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WellRED Barron
03-05-2018, 03:16
Where is it? I am genuinely curious and still haven’t found an answer. I don’t think immersion is broken, and I have learned the track better because it is missing since there are fewer visual cues to remind me to prepare for turns and whatnot... but I like many others I imagine, really dig it. It is just neat and I miss it.

Yes there is some graffiti just far less than I am accustomed to seeing in other scans in other, less enjoyable racing games. Anyone have insight as to why it isn’t there?

Sentry87
03-05-2018, 03:40
It's there.. unless removed during a patch. But, should be there

MrA2theK
03-05-2018, 12:06
Local bloody council probably :rolleyes:

Sankyo
03-05-2018, 13:08
Are you seeing no graffitti, or just not as much as you expected?

Daz555
03-05-2018, 13:46
It has graffiti and plenty of it is in the right place: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dElYfpS8kgM

I imagine new graffiti is added regularly though so no game is going to be able to keep up with that.

Invincible
03-05-2018, 13:55
It has graffiti and plenty of it is in the right place: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dElYfpS8kgM

I imagine new graffiti is added regularly though so no game is going to be able to keep up with that.

Also nearly every year parts of the track are re-surfaced, so if also could have been that parts of the track were blank when reference shots were taken.

WellRED Barron
03-05-2018, 18:24
Are you seeing no graffitti, or just not as much as you expected?
I see some, and I have wondered if SMS got a scan right after the track was resurfaced or something, but for The Ring, it is nowhere near the amount I expect or am familiar with from other scans of the track. Perhaps 2% of what I am accustomed to. And anyone with more than one racer with that track on it knows what I mean... which I assume is almost every single person who comments on these boards.

My eyes don’t lie.

I am not looking for a fight or to trash PC2, it has no impact on driving or what really matters most, it is just a question I have that still lacks an answer. As I said before, I am genuinely curious, I like the graffiti, and I miss it but it does not break the game. I wonder if there is a solid answer. Was it a new surface? Was it hard to implement with the graphics engine used? Any other reason?

g.stew
03-05-2018, 18:26
What visual fx mode are you running in? I notice a lot of differences on that track between enhanced visual and enhanced resolution/framerate. It could be that it doesn't show up in the latter two.

WellRED Barron
03-05-2018, 18:38
All, but usually Enhanced Resolution or Enhanced Visual.

I just edited a video together of PC2 Nordschleife replay hilights and then popped on Forza 7... and then Assetto Corsa. The difference in the amount of graffiti is IMMEDIATELY noticeable. Since it is my favorite ribbon of track on Earth, and I appreciate the living nature of racetracks, my first assumption is SMS scanned the track after a big resurfacing of the track. But I figure someone here might know better than I...

That said, the massive amount of graffiti on the walls and/or side rails seems to be there to an impressive degree.

WellRED Barron
03-05-2018, 19:19
I wonder if other games exaggerate the amount of graffiti, or schedule their scans for right before the track is cleaned/resurfaced.

God knows paint can be slicker than snot, and it is probably important to keep it under control to help folks test and get the best lap times.

The video comparison linked above does provide evidence that the Green Hell doesn’t always have as much graffiti as I am accustomed to seeing in other games.

Wonder if it is a track thing, a seasonal thing, or a SMS thing.

VelvetTorpedo
03-05-2018, 19:31
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJI7aP0FBfg

WellRED Barron
03-05-2018, 20:08
I wonder if people struggle to grasp the simple concept that I see graffiti on the track, but far, far less than I am accustomed to seeing in other scans of the same track.

I wonder this because they keep posting links to graffiti on the PC2 track. I know it has graffiti. That has never been my issue.

The difference in the amount of graffiti on the PC2 version of the track is vast when compared to other contemporary scans of the same track for other racers. The difference is undeniably vast unless your eyes don’t work, in which case, you probably don’t race anyway.

Go ahead and look at the inferior racers like Assetto Corsa or Forza 7’s Nordschleife graffiti and compare it to the PC2 video you just shared, have an, “Aha!” moment, and get back to me. If you compare PC2 to PC2, of course the graffiti will be identical every time you run a comparison, and I have never claimed there is NO graffiti in PC2, just far, far less than in other versions of the same track. You dig?

Mad Al
03-05-2018, 20:32
This has been raised before (a simple forum search for graffiti would have helped you).. PC2 has less OTT graffiti than some other sims. Now we have admitted that.. can we move on to important things... ?

g.stew
03-05-2018, 20:33
Hey man, people are just answering your question. Your post started with "Nordschleife Graffiti? Where is it?". The first link came before you clarified that you were seeing some, but not as much as other games. You can add an edit to your first post to make it clear you wanted more of a discussion about why there isn't as much as other games. I'm interested that discussion too*. There's no need to insult people for responding though.

I don't really have any answers and haven't seen anything else about this. I also wonder whether the level of graffiti is different from pc to console which could tell us if it was tied to graphics capabilities or was just a design decision.

* I also wouldn't mind seeing more graffiti videos set to 90's g-funk beats either.

Stewy32
03-05-2018, 20:37
I think they just scanned it at a time when their was less graffiti.Also,if any of it was offensive/inappropriate SMS may have removed it whereas other games might not have.

WellRED Barron
03-05-2018, 20:39
This has been raised before (a simple forum search for graffiti would have helped you).. PC2 has less OTT graffiti than some other sims. Now we have admitted that.. can we move on to important things... ?
I have searched. I believe I insinuated as much in my first post, but thanks. Since you claim to have one, and I sure couldn’t find it, a link would be greatly appreciated... especially after the assumption that I hadn’t tried to find the answer myself already. My question has never been, “Is there less graffiti in PC2 than other racers?”, as the answer to that question is self evident. My primary question has always been, “WHY is there less graffiti in PC2 than in other racers?”

A fairly benign question if you ask me. It likely has a benign answer too like, “Because that is what the track looked like when we scanned it.”

Let’s try to quell the unnecessary defensiveness. I’m beyond fanatical in my love for this game, I’m just getting slightly annoyed a page and a half into this thread, by people clearly thinking my question was more critical than I ever intended when I asked, including your quoted post above which also, assumed I was not clever enough to search before asking, and literally accused my question of being unimportant. Thanks for that... I imagine such dismissive treatment would annoy you too, so I hope you understand my point.

Perhaps change the forum name to Important Discussion and prescreen topics for importance before allowing them to be posted for public perusal if you wish to avoid such generalized PC2 discussion in the General Discussion Forum in the future... especially if you wish to complain about the general importance of questions asked in various threads posted within whilst failing to answer them and, mocking the value of the question(s) that are being asked in the first place. Food for thought.

I patiently await an answer, and hope someone eventually answers or links to an answer to the question I have been looking to have answered since before I started this discussion yesterday. Thanks in advance.

ps What does OTT mean?

WellRED Barron
03-05-2018, 22:48
Hey man, people are just answering your question. Your post started with "Nordschleife Graffiti? Where is it?". The first link came before you clarified that you were seeing some, but not as much as other games. You can add an edit to your first post to make it clear you wanted more of a discussion about why there isn't as much as other games. I'm interested that discussion too*. There's no need to insult people for responding though.

I don't really have any answers and haven't seen anything else about this. I also wonder whether the level of graffiti is different from pc to console which could tell us if it was tied to graphics capabilities or was just a design decision.

* I also wouldn't mind seeing more graffiti videos set to 90's g-funk beats either.

While I am inclined to agree with your suspicions that people stopped reading at the thread title, I did my best to summarize the topic of my thread for the title, assuming people would then read my far more detailed post before answering. “Why is there less graffiti on Nordschleife in PC2 than in other contemporary racing games with their own scanned versions of the track?” seemed a bit excessive for a thread title.

Who have I personally insulted? I take such accusations seriously and would love to fix any such offense if I had done such a thing, but since we have established people’s difficulties in reading my posts when they could just stop at thread titles, I am skeptical that I did in fact insult anyone. Certainly not overtly. Don’t mistake my frustration over folks claiming time and again that PC2 has Nord graffiti as a personal insult. “You suck” is an insult. “My eyes work just fine, thanks.” is a snarky retort.

Also, PC3 should only have a 90’s g-funk soundtrack. Anyone claiming otherwise is wrong!

Also, also, I’m not a man. Perhaps us chicks fanboy incorrectly because that ritual has always struck us as odd, and if I fail to slip through the cracks, gamers tend to circle their defensive wagons around their favorite intellectual property instead of answering what I think are simple, innocent questions. I submit this very thread as evidence. ;)

Azure Flare
03-05-2018, 23:48
Don't they get rid of the graffiti when VLN races there?

WellRED Barron
04-05-2018, 00:05
I too am wondering if they remove paint annually, and if so, how they do it.

If you have ever hit the gas in the rain while on the painted crosswalk, you’d know what paint does to kill grip, literally keeping the tire from the pavement. It has always seemed like a safety issue to let the graffiti build up excessively.

The YouTube video linked on the first page showed Nordschleife in a VERY similar condition to PC2 when it comes to the amount of graffiti. So I am pretty sure it is an accurate representation of The Ring’s total amount of graffiti at least sometimes...

g.stew
04-05-2018, 00:15
While I am inclined to agree with your suspicions that people stopped reading at the thread title, I did my best to summarize the topic of my thread for the title, assuming people would then read my far more detailed post before answering. “Why is there less graffiti on Nordschleife in PC2 than in other contemporary racing games with their own scanned versions of the track?” seemed a bit excessive for a thread title.

Who have I personally insulted? I take such accusations seriously and would love to fix any such offense if I had done such a thing, but since we have established people’s difficulties in reading my posts when they could just stop at thread titles, I am skeptical that I did in fact insult anyone. Certainly not overtly. Don’t mistake my frustration over folks claiming time and again that PC2 has Nord graffiti as a personal insult. “You suck” is an insult. “My eyes work just fine, thanks.” is a snarky retort.

Also, PC3 should only have a 90’s g-funk soundtrack. Anyone claiming otherwise is wrong!

Also, also, I’m not a man. Perhaps us chicks fanboy incorrectly because that ritual has always struck us as odd, and if I fail to slip through the cracks, gamers tend to circle their defensive wagons around their favorite intellectual property instead of answering what I think are simple, innocent questions. I submit this very thread as evidence. ;)

I probably misunderstood the wondering of whether "people struggle to grasp the simple concept" as an insult, implying that they were stupid. I can imagine a context where that was said jokingly, so I apologize for the inference.

Also, sorry, I took a chance with Barron (or Baron) normally being a masculine title, but really I meant it more as a figure of speech to set a "can't we all just get along" tone to what I was going to say. I should have known better.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand. I'm thinking maybe they went the smart route with this design choice. If they included more graffiti, they'd probably get people complaining about pieces that aren't there anymore. It also seems like the way most game engines handle graffiti these days is almost like a skin over the environment. I've seen the same thing in PC2 that I've seen in the Division (which has really great graffiti) where pieces can flicker on and off from certain angles. I don't think the graffiti actually contributes to the live track surface in PC2 so maybe using less of it was a design choice to prevent covering up things that actually affect the live track, like dirt pulled on to the track or the marbles.

I'd never really stopped to look at it before until I did that community event where you had to drive a kart through there. All of a sudden I was noticing all these neat details that you don't always pick up on at faster speeds.

WellRED Barron
04-05-2018, 00:37
No problem. My username is my gamertag, Barron is my last name. I’m usually happy to play male or keep it quiet in game forums (and online) because guys can be weird around female gamers... but the sim crowd is pretty chill, and I figured I was failing the fanboy ritual which is what usually outs me. Seriously guys, the fanboy thing is weird.

I digress...

I don’t think less graffiti is exactly a smart route, as it is intrinsically part of the Nordschleife experience, but I never considered that the track may be painted and cleaned over and over again without laying new tarmac... so I am beginning to think it has less paint on the average day than previous driving games had me believe.

In which case... imagine if the graffiti increased or decreased depending on the day/month/season you selected to drive the track. That’d take some serious development time and resources, but I (and perhaps nobody else) would eat it up!

Invincible
04-05-2018, 06:36
Don't they get rid of the graffiti when VLN races there?

Only if they are painted with a paint roller and in a braking zone or fast corners. Sprayed ones with rather thin lines doesn't bother them because they don't reduce grip as much when it is wet.

And I agree, there could be more graffiti on the track in Pcars2 and I really don't know exactly why there isn't some more.

Sankyo
04-05-2018, 07:36
The graffiti changes all the time on the Nords, the current representation in the game happens to have less than the real Ring possibly had on other times.

WellRED Barron
04-05-2018, 07:49
The graffiti changes all the time on the Nords, the current representation in the game happens to have less than the real Ring possibly had on other times.

Thank you.

So, this was an accurate graffiti scan at the time?

Maskmagog
04-05-2018, 10:58
I've read that this particular scan was bought from the group owning the circuit, and that it's probably the same scan that a lot of other games use. This from the thread where a German driver claimed that PC2 Nordschleife was inaccurate compared to other games. Which used the same scan..

But other games may well have added more graffiti. I certainly wouldn't mind more graffiti in PC2.

Invincible
04-05-2018, 11:16
I don't think the scan data includes the graffiti, because it is just a point cloud where surface colours aren't captured.

WellRED Barron
04-05-2018, 18:21
I don't think the scan data includes the graffiti, because it is just a point cloud where surface colours aren't captured.

I have assumed this too.

TopAirspace
05-05-2018, 07:35
It would be a job for the art team I'm assuming, and they're likely busy with DLC car models and additional Circuits currently.

Pekka Salminen
05-05-2018, 08:22
IIRC iRacing copy-pastes some of the graffiti, and creates only the most remarkable and large graffitis based on real life. Perhaps Pcars has only the most popular & large graffitis, but the smaller ones aren't done in copy-paste fashion -> less graffiti appears.
Or it has been visually "scanned" when a big part of the graffitis are missing due to repavements, as speculated in other posts.

Hugo Catarino
06-05-2018, 22:09
who cares about the graffiti?give us pit's at the nords,why on earth this is not included?

WellRED Barron
07-05-2018, 00:42
Pits would be long overdue. I have also grown fond of the tourist route from other games. Historic recreation of the old classic South loop?

AND more graffiti. Never give up on more graffiti. We’re allowed to wish for all the things. Mine don’t have to get bumped for yours.

I’m happy to wish for an unreasonable amount of things. God knows I have put enough hours in already on that track.

Hugo Catarino
07-05-2018, 19:56
Pits would be long overdue. I have also grown fond of the tourist route from other games. Historic recreation of the old classic South loop?

AND more graffiti. Never give up on more graffiti. Weíre allowed to wish for all the things. Mine donít have to get bumped for yours.

Iím happy to wish for an unreasonable amount of things. God knows I have put enough hours in already on that track.

i totally agree with a classical version.we have too many historical cars that raced there for not having it in a track.We need the south loop to recreate classic f1 races and the 1000km nurburgring.Hell,we have a car (porsche 908/3) specifically made for that race.

The closest thing we have to the classic nurb is the nordschleife version,because the combined is too long.That's why it's so important to have pits at the nords.The group C cars ran there,it makes 0 sense to not have pits.Thats why i think the pits are much more important than the graffitis,but obviously thats just my opinion.
In fact,i prefer it without the graffiti,much more actually!it gives it a more vintage look.Sorry but i wish they will never add them ;)

Schnizz58
07-05-2018, 21:22
In the Driver61 track guide, Scott had a good laugh when they stopped the video right in front of a penis drawn on the tarmac. I'm sure SMS couldn't include that particular graffiti due to the PEGI 3 rating. :D

ETA: Scott, not Nigel.