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Kunal_Racedriver
14-05-2018, 06:52
Anyone else feeling Pagani BC in Pcars 2 too unstable and dull compared to the one in Pcars 2 ? Assuming that Pcars 2 has better physics and realistic tire models, I tried hard to like this car but it appears dull in comparison to what I enjoy massively in Pcars 1(Very Good) and Assetto corsa(excellent). In earlier versions the car was twitchy when you know you pushed it hard, but in Pcars 2... the bloody thing doesn't want to drive straight even on a warm up lap. Actually I feel similar to other cars as well. Historic F1 cars, group C were raw and excellent in Pcars1. Not the same excitement in this version.

I hate the concept of ice skating sims where rear end spinning easily is directly assumed to be realistic. I believe this was the foundation of Project cars franchise in general. Cars are usually not that hard to drive but only when pushed to the limits. In project cars 1 ...I was able to feel that raw grunt of cars immediately and enjoy the moment when over the limits. Project cars 2 appears to gone overboard with its complexity and while sliding and drifting is cracked well in Pcars 2, it unnecessarily has influenced all categories. Sense of speed and rawness appears to be muffled. Suggesting that every default setup is garbage and can be tuned to find that happy normal is frustrating in itself.

I like all sims and different ways they approach to get a common goal. One can get used to a type if sticks to it long enough. But I am not finding this exaggerated over steer / catch up any fun than earlier version. I used to call Assetto corsa as an understeer simulator but it has been polished to what it is after gradual updates during a wide span of changes. I feel irrelevant even requesting so as this title has already been approved and tested by professionals. But I hope some minor tweaks and evolution is manageable if more people thinks so.

Pekka Salminen
14-05-2018, 09:20
I haven't tried the car, but maybe trying out different tires might help? If it is fitted with semi-slicks or some kind of track tires by default, the car will be slippery when the tires are cold. Road tires should work better when cold. Or try time trial, it gives you warm tires from the start. Hope this helps.

Leper Messiah
14-05-2018, 09:24
It's not that default setups are garbage, it's the fact that a setup will work for one drivers style but be garbage for another driver. I've not got round to trying the car in question yet though, but it sounds similar to my experience with the Mclaren P1. In PC1 it didn't feel like a hypercar, too stable....in PC2 you HAVE to be careful on the throttle and brakes. This IMO *is* more realistic, I rode 600cc supersport bikes for over a decade and with about 400hp per tonne (over 100hp and weighing less that 250kg) I had to be careful with the throttle. God only knows how careful you have to be in a hypercar!! Also don't make the flaw of comparing a game to a game. You prefer the handling in PC1 and AC but cannot make an assumption on "realism" from that.

Also I'd add that "race cars" with bags of grip are usually referred to as being easier to drive than in many sim games, the BC albeit track focussed is not a full on race car...should be more "lively" than a race car, especially at or near the limits. Then again my opinion is subjective as much as yours until we've both driven the Huarya BC in reality (I wish!!).

with all that in mind I'm off for a looksy at it in game and will report on how many times I do or do not hit the walls at Long Beach!

cluck
14-05-2018, 09:45
It might be worth trying the OEM setup, since it's a roadcar. That's a lot more lively :)

Most of it will be done to the tyres. The loose and stable setups are more 'track' oriented, so will be on track rubber, whereas the OEM setup will be closer to the factory-feel, with road tyres. It's a lot of the reason, for example, the Ford Mustang 2+2 feels so docile in 'loose' setup - stick that on 'OEM' and you'll find yourself running 60s tyres and wheelspinning through 1st and 2nd gears out of the pitbox with the pit-limiter engaged :D

Leper Messiah
14-05-2018, 10:22
Right I managed a 1.23.341 stable setup in private test session mode at Long Beach. WR is 1.22 something so I was in the ball park. Car felt fine, Didn't floor it in 1st or second, in 3rd I could start to boot it if careful. Feathered throttle in the corners and made sure car was as straight as possible before accelerating hard. Because I had the stable setup I had more issues with understeer and braking (no assists, needed that ABS I think!), especially into T1 (so many lock ups and intimate liaisons with the tyre barrier!). Didn't try "loose" as I don't like a wayward rear. Pretty much what I felt with the McL P1 differences in the 2 games.

Kunal_Racedriver
14-05-2018, 11:22
Steering centered, tires green and with all the TC, ABS and SC on this multi million dollar car... and you can't open throttle even at 4th/5th gear on a straight without spinning. I understand so much power requires delicacy but I found it hard to imagine that any production car of such behavior being sold and driven on public roads. It will be such a life threat on every moment :D. Not realistic in any sense. Various sims and preferences apart... my main gripe is that default PC2 version appears basically undrivable for such a technologically advanced car. All other Road A cars behave logical and in control.

I tried stable, loose and OEM with not much differences finally to find that there was 0/0 Front/Back downforce in all the setups. It has to be some kind of mistake on my end. I raised the downforce values in the middle and things seem ok now :eagerness:
Consider this issue SOLVED
Are you guys having 0 values for your default setups as well? Must be real good of you doing great time with 0 downforce otherwise

cluck
14-05-2018, 11:30
Are you guys having 0 values for your default setups as well?Just checked. Yep, 0F 0R on all 3 by default.

Glad to see you found a solution that makes the car driveable for you again :)

Kunal_Racedriver
14-05-2018, 11:58
It is driveable now but nowhere as controllable and still the weakest of all in the Road A category. Rest all have much better control and comparatively easier to put a good lap.
Have you guys tried other variants of this car in Pcars1 and AC? If so...what are your thoughts? They do feel better IMO. Considering SMS have shipped it with defaults 0/0, maybe it was left unfinished and demands some work/update to be made better and close to what it should be. I'm ok if it is how it should be and is the real behaviour of this car. But I had this as one of my favorites after PC1/AC and feels a bit disappointed to find the car I though was a jewel is an average IRL.

demand34
14-05-2018, 12:33
It is driveable now but nowhere as controllable and still the weakest of all in the Road A category. Rest all have much better control and comparatively easier to put a good lap.
Have you guys tried other variants of this car in Pcars1 and AC? If so...what are your thoughts? They do feel better IMO. Considering SMS have shipped it with defaults 0/0, maybe it was left unfinished and demands some work/update to be made better and close to what it should be. I'm ok if it is how it should be and is the real behaviour of this car. But I had this as one of my favorites after PC1/AC and feels a bit disappointed to find the car I though was a jewel is an average IRL.I find this car one of the easiest to drive in the Road A category actually, no asissts. Also, and fortunately patch 5.0 didn't screw the road tires just as it did with slicks, so you can continue to have the same good experience on road cars and hypercars specially than before, so we should be even grateful I guess xD.

Make sure your hot pressures in both rear and front tire stay at around 2'10-2'40 BAR. Decrease engine braking (increase the number). Both unstabble and OEM behave properly fine.

The trick with hypercars, specially if you use no assists like me is using very high preload settings. It's like the case with the McLaren 720, which most folks, usually GT car ladies unable to drive anything that is not a gt3 label it (and the rest of hypercars) as undrivable or deathtraps. What you have to do with these cars, and same with the Pagani if you use no assists and unstabble setups, is increasing preload to values or80 or 100 or so (the 720 has a preload value of 20 lol), and then to make sure too that hot tire pressures are around 2'10-2'40. Make sure that your acceleration diffs are pretty open too, as well as the coast ramp values. Turn off Viscous in all of them, specially in the 720, but in the Porche Spyder. In this one leave it on.

If you are using Trofeo softs then I'd recommend you sliding around as little as possible, as well as using unstable setups. If you're using the Corsa Mediums, then unstable might continue to be the way to go fast with this car, and you will be able to drift around way harder, but you will lose the extra grips Trophy softs will grant you in high speed corners.

Use hards only for either drifting sessions or heavy rain to thunderstorm conditions.

Kunal_Racedriver
14-05-2018, 12:46
Thanks a lot demand34 for all these tips. Actually I drive with authentic assists but will sure try the tips you gave. Can you explain why preload gets importance/ or not while using assists/no assists. I mean the car do have heavy electronics and ABS IRL. I am also left in mist when we talk about setup values but without any relation to what change it will actually do and feel while driving.


But as you can see... it is a lot of setting off from defaults for a no engineer type guy. SMS SHOULD/COULD provide balanced default values that makes a car derivable. After all they know the best of all. Setup artists then can take their magic to tune it to be faster than average as per their likes. Not a big fan of the idea of tinkering a lot just to get a car working.

cluck
14-05-2018, 12:50
The OEM setup should be exactly the same setup as the factory car is shipped with, including a close match on the tyres, so SMS have provided a balanced default setup, something as close to 'factory spec' as you could hope for :).

Sankyo
14-05-2018, 13:16
... fortunately patch 5.0 didn't screw the road tires just as it did with slicks,
Haven't we established by now that nothing was 'screwed' w.r.t. the slicks?

demand34
14-05-2018, 13:19
^You and some others have definitely tried. But just that, tried.

edit:

@_Kunal: No problemo bro. Waiting for your report and impressions when you try it again :)
The importance of going for "high" preload on Hypercars is all about not losing control the moment you go off throttle in preparation for taking a corner regardless it's a high speed one or not. This is most noticeable in the 720, because of its laughably low preload value of 20. This is why the ladies usually label the car as undrivable, among other things of course not just because of their inability for proper hypercar tuning.

And no you don't need to play around with the diff on hypercars too much just like you need with GT cars, in these last ones where you need to find the perfect balance between locked and open specially in power ramp. Just go big angles like 80 or so with power, 50 or so with coast, and remember to disable the viscuous in all of them but the Porche.

The hot pressures of 2'10-2'40 bar in these cars in all wheels, front and rear, will be critical too for your success at taming these lovely ultimate machines.


But as you can see... it is a lot of setting off from defaults for a no engineer type guy. SMS SHOULD/COULD provide balanced default values that makes a car derivable. After all they know the best of all. Setup artists then can take their magic to tune it to be faster than average as per their likes. Not a big fan of the idea of tinkering a lot just to get a car working.Totally agree with you, and more after 5.0

Kunal_Racedriver
14-05-2018, 13:38
The OEM setup should be exactly the same setup as the factory car is shipped with, including a close match on the tyres, so SMS have provided a balanced default setup, something as close to 'factory spec' as you could hope for :).

0/0 downforce straight out of factory? :sour: Customers must be signing some kind of health deed before a purchase:D

demand34
14-05-2018, 13:55
0/0 downforce straight out of factory? :sour: Customers must be signing some kind of health deed before a purchase:DYou will do fine with 0/0 in that car don't worry. The car is drivable enough with that downforce setting. If you increase it a bit then you will no longer be competitive against the others but the Porche, but only once this last runs out of kers.

Have you also played around with diff settings a little further by disabling the geared diff on these cars?, in the Pagani has a very good effect like in the 720 too. On the Porche it hasn't : - D

cpcdem
14-05-2018, 14:02
I gave it a test, it looks more or less ok to me. Yeah, you cannot floor it in 2nd/3rd gear without being prepared to counter steer, but it's a 800hp monster, I imagine also in real life people do not drive it with pedal to the medal accelerating out of corners in 2nd gear. It is challenging, but it's a Road A car, I guess it makes sense to be challenging.

A few questions:

- Are you using all assists? TC, ABS and SC? Without them, it is indeed a lot more difficult to handle it, but that is to be expected.
- Are you using -pthreads 4 in your PCARS2 launch options in steam? If not, give it a try, for me it fixed the very weird behavior with the GT3 slicks, maybe it affects those cars as well.
- Are you sure you are testing with tires up to temperature?

cluck
14-05-2018, 14:43
0/0 downforce straight out of factory? :sour: Customers must be signing some kind of health deed before a purchase:DThe wing settings in game are not related to hard numbers (ie, "0 wing" is not zero wing), they are levels of wing. As such, 0 will be the minimum wing angle that the wing is configurable to :)


EDIT : Same principle applies to things like the radiator and brake ducts. 0% does not mean they are fully closed (necessarily) just that they are at the minimum possible opening for that vehicle.

demand34
14-05-2018, 14:48
- Are you using all assists? TC, ABS and SC? Without them, it is indeed a lot more difficult to handle it, but that is to be expected.You can drive them without assists perfectly fine. Actually they become the most fun cars to drive available if you do so due to obvious reason. All you need to do, apart from being good at the throttle and counter-steering, is following the tips I gave to him, and you will feel like old good Chris Harris on Cars : - D


Are you using -pthreads 4 in your PCARS2 launch options in steam? If not, give it a try, for me it fixed the very weird behavior with the GT3 slicks, maybe it affects those cars as well.It does nothing to fix the weird behaviour with slicks. Road Car tires remain the same with or without that command line, just like the new slicks. In other words road tires continue to work properly in 5.0.

I think the ptthread line made some sense in pc1, and helped those with good cpus to spread the load more efficiently when playing the game. I have tried it enough in pc2 to come to the conclusion that it has no effect at all, at least on my processor.

cpcdem
14-05-2018, 15:01
It does nothing to fix the weird behaviour with slicks. Road Car tires remain the same with or without that command line, just like the new slicks. In other words road tires continue to work properly in 5.0.


This is your personal experience, but for me it made a big difference. It's very possibly hardware related how much -pthreads 4 makes a difference or not.

demand34
14-05-2018, 15:09
It's very possibly hardware related how much -pthreads 4 makes a difference or not.It just spreads tire physics computation more efficiently on two extra threads as long as you have them. It doesn't do much in pc2 as opposed to what it did in pc1 anyway regardless you have them available or not, believe me.

What's your cpu?

cpcdem
14-05-2018, 16:05
It just spreads tire physics computation more efficiently on two extra threads as long as you have them. It doesn't do much in pc2 as opposed to what it did in pc1 anyway regardless you have them available or not, believe me.

What's your cpu?

Believe you, based on what? You have access to the code of the game? Or do you have access to my PC so you can see if it makes a difference or not? I'm on an i5-4460 @ 3.2 GHz.

demand34
14-05-2018, 16:31
Worry not. I couldn't care less

Kunal_Racedriver
14-05-2018, 19:23
Chill dudes :p
I do use real assists and useful or not... I also use that pthreads and skip crowds in steam commands.
Of all the discussion, nobody actually shared if they have tried other BC variants from PC1 and AC and what they find lacking them in aspects making PC2 feel better. Your personal like/dislike and why. I obviously preferred to race and have more fun with the much stable on-throttle types as I've been crying along. I tried spa time trial and lapped ~2.5 sec off WR. I will eventually get used to what it is but preferred otherwise.

demand34
14-05-2018, 20:15
The car (all street cars actually) handle way better imho when compared to its pc1 counterpart, simply because of the unquestionable absolutele overwhelming superiority of pc2 tire model over its predecessor. The Huayra is no exception to this rule.

However, and I do agree, in pc2 you need ot be very careful with the tuning, specially on these cars. I've given you best tips I've been able to find out by myself in order to handle hypercars just as beastly as we all (well, given others benefit of the doubt lol) can do with the lesser cars, and project cars 2 street tire model has helped me achieve the feeling of satisfaction with road cars, specially with hypercas I was imagining since the first day I saw the trailers before I purchased the game. No other "sim" can, let alone assetto and its absolute joke of street tire model it features.

Follow the steps I gave to you. Disable all assists; load unstable setup; apply the changes I suggested on diffs, tyres and springs if necessary too, and find your limit onboard this awesome machines, thanks to the awesome street tire model we've been given in pc2. These cars are your ultimate challenge, and only through taming them you will find out how good of a driver you actually are, and when you do, then there's no coming back to GT racing.

Control that throttle!; watch that counter-steering while flooring it!; become one with these ultimate machines!; Burn out those tires yeaahh!!!

Project Cars 2 has so much beyond GT cars and spa and monza and all that stuff, that it's been so sad to me to see how the people has missed how good street car racing on it actually is, and not only that, even despise the amazing weather we have had too. If I were a dev after all the hard work it took me to create such amazing weather system..., that would be a hard blow to me.

The next time you report about your improvements on the Pagani, I want you to tell me that you can drive that car with blinded eyes, got it? : - D

Until those rear tires mark 140C and you can no longer take any corner! GO!!

cpcdem
14-05-2018, 23:55
Chill dudes :p
I do use real assists and useful or not... I also use that pthreads and skip crowds in steam commands.
Of all the discussion, nobody actually shared if they have tried other BC variants from PC1 and AC and what they find lacking them in aspects making PC2 feel better. Your personal like/dislike and why. I obviously preferred to race and have more fun with the much stable on-throttle types as I've been crying along. I tried spa time trial and lapped ~2.5 sec off WR. I will eventually get used to what it is but preferred otherwise.

OK, I just tried it in PC1 and AC and now I understand exactly what you're talking about!

Yeah, in PC1 and in AC the car is extremely understeery, while it is the exact opposite in PC2, no wonder it caused you a shock, it just did to me as well! :) I didn't check further in PC1, but I noticed that in AC the TC setting for this car is max ("1"), and when I changed it to to a higher value (less intrusive TC), then the car started becoming a lot livelier and at "4" I was losing it very easily, more than I do in PC2. Then I tried setting TC in the car in PC2 in similar levels (I put it to 0.02) and now it also behaved very similarly to the other games. Still not the same, but quite similar. Which one of them is more "correct" it is impossible to say for obvious reasons :).

No need to go to the setup screen to try it yourself, just open the ICM and adjust TC from it to a value 0.01 to 0.03 and see what it feels like to you.

Kunal_Racedriver
15-05-2018, 10:13
Thanks a lot everybody.
@cpcdm ... thank you for putting that common sense in me. I just raised TC to 35% over default loose setup and went on top of time trials in Spa with authentic assists. Not many great ones have posted time but still the car felt good and is behaving as I expected.

@demand34... I tried your tips with no assists. Although I am losing too much time while braking, the overall turning and balance felt way better. I am sure with some of these tweaks will make me gain some time even if I use real assists. I assume preload has something to do with suspension. Right? And why is so many values in differential. Viscous locks, Spool and so on. All I know is differential system basically has to do with variation of turning speed for inside/outside tires. Now we can either make it locked/open/in between. The explanations can be better I think for a not engineer :confused:.

I sparingly enjoy gt3 online. So much on setups. I agree with having more fun with road cars, group categories. Moreover most of the lobbies are running full assists. The thing I like about AC in contrast is how mostly we are forced with factory assists. Makes a level ground for all the drivers at basic level. I just saw a very nice video by viperconcept clearly showcasing some setup values and their direct result.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djwaD2pcGGI&t=2s
I can understand this.

demand34
15-05-2018, 11:01
The preload in an built-in locking effect of the diff. It kicks in the moment you go off throttle, making your car more stable as you turn in while decelerating. The effect of preload was somewhat nerfed on GT cars, but still pretty noticeable on factory, so you can still take advantage of it when it comes to the most powerful cars.

You have to end up driving these cars without assists. That's your next challenge man (leave GT cars for the ladies). You will eventually tame and fly with them, you'll see. If anytime they get to your nerves because you have a bad day when controlling the throttle, give the LaFerrari a go for a couple of laps until you get in a good mood again, for then return to the hard ones like the 720 or the Porche or the Pagani

Kunal_Racedriver
15-05-2018, 12:25
TC help says the amount of slip allowed. This does mean higher value...less assist allowed and lower values cut power at lower wheel slip to provide more assist.

Means when I raised TC from default 10% to 35%, the car felt better with less traction control? Bloody hell. More confusion. That's why no assists session felt more in balance through corners. Why the hell these setup values means inverted results.

cluck
15-05-2018, 12:42
TC help says the amount of slip allowed. This does mean higher value...less assist allowed and lower values cut power at lower wheel slip to provide more assist.

Means when I raised TC from default 10% to 35%, the car felt better with less traction control? Bloody hell. More confusion. That's why no assists session felt more in balance through corners. Why the hell these setup values means inverted results.The TC setting is the amount of slip the tyres will have, not the amount of TC applied. Ergo, the lower the value, the less 'slip' and the earlier the TC kicks in to cut power to the wheels. It's exactly the same system as used in the now-discontinued RaceLogic traction control systems (also as fitted to the Gumpert Apollo) :)

UkHardcore23
15-05-2018, 12:54
Thanks a lot everybody.
@cpcdm ... thank you for putting that common sense in me. I just raised TC to 35% over default loose setup and went on top of time trials in Spa with authentic assists. Not many great ones have posted time but still the car felt good and is behaving as I expected.

@demand34... I tried your tips with no assists. Although I am losing too much time while braking, the overall turning and balance felt way better. I am sure with some of these tweaks will make me gain some time even if I use real assists. I assume preload has something to do with suspension. Right? And why is so many values in differential. Viscous locks, Spool and so on. All I know is differential system basically has to do with variation of turning speed for inside/outside tires. Now we can either make it locked/open/in between. The explanations can be better I think for a not engineer :confused:.

I sparingly enjoy gt3 online. So much on setups. I agree with having more fun with road cars, group categories. Moreover most of the lobbies are running full assists. The thing I like about AC in contrast is how mostly we are forced with factory assists. Makes a level ground for all the drivers at basic level. I just saw a very nice video by viperconcept clearly showcasing some setup values and their direct result.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djwaD2pcGGI&t=2s
I can understand this.

God dam the lighting in AC looks incredible in that video. Is that standard PC or been modded?