. While the split in classes might not be identical, this ensure that I have the same number of cars circulating on the track thereby laying down roughly the same amount of rubber as we should expect on race night.

Now, in those test sessions, I will generally find that I can lay down some solid, consistent, and predictable laps easily during the practice and qualifying sessions. And yes, before ANYONE asks, my tuning changes are only.made during the practice session. Once qualifying session starts I focus solely on laying down laps. I also do not build a "qualifying" setup as starting position doesn't matter. Remember, I am focused on getting my car set for a league race, which are at minimum 90 minute races. My focus is on setting the car up to where I can run consistent pace for a full fuel/tire stint.

So, with all that said, usually I will notice a slight difference in the car at the start of the race session due to all of things already mentioned (draft, preheated tires, over pressured tires, etc.). These differences are minor and can be driven around until the tires stabalize and the pack spreads out. Those issues are also EXPECTED behaviour.

What is NOT expected behaviour, is when the car is working as expected during practice and qualifying, but once the race session starts, the car will no longer slow down in braking zones, will not turn into the corner, and/or will spin out the minute you even look at the throttle. These are the situations that drivers are referring to as "completely different" or "undriveable". The car/track suddenly goes from being "on rails" in the preliminary sessions to being a frozen puck on a water covered hockey rink in race conditions.

The frustrating part is that it does not happen all the time, and it does not happen to all drivers. As I said, other drivers in our league complained about it during the season we just ended, yet I never had any issue (other than the expected ones mentioned earlier). While preparing for this season's opening race at Dubai, I have encountered it at least 4 times in the past 3 weeks. I am no longer a "doubter" or "denier" of it. The issue is real, but because of it's apparent randomness, I expect it to be very difficult to identify. I am convinced that it is in LiveTrack more than in the tire model though, for no other reason than the fact that some tracks seem to present the issue more than others (based purely on anecdotal observation of past complaints in the league).

So yes, for now the answer is "suck it up and deal with it", but that doesn't mean we should simply continue to deny it or ignore it and not investigate it.

Schnizz58
04-04-2018, 17:07
hypothesis: livetrack sync issue where the track becomes completely green, or the rubbering effect is going haywire come race time.

Maybe but it never gets any better throughout the course of an event and it doesn't explain why in private testing there is much more grip right from the start on a green track.

Schnizz58
04-04-2018, 17:10
If you’ve tuned the car to rely on assists, it will feel very different when the assists are off.

I think the assists turning itself off could be a legit cause.
In that case wouldn't you sometimes have grip and sometimes not?

CoproManiac
04-04-2018, 17:48
Maybe but it never gets any better throughout the course of an event and it doesn't explain why in private testing there is much more grip right from the start on a green track.

Well, it sometimes actually does get better throughout the course of an event.
A couple of weeks ago I had a race at Silverstone, car felt horrible the first 40-45 minutes. Then all of a sudden it started feeling like a charm during the last 15-20 minutes.

ermo
04-04-2018, 18:04
What is NOT expected behaviour, is when the car is working as expected during practice and qualifying, but once the race session starts, the car will no longer slow down in braking zones, will not turn into the corner, and/or will spin out the minute you even look at the throttle. These are the situations that drivers are referring to as "completely different" or "undriveable". The car/track suddenly goes from being "on rails" in the preliminary sessions to being a frozen puck on a water covered hockey rink in race conditions.


Are the cornering/acceleration/braking numbers lower to the point where it is discernible when studying the telemetry*? I can't think of another way to instrument this if the goal is give the devs something to go on. :)

*: This is of course assuming that there are working telemetry apps for PC2.

Schnizz58
04-04-2018, 19:19
Well, it sometimes actually does get better throughout the course of an event.
A couple of weeks ago I had a race at Silverstone, car felt horrible the first 40-45 minutes. Then all of a sudden it started feeling like a charm during the last 15-20 minutes.

That's never happened to me. It's very consistent. I have plenty of grip in private testing; none in career.

Schnizz58
04-04-2018, 19:21
Are the cornering/acceleration/braking numbers lower to the point where it is discernible when studying the telemetry*? I can't think of another way to instrument this if the goal is give the devs something to go on. :)

*: This is of course assuming that there are working telemetry apps for PC2.
I was thinking about this too the other day. I think a good test would be to do some laps in a practice session in a career event then do some laps at the same track under the same conditions in a private testing session. Then compare the tire slip graphs. If I get some time in the next few days I may give this a try. If I do, I'll post the results.

CoproManiac
04-04-2018, 20:21
That's never happened to me. It's very consistent. I have plenty of grip in private testing; none in career.

I don't play career, I play online only.

sylekta
04-04-2018, 22:08
For a specific example of this phenom, I was doing consistent 1:38's on fuji qualifying session (ferrari 488 gt3) in my race trim setup, carrying 50l of fuel. Thus I expected my race pace to be mid 1:39s and pushing 1:38 when the fuel load started to drop or I push the car to attack. I start the race and immediately the car feels different to quali, its like the tyres are completely cold even though they start pre-warmed. I almost spin under brakes into T1 and I get massive understeer going into T2 so I back off thinking I need to let the tyres warm up and pressures stabilize. 5 laps later and my race pace is 1:41 and I am not improving at all, there is just no grip. I am running hards with perfect 1.8Bar on all 4 corners, temps are sitting nicely at 85*C and yet I am 3+ seconds off the pace I was doing in quali with the exact same setup and conditions are exactly the same as qualifying, ambient and track temp are the same, same weather. I can attribute first lap moments to nerves but being way off the pace several laps into the race is not nerves. I made sure I loaded the setup in the pre-race screen, the info panel in top right showed correct compound and expected warm starting pressure.

DECATUR PLAYA
07-04-2018, 04:57
Alright gonna give away a team secret here. Had to get this ok'd before I gave it up.

Do a custom single player race 5-7 laps. No AI. No Qualifying. No practice. Do your tunes there. You just have to keep hitting restart session. No damage to online rep.

Two different philosophies at play here. Building a fast car and building a race car.

Private testing is the best way to find your tune. This is the best way to fine tune your tune.

In private testing you get 3 free laps because it takes time to heat the tires. You may not push past optimal temps for 8-10 laps. The first lap is pretty undriveable but on the 2nd and 3rd lap you can set some pretty quick lap times.

In a race there are no freebies. The tires are already warm so they push past optimal temps quicker depending on your setup. This is why around the 2nd or 3rd lap your setup goes to s###. This is why some guys run no tire wear and no fuel decrease so they dont have to deal with a car that falls off. This is hardcore tuning and as more of the tire model gets patched in this is what your going too see.

Bultaco85
07-04-2018, 13:54
Thanks man, great advice! Never thought about this. But what iīd like to know is if what is happening to people is realistic or bug.

Bultaco85
07-04-2018, 13:54
This is exactly the same thing that happened to me.

sylekta
08-04-2018, 03:56
Alright gonna give away a team secret here. Had to get this ok'd before I gave it up.

Do a custom single player race 5-7 laps. No AI. No Qualifying. No practice. Do your tunes there. You just have to keep hitting restart session. No damage to online rep.


this is what I do to test my race trim (and practice launches!) :)
Can dial the AI skill up to the point where they are slightly faster then your race pace and get good experience defending against faster cars

Justin Case
09-04-2018, 20:25
No it's not! Can't find where to change platform to ps4

CoproManiac
09-04-2018, 20:34
No it's not! Can't find where to change platform to ps4

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/member.php?98784-Justin-Case
Click on 'About Me'. Next to 'Platform', click on the yellow marker.

Also, I think you posted your comment in the wrong thread xD

Justin Case
09-04-2018, 20:40
Gr8 :D

DECATUR PLAYA
10-04-2018, 17:39
Alright gonna give away a team secret here. Had to get this ok'd before I gave it up.

Do a custom single player race 5-7 laps. No AI. No Qualifying. No practice. Do your tunes there. You just have to keep hitting restart session. No damage to online rep.

Two different philosophies at play here. Building a fast car and building a race car.

Private testing is the best way to find your tune. This is the best way to fine tune your tune.

In private testing you get 3 free laps because it takes time to heat the tires. You may not push past optimal temps for 8-10 laps. The first lap is pretty undriveable but on the 2nd and 3rd lap you can set some pretty quick lap times.

In a race there are no freebies. The tires are already warm so they push past optimal temps quicker depending on your setup. This is why around the 2nd or 3rd lap your setup goes to s###. This is why some guys run no tire wear and no fuel decrease so they dont have to deal with a car that falls off. This is hardcore tuning and as more of the tire model gets patched in this is what your going too see.

I dont have the 5.0 patch yet so I dont know how this applies to pc guys.

Your race trim set up may feel really tight in qualifying or private testing. If its race tested then you have to trust it. It may also be a little tight at the beginning of a race. The idea is to get it to sort of break in over the course of the race like breaking in a new pair of shoes. The shoes are tight at first but after a couple of wears(laps) they break in just fine.

So your fast lap setups are fine just use them for qualifying. The reason im saying this is because once you get the car into race trim it may not feel good as a qualifying car which may cause you to second guess your race trim setup and start changing things. I did it last night. If you use the above method for race trim and then use your race trim setup to qualify it may not feel very good at all until late in the run then it will come to life. When it comes to life for me I have a small window to run some fast lap. Laps 5-7. If you just use your 3 lap qualifying setup then you could be be in the middle of your second run while the race trim set up you have to wait 5 laps to get fast.

Schnizz58
11-04-2018, 14:59
I was thinking about this too the other day. I think a good test would be to do some laps in a practice session in a career event then do some laps at the same track under the same conditions in a private testing session. Then compare the tire slip graphs. If I get some time in the next few days I may give this a try. If I do, I'll post the results.

Just wanted to report that I'm still planning to do this. I tried last night but I had so little grip that I couldn't get any consistent laps done with AI on the track. My test setup is Watkins Glen, Lambo ST, Aug 12 10am, clear. These are the conditions for the practice session of the event I'm on in career mode.

I ran several laps but didn't manage more than about 3 in a row before spinning out. Even though I didn't get much good data in career mode, just for grins I set up the same conditions in a private test and ran a few laps. The difference in feel was enormous even though the tires hadn't warmed up yet in the private test. I compared the tire graphs from the two runs and there were several places where the rear tires were spinning like crazy with AI but gripping pretty well in the private test (even with cold tires). I'll try again when I have more time and patience. I sort of just rage quit last night because it felt like I was on a rally course.

brezza
12-04-2018, 08:44
I experience the same thing. There's something off with this game, not trying to bash or anything.
I can spend hours in practice to make a good setup, as soon as it's raceday the car behaves strange. Certainly it does not feel like the car I've made the setup for, sometimes the car is even undriveable and I've had to quit from a couple of races because it didn't feel safe and I was afraid of ruining somebody else's race.

I dunno if the effects are overdone, or maybe there's something with LiveTrack 3.0, all I know is there's something off. Even laptimes are off, in practice I'm 1-2 seconds faster per lap than I am during the actual race.

I don't even know how to practice anymore, it seems almost futile to even practice (apart from better understanding the track i.e. driving lines, brake point, turn points).
Start Practice Session, create setup. Then start offline mode vs AI, car behaves completely different. Create online session vs AI, car behaves differently again. Then it's raceday, car behaves differently again.
Sometime the car feels good, most of the times the car feels off.
What's the point of practicing when the car will feel different almost every single session?

I'm certainly not the only one who's noticing this. Even in the league I'm racing in people complain how their car feels totally different to the point of it being undriveable.

Now you might ask why there's not more of these kind of posts. I think I can answer that; because most people don't drive in a league.
I have never noticed this strange behavior until I joined a league. Before that, I just joined random online lobbies and created a setup in the qualifying session, or I simply adjusted a couple of things when there's not too much time left.
I never used Practice Session to create a setup before that, and now that I do, I definitely notice the strange behavior.

It's got nothing to do with loading a setup before the race, as I always do that.

Some people seem to not notice a difference, whilst others do. I don't know if it might be a hardware issue, or that it has something to do with LiveTrack 3.0. But there's definitely something going on which I can't simply point out the cause of.
A couple of patches ago, there were problems with LiveTrack 3.0 in which some people were driving on a different surface (some people were driving on a wet track, whilst others were driving on a dry track). Maybe there's more issues with LiveTrack 3.0 like these that are harder to point out.

Other than these problems, the mass disconnects are ruining the game. It's like 2 or 3 out of every 5 games, disconnects happen. Sometimes the lobby is split into 2, or even 3. Sometimes you just get disconnected from the game and get put back in the main menu.
I don't think this game is actually eSports ready, to me personally it feels like I'm playing a beta version.

Again, I'm not trying to bash, I'm just pointing out some of the issues I've been having with this game and I hope these things will get fixed in upcoming patches.

I have the exactly the same feeling!!!! I run online races at AOR, making my setup in my private lobby in practice mode with every settings for the race....but when online qual/race starts that's something different, more or less its hepening to me all the time.
Don't know how to prepare for race anymore.

demand34
12-04-2018, 11:50
If the race day has different track temp than qualy, then you have to reload loose or stable setup (SMS original setups), and then redo all of your tuning in that 2 mintues margin you have prior race.

If track temp and ambient pre-race stays the same as It was in qualy then just reload the setup you used for qualy.

It's not a xbox cpu problem. It is a livetrack issue combined with the already legendary other serious issues this sms engine has always suffered from dealing with file management and windows. It's same story since the days of NFS Shift, but now with the livetrack.

Prerace conditions identical to qualy?, just reload your qualy setup. Different track conditions?, redo your setup in those two minutes quickly after reloading original SMS loose or stable setup again.

Schnizz58
12-04-2018, 12:42
If the race day has different track temp than qualy, then you have to reload loose or stable setup (SMS original setups), and then redo all of your tuning in that 2 mintues margin you have prior race.

If track temp and ambient pre-race stays the same as It was in qualy then just reload the setup you used for qualy.

It's not a xbox cpu problem. It is a livetrack issue combined with the already legendary other serious issues this sms engine has always suffered from dealing with file management and windows. It's same story since the days of NFS Shift, but now with the livetrack.

Prerace conditions identical to qualy?, just reload your qualy setup. Different track conditions?, redo your setup in those two minutes quickly after reloading original SMS loose or stable setup again.

What about differences between private testing and career? That's what this thread is about.

Fight-Test
12-04-2018, 14:07
Another thought, it has always been recommended by sms not to overclock this game because of heavy load on cores. I don't even have a system that you can overclock and I have not seen any of these issues. Alot of problems have popped up for people because of overclocking and most can fix by reducing it some without turning it off. Just a thought.

GrimeyDog
12-04-2018, 20:48
If the race day has different track temp than qualy, then you have to reload loose or stable setup (SMS original setups), and then redo all of your tuning in that 2 mintues margin you have prior race.

If track temp and ambient pre-race stays the same as It was in qualy then just reload the setup you used for qualy.

It's not a xbox cpu problem. It is a livetrack issue combined with the already legendary other serious issues this sms engine has always suffered from dealing with file management and windows. It's same story since the days of NFS Shift, but now with the livetrack.

Prerace conditions identical to qualy?, just reload your qualy setup. Different track conditions?, redo your setup in those two minutes quickly after reloading original SMS loose or stable setup again.

Yes I also Notice a Difference in Set up feel vs Qualify feel!!! and thats with Me using Default set up with only fuel adjusted to 24 <-- Gt3 Lambo --> Ex: Last Night Racing online at Laguna Seca Qualify i can get 1:23.ŨŨŨ Easy but Race i Struggle to get a 1:24.ŨŨŨ.

senna94f1
14-04-2018, 04:44
When you are in a league and we you run practice and then qualy and then the race the track has loads of rubber ,

If we have a disconnection we have to restart race or put a 5 minute qualy which makes the track green which means no rubber on track for grip

You can see the rubber build up over a long race ,hence sometimes with worn tyres towards end of race you can put in fast lap times,

Hence I always try to set up a car with decent areo and tyre temps ,and then I will test it for couple of hours , I always us Ai and they are set around 70% and aggression 55% depends what track you are on for Ai thou,
In private testing the track is green ,

Plus the weather and air temps are also invovled ,

But I haven't noticed that huge a diffence , it's about aero and tyre temp with a little brake temp chuck in aswell ,

CoproManiac
14-04-2018, 08:43
I have the exactly the same feeling!!!! I run online races at AOR, making my setup in my private lobby in practice mode with every settings for the race....but when online qual/race starts that's something different, more or less its hepening to me all the time.
Don't know how to prepare for race anymore.

I run in AOR too. Something really interesting came up yesterday, in the forums of the Endurance League in which I participate also. It seems there indeed is a problem with LiveTrack 3.0, and desyncs still happen.
I've asked the guys who noticed this to post their findings themselves, to get more experienced drivers in the discussion.

This is not a draft/dirty air or marbles issue, LiveTrack 3.0 is not working as intended.

brezza
14-04-2018, 09:54
I run in AOR too. Something really interesting came up yesterday, in the forums of the Endurance League in which I participate also. It seems there indeed is a problem with LiveTrack 3.0, and desyncs still happen.
I've asked the guys who noticed this to post their findings themselves, to get more experienced drivers in the discussion.

This is not a draft/dirty air or marbles issue, LiveTrack 3.0 is not working as intended.

Yea, I thought your name sounds familiar to me :) I run also in endurance too, but with P2 car and things are little better bcs, I suppose, P2 has a much more downforce.
Interestingly, at Daytona, I was almost the same good in qualy like in my testing, just +0,2 sec, but in race i couldnt reach my 1:36-1:37 laptimes (was doing very very consistently 1:37 low)-it was 1:38 or more, just hardly 1:37.7 best time. Also, our p2p host has an unbelievable ping, download/upload values.
Generally, I have a better feeling with P2, but it is bcs a lots of downforce.
GT3 season (Audi R8) was very different story....more or less very different car behavior online than in my lobby practice. Dubai and Silverstone was, cannot say good, but kind of not so bad, but COTA, Long Beach and zuhai were very very bad feel of the car, especially at Long Beach where I was loosing my rear everywhere, and even cannot heat up my tyres not even close I should:those three races were fighting with the car-Long Beach was HORRIBLE.
Generaly and shortly, I feel like my car has no good contact with asphalt-so my brake points are not I used it, car slides inefficiently braking: when I turn rear end trying to escape: when I apply throttle exiting the corner I lose a traction....
I did some offline races and career races , but before path 4.0 and I didn't feel any kind of significant (if any at all) different car behavior in practice qualy or race. So livetrack should work in offline mode too, isn't it!?
That was my experience so far!

TX3 StorM
14-04-2018, 10:50
I confirm there's defintitely an issue with setups and cars behaving totally different between race and practice.

I have the proof this is happening. I was streaming the last round of the AOR Endurance Season (which finished earlier for me because I got a total loss of drive, very strange), but the fact was I couldn't get any closer to my pace.

After having retired I wanted to see if I was driving so badly or if there was something and or no reason I was immediately 1 second faster and even 2 seconds faster at some point.

(I can't post the livestream as I'm still considered a new member on the pCars forums lol).

CoproManiac
14-04-2018, 10:56
I confirm there's defintitely an issue with setups and cars behaving totally different between race and practice.

I have the proof this is happening. I was streaming the last round of the AOR Endurance Season (which finished earlier for me because I got a total loss of drive, very strange), but the fact was I couldn't get any closer to my pace.

After having retired I wanted to see if I was driving so badly or if there was something and or no reason I was immediately 1 second faster and even 2 seconds faster at some point.

(I can't post the livestream as I'm still considered a new member on the pCars forums lol).

If you would allow me :)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/249577696

MaXyM
14-04-2018, 11:47
as far as I reremember, issues with different behaviour between private practice and online sessions are present (and being reported) from beginning. Point is that in private practice car is always better settled. It's like the road has optimal grip while in online races it hasn't

Unfortunately no dev commented on this issue.

doc3d
14-04-2018, 19:21
Im going to have to jump on the bandwagon about something not right with the latest patch. (sorry for multiple posts)

In my current Career I doing the first race of the GT3 International Championship. Its at Road America in rain. In practice I can more or less match the AI (100/80) ending in 5th position with a 2.22.380 lap. Carrying on to Qualifying I am suddenly 3 seconds slower with my best being a 2.25.040 and Im having massive issues keeping the car on the road without spinning out. I confirm having wet tyres, but it feels like its on Slicks. The AI is suddenly running 2.19.8xx laps making me a full 3 seconds slower than I was in practice and AI 3 seconds faster than practice. I feel something is not right -skidding around the track like that, so I quit out and start a private session with same date, time and weather, and do a 2.23.860 on my first lap out. So already, without doing anything other than changing session I am 2 seconds faster and the car feels a lot better.
This is not right, and something has been broken in the patch. I dont know if its setups not loading correctly (I.E giving me slicks even tho telementry and setup calls out Wets) or if its a Livetrack issue which some folks have been implying already, or an AI problem perhaps (being very unstable WRT laptimes).. but *something* is off, and its very frustrating..

I will try the "reenter your setup from default Loose/Stable" solution to see if that helps and will post here if that fixes the issue (which doesnt mean it shouldnt be looked at, but at least then there would be some sort of work-around)

Also: I forgot to mention that the tyres go like butter as well. In my practice run, I ran 3 laps before rage-quitting, and that took out about 25% of my wet tyres. Temps are really low, like 50-60* C so its not overheating. In the Qualifying run I ran 5-6 laps with no abnormal tyre-wear so I have no idea whats going on there..

blinkngone
15-04-2018, 05:12
Im going to have to jump on the bandwagon about something not right with the latest patch. (sorry for multiple posts)

In my current Career I doing the first race of the GT3 International Championship. Its at Road America in rain. In practice I can more or less match the AI (100/80) ending in 5th position with a 2.22.380 lap. Carrying on to Qualifying I am suddenly 3 seconds slower with my best being a 2.25.040 and Im having massive issues keeping the car on the road without spinning out. I confirm having wet tyres, but it feels like its on Slicks. The AI is suddenly running 2.19.8xx laps making me a full 3 seconds slower than I was in practice and AI 3 seconds faster than practice. I feel something is not right -skidding around the track like that, so I quit out and start a private session with same date, time and weather, and do a 2.23.860 on my first lap out. So already, without doing anything other than changing session I am 2 seconds faster and the car feels a lot better.
This is not right, and something has been broken in the patch. I dont know if its setups not loading correctly (I.E giving me slicks even tho telementry and setup calls out Wets) or if its a Livetrack issue which some folks have been implying already, or an AI problem perhaps (being very unstable WRT laptimes).. but *something* is off, and its very frustrating..

I will try the "reenter your setup from default Loose/Stable" solution to see if that helps and will post here if that fixes the issue (which doesnt mean it shouldnt be looked at, but at least then there would be some sort of work-around)

Also: I forgot to mention that the tyres go like butter as well. In my practice run, I ran 3 laps before rage-quitting, and that took out about 25% of my wet tyres. Temps are really low, like 50-60* C so its not overheating. In the Qualifying run I ran 5-6 laps with no abnormal tyre-wear so I have no idea whats going on there..

Hi doc3d, AsTurbo's Patch 5.0 issues is up. http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?62712-Unofficial-issue-list-Post-Patch-5-0

Atak Kat
15-04-2018, 05:57
This whole thing is a bit like a UFO encounter
Anyone who has experienced it, is pretty certain about it.
All the other people have all sorts of theoretical explanations, but none of them make any sense to the guy who experienced it.

I do believe I had an encounter yesterday. Qualifying vs Race the car was really very different. With no obvious reason or explanation I could figure out. Like in the range of 4 to 5 seconds per lap, and I struggled to keep the car on the road. The only way I could describe it is like the car had somehow started the race with soft tires that were old/used and overheated.

Yes, I always reload and check my setups.

blinkngone
15-04-2018, 06:16
This whole thing is a bit like a UFO encounter
Anyone who has experienced it, is pretty certain about it.
All the other people have all sorts of theoretical explanations, but none of them make any sense to the guy who experienced it.

I do believe I had an encounter yesterday. Qualifying vs Race the car was really very different. With no obvious reason or explanation I could figure out. Like in the range of 4 to 5 seconds per lap, and I struggled to keep the car on the road. The only way I could describe it is like the car had somehow started the race with soft tires that were old/used and overheated.

Yes, I always reload and check my setups.

See the post above. Asturbo just put it up and there are only 4 posts in the Patch 5.0 issues so go ahead and everyone needs to put this in there. http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?62712-Unofficial-issue-list-Post-Patch-5-0

blinkngone
15-04-2018, 06:20
I confirm there's defintitely an issue with setups and cars behaving totally different between race and practice.

I have the proof this is happening. I was streaming the last round of the AOR Endurance Season (which finished earlier for me because I got a total loss of drive, very strange), but the fact was I couldn't get any closer to my pace.

After having retired I wanted to see if I was driving so badly or if there was something and or no reason I was immediately 1 second faster and even 2 seconds faster at some point.

(I can't post the livestream as I'm still considered a new member on the pCars forums lol).

Hi TX3 StorM, Asturbo's Patch 5 issues list is up. You can put your information in now.http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?62712-Unofficial-issue-list-Post-Patch-5-0

DECATUR PLAYA
15-04-2018, 16:01
This whole thing is a bit like a UFO encounter
Anyone who has experienced it, is pretty certain about it.
All the other people have all sorts of theoretical explanations, but none of them make any sense to the guy who experienced it.

I do believe I had an encounter yesterday. Qualifying vs Race the car was really very different. With no obvious reason or explanation I could figure out. Like in the range of 4 to 5 seconds per lap, and I struggled to keep the car on the road. The only way I could describe it is like the car had somehow started the race with soft tires that were old/used and overheated.

Yes, I always reload and check my setups.

I acknowledge that something is definitely different between private/qualifying and race. I just dont know if its a bug or intended. 2 issues I have with it being a bug.

1) It is consistent in both single player races and multiplayer races. Im a multiplayer guy but some of the complaints are coming from single player guys to.

2) Some guys setups are working just fine while others are falling apart. The suprising thing here is that default setups are not handling good for some guys which could indicate a bug.

I struggled with some of my race setups during patch 4.0 and did a lot of work to resolve the issues and with patch 5.0 my setups feel pretty good but with 5.0 when I start working on a unfamiliar car the default or early small tweak setups dont feel so good. It just seems that getting the tires to work is a little harder. With all that said it could just be a bug.

ironik
16-04-2018, 23:33
EDIT: nevermind

CoproManiac
17-04-2018, 22:50
Ignore my previous post. The person from the first photo was kind enough to share the footage from the last 30 minutes of his race, and he did have a puddle at the busstop chicane.
I'm not sure why it was brought up on the AOR forums that he was driving around without a puddle at said location.
Now that I look at the photo I can even see the puddle. It's probably less visible due to graphics settings.

I should've reviewed it more thoroughly before I posted it here, I apologize.

Sentry87
18-04-2018, 01:06
Too late, many people think livetrack sync issues still exist because that post was linked to a half dozen times the past couple of days

CoproManiac
18-04-2018, 07:43
Too late, many people think livetrack sync issues still exist because that post was linked to a half dozen times the past couple of days

I'm not saying LiveTrack issues don't exist, I'm saying my previous was not accurate proof that it does exist.
There's still something going on which causes difference in handling between sessions.

I hope those posts will get updated with this new information.
If you come across one of those links, please notify them my claims were not correct, or notify me so I can tell it to them.

poirqc
18-04-2018, 16:48
You can easily delete the post if you think it's inacurate.

Alfisti
20-04-2018, 13:19
I had a lot of trouble with this game compared to PC1 but finally found a set up that worked for me, I was all happy and stuff but then the differences from practice/qualifying and the race were immense. I'd have all this grip then poof it's gone and spinning on EVERY corner. No idea what it was but in the end I had to shelve the game because of it.

DaneRix
26-04-2018, 07:38
I must agree. I could not explain it better myself.
I hear comments about tiers, pressure, heat etc. But this is much more then that. It feels like a glitch where the surface is not what it should be.

MaXyM
26-04-2018, 08:24
As I wrote in another thread, I suspect it has something to do with initial grip of track at race beginning. It's like it's completely clean, not rubbered. At the same time surface during Private Practice has more initial grip.
I came to this conclusion because of the fact, that at the end of longer races (ie 2h), I could do times closer to what achieved on Private Practice.

All those real-time changing conditions and factors (pressures, temps, amount of fuel, self-confidence/risk) adds lot of variability which might be using as excuse. For sure it makes harder to debug the problem especially without tools which could display values playing role in car behavior evaluation.
But it's too deterministic to be not obvious, that we are facing some issue. Unfortunately SMS decided to give us ahm ... silence... providing no single answer/information. I'm sure they know the answer (why shouldn't they). To me it's another (non-direct) proof confirming that it's an issue. Otherwise they would have been providing dozens scientific evidences to back up the PC2 cars behavior.

DaneRix
26-04-2018, 21:19
I know it sounds a bit off topic. But i have a GT920 wheel and its no news that there has been some issues with ffb in that wheel. Pre patch 5 the cars where undriveble in Q and race. Patch 5 did help a bit but its still bad. Im curious if firmware could be causing some of the issue?

Schnizz58
26-04-2018, 21:25
As I wrote in another thread, I suspect it has something to do with initial grip of track at race beginning. It's like it's completely clean, not rubbered. At the same time surface during Private Practice has more initial grip.
I came to this conclusion because of the fact, that at the end of longer races (ie 2h), I could do times closer to what achieved on Private Practice.

All those real-time changing conditions and factors (pressures, temps, amount of fuel, self-confidence/risk) adds lot of variability which might be using as excuse. For sure it makes harder to debug the problem especially without tools which could display values playing role in car behavior evaluation.
But it's too deterministic to be not obvious, that we are facing some issue. Unfortunately SMS decided to give us ahm ... silence... providing no single answer/information. I'm sure they know the answer (why shouldn't they). To me it's another (non-direct) proof confirming that it's an issue. Otherwise they would have been providing dozens scientific evidences to back up the PC2 cars behavior.

MaXyM, did you see this: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?62772-Grip-issues-bug-Super-Trofeo&p=1503132#post1503132

MaXyM
27-04-2018, 08:51
I always have feeling something is wrong with it. That simulation of some independent values is in fact not independent but scaled to something else.
But Mahjik confirmed it for XB1. I'm on PC.

In fact, in the past (I believe before patch3) I noticed difference in amount of water on the track depending on number of cars. I mean the more cars the more water. But I though it's a random occurrence rather than deterministic issue. Now I think it might be related to not drying best line under constant (light) rain. Simply while more cars should heat up the best line speeding up vaporization, this effect is reversed by more water generated by the game.

Mincepie10
17-05-2018, 11:25
I have tried to post about this issue several times and it's good to see a discussion going. I totally agree. I am 2 seconds faster in testing than qualifying and then a further 2 seconds down in the race. Braking points are obviously earlier in the race vs qualifying. If I try to brake at anywhere near the points I would in testing, I miss the corner totally. I drive conservatively in races, so I expect to be a bit slower. But practice at least, where mistakes are pretty cost-free, should be competitive with private testing times. Even putting aside the times, the car FEELS different. And always in a negative way. I guess its just something we have to live with. But it is galling that it doesn't seem to affect everyone the same way. I can be third in qualifying but 10th or lower in the race with much worse lap times than the guys I was even with in qualifying. Does it matter? Not really. But it is frustrating not to be able to replicate performance. And with limited set-up knowledge, I don't feel able to consistently adjust for the different handling.

Alfisti
18-05-2018, 15:26
MaXyM, did you see this: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?62772-Grip-issues-bug-Super-Trofeo&p=1503132#post1503132

This is an interesting post. I use PS4 not XB1 and i feel a big loss from qualy to race where grid size is effectively the same BUT the loss of grip he describes is 100% what i experience, biggest issue is coming out of corners and spinning then an overall sense of less grip but corner exit is chronic.

Glasnost
21-05-2018, 23:09
I've noticed the difference between private practice and online races since game release.
I race in a league every second Sunday I have a 90min or some times a 2.4hr race.
On my off weekend Iam usually practicing in private practice.
I'am ALWAYS 1-2 seconds quicker in private practice then the online race with the same setup and fuel loads and same track conditions.
Only a couple of my league buddies seem to notice.. maybe it's car related? As we run a mixed lmp2 and gt3 field.
Technically with live track it should be the opposite right? Slower in practice with one car lapping putting down rubber... in a race lobby with 25 guys circulating the track should get faster as it rubbers in??


I did have exception which was last race at
Daytona road course... a 2.4hr race set to x10 time progression and light rain x3 slots and 1 overcast slot. Race start at 16:00
I was in a gt3 for the first 90mins I was fine... matching most of my practice times... even in the noght period. after I pitted.. zero grip all of a sudden.. same conditions... on worn wet tyres i had better grip then fresh wet tyres.

Racing4Life
22-05-2018, 03:59
Tires are sometimes a pain, so I can concur with Glasnost.

Happened to me a couple of time at the Nordschleife. I had to pit because I ran out of fuel and changed tires, too. Back on track the car felt like a pile of crap, jumping from over- to understeering and backwards, though both pressure and temperature were within an optimum range. Somehow I survived one lap, or crashed, pitted again with the same strategy and the car felt exactly like it should afterwards.

Or another example. We had a race a couple of weeks ago at Zolder. We started with light rain, which stopped at a certain point and the track got dry step by step. Rain tires on a (partially) dry track always do the same thing: They're getting hot and need to be cooled. Well, sometimes the physics of pCARS2 decides to ignore the laws of physics, and wet tires cool down on a dry track.

254830

FYI, at lap #14 I've pitted and got a new set of slicks. The drop of temperature with those was completely ok, because the track had only around 19°C at this point and the track wasnt completely dry. During the rain period my tires were completely fine, and as soon as the rain stopped there must have been a new ice age starting.

Walter Westinghouse
24-05-2018, 20:42
You haven't experienced this phenomena, then you don't really understand what is going on. It becomes apparent from the moment you leave the pit lane, that something drastic has changed. Even at low speed, the car barely controllable, and your stable set up is now undriveable (though none of the set up settings have changed) and is now utterly useless. It has nothing to do with cold tires, processor speed, or AI. It's as if the track froze over. There should be a sign at the exit of pit lane that reads "chains required".

Cholton82
26-05-2018, 09:34
You haven't experienced this phenomena, then you don't really understand what is going on. It becomes apparent from the moment you leave the pit lane, that something drastic has changed. Even at low speed, the car barely controllable, and your stable set up is now undriveable (though none of the set up settings have changed) and is now utterly useless. It has nothing to do with cold tires, processor speed, or AI. It's as if the track froze over. There should be a sign at the exit of pit lane that reads "chains required".

Exactly this feeling in career mode at certain tracks during transitional weather , Silverstone and Daytona have been problematic in fact race ruining for me . Hope it’s going to get sorted soon as enough people have talked about it . I am certain it has nothing to do with setup and is either wet tyres not going on (although I visually can see they have ) or a live track problem.

Zaskarspants
27-05-2018, 11:54
The video below is the source of the times, recorded in one session. PQR with same time and conditions. I did this after I spent the previous day ( 4 hours) racing with this track car combination hoping that would make the results more consistent and representative. I used race pressures and set up throughout. Near default loose with only slight adjustments to brake pressure and fuel load / tyres / gears.

Private practice - 55.8 (edit added)

Practice - me - 55.8s. AI - 54.8 to 55.7

Qual - me - 55.3. AI - 54.4 to 55.4

Race - me - 54.9 AI - 54.2 to 55.6

I crashed out on lap seven in the race but I see no evidence from these results of vastly varying conditions or AI performance. The track felt the same to me with no unexpected variation.

PDQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRuoR5Nzz2w

Private practice set to same conditions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ItYs9XRlIs

panzerboy555
29-05-2018, 07:28
Is this going to be fixed?
It is ruining what I think is a real good game.

Maskmagog
29-05-2018, 08:11
I've experienced the issue before, but lately the game's been good to me. Done Ginetta jr career at Knockhill, Snetterton and Donington (practice and Q in rain), and everything has been fantastic. Even driving in rain was an absolute joy, no strange puddles even after 15 min, car was predictable (and fun!). These races are with just 11 AI though. I think the issues emerge with more AI drivers. I'll try to do some more tests.

Ofnir4
29-05-2018, 08:21
The video below is the source of the times, recorded in one session. PQR with same time and conditions. I did this after I spent the previous day ( 4 hours) racing with this track car combination hoping that would make the results more consistent and representative. I used race pressures and set up throughout. Near default loose with only slight adjustments to brake pressure and fuel load / tyres / gears.

Private practice - 55.8 (edit added)

Practice - me - 55.8s. AI - 54.8 to 55.7

Qual - me - 55.3. AI - 54.4 to 55.4

Race - me - 54.9 AI - 54.2 to 55.6

I crashed out on lap seven in the race but I see no evidence from these results of vastly varying conditions or AI performance. The track felt the same to me with no unexpected variation.

PDQ


Private practice set to same conditions.


Larger tracks are affected more than the ridiculously small Knockhill.
At le Mans I can lose up to 5 seconds a lap because of that issue, the tires don't seem to want to grip in the corners (feeling of understeer), don't want to handle brake pressure well (normal braking points will only get you in the sand traps) and if you are unlucky enough, you can experience total physics meltdown with the car wobbling around and spinning from no input. I also have that issue at Spa, but less noticeable, only a second off.

Glasnost
29-05-2018, 08:47
Is this going to be fixed?
It is ruining what I think is a real good game.

Well I it will be fixed. Unfortunately It seems alot of people are sceptical about the issue.

I've experienced exclusively in online multiplayer, whrn I get some time will screen shot my times in a single player practice session then my times in qualifying and the race.

I think the devs may ne having issues identifying the problem we are describing.

For me it's the fact that under the same conditions, weather, date, time, setup, fuel load I am 1-1.5 secondslower in an an online lobby then the offline practice session and the car (sometimes) drives and feels horrible.

We can only see if it will be fixed. Personally I think its a problem with livetrack 3.0

Zaskarspants
29-05-2018, 09:56
Larger tracks are affected more than the ridiculously small Knockhill.
At le Mans I can lose up to 5 seconds a lap because of that issue, the tires don't seem to want to grip in the corners (feeling of understeer), don't want to handle brake pressure well (normal braking points will only get you in the sand traps) and if you are unlucky enough, you can experience total physics meltdown with the car wobbling around and spinning from no input. I also have that issue at Spa, but less noticeable, only a second off.

One second difference is quite small and could be down to normal variation.
I will try PQR and PP on a longer track and post my results.

Ofnir4
29-05-2018, 11:16
No offense but I know when the setup I created is not loaded correctly, this is not normal variation, You have no idea how perfect my lap has to be to manage a 1:58 in a LMP1 at spa with the issue while I can cruise around and do a 1:57 in private practice.
Not to mention the fact that you are on an X, not a standard xbox, so there is a likely chance you are either less affected or not affected at all by that issue. Then there is the small matter of online vs offline races, for which the issue, if it's truly the same, is handled quite differently by the game. I don't really mind the offline aspect of it because AI can be adjusted, it's finicky but doable, online you are stuck with your garbage car while some have a perfectly functional one.

People I play with don't experience that issue, so even if you don't see any differences doesn't mean the issue isn't real.

Zaskarspants
29-05-2018, 11:30
No offense but I know when the setup I created is not loaded correctly, this is not normal variation, You have no idea how perfect my lap has to be to manage a 1:58 in a LMP1 at spa with the issue while I can cruise around and do a 1:57 in private practice.
Not to mention the fact that you are on an X, not a standard xbox, so there is a likely chance you are either less affected or not affected at all by that issue. Then there is the small matter of online vs offline races, for which the issue, if it's truly the same, is handled quite differently by the game. I don't really mind the offline aspect of it because AI can be adjusted, it's finicky but doable, online you are stuck with your garbage car while some have a perfectly functional one.

People I play with don't experience that issue, so even if you don't see any differences doesn't mean the issue isn't real.

I am making no claims other than that the results I carefully gathered with corroborating video evidence show no problem with set up loading and no variation in lap times across pqr and private practice when racing offline on an xbox x.

Ofnir4
29-05-2018, 11:39
I am making no claims other than that the results I carefully gathered with corroborating video evidence show no problem with set up loading and no variation in lap times across pqr and private practice when racing offline on an xbox x.

Alright then, that seems like a fair disclaimer.;)

hasslemoff
29-05-2018, 13:19
I am making no claims other than that the results I carefully gathered with corroborating video evidence show no problem with set up loading and no variation in lap times across pqr and private practice when racing offline on an xbox x.

Thanks for your time but the problem offline always seems to be with large grids of 32.

I thought I had been doing something wrong as the car was totally different with large grids offline once the race started.

My recent one was at Cota, 32 cars, multi class lmp1, lmp2 and gte, weather slots 1, light cloud, summer 1/6/2018, timed 2hours.
Ps4 standard.

I ran the corvette Gte stock loose setup, only change was fuel and used hard tyres.
Ran 2:03's to 2:04's steady pace in practice, car was predictable, didn't really quali wanted to start at the back but car felt the same as practice.

Start of race and the car is on ice, could not take T1 at any pace as the back end would slide out, this went on for a few laps until the grid spread out, then I could get back into low 2mins where I was running 2:08s to 2:10's the first few laps.
I'm going to get some more testing as on a ps4 standard it seems to be reproducible with large grids.

Ofnir4
29-05-2018, 13:29
Thanks for your time but the problem offline always seems to be with large grids of 32.

I thought I had been doing something wrong as the car was totally different with large grids offline once the race started.

My recent one was at Cota, 32 cars, multi class lmp1, lmp2 and gte, weather slots 1, light cloud, summer 1/6/2018, timed 2hours.
Ps4 standard.

I ran the corvette Gte stock loose setup, only change was fuel and used hard tyres.
Ran 2:03's to 2:04's steady pace in practice, car was predictable, didn't really quali wanted to start at the back but car felt the same as practice.

Start of race and the car is on ice, could not take T1 at any pace as the back end would slide out, this went on for a few laps until the grid spread out, then I could get back into low 2mins where I was running 2:08s to 2:10's the first few laps.
I'm going to get some more testing as on a ps4 standard it seems to be reproducible with large grids.

If you really want to drive 32 cars, you have to forget the hard tyres even exist and go for softs. At least on the OG Xbox over a certain number of cars, tyre behaviour goes dormant, they don't heat up properly, grip is good but the cars are stiff. (I the car you want to drive doesn't have multiple tyre compound, it will be undriveable) So you are better off with softs no matter the season and track temp. (they also have incredible durability)

I know it's not a solution, but at least you can work around it until it is eventually improved or fixed.

Zaskarspants
29-05-2018, 13:42
Thanks for your time but the problem offline always seems to be with large grids of 32.

I thought I had been doing something wrong as the car was totally different with large grids offline once the race started.

My recent one was at Cota, 32 cars, multi class lmp1, lmp2 and gte, weather slots 1, light cloud, summer 1/6/2018, timed 2hours.
Ps4 standard.

I ran the corvette Gte stock loose setup, only change was fuel and used hard tyres.
Ran 2:03's to 2:04's steady pace in practice, car was predictable, didn't really quali wanted to start at the back but car felt the same as practice.

Start of race and the car is on ice, could not take T1 at any pace as the back end would slide out, this went on for a few laps until the grid spread out, then I could get back into low 2mins where I was running 2:08s to 2:10's the first few laps.
I'm going to get some more testing as on a ps4 standard it seems to be reproducible with large grids.

Problems with large grids producing odd handling is a different issue and is generally thought to affect og xb badly with only occasional reports of ps4 / pro / xbx issues and also with pc if lower powered or big vr grids.

It would be useful if more people could make PQR PP comparison videos to shed more light on this but i suggest not using a full grid to avoid possible cross contamination of the results if both effects are occurring simultaneously.

I am yet to experience any of the extreme effects noted by the OP.

hasslemoff
29-05-2018, 15:29
If you really want to drive 32 cars, you have to forget the hard tyres even exist and go for softs. At least on the OG Xbox over a certain number of cars, tyre behaviour goes dormant, they don't heat up properly, grip is good but the cars are stiff. (I the car you want to drive doesn't have multiple tyre compound, it will be undriveable) So you are better off with softs no matter the season and track temp. (they also have incredible durability)

I know it's not a solution, but at least you can work around it until it is eventually improved or fixed.

Thanks for the tip with the softs, but the hard tyres keep there heat and pressures and after a few laps when the field is spread the handling goes to how it was in private and quali, so I just try and stay with the pack for the first few laps.
This is why I thought it was me not tuning and just running the stock tunes, but when I did tune the car for the start of a race I still got the same result in feeling.



Problems with large grids producing odd handling is a different issue and is generally thought to affect og xb badly with only occasional reports of ps4 / pro / xbx issues and also with pc if lower powered or big vr grids.

It would be useful if more people could make PQR PP comparison videos to shed more light on this but i suggest not using a full grid to avoid possible cross contamination of the results if both effects are occurring simultaneously.

I am yet to experience any of the extreme effects noted by the OP.

I dont see how the effect is different, the op asked why private and quali is different to race.
I gave an example of how it effects me and how im able to reproduce the effect (feeling of the car), ive suffered the same effect a couple of times with full online rooms in the few times ive raced online, i.e the car is pants.

panzerboy555
29-05-2018, 17:25
Problems with large grids producing odd handling is a different issue and is generally thought to affect og xb badly with only occasional reports of ps4 / pro / xbx issues and also with pc if lower powered or big vr grids.

It would be useful if more people could make PQR PP comparison videos to shed more light on this but i suggest not using a full grid to avoid possible cross contamination of the results if both effects are occurring simultaneously.

I am yet to experience any of the extreme effects noted by the OP.

I have saved my private testing on Monza video on Xbox but not done the qualifying test video yet,as soon as I figure out how to upload to youtube I will post on here.
Let me tell you my lap times were way down using the Nissan GTR on qualifying session with 20+ AI.

Atak Kat
29-05-2018, 18:04
Race 1
-Online, Catalunya, 911GT3, 27/04/17, 09:00, Overcast 2 clouds, 17C (I go by memory because I cannot tell in the replay), 10 laps, 16 cars
- leaders were consistently doing 1:48 - 1:49 lap times.
- immediately the car did not feel right, tires screeching every corner, and something was not feeling correct in terms of grip.
- ran most of the race alone. Not last place, but damn close.
- 1:50.9,1:51.5, 1:53.8, 1:52.0, 1:51.5, 1:50.8, 1:51.9, 1:50.8 were my clean lap times (no crashes, no traffic, etc)

Race 2
- Custom offline event, Catalunya, 911GT3, 27/04/17, 09:00, Overcast 2 clouds, 17C (I go by memory because I cannot tell in the replay), 8 laps, 26 cars
- I duplicated the on-line session as far as I understood, and put max AI on the grid. They were at 70%, and I was able to gain the lead within 2nd lap and ran the rest of the race at the front without any issue with other cars.
- car setup was identical to the on-line race.
- 1:49.4, 1:50.8, 1:49.2, 1:48.8, 1:49.6, 1:49.2 were my clean lap times.

That's about 2 to 3 seconds per lap difference. And the off-line race the car felt and behaved much better.

I did the 2 races back-to-back and am familiar with the track/car so there wasn't any learning that happened in race 2.

Maskmagog
30-05-2018, 11:14
What 3rd party telemetry programs would be best for capturing telemetry differences between Private testing and Race? If there's a distinct difference in grip, it should be possible to display it in hard facts. For example, driving half a lap behind AI rules out dirty air.
Personally, on OG Xbox, sometimes the car is a lot more loose and I feel less grip, but for me it could be issues with the underpowered xbox with larger grids.
Ian mentioned earlier in this thread about dirty air, marbles, particles etc affecting grip. It might be realistic. It might be overdone. It might be buggy. But if we can find more ways to test it as scientific as possible, the better. Nothing wrong with videos/lap times, I'm just looking for more options to investigate the issues.

Schnizz58
30-05-2018, 16:54
What 3rd party telemetry programs would be best for capturing telemetry differences between Private testing and Race? If there's a distinct difference in grip, it should be possible to display it in hard facts. For example, driving half a lap behind AI rules out dirty air.
Personally, on OG Xbox, sometimes the car is a lot more loose and I feel less grip, but for me it could be issues with the underpowered xbox with larger grids.
Ian mentioned earlier in this thread about dirty air, marbles, particles etc affecting grip. It might be realistic. It might be overdone. It might be buggy. But if we can find more ways to test it as scientific as possible, the better. Nothing wrong with videos/lap times, I'm just looking for more options to investigate the issues.

I had planned on using vrHive to do that and made a few attempts at it. The problem I ran into was that I couldn't go the same speed in a race that I could in private testing so it wasn't a good apples-to-apples comparison. The slip angles in the telemetry were pretty comparable even though the speeds were different. Also, Mahjik said that SMS were already aware of the issue: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?62772-Grip-issues-bug-Super-Trofeo&p=1503132#post1503132. So I figured it was a waste of time to try to acquire more data.

Maskmagog
30-05-2018, 19:46
Mahjik said that SMS were already aware of the issue:
Yes, the grid size issue on (mainly) Xbox 1. But I've seen plenty of comments about how the car feels different in Race sessions from all over the place, PC players too. There might be other issues in play as well.

Just saw the latest Insider's Guide with Yorkie065, very very interesting! Watch it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMdkxhRjoqs

Apparently there's a random element, 'seed', that sets the starting point within certain parameters, Seems like this could differ quite a lot, and maybe explain part of the issues people are experiencing. But the track is supposed to evolve over Practice, Quali to Race, so there shouldn't be less grip in race, as some have reported. That might be explained by the grid size issue for some. Something weird seems to happen when the game steps down to 400 Hz physics tick.

Atak Kat
31-05-2018, 04:56
Just saw the latest Insider's Guide with Yorkie065, very very interesting!

Apparently there's a random element, 'seed', that sets the starting point within certain parameters, Seems like this could differ quite a lot, and maybe explain part of the issues people are experiencing. But the track is supposed to evolve over Practice, Quali to Race, so there shouldn't be less grip in race, as some have reported. That might be explained by the grid size issue for some. Something weird seems to happen when the game steps down to 400 Hz physics tick.

That's really a fantastic video and helps me understand a lot. I thought the same when he explained the random 'seed'. But I still think something stinks:
- it seems very difficult to believe that lap times are impacted by several seconds. The dirt/marbles I understand can impact things. But the rubber should make it better. And we're talking about our lap times and grip getting worse, even when you stay on-line and are running good laps. So something doesn't make sense, still.
- it does not explain why I seem to be the one impacted so heavily, and no one else is. The lap times comparison (my previous post) illustrates this. To me, there is a random issue that occurs still when online. After a few hundred on-line races, I think we have an idea what to expect. And when this happens, it's pretty clear.

Sankyo
31-05-2018, 09:45
You haven't experienced this phenomena, then you don't really understand what is going on. It becomes apparent from the moment you leave the pit lane, that something drastic has changed. Even at low speed, the car barely controllable, and your stable set up is now undriveable (though none of the set up settings have changed) and is now utterly useless. It has nothing to do with cold tires, processor speed, or AI. It's as if the track froze over. There should be a sign at the exit of pit lane that reads "chains required".
Did you check in the Telemetry HUD if it showed anything obviously wrong, e.g. the wrong tyres on your car?

F1_Racer68
31-05-2018, 15:26
OK, so I just watched Yorkie's latest Insider's Guide


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMdkxhRjoqs&amp;t=1s

In that video he confirmed several key elements for me, regarding the fact that each room/new event will be slightly different. I'm OK with that. He also confirmed that track conditions carry from one session to the next, eg. Practice > Qualifying > Race (well, atleast they are SUPPOSED to), as I would expect them to.

The questions that I have are, has that been confirmed to be 100% working on online events, and how does Time Acceleration affect it?

Our main gripe/concern/issue is that for SOME drivers in a room when the events starts, the Practice session and Qualifying sessions are fine, however as soon as it goes to the Race session, for some of those drivers the track feels totally green (or worse). Has there been any investigation into what factors could cause that to occur, and why it only affects a few drivers in the session?

Could it be a netowrk latency issue?
Could it be a bug due to Time Acceleration?
What other factors could account for this? - This is key for us to try and find a work around/root cause. If we can identify what factors are most likely to cause it, then we could take action to alter our settings to try and alleviate it, and even help identify the root cause for SMS. Our problem right now is that we have no idea what settings to look at changing.

There has been some small consistency in the drivers that complain about it the most, but it has affected 90% of the league membership at one point or another. Some drivers are either just more sensitive to it, or more prone to experience it than others.

Also, I have no issues with how it works Offline. For me, the Offline works exactly as Yorkie described and explained. And that is how I would expect it to work. It's the Online world where things are not quite as they should be....

F1_Racer68
03-06-2018, 04:59
So we just did a test during this week's league race. Normally our races run with 2x Time Acceleration, and we almost always have at least 1 person complainign about the grip issues in the race session.

This race, we decided to try it with no Time Acceleration (used real time), and guess what. Everyone was happy with the grip level, and many reported seeing the track rubbering in for the first time ever in an online league race.

So it looks at this point like there might be a disconnect between LiveTrack and the Time Acceleration mechanism.

Atak Kat
03-06-2018, 06:31
Interesting!!!
Is there any way to tell if the lobby has time acceleration turned on before you join? I don't think so....

F1_Racer68
03-06-2018, 19:21
Just to add to my theory, we have a few members that almost ALWAYS complain about the issue. They also tend to be the ones with the highest latencies on average.

So I am starting to suspect that the combination of higher latency and time acceleration are causing LiveTrack to.somehow get out of sync for those drivers. It's only a theory, but it's the only logical explanaition I can come up with right now...

CoproManiac
03-06-2018, 19:55
Just to add to my theory, we have a few members that almost ALWAYS complain about the issue. They also tend to be the ones with the highest latencies on average.

So I am starting to suspect that the combination of higher latency and time acceleration are causing LiveTrack to.somehow get out of sync for those drivers. It's only a theory, but it's the only logical explanaition I can come up with right now...

I don't think latency is the problem, I have 10 ping and still have the issue from time to time. 100mbit up- and download connection.
Not saying it can't be related, just stating how it is in my case :)

Atak Kat
03-06-2018, 19:57
You are our only hope, Obi-Wan.....

F1_Racer68
03-06-2018, 20:32
I don't think latency is the problem, I have 10 ping and still have the issue from time to time. 100mbit up- and download connection.
Not saying it can't be related, just stating how it is in my case :)
Well, as usual, my theories get shot right out of the water within about 30 minutes :biggrin-new:

Glasnost
04-06-2018, 08:34
Just to add to my theory, we have a few members that almost ALWAYS complain about the issue. They also tend to be the ones with the highest latencies on average.

I know you're referring to me here F1!!!
Seriously though the difference between our accelerated lobbys and the real time lobby was crazy... I didn't expect it at all.

Grip levels were consitant with practice lobbys.
Grip improved over the course of the race also... which in my ten or so 90min and three 2.4hr races never felt before.
In fact it was the first time my lap times improved over the course of a race. In previous races grip seemed to be non-existent or got worse as the race went on. This time I could feel the grip improving on the track.

Visually I could see a racing line rubber in, i could also see dirty parts of the track. I could feel a loss of grip when I went off line.

While it's only one race and more testing needs to be done Iam confident that maybe the accelerated time could have something to do with the issue... maybe the accelerated time feature is causing livetrack to put the wrong grip levels out at the wrong time? I dunno.

It's a good step but we really need to do way more testing and confirm it.

F1_Racer68
04-06-2018, 10:52
I know you're referring to me here F1!!!
Seriously though the difference between our accelerated lobbys and the real time lobby was crazy... I didn't expect it at all.

Grip levels were consitant with practice lobbys.
Grip improved over the course of the race also... which in my ten or so 90min and three 2.4hr races never felt before.
In fact it was the first time my lap times improved over the course of a race. In previous races grip seemed to be non-existent or got worse as the race went on. This time I could feel the grip improving on the track.

Visually I could see a racing line rubber in, i could also see dirty parts of the track. I could feel a loss of grip when I went off line.

While it's only one race and more testing needs to be done Iam confident that maybe the accelerated time could have something to do with the issue... maybe the accelerated time feature is causing livetrack to put the wrong grip levels out at the wrong time? I dunno.

It's a good step but we really need to do way more testing and confirm it.

I try to "change the names to protect the innocent" :biggrin-new:

doc3d
11-06-2018, 20:55
I think you are on to something here. I never race online but have experienced this bug a few times. I think I posted in this very thread a while ago. It got so bad that I gave in and decided to wait for the next patch so I’ve been out for the last month or so.
It is very obvious when it happens, but it’s been hard to say why. I mostly run career and if you go with less than 100% race distance, I assume it will use accelerated time since the weather and time of day is fixed in career. So this can affect offline play as well as online. Clearly latency does not affect offline but maybe it makes it more severe?

Either way, since the patch I’ve ran a few races without accelerated time, and so far I’ve not experienced the bug so it’s looking pronmising that either the patch fixed the issue, or the 1x time does. Narrowing in on the possible cause is good either way

Schnizz58
11-06-2018, 21:10
I think you are on to something here. I never race online but have experienced this bug a few times. I think I posted in this very thread a while ago. It got so bad that I gave in and decided to wait for the next patch so I’ve been out for the last month or so.
It is very obvious when it happens, but it’s been hard to say why. I mostly run career and if you go with less than 100% race distance, I assume it will use accelerated time since the weather and time of day is fixed in career. So this can affect offline play as well as online. Clearly latency does not affect offline but maybe it makes it more severe?

Either way, since the patch I’ve ran a few races without accelerated time, and so far I’ve not experienced the bug so it’s looking pronmising that either the patch fixed the issue, or the 1x time does. Narrowing in on the possible cause is good either way

I always run career events at full length and always have a lack of grip with full grids on the Xbox. So the patch definitely didn't fix the problem.

Azufel02
21-06-2018, 12:33
So we just did a test during this week's league race. Normally our races run with 2x Time Acceleration, and we almost always have at least 1 person complainign about the grip issues in the race session.

This race, we decided to try it with no Time Acceleration (used real time), and guess what. Everyone was happy with the grip level, and many reported seeing the track rubbering in for the first time ever in an online league race.

Just to add a little something to the discussion, I've done quite some online races recently, and experienced the exact same issue people in the thread have.

Well after digging in the forum and finding your post, I would like to thank you very much for your tests (and obviously everyone who tried here). I can now create my lobby and making sure time progression is set to "real", and the issue seems to be solved. :)

F1_Racer68
21-06-2018, 14:58
So as promised, here is a follow up to our testing. As stated in this thread, a few posts back, we ran a test during our Sonoma race where all settings were set to REAL acceleration (Time, Tire, weather progression, etc.). That showed some early positive results.

Sonoma feedback is here: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?62349-Car-behaving-COMPLETELY-different-in-race-vs-private-testing&p=1514320&viewfull=1#post1514320

This past weekend was our next league race at CoTA.

For this race, we kept Time Acceleration to real, but increased tire wear back to Accelerated (2x). Weather progression was also set to REAL, and in fact we locked weather in to a single slot with clear to eliminate it as a factor.

It is important to keep in mind that there was a patch between the two tests that impacted the tire model, so that skews things a bit. Unfortunately, we did have comments from one of our guys that suffers the issue a lot, that it seemed to happen again. His exact words were..... "At COTA the track went back to its usual differences in the race for me. SONOMA is still the best race in terms of track feel and evolution on grip/rubbering in."

At this point, I'm suspecting network latency/LiveTrack sync issues more than any other "settings". The guys that have the most regular/consistent complaints are also the ones that tend to have the most latency to the server. Without knowing the details of how the LiveTrack data is synced to all drivers, it would make sense that higher latency might cause issues. The interesting part is that the issue ONLY presents itself in the RACE session. Practice and Qualifying sessions appear perfectly normal for those guys. It's actually because of the marked difference between the P/Q and R session that it is so noticeable to the drivers.

So now the question I have is, what happens differently underneath during the Race session vs the other sessions? does the way the LiveTrack data gets synced between drivers change between sessions? Is there some other mechanism at play here? Without understanding that, it's virtually impossible to pinpoint the cause.

We have made every effort to eliminate variables on our end, and will continue to test different settings to see if any one setting makes a significant difference. Our next race is on June 30th at Silverstone. We will again make one single change compared ot the Sonoma test and provide feedback on that after the race.

I would appreciate it if any other leagues that are experiencing this issue could assist in trying to pinpoint the root cause, or at least provide more data for SMS to investigate this thoroughly. At the moment, it is possibly the biggest single issue affecting online for us. It does cause the guys that suffer the issue a lot of frustration to see 2 weeks of tuning, testing and practice effort go out the window on the first lap because the track feels completely different to them, with an utter lack of grip. Since the issue is "unexpected" and manifests between Qualifying and Race, there is zero opportunity to prepare for it. At this point we do "expect" it, but it is still impossible to prepare for because one race it hits, the next race it doesn't.

I am certain that some level of this is attributable to network conditions, but I hope that SMS is able to make adjustments within the netcode to try and reduce or minimize the current situation, since it is not something that happens (to this extreme) in other platforms.

To be continued.....

Bealdor
21-06-2018, 16:20
Forwarded to the devs. Thanks for he detailed report.

ShneebnaMRR108
21-06-2018, 17:49
I can add some additional info from another league which runs Vintage cars. We notice in general that the larger the track the larger the difference in P/Q to Race. And to some extent the more visual detail of a track seems to slightly contribute also. Seems like the harder the CPU/GPU has to work the larger differences show up. I think we saw Nords+GP as the track with the most differences.

PC users may find that lowering the details in graphics helps with utilization levels, but XBoxOne users really are at a disadvantage, and if you have a 1X, then it's not as bad. We have a mixed group of 1X and One, so we do testing before actual races start to see what settings we can go with that work suitably for both 1 and 1X.

Hope this adds some info for SMS to consider in revising the net code in the future.

F1_Racer68
21-06-2018, 18:41
Forwarded to the devs. Thanks for he detailed report.

Thanks for that @Bealdor

Maskmagog
22-06-2018, 09:07
Nice testing, F1_Racer68. Just a thought: could you get an affected driver to take a screenshot of a braking zone? A 'green' track should look different to a rubbered in track, most notable in braking zones of course.

F1_Racer68
22-06-2018, 10:52
Nice testing, F1_Racer68. Just a thought: could you get an affected driver to take a screenshot of a braking zone? A 'green' track should look different to a rubbered in track, most notable in braking zones of course.

Oh that would be easy. It doesn't even need to be "an affected driver". Every single one of us will tell you that online the track never shows the rubbering in, drying line, or dirt to the same level you see it in an offline session. Add Time Acceleration onto it and it gets even more noticeable.

I think that has already been well documented in other threads. I'll definitely get screenshots though. Thanks.for that suggestion.

EDIT: I see you have Yorkie's LiveTrack videos.linked in your signature. A few of us have asked about the online issues in the comments.on those videos. Yorkie's answer makes some sense, but doesn't explain it all when you look at our league. We have 20+ cars per race on track for races lasting 90 and 144 minutes (1.5 and 2.4 hours). Even after 144 minutes we struggle to.see the rubbered in track. Our next race is a 90 minute event at Silverstone. I'll be sure to have some shots for that. I will also be able to post links to past race streams from several drivers if needed.

CoproManiac
22-06-2018, 11:30
There's barely any rubbering in that's actually visible. I made a video about this a while ago.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSRnNs3Inkc

2.4 Hours at Daytona Road, showing one of the first laps (small video, upper right), and one of the last laps (main video). I can barely spot any rubber build up even after 2.4 hours of driving.

pferreirag60
22-06-2018, 11:48
I donīt know if people have noticed, but even in offline mode, with races of 1 hour long, we really see the build up of rubber in the track, but somehow after a while(10 to 20min) the track starts clean, without me piting or weather change. It happens since the begin even now with the last patch, the rubber build up disapears after a while, to start again ?!

Maskmagog
22-06-2018, 12:26
Ok, sounds like LiveTrack is not working as intended online. I only race offline (yet) so I haven't experienced this. Seems like I missed the threads about this, sorry.
Still, screenshots/videos from different drivers could show if there's a difference, which might be helpful to developers. Do you record telemetry from races? Maybe there's something to be found there?

Keep up the thorough testing, hope this gets improved.

F1_Racer68
28-07-2018, 17:49
I need to apologize for the lack of further testing on our part. Our last few races have had other issues that have rendred any testing on this issue moot.

I.am hopeful that with the additional info provided here by others and the fact that Bealdor has made the devs aware, that they have been able to make some progress.

We'll try to.resume our testing tonight, but between the numbers being down due to the summer, and some other in game issues, the testing we have tried to do the last two races was invalidated (server restarts between qualy and race due to disconnects, etc.).

CoproManiac
07-08-2018, 10:36
Sorry, but 1.5 months without any word from the devs?

brezza
09-08-2018, 12:13
Quite silence here so just to add a little more of this....

Last night we had a race at Hockenheim (AOR league). I was preparing my car (setup) in my private lobby, and got around low 1:39 for qual and low 1:40 with full tank. I need to say we used real time in options for all events.
And....qual online started...had a bad feeling of the car, sliding in every corner, braking was also bad-slide slide.... had to brake earlier etc and hardly hardly got low 1:40 for qual. But it was very nice compared to race experience....I got only high 1:41 as a best time. Don't even mentioned other horrible timings.
Tyres were so damn cold-so driving was a fighting with the car all the race. It was the worst feeling of the car in this season-others are also bad but this was a disaster. So I hasd a VERY VERY DIFFERENT CAR FEELING&HANDLING at my private loby then in online qual, race....it is happening the whole season but last night was a worst case so far.

CoproManiac
10-08-2018, 07:52
Quite silence here so just to add a little more of this....

Last night we had a race at Hockenheim (AOR league). I was preparing my car (setup) in my private lobby, and got around low 1:39 for qual and low 1:40 with full tank. I need to say we used real time in options for all events.
And....qual online started...had a bad feeling of the car, sliding in every corner, braking was also bad-slide slide.... had to brake earlier etc and hardly hardly got low 1:40 for qual. But it was very nice compared to race experience....I got only high 1:41 as a best time. Don't even mentioned other horrible timings.
Tyres were so damn cold-so driving was a fighting with the car all the race. It was the worst feeling of the car in this season-others are also bad but this was a disaster. So I hasd a VERY VERY DIFFERENT CAR FEELING&HANDLING at my private loby then in online qual, race....it is happening the whole season but last night was a worst case so far.

I'm in AOR also, I hear multiple people complain about horrendous grip levels during race (other than me lol).
I know Yorkie mentioned there's a 'randomizer' in LiveTrack, but I don't think this is the issue for the cars skating on the track.
Just ask yourself, in practice, how many times do you have these horrible grip levels? For me, I never have horrible grip in practice.
Then the race comes, sometimes there's grip, sometimes there's no grip whatsoever and you can't brake normally, can't corner normally, can't get on the power normally. Laptimes are 1-2 seconds off, confidence has gone.

I don't think the randomizer in LiveTrack is the issue here, otherwise we would notice the same behavior in practice. We just have our fingers crossed and hope there's grip.
Also, it's always a couple of people who have no grip whilst others do have grip.

brezza
10-08-2018, 16:46
If its just grip, I have no grip CONSTANTLY!!!! Its just bad going to worst like at Hockenheim.
If I can run just one race with normal grip I had in my lobby for example!!!

Jezza819
10-08-2018, 18:56
Quite silence here so just to add a little more of this....

Last night we had a race at Hockenheim (AOR league). I was preparing my car (setup) in my private lobby, and got around low 1:39 for qual and low 1:40 with full tank. I need to say we used real time in options for all events.
And....qual online started...had a bad feeling of the car, sliding in every corner, braking was also bad-slide slide.... had to brake earlier etc and hardly hardly got low 1:40 for qual. But it was very nice compared to race experience....I got only high 1:41 as a best time. Don't even mentioned other horrible timings.
Tyres were so damn cold-so driving was a fighting with the car all the race. It was the worst feeling of the car in this season-others are also bad but this was a disaster. So I hasd a VERY VERY DIFFERENT CAR FEELING&HANDLING at my private loby then in online qual, race....it is happening the whole season but last night was a worst case so far.

I noticed this problem again a few nights ago. I haven't driven Formula A probably since before patch 4. Just couldn't control the car back then. But since Spa is the next Formula 1 race I thought I would give it another go with a stable tune and just adjust the tire pressures. Normally I never test. If I do it's probably a road car since I don't drive that class often.

Took the Formula A out on Spa and it felt very good. I could almost keep it planted through Pouhon and it was very stable through Blanchimont. So then I ran a race with it. Started 3rd and moved into 1st going down the Kemmel straight. The car felt very wiggly through the turns and had massive understeer. Through Pouhon the car pushed all the way to the right and get all 4 wheels off the track. Even with the bad handling I maintained about a 7 or 8 second gap the entire 10 lap race so race traffic didn't have any effect on the handling. It was just night and day different than when I did the testing. Race lap time was about 4 seconds slower than my best testing lap.

F1_Racer68
10-08-2018, 19:29
If its just grip, I have no grip CONSTANTLY!!!! Its just bad going to worst like at Hockenheim.
If I can run just one race with normal grip I had in my lobby for example!!!

It's not JUST a matter of grip. The LiveTrack visual effects also do not behave correctly in many races. Rarely do we see a true dry line form in the wet races and rarely, if ever, do we see dirt and rubber build up as we expect. This is all in Multiplayer races. In single player, offline, the track behaves as expected.

Our recent races have had lower attendance due to summer in the northern hemisphere and most of our members being in North America. In those races, the lack of grip has been less of an issue although the visuals still don't work right (smaller grid, so would expect less rubber/dirt, etc.). So definitely the online grid size does SEEM to factor into the issue to some extent.

kaseo88
16-08-2018, 08:09
Man i started thinking i was getting mad but glad to see this thread. Same problem here: private testing, nice setup, nice grip etc. Then SAME car, conditions on a single race, everything the same and the car grip behaves completely different, losing the rear almost without notice, the car even takes off when countersteering.

Suffered in several tracks and cars. The last one Le Mans Vintage and Gt40 MkIV. Any advice or trick for this?

Schnizz58
16-08-2018, 13:41
Any advice or trick for this?

Wait for a fix is all I know to do. The only other alternatives are buy an XBox1X or switch over to PC.

CoproManiac
16-08-2018, 13:50
Wait for a fix is all I know to do. The only other alternatives are buy an XBox1X or switch over to PC.

I'm on PC and it happens to a lot of other PC players. Probably something just not going correctly with the game itself.
There's no fix, just keep your fingers crossed and hope you get lucky.

Twinz
17-08-2018, 01:41
I just noticed this issue in the last couple [GT3] races. The difference between soft slicks (qual) and hard slicks (race) is too drastic lately. The car used to behave similarly on softs and hards with the primary difference being lower grip on hards. The last few races though, hards seem to make blending inputs frustrating.

Twinz
17-08-2018, 11:20
I just realized both of the races I had this issue in were implementing accelerated time.

Has anyone else noticed a link between accelerated weather/time and handling issues?

F1_Racer68
17-08-2018, 13:26
I just realized both of the races I had this issue in were implementing accelerated time.

Has anyone else noticed a link between accelerated weather/time and handling issues?

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?62349-Car-behaving-COMPLETELY-different-in-race-vs-private-testing&p=1521972&viewfull=1#post1521972

DECATUR PLAYA
17-08-2018, 20:19
I just realized both of the races I had this issue in were implementing accelerated time.

Has anyone else noticed a link between accelerated weather/time and handling issues?

I dont run accelerated time in my room exactly because of this. I could be wrong but when you accelerate the time progression you also speed up the heating and cooling of the track temp. A change of 10 - 20 degrees Fahrenheit can really throw the tires off and change the setup.

The tires are super sensitive to changes in track temp.

Twinz
01-09-2018, 15:10
Just finished a GT3/Monza in which the car handled similar to qualifying. The car was slower on hards, of course, but the balance was basically unchanged from the softs I ran in qualifying.

I hope we can get this to happen consistently.