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View Full Version : has GrpA (and all other classes not GT3) been BoP'd?



Javaniceday
17-05-2018, 18:14
As we all know, the GT3 class has gotten extensive work in making sure the class is nice and even and competitive. People still complain, but me, personally, feel its really well balanced. The BoP for the class is quite good.

One thing to consider though, and perhaps its appropriate, GT3 is BoP'd in real life. So I wonder, for the classes that perhaps weren't BoP'd in real life, are they BoP'd in the game? Should they be? (Yes, yes they should, imo)

Take Group A for instance. I love the class, the cars are super fun, but I have the distinct feeling that the cars are quite far apart in performance. I feel the original 3 (the beemer, the merc and the ford) despite behaving so so differently from each other, balance out their attributes well. Beemer = underpower but handles amazing. Ford = insane power and engine but is a handful to drive. Merc = nice compromise.

But the two DLC's in the class, the Audi and Nissan, well they handle well AND they're really powerful. The smoke the rest of the class, don't they?

I'd love to read people's thoughts, as well as the idea on BoPing every class. Do we know if all the classes are BoP'd, even if they weren't in real life? I think they should be.

What do you guys think?

rich1e I
17-05-2018, 18:35
I wanted to do some testing in this class some time ago but instead I tested GT3s. I remember someone here on the forums said that the Nissan destroys everything in this class. Will do some testing I think, I'm a bit fed up with GT3s at the moment tbf.

Smoked_Cheddar
17-05-2018, 19:17
The question should be, do we even want them BoP?

These older classes LMP900, GT1, GrpA, B, and C for that matter are historic, and while some have cars that are better than others, I'd rather them preserve their historic attributes than go for a BoP and create cars that don't exist. We know many sanctioning bodies BoP GT3 and the other modern classes, so that is fair.

NOW, that said, I think Pcars could try to open up the use of an air restrictor for players to try to balance the lineups themselves in multiplayer. Because if they're leagues this is something a sanctioning body would try to do.

simsimsheree
17-05-2018, 19:34
The idea is, the BoP is an option...

No, of course you don't want to nerf the original power when driving just for the impression that you are driving the original car. But the truth is, that car, during its racing days, would have been racing cars with a close BoP that may not necessarily be in the game. If a full field of cars from the exact same year and FIA regs can't be put together in the game, some mechanism to BoP the groups were ARE allowed to race so that they aren't simply a collection of cars with no intention to race (at least all of them) is needed.

Truth is, you have to go one of three ways if you want to race all the cars:

Either have so many cars that there is an inherent BoP simply due to sheer numbers. Obviously not an option with this few cars.
Allow all cars regardless of group to be selected to race against, so players can use a chart of lap times to put together a full, diverse field that are nominally equivalent.
Or provide a switchable BoP, so that all cars from the same group have close lap times.

I realize that no BoP system is 100% perfect unless done on a per track basis, but it strikes me that's by far the easier option for SMS to enact.

Renoldo1990
17-05-2018, 20:04
We have a Group-A-League in our forum.

They use the following settings for BoP, after a lot of BoP-Testing:

Nissan: Turbo-Charge - 60%
Ford: Turbo-Charge - 55%
Audi: Air-Restrictor 35,10
Mercedes & BMW: No restrictions

simsimsheree
17-05-2018, 20:36
Obviously, in leagues, yes, you can set it (but how do you scrutinize, when there's no way to look at an opponent's settings?), but the simpler solution is SMS setting a standard BoP that can't be adjusted...

It is how GranTurismo does it, these days...

Smoked_Cheddar
17-05-2018, 20:54
We have a Group-A-League in our forum.

They use the following settings for BoP, after a lot of BoP-Testing:

Nissan: Turbo-Charge - 60%
Ford: Turbo-Charge - 55%
Audi: Air-Restrictor 35,10
Mercedes & BMW: No restrictions

How do you enforce those restrictions? By the honor system? Just curious.

Javaniceday
17-05-2018, 21:26
The question should be, do we even want them BoP?

These older classes LMP900, GT1, GrpA, B, and C for that matter are historic, and while some have cars that are better than others, I'd rather them preserve their historic attributes than go for a BoP and create cars that don't exist. We know many sanctioning bodies BoP GT3 and the other modern classes, so that is fair.

NOW, that said, I think Pcars could try to open up the use of an air restrictor for players to try to balance the lineups themselves in multiplayer. Because if they're leagues this is something a sanctioning body would try to do.

I hear ya, but yea, like the other posters are saying, it's needed for league racing. And it should be an option you can turn off. It won't be perfect, on every track, in every condition, but it would be something, wouldn't you say?

But it does sound like then the GrpA cars are not BoP'd. SMS....can you.... give us the option?

Javaniceday
17-05-2018, 21:31
Obviously, in leagues, yes, you can set it (but how do you scrutinize, when there's no way to look at an opponent's settings?), but the simpler solution is SMS setting a standard BoP that can't be adjusted...

It is how GranTurismo does it, these days...

That'd be awesome. Like, in the lobby settings, there can be an option BoP = on or off.

If its off, the cars come as they are, as they were.

If its on, the cars come as we want them to be.... for league race purposes.

As a friend, and a known enemy. With restrictor plates, or turbos restricted up to a certain amount, or weight ballasts.

MaximusN
17-05-2018, 21:39
That'd be awesome. Like, in the lobby settings, there can be an option BoP = on or off.

If its off, the cars come as they are, as they were.

If its on, the cars come as we want them to be.... for league race purposes.

As a friend, and a known enemy. With restrictor plates, or turbos restricted up to a certain amount, or weight ballasts.
Got a certain song in your head? ;)

But I agree. The Nissan is overpowered in Gr.A, but I want the option to run it's natural self. If there's only the BOP'ed version it would turn me off from driving it. And in BOp races I would never choose it because of that, but that's fine.

TexasTyme214
18-05-2018, 02:58
I would like to see the cars behave as reality over a single lap, but I'm okay with inflated fuel consumption or reduced engine reliability to improve balance for the cars over longer races. For example, increasing fuel consumption further reducing engine life in the Sauber Mercedes or Nissan GTP could give the Porsche, Jaguar, and Nissan R89 a better chance in races without nerfing the faster cars into the ground.

Sloskimo
18-05-2018, 03:47
How do you enforce those restrictions? By the honor system? Just curious.

It would be nice if SMS included restrictor and boost in the http api, under participants, then it would become (relatively) easy to enforce without anyone having to run an external app or anything like that.

Would work on a dedicated server only, but it would be something.

matias918
18-05-2018, 22:05
We have a Group-A-League in our forum.

They use the following settings for BoP, after a lot of BoP-Testing:

Nissan: Turbo-Charge - 60%
Ford: Turbo-Charge - 55%
Audi: Air-Restrictor 35,10
Mercedes & BMW: No restrictions

renoldo im interested on this , how do you enforce the Bop. theres any way to apply by server side?

Sloskimo
19-05-2018, 02:21
renoldo im interested on this , how do you enforce the Bop. theres any way to apply by server side?

As far as I know, there is no way currently (not without everybody running some sort of external app.) Setting it server side would require extensive code changes I would imagine. However, if SMS included just the restrictor and boost fields in the http api, it would not be too hard to write something in your programming language of choice that reads these values and if out of bounds, notify via chat or kick the “offender” in that case.

Setting it server side would be preferable, but I do not see it happening. However, including these values in the http api, who knows? Seeing how it currently already provides wiper state, rpm, etc, I’d imagine passing the info to the DS and adding these two fields in the JSON output would not be a mammoth task. But what do I know?

To be clear, not trying to demand anything, but if this happened, it would make me very happy and I’m sure I would not be alone. It would open up many possibilities, especially in a league racing scenario.

One can always hope, you could also use this to slow down aliens in a league, 25% less boost for you next race! ;)

dodge33cymru
19-05-2018, 09:51
Main class that I'm disappointed about is GTE, which is BoPped in real life but not in the game. I'm aware it's due to different years' cars being in game, but it does seem a bit daft how much slower some cars are than others here.

I wouldn't complain at a bit of BoPing in other classes, but I'm not sure If want it. I would like the ability to remove cars and select a grid though, so I can remove that pesky Jaguar from the Vintage GTA and the GTP Nissan from Group C.

Stewy32
19-05-2018, 10:21
I personally would prefer no cars being BoPed.Even if the Audi dominates LMP900,the Toyota dominates LMP1 for now,it would still be closer to IRL.

Personally,my main priority would be having the Marek and RWD cars slowed though for both classes.aBased on Le Mams times I would want the LMP1s 5s slower to create a privateer class and the LMP2s 2s slower so the IRL cars are at the front.Also,in IRL the ORECA should be quite a bit slower than the Ligier,since the ORECA was quite draggy.

Tar Heel
20-05-2018, 20:59
I personally would prefer no cars being BoPed.Even if the Audi dominates LMP900,the Toyota dominates LMP1 for now,it would still be closer to IRL.

Personally,my main priority would be having the Marek and RWD cars slowed though for both classes.aBased on Le Mams times I would want the LMP1s 5s slower to create a privateer class and the LMP2s 2s slower so the IRL cars are at the front.Also,in IRL the ORECA should be quite a bit slower than the Ligier,since the ORECA was quite draggy.

Isn't it already like that for the P2 class? I always see the Marek and RWD cars qualifying behind the Ligier when I do races with them.

Pekka Salminen
21-05-2018, 18:14
Main class that I'm disappointed about is GTE, which is BoPped in real life but not in the game. I'm aware it's due to different years' cars being in game, but it does seem a bit daft how much slower some cars are than others here.

I wouldn't complain at a bit of BoPing in other classes, but I'm not sure If want it. I would like the ability to remove cars and select a grid though, so I can remove that pesky Jaguar from the Vintage GTA and the GTP Nissan from Group C.

What is the issue with GTE, I thought it is among the most balanced classes at the moment. The Aston might be a little harder to drive and setup than others, but there should not be OP car in my understanding. And even the Aston have been competitive in some leagues as far as I know.

Smoked_Cheddar
21-05-2018, 18:18
What is the issue with GTE, I thought it is among the most balanced classes at the moment. The Aston might be a little harder to drive and setup than others, but there should not be OP car in my understanding. And even the Aston have been competitive in some leagues as far as I know.

I've never heard any outright complaints of any faster car in GTE, I may need to run some more races to find out for sure though. I was running watkins glen, and the corvette was a second faster than me, and everyone else. Must have just been an AI thing, I'm terrible in the Corvette.

Javaniceday
21-05-2018, 22:25
Are we sure GTE's not bop'd? I thought it was. I ran a league with GTE not too long ago, it seemed okay...

Anyone know if GT4 is bop'd?

gp2112
22-05-2018, 03:02
As we all know, the GT3 class has gotten extensive work in making sure the class is nice and even and competitive. People still complain, but me, personally, feel its really well balanced. The BoP for the class is quite good.

One thing to consider though, and perhaps its appropriate, GT3 is BoP'd in real life. So I wonder, for the classes that perhaps weren't BoP'd in real life, are they BoP'd in the game? Should they be? (Yes, yes they should, imo)

Take Group A for instance. I love the class, the cars are super fun, but I have the distinct feeling that the cars are quite far apart in performance. I feel the original 3 (the beemer, the merc and the ford) despite behaving so so differently from each other, balance out their attributes well. Beemer = underpower but handles amazing. Ford = insane power and engine but is a handful to drive. Merc = nice compromise.

But the two DLC's in the class, the Audi and Nissan, well they handle well AND they're really powerful. The smoke the rest of the class, don't they?

I'd love to read people's thoughts, as well as the idea on BoPing every class. Do we know if all the classes are BoP'd, even if they weren't in real life? I think they should be.

What do you guys think?

I don't think Gp. A cars and the like were under any BoP rules. The Audi only raced in Europe, ( I did not even know Audi had a Gp. A car until I started sim racing), and the Nissan was eventually banned in Australia because it was too damn fast. I do not believe the Nissan ever raced in the states. I am sure someone can correct me if I am wrong.

It used to be that you run what you brung and if the other guy was faster then tough, go out and find more speed. Gp. 5 was the same way.

BoP seems to be a more recent thing.

Javaniceday
22-05-2018, 20:54
I don't think Gp. A cars and the like were under any BoP rules. The Audi only raced in Europe, ( I did not even know Audi had a Gp. A car until I started sim racing), and the Nissan was eventually banned in Australia because it was too damn fast. I do not believe the Nissan ever raced in the states. I am sure someone can correct me if I am wrong.

It used to be that you run what you brung and if the other guy was faster then tough, go out and find more speed. Gp. 5 was the same way.

BoP seems to be a more recent thing.

So, is it your opinion that the game should follow this reality strictly in all circumstances? Or for the sake of it being fun, for league play, so we can use all cars in a certain class ('cuz having all sorts of cars with different attributes makes things interesting) should we have the ability to bop the car classes?

I'm of the opinion that its important. Fighting games make sure to balance out all their characters to give people option to choose different play styles, while still having the peace of mind that yes, whatever character you choose, you'll have a chance to win, and it's up to your skill, and not the character.

I think this is important for racing games too. As an option. Add ballas, close radiators, lower boost pressure. That oughta be enough, I think.

Sessionerror
23-05-2018, 06:22
renoldo im interested on this , how do you enforce the Bop. theres any way to apply by server side?

Since I'm a member of the same community: Unfortunately, there's no way to enforce the BoP - but we know each other pretty well in our community, so it's simply based on trust. Nothing you can do in an open lobby, of course.

simsimsheree
23-05-2018, 07:18
I get the feeling some here are thinking BoP is a permanent alteration of the original car. Even in real life, the BoP adjustments are done by either restrictor plates, ballast, or in some cases (for endurance racing), a change in fuel tank size or fuel flow. But the original car is still under all that. You can take the plates off, remove the ballast, put the original tank back in...

That's kind of what we are suggesting. The car can be driven in it's OEM state. But if a host wanted closer racing in some of the Groups that have wildly different cars, it ought to be possible to have an option to add the restrictor, ballast or fuel tank change for the room.

This way, the 'buy a faster car' crowd could still do that (mind you, in this game, that ends up with most driving the same car because you can't go and buy a faster car or install a bigger turbo or do car upgrades in this game!) and pretend they are still back in racing's 'the guy with the most money wins' days, and those that are more interested in racing rather than doing parade laps in a car with 100hp more than the rest of the field can actually race!